days and very often my days were back—to—back meetings. sometimes i would _ back—to—back meetings. sometimes i would see _ back—to—back meetings. sometimes i would see letters as they came in, sometimes — would see letters as they came in, sometimes i would see something on my pa's _ sometimes i would see something on my pa's desk and asked to look at it. my pa's desk and asked to look at it other_ my pa's desk and asked to look at it. 0thertimes my pa's desk and asked to look at it. other times i wouldn't get it until_ it. other times i wouldn't get it until it — it. other times i wouldn't get it until it came back from the executive correspondence team. it would _ executive correspondence team. it would depend on the day and diary. was there _ would depend on the day and diary. was there a — would depend on the day and diary. was there a way of keeping you informed of the temperature of the business in relation to this issue? how many complaints from sub—postmaster you are getting about horizon? or did it depend on you spotting something? this horizon? or did it depend on you spotting something?— horizon? or did it depend on you spotting something? this could have been done much _ spotting something? this could have been done much better. _ spotting something? this could have been done much better. there - spotting something? this could have | been done much better. there wasn't a regular— been done much better. there wasn't a regular report on it, but as you were _ a regular report on it, but as you were shown. _ a regular report on it, but as you were shown, this is over such a long period _ were shown, this is over such a long period of— were shown, this is over such a long period of time, that the challenges the organisation didn't keep a good enough _ the organisation didn't keep a good enough record on this type of matter — enough record on this type of matter. they were dealt with, they

were _ matter. they were dealt with, they were followed through, i believe, very thoroughly and he will attack by very thoroughly and he will attack try the _ very thoroughly and he will attack by the experts in business, fujitsu were _ by the experts in business, fujitsu were involved with it needed to be. i did were involved with it needed to be. i did not— were involved with it needed to be. i did not have a regular report on the numbers of these coming through, in the _ the numbers of these coming through, in the context of the timescale that spans, _ in the context of the timescale that spans, and — in the context of the timescale that spans, and the numbers coming through. — spans, and the numbers coming through. it _ spans, and the numbers coming through, it may not have seemed to people _ through, it may not have seemed to people they that many. when you put it together _ people they that many. when you put it together like this, it paints a different— it together like this, it paints a different issue and when we should have treeh— different issue and when we should have been looking at. this goes back to my— have been looking at. this goes back to my earlier point about institution versus the individual and institution versus the individual ahd i_ institution versus the individual and i get — institution versus the individual and i get the right type of data report~ — and i get the right type of data re ort. . ., and i get the right type of data reort. . ., ., . , report. can we move forward please to 2015. report. can we move forward please to 2015- page _ report. can we move forward please to 2015. page two _ report. can we move forward please to 2015. page two at _ report. can we move forward please to 2015. page two at the _ report. can we move forward please to 2015. page two at the foot, - to 2015. page two at the foot, please. an e—mailfrom to 2015. page two at the foot, please. an e—mail from you to angela van den boogaard, harry clark, rod

ismay and others. in march 2015, it is about eight complaint raised by the sub—postmaster at the ashton on trent sub—post office about scratchcards. you said i would appreciate your help, this complaint simply shouldn't have reached me. it is my understanding that the embassy and chesterfield are supposed to be on the alert for any calls that relate to missing money and especially any that relate to the sparrow themes, of which is clearly one and ensure they are dealt with. ie, i understood there was an urgent escalation process in place so we avoided unnecessary additional noise or reference to two horizon. as all the investigations have shown problems to be mostly branch operational issues rather than the system. what was the basis of your

understanding, that there was an urgent escalation process in place at the embassy and or chesterfield? —— and bsc. at the embassy and or chesterfield? -- and bsc— at the embassy and or chesterfield? -- and bsc. . . , -- and bsc. there were some changes that have been — -- and bsc. there were some changes that have been put _ -- and bsc. there were some changes that have been put in _ -- and bsc. there were some changes that have been put in place, _ -- and bsc. there were some changes that have been put in place, i - that have been put in place, i understood, in the mbsc, to deal with issues in training and support of sub—postmasters. when i remembered was the number of times a sub—postmaster culture to the mbsc that was— sub—postmaster culture to the mbsc that was logged and flagged, —— pulled _ that was logged and flagged, —— pulled through. there was a separate team that _ pulled through. there was a separate team that would contact sub—postmasters proactively to see if they— sub—postmasters proactively to see if they could help them. this is falling — if they could help them. this is falling out of the work that was done _ falling out of the work that was done on — falling out of the work that was done on horizon. and that is what i

