whatever way, this election is for you, because you now have the power, the chance, to end the chaos, to turn the page and to rebuild britain. and we've had 14 years of going round and round in circles, getting absolutely nowhere. chaos and division. feeding chaos and division. and that has a cost, a human cost. in milton keynes, i met will, who's a fireman, and he has a simple dream, not an unreasonable dream. he wants to own his own home. he's got two extra jobs on top of being a fireman, but he still can't afford it because the chaos and division of this government has robbed him of that dream. that is the price that he is paying.

labour leader keir starmer speaking in kent. we expect to hear a lot of personal stories like that as the leaders get out and about around the country meeting people and learning about their priorities, what they want the politicians to deliver in this general election. as we have said the prime minister there at the vale of glamorgan craft brewery in south wales. these are the moments when they will speak with business leaders, with voters, with the electorate, and hear about their priorities. one would assume a visit to a hospital and otherfacilities in the coming weeks. with me as alessia fitzgerald. let's look at what moments like this are for. this is about the leaders being seen in all the right places. it is a photo opportunity. but it is a chance for them to hear from voters about what

they need to deliver. fin them to hear from voters about what they need to deliver.— they need to deliver. on the first thin , they need to deliver. on the first thing. when _ they need to deliver. on the first thing. when it— they need to deliver. on the first thing, when it comes _ they need to deliver. on the first thing, when it comes to - they need to deliver. on the first thing, when it comes to optics, l they need to deliver. on the first| thing, when it comes to optics, it is important for the latest to show they can do relatable human things. a massive criticism from politicians. and rishi sunak is often cited for being out of touch, but not understanding the electorate. he wants to prove that he can get down in there and speak to normal people and that he understands them and to prove that he is relatable. i think this will be a harder task for him than keir starmer. keir starmer earlier this morning was on a football pitch. we often hear that he very much as a big football fan and he wants to try to show the electorate that he is just a normal guy, he is the labour party leader that understands working people. but for rishi sunak this is far more of a challenge. he is worth billions of pounds. his wife is worth millions of pounds and when he has tried to seem relatable, we remember when he was putting petrol in his car and didn't really know how to do it and everyone very muchjumped on that know how to do it and everyone very much jumped on that and said know how to do it and everyone very muchjumped on that and said it know how to do it and everyone very much jumped on that and said it was embarrassing. he has got quite a hill to climb and trying to prove to the electorate that he is not out of

touch. , . . , touch. there is a danger with events like this that — touch. there is a danger with events like this that it — touch. there is a danger with events like this that it might _ touch. there is a danger with events like this that it might look _ touch. there is a danger with events like this that it might look great - like this that it might look great when it all goes right but there is a potentialfor when it all goes right but there is a potential for it to go very wrong if they do, as you say, look a little out of touch or a little awkward in these sorts of settings. absolutely. i'm sure rishi sunak will have had his top team of strategists and election nears in number ten very much guiding him on how to do this and how to make it look natural. he has had a year or so of practice in order to try to master these things. i think pretty much he has not got a massive excuse now if he gets it wrong. he has been caught out in the past but it is quite hard for him to come across as a human. i

think it does sometimes come across as a bit robotic and that is something a lot of the public find quite difficult. they want someone who seems like a charismatic person. i think for a while that is why a lot of people supported boris johnson because he had that charisma. he is someone with a lot of wealth, comparatively, to a lot of wealth, comparatively, to a lot of people in the country, but a lot of people in the country, but a lot of people in the country, but a lot of people felt something chimed with him and a lot of people struggle with that with rishi sunak. to think these sorts of— with that with rishi sunak. to think these sorts of events _ with that with rishi sunak. to think these sorts of events still - with that with rishi sunak. to think these sorts of events still work, - with that with rishi sunak. to think these sorts of events still work, to | these sorts of events still work, to these sorts of events still work, to the public see these visits these photo ops, is a cynical ploy to do that, to make you look more in touch and human, when it is an event that has been organised. it is very well scripted, they know where they are going in advance. to think the public appreciate moments like that? i think this election we are seeing something quite different in that there is a higher volume of general apathy towards politics and an increased level of cynicism amongst the british public about all types of politics, whether that is the optics or the legislation that gets passed. i think a lot of people look at these things and just say, come on, we don't need all of these big charades, wejust want on, we don't need all of these big charades, we just want to know you will get the job charades, we just want to know you will get thejob done charades, we just want to know you will get the job done and that you are a decent and honest person. i think, whilst in some part this might aid think, whilst in some part this mightaid keir think, whilst in some part this might aid keir starmer, think, whilst in some part this mightaid keir starmer, it

