towards the centre, she actually said that the conservative party had swung too far towards the right and it was for that reason she was defecting to the labour party. i think the struggle now will be the conservatives trying to convince the public that they do have a clear message. where are they on the political spectrum? keir starmer is dominating that centre ground. it is auoin to be dominating that centre ground. it is going to be fascinating. thank you, i know you will stay with us as we get more detail from the i know you will stay with us as we get more detailfrom the campaign trail is more of those leaders get out there to meet voters and start answering some of those questions. we have talked about some of the key issues. let's see what the issues could be in scotland. thank you for being i want to start with the timing of all this the simply had new leader and it is not the best timing? new leader and it is not the best timin: ? ., ., �* ., new leader and it is not the best timinu? ., ., �* ., . timing? you don't get to choose when ou are timing? you don't get to choose when you are invaded. _ timing? you don't get to choose when you are invaded. this _ timing? you don't get to choose when you are invaded. this is _ timing? you don't get to choose when you are invaded. this is the _ you are invaded. this is the nonsense of the uk system, that one

person gets to decide from his own perspective from his own advantage, the date of the election. this was a huge mistake at the parliaments act for the whole of politics will stop we are where we are and we are good to go. we have been ready since the 2nd of may. we were working towards that so now we have moved things forward a bit. we are good to go and i have been out and about the last several months and have never stopped campaigning. we are good to go in this election. what are people telling you they want you to deliver? cost of living, cost of living, cost of living. within scotland, independence back into the european union, that is a salient issue i've got pensioners who can see a wind farm from their houses, getting in touch with me, asking why are i electricity bills as high as they are, allegedly because of the wholesale gas price at the war in

ukraine. the british energy market is utterly broken and we need to change how we do that. we are seeing the cost of living crisis and there are global factors and the legacy of the pandemic as well. only one country in the world inflicted brexit on itself and brexit has made everything more difficult, everything more difficult, everything more difficult, everything more awkward, and less easy to deal with. there are a lot of things we need to work on but we need a strong voice for scotland within the westminster set up and thatis within the westminster set up and that is what we will be working on. when you are on the doorstep do you get a sense from voters that they want a return to, dare i say, more boring politics? they want more routine politics, not the dramas that we have seen in recent years that we have seen in recent years that have engulfed this place. they just want to return to something thatis just want to return to something that is about voting for someone who will deliver on their priorities. i couldn't agree more. that is where the snp is an unusual party in that

we are the stable, sober responsible party of government in scotland. at westminster we are presenting a radical constitutional alternative. westminster has been in chaos for the last few years. we had boris johnson, liz truss with the chaos of her mini budget which is still hurting people their bank balances in their daly lives. people do want an end to this chaos. they want people to represent their values to be serious about what the job entails, what we need to do. i get that day in daly when i'm out about in sterling and strathallan. that is what i hope i have been doing for the last years and that is what i will do going forward for the next few years to come. we will do going forward for the next few years to come.— will do going forward for the next few years to come. we will keep a close e e few years to come. we will keep a close eye on _ few years to come. we will keep a close eye on that. _ few years to come. we will keep a close eye on that. alan _ few years to come. we will keep a close eye on that. alan smith, - few years to come. we will keep a i close eye on that. alan smith, good to talk to you, the snp mp. we are following events at the post office inquiry. it is day two at the

inquiry. yesterday was a difficult day to watch and she broke down on a number of occasions when answering questions about what she knew and didn't know when she took thatjob related to the prosecution of sub—postmasters related to that faulty technology that was involved in that horizon it system. it meant a number were imprisoned and one took his own life as a result of those mismatches in the numbers. the numbers that were shown up by the it system. let's listen to some more of that evidence. that might give an intention of something that was that more planned that might have been an occasional example. . that might have been an occasional examle. ., ., ~' that might have been an occasional examle. ., ., ~ ., that might have been an occasional examle. ., ~ that might have been an occasional examle. . ~ ,�*, example. , look at mr davies's

