the question talking for a while but the question of when the general election will be, the speculation is now at a level it has not been at any point this year. there is a cabinet meeting due to begin here in downing street and less than an hour, and two ministers have changed their travel plans in order to be here. the foreign secretary has cut short a trip to albania to attend a meeting in london, and grant shapps the defence secretary was due to travel out of the uk this afternoon and we understand he has postponed the trip, although we were told he intends to travel at some point. there are rumours that some ministerial diaries are being cleared, which is further adding to the speculation, but we do not have anything concrete about what the prime minister might say, or even if the prime minister is going to say anything at all. just rows of cameras lined up your in downing street expecting something with very little concrete information. in

terms of a cabinet meeting, we have been told on the agenda is an update on the economy. clearly, that doesn'tjustify on the economy. clearly, that doesn't justify the levels on the economy. clearly, that doesn'tjustify the levels of frenetic activity that now appear to be going on behind the scenes. all rishi sunak has said is repeating his claim that the general election will be in the second half of this year, that is only a0 days away. normally when we get to this point the advisers and people who work in the advisers and people who work in the heart of downing street would be giving us a tap on the shoulder or saying do not talk about that too much, we don't really think that is happening. that has not happened today, there has been no guidance to us to stop talking about it at all and here we are in downing street expecting something to happen. whenever that election is called, take us through what has to happen until we get to election day, because there are various things that have to take place likely to

seek the king. it that have to take place likely to seek the king.— that have to take place likely to seek the king. it is expected that if rishi sunak _ seek the king. it is expected that if rishi sunak does _ seek the king. it is expected that if rishi sunak does tell _ seek the king. it is expected that if rishi sunak does tell his - seek the king. it is expected that| if rishi sunak does tell his cabinet this afternoon that there is going to be a general election, he would then have to speak to the king to dissolve parliament. that meeting could happen in person, it could also happen remotely. there would then be an election campaign covering a period of weeks. it is in the prime minister because my gift to decide exactly when the election date would be. there is some speculation it is likely to be in the first week ofjuly. the party leaders were dispersed across the country, campaigning would begin, people in the uk would be under no illusions about the general election happening, other leaflets, all the talk, on the spin we have been building up to in some ways for months would start to mean something and people will have the opportunity to go to the ballot box.— to go to the ballot box. parliament would be dissolved _ to go to the ballot box. parliament would be dissolved to _ to go to the ballot box. parliament would be dissolved to allow- to go to the ballot box. parliamentl would be dissolved to allow people to go out across the country and campaign. iamjust

to go out across the country and campaign. i am just going to draw your attention to something our colleague chris mason the political editor has just posted on the life age. he is saying he has been told home office minister�* diaries are being cleared. another signal that something is up, whatever that something is up, whatever that something might be. absolutely, and something might be. absolutely, and some rumours _ something might be. absolutely, and some rumours from _ something might be. absolutely, and some rumours from within _ something might be. absolutely, and some rumours from within the - something might be. absolutely, and some rumours from within the civil. some rumours from within the civil service, things that are unsubstantiated at this point or unclear. but there rumours about the home office, the ministers there, chris being told that is a further signal that something is happening. there are a number of reasons why the prime minister might choose to go at this point, while in some ways it might be seen as a surprise. there has been a lot more speculation about an autumn general election, today there has been the news that inflation has dropped to 2.2%, that is almost at the bank of england�*s target. the prime minister has the opportunity to say he has

helped to turn the economy around, describing it as a major moment by the british economy. the chancellor has also said it would take some time for people to really feel the impact of the fall in inflation. at the same time, while it was good news, there was also some bad news in there because it is now not expected that the bank of england will cut interest rates next month, as had been predicted. we do not know that for sure but the expectations around some of that have changed over the course of today. all that gets to a point where it for the prime minister, he might be sitting there thinking now is as good a time as any to go, if it is going to take time for people to feel better, no imminent cuts in interest rates, why not go on a day where he has something like a good news story to tell? in the sense of being able to point to that inflation figure that has fallen to 2.3%. inflation figure that has fallen to 2.396. ., ~ ,., inflation figure that has fallen to 2.396. ., ~ i. ., inflation figure that has fallen to

2.396. 2, ~ _, 2, 2, g , 2.396. thank you for the moment. just a few other — 2.396. thank you for the moment. just a few other bets _ 2.396. thank you for the moment. just a few other bets on _ 2.396. thank you for the moment. just a few other bets on the _ 2.396. thank you for the moment. just a few other bets on the election - a few other bets on the election speculation to bring you, labour has unsurprisingly, i suppose, speculation to bring you, labour has unsurprisingly, isuppose, told rishi sunak to get on with it and call a general election this afternoon. a spokesperson for the party says we are fully ready to go whenever the prime minister calls an election, we have a fully organised and operational campaign ready to go and operational campaign ready to go and we think the country is calling out for a general election, so would urge the prime minister to get on with it. that statement they are from the labour party, and are busily lots of speculation on social media. i was drawn to one that pointed out that rishi sunak, who was on loose women recently said whenever that election date would be, would be good for your holidays. read into that what you want. that�*s go to our other main stories, that is that paula vennells has begun giving evidence to the ongoing post office inquiry. she got emotional

