�*fihafi don't you? i did not know that information. _ don't you? i did not know that information. you _ don't you? i did not know that information. you know - don't you? i did not know that information. you know now. l don't you? i did not know that i information. you know now. you don't you? i did not know that - information. you know now. you know now that maureen _ information. you know now. you know now that maureen mckelvey, - information. you know now. you know now that maureen mckelvey, the - now that maureen mckelvey, the supposed mistress in omagh, accused of stealing _ supposed mistress in omagh, accused of stealing £30,000, had been acquitted by a jury having blamed horizon _ acquitted by a jury having blamed horizon for the cause of losses of money. _ horizon for the cause of losses of money, of— horizon for the cause of losses of money, of which she was accused of stealing _ money, of which she was accused of stealing. you know that now. you know_ stealing. you know that now. you know now — stealing. you know that now. you know now that susan palmer, the swposed — know now that susan palmer, the supposed mistress at grange post office _ supposed mistress at grange post office in_ supposed mistress at grange post office in rayleigh, had been acquitted by a jury injanuary office in rayleigh, had been acquitted by a jury in january 2007. mrs palmer— acquitted by a jury in january 2007. mrs palmer having blamed horizon at trial for— mrs palmer having blamed horizon at trial for the _ mrs palmer having blamed horizon at trial for the losses said to have been _ trial for the losses said to have been attributed to her. why were you telling these parliamentarians that every prosecution involving the horizon to be my— prosecution involving the horizon to be my arising season boot system had been successful? i be my arising season boot system had been successful?—

been successful? i fully accept now that the post _ been successful? i fully accept now that the post office... _ been successful? i fully accept now that the post office... excuse - been successful? i fully accept now that the post office... excuse me. | that the post office... excuse me. the post office new that, i completely accept it, personally i didn't know that, and i'm incredibly sorry that happened to those people into so many others. you sorry that happened to those people into so many others.— into so many others. you have received a _ into so many others. you have received a detailed _ into so many others. you have received a detailed briefing . into so many others. you havej received a detailed briefing for into so many others. you have - received a detailed briefing for the purposes— received a detailed briefing for the purposes of this meeting, hadn't you? _ purposes of this meeting, hadn't ou? , . purposes of this meeting, hadn't you?_ there - purposes of this meeting, hadn't you?_ there had - purposes of this meeting, hadn't you?_ there had been you? yes, i had. there had been successive _ you? yes, i had. there had been successive drafts _ you? yes, i had. there had been successive drafts of _ you? yes, i had. there had been successive drafts of a _ you? yes, i had. there had been successive drafts of a briefing i you? yes, i had. there had been l successive drafts of a briefing pack prepared _ successive drafts of a briefing pack prepared for you, and it was about 20 pages — prepared for you, and it was about 20 pages long, the briefing pack. yes, _ 20 pages long, the briefing pack. yes. i_ 20 pages long, the briefing pack. yes. ican— 20 pages long, the briefing pack. yes, i can remember it. can 20 pages long, the briefing pack. yes, i can remember it.— look at the poll? this is the final version —

look at the poll? this is the final version of— look at the poll? this is the final version of the briefing pack for this very— version of the briefing pack for this very meeting. we are familiar with it _ this very meeting. we are familiar with it if— this very meeting. we are familiar with it if we — this very meeting. we are familiar with it if we go to page two, we can see the _ with it if we go to page two, we can see the agenda and how the meeting was chunked up, he was going to speak— was chunked up, he was going to speak to — was chunked up, he was going to speak to which issue, and you were going _ speak to which issue, and you were going to _ speak to which issue, and you were going to speak at .3 to the background. then if we go over the pa-e background. then if we go over the page to _ background. then if we go over the page to page three we can see what alice perkins was going to deliver as key— alice perkins was going to deliver as key messages, and over the page to page _ as key messages, and over the page to page four we can see your section — to page four we can see your section. , to page four we can see your section.- topic - to page four we can see your section. yes. topic three, background, _ section. yes. topic three, background, and - section. yes. topic three, background, and we - section. yes. topic three, background, and we can l section. yes topic three, background, and we can see all section. 19:3 topic three, background, and we can see all of the bullet— background, and we can see all of the bullet points in detail on that page. _ the bullet points in detail on that page, yes? the bullet points in detail on that page. yes?— the bullet points in detail on that page, yes? yes. where does it say there that every _ page, yes? 193 where does it say there that every case taken to prosecution that involves the horizon — prosecution that involves the horizon system has been found in

