to do that, which in be able to do that, which in hindsight would have been incredibly wise investment to make. but actually— wise investment to make. but actually didn't need to be made because — actually didn't need to be made because information was there. so it wasn't the because information was there. sr it wasn't the documentation wasn't available, it was that it would be costly to find it? it available, it was that it would be costly to find it?— costly to find it? it would be costly to find it? it would be costly to _ costly to find it? it would be costly to recreate _ costly to find it? it would be costly to recreate it. - costly to find it? it would be costly to recreate it. what i costly to find it? it would be i costly to recreate it. what was explained was the documentation was not there _ explained was the documentation was not there in_ explained was the documentation was not there in terms of whether the systemm — not there in terms of whether the systemm it— not there in terms of whether the system... it was the point that was made _ system... it was the point that was made on _ system... it was the point that was made on the — system... it was the point that was made on the evidence statement, that when the _ made on the evidence statement, that when the system went in there were multiple _ when the system went in there were multiple faults, fixes were applied and documentation, which is a frequent — and documentation, which is a frequent issue with systems, was not updated _ frequent issue with systems, was not updated as _ frequent issue with systems, was not updated as each fix was applied. so it was— updated as each fix was applied. so it was very— updated as each fix was applied. so it was very difficult to know how well the — it was very difficult to know how well the system had been permitted. lam i am talking about a different thing, documents from fujitsu, some of which were passed to the post

office saying, "we have got a team of people, 18, support level 3, that have privileged user rights, that are not auditable and unaudited, that allow them access to the live estate to insert or amend transactions".— estate to insert or amend transactions". yes, and that information _ transactions". yes, and that information was _ transactions". yes, and that information was not - transactions". yes, and that information was not shared, transactions". yes, and that - information was not shared, deeply regrettably. can information was not shared, deeply rearettabl . ., information was not shared, deeply rearettabl . . ., ., ., information was not shared, deeply regrettably-— regrettably. can we go onto your evidence before _ regrettably. can we go onto your evidence before the _ regrettably. can we go onto your evidence before the select - evidence before the select committee? at paragraphs 1000 — 1307... sorry, that document can come down, you refer to your evidence before the select committee, including an e—mail that you sent to mark davies and lesley sewell on the 13th of january 2015 requested help in appearing before the committee. can we look at that, please? it is 3029812.

can we look at page five, please? at the foot of the page. and so just in context, the committee hearing was on the 3rd of february 2015 and we are now on the 30th of january 2015. to mark davies and lesley saul, urgent, accessing horizon. ithink this is the first e—mail in the chain. "dear bowes, your help please in answers and in facing those answers in preparation for the select committee. one, is it possible to access the system remotely? we are told it is. " what

you are doing there is attributing to the committee a statement or a challenge or a question, is that right? challenge or a question, is that riuht? . . challenge or a question, is that riuht? , . . right? yes, i am positing a question- _ right? yes, i am positing a question. imagining - right? yes, i am positing a question. imagining that l right? yes, i am positing a - question. imagining that which they ma ask question. imagining that which they may ask you? _ question. imagining that which they may ask you? yes. _ question. imagining that which they may ask you? yes. and _ question. imagining that which they may ask you? yes. and asking - question. imagining that which they may ask you? yes. and asking for. may ask you? yes. and asking for assistance — may ask you? yes. and asking for assistance with _ may ask you? yes. and asking for assistance with the _ may ask you? yes. and asking for assistance with the answer? yes. | may ask you? yes. and asking for- assistance with the answer? yes. and ou sa , assistance with the answer? yes. and you say. "what _ assistance with the answer? yes. and you say. "what is _ assistance with the answer? yes. and you say, "what is the true answer? i hope it is that we know this is not possible and that we are able to explain why that is. i need to say no, it is not possible, and be sure of this because of x x x, and that we know this because we have had the system assured." can you see that? yes, i can. i system assured." can you see that? yes. i can-— yes, i can. i should also ease the balance of— yes, i can. i should also ease the balance of this _ yes, i can. i should also ease the balance of this because _ yes, i can. i should also ease the balance of this because some - yes, i can. i should also ease the balance of this because some of. yes, i can. i should also ease the | balance of this because some of it is relevant to the question that you asked. "two, this is such a vital system for the post office, what testing do you do and how often and when?" and then you say, "lesley, i need the facts on this. i know we