when she delivered evidence earlier in the morning today. to get more on this, let�*s speak to our correspondent who was at the inquiry. i should stress the inquiry is on a brief break and paula vennells is due to return to give evidence in about five minutes or so from now. this is a very minor mental day in the post office inquiry, isn�*t it? it mental day in the post office inquiry, isn't it?— mental day in the post office inquiry, isn't it? it is, victims, four surplus — inquiry, isn't it? it is, victims, four surplus matters - inquiry, isn't it? it is, victims, four surplus matters and - inquiry, isn't it? it is, victims, i four surplus matters and surplus mistresses have been waiting a long time to hear paula vennells speak on this. —— former sub—postmaster. time to hear paula vennells speak on this. —— formersub—postmaster. it is the this. —— former sub—postmaster. it is the first time she has this. —— formersub—postmaster. it is the first time she has spoken about this candle in the decade. it has been an emotional day, she has broken down several times, sometimes when e—mails have come back to haunt her and also sometimes when specific case studies had been put to her because the stories of these tragedies, these victims who have had to lose so much because of this

scandal have been brought up during the course of this inquiry. i spoke to two former sub—post mistresses earlier and their stories highlight the stakes, and they reacted to the apology we heard from paula vennells. a , , apology we heard from paula vennells-_ apology we heard from paula vennells. 1, , , . ~ :: ::' vennells. basically back in 2009 i had problems _ vennells. basically back in 2009 i had problems with _ vennells. basically back in 2009 i had problems with my _ vennells. basically back in 2009 i had problems with my post - vennells. basically back in 2009 i had problems with my post office| vennells. basically back in 2009 i i had problems with my post office pin card, i_ had problems with my post office pin card, i was— had problems with my post office pin card, i was told i was taking money out of— card, i was told i was taking money out of the _ card, i was told i was taking money out of the pensioners account, whichever— out of the pensioners account, whichever is the i wasn't. at the time _ whichever is the i wasn't. at the time it— whichever is the i wasn't. at the time itiust _ whichever is the i wasn't. at the time itjust got out of hand. and i -ot time itjust got out of hand. and i got done — time itjust got out of hand. and i got done for 36 counts of theft. which. — got done for 36 counts of theft. which. at — got done for 36 counts of theft. which, at the time, it was all a blur _ which, at the time, it was all a blur i— which, at the time, it was all a blur i went _ which, at the time, it was all a blur. i went through hell, backwards and forwards to courts. i ended up in a mental— and forwards to courts. i ended up in a mental hospital, tried to commit _ in a mental hospital, tried to commit suicide, stayed in hospital for my— commit suicide, stayed in hospital for my then six months. the family

thought— for my then six months. the family thought i_ for my then six months. the family thought i was in prison. a lot of family— thought i was in prison. a lot of family members thought i was in prison _ family members thought i was in prison. managed to get out of there and am _ prison. managed to get out of there and am here today to tell you my story~ _ and am here today to tell you my story~ and — and am here today to tell you my story. and to see paula vennells crying. _ story. and to see paula vennells crying. it — story. and to see paula vennells crying, itjust brought back so many bad memories, as we were standing in court crying _ bad memories, as we were standing in court crying as well. to see her tears. — court crying as well. to see her tears. it — court crying as well. to see her tears, it didn't really mean much. and all_ tears, it didn't really mean much. and all she — tears, it didn't really mean much. and all she keeps saying is i don't recall. _ and all she keeps saying is i don't recall. i_ and all she keeps saying is i don't recall, i don't remember, i don't know _ recall, idon't remember, i don't know 0t— recall, i don't remember, i don't know. of course she knows, she knows everything _ know. of course she knows, she knows everything i_ know. of course she knows, she knows eve hina. . ., , know. of course she knows, she knows eve hina. . . , , know. of course she knows, she knows eve hinu. . ., , , everything. i am really sorry, i can see how difficult _ everything. i am really sorry, i can see how difficult it _ everything. i am really sorry, i can see how difficult it is _ everything. i am really sorry, i can see how difficult it is to _ everything. i am really sorry, i can see how difficult it is to relive - see how difficult it is to relive all of that. how is it being in the same room as her as she is giving that evidence?— same room as her as she is giving that evidence? every time she says something. — that evidence? every time she says something. we _ that evidence? every time she says something, we feel _ that evidence? every time she says something, we feel like _ that evidence? every time she says something, we feel like screaming| something, we feel like screaming out and _ something, we feel like screaming out and saying something back, it is difficult _ out and saying something back, it is difficult. we have got to give her her chance, she needs to tell the truth _ her chance, she needs to tell the truth. there is nothing else to say.