think, whilst in some part this might aid keir starmer, it could hinder rishi sunak because this is not something he is natural at. we will follow all of the leaders as they crisscross the country on events like this. it appears the prime minister sat down with a few people at the brewery there in south wales. let's see whether we could hear what he is talking about. find hear what he is talking about. and particularly _ hear what he is talking about. and particularly young people getting their firstjobs this is particularly young people getting their first jobs this is why wooded things— their first jobs this is why wooded things in— their first jobs this is why wooded things in the pandemic to try to get the industry going and we have been carrying _ the industry going and we have been carrying that on. in england we have made _ carrying that on. in england we have made shall— carrying that on. in england we have made shall we cut business rates for pubs, _ made shall we cut business rates for pubs, restaurants and cafe is and i am sorry— pubs, restaurants and cafe is and i am sorry the — pubs, restaurants and cafe is and i am sorry the welsh government have a pass that _ am sorry the welsh government have a pass that onto you. we will keep making _ pass that onto you. we will keep making the point and we were chatting — making the point and we were chatting next door about discounting beer duty _ chatting next door about discounting beer duty in pubs which we were able to do post—brexit. i did that as chahcellor_ to do post—brexit. i did that as chancellor and so we are trying to support— chancellor and so we are trying to suriport our— chancellor and so we are trying to support our pubs and great beer. we know_ support our pubs and great beer. we know what _ support our pubs and great beer. we know what you do is brilliant because _ know what you do is brilliant because green the sector expands quickly _ because green the sector expands quickly it— because green the sector expands quickly. it immediately employs

people — quickly. it immediately employs people. that is the thing. running a small— people. that is the thing. running a small business is an incredible thing — small business is an incredible thing so — small business is an incredible thing so thank you very much. it is not easy — thing so thank you very much. it is not easy i— thing so thank you very much. it is not easy. i grew up in a small business _ not easy. i grew up in a small business. you are providing jobs and employment and opportunities for people _ employment and opportunities for people and that is an incredible thing _ people and that is an incredible thing it— people and that is an incredible thing. it will grow our economy we want _ thing. it will grow our economy we want to— thing. it will grow our economy we want to make sure we back it with lower_ want to make sure we back it with lower taxes. want to make sure we back it with lower taxes-— want to make sure we back it with lower taxes. the biggest challenge is robabl lower taxes. the biggest challenge is probably skills _ lower taxes. the biggest challenge is probably skills and _ lower taxes. the biggest challenge is probably skills and staff. - lower taxes. the biggest challenge is probably skills and staff. we - is probably skills and staff. we need _ is probably skills and staff. we need to— is probably skills and staff. we need to keep _ is probably skills and staff. we need to keep the _ is probably skills and staff. we need to keep the people - is probably skills and staff. we need to keep the people in- is probably skills and staff. we need to keep the people in our hospitality— need to keep the people in our hospitality industry. _ need to keep the people in our hospitality industry. one - need to keep the people in our hospitality industry. one of- need to keep the people in our| hospitality industry. one of the worst _ hospitality industry. one of the worst complaints _ hospitality industry. one of the worst complaints is _ hospitality industry. one of the worst complaints is trying - hospitality industry. one of the worst complaints is trying to i hospitality industry. one of the i worst complaints is trying to find people _ worst complaints is trying to find people that _ worst complaints is trying to find people that are _ worst complaints is trying to find people that are inspired, - worst complaints is trying to find people that are inspired, that. worst complaints is trying to find . people that are inspired, that want to fill— people that are inspired, that want to fill those — people that are inspired, that want to fill those jobs. _ people that are inspired, that want to fill those jobs. it _ people that are inspired, that want to fill those jobs. it has _ people that are inspired, that want to fill those jobs. it has not - to fill those jobs. it has not become _ to fill those jobs. it has not become fashionable. - to fill those jobs. it has not become fashionable. would it start workint become fashionable. would it start working with _ become fashionable. would it start working with the _ become fashionable. would it start working with the dwp. _ become fashionable. would it start working with the dwp. 8596 - become fashionable. would it start working with the dwp. 8596 stayed | become fashionable. would it start l working with the dwp. 8596 stayed in working with the dwp. 85% stayed in the sector _ working with the dwp. 85% stayed in the sector. that is great, that is good _ the sector. that is great, that is good news _ the sector. that is great, that is good news. one of the things across the economy we have almost1 million 'ob the economy we have almost1 million job vacancies and that's why focus on reforming our welfare system.

