and america says russia may have launched a satellite into orbit — which is capable of attacking other satellites. hello. let's just bring news and reaction to our main story, the news that ireland, norway and spain will recognise a palestinian state. we have had reaction to that from a spokesperson from the palestinian authority, and its rival hamas. it says that they welcome the recognition by ireland, spain and norway. so to statements there i understand, both palestinian authority and its rival hamas, welcoming the recognition. as we were reporting earlier, we have heard from israel's foreign minister, israel katz, who said the decision was "a distorted step that could endanger the country's

security". we will have more on that later myanmar is a country in the grip of a war largely forgotten, by the outside world. and today we have a special report from the frontline. rebel forces there are fighting an intense battle against the military regime. in the past seven months, a country—wide insurgency has made gains conquering large swathes of territory. the fighters, among them a group known as kndf, are now presenting the myanmar military with the biggest threat to its rule in years. press freedom in the country is restricted, hundreds ofjournalists have beenjailed, and getting into myanmar to report first hand is tough. but a bbc team has managed. our correspondent quentin sommerville spent a month with the rebels at theirjungle bases and on the frontline. a revolution is rising across myanmar. hidden from the world by its remoteness.

few countries are more isolated, few conflicts more unseen. we spent a month with the insurgents on back roads and jungle tracks in karenni state, where they are winning against the army. they've driven the military out of most of their territory. but main roads are mined and we're still in range of army warplanes. so we have to take the long way around. a steep opposition hilltop above one of the last four military bases remaining in the state. the sniper — can they see us from here? yeah, sniper can see. sniper... sniper men can see here.

the insurgents come with a message, a chance to surrender for the soldiers in the base below. start firing to me. and mortar bombing. we can't start yet. we already prepare our loudspeaker. but we still, no problem, we'll start soon. this man defected to the resistance after 12 years with the army. he says he speaks the soldiers�* language. for now, they don't appear to be listening. ceasefire! ceasefire, please. translation: i do not wish to fight against you because i think - of you as my brothers. i'm fighting against the system. we have surrounded you. this is your last chance. all of your lives will be spared. i will not let you die.

few of these... we are interrupting that report here on bbc news because we want to take you to the post office inquiry into the horizon it scandal. it is a key date today in the inquiry because the former chief executive, paula vennells, who was actually in the job from 2012—2019 will be giving evidence shortly. we can see images of her arriving at the inquiry in central london a little bit earlier on today. it is the first time that she is going to be speaking publicly about her role in the scandal for almost a decade. an awful lot of interest, as you can imagine, as to what she will be saying. my colleague is at the inquiry with some of the postmasters. this colleague is at the inquiry with some of the postmasters. this is the moment the — some of the postmasters. this is the moment the victims _ some of the postmasters. this is the moment the victims have _ some of the postmasters. this is the moment the victims have been - some of the postmasters. this is the i moment the victims have been waiting for. it is the first time paula

vennells has been speaking publicly about the scandal in nearly a decade. she is going to be grilled about it. over the course of three days as the inquiry tries to understand what she knew and when. because postmasters, former subpostmasters, allege a cover that prolongs the scandal, something that the post office has consistently denied. because it is going to start very soon and i know that the guest i have with me is going to want to be in the room as soon as she can, i want to bring her in. thank you so much for coming and speaking to us amidst all of this. i know you have been really public about the fact that this has taken so long. could you first remind us of what you went through. in you first remind us of what you went throu~h. :: ::j~ you first remind us of what you went throu~h. :: iif~ .,, you first remind us of what you went throu~h. :: ::j~ . ., through. in 2008, i was charged with a theft charge — through. in 2008, i was charged with a theft charge and _ through. in 2008, i was charged with a theft charge and false _ through. in 2008, i was charged with a theft charge and false accounting. i a theft charge and false accounting. i pleaded _ a theft charge and false accounting. i pleaded guilty for the fuss accounting but not for the theft charge — accounting but not for the theft charge. why should i? 15 months imprisonment. and

