agency, the and the benefits agency, the splitting of the contract, the acceptance incident. you shake the corporate _ acceptance incident. you shake the corporate memory didn't exist. all of the _ corporate memory didn't exist. all of the documents weather, we have -ot of the documents weather, we have got them, _ of the documents weather, we have got them, we looked at them, we spent _ got them, we looked at them, we spent five — got them, we looked at them, we spent five months looking at them. you're right, and i didn't. there is an issue of unknown unknowns. if you do not know something exists, it is difficult to ask questions about it. that is why the importance of governance around corporate memories on bad things, there was plenty of good corporate memory in the post office, is important to have. i simply did not have that information.— simply did not have that information. ., , information. cutting through this, this exchange _ information. cutting through this, this exchange reveals _ information. cutting through this, this exchange reveals that - information. cutting through this, this exchange reveals that even . information. cutting through this, i this exchange reveals that even the chief executive of the royal mail group _ chief executive of the royal mail group who supported you over all of those _ group who supported you over all of those years — group who supported you over all of those years doesn't believe you, does _ those years doesn't believe you, does she? — those years doesn't believe you, does she? ., those years doesn't believe you, does she?— does she? that is what this particular — does she? that is what this particular text _ does she? that is what this

particular text says. - does she? that is what this i particular text says. whether does she? that is what this - particular text says. whether moya still feels the same, i don't know, you would have to ask her. flan still feels the same, i don't know, you would have to ask her.- you would have to ask her. can i turn to than _ you would have to ask her. can i turn to than i _ you would have to ask her. can i turn to than i was _ you would have to ask her. can i turn to than i was a _ you would have to ask her. can i turn to than i was a second - you would have to ask her. can i turn to than i was a second general topic _ turn to than i was a second general topic cah— turn to than i was a second general topic. can we look at pages two and three _ topic. can we look at pages two and three of— topic. can we look at pages two and three of your witness statement, please _ paragraph five, which is at the bottom — paragraph five, which is at the bottom. you say "i would like to offer _ bottom. you say "i would like to offer my— bottom. you say "i would like to offer my genuine and unreserved apologies. i apologise that i and those _ apologies. i apologise that i and those working for me fails the subpostmasters and their families. i'm deeply— subpostmasters and their families. i'm deeply sorry they have suffered in such— i'm deeply sorry they have suffered in such a _ i'm deeply sorry they have suffered in such a deeply distressing way. i watch _ in such a deeply distressing way. i watch the — in such a deeply distressing way. i watch the inquiry's human evidence and heard _ watch the inquiry's human evidence and heard subpostmasters describe what they— and heard subpostmasters describe what they had been through, how isolated _ what they had been through, how isolated they had felt and how they

had been _ isolated they had felt and how they had been unsupported by the post office _ had been unsupported by the post office. they describe life changing... iam office. they describe life changing... i am so very sorry that so much _ changing... i am so very sorry that so much of— changing... i am so very sorry that so much of this happened whilst i was a _ so much of this happened whilst i was a member of the senior management team, and then ceo. i also offer— management team, and then ceo. i also offer my apologies to alan bates _ also offer my apologies to alan bates and all those who worked with them to— bates and all those who worked with them to secure justice for the subpostmasters. they had the right insights, _ subpostmasters. they had the right insights, they were right to persevere, i am insights, they were right to persevere, iam sorry insights, they were right to persevere, i am sorry that i made their— persevere, i am sorry that i made their task— persevere, i am sorry that i made their task harder." some of which he said first _ their task harder." some of which he said first thing this morning. can we go _ said first thing this morning. can we go forward to page 774. paragraph 1800. you say, "i've been asked _ paragraph 1800. you say, "i've been asked to _ paragraph 1800. you say, "i've been asked to reflect my time at the post office _ asked to reflect my time at the post office and _ asked to reflect my time at the post office and if there is anything i would — office and if there is anything i would handle differently with hindsight." and then, 1801," i have

had much _ hindsight." and then, 1801," i have had much to— hindsight." and then, 1801," i have had much to consider. with the benefit — had much to consider. with the benefit of— had much to consider. with the benefit of hindsight, there are many things— benefit of hindsight, there are many things that _ benefit of hindsight, there are many things that i and the post office should — things that i and the post office should do differently. i'm now reflecting with care on these matters _ reflecting with care on these matters and will expand on them when i -ive matters and will expand on them when lgive my— matters and will expand on them when i give my evidence to the inquiry." "these _ i give my evidence to the inquiry." "these reflections will demonstrate my deep— "these reflections will demonstrate my deep remorse." so our request, which _ my deep remorse." so our request, which was _ my deep remorse." so our request, which was made in august 2023, so seven— which was made in august 2023, so seven months before you provided this witness statement, was for you to, "reflect— this witness statement, was for you to, "reflect on your time at the post _ to, "reflect on your time at the post office and set out whether there _ post office and set out whether there was anything you would have handled _ there was anything you would have handled differently with hindsight," yes? you _ handled differently with hindsight," yes? you explain in paragraph 1801 that there — yes? you explain in paragraph 1801 that there are many things you should — that there are many things you should have done differently and the post office should have done differently. and you will expand upon _ differently. and you will expand upon them and answer them fully when