favour— horizon system has been found in favour of— horizon system has been found in favour of the post office? i�*m horizon system has been found in favour of the post office?- favour of the post office? i'm not sure that it _ favour of the post office? i'm not sure that it does, _ favour of the post office? i'm not sure that it does, does _ favour of the post office? i'm not sure that it does, does it? - favour of the post office? i'm not sure that it does, does it? it - sure that it does, does it? it doesn't. why does it say there that there _ doesn't. why does it say there that there had _ doesn't. why does it say there that there had not been a case investigated by the horizon system had been _ investigated by the horizon system had been found to be at fault? i don't had been found to be at fault? don't see had been found to be at fault? i don't see it. where _ had been found to be at fault? i don't see it. where does - had been found to be at fault? i don't see it. where does it - had been found to be at fault? i don't see it. where does it say l don't see it. where does it say there anything _ don't see it. where does it say there anything about - don't see it. where does it say i there anything about temptation don't see it. where does it say - there anything about temptation and sub—postmaster is having their hands in the _ sub—postmaster is having their hands in the tilt. _ sub—postmaster is having their hands in the till, treating it like a retail— in the till, treating it like a retail business?— in the till, treating it like a retail business? :, , ., , retail business? that i remember was discussed in — retail business? that i remember was discussed in the _ retail business? that i remember was discussed in the meeting. _ retail business? that i remember was discussed in the meeting. yes, - discussed in the meeting. yes, why does it say — discussed in the meeting. yes, why does it say that _ discussed in the meeting. yes, why does it say that here? _ discussed in the meeting. yes, why does it say that here? where - discussed in the meeting. yes, why does it say that here? where does| discussed in the meeting. yes, why| does it say that here? where does it say here _ does it say that here? where does it say here that every keystroke is reported? — say here that every keystroke is reported? | say here that every keystroke is re orted? 1' say here that every keystroke is re orted? ,, ., say here that every keystroke is re orted? ,, :, .,, say here that every keystroke is reorted? ,, :, .,, , , reported? i think that was picked up b leslie reported? i think that was picked up by leslie saul- _ reported? i think that was picked up by leslie saul. where _ reported? i think that was picked up by leslie saul. where does - reported? i think that was picked up by leslie saul. where does it - by leslie saul. where does it say that here? _ by leslie saul. where does it say that here? why _ by leslie saul. where does it say that here? why if— by leslie saul. where does it say that here? why if it _ by leslie saul. where does it say that here? why if it isn't - by leslie saul. where does it say that here? why if it isn't there i by leslie saul. where does it say that here? why if it isn't there it| that here? why if it isn't there it isn't _ that here? why if it isn't there it isn't. where is it where they say,