have discussed before but i haven't got the answer front of mind. too many facts to hold in my head but this is an important one. i want to be sure i do have it." and then to mark, a phrase, faxing to answers but they like to take the conversation back available, ie, is one of our narrative boxes. but why did you consider the issue of remote access to be an important issue at that time? it access to be an important issue at that time? ., . access to be an important issue at that time? ~ , access to be an important issue at that time? . , ~ , that time? it was... as i said earlier. _ that time? it was... as i said earlier. it — that time? it was... as i said earlier, it was _ that time? it was... as i said earlier, it was an _ that time? it was... as i said earlier, it was an ongoing - that time? it was... as i said - earlier, it was an ongoing question. it was _ earlier, it was an ongoing question. it was something that was raised by postmasters in the cases that were being _ postmasters in the cases that were being looked at. it was a question that mr_ being looked at. it was a question that mr rudkin had raised. i may will have — that mr rudkin had raised. i may will have been reminded that second site were _ will have been reminded that second site were going to be asked about it. it site were going to be asked about it it was — site were going to be asked about it it was an— site were going to be asked about it. it was an important matter to know— it. it was an important matter to know about _ it. it was an important matter to know about and to be able to answer honestly _ know about and to be able to answer honestly and truthfully to the select — honestly and truthfully to the

select committee. so honestly and truthfully to the select committee.— honestly and truthfully to the select committee. so mr rudkin's alleaations select committee. so mr rudkin's allegations had _ select committee. so mr rudkin's allegations had been _ select committee. so mr rudkin's allegations had been put - select committee. so mr rudkin's allegations had been put to - select committee. so mr rudkin's allegations had been put to bed i select committee. so mr rudkin'sl allegations had been put to bed by then? i allegations had been put to bed by then? ., , . . , then? i thought they had he was either lying _ then? i thought they had he was either lying or— then? i thought they had he was either lying or mistaken - then? i thought they had he was. either lying or mistaken according to the _ either lying or mistaken according to the post office, he either had not been — to the post office, he either had not been to the building or if he had, _ not been to the building or if he had. he — not been to the building or if he had, he had got it all wrong when he went there — had, he had got it all wrong when he went there i— had, he had got it all wrong when he went there. i think the post office had explained to him that there was a test _ had explained to him that there was a test rig _ had explained to him that there was a test rig in — had explained to him that there was a test rig in the basement and it would _ a test rig in the basement and it would have been possible to access the system at that stage —— would not have _ the system at that stage —— would not have been possible to access the system _ not have been possible to access the system at _ not have been possible to access the system at that stage. but not have been possible to access the system at that stage.— not have been possible to access the system at that stage. but he thought this was an obvious _ system at that stage. but he thought this was an obvious question - system at that stage. but he thought this was an obvious question you - system at that stage. but he thought this was an obvious question you are | this was an obvious question you are going to be asked? x�*i�*es. this was an obvious question you are going to be asked? yes. going back to the previous page, at the foot of the page... you say, "what is the true answer? i hope it is that we know that this is not possible and we are able to explain why that is. i need to say no, it is not possible". why did you need to say publicly, to evidence to a select committee, that remote access was not possible?—

committee, that remote access was rrot possible?— not possible? i... i expected that this might _ not possible? i... i expected that this might be _ not possible? i... i expected that this might be a _ not possible? i... i expected that this might be a question, - not possible? i... i expected that this might be a question, as - not possible? i... i expected that this might be a question, as you| this might be a question, as you explained — this might be a question, as you explained before, that would come up. explained before, that would come up my— explained before, that would come up. my understanding was that it was not possible, and so, i wanted to be able to— not possible, and so, i wanted to be able to say— not possible, and so, i wanted to be able to say that but what i also wanted — able to say that but what i also wanted to be able to do was to explain — wanted to be able to do was to explain why i knew that was the case: _ explain why i knew that was the case, which is why i go on to say, "and _ case, which is why i go on to say, "and that — case, which is why i go on to say, "and that is — case, which is why i go on to say, "and that is because of x x x". but wh did "and that is because of x x x". but why did you — "and that is because of x x x". emit why did you need to say no, it is not possible? why did you need to say no, it is rrot possible?— not possible? i... i've phrased the... not possible? i... i've phrased the- -- i've _ not possible? i... i've phrased the... i've phrased _ not possible? i... i've phrased the... i've phrased this - not possible? i... i've phrased the... i've phrased this point l not possible? i... i've phrased i the... i've phrased this point very specifically— the... i've phrased this point very specifically and i can remember why i did this _ specifically and i can remember why i did this. alice perkins... not related — i did this. alice perkins... not related to _ i did this. alice perkins... not related to this particularly but i can remember alice perkins saying to