was flagging here. i am done on horizon. and that is what i was flagging here. iam not done on horizon. and that is what i was flagging here. i am not very happy_ was flagging here. i am not very happy with my wording about avoiding any unnecessary references to horizon — any unnecessary references to horizon. ., . ., ., , any unnecessary references to horizon. ., . ., ., i, horizon. you are not the only person who doesn't — horizon. you are not the only person who doesn't like _ horizon. you are not the only person who doesn't like you _ horizon. you are not the only person who doesn't like you use _ horizon. you are not the only person who doesn't like you use of- horizon. you are not the only person who doesn't like you use of the - horizon. you are not the only person who doesn't like you use of the word j who doesn't like you use of the word noise. is that how it was seen at the top end of the post office, when sub—masters complaint, it is just noise? sub-masters complaint, it is 'ust noise? ., , ., . ., noise? no, it is not a good word, but ou noise? no, it is not a good word, but you have _ noise? no, it is not a good word, but you have seen _ noise? no, it is not a good word, but you have seen how— noise? no, it is not a good word, but you have seen how i - noise? no, it is not a good word, l but you have seen howl responded but you have seen how i responded personally — but you have seen how i responded personally to individual matters. it is a word _ personally to individual matters. it is a word i— personally to individual matters. it is a word i regret using. why personally to individual matters. it is a word i regret using.— personally to individual matters. it is a word i regret using. why was it use? does— is a word i regret using. why was it use? does it _ is a word i regret using. why was it use? does it in _ is a word i regret using. why was it use? does it in fact _ is a word i regret using. why was it use? does it in fact reflect - is a word i regret using. why was it use? does it in fact reflect the - use? does it in fact reflect the workings of the mind of those at the top end of the post office, that's a postmaster complaints about horizon are in factjust noise? i postmaster complaints about horizon are in factjust noise?— are in fact 'ust noise? i think it reflects are in fact 'ust noise? i think it reflects a — are in factjust noise? i think it reflects a wrong _ are in factjust noise? i think it| reflects a wrong understanding, are in factjust noise? i think it - reflects a wrong understanding, yes, that people believe that horizon worked — that people believe that horizon worked and this is me deploying a word _ worked and this is me deploying a word that — worked and this is me deploying a word that was unwise. it did not in

any way— word that was unwise. it did not in any way mean that i personally did not take _ any way mean that i personally did not take issues seriously when they -ot not take issues seriously when they got to— not take issues seriously when they got to me — not take issues seriously when they got to me i— not take issues seriously when they got to me. i regret this year, but there _ got to me. i regret this year, but there was— got to me. i regret this year, but there was an understanding that the system _ there was an understanding that the system worked, and they word shouldn't— system worked, and they word shouldn't have been used by me and other— shouldn't have been used by me and other people. can shouldn't have been used by me and other people-— other people. can we turn forwards, lease, ? look at the bottom of page one please. the mp for ashfield sent you an e—mail of the 28th of august 2015, saying i have been contacted by the above constituent in eastwood

nottinghamshire, and if we go to the other page please, you will see that the mp attached this to text here, and if you just scan the first couple of paragraphs, or the first five or six lines... and then about ten lines in, it says the entire losses had to be made good which they were. my initial questions are 2007-12, the post they were. my initial questions are 2007—12, the post office management knew of many offices in a similar

position. so was this a priori scratch at prearranged standard riposte as most sub—postmasters were told this? to isolate us? this is a reference to the six line, we were told as the only office in the country experiencing such problems. he is asking, or his mp is asking the , ., ., , he is asking, or his mp is asking the , ., . , . the question, was there a line delo ed the question, was there a line deployed that _ the question, was there a line deployed that you _ the question, was there a line deployed that you were - the question, was there a line deployed that you were the i the question, was there a line l deployed that you were the only office in the country experiencing such problems? was that a standardised riposte, was this to isolate us? do you know whether any investigation was carried out as to whether that was true or not? that a standard line was deployed by the post office? i standard line was deployed by the post office?— post office? i don't know any investigation _ post office? i don't know any investigation was _ post office? i don't know any

investigation was carried - post office? i don't know any| investigation was carried out. post office? i don't know any l investigation was carried out. i post office? i don't know any - investigation was carried out. i had never— investigation was carried out. i had never heard — investigation was carried out. i had never heard it as a standard line. ever _ never heard it as a standard line. ever i_ never heard it as a standard line. ever. i cannot imagine why it... well, _ ever. i cannot imagine why it... well, i— ever. i cannot imagine why it... well, i can— ever. i cannot imagine why it... well, i can imagine, but i didn't come _ well, i can imagine, but i didn't come across it, when a colleague in the call— come across it, when a colleague in the call centre may have said that, when _ the call centre may have said that, when they— the call centre may have said that, when they are dealing with hundreds of complaints, it is possible it seemed — of complaints, it is possible it seemed then it was the only one, but i seemed then it was the only one, but i have _ seemed then it was the only one, but i have no— seemed then it was the only one, but i have no recollection or understanding that it was a company line at— understanding that it was a company line at all _ understanding that it was a company line at all. , . understanding that it was a company line at all. _, , . , line at all. here, the complaint is about the call— line at all. here, the complaint is about the call centre, _ line at all. here, the complaint is about the call centre, it - line at all. here, the complaint is about the call centre, it is - line at all. here, the complaint is about the call centre, it is to - line at all. here, the complaint is about the call centre, it is to the | about the call centre, it is to the area sales manager —— the complete isn't about a call centre. was there a strategy to your acknowledged scratch acknowledged deployed to divide and conquer sub—postmasters in this way to say you are the only