charge. why should i? 15 months imprisonment.— charge. why should i? 15 months imrisonment. �* , ., imprisonment. and you were pregnant when ou imprisonment. and you were pregnant when you receive _ imprisonment. and you were pregnant when you receive that _ imprisonment. and you were pregnant when you receive that sentence. - imprisonment. and you were pregnant when you receive that sentence. this i when you receive that sentence. this has notjust when you receive that sentence. this has not just affected when you receive that sentence. this has notjust affected you, it has affected your family as well. i was sent to prison _ affected your family as well. i was sent to prison for _ affected your family as well. i was sent to prison for a _ affected your family as well. i was sent to prison for a crime - affected your family as well. i was sent to prison for a crime i - affected your family as well. i was sent to prison for a crime i never. sent to prison for a crime i never committeo _ sent to prison for a crime i never committed. my whole family suffered. what is _ committed. my whole family suffered. what is it _ committed. my whole family suffered. what is it you want to hear from paula vennells today? just what is it you want to hear from paula vennells today?— paula vennells today? just the truth. paula vennells today? just the truth- and _ paula vennells today? just the truth. and do _ paula vennells today? just the truth. and do you _ paula vennells today? just the truth. and do you feel - paula vennells today? just the truth. and do you feel you - paula vennells today? just the | truth. and do you feel you have paula vennells today? just the - truth. and do you feel you have been caettin truth. and do you feel you have been getting that — truth. and do you feel you have been getting that in _ truth. and do you feel you have been getting that in the _ truth. and do you feel you have been getting that in the last _ truth. and do you feel you have been getting that in the last few _ truth. and do you feel you have been getting that in the last few weeks? i getting that in the last few weeks? and when it comes to paula vennells, what do you think her responsibility was towards you? she what do you think her responsibility was towards you?— was towards you? she was in a osition was towards you? she was in a position back _ was towards you? she was in a position back in _ was towards you? she was in a position back in 2013. - was towards you? she was in a position back in 2013. decided | was towards you? she was in a i position back in 2013. decided not to. i position back in 2013. decided not to i want — position back in 2013. decided not to. i want to know the reason why. why wasn't — to. i want to know the reason why. why wasn't it — to. i want to know the reason why. why wasn't it done. and to. i want to know the reason why. why wasn't it done.— why wasn't it done. and do you believe her _ why wasn't it done. and do you believe her when _ why wasn't it done. and do you believe her when she _ why wasn't it done. and do you believe her when she says - why wasn't it done. and do you believe her when she says that| why wasn't it done. and do you - believe her when she says that she had seen no evidence of any miscarriages ofjustice? she has been very clear about that. she has a second chance _ been very clear about that. she has a second chance to _ been very clear about that. she has a second chance to tell _ been very clear about that. she has a second chance to tell the - been very clear about that. she has a second chance to tell the truth i a second chance to tell the truth today _ a second chance to tell the truth toda . �* , , , ., a second chance to tell the truth toda. ., , today. let's see. if your family with ou today. let's see. if your family with you here _ today. let's see. if your family with you here today? - today. let's see. if your family with you here today? my - today. let's see. if your family i with you here today? my husband today. let's see. if your family - with you here today? my husband is here with me- _

with you here today? my husband is here with me. what _ with you here today? my husband is here with me. what is _ with you here today? my husband is here with me. what is the _ with you here today? my husband is here with me. what is the impact i here with me. what is the impact been on your— here with me. what is the impact been on your husband? _ here with me. what is the impact been on your husband? it - here with me. what is the impact been on your husband? it has - here with me. what is the impact i been on your husband? it has been terrible. been on your husband? it has been terrible- my — been on your husband? it has been terrible. my husband _ been on your husband? it has been terrible. my husband got _ been on your husband? it has been terrible. my husband got beaten i been on your husband? it has beenj terrible. my husband got beaten up three _ terrible. my husband got beaten up three times. the local newspaper called _ three times. the local newspaper called me — three times. the local newspaper called me a pregnant thief. | three times. the local newspaper called me a pregnant thief. i can see it is difficult _ called me a pregnant thief. i can see it is difficult for _ called me a pregnant thief. i can see it is difficult for you - called me a pregnant thief. i can see it is difficult for you to - called me a pregnant thief. i can see it is difficult for you to have | see it is difficult for you to have to relive all of this, even though you have had to repeat it over and over. one thing i've noticed when speaking to you and others, one of the hardest parts of this is not just the bankruptcy or the prison sentences, it has been the impact on your reputation the years? i sentences, it has been the impact on your reputation the years?— your reputation the years? i have never even _ your reputation the years? i have never even had _ your reputation the years? i have never even had a _ your reputation the years? i have never even had a speeding - your reputation the years? i have never even had a speeding fine, l your reputation the years? i have i never even had a speeding fine, and then going _ never even had a speeding fine, and then going to prison for a crime i never— then going to prison for a crime i never committed. now we are fighting for closure _ never committed. now we are fighting for closure. and never committed. now we are fighting for closure. �* ., ., . . ., ., , , for closure. and for accountability. you moved — for closure. and for accountability. you moved here _ for closure. and for accountability. you moved here to _ for closure. and for accountability. you moved here to the _ for closure. and for accountability. you moved here to the uk - for closure. and for accountability. you moved here to the uk with - for closure. and for accountability. | you moved here to the uk with your has been hoping for a better life. not for this. i has been hoping for a better life. not for thia— not for this. i know that you are hoinr to not for this. i know that you are hoping to get — not for this. i know that you are hoping to get into _ not for this. i know that you are hoping to get into that - not for this. i know that you are hoping to get into that inquiry . not for this. i know that you are | hoping to get into that inquiry as soon as possible. i will speak to you later.