rel ? example. , look at mr davies's reply? at _ example. , look at mr davies's reply? at the _ example. , look at mr davies's reply? at the foot _ example. , look at mr davies's reply? at the foot of _ example. , look at mr davies's reply? at the foot of the - example. , look at mr davies's reply? at the foot of the page. example. , look at mr davies's i reply? at the foot of the page. hi paula. _ reply? at the foot of the page. hi paula. can — reply? at the foot of the page. hi paula, can we have a word at some point _ paula, can we have a word at some point today— paula, can we have a word at some point today to discuss this and specifically how far we go in terms of the _ specifically how far we go in terms of the wording below. i am sending this of the wording below. i am sending thisjust _ of the wording below. i am sending thisjust to— of the wording below. i am sending thisjust to you of the wording below. i am sending this just to you at this stage. i am very concerned that we may get into a position. _ very concerned that we may get into a position, sorry, get to a position. _ a position, sorry, get to a position, where we go so far in our commitments that we actually feel the story— commitments that we actually feel the story and turn it into something bigger— the story and turn it into something bigger than it is. i am not at all complacent about the issues but there _ complacent about the issues but there is— complacent about the issues but there is a — complacent about the issues but there is a real danger in going too far irr— there is a real danger in going too far in commitments about past cases. this is— far in commitments about past cases. this is for— far in commitments about past cases. this is for two reasons. first the substance — this is for two reasons. first the substance of the report doesn't justify— substance of the report doesn't justify this response. indeed the

response — justify this response. indeed the response is at such a level that our current— response is at such a level that our current strategy would mean there would _ current strategy would mean there would he _ current strategy would mean there would be some coverage but not much. if we would be some coverage but not much. if we say— would be some coverage but not much. if we say publicly we will look at past cases, whether from recent history— past cases, whether from recent history or— past cases, whether from recent history or going further back, we would _ history or going further back, we would open this up very significantly into front page news. in significantly into front page news. in media — significantly into front page news. in media terms it becomes mainstream, very high profile. it will also — mainstream, very high profile. it will also give james arbuthnot a strong _ will also give james arbuthnot a strong case for asking for a parliamentary statement from this. my second — parliamentary statement from this. my second concern is the impact this would _ my second concern is the impact this would have _ my second concern is the impact this would have more broadly. it would have the _ would have more broadly. it would have the ballistic impact which may fears _ have the ballistic impact which may fears it _ have the ballistic impact which may fears. it would lead to a very public — fears. it would lead to a very public narrative about the nature of the business, raising questions atrout— the business, raising questions about horizon. the reality of what second _ about horizon. the reality of what second site has found would be understood and having an impact on public— understood and having an impact on public news — understood and having an impact on public news about the post office, and really — public news about the post office, and really widening the issue to the

whole _ and really widening the issue to the whole network. do you agree that mr davies _ whole network. do you agree that mr davies is _ whole network. do you agree that mr davies is here giving you personal advice _ davies is here giving you personal advice on — davies is here giving you personal advice on the extent to which past convictions — advice on the extent to which past convictions are reviewed on the basis _ convictions are reviewed on the basis of— convictions are reviewed on the basis of the extent of the media coverage, — basis of the extent of the media coverage, that each decision might generate? — coverage, that each decision might generate? my coverage, that each decision might venerate? y . ., coverage, that each decision might venerate? g , ., ., generate? my understanding at the time was that _ generate? my understanding at the time was that he, _ generate? my understanding at the time was that he, and _ generate? my understanding at the time was that he, and i _ generate? my understanding at the time was that he, and i think - generate? my understanding at the time was that he, and i think the i time was that he, and i think the post office generally, and we have seen similar comments from the chairman as well, believed we were dealing with a small number of cases and the numbers that were coming forward seemed to, at that stage— clearly more came later — seem to indicate that was the case. the inquiry heard from mark davies last week, i think,

inquiry heard from mark davies last week, ithink, where inquiry heard from mark davies last week, i think, where he explained, and that was my understanding at the time, that what he was trying to do was minimise misinterpretation. it was minimise misinterpretation. it was wrong, because clearly, if all past cases needed investigating the needed investigated, but at the time that wasn't what the post office thought. i think what he was trying to do here was to minimise misinterpretation and exaggeration in the media. d0 misinterpretation and exaggeration in the media-— misinterpretation and exaggeration in the media. do you agree that his first oint in the media. do you agree that his first point says. _ in the media. do you agree that his first point says, you _ in the media. do you agree that his first point says, you should - in the media. do you agree that his first point says, you should make i in the media. do you agree that his first point says, you should make a| first point says, you should make a decision— first point says, you should make a decision about the extent to which you review— decision about the extent to which you review possible past miscarriages ofjustice by reference to the _ miscarriages ofjustice by reference to the extent of media coverage it would _ to the extent of media coverage it would generate? it to the extent of media coverage it would generate?— would generate? it could be read that wa .