since _ on reforming our welfare system. since the — on reforming our welfare system. since the pandemic you have probably read and _ since the pandemic you have probably read and seen that we have a lot of people _ read and seen that we have a lot of people who — read and seen that we have a lot of people who are working age that, for one reason— people who are working age that, for one reason or another, largely nrental— one reason or another, largely mental health driven, are unable to work _ mental health driven, are unable to work. ~ , . work. the prime minister there at the brewery _ work. the prime minister there at the brewery in _ work. the prime minister there at the brewery in south _ work. the prime minister there at the brewery in south wales. - work. the prime minister there at the brewery in south wales. it - the brewery in south wales. it appears a friendly audience discussing some of the changes that he made as chancellor. this is really echoing those comments are made earlier about talking to his experience when he was chancellor and the work that he was able to do whilst at number 11. of course part of his pitch to remain number ten. we are going to leave events there in south wales as the prime minister continues his visit there. that the story we are following right now, you can see on screen, is the second day of testimony from the former boss of the post office. a harrowing day for paula vennells who broke

down a number of times while giving evidence about what she knew and didn't know in her time as the boss of the post office, related to that faulty it software, the horizon system. our correspondent azadeh moshiri is outside the inquiry for us. run us through what we have learned so far on the second day of testimony from paula vennells. paula vennells was — testimony from paula vennells. paula vennells was chief _ testimony from paula vennells. paula vennells was chief executive - testimony from paula vennells. pm: vennells was chief executive from 2012 to 2019. that is the latter part of the scandal when former sub—postmasters alleged there was a cover—up, something the post office has denied. the inquiry counsel has been as forensic as always and is focusing on that alleged cover—up, particularly on 2013 when the forensic investigator second sight was preparing their interim report. what we saw today was an e—mail from mark davis. he was the chief of the

post office pr and he led this aggressive media campaign. in the e—mail he advised paula vennells that, if in response they were to review past prosecutions, it would, in his words, make front page news. he also added that in media terms it becomes mainstream, very high profile, to which paula vennells responded, you are right to call this out. i will take your spear. here are some of that exchange. our current approach would mean there is going to be some coverage but not very much — the usual suspects. if we say we will look back at past cases we will be on the front page. isn't he directly saying...? i can see that's what he is saying but my mindset at the time, when i received this, is that we were working on specific cases that were coming forwards and we opened up... no, no, no. hold on, ms vennells.

the e—mail that you had sent, to which this is a response, posits, shall we look back 12—18 months in separation or should we go back further. yes. why aren't we going back further, five to ten years? and this says, you can't do that, you will be on the front page. that is a grossly improper perspective, isn't it? yes it is. paula vennells has denied that it was her role to make that decision about reviewing past criminal cases. she said she wasn't qualified to do so and she also says that never would she make a decision like that based on media outcomes. of course, thatis based on media outcomes. of course, that is for the inquiry chattered aside, given evidence that has been presented today.— presented today. good to talk to ou, presented today. good to talk to you. thank _ presented today. good to talk to you. thank you- _ presented today. good to talk to you, thank you. following - presented today. good to talk to | you, thank you. following events presented today. good to talk to - you, thank you. following events for us at the post office inquiry. that continuing right now. we can take

you there live to dip into a little more of what is happening as paula vennells continues to give evidence. you can see them working through some of the documents, a lot of this related to who knew what and when and where the blame may lie when it comes to the events that transpired, causing so many problems for so many families of sub—postmasters. let's listen in some more of that evidence. and the board were also feeling bruised — and the board were also feeling bruised. stopping there. by this time _ bruised. stopping there. by this time was — bruised. stopping there. by this time was that the case that the board _ time was that the case that the board was— time was that the case that the board was feeling bruised? this was the 10th _ board was feeling bruised? this was the 10th of— board was feeling bruised? this was the 10th ofjuly. board was feeling bruised? this was the 10th ofjuly— the 10th ofjuly. these are simon's words. i don't... _ the 10th ofjuly. these are simon's words. i don't... i— the 10th ofjuly. these are simon's words. idon't... icertainly- the 10th ofjuly. these are simon's words. i don't... i certainly don't i words. i don't... i certainly don't recall... he is reflecting a conversation he has had with two colleagues at the post office. yes. i... it is colleagues at the post office. yes. i--- it is not— colleagues at the post office. yes. i... it is not an— colleagues at the post office. yes. i. .. it is not an adjective _ colleagues at the post office. yes. i. .. it is not an adjective i - colleagues at the post office. yes. i... it is not an adjective i would have used in respect of the board. the board were feeling very

frustrated.— the board were feeling very frustrated. , ., ., ., frustrated. frustrated about what? that the second _ frustrated. frustrated about what? that the second sight _ frustrated. frustrated about what? that the second sight interim - frustrated. frustrated about what? l that the second sight interim report had not... according to colleagues had not... according to colleagues had not... according to colleagues had not taken account of the post office's factual evidence against issues that were raised from criticisms made of the post office and secondly that it had taken too long and was continuing to run up budgets to levels that had not been expected. d0 budgets to levels that had not been exected. ,, ~ ., budgets to levels that had not been exected. i. ~ ., , ., expected. do you think that is what this mitht expected. do you think that is what this might be _ expected. do you think that is what this might be a _ expected. do you think that is what this might be a reference _ expected. do you think that is what this might be a reference to, - expected. do you think that is what this might be a reference to, they i this might be a reference to, they are feeling — this might be a reference to, they are feeling bruised? | this might be a reference to, they are feeling bruised?— are feeling bruised? i can't think what else it _ are feeling bruised? i can't think what else it would _ are feeling bruised? i can't think what else it would be _ are feeling bruised? i can't think what else it would be reference l are feeling bruised? i can't think i what else it would be reference to. the board were very frustrated by the criticisms in the second sight interim report which at that stage, they were told, well, at least in some cases were unfounded because