there _ truth. there is nothing else to say. there is— truth. there is nothing else to say. there is nothing else for her to do but tell— there is nothing else for her to do but tell the — there is nothing else for her to do but tell the truth, tell it how it was _ but tell the truth, tell it how it was she — but tell the truth, tell it how it was. she has held back for so long, she has— was. she has held back for so long, she has had — was. she has held back for so long, she has had six months to get this report— she has had six months to get this report together. we just want the truth, _ report together. we just want the truth, that— report together. we just want the truth, that is all we want. no more broken _ truth, that is all we want. no more broken promises, just the truth. i know broken promises, just the truth. know you broken promises, just the truth. i know you have got a lot of support from other people who have been through this kind of injustice. you are holding up a picture, can you tell it what happened to you? this is my husband _ tell it what happened to you? this is my husband in _ tell it what happened to you? this is my husband in the year 2004, he passed _ is my husband in the year 2004, he passed away— is my husband in the year 2004, he passed away suddenly _ is my husband in the year 2004, he passed away suddenly two - is my husband in the year 2004, he passed away suddenly two months i passed away suddenly two months after being — passed away suddenly two months after being accused _ passed away suddenly two months after being accused of— passed away suddenly two months after being accused of stealing - after being accused of stealing money — after being accused of stealing money from _ after being accused of stealing money from the _ after being accused of stealing money from the post - after being accused of stealing money from the post office. i after being accused of stealing i money from the post office. he after being accused of stealing - money from the post office. he was suspended — money from the post office. he was suspended two _ money from the post office. he was suspended. two months _ money from the post office. he was suspended. two months later- money from the post office. he was suspended. two months later he i money from the post office. he was. suspended. two months later he was dead and _ suspended. two months later he was dead and started _ suspended. two months later he was dead and started doing _ suspended. two months later he was dead and started doing the _ suspended. two months later he was dead and started doing the same - suspended. two months later he was dead and started doing the same to i dead and started doing the same to me, dead and started doing the same to me. and _ dead and started doing the same to me. and it — dead and started doing the same to me. and it set— dead and started doing the same to me, and it set me— dead and started doing the same to me, and it set me to _ dead and started doing the same to me, and it set me to prison- dead and started doing the same to me, and it set me to prison for- me, and it set me to prison for something _ me, and it set me to prison for something i_ me, and it set me to prison for something i didn't _ me, and it set me to prison for something i didn't do, - me, and it set me to prison for something i didn't do, it- me, and it set me to prison for something i didn't do, it was. me, and it set me to prison for. something i didn't do, it was very difficult — something i didn't do, it was very difficult i— something i didn't do, it was very difficult. i had— something i didn't do, it was very difficult. i had a _ something i didn't do, it was very difficult. i had a successful- difficult. i had a successful business _ difficult. i had a successful business that— difficult. i had a successful business that was - difficult. i had a successful business that was brought| difficult. i had a successful- business that was brought down by the post— business that was brought down by the post office _ business that was brought down by the post office. all— business that was brought down by the post office. all i _ business that was brought down by the post office. all i want - business that was brought down by the post office. all i want is - business that was brought down by the post office. all i want is paula. the post office. all i want is paula vennells — the post office. all i want is paula vennells to— the post office. all i want is paula vennells to tell— the post office. all i want is paula vennells to tell the _ the post office. all i want is paula vennells to tell the truth, - the post office. all i want is paula vennells to tell the truth, just - the post office. all i want is paula vennells to tell the truth, just tol vennells to tell the truth, just to say she _ vennells to tell the truth, just to say she does— vennells to tell the truth, just to say she does know _ vennells to tell the truth, just to say she does know and _ vennells to tell the truth, just to say she does know and make - vennells to tell the truth, just to say she does know and make usl vennells to tell the truth, just to - say she does know and make us feel a little bit _ say she does know and make us feel a little bit better. —

say she does know and make us feel a little bit better. we _ say she does know and make us feel a little bit better. we are _ say she does know and make us feel a little bit better. we are never- little bit better. we are never going — little bit better. we are never going to _ little bit better. we are never going to get _ little bit better. we are never going to get the _ little bit better. we are never going to get the us _ little bit better. we are never going to get the us back, - little bit better. we are never going to get the us back, the little bit better. we are never- going to get the us back, the people we are _ going to get the us back, the people we are at— going to get the us back, the people we are at now— going to get the us back, the people we are at now we _ going to get the us back, the people we are at now we weren't _ going to get the us back, the people we are at now we weren't before. - going to get the us back, the peoplej we are at now we weren't before. we were confident — we are at now we weren't before. we were confident businesswoman- we are at now we weren't before. we were confident businesswoman and l were confident businesswoman and here we _ were confident businesswoman and here we are — were confident businesswoman and here we are now. _ were confident businesswoman and here we are now, we _ were confident businesswoman and here we are now, we have - were confident businesswoman and here we are now, we have to - were confident businesswoman and here we are now, we have to do. here we are now, we have to do everything — here we are now, we have to do everything twice, _ here we are now, we have to do everything twice, check- here we are now, we have to do. everything twice, check everything twice _ everything twice, check everything twice we — everything twice, check everything twice we just— everything twice, check everything twice. we just want _ everything twice, check everything twice. we just want to _ everything twice, check everything twice. we just want to tell- everything twice, check everything twice. we just want to tell the - twice. we just want to tell the truth, — twice. we just want to tell the truth, emit _ twice. we just want to tell the truth, emit what _ twice. we just want to tell the truth, emit what you - twice. we just want to tell the truth, emit what you have - twice. we just want to tell the . truth, emit what you have done. please _ truth, emit what you have done. please admit _ truth, emit what you have done. please admit to _ truth, emit what you have done. please admit to it. _ truth, emit what you have done. please admit to it. it _ truth, emit what you have done. please admit to it. it would - truth, emit what you have done. | please admit to it. it would make truth, emit what you have done. - please admit to it. it would make us feel hetter~ — please admit to it. it would make us feel better. there _ please admit to it. it would make us feel better. there is _ please admit to it. it would make us feel better. there is a _ please admit to it. it would make us feel better. there is a lot— please admit to it. it would make us feel better. there is a lot of- feel better. there is a lot of emotions _ feel better. there is a lot of emotions-— feel better. there is a lot of emotions. ., , emotions. you don't believe her when she sa s emotions. you don't believe her when she says she — emotions. you don't believe her when she says she wasn't _ emotions. you don't believe her when she says she wasn't given _ emotions. you don't believe her when she says she wasn't given the - she says she wasn�*t given the information. ihla she says she wasn't given the information.— she says she wasn't given the information. no. information. no absolutely not. no. and our information. no absolutely not. no. and your picture _ information. no absolutely not. no. and your picture is _ information. no absolutely not. no. and your picture is a _ information. no absolutely not. no. and your picture is a reminder- information. no absolutely not. no. and your picture is a reminder that l and your picture is a reminder that not everyone affected by this can be here today?— here today? before he could clear his name. — here today? before he could clear his name. he _ here today? before he could clear his name, he is— here today? before he could clear his name, he is gone. _ here today? before he could clear his name, he is gone. i _ here today? before he could clear his name, he is gone. i am - here today? before he could clear his name, he is gone. i am doing| his name, he is gone. i am doing this for— his name, he is gone. i am doing this for both _ his name, he is gone. i am doing this for both of _ his name, he is gone. i am doing this for both of us, _ his name, he is gone. i am doing this for both of us, my— his name, he is gone. i am doing this for both of us, my family - his name, he is gone. i am doing| this for both of us, my family and my children _ this for both of us, my family and my children we _ this for both of us, my family and my children. we have _ this for both of us, my family and my children. we have made - this for both of us, my family and my children. we have made such| this for both of us, my family and - my children. we have made such good friends _ my children. we have made such good friends through — my children. we have made such good friends through these _ my children. we have made such good friends through these horrible - friends through these horrible stories — friends through these horrible stories we _ friends through these horrible stories, we just _ friends through these horrible stories, we just want - friends through these horrible stories, we just want the - friends through these horrible i stories, we just want the truth. friends through these horrible . stories, we just want the truth. it is going _ stories, we just want the truth. it is going on— stories, we just want the truth. it is going on for— stories, we just want the truth. it is going on for years _ stories, we just want the truth. it is going on for years and - stories, we just want the truth. it is going on for years and we - stories, we just want the truth. it is going on for years and we are i stories, we just want the truth. it . is going on for years and we are not getting _ is going on for years and we are not getting any— is going on for years and we are not getting any younger, _ is going on for years and we are not getting any younger, and _ is going on for years and we are not getting any younger, and it - is going on for years and we are not getting any younger, and it is - getting any younger, and it is really— getting any younger, and it is really painful— getting any younger, and it is really painful listening - getting any younger, and it is