you give _ upon them and answer them fully when you give your evidence in may, today~ — you give your evidence in may, today. given you provided a 775 page witness _ today. given you provided a 775 page witness statement that took seven months _ witness statement that took seven months to — witness statement that took seven months to write, could you not have reflected _ months to write, could you not have reflected on — months to write, could you not have reflected on what you should have done _ reflected on what you should have done fully— reflected on what you should have done fully and differently within the witness statement? yes, i could have put more into it. and i'm sorry if that wasn't helpful. i read so many documents and worked a long time to try and prepare this, and... and worked a long time to try and prepare this, and. . ._ and worked a long time to try and prepare this, and... i'm sure that's true. disclosures _ prepare this, and... i'm sure that's true. disclosures are _ prepare this, and... i'm sure that's true. disclosures are coming - prepare this, and... i'm sure that's true. disclosures are coming out i prepare this, and... i'm sure that's| true. disclosures are coming out all ofthe true. disclosures are coming out all of the time- — true. disclosures are coming out all of the time- i— true. disclosures are coming out all of the time. i would _ true. disclosures are coming out all of the time. i would be _ true. disclosures are coming out all of the time. i would be very - true. disclosures are coming out all of the time. i would be very happy. of the time. i would be very happy to tell the inquiry now. i have a list of things in my head and i hope that i will be able to bring them out as we go through this statement. equally, i would out as we go through this statement. equally, iwould be out as we go through this statement. equally, i would be more than happy

to submit a further statement to set that out. , . , ., to submit a further statement to set that out. , . i. ., ., ~' that out. given that you took 775 ”aes that out. given that you took 775 pages and _ that out. given that you took 775 pages and seven _ that out. given that you took 775 pages and seven months - that out. given that you took 775 pages and seven months to - that out. given that you took 775| pages and seven months to write this, _ pages and seven months to write this, why— pages and seven months to write this, why didn't you do so then? given— this, why didn't you do so then? given that — this, why didn't you do so then? given that we had asked you that direct— given that we had asked you that direct question. were you adopting a wait and _ direct question. were you adopting a wait and see approach? "let's see what _ wait and see approach? "let's see what comes— wait and see approach? "let's see what comes out in evidence, see what i what comes out in evidence, see what i have _ what comes out in evidence, see what i have got— what comes out in evidence, see what i have got to _ what comes out in evidence, see what i have got to admit, and then i will admit— i have got to admit, and then i will admit that?"— i have got to admit, and then i will admit that?" no, not at all. that is not the way — admit that?" no, not at all. that is not the way i _ admit that?" no, not at all. that is not the way i work. _ admit that?" no, not at all. that is not the way i work. so _ admit that?" no, not at all. that is not the way i work. so why - admit that?" no, not at all. that is not the way i work. so why did - admit that?" no, not at all. that is not the way i work. so why did you | not the way i work. so why did you not the way i work. so why did you not assist us _ not the way i work. so why did you not assist us by _ not the way i work. so why did you not assist us by setting _ not the way i work. so why did you not assist us by setting out - not the way i work. so why did you not assist us by setting out in - not the way i work. so why did you not assist us by setting out in this| not assist us by setting out in this document— not assist us by setting out in this document what your reflections were? it document what your reflections were? it was _ document what your reflections were? it was simply a matter of time. the inquiry asked me i think over 600 questions, two or 300 with sub—questions in each. i went through probably hundreds of thousands of documents. and my memory was not very good at the beginning of this process. it has improved as i have gone through the

documentation. that was important. by documentation. that was important. by the time i got to december last year with the draft went in, i had simply run out of time to answer these questions properly. they are very serious questions. in the list of the inquiry sent to me. i would be happy to write them up in much more detail or i would be happy to share with you now or as we go through those reflections. it was absolutely not a wait and see. flan i absolutely not a wait and see. can i turn to the — absolutely not a wait and see. can i turn to the third _ absolutely not a wait and see. can i turn to the third topic, _ absolutely not a wait and see. can i turn to the third topic, please? which — turn to the third topic, please? which is — turn to the third topic, please? which is what you think went wrong. can we _ which is what you think went wrong. can we go— which is what you think went wrong. can we go back to paragraph four of your witness statement, please, which _ your witness statement, please, which i _ your witness statement, please, which i think is on page two. and if we scroll— which i think is on page two. and if we scroll down, please, you say you have _ we scroll down, please, you say you have treen— we scroll down, please, you say you have been shown and read thousands of documents from the inquiry pass disclosure — of documents from the inquiry pass disclosure when you were writing this witness statement, yes? yes.

and ou this witness statement, yes? yes. and you have _ this witness statement, yes? yes. and you have done _ this witness statement, yes? yes. and you have done your _ this witness statement, yes? yes and you have done your best to refer to all— and you have done your best to refer to all relevant documents and answer all questions fully. you are sure that you — all questions fully. you are sure that you may have overlooked some inadvertently. yes. can we go forwards— inadvertently. yes. can we go forwards to page 774. and paragraph 1802. thank you. in the second — and paragraph 1802. thank you. in the second line, you say, "i'm genuinely— the second line, you say, "i'm genuinely sorry. i finished the statement by repeating my apologies to the _ statement by repeating my apologies to the subpostmasters and their families, — to the subpostmasters and their families, and to all who have suffered _ families, and to all who have suffered so much from this terrible miscarriage ofjustice." and then this, _ miscarriage ofjustice." and then this, "their— miscarriage ofjustice." and then this, "their lives were torn apart try this, "their lives were torn apart by being — this, "their lives were torn apart by being wrongly accused and wrongly prosecuted as a result of the horizon _ prosecuted as a result of the horizon system. " ijust want to focus _ horizon system. " ijust want to focus on — horizon system. " ijust want to focus on the words" as a result of