soon as possible. i will speak to ou later. . ., soon as possible. i will speak to ou later. ., ,, , ., soon as possible. i will speak to you later-— soon as possible. i will speak to ou later. ., ,, , . soon as possible. i will speak to ou later. . ,, , . ., ,, you later. thank you very much. take care. you later. thank you very much. take care- again. — you later. thank you very much. take care- again. her— you later. thank you very much. take care. again, her story, _ you later. thank you very much. take care. again, her story, she _ you later. thank you very much. take care. again, her story, she was - care. again, her story, she was sentenced _ care. again, her story, she was sentenced to _ care. again, her story, she was sentenced to prison _ care. again, her story, she was sentenced to prison when - care. again, her story, she was sentenced to prison when she l care. again, her story, she was i sentenced to prison when she was eight weeks pregnant with her second child. these are some of the most powerful stories and shocking stories of this entire scandal. when it comes to this inquiry, paula vennells is appearing because she was chief executive between 2012-2019. that was chief executive between 2012—2019. that was a period when subpostmasters were still being prosecuted and there was growing evidence of miscarriages ofjustice. and during that entire period under her tenure, the post office denied that there was anything wrong with the horizon it system, a system we now know was faulty. as she prepares to give evidence here today, these are the big question is to look out for. when did she know about the issue of remote access? because what seem as rror and other

subpostmasters were denied was that fujitsu employees were able to access their branch accounts without them ever knowing. another big issue was whether she lied to parliament in 2015 when she appeared in front of the business select committee. she told them she had seen no evidence of miscarriages ofjustice. and of course, there is the big question about if she and others could have done more to find out exactly what was going on during this entire scandal. as for mrs vennells, she says she is truly sorry for victims. she is sorry for the devastation that this has caused and that she is assisting with the inquiry. of course, victims are going to hear a lot more than that today. going to hear a lot more than that toda . ~ , ., going to hear a lot more than that toda . ~ ,, , today. when you were speaking, it is reall 'ust today. when you were speaking, it is really just important _ today. when you were speaking, it is really just important to _ today. when you were speaking, it is really just important to reiterate - reallyjust important to reiterate how difficult the situation for her in particular was. eight weeks pregnant with her second child, sentenced to those 15 months in prison, so much that she will want

to hearfrom paula vennells. this will be the first time she is speaking publicly about this scandal in a decade. did she lie to parliament in 2015?- in a decade. did she lie to parliament in 2015? that is one of the big questions. _ parliament in 2015? that is one of the big questions. it _ parliament in 2015? that is one of the big questions. it is _ parliament in 2015? that is one of the big questions. it is partly - the big questions. it is partly because she did have a lengthy session in the business select committee alongside her right hand woman, who was another big figure in the itv drama that the public will be familiar with. she has already given her testimony over the course of two days here at the inquiry, and she was also alongside second sight, the forensic investigators that were hired to investigate potential miscarriages ofjustice. what was exactly going on when it came to the it system. one thing that has become so clear the more i have come to

these hearings is seema misra, janet skinner, so many of these victims, they are all a community now. and thatis they are all a community now. and that is because only they can really understand the consequences of this scandal. we are talking about homelessness, bankruptcy, prison sentences of course, but also impact on mental health. there are people who cannot be here today because they took their own lives. several suicides have been linked to this scandal. those are the stakes that we are talking about. and why this inquiry is so important. and when it comes to the issue of restoring their reputations, there have been some key moments in the last few years that have gone some way in terms of restoring their good names. there was the high courtjudgment in 2019, for example. but for them it will never give them the years they have lost back. that is why they still want answers. thank you very much for reiterating those big

questions for paula vennells that we need to be watching out for, that there is subpostmasters will certainly want to hear answers to. let's get our full background about what has been happening in this scandal from what has been happening in this scandalfrom our what has been happening in this scandal from our business correspondent, emma simpson. it is 2012 and paula vennells is in her first year as the new boss of the post office. she has already spent half a decade with the business. here she is on a visit to the shop floor. ., . ., here she is on a visit to the shop floor. ., _, ., , .,. , ~ here she is on a visit to the shop floor. ., .., ., , .,. , ~ , floor. you come to places like this and ou floor. you come to places like this and you find _ floor. you come to places like this and you find out _ floor. you come to places like this and you find out the _ floor. you come to places like this and you find out the little - floor. you come to places like this and you find out the little things l and you find out the little things that make the operation much more efficient _ that make the operation much more efficient. a . ., that make the operation much more efficient. 1, . ~ efficient. back then, the post office was — efficient. back then, the post office was haemorrhaging - efficient. back then, the post - office was haemorrhaging money. the pressure was on to turn things around. but did she put profits before people? there is a sack full of questions waiting for her now. lee bought the bridlington branch in 2003. the losses soon began. here he is after the post office made him