person who has got this problem, pay up, it is in your contract? trio. person who has got this problem, pay up, it is in your contract? trial up, it is in your contract? no, i never came _ up, it is in your contract? no, i never came across _ up, it is in your contract? no, i never came across that - up, it is in your contract? no, i never came across that at - up, it is in your contract? no, i never came across that at all. | up, it is in your contract? no, i. never came across that at all. can we move on. _ never came across that at all. can we move on, these _ never came across that at all. can we move on, these two later in 2015. —— please. this is mr mackay again. every start at page three. —— mr maccormack. the 14th of october, mr maccormack. the 14th of october, mr maccormack to you. subject, it had to happen sooner or later. this may be the last to hear from me directly. it is the last chance for you to accept what i have been telling you these last few years is true. i now have clear and unquestionable evidence of an intermittent bug in horizon that can and does cause thousands of pounds of losses to sub—postmasters. so it

goes on. he explains in the balance of his e—mail. what the problem is. if we go over the page, i should have dealt with the bottom of page one. sorry, the bottom of page three. i have three options. a, this e—mail is a first option, appeal to yoursense e—mail is a first option, appeal to your sense of decency and compassion, to accept that many of the claimants in the gfa are honest and decent citizens whose lives were destroyed by your organisation. b, comical to press and see what happens. or overthe comical to press and see what happens. or over the page, await the inevitablejudicial happens. or over the page, await the inevitable judicial review where you will be personally exposed and perhaps leave yourself open to criminal charges. we can stop this farce now. you can wake up and realise the people you rely on to

tell you the truth about what is happening don't have the ability to do so. what did you do as a result of this? i do so. what did you do as a result of this? ., �* .. , , of this? i don't recall. genuinely i don't recall- _ of this? i don't recall. genuinely i don't recall. if— of this? i don't recall. genuinely i don't recall. if you _ of this? i don't recall. genuinely i don't recall. if you have _ of this? i don't recall. genuinely i don't recall. if you have further. don't recall. if you have further e-mails — don't recall. if you have further e-mails i — don't recall. if you have further e—mails i am happy to be taking to them _ e-mails i am happy to be taking to them. . . e-mails i am happy to be taking to them. , , ., e-mails i am happy to be taking to them. , , . . ., ., them. this is quite a direct form of communication. _ them. this is quite a direct form of communication. yes, _ them. this is quite a direct form of communication. yes, it _ them. this is quite a direct form of communication. yes, it is. - them. this is quite a direct form of communication. yes, it is. would i them. this is quite a direct form of. communication. yes, it is. would you take from that _ communication. yes, it is. would you take from that this _ communication. yes, it is. would you take from that this is _ communication. yes, it is. would you take from that this is a _ communication. yes, it is. would you take from that this is a person - communication. yes, it is. would you take from that this is a person to - take from that this is a person to be took— take from that this is a person to be took from —— put to one side? gr be took from —— put to one side? (or would be took from —— put to one side? would you think be took from —— put to one side? (1) would you think the way he expressed themselves means i should take what he is saying seriously? you themselves means i should take what he is saying seriously?— he is saying seriously? you will find an e-mail _ he is saying seriously? you will find an e-mail from _ he is saying seriously? you will find an e-mailfrom me, - he is saying seriously? you will find an e-mailfrom me, i- he is saying seriously? you willj find an e-mailfrom me, i don't he is saying seriously? you will - find an e-mailfrom me, i don't know find an e—mail from me, i don't know if it is— find an e—mail from me, i don't know if it is in— find an e—mail from me, i don't know if it is in response to this where i say to— if it is in response to this where i say to my— if it is in response to this where i say to my team, we must take mr mackay— say to my team, we must take mr mackay professionally, and i cannot remember— mackay professionally, and i cannot remember the other word is used, no