the horizon — focus on the words" as a result of the horizon system". even after all the horizon system". even after all the inquiry— the horizon system". even after all the inquiry has revealed and after the inquiry has revealed and after the thousands of documents you have read, _ the thousands of documents you have read. do _ the thousands of documents you have read. do you — the thousands of documents you have read, do you continue to think that the issue _ read, do you continue to think that the issue was with the computer system, — the issue was with the computer system, the horizon system, as opposed — system, the horizon system, as opposed to the conduct, competence and ethics _ opposed to the conduct, competence and ethics of those within the post office? _ and ethics of those within the post office? ., and ethics of those within the post office? :, :, :. and ethics of those within the post office? :, :, . . and ethics of those within the post office? ., ., ., ., ~ office? no, not at all. and apologies _ office? no, not at all. and apologies that _ office? no, not at all. and apologies that that - office? no, not at all. and apologies that that is - office? no, not at all. and apologies that that is not l office? no, not at all. and - apologies that that is not clear. there were numbers of debates about what the horizon system meant. what i meant to say or what i should have said is as a result of all of the matters relating to horizon and all of the issues that were discussed and that the inquiry is looking at. this suggests that you think the issue _ this suggests that you think the issue was— this suggests that you think the issue was with the system, not the people _ issue was with the system, not the people the — issue was with the system, not the people. the people that were responsible for the conduct, the prosecutions, the people that were responsible for the conduct of investigations, and indeed there is

responsible for their supervision, oversight— responsible for their supervision, oversight and governance, doesn't it? :, :, , oversight and governance, doesn't it? :, :, :, ., it? that was not what i intended to conve at it? that was not what i intended to convey at all- _ it? that was not what i intended to convey at all. is _ it? that was not what i intended to convey at all. is this _ it? that was not what i intended to convey at all. is this a _ convey at all. is this a perpetuation, - convey at all. is this a perpetuation, but - convey at all. is this a perpetuation, but we | convey at all. is this a i perpetuation, but we see convey at all. is this a - perpetuation, but we see in this simple — perpetuation, but we see in this simple sentence here, of a culture that ran _ simple sentence here, of a culture that ran through the post office, of failing _ that ran through the post office, of failing to _ that ran through the post office, of failing to take responsibility for the use — failing to take responsibility for the use of powers that it elected to use and _ the use of powers that it elected to use and indeed used robustly question— use and indeed used robustly question mark and instead blamed the it. :, , :, :, :, :, question mark and instead blamed the it. no, it is not that at all, and i completely _ it. no, it is not that at all, and i completely agree _ it. no, it is not that at all, and i completely agree with _ it. no, it is not that at all, and i completely agree with what - it. no, it is not that at all, and i completely agree with what is i completely agree with what is contained in your question. the tragedy that we are dealing with todayis tragedy that we are dealing with today is the result of something much, much broader than an it system. yes, that underpins some of it, but the issues are much, much broader. ., , ., , ., , broader. the words that you finish the statement _ broader. the words that you finish the statement with _ broader. the words that you finish the statement with here, - broader. the words that you finish the statement with here, this - broader. the words that you finish the statement with here, this last| the statement with here, this last two sentences, are exactly the same words _ two sentences, are exactly the same words that— two sentences, are exactly the same words that you used, a cut and paste. — words that you used, a cut and paste, when you were announcing that

you are _ paste, when you were announcing that you are returning your cbe to the king. _ you are returning your cbe to the king, correct? i you are returning your cbe to the king. correct?— you are returning your cbe to the king, correct? i do not recall that, but if ou king, correct? i do not recall that, but if you say _ king, correct? i do not recall that, but if you say so. _ king, correct? i do not recall that, but if you say so, yes. _ king, correct? i do not recall that, but if you say so, yes. yes, - king, correct? i do not recall that, but if you say so, yes. yes, they l but if you say so, yes. yes, they are a cut — but if you say so, yes. yes, they are a cut and — but if you say so, yes. yes, they are a cut and paste, _ but if you say so, yes. yes, they are a cut and paste, i _ but if you say so, yes. yes, they are a cut and paste, i looked - but if you say so, yes. yes, they i are a cut and paste, i looked online to see _ are a cut and paste, i looked online to see the — are a cut and paste, i looked online to see the words are used when apologising and explaining the return— apologising and explaining the return of the cbe. is that how you thought. — return of the cbe. is that how you thought, then, that it is the computer system that is the problem, not the _ computer system that is the problem, not the people? no, computer system that is the problem, not the people?— not the people? no, i didn't. i have “ust not the people? no, i didn't. i have just explained. _ not the people? no, i didn't. i have just explained, it _ not the people? no, i didn't. i have just explained, it was _ not the people? no, i didn't. i have just explained, it was a _ not the people? no, i didn't. i have just explained, it was a poor- not the people? no, i didn't. i have just explained, it was a poor use i not the people? no, i didn't. i have just explained, it was a poor use of| just explained, it was a poor use of words. this was far more complicated than just the horizon system. does than “ust the horizon system. does it than just the horizon system. does it reflect a fundamental _ thanjust the horizon system. does it reflect a fundamental failure to understand how profound a power the post office _ understand how profound a power the post office chose to exercise when it prosecuted people at scale, and how serious and broad the use of that power— how serious and broad the use of that power was? no, how serious and broad the use of that power was?—