bankrupt with huge legal costs as they pursued him in court. 50 they pursued him in court. sr important for me personally... they pursued him in court. so - important for me personally... 20 ears important for me personally... 20 years on, he just wants some answers. i years on, he 'ust wants some answers. ., ., ., ., answers. i am not looking for her to be crucified — answers. i am not looking for her to be crucified are _ answers. i am not looking for her to be crucified are anything _ answers. i am not looking for her to be crucified are anything like - answers. i am not looking for her to be crucified are anything like that, l be crucified are anything like that, i am just looking for the truth. who knew what when? i just need i am just looking for the truth. who knew what when? ijust need to understand, help me in myjourney. politicians had plenty of dealings with paula vennells, too. i politicians had plenty of dealings with paula vennells, too.- with paula vennells, too. i don't exect with paula vennells, too. i don't exoect there _ with paula vennells, too. i don't expect there to _ with paula vennells, too. i don't expect there to be _ with paula vennells, too. i don't expect there to be many - with paula vennells, too. i don't expect there to be many got - with paula vennells, too. i don'tj expect there to be many got you moments — expect there to be many got you moments because her solicitors are very good — moments because her solicitors are ve aood. ., ~ , ., ., very good. lord arbuthnot played a ke role very good. lord arbuthnot played a key role putting — very good. lord arbuthnot played a key role putting pressure _ very good. lord arbuthnot played a key role putting pressure on - very good. lord arbuthnot played a key role putting pressure on the i key role putting pressure on the post office to come clean. the inquiry is likely to ask about this appearance before mps when she defended the faulty horizon it system. ii defended the faulty horizon it s stem. ., , ., , system. if there had been any miscarriages _ system. if there had been any miscarriages of _ system. if there had been any miscarriages ofjustice, - system. if there had been any miscarriages ofjustice, it i system. if there had been any l miscarriages ofjustice, it would have _ miscarriages ofjustice, it would have been— miscarriages ofjustice, it would have been really important to me and the post _ have been really important to me and the post office that we actually surface — the post office that we actually surface there is. and as the investigations have gone through, so far we _ investigations have gone through, so far we have _ investigations have gone through, so far we have had no evidence of that.

she must— far we have had no evidence of that. she must have known of the clerk advice which referred to one fujitsu witness who had misled the court and who has now been referred to the metropolitan police in view of some of the evidence that he gave. how did chi squared what she set in 2015 with what the barrister told her and the rest of the post office in 2013? in guildford, a theatre. with people who have come to hear more about the scandal. they are here to listen to the journalist who has spent years helping expose the truth. for him, leadership or a lack of it is key. if your business prosecutes people, prosecuting people is the most important part of your business. and you need to be all over it. and i don't think she was. she relied on post office loyalists and highly

paid legal advisers to tell her the truth is you want to hear, and i think now it is time we heard the actual truth from her. the stages now set for— actual truth from her. the stages now set for in _ actual truth from her. the stages now set for in the _ actual truth from her. the stages now set for in the public - actual truth from her. the stages now set for in the public inquiry. | now set for in the public inquiry. paula vennells's solicitors solicitors says she is focused on cooperating with it, breaking her silence for the first time in almost a decade. emma simpson, bbc news. some of the background to that, reminding us what some of these postmasters have experienced. we are waiting for paula vennells to start giving evidence to the post office inquiry. as we await that, let's go back to my colleague who is there. i know they postmasters, some of them saying that they don't want her to just be a scapegoat. but i'm sure they will be listening very closely to the evidence, especially those key points that she has to answer. absolutely. that is something i have heard time and time again. they feel like every single person who is potentially accountable for this needs to answer for the scandal, and

none of them have said that they think paula vennells is the only one to blame, if she is to blame, if thatis to blame, if she is to blame, if that is what the inquiry does conclude. that is partly because this is a scandal that has gone on for two decades. and so there is of course more than one person potentially responsible for this. of course, paula vennells, she was chief executive for the latter part of this scandal, but of course prosecutions were still going on. and that is the part of this scandal work subpostmasters allege a potential cover—up. now, when it comes to what these subpostmasters have had to go through to get to this point, it has been a lengthy process. there was of course the famous high courtjudgment in 2019 when 555 subpostmasters, led by alan bates, took the post office to