in every— isn't. where is it where they say, in every case _ isn't. where is it where they say, in every case it has been prosecuted we have _ in every case it has been prosecuted we have one, not appearing this meeting — we have one, not appearing this meeting but to this group of parliamentarians?— meeting but to this group of parliamentarians? meeting but to this group of arliamentarians? 9 , :, �* ., parliamentarians? when you're in a meetin: parliamentarians? when you're in a meeting you _ parliamentarians? when you're in a meeting you take _ parliamentarians? when you're in a meeting you take the _ parliamentarians? when you're in a meeting you take the briefing - parliamentarians? when you're in a meeting you take the briefing and l meeting you take the briefing and with you, and then you supplement it or raise things that you consider also to the meeting. is it or raise things that you consider also to the meeting.— or raise things that you consider also to the meeting. is it not the case that has _ also to the meeting. is it not the case that has gone _ also to the meeting. is it not the case that has gone through - also to the meeting. is it not the - case that has gone through process, that the _ case that has gone through process, that the right things are there, that the right things are there, that we — that the right things are there, that we have seen email exchanges between _ that we have seen email exchanges between relevant people, it, legal, to get— between relevant people, it, legal, to get the _ between relevant people, it, legal, to get the key messages recorded right~ _ to get the key messages recorded right~ are — to get the key messages recorded right. are you saying that you put this to _ right. are you saying that you put this to one — right. are you saying that you put this to one side and you freestyle in the _ this to one side and you freestyle in the meeting? not this to one side and you freestyle in the meeting?— this to one side and you freestyle in the meeting? not at all. i would have used the _ in the meeting? not at all. i would have used the briefing _ in the meeting? not at all. i would have used the briefing that - in the meeting? not at all. i would have used the briefing that he - in the meeting? not at all. i would i have used the briefing that he might briefing and i would add a tin, as

anyone does, forfurther briefing and i would add a tin, as anyone does, for further information as i thought was relevant. what i wanted to see, because i can see mrs hamilton sitting there, it is i did not realise at the time details of her case presented at the post office had more detail on the prosecution filed and was shared with us at the time, and i'm very sorry about that.— with us at the time, and i'm very sorry about that. very slowly, i'm bein: sorry about that. very slowly, i'm being attacked — sorry about that. very slowly, i'm being attacked by _ sorry about that. very slowly, i'm being attacked by groups. - sorry about that. very slowly, i'm being attacked by groups. i'm - sorry about that. very slowly, i'm being attacked by groups. i'm in i being attacked by groups. i'm in drips and the proper sense of the word. i noticed something landed on my face, then my hand, now my book. but please carry on to the break, and then we will see if i can avoid the drips. i and then we will see if i can avoid the dri s. :, �* ~' and then we will see if i can avoid the dris. :, �* ,, ., �*, the drips. i don't think that's tolerable _ the drips. i don't think that's tolerable for _ the drips. i don't think that's tolerable for you, _ the drips. i don't think that's tolerable for you, a - the drips. i don't think that's tolerable for you, a former l the drips. i don't think that's - tolerable for you, a former chinese water torture. tolerable for you, a former chinese watertorture. let's tolerable for you, a former chinese water torture. let's take the break now and _ water torture. let's take the break now and see if we can get that sorted — now and see if we can get that sorted. can be sent to quarter past?

yeah, _ sorted. can be sent to quarter past? yeah, fine — sorted. can be sent to quarter past? yeah, fine. you go with the usher and i will follow you.— yeah, fine. you go with the usher and i will follow you. another break within the post _ and i will follow you. another break within the post office _ within the post office inquiry there. this one, we had to testing there. this one, we had to testing the fire alarm, and this one was a leak, the chair of the post office horizon inquiry, so wyn williams, was saying there was a leak in the room so jason beer qc, counsel to the inquiry, suggested breakfor about five minutes or so. i think they will reconvene at about quarter past 11. a lot of details that we heard there, and at one point paula vennells actually began to get tearful, so let's look at some of the testimony she began giving evidence to the inquiry now. i would