second sight hadn't had sufficient time in preparing it to take on board the post office's evidence. the note continues seemingly on the basis of— the note continues seemingly on the basis of what your two colleagues, susan _ basis of what your two colleagues, susan crichton and hugh flemington said, susan crichton and hugh flemington said. there _ susan crichton and hugh flemington said, there are tensions between people _ said, there are tensions between people and that includes alice perkins, — people and that includes alice perkins, the chair, paula vennells and susan — perkins, the chair, paula vennells and susan crichton. at this time with— and susan crichton. at this time with their— and susan crichton. at this time with their tensions between alice perkins, — with their tensions between alice perkins, you and susan crichton? there _ perkins, you and susan crichton? there had — perkins, you and susan crichton? there had been some difficult conversations. i can't remember exactly... alice... we were all frustrated by the report. alice felt frustrated by the report. alice felt frustrated by the report. alice felt frustrated by it. she could not

understand, and again, there is documentation on this, as to why we had ended up, why the business had ended up in the position it had. with a report that hadn't taken account of post office's input and conclusions seemingly reached, or suggested, to be fair to second sight this and it was an interim report. i had been challenged over that. there was going to be more challenged to come a couple of days after this in a board meeting. i don't know what. .. after this in a board meeting. i don't know what... at after this in a board meeting. i don't know what. .. at this after this in a board meeting. i don't know what... at this stage i don't know what... at this stage i don't know what conversations had been taken place between alice and susan. certainly susan and i had discussed about how we were going to... we had had conversations about the first draft of this second sight report which i think she went back to talk to them about and some changes were made but nothing

substantive. it was a difficult time. ~ , ., , , time. whether tensions between you and alice perkins? _ time. whether tensions between you and alice perkins? don't _ time. whether tensions between you and alice perkins? don't recall - time. whether tensions between you and alice perkins? don't recall she . and alice perkins? don't recall she had been critical. _ and alice perkins? don't recall she had been critical. alice _ and alice perkins? don't recall she had been critical. alice was - and alice perkins? don't recall she had been critical. alice was a - and alice perkins? don't recall she had been critical. alice was a very| had been critical. alice was a very straightforward chair. and i generally took feedback pretty well. forgive me for repeating the phrase but there is documentation on that as well. i am sure she gave me straightforward feedback about why this had taken so long, white was over budget, why the report contain things the post office felt were inaccurate. it things the post office felt were inaccurate-— things the post office felt were inaccurate. it continues, simon richardson. — inaccurate. it continues, simon richardson, i— inaccurate. it continues, simon richardson, i thought - inaccurate. it continues, simon richardson, i thought the - inaccurate. it continues, simon i richardson, i thought the minister had dealt — richardson, i thought the minister had dealt with the question is extremely well and looked in control of the _ extremely well and looked in control of the brief. evidently she had the post office in to tear them off a

strip— post office in to tear them off a strip for— post office in to tear them off a strip for not putting someone up earlier— strip for not putting someone up earlier in— strip for not putting someone up earlier in the day for interviews on radio— earlier in the day for interviews on radio and — earlier in the day for interviews on radio and tv. i said, in my view it was _ radio and tv. i said, in my view it wasa— radio and tv. i said, in my view it was a good — radio and tv. i said, in my view it was a good thing that no one was there _ was a good thing that no one was there it — was a good thing that no one was there. it was a no win, given the nature _ there. it was a no win, given the nature of— there. it was a no win, given the nature of the complaints and some sub—postmasters, who were reporting wild stories _ sub—postmasters, who were reporting wild stories about what had gone on. however— wild stories about what had gone on. however i_ wild stories about what had gone on. however i understood the political imperative of somebody being put up. susan _ imperative of somebody being put up. susan crichton said she would pass my comments on the comms director. however— my comments on the comms director. however i_ my comments on the comms director. however i told them my view is they needed _ however i told them my view is they needed to— however i told them my view is they needed to much more on the offensive about— needed to much more on the offensive about this _ needed to much more on the offensive about this. this was a new management team who had put in place a new— management team who had put in place a new independent report and were dealing _ a new independent report and were dealing with the problems. the chair. _ dealing with the problems. the chair, alice perkins, seems to have been _ chair, alice perkins, seems to have been taken — chair, alice perkins, seems to have been taken by surprise by the reaction — been taken by surprise by the reaction and the noise generated. paula _ reaction and the noise generated. paula vennells may be sensitive around — paula vennells may be sensitive around some of these issues happening on her watch as the network— happening on her watch as the network director. i said i still thought— network director. i said i still thought they were positive messages to deliver— thought they were positive messages to deliver and people just need to -et to deliver and people just need to get into— to deliver and people just need to get into a — to deliver and people just need to get into a different mindset. she said that —