how serious and broad the use of that power was? no, because i wrote this in hindsight. _ that power was? no, because i wrote this in hindsight. i— that power was? no, because i wrote this in hindsight. i think— that power was? no, because i wrote this in hindsight. i think at _ that power was? no, because i wrote this in hindsight. i think at the - this in hindsight. i think at the time your question is valid. the post office did not realise all of that. :. post office did not realise all of that. . ., , ., , . that. can i turn to the first topic, lease? that. can i turn to the first topic, please? which _ that. can i turn to the first topic, please? which is _ that. can i turn to the first topic, please? which is whether - that. can i turn to the first topic, please? which is whether your . please? which is whether your priority— please? which is whether your priority in— please? which is whether your priority in your time at the post office _ priority in your time at the post office was— priority in your time at the post office was to protect the business? can we _ office was to protect the business? can we turn— office was to protect the business? can we turn up, please, pole 2438. can you see an e—mail exchange between — can you see an e—mail exchange between you and jane mcleod, mark davies _ between you and jane mcleod, mark davies and _ between you and jane mcleod, mark davies and alistair cameron, with

other— davies and alistair cameron, with other people can be done, of the 3rd of august— other people can be done, of the 3rd of august 2015?— you say, "i have listed below some questions _ you say, "i have listed below some questions and requests." and then, in the _ questions and requests." and then, in the second paragraph, you say," as my— in the second paragraph, you say," as my earlier— in the second paragraph, you say," as my earlier note, our priority is to protect — as my earlier note, our priority is to protect the business and the thousands who operated under the same _ thousands who operated under the same rules and did not get into difficulties." can you see that? yes, _ difficulties." can you see that? yes. i— difficulties." can you see that? yes. i can _ difficulties." can you see that? yes, ican. by difficulties." can you see that? yes, i can. by this stage, as i yes, ican. by this stage, as i think— yes, i can. by this stage, as i think we _ yes, i can. by this stage, as i think we are going to see, august 2015. _ think we are going to see, august 2015. the — think we are going to see, august 2015, the post office and you personally were aware of at least three _ personally were aware of at least three bugs that had impacted on subpostmaster balances in different ways. _ subpostmaster balances in different ways, correct? subpostmaster balances in different ways. correct?—

subpostmaster balances in different ways, correct? yes. why are you still happy — ways, correct? yes. why are you still happy to — ways, correct? yes. why are you still happy to identify _ ways, correct? 93 why are you still happy to identify as a priority— still happy to identify as a priority to wheel out the message again— priority to wheel out the message again that — priority to wheel out the message again that because many branches had not complained, that supported the post office position that those who were complaining, their complaints should _ were complaining, their complaints should not— were complaining, their complaints should not really be attributed to horizon? — should not really be attributed to horizon? i�*m should not really be attributed to horizon? �* , , ., should not really be attributed to horizon? , , ., ., horizon? i'm sorry first of all because this _ horizon? i'm sorry first of all because this reads _ horizon? i'm sorry first of all because this reads badly - horizon? i'm sorry first of all. because this reads badly today. horizon? i'm sorry first of all- because this reads badly today. at this point in time, my recollection is that the post office team working on the cases of the subpostmasters, there were 136 that went into the scheme and were being investigated, i and the board had been given the information that no issue had been found that had caused the problems

for those subpostmasters, either as a result of the horizon system or, and i'm sure in some cases they had found something that the post office itself had not done correctly, but in my mind i was of the understanding that the cases we were looking at were a minority and the vast majority of those operating in the business had not encountered the same issues. flan the business had not encountered the same issues-— same issues. can i “ust test you on our louic same issues. can i “ust test you on your logic there. _ same issues. can i just test you on your logic there. why _ same issues. can i just test you on your logic there. why does - same issues. can i just test you on your logic there. why does that - your logic there. why does that logic— your logic there. why does that logic follow? there are lots of subpostmasters for him horizon is working. _ subpostmasters for him horizon is working, we should concentrate on them. _ working, we should concentrate on them. they— working, we should concentrate on them, they are our priority, not the people _ them, they are our priority, not the people for— them, they are our priority, not the people for whom it is not working, who complain about a bug, error or defect? _ who complain about a bug, error or defect? ., , , , . who complain about a bug, error or defect? ., , , : defect? two responses. we were both concentrating — defect? two responses. we were both concentrating on _ defect? two responses. we were both concentrating on those _

defect? two responses. we were both concentrating on those who _ defect? two responses. we were both concentrating on those who had - concentrating on those who had raised issues individually and that was part of the scheme. that raised issues individually and that was part of the scheme.— raised issues individually and that was part of the scheme. that is not our was part of the scheme. that is not your priority. _ was part of the scheme. that is not your priority, according _ was part of the scheme. that is not your priority, according to - was part of the scheme. that is not your priority, according to this. - then this is... this is badly worded. then this is... this is badly worded-— then this is... this is badly worded. , , , ., i] then this is... this is badly worded. , , , ., [m worded. why is it badly worded? i am “u: calin two worded. why is it badly worded? i am juggling two priorities _ worded. why is it badly worded? i am juggling two priorities and _ worded. why is it badly worded? i am juggling two priorities and i _ worded. why is it badly worded? i am juggling two priorities and i am - juggling two priorities and i am only talking about one here. that would have _ only talking about one here. that would have been _ only talking about one here. that would have been a _ only talking about one here. that would have been a more acceptable way to— would have been a more acceptable way to say— would have been a more acceptable way to say things. and no doubt you wish you _ way to say things. and no doubt you wish you had. but you did not. you said. _ wish you had. but you did not. you said. "our— wish you had. but you did not. you said, "our priority is to protect the people _ said, "our priority is to protect the people who are not complaining." that was— the people who are not complaining." that was not— the people who are not complaining." that was not how i intended it to be read. we had just spent three years investigating with second sight, and i accept all of the things that went wrong through that process, which i'm sure we will come onto, but we had to prioritise more than any other time in the post office