would generate? it could be read that wav- ls _ would generate? it could be read that way. is there _ would generate? it could be read that way. is there another - would generate? it could be read that way. is there another way i would generate? it could be read that way. is there another way ofj that way. is there another way of readin: that way. is there another way of reading it? _ that way. is there another way of reading it? i— that way. is there another way of reading it? i wouldn't _ that way. is there another way of reading it? i wouldn't have... - that way. is there another way of| reading it? i wouldn't have... and if there is, — reading it? i wouldn't have... and if there is, please _ reading it? i wouldn't have... and if there is, please explain - reading it? i wouldn't have... and if there is, please explain which i if there is, please explain which words _ if there is, please explain which words help to read it in a different wav _ words help to read it in a different wav he _ words help to read it in a different wav he is — words help to read it in a different way. he is saying, don't go back ten years. _ way. he is saying, don't go back ten years. or— way. he is saying, don't go back ten years. or say— way. he is saying, don't go back ten years, or say you will go back ten years _ years, or say you will go back ten years our— years, or say you will go back ten years. our current approach would mean _ years. our current approach would mean there — years. our current approach would mean there is going to be some coverage — mean there is going to be some coverage but not very much, the usual— coverage but not very much, the usual suspects. if we say we will look— usual suspects. if we say we will look back— usual suspects. if we say we will look back at past cases we will be on the _ look back at past cases we will be on the front page. isn't he directly sayingm — on the front page. isn't he directly sayingm l— on the front page. isn't he directly sa in: . .. .., on the front page. isn't he directly sa inc... . on the front page. isn't he directly sa in... . . on the front page. isn't he directly sa in... , . , saying... i can see what he is sa in: saying... i can see what he is saying but — saying... i can see what he is saying but my _ saying... i can see what he is saying but my mindset - saying... i can see what he is saying but my mindset at - saying... i can see what he is saying but my mindset at thej saying... i can see what he is - saying but my mindset at the time, when i received this, is that we were working on specific cases that were working on specific cases that were coming forwards and we opened

up... were coming forwards and we opened u - . .. ., were coming forwards and we opened u n i i i ., ., ., were coming forwards and we opened up... no, no, no. the e-mailthat ou had up... no, no, no. the e-mailthat you had sent. _ up... no, no, no. the e-mailthat you had sent, which _ up... no, no, no. the e-mailthat you had sent, which this - up... no, no, no. the e-mailthat you had sent, which this is - up... no, no, no. the e-mailthat you had sent, which this is a - you had sent, which this is a response. _ you had sent, which this is a response, posits, shall we look back 12- months— response, posits, shall we look back 12— months 18 in separation or should — 12— months 18 in separation or should we _ 12— months 18 in separation or should we go back further. why are we going _ should we go back further. why are we going back further, five to ten years? _ we going back further, five to ten years? and — we going back further, five to ten years? and this says, you can't do that. _ years? and this says, you can't do that. you — years? and this says, you can't do that, you will be on the front page. that is— that, you will be on the front page. that is a _ that, you will be on the front page. that is a grossly improper perspective. that is a grossly improper perspective-— that is a grossly improper perspective.- do | that is a grossly improper. perspective.- do you that is a grossly improper- perspective.- do you know perspective. yes it is. do you know wh he perspective. yes it is. do you know why he cut — perspective. yes it is. do you know why he cut everyone _ perspective. yes it is. do you know why he cut everyone else - perspective. yes it is. do you know why he cut everyone else out - perspective. yes it is. do you know why he cut everyone else out of. perspective. yes it is. do you know| why he cut everyone else out of the chain _ why he cut everyone else out of the chain and _ why he cut everyone else out of the chain and to — why he cut everyone else out of the chain and to you? no, why he cut everyone else out of the chain and to you?— why he cut everyone else out of the chain and to you?_ was | chain and to you? no, i don't. was he a trusted _ chain and to you? no, i don't. was he a trusted advisor? _ chain and to you? no, i don't. was he a trusted advisor? he _ chain and to you? no, i don't. was he a trusted advisor? he was - chain and to you? no, i don't. was l he a trusted advisor? he was trusted b all of he a trusted advisor? he was trusted by all of the — he a trusted advisor? he was trusted by all of the team. _ he a trusted advisor? he was trusted by all of the team. as _ he a trusted advisor? he was trusted by all of the team. as i _ he a trusted advisor? he was trusted by all of the team. as i said - by all of the team. as i said yesterday i trusted all of the team. none of the more than the others. did you remain in contact with mr davies— did you remain in contact with mr davies after you left the post office? — davies after you left the post office? i— davies after you left the post office?- did _ davies after you left the post office?- did you - davies after you left the post office? i did. did you exchange messages _ office? i did. did you exchange messages with _ office? i did. did you exchange messages with him _ office? i did. did you exchange messages with him about - office? i c c did you exchange messages with him about media statements that you might make in the media —