get into a different mindset. she said that paula vennells had asked about— said that paula vennells had asked about what i knew and she might pass on my— about what i knew and she might pass on my comments to her. i said i was happy— on my comments to her. i said i was happy to— on my comments to her. i said i was happy to talk— on my comments to her. i said i was happy to talk to paula vennells since _ happy to talk to paula vennells since we — happy to talk to paula vennells since we knew each other from another, — since we knew each other from another, difficult project, in the days— another, difficult project, in the days when— another, difficult project, in the days when they were a subsidiary of the royal— days when they were a subsidiary of the royal mail group. in your approach _ the royal mail group. in your approach to the reaction to this second — approach to the reaction to this second sight report, where you sensitive — second sight report, where you sensitive that some of the issues addressed happened on your watch as network— addressed happened on your watch as network director? no, addressed happened on your watch as network director?— addressed happened on your watch as network director?_ the . network director? no, iwasn't. the note sa s network director? no, iwasn't. the note says that _ network director? no, i wasn't. the note says that the _ network director? no, iwasn't. the note says that the real _ network director? no, iwasn't. the note says that the real issue - network director? no, iwasn't. the note says that the real issue here, | note says that the real issue here, the real— note says that the real issue here, the real worry, was around the fujitsu — the real worry, was around the fujitsu expert who appeared to have known _ fujitsu expert who appeared to have known some of the problems are not referred _ known some of the problems are not referred to _ known some of the problems are not referred to them in his report or statement _ referred to them in his report or statement. there are nondisclosure issues _ statement. there are nondisclosure issues here — statement. there are nondisclosure issues here. was the result of this

meeting _ issues here. was the result of this meeting fed back to you? | issues here. was the result of this meeting fed back to you?- meeting fed back to you? i don't believe so- _ meeting fed back to you? i don't believe so. would _ meeting fed back to you? i don't believe so. would you _ meeting fed back to you? i don't believe so. would you be - meeting fed back to you? i don't i believe so. would you be surprised that members _ believe so. would you be surprised that members of— believe so. would you be surprised that members of your _ believe so. would you be surprised that members of your team - believe so. would you be surprised that members of your team were l that members of your team were having _ that members of your team were having this — that members of your team were having this in—depth and frank conversation about gareth jenkins being _ conversation about gareth jenkins being the — conversation about gareth jenkins being the real worry that was facing the post— being the real worry that was facing the post office after the interim report _ the post office after the interim report and yet this information not being _ report and yet this information not being fed — report and yet this information not being fed back to you, nor indeed to the boards? — being fed back to you, nor indeed to the boards? yes being fed back to you, nor indeed to the boards?— being fed back to you, nor indeed to the boards? , ., , , , , the boards? yes i would be surprised at that. the boards? yes i would be surprised at that- how — the boards? yes i would be surprised at that. how has _ the boards? yes i would be surprised at that. how has it _ the boards? yes i would be surprised at that. how has it come _ the boards? yes i would be surprised at that. how has it come about - the boards? yes i would be surprised at that. how has it come about that l at that. how has it come about that the are at that. how has it come about that they are having _ at that. how has it come about that they are having this _ at that. how has it come about that they are having this frank _ they are having this frank conversation with somebody with whom you have _ conversation with somebody with whom you have a _ conversation with somebody with whom you have a history, as is referred to here, — you have a history, as is referred to here, simon richardson, and you never— to here, simon richardson, and you never get _ to here, simon richardson, and you never get to— to here, simon richardson, and you never get to know about it? my histo never get to know about it? history with never get to know about it? ij�*i history with simon never get to know about it? m1 history with simon richardson was one case that we sat on a royal mail group when we were on an appeal panel. we were working with him a long time ago on post office claimants but i hardly met with simon. it claimants but i hardly met with simon. . claimants but i hardly met with simon. , . ., .,