looking into issues raised by individuals. i had been told and the inquiry has heard other people say the same, that nothing had been found. my understanding at this time was that the way the business was operating was an acceptable way. and what i was trying to say here was that we needed to make sure that the business as it was operating remained a priority for us. i was not excluding the others, but it can be read and i accept it. tastes not excluding the others, but it can be read and i accept it.— be read and i accept it. was this a messaue be read and i accept it. was this a message that _ be read and i accept it. was this a message that was _ be read and i accept it. was this a message that was also _ be read and i accept it. was this a i message that was also disseminated within— message that was also disseminated within the _ message that was also disseminated within the business, and in particular— within the business, and in particular to those who worked the help desks? when they responded to calls from _ help desks? when they responded to calls from distressed subpostmasters? the system works for everyone _ subpostmasters? the system works for everyone else, it isjust you that is the _ everyone else, it isjust you that is the problem. not the system. no,

there is no — is the problem. not the system. no, there is no way _ is the problem. not the system. idrr, there is no way that the organisation would have disseminated something like that. the people who worked in the call centres, and i visited on a number of occasions and listened into calls, were very keen to make sure that they gave the help to make sure that they gave the help to the people who found in. but i am very sorry because i am very aware that so many subpostmasters found in so many times and were talking over a 20 year period, but found in so many times and were not given the help they need it.— many times and were not given the help they need it. worse than that, the were help they need it. worse than that, they were told _ help they need it. worse than that, they were told that _ help they need it. worse than that, they were told that "you" _ help they need it. worse than that, they were told that "you" are - help they need it. worse than that, they were told that "you" are the i they were told that "you" are the problem. — they were told that "you" are the problem, you are the only person that is— problem, you are the only person that is complaining about this. | that is complaining about this. i have heard that. i cannot comment on individual cases, and i'm very sorry that that was the case.— that that was the case. separately, b this that that was the case. separately, by this time. _ that that was the case. separately, by this time, august _ that that was the case. separately, by this time, august 2015, - that that was the case. separately, by this time, august 2015, you - that that was the case. separately, by this time, august 2015, you had | by this time, august 2015, you had not seen _ by this time, august 2015, you had not seen the clerk and vice of the 15th not seen the clerk and vice of the i5th of— not seen the clerk and vice of the 15th ofjuly— not seen the clerk and vice of the 15th ofjuly about jenkins, but you had i_ 15th ofjuly about jenkins, but you had i think— 15th ofjuly about jenkins, but you had i think been made aware that there _ had i think been made aware that there was— had i think been made aware that there was a problem with the fujitsu

expert. _ there was a problem with the fujitsu expert, which could create a duty of further _ expert, which could create a duty of further disclosure that might undermine past criminal convictions. i'm summarising what you say in your statement _ i'm summarising what you say in your statement. . , . i'm summarising what you say in your statement._ was _ i'm summarising what you say in your statement._ was that - i'm summarising what you say in your statement._ was that not i i'm summarising what you say in your statement._ was that not a l statement. yes, yes. was that not a cause for concern _ statement. yes, yes. was that not a cause for concern when _ statement. yes, yes. was that not a cause for concern when there - statement. yes, yes. was that not a cause for concern when there were l cause for concern when there were repeated _ cause for concern when there were repeated complaints in respect of horizon? — repeated complaints in respect of horizon? " — repeated complaints in respect of horizon? " "i've been told that there's— horizon? " "i've been told that there's been an issue raised about there's been an issue raised about the evidence given by the fujitsu expert _ the evidence given by the fujitsu expert which may create a duty of further _ expert which may create a duty of further disclosure. " expert which may create a duty of further disclosure." why would your priority— further disclosure." why would your priority still— further disclosure." why would your priority still be on protecting the business — priority still be on protecting the business in light of that? my priority- -- — business in light of that? my priority--- i— business in light of that? m priority... i had a business in light of that? m: priority... i had a number business in light of that? m; priority... i had a number of priorities as chief executive. to your question about the simon clerk advice and garethjenkins, the way that had been explained to me was

that had been explained to me was that gareth jenkins that had been explained to me was that garethjenkins had not disclosed, and i cannot remember if it was one or two bugs, which were not relevant to the case he had been giving evidence on. and i can remember a conversation with leslie sule incredibly clearly because she was incredibly frustrated that she was incredibly frustrated that she was going to be stood down as what we understood at the time to be an expert witness, having not shared information which was not relevant to a case. and the logic did not seem to stand scrutiny, but what was explained by the lord is that because he had done that he then had to be stood down. i do not think that had any... iterate to be stood down. i do not think that had any. . ._ to be stood down. i do not think that had an ~ ., ., ., that had any... we are going to come back to this — that had any... we are going to come back to this in — that had any... we are going to come back to this in detail. _ that had any... we are going to come back to this in detail. is _ that had any... we are going to come back to this in detail. is that - that had any... we are going to come back to this in detail. is that your - back to this in detail. is that your memory— back to this in detail. is that your memory of— back to this in detail. is that your memory of what you were told? that this was— memory of what you were told? that this was completely illogical. why are we _ this was completely illogical. why are we standing down this fujitsu man? _ are we standing down this fu'itsu man? . . are we standing down this fu'itsu man? , . :, are we standing down this fu'itsu man? , ., ., _, ., , man? yes, i had two conversations. i don't know —