'ust like to evidence to the inquiry now. i would just like to say. _ evidence to the inquiry now. i would just like to say, and _ evidence to the inquiry now. i would just like to say, and i'm _ evidence to the inquiry now. i would just like to say, and i'm grateful- just like to say, and i'm grateful for the opportunity to do this in person, how sorry i am for all the supposed masses and their families and others have suffered as a result of all of the matters that the inquiries have been looking into for so long. ifollowed inquiries have been looking into for so long. i followed and listened to all of the human impact statements, and i was very affected by them. i remember listening to one postmaster whose name i noted, who said that he would like somebody to go and stand outside his old post office with him so he could tell them exactly what he had been through. i would do that. i'm very, very sorry. i would also like to repeat repeat the apology that was in my witness statement to alan bates, and others, and to load arbuthnot, and those i worked with and i made their work so

much harder, and i'm sorry for that. paula vennells at the beginning, she issued the apology at the very beginning of today's's three days of giving evidence, and she was also pressed assurance during her witness statements that she had not been warned about the horizon system. in warned about the horizon system. in light of the information in your witness — light of the information in your witness statements you want given, in light— witness statements you want given, in light of— witness statements you want given, in light of the intelligence that you didn't see, and in light of the assurances — you didn't see, and in light of the assurances you tell us about in your witness _ assurances you tell us about in your witness statement that you were given _ witness statement that you were given by— witness statement that you were given by post office staff, do you think— given by post office staff, do you think you — given by post office staff, do you think you are the unluckiest ceo in the united — think you are the unluckiest ceo in the united kingdom? | think you are the unluckiest ceo in the united kingdom?— think you are the unluckiest ceo in the united kingdom? i was given much information. — the united kingdom? i was given much information, and _ the united kingdom? i was given much information, and does _ the united kingdom? i was given much information, and does inquiry - the united kingdom? i was given much information, and does inquiry has - information, and does inquiry has heard, there was information that i

wasn't given, and others didn't receive as well. one of my reflections on all of this is that i was too trusting, i did probe and i did ask questions, and i'm disappointed where information wasn't shared, and it has been very important time for me, as i have gone through all of the documentation that i have seen since, to plug some of those gaps and to remind me what i did see and perhaps haven't remembered. then there was also _ perhaps haven't remembered. then there was also particularly interesting exchange regarding a piece of evidence regarding text messages between paula vennells and her former colleague the head messages between paula vennells and herformer colleague the head of royal mail group, moya greene, in which paula vennells was asked by

jason beer a which paula vennells was asked by jason beer 3 qc about the text exchange with moya greene earlier this year. exchange with moya greene earlier this ear. ~ ., , exchange with moya greene earlier this ear. 9 :, , . ., this year. when it was clear the s stem this year. when it was clear the system was _ this year. when it was clear the system was at _ this year. when it was clear the system was at fault, _ this year. when it was clear the system was at fault, the - this year. when it was clear the system was at fault, the post . this year. when it was clear the - system was at fault, the post office should _ system was at fault, the post office should have raised a red flag, stop to proceedings, given people back their money and then tried to compensate them from the ruin this because _ compensate them from the ruin this because in— compensate them from the ruin this because in their lives. if you go down, — because in their lives. if you go down, the _ because in their lives. if you go down, the next page... keep going. you say— down, the next page... keep going. you say in _ down, the next page... keep going. you say in reply...

you will see in the course of that exchange. — you will see in the course of that exchange, moya greene accuses you of

knowing _ exchange, moya greene accuses you of knowina. , exchange, moya greene accuses you of knowing. yes. did you understand that to be an _ knowing. 193 did you understand that to be an accusation that you knew— that to be an accusation that you knew about bugs, errors of defects in horizon? — knew about bugs, errors of defects in horizon? 9, knew about bugs, errors of defects in horizon?— knew about bugs, errors of defects in horizon? :, , , :, in horizon? no, i understood this to be mo a, in horizon? no, i understood this to be moya. and _ in horizon? no, i understood this to be moya, and there _ in horizon? no, i understood this to be moya, and there is _ in horizon? no, i understood this to be moya, and there is a _ in horizon? no, i understood this to be moya, and there is a further - be moya, and there is a further series of exchanges and text were moya steps back a little bit from the challenges that she is putting here. i understood the moya had returned to the country earlier this year, that she had been listening to all of the information on the inquiry, and she was trying to square her memory with what she was hearing. 50. square her memory with what she was hearinu. 9, square her memory with what she was hearinu. ., .,, square her memory with what she was hearinu. :, .,, ., ., hearing. so, that was paula vennells. — hearing. so, that was paula vennells, we're _ hearing. so, that was paula vennells, we're just - hearing. so, that was paula vennells, we're just a - hearing. so, that was paula | vennells, we'rejust a break hearing. so, that was paula i vennells, we'rejust a break in hearing. so, that was paula - vennells, we're just a break in the post office it inquiry, but the idea that the former head of the royal mail group and that text message exchange said that, i think you