me at— can remember alice perkins saying to me at some _ can remember alice perkins saying to me at some stage, "paul, if you want to get— me at some stage, "paul, if you want to get the _ me at some stage, "paul, if you want to get the truth and a really clear answer— to get the truth and a really clear answer from somebody, you should tell them _ answer from somebody, you should tell them what it is you want to say very clearly — tell them what it is you want to say very clearly and then ask for the information that backs that up." that— information that backs that up." that was— information that backs that up." that was why i phrased this that way _ that was why i phrased this that wa . . . that was why i phrased this that wa , .. . .. ., that was why i phrased this that wa. . ., ., way. that is an odd way of going about things. — way. that is an odd way of going about things, isn't _ way. that is an odd way of going about things, isn't it _ way. that is an odd way of going about things, isn't it question i way. that is an odd way of going i about things, isn't it question blue wanting to know the answer to the question, here is the answer to the question. "tell me i am wrong". well, yes, i hoped they would do. this was— well, yes, i hoped they would do. this was a — well, yes, i hoped they would do. this was a very genuine attempt to be able _ this was a very genuine attempt to be able to— this was a very genuine attempt to be able to reassure the select... i believed _ be able to reassure the select... i believed this was absolutely the case _ believed this was absolutely the case i_ believed this was absolutely the case. i had... an obligation going before _ case. i had... an obligation going before the — case. i had... an obligation going before the select committee to be able to _ before the select committee to be able to share the information that i knew, _ able to share the information that i knew. and — able to share the information that i knew, and to be able to answer their questions _

knew, and to be able to answer their questions correctly and... this is what _ questions correctly and... this is what i _ questions correctly and... this is what i was — questions correctly and... this is what i was trying to ask for from the team — what i was trying to ask for from the team i— what i was trying to ask for from the team. i was not in any way, if you are. — the team. i was not in any way, if you are, forgive me, if you are suggesting this, trying to tell them what the _ suggesting this, trying to tell them what the answer should be. i thought ou said what the answer should be. i thought you said that — what the answer should be. i thought you said that is _ what the answer should be. i thought you said that is what _ what the answer should be. i thought you said that is what ms _ what the answer should be. i thought you said that is what ms perkins - you said that is what ms perkins said you should do in trying to get information out of people? yes, but it was not done... _ information out of people? yes, but it was not done... because - information out of people? yes, but it was not done... because i - it was not done... because i necessarily knew that this was the answer. _ necessarily knew that this was the answer, that this was... i necessarily knew that this was the answer, that this was. . ._ answer, that this was... i thought ou said answer, that this was... i thought you said a — answer, that this was... i thought you said a moment _ answer, that this was... i thought you said a moment ago, - answer, that this was... i thought you said a moment ago, you - answer, that this was... i thought - you said a moment ago, you believed it to be the answer. i did you said a moment ago, you believed it to be the answer.— it to be the answer. i did believe it to be the answer. i did believe it to be the _ it to be the answer. i did believe it to be the answer _ it to be the answer. i did believe it to be the answer so _ it to be the answer. i did believe it to be the answer so i - it to be the answer. i did believe it to be the answer so i wanted | it to be the answer. i did believe | it to be the answer so i wanted to be able _ it to be the answer so i wanted to be able to— it to be the answer so i wanted to be able to say to the select committee incomplete truth and sincerity — committee incomplete truth and sincerity that it was not possible to access — sincerity that it was not possible to access a _ sincerity that it was not possible to access a right account remotely without _ to access a right account remotely without the subpostmasters knowing and i wanted to explain what that is the case _ and i wanted to explain what that is the case. ~ ., �* ., , ., the case. wouldn't the honest and straightforward _ the case. wouldn't the honest and straightforward thing _ the case. wouldn't the honest and straightforward thing to _ the case. wouldn't the honest and straightforward thing to have - the case. wouldn't the honest and j straightforward thing to have done the to stop your reply to the question that you asked with the? ——