man? yes, i had two conversations. i don't know whether _ man? yes, i had two conversations. i don't know whether you _ man? yes, i had two conversations. i don't know whether you want - man? yes, i had two conversations. i don't know whether you want to - man? yes, i had two conversations. i| don't know whether you want to cover that now or later.— that now or later. neither of these conversations _ that now or later. neither of these conversations are _ that now or later. neither of these conversations are documented, i conversations are documented, correct? — conversations are documented, correct? i— conversations are documented, correct? ~ , . , correct? i think they are in my statement. — correct? i think they are in my statement, actually. - correct? i think they are in my statement, actually. there - correct? i think they are in my statement, actually. there is| correct? i think they are in my l statement, actually. there is no further documentation. so the first i learnt was i bumped into lesley sule in the corridor, she was looking particularly grumpy. she said, "ijust found looking particularly grumpy. she said, "i just found out... looking particularly grumpy. she said, "ijust found out... 7 and i didn't remember the name and there is document that shows that. she said the fujitsu expert had been stood down because he had not disclosed to bugs which were not relevant in the case where he had given evidence. i then had a further conversation with susan crichton to say this does not quite make sense to me. why is he being stood down? and she explained that there was a duty of disclosure now, that what we had to do was go back over the cases where he had given evidence and inform them of this event. and

where he had given evidence and inform them of this event. and “ust ca -iturin inform them of this event. and “ust capturing things. i inform them of this event. and “ust capturing things, we i inform them of this event. and “ust capturing things, we know�* inform them of this event. and just capturing things, we know there i inform them of this event. and just l capturing things, we know there was written _ capturing things, we know there was written advice from an independent barrister~ _ written advice from an independent barrister. do you know why neither of them _ barrister. do you know why neither of them said, paula, it is all explained _ of them said, paula, it is all explained here? | of them said, paula, it is all explained here?— of them said, paula, it is all exlained here? . ., , , ., explained here? i have absolutely no idea. ifind explained here? i have absolutely no idea- i find it— explained here? i have absolutely no idea. i find it unacceptable. - explained here? i have absolutely no idea. i find it unacceptable. do i explained here? i have absolutely no idea. i find it unacceptable. do you i idea. i find it unacceptable. do you think they were _ idea. i find it unacceptable. do you think they were trying _ idea. i find it unacceptable. do you think they were trying to _ idea. i find it unacceptable. do you think they were trying to protect i think they were trying to protect you from — think they were trying to protect you from information that you would find difficult to hear? no. "we best not tell find difficult to hear? "we best not tell the find difficult to hear? rip. "we best not tell the boss." find difficult to hear? no. "we best not tell the boss." no, _ find difficult to hear? no. "we best not tell the boss." no, absolutely i not tell the boss." no, absolutely not. not tell the boss." no, absolutely not- because _ not tell the boss." no, absolutely not. because the _ not tell the boss." no, absolutely not. because the account - not tell the boss." no, absolutely not. because the account you i not tell the boss." no, absolutely| not. because the account you have iiven is not. because the account you have given is very _ not. because the account you have given is very different _ not. because the account you have given is very different from - not. because the account you have given is very different from what . given is very different from what the documents reveal.— given is very different from what the documents reveal. yes, i agree, i should the documents reveal. yes, i agree, i should have _ the documents reveal. yes, i agree, i should have seen _ the documents reveal. yes, i agree, i should have seen them, _ the documents reveal. yes, i agree, i should have seen them, the i the documents reveal. yes, i agree, i should have seen them, the board| i should have seen them, the board should have seen them. susan crichton explained to the board that it was not the way that was working in the post office. they should have been. to the point about people hiding bad news from me. now, in the contrary, i put in place a campaign at one stage that was called bad news is good news to encourage

people to share different information —— difficult information. because it is very important when you're running an organisation, particularly at the level of chief that that is the sort of information that is shared to you. of information that is shared to ou. . ., of information that is shared to ou. ., ., .. of information that is shared to ou. . :, :, . of information that is shared to ou. . ., :, y . you. can i move to my fifth topic. you knew — you. can i move to my fifth topic. you knew and _ you. can i move to my fifth topic. you knew and worked _ you. can i move to my fifth topic. you knew and worked very i you. can i move to my fifth topic. | you knew and worked very closely with alistair cameron for a number of years. _ with alistair cameron for a number of years, didn't you? and presumably you trusted _ of years, didn't you? and presumably you trusted him? he told us last week— you trusted him? he told us last week from — you trusted him? he told us last week from the time he joined the business. — week from the time he joined the business, january 2015, until the time _ business, january 2015, until the time that— business, january 2015, until the time that you left, april 2019, that you did _ time that you left, april 2019, that you did not — time that you left, april 2019, that you did not believe that there had been _ you did not believe that there had been any— you did not believe that there had been any miscarriages ofjustice. in his words. — been any miscarriages ofjustice. in his words, "you could not get there emotionally." did you believe right up emotionally." did you believe right up until— emotionally." did you believe right up until the point at which you left the business that there had been no miscarriages ofjustice? |

the business that there had been no miscarriages ofjustice? i was the business that there had been no miscarriages ofjustice?— miscarriages of “ustice? i was told multi - le miscarriages ofjustice? i was told multiple times, _ miscarriages ofjustice? i was told multiple times, and _ miscarriages ofjustice? i was told multiple times, and i'm _ miscarriages ofjustice? i was told multiple times, and i'm very i miscarriages ofjustice? i was told | multiple times, and i'm very aware of the questions being asked around the select committee in 2015, that there had been no evidence found, there had been no evidence found, the inquiry heard the week before where fujitsu records had been checked to see whether there was a scar, and everything was golden. i was told that nothing had been found. 50 was told that nothing had been found. , ., , was told that nothing had been found. , . , ., was told that nothing had been found. , ., , ., ,., found. so is the answer that you don't believe _ found. so is the answer that you don't believe right _ found. so is the answer that you don't believe right until - found. so is the answer that you don't believe right until you i found. so is the answer that you don't believe right until you left| don't believe right until you left the business in april 2019 that there — the business in april 2019 that there had been no miscarriages of justice? _ there had been no miscarriages of justice? |— there had been no miscarriages of “ustice? ~ there had been no miscarriages of “ustice? ,, ., �* , there had been no miscarriages of justice?— is - justice? i think that's right. is that because _ justice? i think that's right. is that because you _ justice? i think that's right. is that because you could i justice? i think that's right. is that because you could not, i justice? i think that's right. is| that because you could not, at justice? i think that's right. is i that because you could not, at an emotional— that because you could not, at an emotional level, reach the opposite view? _ emotional level, reach the opposite view? ., emotional level, reach the opposite view? :, , :, emotional level, reach the opposite view? ., , ., , ., emotional level, reach the opposite view? :, , :, , ., ., view? no, you will see there are two or three examples _ view? no, you will see there are two or three examples in _ view? no, you will see there are two or three examples in documentation | or three examples in documentation where, even in 2016, i received a munication from tim maccormack, who