court, and that led to the post office agreeing to compensation for subpostmasters, although a lot of it got swallowed up by legal fees. there was also a court of appeals hearing in 2021 which quashed some of their convictions. but more convictions are still waiting to be quashed. in fact, there is a hearing today where we do expect a result at some point this morning. and of course there is also the plan that the government introduced in march two quashed more of those convictions. they have said that they expect to clear most people, most victims, and we are talking about more than 900 at this point, by the end ofjuly. find about more than 900 at this point, by the end ofjuly— by the end ofjuly. and as we continue _ by the end ofjuly. and as we continue to _ by the end ofjuly. and as we continue to await _ by the end ofjuly. and as we continue to await the - by the end ofjuly. and as we - continue to await the commencement of the inquiry this morning, we are expecting three days of her evidence. the first time she is speaking in a decade, in nearly a decade, but it's not the first time

we have been hearing about her. absolutely. a lot of people will have known about this scandal for years, but many of them will have come to it fresh because of the itv drama, mr bates vs the post office. of course, she was at the heart of that story, and so people are particularly familiar about it. that is actually where some of the criticism for the government comes into play. what had seemingly took a tv drama to force their hand when it came to legislation. but, yes, this is a moment the public and of course the victims have been waiting for. let's cross over life to the inquiry as paula vennells is being sworn in. i think it appropriate to give you a direction about self—incrimination. you may know or may have heard that i have given this direction on a number of occasions, and although i'm sure with the legal advice you have had it has been explained to

you, it is only right that i should do it publicly, all right? under our law, a witness at a public inquiry has the right to decline to answer a question put to her by counsel to the inquiry by any legal representative or bite me if there is a risk that the answer to that question would incriminate the witness. in shorthand form, this legal principle is known as the privilege against self—incrimination. i consider that fairness demands that i remind you of that principle before you begin your evidence. i should tell you that it your evidence. i should tell you thatitis your evidence. i should tell you that it is for you to make it clear to me in respect of any question put to me in respect of any question put to you that it is your wish to rely upon the privilege against self—incrimination. if, therefore, questions are put to you by any of

the lawyers or bite me which you do not wish to answer, you must tell me immediately after such a question is put. at that point, i will consider your objection and then rule upon whether your objection should be upheld. i know that you are represented by experienced lawyers here today no doubt if the issue of self—incrimination arises, they will assist you if you need their assistance. if at any stage during the questioning you wish to consult your lawyer is about privilege against self—incrimination, you must tell me so i can consider what appropriate action to take. do you understand all that?— appropriate action to take. do you understand all that? thank you for that. i understand all that? thank you for that- i plan — understand all that? thank you for that- i plan to _ understand all that? thank you for that. i plan to answer— understand all that? thank you for that. i plan to answer all— understand all that? thank you for that. i plan to answer all of- understand all that? thank you for that. i plan to answer all of the i that. i plan to answer all of the questions. that. i plan to answer all of the questions-— that. i plan to answer all of the ruestions. ., ., , ., questions. good morning. can you rive us

questions. good morning. can you give us your— questions. good morning. can you give us your full _ questions. good morning. can you give us your full name, _ questions. good morning. can you give us your full name, please? i questions. good morning. can you i give us your full name, please? paul and venables- _ give us your full name, please? paul and venables. thank— give us your full name, please? paul and venables. thank you _ give us your full name, please? paul and venables. thank you for - give us your full name, please? paul and venables. thank you for giving l and venables. thank you for giving to... the first witness _ and venables. thank you for giving to... the first witness statement i and venables. thank you for giving to... the first witness statement is dated _ to... the first witness statement is dated the _ to... the first witness statement is dated the 8th of march 2024. debeuuh dated the 8th of march 2024. debeljuh itn 01020100. i wonder if we can— debeljuh itn 01020100. i wonder if we can have that on the screen, please — we can have that on the screen, please it— we can have that on the screen, please it is— we can have that on the screen, please. it is 775 pages long and i think— please. it is 775 pages long and i think there — please. it is 775 pages long and i think there are three corrections that you — think there are three corrections that you wish to make to it. can we deal with— that you wish to make to it. can we deal with those first? page 15, please — deal with those first? page 15, please it— deal with those first? page 15, please. it will be brought up on the screen _ please. it will be brought up on the screen for— please. it will be brought up on the screen for you. please. it will be brought up on the screen for you-— please. it will be brought up on the l screen for you._ paragraph screen for you. thank you. paragraph 34. in the second _ screen for you. thank you. paragraph 34. in the second line, _ screen for you. thank you. paragraph 34. in the second line, it _ screen for you. thank you. paragraph 34. in the second line, it says - screen for you. thank you. paragraph 34. in the second line, it says if i 34. in the second line, it says if this including personal relations issues, — this including personal relations issues, the marketing director would