statements that you might make in the media line is that you might take? _ the media line is that you might take? lines you might take in the announcement of this inquiry? | announcement of this inquiry? believe announcement of this inquiry? i believe the inquiry has texts that show that. ., , ., ., ., show that. even though you had moved on, he was show that. even though you had moved on. he was still — show that. even though you had moved on, he was still advising _ show that. even though you had moved on, he was still advising you _ show that. even though you had moved on, he was still advising you into - on, he was still advising you into 2020. _ on, he was still advising you into 2020. as— on, he was still advising you into 2020, as the lines to take in your media _ 2020, as the lines to take in your media statements. | 2020, as the lines to take in your media statements.— media statements. i had kept in touch with _ media statements. i had kept in touch with mr— media statements. i had kept in touch with mr davies _ media statements. i had kept in touch with mr davies for - media statements. i had kept in| touch with mr davies for reasons that were very personal to him and i think he offered that advice at the time. to think he offered that advice at the time. ., . ., ~ time. to what extent did what mr davies advice _ time. to what extent did what mr davies advice here _ time. to what extent did what mr davies advice here affect - time. to what extent did what mr davies advice here affect your - davies advice here affect your decision— davies advice here affect your decision making? i davies advice here affect your decision making?— davies advice here affect your decision making? i would never, it was not the _ decision making? i would never, it was not the l _ decision making? i would never, it was not the i worked, _ decision making? i would never, it was not the i worked, taken - decision making? i would never, it was not the i worked, taken a - was not the i worked, taken a decision based on the advice of one

colleague. never. my way of working was to take as many different views as i possibly could and to involve those individuals in the decision as much as i possibly could. . those individuals in the decision as much as i possibly could.— much as i possibly could. , look at the to much as i possibly could. , look at the tap of — much as i possibly could. , look at the tap of page — much as i possibly could. , look at the top of page one _ much as i possibly could. , look at the top of page one please. - much as i possibly could. , look at the top of page one please. your. the top of page one please. your reply _ the top of page one please. your reply. mark, thanks for this, the top of page one please. your reply. mark, thanks forthis, i don't— reply. mark, thanks forthis, i don't think— reply. mark, thanks forthis, i don't think we are too far apart. i didn't— don't think we are too far apart. i didn't say— don't think we are too far apart. i didn't say this approach would be our media — didn't say this approach would be our media statement but but they need _ our media statement but but they need to— our media statement but but they need to be aligned. you are right to call this— need to be aligned. you are right to call this out — need to be aligned. you are right to call this out. i will take your stay — call this out. i will take your stay you _ call this out. i will take your stay. you did take the advice of the pr guy. _ stay. you did take the advice of the pr guy, didn't you? | stay. you did take the advice of the pr guy. didn't you?_ pr guy, didn't you? i really don't remember _ pr guy, didn't you? i really don't remember it _ pr guy, didn't you? i really don't remember it relating _ pr guy, didn't you? i really don't remember it relating to - pr guy, didn't you? i really don't remember it relating to the - remember it relating to the decision. laughing fauna