with a? —— punctuating it as if it was a question before the answer. i apologise, i'm giving you the truthful— apologise, i'm giving you the truthful answer on this, i apologise, i'm giving you the truthfulanswer on this, i remember why i— truthfulanswer on this, i remember why i phrased it this way, not because — why i phrased it this way, not because i— why i phrased it this way, not because i was trying to tell people what the _ because i was trying to tell people what the answer was at all. but because — what the answer was at all. but because i— what the answer was at all. but because i was trying to get them to phrase _ because i was trying to get them to phrase something in a way that said, from my— phrase something in a way that said, from my understanding, this is what it from my understanding, this is what it should _ from my understanding, this is what it should be, i have been told all over— it should be, i have been told all over the — it should be, i have been told all over the time that it was not possible. _ over the time that it was not possible, to explain to the select committee that that was absolutely the case _ committee that that was absolutely the case. ., ., ., , the case. you refer to a briefing that he received, _ the case. you refer to a briefing that he received, a _ the case. you refer to a briefing that he received, a briefing - the case. you refer to a briefing | that he received, a briefing pack and then an addendum to the briefing packs that you received, you refer

to that in your witness statement for the select committee hearing, and utilising your witness statement... sorry, this can come down, you tell us in the witness statement that you have no memory of seeing the addendum to the briefing pack which addresses remote access, at the time of the select committee, yes? i at the time of the select committee, es? . . , at the time of the select committee, es? , , , ., �* at the time of the select committee, es?, _ yes? i simply don't recall whether i did or i yes? i simply don't recall whether i did ori didn't. — yes? i simply don't recall whether i did or i didn't. in _ yes? i simply don't recall whether i did or i didn't. in your _ yes? i simply don't recall whether i did or i didn't. in your witness - did or i didn't. in your witness statement. — did or i didn't. in your witness statement, you _ did or i didn't. in your witness statement, you say _ did or i didn't. in your witness statement, you say that - did or i didn't. in your witness statement, you say that you i did or i didn't. in your witness - statement, you say that you have no memory of seeing it. by that, do you mean... i undoubtedly got it but i can't recall its contents now? yes, i think so- — can't recall its contents now? yes, i think so- can _ can't recall its contents now? yes, i think so. can we _ can't recall its contents now? yes, i think so. can we look— can't recall its contents now? yes, i think so. can we look at - can't recall its contents now? yes, i think so. can we look at how - can't recall its contents now? yes, i think so. can we look at how you | i think so. can we look at how you not it, i think so. can we look at how you got it. first? _ i think so. can we look at how you got it, first? poll— i think so. can we look at how you got it, first? poll 00117096. - an e—mail, now the day before the

select committee hearing at 5:54pm, so it is the 2nd of february, 2015, an e—mailfrom jailing so it is the 2nd of february, 2015, an e—mailfromjailing —— so it is the 2nd of february, 2015, an e—mailfrom jailing ——jane hill the head of public affairs to you with an attachment, addendum document, and a scheme, key facts document. it is only the first i am interested in, and she says, dear paula, please find attached two final briefing documents, won the addendum to friday's briefing pack including our position on claims suspense account, second sight information, request and remote access, i will bring hard copies with me to breakfast tomorrow, i'll see you then. " looking at the distribution list on that, given that the document is significantly

about it issues, do you know why lesley sewell is not one of the people mentioned? i don't. i assume that lesley sewell was involved in the process, but these _ was involved in the process, but these are~~~ _ was involved in the process, but these are... no, i don't know why leslie _ these are... no, idon't know why leslie is— these are... no, idon't know why leslie is not— these are... no, i don't know why leslie is not copied, actually, i hadn't — leslie is not copied, actually, i hadn't noticed that before. is this riuht? hadn't noticed that before. is this right? you _ hadn't noticed that before. is this right? you wouldn't _ hadn't noticed that before. is this right? you wouldn't have - hadn't noticed that before. is this right? you wouldn't have known i hadn't noticed that before. is this i right? you wouldn't have known how the document itself would have been created, ie, what work would have gone into it. i created, ie, what work would have gone into it— gone into it. i do now but i wouldn't — gone into it. i do now but i wouldn't -- _ gone into it. i do now but i wouldn't -- didn't - gone into it. i do now but i wouldn't -- didn't at - gone into it. i do now but i wouldn't -- didn't at the i gone into it. i do now but i - wouldn't -- didn't at the time. wouldn't —— didn't at the time. let's _ wouldn't —— didn't at the time. let's look— wouldn't —— didn't at the time. let's look at _ wouldn't —— didn't at the time. let's look at that addendum. poll 00117097. wrote this is the attachment, if we can display pages 1—2 side by side.