claimants but i hardly met with simon. , ., , simon. it is recorded here that she said that paula _ simon. it is recorded here that she said that paula vennells _ simon. it is recorded here that she said that paula vennells had - simon. it is recorded here that she said that paula vennells had asked about— said that paula vennells had asked about what i, that is simon richardson, new. do you know what that is— richardson, new. do you know what that is a _ richardson, new. do you know what that is a reference to? | richardson, new. do you know what that is a reference to?— that is a reference to? i don't. if ou that is a reference to? i don't. if you would _ that is a reference to? i don't. if you would like _ that is a reference to? i don't. if you would like to _ that is a reference to? i don't. if you would like to take _ that is a reference to? i don't. if you would like to take the - that is a reference to? i don't. if you would like to take the back. that is a reference to? i don't. if. you would like to take the back of the e—mail in case there is something there that prompts it. let's go back up. it something there that prompts it. let's go back up.— something there that prompts it. let's go back up. it may simply be that i was asking _ let's go back up. it may simply be that i was asking for— let's go back up. it may simply be that i was asking for what - let's go back up. it may simply be that i was asking for what simon'sj that i was asking for what simon's view was on the work that was under way because he was the partner for the post office, or had been a partner for the post office. again, askint the partner for the post office. again, asking the general _ partner for the post office. again, asking the general question, - partner for the post office. again, asking the general question, how| partner for the post office. again, i asking the general question, how is it that _ asking the general question, how is it that two — asking the general question, how is it that two relatively senior members of yourteam, it that two relatively senior members of your team, susan crichton, — members of your team, susan crichton, the general counsel, no less, _ crichton, the general counsel, no less. were — crichton, the general counsel, no less, were having this frank conversation with a solicitor on the outcome _ conversation with a solicitor on the outcome of — conversation with a solicitor on the outcome of it never reached you or the board, — outcome of it never reached you or the board, if— outcome of it never reached you or the board, if your evidence is correct? _

to be honest i don't know. whether susan... as you have heard previously it was not a process in the post office, which was wrong, for advice, the post office, which was wrong, foradvice, if the post office, which was wrong, for advice, if this is considered advice, which in a sense it is, to be fed back. the reason i was looking down the list of numbered points is in case any of it was fed back and some wasn't. i5 points is in case any of it was fed back and some wasn't. is it everyday ofthe back and some wasn't. is it everyday of the week — back and some wasn't. is it everyday of the week though, _ back and some wasn't. is it everyday of the week though, the _ back and some wasn't. is it everyday of the week though, the post - back and some wasn't. is it everyday of the week though, the post office, | of the week though, the post office, that it _ of the week though, the post office, that it is _ of the week though, the post office, that it is told that the safety of its convictions, it's criminal convictions may be called into question— convictions may be called into question by unreliable evidence given— question by unreliable evidence given by— question by unreliable evidence given by an expert. no, question by unreliable evidence given by an expert.— question by unreliable evidence given by an expert. no, i agree. it should have _ given by an expert. no, i agree. it should have been _ given by an expert. no, i agree. it should have been shared. - given by an expert. no, i agree. it should have been shared. you - given by an expert. no, i agree. it should have been shared. you are | should have been shared. you are ex-tlainin should have been shared. you are explaining perhaps _ should have been shared. you are

explaining perhaps white - should have been shared. you are explaining perhaps white wasn't l explaining perhaps white wasn't shared _ explaining perhaps white wasn't shared because the convention of not giving _ shared because the convention of not giving councils advice or solicitors advice. _ giving councils advice or solicitors advice, documents. it doesn't prevent— advice, documents. it doesn't prevent any of the substance being conveyed, — prevent any of the substance being conveyed, does it? no. so what is at work conveyed, does it? so what is at work here, in conveyed, does it? fin. so what is at work here, in your view? why is this information— work here, in your view? why is this information not coming back up to you _ information not coming back up to you simon — information not coming back up to you. simon king is advising on the one hand. — you. simon king is advising on the one hand, dickinson advising on the one hand, dickinson advising on the one hand _ one hand, dickinson advising on the one hand that the real worry is gareth— one hand that the real worry is garethjenkins on the one hand that the real worry is gareth jenkins on the other. my my hesitation on this is now that i know much more than i did at the time. i am know much more than i did at the time. lam now know much more than i did at the time. i am now aware that mrjenkins had never been briefed as an expert witness. i don't know whether this is suggesting that that was part of the real worry or whether the the