really painful listening to - getting any younger, and it is. really painful listening to other postmasters _ really painful listening to other postmasters. when _ really painful listening to other postmasters. when we - really painful listening to other postmasters. when we listen l really painful listening to otherl postmasters. when we listen to stories — postmasters. when we listen to stories it — postmasters. when we listen to stories it is— postmasters. when we listen to stories, it is like _ postmasters. when we listen to stories, it is like it— postmasters. when we listen to stories, it is like it is— postmasters. when we listen to stories, it is like it is happening| stories, it is like it is happening to us _ stories, it is like it is happening to us we — stories, it is like it is happening to us we are _ stories, it is like it is happening to us. we are all— stories, it is like it is happening to us. we are all connected - stories, it is like it is happening to us. we are all connected in. stories, it is like it is happening. to us. we are all connected in this. we want _ to us. we are all connected in this. we want it— to us. we are all connected in this. we want it to — to us. we are all connected in this. we want it to end, _ to us. we are all connected in this. we want it to end, we _ to us. we are all connected in this. we want it to end, we will- to us. we are all connected in this. we want it to end, we will never. to us. we are all connected in this. | we want it to end, we will never be the same _ we want it to end, we will never be the same people _ we want it to end, we will never be the same people again. _ we want it to end, we will never be the same people again. use - we want it to end, we will never be the same people again. use of- we want it to end, we will never be the same people again. use of outi the same people again. use of out lives stolen — the same people again. use of out lives stolen from _ the same people again. use of out lives stolen from us. _ the same people again. use of out lives stolen from us. that - the same people again. use of out lives stolen from us.— lives stolen from us. that is something _ lives stolen from us. that is something i _ lives stolen from us. that is something i have _ lives stolen from us. that is something i have heard - lives stolen from us. that is | something i have heard from lives stolen from us. that is - something i have heard from several of your community now. it is a community bound for the most terrible reasons, i accept that. they said losing their good names is one of the hardest parts of this. definitely because i was splashed all over— definitely because i was splashed all over the front pages of my local paper— all over the front pages of my local paper and — all over the front pages of my local paper and my whole face was on the front page — paper and my whole face was on the front page. every time i think about that it _ front page. every time i think about that itjust— front page. every time i think about that itjust depresses me. it depresses me, the fact i had to go through— depresses me, the fact i had to go through that, my whole family had to id through that, my whole family had to go through— through that, my whole family had to go through that. but we have come through— go through that. but we have come through it — go through that. but we have come through it. we are going to come through— through it. we are going to come through it — through it. we are going to come through it and we are going to be better— through it and we are going to be better on— through it and we are going to be better on the other side, and

hopefully thanks to alan bates, we have come — hopefully thanks to alan bates, we have come this far and we are here to see _ have come this far and we are here to see it— have come this far and we are here to see it with our own eyes.- to see it with our own eyes. some sub- ost to see it with our own eyes. some sub-post mistresses _ to see it with our own eyes. some sub-post mistresses and - to see it with our own eyes. ”he sub—post mistresses and postmasters have been reacting to the testimony from paula vennells. we will return to that very soon once it resumes. our other means sorry that we are watching this afternoon as the speculation in westminster over whether prime minister rishi sunak will call a general election later today. stephen flynn, the scottish national party mp for aberdeen asked rishi sunak if he is going to call is a general election. —— a separate general election. is a general election. -- a separate general election.— general election. speculation is rife so i think _ general election. speculation is rife so i think the _ general election. speculation is rife so i think the public - general election. speculation is| rife so i think the public deserve general election. speculation is i rife so i think the public deserve a clear answer to a simple question. does the prime minister intended to call a summer general election or at his he afraid? —— as he afraid? this i