it looks like we cannot display the whole of page one. it is a two page document. . whole of page one. it is a two page document-- it _ whole of page one. it is a two page document. yes. it is quite a short document. _ document. yes. it is quite a short document, quite _ document. yes. it is quite a short document, quite busy, yes? yes. | document, quite busy, yes? yes. with... 0h. _ document, quite busy, yes? yes. with... oh, thank _ document, quite busy, yes? yes. with... oh, thank you, _ document, quite busy, yes? yes. with... oh, thank you, with - document, quite busy, yes? yes. with... oh, thank you, with bullet points, with headings, mediation stats, claims, expense accounts, second sight request for information and then remote tampering, as it is called, yes? and then remote tampering, as it is called. yes?— and then remote tampering, as it is called. yes?- if— and then remote tampering, as it is called, yes? yes. if wejust look at called, yes? yes. if we “ust look at the briefing — called, yes? yes. if we “ust look at the briefing you t called, yes? yes. if we just look at the briefing you were having for your appearance before parliament on remote tampering, if we look at that page two, please... blow up a bit,

thank you very much, this is essentially the answer to your e—mail. yes. just looking at the way that it e—mail. yes. just looking at the way thatitis e—mail. yes. just looking at the way that it is arranged, would you agree that it is arranged, would you agree that the first four bullet points set out what you are to say? if you are pushed, you can then say the next three things? and then, if injection of new transactions into a branch account is raised, then you can say the next thing is, yes? yes. just looking — can say the next thing is, yes? yes. just looking at _ can say the next thing is, yes? yes. just looking at the _ can say the next thing is, yes? yes. just looking at the scheme of the document, it contains a top line, essentially, of what you are to volunteer, then an account of what you are to say if you are pushed, and then what more to say if you are really pushed. is that right? it

is... that is the way it appears, yes _ is... that is the way it appears, yes i— is... that is the way it appears, yes i don't _ is... that is the way it appears, yes. i don't suppose i would have taken _ yes. i don't suppose i would have taken its — yes. i don't suppose i would have taken its necessarily that way, but yes. taken its necessarily that way, but es. �* . taken its necessarily that way, but es. �* , ., ., “ taken its necessarily that way, but es. �*, ., ., ., yes. let's look at what you are allowed to _ yes. let's look at what you are allowed to say _ yes. let's look at what you are allowed to say before - yes. let's look at what you are allowed to say before you - yes. let's look at what you are allowed to say before you are l allowed to say before you are pushed. the first four bullet points, transaction data... there will be a general election called today, has not given an answer, so we are waiting to hear anything official, but as i say, the guardian's political editor is reporting that rishi sunak is going to call a summer election. that will be very significant news if it is going to be confirmed. our deputy political editor vicki young is just about to join me political editor vicki young is just about tojoin me on political editor vicki young is just about to join me on the political editor vicki young is just about tojoin me on the programme, at a rainy downing street but let me bring you in, you are ready to go. give me the latest. 50.

bring you in, you are ready to go. give me the latest.— bring you in, you are ready to go. give me the latest. so, the latest is that officially, _ give me the latest. so, the latest is that officially, no _ give me the latest. so, the latest is that officially, no one _ give me the latest. so, the latest is that officially, no one knows i is that officially, no one knows anything apart from presumably a few people inside number 10, close to the prime minister. i think all we can do it this stage is look at the signs, look at the things that have been happening and decide what they points towards. it has to be said that they all suggest that a general election is about to be called but of course, nothing has been made official. so we have a cabinet meeting taking place, starting imminently. we know that various cabinet ministers have either delayed or shortened trips abroad to come and attend that. that is pretty unusual. it is not unusual that the cabinet meeting is happening today because yesterday when it was supposed to have taken place, the prime minister was abroad so it is being rescheduled. but the fact senior figures are coming back to attend this cabinet meeting suggests that there is something more happening. the other very basic point is that all morning there has been speculation as to whether this could be the day when a general election is called, and unlike on