i did speak to or communicate with, and tim pointed out that mrs misra... i do not remember the details. i immediately reacted to that by asking tom weschler to look into it, and in the e—mail i say "i want you to suspend anyjudgment around sparrow and that we will take whatever conclusion comes from this", there's my not be the exact words. mrs misra's case was left with the... mr

words. mrs misra's case was left with the- - -_ words. mrs misra's case was left withthe... ~ ., ., , ., ., with the... mr cameron is wrong to su: est with the... mr cameron is wrong to suggest that _ with the... mr cameron is wrong to suggest that you — with the... mr cameron is wrong to suggest that you believed - with the... mr cameron is wrong to suggest that you believed there i with the... mr cameron is wrong to | suggest that you believed there had been no _ suggest that you believed there had been no miscarriages ofjustice, because — been no miscarriages ofjustice, because you could not reach the opposite — because you could not reach the opposite view at an emotional level? you cannot— opposite view at an emotional level? you cannot be a chief executive and rely solely on your emotions, no. mr cameron told us that you were clear in your— cameron told us that you were clear in your conviction from the day he joined _ in your conviction from the day he joined until— in your conviction from the day he joined until the day that you left that nothing had gone wrong. is that correct? _ that nothing had gone wrong. is that correct? was that your belief? | correct? was that your belief? i don't correct? was that your belief? don't think correct? was that your belief? i don't think he is right in that view. ~ , ., . ., don't think he is right in that view. ~ . ., view. were you clear in your convictions? _ view. were you clear in your convictions? that _ view. were you clear in your convictions? that nothing i view. were you clear in your. convictions? that nothing had view. were you clear in your- convictions? that nothing had gone wrong _ convictions? that nothing had gone wrong in _ convictions? that nothing had gone wrong in your time at the post office? — wrong in your time at the post office? so— wrong in your time at the post office? so far as her eyes and was concerned — office? so far as her eyes and was concerned and the prosecution of subpostmasters was concerned? no, not at all. there _ subpostmasters was concerned? ijrr, not at all. there were problems with horizon all of the way through my ten year. mr horizon all of the way through my ten ear. ~ ., ., ., , ., ten year. mr cameron told us that ou never ten year. mr cameron told us that you never deviated _ ten year. mr cameron told us that you never deviated from - ten year. mr cameron told us that you never deviated from our- ten year. mr cameron told us that | you never deviated from our seem ten year. mr cameron told us that i you never deviated from our seem to doubt _ you never deviated from our seem to doubt that _ you never deviated from our seem to doubt that. is that right? that you never— doubt that. is that right? that you never deviated from your past. no, he is completely — never deviated from your past. ijrr, he is completely wrong.

can we turn, please come toj ar b 000001. — can we turn, please come toj ar b 000001. and these are the notes of a meeting _ 000001. and these are the notes of a meeting between you. we canjust see you at— meeting between you. we canjust see you at the _ meeting between you. we canjust see you at the foot of the screen there. other— you at the foot of the screen there. other post — you at the foot of the screen there. other post office personnel and a group _ other post office personnel and a group of— other post office personnel and a group of mps, including lord arbuthnot, yes? it is dated the 18th ofjune. _ arbuthnot, yes? it is dated the 18th ofjune, 2012. arbuthnot, yes? it is dated the 18th ofjune. 2012.— arbuthnot, yes? it is dated the 18th ofjune, 2012. yes. and can we look, lease, ofjune, 2012. yes. and can we look, please. at — ofjune, 2012. yes. and can we look, please. at page _ ofjune, 2012. .93 and can we look, please, at page two. where you are recorded _ please, at page two. where you are recorded as — please, at page two. where you are recorded as saying, "temptation is an issue. _ recorded as saying, "temptation is an issue, but trust in the post office — an issue, but trust in the post office brand is absolutely paramount. the post office needs competent, trustworthy people on staff. _ competent, trustworthy people on staff. and — competent, trustworthy people on staff, and its processes and systems must _ staff, and its processes and systems must be _ staff, and its processes and systems must be transparent and work well.