his he afraid? -- as he afraid? as i have said — his he afraid? —— as he afraid? as i have said repeatedly to him, there is going _ have said repeatedly to him, there is going to — have said repeatedly to him, there is going to be general election in the second half of this year, and at the second half of this year, and at the moment the general public will see the _ the moment the general public will see the truth about the gentleman opposite _ see the truth about the gentleman opposite me. a party that is not able _ opposite me. a party that is not able to— opposite me. a party that is not able to say— opposite me. a party that is not able to say what they would do, and put at _ able to say what they would do, and put at rist— able to say what they would do, and put at risk our hard earned economic stability _ put at risk our hard earned economic stability. the put at risk our hard earned economic stabili . . ., stability. the view that there from the prime minister. _ stability. the view that there from the prime minister. we _ stability. the view that there from the prime minister. we will- stability. the view that there from the prime minister. we will find i stability. the view that there from | the prime minister. we will find out why this afternoon but it looks like the post office inquiry has been seamed for the afternoon so let�*s go straight to it. paula vennells continuing her testimony.

you will see it as a board briefing in draft, dated the ath ofjune 201a with the title document further to our report, arising desktop review of key control features, dated the 23rd of may 201a, responding to five specific matters identified by the post office as critical to the post office�*s legal position. and then look at page two police, sorry, page three. look at the paragraph at the top, please. blow that up. first paragraph. the work we carried out to support ourfull paragraph. the work we carried out to support our full report and thus this briefing document did not constitute an audit or insurance engagement in accordance with uk or international standards. in order to deliver a formal assurance opinion we would need to have carried out

testing to address the scope limitations. our conclusions and findings are therefore limited to the design of arising, therefore, also subject to the assumptions and limitations set out in section three. if we go to the foot of the page... limitations and assumptions, ourfindings and page... limitations and assumptions, our findings and conclusions are presented in the context of the following limitations. one is a desktop exercise we have not validated, whether horizon has been prevented or operated as described in the documentation reviewed. that is quite a significant limitation, would you agree?— is quite a significant limitation, would you agree? yes. we are looking at ieces of would you agree? yes. we are looking at pieces of paper about how the system was designed, we haven�*t actually looked at whether it does the things that the pieces of paper says it does. the the things that the pieces of paper says it does-— says it does. the issue that was faced from _ says it does. the issue that was faced from memory _ says it does. the issue that was faced from memory was - says it does. the issue that was faced from memory was that. says it does. the issue that was|

faced from memory was that the software. — faced from memory was that the software, forgive me, because i am not a _ software, forgive me, because i am not a technical expert, but my recollection is the software is essentially the same, and as the inquiry— essentially the same, and as the inquiry has — essentially the same, and as the inquiry has heard from the very beginning — inquiry has heard from the very beginning of the implementation, and ithink— beginning of the implementation, and i think this _ beginning of the implementation, and i think this is the evidence, that fix upon — i think this is the evidence, that fix upon fix _ i think this is the evidence, that fix upon fix had been applied and documentation had not been kept. so what had _ documentation had not been kept. so what had been discovered, and this was discussed at the board prior to this being — was discussed at the board prior to this being commissioned, it was going _ this being commissioned, it was going to — this being commissioned, it was going to be difficult to find all of the documentation that could have confirmed — the documentation that could have confirmed this, so there was always an outstanding question as to whether— an outstanding question as to whether one could go back and to validate _ whether one could go back and to validate the implementation of horizon — validate the implementation of horizon back in the 1990s, early to thousands — horizon back in the 1990s, early to thousands. , �* horizon back in the 1990s, early to thousands-— thousands. they didn't look at pinnacles. _

thousands. they didn't look at pinnacles, peaks? _ thousands. they didn't look at pinnacles, peaks? i— thousands. they didn't look at pinnacles, peaks? i don't- thousands. they didn't look at i pinnacles, peaks? i don't believe the did pinnacles, peaks? i don't believe they did in _ pinnacles, peaks? i don't believe they did in the _ pinnacles, peaks? i don't believe they did in the anot _ pinnacles, peaks? i don't believe they did in the anot words - pinnacles, peaks? i don't believe they did in the anot words i - pinnacles, peaks? i don't believe they did in the anot words i had i they did in the anot words i had ever— they did in the anot words i had ever come _ they did in the anot words i had ever come across. i believe the word may have _ ever come across. i believe the word may have been mentioned once in an e-mail_ may have been mentioned once in an e-mail right — may have been mentioned once in an e—mail right was the end of my time, but they— e—mail right was the end of my time, but they were not words i understood. i am sure people who were _ understood. i am sure people who were involved in this piece of work, and who— were involved in this piece of work, and who were talking it, but i wouldn't _ and who were talking it, but i wouldn't have been able to point to those _ wouldn't have been able to point to those individuals.— wouldn't have been able to point to those individuals. second limitation or assumption. _ those individuals. second limitation or assumption, our _ those individuals. second limitation or assumption, our work _ those individuals. second limitation or assumption, our work was - those individuals. second limitation| or assumption, our work was limited by significant gaps in the information available relating to both the granularity of information and the existence of the horizon features over the entire timeline of the operation of horizon, the effect of which is the gaps. our findings below are written in the context available, which relates to the current system. an event occurred in 2010 which requires the use of the exception bouncing transaction