other occasions when that has happened in recent months, there has been no denial, no formal denial from downing street saying it is not going to happen. this has happened before, we have had some crunch points where certain dates have arrived and people have talked about whether there is going to be an election called on downing street have basically said, no, it is not happening but that has not happened on this occasion so that is why people are speculating we could be heading towards an election, maybe as soon as the llth ofjuly. it as soon as the 4th ofjuly. it reminds me, all of this, of the moments around gordon brown, fevered speculation there would be an election and ultimately, he decided not to go, and that of course causing huge amount of problems but so many pointers, so many correspondence since this morning when the inflation figure stop, asking the question, and as you say, it has been very interesting that downing street has not squashed this straightaway. downing street has not squashed this straiihtawa . . downing street has not squashed this

straiihtawa . , ., ., , downing street has not squashed this straightaway-— straightaway. yes, i mean, lots of --eole straightaway. yes, i mean, lots of people talking _ straightaway. yes, i mean, lots of people talking about _ straightaway. yes, i mean, lots of people talking about gordon i straightaway. yes, i mean, lots of. people talking about gordon brown. obviously, there were some big differences there. he was very soon into his tenure, he did not have to call an election in that year, he was ahead in the polls and enjoying a honeymoon period so lots of people said he should go for it. this of course could not be more different. an election has to be held by the end of january next year. rishi sunak has said that he was working towards an election in the second half of this year and of course, technically, that good start on the 1st ofjuly so he could still be fulfilling that promise, as it were. and of course, he is not a head in the opinion polls. so i think there is an interesting point about why he didn't choose the date of the may local elections, the last big bout of speculation was then, he did not go for it, then but what has changed. i think interestingly, the figures today, the inflation figures of course, they have come down hugely but another thing has happened, too, the markets are suggesting they don't think there

will be an interest rate cut as quickly as many people, certainly those with mortgages, would have hoped. in that case, what is rishi sunak waiting for? what does he want to change between now and the autumn when lots of people thought there might be a general election? he might be a general election? he might have been expecting flights to rwanda to take off which could still happen between now and july will stop but of course, the other possibility is that many migrants will continue to arrive over the summer in boats across the channel. it looks like the economic news is getting slightly better but there will be hundreds of thousands of people coming off fixed term mortgages in the next few months and they will definitely be feeling a lot worse. you could make an argument of course, you could make an argument anyway, to say that now is the time to go but for him, it is a massive gamble in many ways, there are not many prime ministers that go to the polls earlier than they need to, when they are so far behind in opinion polls. but clearly, there are lots of conservatives hoping they can tighten that. i are lots of conservatives hoping

they can tighten that.— are lots of conservatives hoping they can tighten that. i will come back to that _ they can tighten that. i will come back to that thought _ they can tighten that. i will come back to that thought because i they can tighten that. i will come back to that thought because it i they can tighten that. i will come | back to that thought because it is significant, but as we get all of the different strands of information, let me also tell you that itv news was make deputy political editor is saying the uk election will be held on the llth of july. again, more fragments of information coming from different avenues. we wait and i understand that you are there in downing street waiting for the official announcement, that cabinet is happening and we also know that a variety of travel plans were altered so again, another signal that this perhaps is a different kind of cabinet meeting.— perhaps is a different kind of cabinet meeting. perhaps is a different kind of cabinet meetini. , , .. , cabinet meeting. yes, because we know that if _ cabinet meeting. yes, because we know that if it — cabinet meeting. yes, because we know that if it was _ cabinet meeting. yes, because we know that if it was to _ cabinet meeting. yes, because we know that if it was to be _ cabinet meeting. yes, because we know that if it was to be called i know that if it was to be called this week, it would be on the llth of july. this week, it would be on the llth of july, that is the date. of course, parliament would have to be dissolved. the monarch would have to be asked to dissolve parliament. we have no idea whether that has happened privately without us knowing or whether that might be something that would happen later this evening. parliament then normally sits for a few days, you