matter— remember the other word is used, no matter how— remember the other word is used, no matter how rude people were, and sometimes it felt like that, because he would _ sometimes it felt like that, because he would say other things than art necessarily. first of all, in hindsight _ necessarily. first of all, in hindsight i think he was right, and i hindsight i think he was right, and i regret— hindsight i think he was right, and i regret that the match as he was raising _ i regret that the match as he was raising took too long to address. but i _ raising took too long to address. but i would always respond to people courteously and i don't know genuinely what happened to this e-mail. — genuinely what happened to this e—mail, whether it was picked up by the team, _ e—mail, whether it was picked up by the team, whether i sent it on to somebody. — the team, whether i sent it on to somebody, but i would never ignore something — somebody, but i would never ignore something. if somebody, but i would never ignore somethina . somebody, but i would never ignore somethina. ., ., ~' somebody, but i would never ignore somethina. . ., something. if we look at the foot of .a i e something. if we look at the foot of -a~e two. something. if we look at the foot of page two- we _ something. if we look at the foot of page two- we can — something. if we look at the foot of page two. we can see _ something. if we look at the foot of page two. we can see that - something. if we look at the foot of page two. we can see that miss - page two. we can see that miss o'farrell, who was your executive assistant, send that e—mail on to angela. the executive corresponds team. and the flag case adviser. what was the flag case adviser? that was what i was trying to remember

earlier, there was an accelerated process around the executive communications team for flag cases and mps would have gone into that, i believe. if we go to page one, please? fist believe. if we go to page one, lease? �* ., ., believe. if we go to page one, lease? �* ., please? at the foot of the page. this nets please? at the foot of the page. this gets forwarded _ please? at the foot of the page. this gets forwarded on - please? at the foot of the page. this gets forwarded on to - please? at the foot of the page. i this gets forwarded on to roderick williams _ this gets forwarded on to roderick williams by angela, and he says, thank— williams by angela, and he says, thank you — williams by angela, and he says, thank you angela, i agree we should us with— thank you angela, i agree we should us with information but recommend we write to _ us with information but recommend we write to him _ us with information but recommend we write to him in the same terms. we have _ write to him in the same terms. we have every— write to him in the same terms. we have every other person who says they have — have every other person who says they have evidence, i have sent those _ they have evidence, i have sent those letters and i'm happy to do so again _ those letters and i'm happy to do so again was — those letters and i'm happy to do so again. was there a standard text letter— again. was there a standard text letter that went back to people that raised _ letter that went back to people that raised complaints? it letter that went back to people that raised complaints?— raised complaints? it sounds as thou:h raised complaints? it sounds as though there — raised complaints? it sounds as though there was. _ raised complaints? it sounds as though there was. i _ raised complaints? it sounds as though there was. i wasn't - raised complaints? it sounds as. though there was. i wasn't aware raised complaints? it sounds as - though there was. i wasn't aware of what he had. i am pretty sure i know about the

gre he is referring to, i have already sent a letter acknowledging receipt of his complaint. if you agree, i will circulate something shortly. i want to send it in hard copy rather than e—mail. a short e—mail with any responses in the mail. generally my view is the guy is a bluffer who keeps expecting us too much to his tune. i don't think we should do so, but instead respond with a straight back. was it your view that mr maccormack was a bluffer? no, asi no, as i say, when i responded to him, _ no, as i say, when i responded to him. i_ no, as i say, when i responded to him. itook— no, as i say, when i responded to him, i took his challenges seriously and i_ him, i took his challenges seriously and i can— him, i took his challenges seriously and i can remember one particular case _ and i can remember one particular case where — and i can remember one particular case where angela went to meet an outreach _ case where angela went to meet an outreach branch he had raised a query— outreach branch he had raised a query on — outreach branch he had raised a query on. in outreach branch he had raised a cue on. . outreach branch he had raised a cue on. , .

query on. in his e-mail, he said ou, query on. in his e-mail, he said you. chief— query on. in his e-mail, he said you, chief executive, _ query on. in his e-mail, he said you, chief executive, are - query on. in his e-mail, he said you, chief executive, are not i you, chief executive, are not getting the right advice from the people you have surrounded yourself with. his e—mail gets forwarded to the people you have surrounded yourself with. can you see a problem? i yourself with. can you see a problem?— yourself with. can you see a problem?_ can i yourself with. can you see a| problem?_ can we yourself with. can you see a - problem?_ can we move yourself with. can you see a _ problem?_ can we move on, problem? i can, yes. can we move on, lease? i problem? i can, yes. can we move on, please? i should _ problem? i can, yes. can we move on, please? i should have _ problem? i can, yes. can we move on, please? i should have said _ problem? i can, yes. can we move on, please? i should have said the - problem? i can, yes. can we move on, please? i should have said the top - please? i should have said the top page one. mark davies. the pr guy. he says, wise advice with which i agree. can we move forwards, please, to 0011? sorry, for 029. and look at page two, please at the top. this is made 2016 from mr maccormack directly to you. he says a typical