process in horizon to create a sub—postmaster�*s position from a technical issue. information has not been provided on the circumstances that led to the system issue, and how the issue was identified. it is assumed that verbal assertions received from fujitsu, this was the only time this process was used hold true. if i only time this process was used hold true. ., only time this process was used hold true. ._ ., ., , ., only time this process was used hold true. ., .,, ., ., true. if i may, that was one of the comments — true. if i may, that was one of the comments when _ true. if i may, that was one of the comments when i _ true. if i may, that was one of the comments when i spoke - true. if i may, that was one of the comments when i spoke to - true. if i may, that was one of the | comments when i spoke to leslie, that she _ comments when i spoke to leslie, that she challenged back, when she said there _ that she challenged back, when she said there was more information available — said there was more information available and there was on that. what _ available and there was on that. what you — available and there was on that. what you are telling us is there is a conversation and recorded outside of the written documents formally produced, raising this as a concern, which we showed you? yes. produced, raising this as a concern, which we showed you?— produced, raising this as a concern, which we showed you? yes, what i am tellin: ou which we showed you? yes, what i am telling you is — which we showed you? yes, what i am telling you is in _ which we showed you? yes, what i am telling you is in my — which we showed you? yes, what i am telling you is in my statement - which we showed you? yes, what i am telling you is in my statement i - telling you is in my statement i mentioned that when i spoke to leslie _ mentioned that when i spoke to leslie she was frustrated because she knew — leslie she was frustrated because she knew there was more

documentation and that would explain some of— documentation and that would explain some of these things, and this happens — some of these things, and this happens to be one of those. fourth, we have not — happens to be one of those. fourth, we have not had _ happens to be one of those. fourth, we have not had any _ happens to be one of those. fourth, we have not had any direct - happens to be one of those. fourth, we have not had any direct contact l we have not had any direct contact with third parties other than the contacts you have provided us with. we have not commented on the validation of the documentation supplied to us. the line in the third bullet point, it is assumed that verbal assertions received from fujitsu, this was the only time this process has been used hold true. it is not much reassurance, is it? it isn't at this stage and that is precisely— isn't at this stage and that is precisely one of the points that leslie — precisely one of the points that leslie was making and that the inquiry— leslie was making and that the inquiry has in its documents. there was documented evidence about this particular— was documented evidence about this particular one software balancing transactions, and i understand that the project — transactions, and i understand that the project bramble work, which i

was not _ the project bramble work, which i was not involved in and didn't see, so validated — was not involved in and didn't see, so validated that up to a certain date _ so validated that up to a certain date as— so validated that up to a certain date as well. it so validated that up to a certain date as well.— date as well. it refers in that fourth bullet _ date as well. it refers in that fourth bullet point _ date as well. it refers in that fourth bullet point to - date as well. it refers in that fourth bullet point to the - date as well. it refers in that - fourth bullet point to the balancing transaction process being used to create a sub—postmaster because my position. did you understand that to be a single postmaster? yes. if we no to be a single postmaster? yes. if we go to page — be a single postmaster? yes. if we go to page four- — be a single postmaster? yes. if we go to page four. they say arik was also based on the following —— they say our work. sorry, also based on the following —— they say ourwork. sorry, page also based on the following —— they say our work. sorry, page five. also based on the following —— they say ourwork. sorry, page five. uc, or it says these areas were reviewed in the context of five matters, they are the five specific issues raised by the post office as relevant to its legal position. they say noting the limitations and assumptions, our

overall findings are, and then it is five i am interested in, matter five, horizon provides visibility to all the supposed masters of transactions, that statement in quotation marks, that is what the post office wish to be assured about, is that right? i post office wish to be assured about, is that right?— post office wish to be assured about, is that right? i believe that is correct. and _ about, is that right? i believe that is correct. and then _ about, is that right? i believe that is correct. and then the _ about, is that right? i believe that is correct. and then the answer. is correct. and then the answer comes back. — is correct. and then the answer comes back, from _ is correct. and then the answer comes back, from the - is correct. and then the answer- comes back, from the documentation, it appears that horizon is designed so the postmaster has visibility of all the transactions to the branch ledgers in that accounting period. that is reassuring, isn�*t it? yes. central transactions require sub—postmaster approval to be processed, that is reassuring as well? , processed, that is reassuring as well?- except _ processed, that is reassuring as well? yes. except for balancing transaction _ well? yes. except for balancing

transaction postings. that is saying that for balancing transaction postings, sub—postmaster approval is not required. that postings, sub-postmaster approval is not required-— not required. that is what it says. that was the _ not required. that is what it says. that was the conversation - not required. that is what it says. that was the conversation of - not required. that is what it says. i that was the conversation of leslie, which _ that was the conversation of leslie, which deloitte confirmed at that stage _ which deloitte confirmed at that stage and later, that there was one example _ stage and later, that there was one example where balancing transactions had taken _ example where balancing transactions had taken place but it was incorrect. what is written here, a balancing — incorrect. what is written here, a balancing transaction could not take place _ balancing transaction could not take place without a sub—postmaster approvat — place without a sub—postmaster approval. the protocol was such that the sub—postmaster how to improve it, the sub—postmaster how to improve it. and _ the sub—postmaster how to improve it. and that — the sub—postmaster how to improve it, and that is what i had to go back— it, and that is what i had to go back to — it, and that is what i had to go back to double test.— it, and that is what i had to go back to double test. whatever you're so concerned — back to double test. whatever you're so concerned about _ back to double test. whatever you're so concerned about it? _ back to double test. whatever you're so concerned about it? why - back to double test. whatever you're so concerned about it? why this - so concerned about it? why this amongst all the pages?- so concerned about it? why this amongst all the pages? there are a coule of amongst all the pages? there are a couple of things _ amongst all the pages? there are a couple of things in _ amongst all the pages? there are a couple of things in the _ amongst all the pages? there are a couple of things in the report, - amongst all the pages? there are a couple of things in the report, riskl couple of things in the report, risk