have to rush up, it is basically trying to get through some last bits of legislation and that is interesting, too. there are several pieces of legislation that have not made it through, yet, the one particularly rishi sunak would be looking at is the one about effectively banning smoking for a generation and restrictions on vaping. we think that that is one thatis vaping. we think that that is one that is not controversial in the sense that the proposition is agreed with and that could be got through parliament early next week before the election campaign starts in earnest. ., ., . ., , , earnest. you touched on it because in terms of — earnest. you touched on it because in terms of where _ earnest. you touched on it because in terms of where we _ earnest. you touched on it because in terms of where we are _ earnest. you touched on it because in terms of where we are in - earnest. you touched on it because in terms of where we are in the i in terms of where we are in the political cycle, i know we are coming to the end of this term, but this is a prime minister calling an election potentially where he is trailing in the polls by, what? an average of 20 percentage points. that is quite a decision in terms of fundamental risk. it is

that is quite a decision in terms of fundamental risk.— fundamental risk. it is and i think that is why _ fundamental risk. it is and i think that is why they _ fundamental risk. it is and i think that is why they thought - fundamental risk. it is and i think that is why they thought was i fundamental risk. it is and i think that is why they thought was he l that is why they thought was he could go as long as he could, really in the hope that something would turn up, that is certainly what dots of conservative mps have felt. i have been in the house of commons today talking to a lot of them and a lot of them could not quite believe he was going to call a general election today. partly that is because dozens of them are standing down and dozens of them of course are expecting to lose their seats if things stay as they are. so i think going to the polls earlier than you need to come when you have such a huge mountain to climb is pretty unusual. but they do point to various occasions in the past, theresa may when she was prime minister went for a snap general election when she was ahead in the polls and she lost the conservatives their majority. 50 the election campaign itself absolutely changed everything and that of course is what conservatives are hoping might happen this time but of course the

other way around. they think they can close the gap on labour. and other way around. they think they can close the gap on labour. and of course, can close the gap on labour. and of course. the — can close the gap on labour. and of course, the strategist _ can close the gap on labour. and of course, the strategist will _ can close the gap on labour. and of course, the strategist will have i course, the strategist will have pored over this but in one sense, you can see how you could build a narrative, if you are sitting there in number 10, narrative, if you are sitting there in number10, you narrative, if you are sitting there in number 10, you could build a narrative that interest rates are coming down or are likely to come down, inflation is already down, perhaps midway in a campaign, you might see the first of the flights taking off, and in a sense, building a narrative like that, you can see the advantages as opposed to waiting for a reality later in the year, where perhaps people do have more money in their pockets but don't significantly feel a lot better off and reality as opposed to narrative then kicks in. and reality as opposed to narrative then kicks im— then kicks in. yes, look, ithink ou then kicks in. yes, look, ithink you heard _ then kicks in. yes, look, ithink you heard it— then kicks in. yes, look, ithink you heard it today _ then kicks in. yes, look, ithink you heard it today from - then kicks in. yes, look, ithink you heard it today from the i you heard it today from the chancellorjeremy hunt. he was doing the broadcast rounds this morning and he was, not surprisingly, given what has happened in the last few years for the conservative government, talking about is

conservatives' record but the future and what happens next, sticking to the plan. that is going to be at the very centre of the conservatives' election campaign. they argue that rishi sunak came in after a turbulent time, after liz truss and borisjohnson, he came in and steadied the ship and he can continue to do that stuff of course, labour will want to talk about the conservatives' record in government, particularly on the economy, absolutely central to all of that, it is the issue that voters talk about most which is not surprising with the cost of living crisis that we have had and all the difficulties that people have faced. it is going to be absolutely central to this election campaign when it comes, but for the conservatives, it is going to be about what they promise to do in the future, hoping, i guess, that lots of voters will forget some of the things that have happened in the past. it the things that have happened in the -ast. . . the things that have happened in the -ast. , , , .. , past. it is interesting because i was looking — past. it is interesting because i was looking at _ past. it is interesting because i was looking at the _

past. it is interesting because i was looking at the various i past. it is interesting because i i was looking at the various parties, all of the leaders, and when you look across the whole sweep, most of the leaders, if not all of the major parties, we'll be new to leading their party into a general election campaign. —— they will be new. that campaign. -- they will be new. that is riiht campaign. -- they will be new. that is right and — campaign. -- they will be new. that is right and that _ campaign. —— they will be new. trust is right and that does not happen very often but that is going to be the case this time around, sir keir starmer, of course, leading the labour party and sir ed davey leading the liberal democrats, and it is interesting for leaders, a lot of them feel that the voters don't really come if you have not been prime minister, get to know much about you until you go through the general election campaign. they will be facing huge scrutiny. labour know the scrutiny is coming. let's face it, the conservatives have really taken all the attention, shall we put it that way, over the last few years and what will happen now as we head into a general election if it is confirmed this afternoon, there will be a lot more scrutiny of some of the things that labour has been