puma mughing _ . as i tried to say before. what laughing . as i tried to sa before. what we . as i tried to say before. what we were working _ . as i tried to say before. what we were working to _ . as i tried to say before. what we were working to at _ . as i tried to say before. what we were working to at that _ . as i tried to say before. what we were working to at that stage - . as i tried to say before. what we were working to at that stage was| were working to at that stage was numbers of cases going through the scheme and a scheme that was going to be opened up to anyone who wants to be opened up to anyone who wants to come forwards. i understand how this reads but i don't recall making any conscious decision not to go back and put in place a review of all past criminal cases. my conviction as we were going forwards in this was that this scheme would enable any case that any postmaster that wanted their case to be reviewed that the scheme would allow for that. ., .., reviewed that the scheme would allow for that. ., _, ., for that. you continue, there are two objectives- _ for that. you continue, there are two objectives. the _ for that. you continue, there are two objectives. the most - for that. you continue, there are two objectives. the most urgent| two objectives. the most urgent being _ two objectives. the most urgent being to — two objectives. the most urgent being to manage the media. the second _ being to manage the media. the second is— being to manage the media. the second is to make sure we do address

the concerns— second is to make sure we do address the concerns ofjames arbuthnot and alan bates, mainly looking forwards. but we _ alan bates, mainly looking forwards. but we should be aware of alan bates' — but we should be aware of alan bates' driver which is really justice _ bates' driver which is really justice for the past, otherwise they will call— justice for the past, otherwise they will call for — justice for the past, otherwise they will call for reopening cases. yes. it ma be will call for reopening cases. yes. it may be that _ will call for reopening cases. yes. it may be that we _ will call for reopening cases. yes. it may be that we get _ will call for reopening cases. yes. it may be that we get to - will call for reopening cases. fies it may be that we get to manage alan bates— it may be that we get to manage alan bates and _ it may be that we get to manage alan bates and james arbuthnot by playing on the _ bates and james arbuthnot by playing on the go _ bates and james arbuthnot by playing on the go ballistic view, ie meets in private — on the go ballistic view, ie meets in private to hear his views about these _ in private to hear his views about these cases— in private to hear his views about these cases but we cannot refer to anything _ these cases but we cannot refer to anything in — these cases but we cannot refer to anything in relation to past convictions, any challenge must go via normal— convictions, any challenge must go via normal legal roots. is that the way your— via normal legal roots. is that the way your mind worked at this time, the priority— way your mind worked at this time, the priority was to manage the media and then— the priority was to manage the media and then deal with the actual substance of the issue? the media issue related _ substance of the issue? the media issue related to, _ substance of the issue? the media

issue related to, i— substance of the issue? the media issue related to, i believe, - substance of the issue? the media | issue related to, i believe, because we were right on the day on the day before, the release of the second site interim report. that is my recollection that that is the media conversation that we were having. what we are talking about here is how far _ what we are talking about here is how far back review of possible miscarriages ofjustice should go. yes. _ miscarriages ofjustice should go. yes. and — miscarriages ofjustice should go. yes. and i— miscarriages ofjustice should go. yes, and i am not... you miscarriages ofjustice should go. yes, and i am not...— miscarriages ofjustice should go. yes, and i am not... you say that is the most — yes, and i am not... you say that is the most urgent, _ yes, and i am not... you say that is the most urgent, the _ yes, and i am not... you say that is the most urgent, the second - yes, and i am not... you say that is the most urgent, the second being | yes, and i am not... you say that is i the most urgent, the second being to manage _ the most urgent, the second being to manage the media. | the most urgent, the second being to manage the media. i am the most urgent, the second being to manage the media.— manage the media. i am pretty sure that was in relation _ manage the media. i am pretty sure that was in relation to _ manage the media. i am pretty sure that was in relation to the _ manage the media. i am pretty sure that was in relation to the interim i that was in relation to the interim report which was you out any time, which, as the inquiry has seen, and herfrom other people, there which, as the inquiry has seen, and her from other people, there were issues in that report which the post office disagreed with the felt second sight hadn't taken account of. that, ithink, was second sight hadn't taken account of. that, i think, was the issue we were talking about. this was a really urgent, today or tomorrow,

issue. then there was the concerns