be consulted. should that read public — be consulted. should that read public relations? it be consulted. should that read public relations?— public relations? it should. secondly. _ public relations? it should. secondly. page _ public relations? it should. secondly, page 130,. i public relations? it should. secondly, page 130,. -- i public relations? it should. i secondly, page 130,. -- paula public relations? it should. - secondly, page 130,. -- paula anne vennells. secondly, page 130,. -- paula anne vennells- do — secondly, page 130,. -- paula anne vennells. do you _ secondly, page 130,. -- paula anne vennells. do you see _ secondly, page 130,. -- paula anne vennells. do you see in _ secondly, page 130,. -- paula anne vennells. do you see in the - secondly, page 130,. -- paula anne vennells. do you see in the third i vennells. do you see in the third line where _ vennells. do you see in the third line where it _ vennells. do you see in the third line where it says _ vennells. do you see in the third line where it says questions i vennells. do you see in the third line where it says questions 53 l vennells. do you see in the third l line where it says questions 53 and 54 omitted — line where it says questions 53 and 54 omitted as general questions? should _ 54 omitted as general questions? should that read questions 53 and 54 are dealt— should that read questions 53 and 54 are dealt with elsewhere in the statement? it are dealt with elsewhere in the statement?— are dealt with elsewhere in the statement?_ thank . are dealt with elsewhere in the i statement?_ thank you. statement? it should. thank you. thirdl , statement? it should. thank you. thirdly. page _ statement? it should. thank you. thirdly. page 194. _ at the top, part of paragraph 405, it reads _

at the top, part of paragraph 405, it reads in — at the top, part of paragraph 405, it reads in the second line, "too much _ it reads in the second line, "too much reliance on the recollection of the mediation scheme's applicants," instead _ the mediation scheme's applicants," instead of— the mediation scheme's applicants," instead of mediation scheme's applicants should that read of subpostmasters? it applicants should that read of subpostmasters?— applicants should that read of- subpostmasters?_ thank subpostmasters? it should. thank ou. turn subpostmasters? it should. thank you- turn to _ subpostmasters? it should. thank you- turn to page _ subpostmasters? it should. thank you. turn to page 775, _ subpostmasters? it should. thank you. turn to page 775, please. i that is the statement of truth page. did you _ that is the statement of truth page. did you sign that via some electronic means? i did. forthe content — electronic means? i did. forthe content is — electronic means? i did. forthe content is true to the best of your knowledge and belief? yes, content is true to the best of your knowledge and belief?— knowledge and belief? yes, they were. can knowledge and belief? yes, they were- can we _ knowledge and belief? yes, they were. can we turn _ knowledge and belief? yes, they were. can we turn to _ knowledge and belief? yes, they were. can we turn to your- knowledge and belief? yes, they| were. can we turn to your second witness statement, _ were. can we turn to your second witness statement, please. i

this is your second witness statement. it is dated the 8th of april— statement. it is dated the 8th of april 2024. statement. it is dated the 8th of april2024. it statement. it is dated the 8th of april 2024. it is 23 pages long. again, — april 2024. it is 23 pages long. again, can— april 2024. it is 23 pages long. again, can we turn to page 23, please _ again, can we turn to page 23, please. and scroll down. did you si-n please. and scroll down. did you sign this— please. and scroll down. did you sign this witness statement using duckie _ sign this witness statement using duckie sign or a similar electronic means? — duckie sign or a similar electronic means? i— duckie sign or a similar electronic means? i did. are the contents of that when— means? i did. are the contents of that when the statement correct to the best— that when the statement correct to the best of your knowledge and belief — the best of your knowledge and belief. they can be put to one side. there _ belief. they can be put to one side. there are _ belief. they can be put to one side. there are going to be uploaded to the inquiry's website. i'm not going to ask— the inquiry's website. i'm not going to ask you — the inquiry's website. i'm not going to ask you questions about the contents— to ask you questions about the contents of either of them in detail — contents of either of them in detail in— contents of either of them in detail. in particular, your first witness — detail. in particular, your first witness statement. because it is a very long — witness statement. because it is a very long witness statement. 775 pages _ very long witness statement. 775 pages. and in large measure, it narrates— pages. and in large measure, it narrates a — pages. and in large measure, it narrates a number of documents we have sent _ narrates a number of documents we have sent to — narrates a number of documents we have sent to you and i am interested in your— have sent to you and i am interested in your personal recollection rather than what —

