expect there to be a lot of interaction or would you expect those leaders perhaps to keep a step back? we those leaders perhaps to keep a step back? ~ a, a, a, , , those leaders perhaps to keep a step back? a, a, a, , , a, ,, back? we have already seen today sir keir starmer — back? we have already seen today sir keir starmer as _ back? we have already seen today sir keir starmer as a _ back? we have already seen today sir keir starmer as a football _ back? we have already seen today sir keir starmer as a football pitch - keir starmer as a football pitch drumming and how much he loves football and how much she can relate and bond with the electorate about that. and then rishi sunak at the brewery speaking to local area about issues that matter most to them. you can expect to see both of those two main leaders notjust of the main parties but also of the lib dems and the scottish national party amongst all the other smaller parties all fighting for the single, trying to bond with the electorate. this is a chance to go to the places they don't often visit and to leave westminster and gone find out what the problems are on the ground and prove to the electorate they are the people to solve it. we prove to the electorate they are the people to solve it.— people to solve it. we are at day one of an _ people to solve it. we are at day one of an election _ people to solve it. we are at day one of an election campaign, - people to solve it. we are at day one of an election campaign, wei people to solve it. we are at day - one of an election campaign, we have seen with the polls. it's an enormous mountain for the conservative party to climb. but

there are always bumps. gordon brown, gillian duffy that sort of thing. there are always problems in elections those leaders have to navigate. you had nick clegg unexpectedly performing well in that tv debate. that is what number ten will hope, that there is a moment i can exploit. will hope, that there is a moment i can exnloit-— can exploit. the idea of the liberal democrats — can exploit. the idea of the liberal democrats and _ can exploit. the idea of the liberal democrats and the _ can exploit. the idea of the liberal democrats and the labour - can exploit. the idea of the liberal democrats and the labour party i can exploit. the idea of the liberall democrats and the labour party are not 100% ruling out any kind of deal coalition. forthe not 100% ruling out any kind of deal coalition. for the liberal democrats at the moment it doesn't make sense for them to say they would enter some kind of deal because realistically there is still time to go and it does look like labour will probably get a majority. the labour party want to wipe out all of the seats they can on their own. but that plays into the idea there is still a lot of work to do in the swing that labour have to get in order to get that safe majority is

over 12% and that is a huge swing. they will say they achieved higher in various by—elections over the past year or so taking up seats they never thought would be within their reach. but we have to remember that by—elections are not always reflected exactly the same in a general election. labour want to not be too complacent and can't rule out any future options in case. the? any future options in case. they will be buoyed _ any future options in case. they will be buoyed by _ any future options in case. they will be buoyed by those - any future options in case. they will be buoyed by those local elections was seemed to chime with a lot of the public. in terms of tv debate you would expect that and all the party leader is keen to do that. you would hope they would be keen to do that. if any of the party leaders came forward and didn't participate it doesn't send the best signal to the public. rishi sunak has held the position of prime minister for quite some time and if he decided to check out what message does that send in the same for all the other parties.

they will all want to get their message out. we they will all want to get their message out.— they will all want to get their message out. they will all want to get their messaue out. ~ ., ., ., ,.,, message out. we are going to pose from the election _ message out. we are going to pose from the election campaign - message out. we are going to pose from the election campaign and - message out. we are going to pose from the election campaign and i i from the election campaign and i want to take you to the website because you can see continuous coverage on bbc news and keep right up—to—date with all our election coverage. what the leaders have been saying, what our correspondence have been saying. so do head to the bbc news website and keep right up—to—date. as i've been saying we arejuggling two up—to—date. as i've been saying we are juggling two enormous stories, the election campaign obviously but also the post office inquiry turn to that for the next few minutes because the ex post office boss paula vennells is giving evidence at the public inquiry as they go through some of the documents and the questioning continues. let's step back in and share more of the questions and answers.