knew, it is a simple but a damning forward statement, which is revealed in that text message to paula vennells from her former colleague. this is something that some postmasters have long claimed. you are watching bbc news, as we watch the post office it inquiry. so, while we pause in that inquiry, and it is because of a leak in the room, we will be coming to it shortly, let's crossover live. i think that concept, the text message from the royal mail group, will be something making the headlines. i'm assuming there is a lot of reaction at the inquiry itself. i there is a lot of reaction at the inquiry itself-— there is a lot of reaction at the inquiry itself. ithink you knew. i

mean, inquiry itself. ithink you knew. i mean. saying — inquiry itself. ithink you knew. i mean, saying those _ inquiry itself. ithink you knew. i mean, saying those words - inquiry itself. ithink you knew. i mean, saying those words in - mean, saying those words in playwriting from the boss of royal mail group, moya greene, was quite a moment, even if that is something she believed at the time, we don't know she believes that now, it felt like a damning indictment, and this is something people in the room took note of, and there were those big moments, that was one of them, and another was the moment she apologised because she turned to face the people in the room, that included former some postmasters and some post mistresses, i want to turn to someone in the room, thank you so much for your time. you were suspended. is that right? that's riuht. suspended. is that right? that's right- that _ suspended. is that right? that's right. that had _ suspended. is that right? that's right. that had a _ suspended. is that right? that's right. that had a financial - suspended. is that right? that's| right. that had a financial impact on you. — right. that had a financial impact on you. of— right. that had a financial impact on you, of course. iwas right. that had a financial impact on you, of course. i was suspended before _ on you, of course. i was suspended before horizon. iwas on you, of course. i was suspended before horizon. i was suspended from two of— before horizon. i was suspended from two of my— before horizon. i was suspended from two of my own offices and i was of

the same — two of my own offices and i was of the same remote operating as a troubleshooter, so i was suspended both from _ troubleshooter, so i was suspended both from my own and a third post office _ both from my own and a third post office. :, both from my own and a third post office. 9, :, both from my own and a third post office. :, :, ., office. you mentioned that when it was raw that _ office. you mentioned that when it was raw that you _ office. you mentioned that when it was raw that you had _ office. you mentioned that when it was raw that you had problems - office. you mentioned that when it| was raw that you had problems with your account. riff was raw that you had problems with your account-— your account. of course, when you are suspended _ your account. of course, when you are suspended for _ your account. of course, when you are suspended for a _ your account. of course, when you are suspended for a time, - your account. of course, when you are suspended for a time, and - your account. of course, when you i are suspended for a time, and you're not getting _ are suspended for a time, and you're not getting anything coming into your household for a long period of time you _ your household for a long period of time you canjust imagine the financial— time you canjust imagine the financial situation. did i not want any orders — financial situation. did i not want any orders coming into my office afterwards? obviously not, because if i afterwards? obviously not, because if i get— afterwards? obviously not, because if i get suspended again, i'm going to be _ if i get suspended again, i'm going to be in— if i get suspended again, i'm going to be in serious trouble. this really highlights _

to be in serious trouble. this really highlights the - to be in serious trouble. ti 3 really highlights the feeling that you are always part