of the _ must be transparent and work well. of the 1800 subpostmasters and mistresses currently employed, only a tiny— mistresses currently employed, only a tiny numberare mistresses currently employed, only a tiny number are present in cases where _ a tiny number are present in cases where there — a tiny number are present in cases where there is an issue of alleged fraud _ where there is an issue of alleged fraud involving the horizon system, the problem therefore is relatively small." _ the problem therefore is relatively small.“ . the problem therefore is relatively small." . ., , the problem therefore is relatively small.“ ,, ., , ':~:::: the problem therefore is relatively small.",, ., , ':~:::: , small." she actually said 1800, but it is 11.800. _ small." she actually said 1800, but it is 11,800. thank _ small." she actually said 1800, but it is 11,800. thank you, _ small." she actually said 1800, but it is 11,800. thank you, sir. - small." she actually said 1800, but it is 11,800. thank you, sir. the i it is 11,800. thank you, sir. the roblem it is 11,800. thank you, sir. the problem is _ it is 11,800. thank you, sir. the problem is relatively _ it is 11,800. thank you, sir. the problem is relatively small. i it is 11,800. thank you, sir. the i problem is relatively small. "every keystroke — problem is relatively small. "every keystroke used by anyone using the system _ keystroke used by anyone using the system is _ keystroke used by anyone using the system is recorded and auditable. when _ system is recorded and auditable. when things go wrong in a supposed office. _ when things go wrong in a supposed office, there is a helpline staff can call— office, there is a helpline staff can call during office hours and back-up — can call during office hours and back—up staff who will help further if things— back—up staff who will help further if things go wrong. it is here that issues _ if things go wrong. it is here that issues are — if things go wrong. it is here that issues are normally resolved." "it appears _ issues are normally resolved." "it appears that some subpostmasters have been borrowing money from the post office _ have been borrowing money from the post office account or tell in the same _ post office account or tell in the same way— post office account or tell in the same way they might do any retail business. — same way they might do any retail business. this is not the way the post _ business. this is not the way the post office — business. this is not the way the post office works. post office cash is public _ post office works. post office cash is public money and the post office must _ is public money and the post office must recover it if any goes

missing." _ must recover it if any goes missing." "every case taken to prosecution that involves the horizon — prosecution that involves the horizon system thus far has found in favour— horizon system thus far has found in favour of— horizon system thus far has found in favour of the post office." and then a similar— favour of the post office." and then a similar line," going back to andrew bridgen question, there had not been a case investigated where the horizon system — investigated where the horizon system had been found to be at fault." — system had been found to be at fault." is — system had been found to be at fault." is what we read here every case _ fault." is what we read here every case taken — fault." is what we read here every case taken to prosecution has found in favour— case taken to prosecution has found in favour of— case taken to prosecution has found in favour of the post office, there hasn't _ in favour of the post office, there hasn't been a case investigated where — hasn't been a case investigated where the horizon system has been found _ where the horizon system has been found to _ where the horizon system has been found to be at fault, a reflection of the _ found to be at fault, a reflection of the unwavering belief that mr cameron— of the unwavering belief that mr cameron spoke about? that nothing had gone _ cameron spoke about? that nothing had gone wrong, there had been no

miscarriages ofjustice, and you refused — miscarriages ofjustice, and you refused to— miscarriages ofjustice, and you refused to deviate from those lines? it is refused to deviate from those lines? it is not _ refused to deviate from those lines? it is not a _ refused to deviate from those lines? it is not a representation of that. it is not a representation of that. it is, though, a representation of the information that i was given. in i thinkjanuary 2012, the general counsel told the board exactly this, and the inquiry has seen this statement i think made by other colleagues. it was an understanding in the organisation which i now know is completely incorrect. you in the organisation which i now know is completely incorrect.— is completely incorrect. you know it is completely incorrect. you know it is incorrect — is completely incorrect. you know it is incorrect because _ is completely incorrect. you know it is incorrect because you _ is completely incorrect. you know it is incorrect because you know- is completely incorrect. you know it is incorrect because you know that i is incorrect because you know that by the _ is incorrect because you know that by the time — is incorrect because you know that by the time you are speaking here nicola _ by the time you are speaking here nicola arch, the branch manager of chalford _ nicola arch, the branch manager of chalford hill post office in stroud, gloucestershire, having been accused of stealing _ gloucestershire, having been accused of stealing £24,000, had been acquitted by a jury in april 2012 having — acquitted by a jury in april 2012 having blamed horizon for the alleged —

having blamed horizon for the alleged shortfalls at her branch, don't _ alleged shortfalls at her branch, don't you? | alleged shortfalls at her branch, don't ou? alleged shortfalls at her branch, don't you?— don't you? i did not know that information. _ don't you? i did not know that information. you _ don't you? i did not know that information. you know - don't you? i did not know that information. you know now. i don't you? i did not know that i information. you know now. you don't you? i did not know that - information. you know now. you know now that maureen _ information. you know now. you know now that maureen mckelvey, - information. you know now. you know now that maureen mckelvey, the i now that maureen mckelvey, the supposed mistress in omagh, accused of stealing _ supposed mistress in omagh, accused of stealing £30,000, had been acquitted by a jury having blamed horizon _ acquitted by a jury having blamed horizon for the cause of losses of money. _ horizon for the cause of losses of money. of— horizon for the cause of losses of money, of which she was accused of stealing. _ money, of which she was accused of stealing. you know that now. you know— stealing. you know that now. you know now — stealing. you know that now. you know now that susan palmer, the supposed — know now that susan palmer, the supposed mistress at grange post office _ supposed mistress at grange post office in— supposed mistress at grange post office in rayleigh, had been acquitted by a jury injanuary office in rayleigh, had been acquitted by a jury in january 2007. mrs palmer— acquitted by a jury in january 2007. mrs palmer having blamed horizon at trial for— mrs palmer having blamed horizon at trial for the _ mrs palmer having blamed horizon at trial for the losses said to have been _ trial for the losses said to have been attributed to her. why were you telling these parliamentarians that every prosecution involving the horizon to be my— prosecution involving the horizon to be my arising season boot system had been successful? i be my arising season boot system had been successful?—

been successful? i fully accept now that