worry that is expressed at .6 is what the organisation you already, which was nondisclosure issues, because the cartwright king review had started by this stage. i am afraid i can't help you why more of that wasn't shared.— afraid i can't help you why more of that wasn't shared. thank you. if we move on. that wasn't shared. thank you. if we move on- the _ that wasn't shared. thank you. if we move on. the second _ that wasn't shared. thank you. if we move on. the second sight - that wasn't shared. thank you. if we move on. the second sight interiml move on. the second sight interim report— move on. the second sight interim report was— move on. the second sight interim report was published on the 8th of july. report was published on the 8th of july the _ report was published on the 8th of july. the reference, we needn't show it at the _ july. the reference, we needn't show it at the moment referred to three bugs _ it at the moment referred to three bugs in _ it at the moment referred to three bugs in horizon. the receipts and payments— bugs in horizon. the receipts and payments mismatch bug, the suspense account _ payments mismatch bug, the suspense account book and, although it didn't name _ account book and, although it didn't name it. _ account book and, although it didn't name it. the — account book and, although it didn't name it, the calendar bug. if we 'ust name it, the calendar bug. if we just look— name it, the calendar bug. if we just look at— name it, the calendar bug. if we just look at your witness statement please, _ just look at your witness statement please, paragraph children 53 f on pa-e please, paragraph children 53 f on page iii~ _

page 111 please. if we scroll down to r, _ page 111 please. if we scroll down to f, please. you say, i was not made — to f, please. you say, i was not made aware, — to f, please. you say, i was not made aware, betweenjoining the post office in— made aware, betweenjoining the post office in 2007, and early 2012, that any bugs, _ office in 2007, and early 2012, that any bugs, errors or defects had been identified _ any bugs, errors or defects had been identified in— any bugs, errors or defects had been identified in legacy horizon or horizon — identified in legacy horizon or horizon online. then you say, the first i_ horizon online. then you say, the first i knew — horizon online. then you say, the first i knew of any bugs, errors or defects— first i knew of any bugs, errors or defects was— first i knew of any bugs, errors or defects was in mid—2013. i was made aware _ defects was in mid—2013. i was made aware for— defects was in mid—2013. i was made aware for the first time that the ijul aware for the first time that the bug known as the calendar square problem _ bug known as the calendar square problem in — bug known as the calendar square problem in legacy horizon and to bugs _ problem in legacy horizon and to bugs in _ problem in legacy horizon and to bugs in horizon online receipts and payments— bugs in horizon online receipts and payments mismatch and local suspense

account _ payments mismatch and local suspense account problem. can i ask for your assistance — account problem. can i ask for your assistance and what your evidence means _ assistance and what your evidence means here? estate in the first sentence — means here? estate in the first sentence that you were not aware until early— sentence that you were not aware until early 2012 that any bugs had been _ until early 2012 that any bugs had been identified in either system. in the second — been identified in either system. in the second sentence you say, the first that — the second sentence you say, the first that i — the second sentence you say, the first that i knew that any bugs had been _ first that i knew that any bugs had been discovered was in mid—2013. they— been discovered was in mid—2013. they appear contradictory. they been discovered was in mid-2013. they appear contradictory. they do, i am so they appear contradictory. they do, i am so sorry- _ they appear contradictory. they do, i am so sorry- so — they appear contradictory. they do, i am so sorry. so what _ they appear contradictory. they do, i am so sorry. so what is _ they appear contradictory. they do, i am so sorry. so what is the - i am so sorry. so what is the correct answer? _ i am so sorry. so what is the correct answer? when - i am so sorry. so what is the correct answer? when did i i am so sorry. so what is the l correct answer? when did you i am so sorry. so what is the - correct answer? when did you first know _ correct answer? when did you first know. :: correct answer? when did you first know-- why _ correct answer? when did you first know-- why did _ correct answer? when did you first know. 2013. why did you say here that it was — know. 2013. why did you say here that it was early _ know. 2013. why did you say here that it was early 2012 _ know. 421 why did you say here that it was early 2012 that you were made _ that it was early 2012 that you were made aware that bugs, errors and defects— made aware that bugs, errors and defects had been identified in horizon? | defects had been identified in horizon? ., �* ~ .,

defects had been identified in horizon? ~ ., , , horizon? i don't know because the onl thin horizon? i don't know because the only thing i — horizon? i don't know because the only thing i can — horizon? i don't know because the only thing i can think— horizon? i don't know because the only thing i can think is _ horizon? i don't know because the only thing i can think is an - only thing i can think is an explanation is that the local suspense bug was, i think, drawn to the post office's attention in 2012 but nobody knew about that because it had been referred to the nbs c and i suspect this is just a mistake. and i suspect this is 'ust a mistakefi and i suspect this is 'ust a mistake. . . , mistake. so the correct evidence is that represented _ mistake. so the correct evidence is that represented in _ mistake. so the correct evidence is that represented in the _ mistake. so the correct evidence is that represented in the second - that represented in the second sentence. . that represented in the second sentence.- is _ that represented in the second sentence.- is that - that represented in the second sentence. yes. is that right? element _ sentence. yes. is that right? element yes. _ sentence. yes. is that right? element yes. in _ sentence. yes. is that right? element yes. in the - sentence. yes. is that right? element yes. in the first - sentence. yes. is that right? element yes. in the first is i sentence. iezs is that right? element yes. in the first isjust sentence. iezs is that right? element yes. in the first is just a mistake? — element yes. in the first is 'ust a mistake? . element yes. in the first is 'ust a mistake?- can i element yes. in the first is 'ust a mistake?- can we h element yes. in the first is just a mistake? yes. can we turn to what was said in — mistake? yes. can we turn to what was said in the _ mistake? iezs can we turn to what was said in the run—up to the second sight _ was said in the run—up to the second sight report— was said in the run—up to the second sight report about the post office's position— sight report about the post office's position on the three books.