registers _ couple of things in the report, risk registers and edit and delete transactions. this was important, i cannot— transactions. this was important, i cannot remember how the conversation with leslie _ cannot remember how the conversation with leslie started, whether i raised — with leslie started, whether i raised it— with leslie started, whether i raised it with her or she missed it with me. — raised it with her or she missed it with me, but the fact i had a conversation twice was clearly something that was significant. why are ou something that was significant. lung are you focusing on remote something that was significant. ixa�*iy are you focusing on remote access? which is what this is about? because i think this is — which is what this is about? because i think this is 2014. _ which is what this is about? because i think this is 2014. there _ which is what this is about? because i think this is 2014. there had - which is what this is about? because i think this is 2014. there had been l i think this is 2014. there had been in 2013, _ i think this is 2014. there had been in 2013, and — i think this is 2014. there had been in 2013, and i understand ongoing but i _ in 2013, and i understand ongoing but i didn't— in 2013, and i understand ongoing but i didn't know at the time, the challenge — but i didn't know at the time, the challenge based via a second site about _ challenge based via a second site about remote access. 30 challenge based via a second site about remote access.— about remote access. so you are sa in: , about remote access. so you are saying, the — about remote access. so you are saying, the only _ about remote access. so you are saying, the only thing _ about remote access. so you are saying, the only thing you - about remote access. so you are - saying, the only thing you mentioned in the witness statement that he checked with leslie was about these paragraphs, which are concerned with the facility for remote access by fujitsu? usa are saying you check those things with leslie on this undocumented conversation. and it is

something that happened the year before, i eat mr bodkin�*s allegations. before, i eat mr bodkin's allegations.— before, i eat mr bodkin's allegations. before, i eat mr bodkin's allerations. ., , , ., , allegations. you see why it was talkin: allegations. you see why it was talking about _ allegations. you see why it was talking about remote _ allegations. you see why it was talking about remote access . allegations. you see why it was | talking about remote access and allegations. you see why it was - talking about remote access and the onlym _ talking about remote access and the onlym i_ talking about remote access and the onlym ican— talking about remote access and the only... i can think the only... the remote _ only... i can think the only... the remote access _ only... i can think the only... the remote access was raised in relation to the _ remote access was raised in relation to the basement of... and it was a challenge — to the basement of... and it was a challenge, remote access was not a new news _ challenge, remote access was not a new news item, it was an important news _ new news item, it was an important news item _ new news item, it was an important news item so to focus on that would be a sensible thing to do. you news item so to focus on that would be a sensible thing to do.— be a sensible thing to do. you know that this issue _ be a sensible thing to do. you know that this issue that _ be a sensible thing to do. you know that this issue that we _ be a sensible thing to do. you know that this issue that we are - that this issue that we are addressing now is directly relevant

to evidence that you were subsequently to give to parliament. yes, i do now and i am sure we will come _ yes, i do now and i am sure we will come unto— yes, i do now and i am sure we will come unto that. but as i say, you my witness — come unto that. but as i say, you my witness statement, i do not know that im _ witness statement, i do not know that i... once it had been explained to met _ that i... once it had been explained to me. i_ that i... once it had been explained to me, i accepted the explanation and moved — to me, i accepted the explanation and moved on. and the explanation i was given— and moved on. and the explanation i was given remains valid actually for a number— was given remains valid actually for a number of— was given remains valid actually for a number of years. but i didn't understand at this stage, and i don't _ understand at this stage, and i don't think i understood until after i left don't think i understood until after i left the _ don't think i understood until after i left the organisation was that the balancing — i left the organisation was that the balancing transaction tool could be used partially without permission of supposed _ used partially without permission of supposed masters to make interventions in the system, and i may have — interventions in the system, and i may have not understood this property. _ may have not understood this properly, but to reboot a stock unit

for instance — properly, but to reboot a stock unit for instance if it had crashed, i don't _ for instance if it had crashed, i don't think— for instance if it had crashed, i don't think i ever understood they could _ don't think i ever understood they could be _ don't think i ever understood they could be used in terms of remote access— could be used in terms of remote access in— could be used in terms of remote access in the way i think they were. but i _ access in the way i think they were. but i didn't— access in the way i think they were. but i didn't know that at the time. until— but i didn't know that at the time. until i _ but i didn't know that at the time. until i left — but i didn't know that at the time. until i left the organisation. would ou arree until i left the organisation. would you agree that _ until i left the organisation. would you agree that on _ until i left the organisation. would you agree that on its _ until i left the organisation. would you agree that on its face, - until i left the organisation. would you agree that on its face, this - you agree that on its face, this board briefing from the deloitte clearly states that fujitsu could inject or insert or make balancing transactions into a branch account, a sub—postmaster is branch account without the approval of the sub—postmaster. hence except for balancing transaction postings ages. balancing transaction postings yes, that is exactly _ balancing transaction postings yes, that is exactly what _ balancing transaction postings yes, that is exactly what it _ balancing transaction postings yes, that is exactly what it says. neverl that is exactly what it says. never mind about _ that is exactly what it says. never mind about whether _ that is exactly what it says. never mind about whether it _ that is exactly what it says. never mind about whether it was - mind about whether it was exceptional or how often it had been