in your personal recollection rather than what the documents show, if you understand _ than what the documents show, if you understand. before we address the issues _ understand. before we address the issues of— understand. before we address the issues of substance, which i am going _ issues of substance, which i am going to — issues of substance, which i am going to do thematically rather than chronologically, i would like if i may— chronologically, i would like if i may to — chronologically, i would like if i may to address some overarching themes _ may to address some overarching themes with you, and there are seven of them _ themes with you, and there are seven of them l— themes with you, and there are seven of them. ., ., ., ,, ., , ., of them. i did want to make a short statement first _ of them. i did want to make a short statement first if _ of them. i did want to make a short statement first if i _ of them. i did want to make a short statement first if i could. _ of them. i did want to make a short statement first if i could. you i of them. i did want to make a short statement first if i could. you go i statement first if i could. you go ahead. i would _ statement first if i could. you go ahead. i would just _ statement first if i could. you go ahead. i wouldjust like - statement first if i could. you go ahead. i would just like to i statement first if i could. you go ahead. i wouldjust like to say, l statement first if i could. you go i ahead. i wouldjust like to say, and ahead. i would 'ust like to say, and i'm ahead. i would 'ust like to say, and m grateful— ahead. iwouldjust like to say, and i'm grateful for— ahead. i wouldjust like to say, and i'm grateful for the _ ahead. i wouldjust like to say, and i'm grateful for the opportunity i ahead. i wouldjust like to say, and i'm grateful for the opportunity to l i'm grateful for the opportunity to do this, how sorry i am for all that subpostmasters and their families and others who suffered as a result of all of the matter is that the inquiry has been looking into for so long. ifollowed and listen inquiry has been looking into for so long. i followed and listen to all of the human impact statements and i was very affected by them. i remember listening to one per semester whose name i've noted who said that he would like somebody to go and stand outside his old post

office with him so he could tell them exactly what he had been through. i would do that. i am very, very sorry. i would also like to repeat the apology that is in my witness statement to alan bates, to ian henderson from second sight, and to lord arbuthnot. and those i worked with and i made their work so much harder, and i'm very, very sorry for that. my third apology is really about today. because i will answer the questions truthfully and i am very aware that they will be difficult to listen to for you and for me. and i ask your understanding in advance of that. thank you. thank ou. i in advance of that. thank you. thank you- i should — in advance of that. thank you. thank you- i should say. — in advance of that. thank you. thank you. i should say, there _ in advance of that. thank you. thank you. i should say, there is _ in advance of that. thank you. thank you. i should say, there is going i in advance of that. thank you. thank you. i should say, there is going to l you. i should say, there is going to be a _ you. i should say, there is going to be a fire _ you. i should say, there is going to be a fire alarm at ten o'clock. we are just _ be a fire alarm at ten o'clock. we are just going to sit here all together and listen to it and then carry— together and listen to it and then carry on— together and listen to it and then carry on afterwards. —— docusign. some _ carry on afterwards. —— docusign. some general issues if i may. in

light— some general issues if i may. in light of— some general issues if i may. in light of the _ some general issues if i may. in light of the information that you tell us— light of the information that you tell us in— light of the information that you tell us in your witness statement you were — tell us in your witness statement you were not given, in the light of the documents you tell us in your witness _ the documents you tell us in your witness statement you did not see an in the _ witness statement you did not see an in the light— witness statement you did not see an in the light of the assurances that you tell— in the light of the assurances that you tell us — in the light of the assurances that you tell us about in your witness statement — you tell us about in your witness statement that you were given by post office staff, do you think you are the _ post office staff, do you think you are the unluckiest ceo in the united kingdom? _ i was given much information and, as the inquiry has heard, there was information that i wasn't given and others did not receive as well. one of my reflections on all of this is that i was too trusting. i did probe and i did ask questions, and i'm

disappointed where information was not shared and it has been a very important time for me as i have gone through all of the documentation that i have seen since to plug some of those gaps and to remind me what i did see and perhaps had not remembered. flan i did see and perhaps had not remembered.— i did see and perhaps had not remembered. ., ., remembered. can i run through with ou? i do remembered. can i run through with you? i do not _ remembered. can i run through with you? i do not want _ remembered. can i run through with you? i do not want to _ remembered. can i run through with you? i do not want to display - remembered. can i run through with you? i do not want to display them l you? i do not want to display them on the _ you? i do not want to display them on the screen in the interest of time _ on the screen in the interest of time but— on the screen in the interest of time. but take it from me that these are accurate, short summaries of what _ are accurate, short summaries of what you — are accurate, short summaries of what you say your witness statement. the things _ what you say your witness statement. the things that you say you were not told and _ the things that you say you were not told and you — the things that you say you were not told and you did not see. paragraph 104 on— told and you did not see. paragraph 104 on page 39, nobody on the post office _ 104 on page 39, nobody on the post office told _ 104 on page 39, nobody on the post office told you there were bugs, errors _ office told you there were bugs, errors or— office told you there were bugs, errors or defects in horizon or that it lacked _ errors or defects in horizon or that it lacked integrity, or even that there _ it lacked integrity, or even that there were allegations to that effect — there were allegations to that effect when you joined the post