can you see this as an e—mail to you and others _ can you see this as an e—mail to you and others about the james brief and she says. _ and others about the james brief and she says, the only thing that is not in the _ she says, the only thing that is not in the brief— she says, the only thing that is not in the brief forjames is our move away— in the brief forjames is our move away from. — in the brief forjames is our move away from, quote, there are no bugs in horizon. _ away from, quote, there are no bugs in horizon, too there are known bugs in horizon, too there are known bugs in every— in horizon, too there are known bugs in every computer system the size but they— in every computer system the size but they are found and put right and no sub—postmaster is disadvantaged by them _ no sub—postmaster is disadvantaged by them it— no sub—postmaster is disadvantaged by them. it would be good to go on and say, _ by them. it would be good to go on and say, or— by them. it would be good to go on and say, or has been wrongfully suspended or prosecuted. did this represent — suspended or prosecuted. did this represent a move, a shift in

position. _ represent a move, a shift in position, pre—emptively, before the second— position, pre—emptively, before the second sight report from, there are no bugs _ second sight report from, there are no bugs in _ second sight report from, there are no bugs in her bryson, to the then altered _ no bugs in her bryson, to the then altered position that set out by 0lwen — altered position that set out by 0lwen lyons. altered position that set out by 0lwen lyons-— altered position that set out by olwen l ons. , , ., �* olwen lyons. firstly i don't recall, and i olwen lyons. firstly i don't recall, and i think— olwen lyons. firstly i don't recall, and i think she _ olwen lyons. firstly i don't recall, and i think she said _ olwen lyons. firstly i don't recall, and i think she said this _ olwen lyons. firstly i don't recall, and i think she said this on - olwen lyons. firstly i don't recall, l and i think she said this on tuesday as well, that there had been a line, as well, that there had been a line, as it were, that there were no bugs in horizon. i don't remember and i haven't seen it anywhere is being used. but it would be completely right for the post office, if that was a line it had used, to correct it. it was a line it had used, to correct it. ., �* ., , ., it. it wouldn't have been done pre-emptively. .. _ it. it wouldn't have been done pre-emptively. .. we - it. it wouldn't have been done pre-emptively. .. we are - it. it wouldn't have been done| pre-emptively. .. we are going it. it wouldn't have been done . pre-emptively. .. we are going to ste awa pre-emptively. .. we are going to step away from — pre-emptively. .. we are going to step away from the _ pre-emptively. .. we are going to step away from the post - pre-emptively. .. we are going to step away from the post office i step away from the post office inquiry. paula vennells on day two of that evidence. this is all related to whether she tried to

close down a review into that faulty horizon software she said it was because it was too expensive and not meeting its objective, rather than any ulterior motive. but particularly focused today on day two of the inquiry into whether that investigation into the software and the review of the software that led to the wrongful convictions of those sub—postmasters. it is worth saying at this stage, you can continue watching that inquiry. it is going on all day. you can do so on the bbc news website and it has got the full details and continued coverage of the inquiry in central london. that is day two of that. we are here in downing street for day one of what will be a six—week campaign. six weeks today the uk will go to the polls for the general election on the 4th polls for the general election on the ltth ofjuly. we will have continued coverage with our

correspondence right around the country as the leaders of the major parties begin their election campaign. they are crisscrossing the country. full coverage for you here on bbc news throughout the afternoon. letsjoin ben brown. he has the bbc news that one. we will see you soon. after the prime minister fired the starting gun for a snap summer election in six weeks' time so far, rishi sunak and labour leader sir keir starmer have been touring the country, with their message for voters. even though there's more work to do and i know it will take time for you to all see the benefits of that, the plan is working and we have that economic stability back. this election is for you, because you now have the power, the chance to end the chaos, to turn the page and to rebuild britain.

and also this lunchtime... the former post office chief executive, paula vennells, gives a second day of evidence at the horizon it inquiry. the ten—year—old girl killed in a mudslide in north yorkshire is named as leah harrison. and are vets charging us too much to treat our pets? an investigation is launched to find out. and coming up on bbc news... west ham united have a new boss. they announce thatjulen lopetegui willjoin the club on a two—year contract. good afternoon. party leaders have hit the campaign trail — with six weeks to go till the general election. the prime minister rishi sunak said only the conservatives offer

security and economic stability, while the labour leader