saying, particularly as they have a position at the moment where the polls suggest they are in front. people will be a lot more keen to know what their plans are. they have not given huge amounts of detail about what they would do and that would be scrutinised endlessly for weeks. that has not happened to them yet. that is an absolute test, of course, for sir keir starmer and it is for the other leaders as well. these campaigns do have great importance. it willappear these campaigns do have great importance. it will appear on our tv screens every single night. it will be online and in all the newspapers. it will dominate a lot of things although it if —— if it isjuly the 4th, people are also commenting that is during wimbledon and the euros so there might be some other distractions as well.- there might be some other distractions as well. stay with us, -len distractions as well. stay with us, plenty more _ distractions as well. stay with us, plenty more over— distractions as well. stay with us, plenty more over the _ distractions as well. stay with us, plenty more over the coming i distractions as well. stay with us, i plenty more over the coming minutes but for any viewer is just joining us here on bbc news, as the helicopter shows us the pictures above westminster, a frenzy of speculation and attention, focused on number 10 because we are waiting

for the official announcement, but let me tell you, the afp news agency, as we can see on the screen, is reporting that there will be a uk general election to be held on the 4th general election to be held on the llth ofjuly and that is what we heard also reported by itv�*s deputy political editor, naming that date as well. the guardian's political editor saying there will be a sum election. a lot of sources are reporting a sum election and the dates that you saw on the screen, the 4th dates that you saw on the screen, the llth ofjuly, they prime minister was asked at prime minister's questions but sort of sidestepped the question by saying there would be an election in the second half of the year, and of course, the llth of july. the year, and of course, the llth of july, that would just creep over that line. that is what the prime

minister has said officially, but we are waiting for the confirmation, presumably, if we are going to get an election called, there will be a statement from rishi sunak in the coming minutes, and also, we will see the starting gun fired for an election, and of course, normally, it is, and it looks like it will be, a six—week campaign and as i was saying to vicki young, it is going to be a new experience forjust about all of the party leaders, when you think of rishi sunak and keir starmer and using of ed davey, they will be leading their parties into an election for the first time. we are about tojoin an election for the first time. we are about to join viewers and reeta chakrabarti in downing street for continuous coverage of a potential election announcement in the next few moments, but you are watching helicopter pictures above westminster with this fevered speculation about a uk election

being called, as i say, afp is reporting that they will be a uk general election on the llth ofjuly. we are hearing the same from itv�*s deputy political editor andy guardian's political editor also reporting a summer election. that is the backdrop and i am going to pass you to reeta chakrabarti who is in downing street to take you through the next few hours. over to you. hello and welcome to this bbc news special. i'm reeta chakrabarti in downing street, and this is the scene in westminster, where all afternoon, speculation has been growing that the prime minister is about to make some sort of announcement, possibly concerning a general election. earlier, our political editor chris mason observed that he was seeing behaviour from the likes of the

civil service that you" would only expect on a day that an election is called" and also reports that home office ministers' diaries are being cleared. you won't be able to see this, but there are about 115 journalists here, or waiting expecta ntly. journalists here, or waiting expectantly. we don't yet know whether an announcement will be made, but that speculation has been growing all day and has reached a pitch this afternoon. i am joined now by our political editor chris mason. ~ ., ., now by our political editor chris mason. ~ . ., .. ., now by our political editor chris mason. ~ ., ., ,, ., mason. what do we know? it looks likel that mason. what do we know? it looks likely that we _ mason. what do we know? it looks likely that we are _ mason. what do we know? it looks likely that we are going _ mason. what do we know? it looks likely that we are going to - mason. what do we know? it looks likely that we are going to hear- likely that we are going to hear from the prime minister soon and he will tell us that parliament will be dissolved and there will be a general election this summer, perhaps at the beginning ofjuly. so we have had a day where, as you were mentioning, there have been elements of choreography slotting into place, where every element could have had a plausible alternative explanation.

cabinet meetings happen every week,