office _ effect when you joined the post office in — effect when you joined the post office injanuary effect when you joined the post office in january 2007. effect when you joined the post office injanuary 2007. yes? yes. paragraph— office injanuary 2007. yes? yes. paragraph 109 on page 31. when you were joined, you were not briefed on the contract — were joined, you were not briefed on the contract with fujitsu?— the contract with fu'itsu? correct? correct. paragraph i the contract with fujitsu? correct? correct. paragraph 114 _ the contract with fujitsu? correct? correct. paragraph 114 page - the contract with fujitsu? correct? correct. paragraph 114 page 33, i the contract with fujitsu? correct? i correct. paragraph 114 page 33, when comuter correct. paragraph 114 page 33, when computer weekly _ correct. paragraph 114 page 33, when computer weekly published _ correct. paragraph 114 page 33, when computer weekly published this i computer weekly published this article — computer weekly published this article in — computer weekly published this article in may 2009, you were told by mike _ article in may 2009, you were told by mike young, the then operations director, _ by mike young, the then operations director, that the magazine did not know— director, that the magazine did not know what — director, that the magazine did not know what it was talking about in relation _ know what it was talking about in relation to — know what it was talking about in relation to horizon and assure you that there — relation to horizon and assure you that there was nothing wrong with the horizon system, correct? yes. paragraph— the horizon system, correct? yes. paragraph 129 on page 50. you did not know— paragraph 129 on page 50. you did not know at— paragraph 129 on page 50. you did not know at the time of the computer weekly— not know at the time of the computer weekly article in may 2009 of the calendar— weekly article in may 2009 of the calendar square bug, you didn't know of the _ calendar square bug, you didn't know of the running out bug, you didn't know— of the running out bug, you didn't know about — of the running out bug, you didn't know about the reversals bug, the data thri _ know about the reversals bug, the data thri reversals bug, the phantom transactions but, the current

logins. — transactions but, the current logins. or— transactions but, the current logins, orthe bureau to transactions but, the current logins, or the bureau to change bug because _ logins, or the bureau to change bug because nobody had told you about them, _ because nobody had told you about them, correct? because nobody had told you about them. correct?— because nobody had told you about them, correct?- paragraph| them, correct? correct. paragraph 133 on page _ them, correct? correct. paragraph 133 on page 52. — them, correct? correct. paragraph 133 on page 52. you _ them, correct? correct. paragraph 133 on page 52, you were - them, correct? correct. paragraph 133 on page 52, you were not i them, correct? correct. paragraph| 133 on page 52, you were not made aware — 133 on page 52, you were not made aware of— 133 on page 52, you were not made aware of the receipts and payments mismatch _ aware of the receipts and payments mismatch bug when it was discovered in september or october 2010, the first that _ in september or october 2010, the first that you knew about it was in may 2013? — first that you knew about it was in ma 2013? ., . first that you knew about it was in may 2013?- paragraph i first that you knew about it was in may 2013?- paragraph 154j first that you knew about it was in i may 2013?- paragraph 154 on may 2013? correct. paragraph 154 on .ae. may 2013? correct. paragraph 154 on -a~e 61, may 2013? correct. paragraph 154 on page 61, you — may 2013? correct. paragraph 154 on page 61, you were — may 2013? correct. paragraph 154 on page 61, you were not _ may 2013? correct. paragraph 154 on page 61, you were not told _ may 2013? correct. paragraph 154 on page 61, you were not told of - may 2013? correct. paragraph 154 on page 61, you were not told of the i page 61, you were not told of the running _ page 61, you were not told of the running in — page 61, you were not told of the running in bug, the local suspense account_ running in bug, the local suspense account bug, the recovery bug, the withdrawal— account bug, the recovery bug, the withdrawal discrepancies bug or the top up _ withdrawal discrepancies bug or the top up bug when you became managing director_ top up bug when you became managing director in _ top up bug when you became managing director in october 2010 because nobody— director in october 2010 because nobody told you about them? correct. paraa-rahs nobody told you about them? correct. paragraphs 180 _ nobody told you about them? correct. paragraphs 180 and _ nobody told you about them? correct. paragraphs 180 and 181 _ nobody told you about them? correct. paragraphs 180 and 181 on _ nobody told you about them? correct. paragraphs 180 and 181 on page - nobody told you about them? correct. paragraphs 180 and 181 on page 75, i paragraphs 180 and 181 on page 75, you had _ paragraphs 180 and 181 on page 75, you had no— paragraphs 180 and 181 on page 75, you had no understanding of how suspense — you had no understanding of how suspense accounts operated during your time _ suspense accounts operated during your time as network director or managing — your time as network director or managing director, and if there were issues _ managing director, and if there were issues with—

managing director, and if there were issues with suspense accounts, you are not— issues with suspense accounts, you are not made aware of them, correct?