used, never mind there was some assurance that the sub—postmaster in fact knew about it. just on the basic fact this is written evidence to you and the board, that fujitsu could alter branch transactions without the approval of the sub—postmaster. i without the approval of the sub-postmaster.— without the approval of the sub-postmaster. without the approval of the sub-ostmaster. , . sub-postmaster. i accept what you are saying. — sub-postmaster. i accept what you are saying. i _ sub-postmaster. i accept what you are saying, ithink— sub-postmaster. i accept what you are saying, i think there _ sub-postmaster. i accept what you are saying, i think there is - sub-postmaster. i accept what you are saying, i think there is an - are saying, i think there is an important _ are saying, i think there is an important distinction between what you are _ important distinction between what you are saying and what i know now to the _ you are saying and what i know now to the way— you are saying and what i know now to the way i. — you are saying and what i know now to the way i, and i cannot speak for the board, — to the way i, and i cannot speak for the board, understood it at the time _ the board, understood it at the time i— the board, understood it at the time. i think that is an important distinction — time. i think that is an important distinction-— distinction. and the distinction arises because _ distinction. and the distinction arises because of— distinction. and the distinction arises because of the - distinction. and the distinction - arises because of the conversation you had with leslie, conversations. yes, and there are also documents which _ yes, and there are also documents which i _ yes, and there are also documents which i think— yes, and there are also documents which i think refer to that, when i did go— which i think refer to that, when i did go to — which i think refer to that, when i did go to the select committee in 2015 as— did go to the select committee in 2015 as well. did go to the select committee in 2015 as well-— did go to the select committee in 2015 as well. quite aside from all of that, 2015 as well. quite aside from all of that. you _

2015 as well. quite aside from all of that, you agree _ 2015 as well. quite aside from all of that, you agree that _ 2015 as well. quite aside from all of that, you agree that on - 2015 as well. quite aside from all of that, you agree that on the - 2015 as well. quite aside from all| of that, you agree that on the face of that, you agree that on the face of the board briefing you had no information at all on and to what extent fujitsu had used balancing transactions before 2008? that is correct. transactions before 2008? that is correct- the _ transactions before 2008? that is correct. the board _ transactions before 2008? that is correct. the board wanted - transactions before 2008? that is correct. the board wanted to - transactions before 2008? that is| correct. the board wanted to know that, it wanted _ correct. the board wanted to know that, it wanted to _ correct. the board wanted to know that, it wanted to note _ correct. the board wanted to know that, it wanted to note the - correct. the board wanted to know| that, it wanted to note the position from the inception of horizon. it did, it had... leslie came to the board _ did, it had... leslie came to the board and — did, it had... leslie came to the board and i_ did, it had... leslie came to the board and i recall approximately the conversation, where she explained what i _ conversation, where she explained what i stated previously actually, that it _ what i stated previously actually, that it would be very difficult if not impossible to get the data, to look at _ not impossible to get the data, to look at some of the questions, for instance. — look at some of the questions, for instance, about this because it didn't— instance, about this because it didn't exist, either because it had been _ didn't exist, either because it had been destroyed because of data retention policies, but more likely because _ retention policies, but more likely because it — retention policies, but more likely

because it simply wasn't... i am retention policies, but more likely because it simply wasn't. .. i am so sor , do because it simply wasn't. .. i am so sorry. do you _ because it simply wasn't. .. i am so sorry, do you know— because it simply wasn't. .. i am so sorry, do you know what _ sorry, do you know what investigation was carried out to find that documentation, because we have got it. we have got the documentation which shows one witness describing it as a wild west, the extent to which fujitsu could object, amend transactions pre—2010, completely before 2004 unregulated, unaudited. we have got those documents that show that. yes. those documents that show that. yes, and i should — those documents that show that. yes, and i should have _ those documents that show that. yes, and i should have seen _ those documents that show that. yes, and i should have seen those documents, i didn't know they existed — documents, i didn't know they existed i_ documents, i didn't know they existed. i don't know where that existed. idon't know where that might— existed. i don't know where that might 00 — existed. i don't know where that might cio at the time knew they existed — might cio at the time knew they existed but she was very clear in her communication to the board that it would _ her communication to the board that it would be _ her communication to the board that it would be very difficult. i can recall— it would be very difficult. i can recall the _ it would be very difficult. i can recall the chairman asking the question— recall the chairman asking the question and how much it might cost us to— question and how much it might cost us to get— question and how much it might cost us to get that data, it wouldn't be extracted — us to get that data, it wouldn't be extracted but to recreate that data, and it _ extracted but to recreate that data, and it may — extracted but to recreate that data, and it may be in one of the minutes,

and it may be in one of the minutes, a 6-figure _ and it may be in one of the minutes, a 6—figure sum was talked about to be able _ a 6—figure sum was talked about to be able to— a 6—figure sum was talked about to be able to do that, which in hindsight would have been incredibly wise investment to make. but actually— wise investment to make. but actually didn't need to be made because — actually didn't need to be made because information was there. so it wasn't the because information was there. sr it wasn't the documentation wasn't wasn�*t the documentation wasn�*t available, it was that it would be costly to find it? it available, it was that it would be costly to find it?— costly to find it? it would be costly to find it? it would be costly to _ costly to find it? it would be costly to recreate _ costly to find it? it would be costly to recreate it. - costly to find it? it would be costly to recreate it. what i costly to find it? it would be i costly to recreate it. what was explained was the documentation was not there _ explained was the documentation was not there in— explained was the documentation was not there in terms of whether the systemm — not there in terms of whether the systemm it— not there in terms of whether the system... it was the point that was made _ system... it was the point that was made on _ system... it was the point that was made on the — system... it was the point that was made on the evidence statement, that when the _ made on the evidence statement, that when the system went in there were multiple _ when the system went in there were multiple faults, fixes were applied and documentation, which is a frequent — and documentation, which is a frequent issue with systems, was not updated _ frequent issue with systems, was not updated as _ frequent issue with systems, was not updated as each fix was applied. so it was— updated as each fix was applied. so it was very— updated as each fix was applied. so it was very difficult to know how well the — it was very difficult to know how well the system had been permitted. iam i am talking about a different thing, documents from fujitsu, some of which were passed to the post

office saying, "we have got a team