if we look at the next page and get the date _ if we look at the next page and get the date by going up a little bit. it's the — the date by going up a little bit. it's the zist and then scroll down. you to— it's the zist and then scroll down. you to mr— it's the zist and then scroll down. you to mr davies. i felt the same about_ you to mr davies. i felt the same about the — you to mr davies. i felt the same about the board. very proud and pleased — about the board. very proud and pleased. difficult but completely the right decision. the opposite would _ the right decision. the opposite would have been unconscionable after what both _ would have been unconscionable after what both lords grabbing it and knew berger— what both lords grabbing it and knew berger had said. had you listened to what loede— berger had said. had you listened to what loads grabbing it and knew berger— what loads grabbing it and knew berger had said on the call? | onlyt berger had said on the call? i only listened on _ berger had said on the call? i only listened on one _ berger had said on the call? i only listened on one call— berger had said on the call? i only listened on one call and _ berger had said on the call? i only listened on one call and i - berger had said on the call? i only listened on one call and i think - listened on one call and i think that was— listened on one call and i think that was the _ listened on one call and i think that was the loads _ listened on one call and i think that was the loads grabbing i listened on one call and i think that was the loads grabbing a i listened on one call and i think- that was the loads grabbing a call.

i had _ that was the loads grabbing a call. i had conversations— that was the loads grabbing a call. i had conversations with _ that was the loads grabbing a call. i had conversations with the - i had conversations with the fwhat's— i had conversations with the funkel's because _ i had conversations with the funkel's because i- i had conversations with the funkel's because i wasn't i i had conversations with the funkel's because i wasn't inj i had conversations with the - funkel's because i wasn't in the office _ funkel's because i wasn't in the office with — funkel's because i wasn't in the office withjane _ funkel's because i wasn't in the office with jane mcleod - funkel's because i wasn't in the office with jane mcleod so - funkel's because i wasn't in the office withjane mcleod so i- funkel's because i wasn't in thei office withjane mcleod so i may have _ office withjane mcleod so i may have heard — office withjane mcleod so i may have heard what _ office withjane mcleod so i may have heard what loads _ office withjane mcleod so i may have heard what loads knew - office withjane mcleod so i may. have heard what loads knew berger said through — have heard what loads knew berger said through them. _ have heard what loads knew berger said through them. indirectly. - said through them. indirectly. overall. — said through them. indirectly. overall. was— said through them. indirectly. overall, was the _ said through them. indirectly. overall, was the board - said through them. indirectly. overall, was the board keen. said through them. indirectly. | overall, was the board keen to said through them. indirectly. - overall, was the board keen to take these _ overall, was the board keen to take these decisions _ overall, was the board keen to take these decisions to _ overall, was the board keen to take these decisions to recuse _ overall, was the board keen to take these decisions to recuse and - these decisions to recuse and appeal? — these decisions to recuse and appeal? it— these decisions to recuse and appeal? it was— these decisions to recuse and appeal? it was really- these decisions to recuse and| appeal? it was really difficult. these decisions to recuse and - appeal? it was really difficult. the inquiry— appeal? it was really difficult. the inquiry has — appeal? it was really difficult. the inquiry has documentation - appeal? it was really difficult. the inquiry has documentation on - appeal? it was really difficult. the inquiry has documentation on it. l appeal? it was really difficult. the| inquiry has documentation on it. it was a _ inquiry has documentation on it. it was a very— inquiry has documentation on it. it was a very difficult _ inquiry has documentation on it. it was a very difficult decision. - was a very difficult decision. nobody— was a very difficult decision. nobody realty _ was a very difficult decision. nobody really quite - was a very difficult decision. nobody really quite knew. was a very difficult decision. . nobody really quite knew what was a very difficult decision. - nobody really quite knew what to do but the _ nobody really quite knew what to do but the views — nobody really quite knew what to do but the views that _ nobody really quite knew what to do but the views that came _ nobody really quite knew what to do but the views that came through - nobody really quite knew what to do. but the views that came through from lord grabbing — but the views that came through from lord grabbing that _ but the views that came through from lord grabbing that i _ but the views that came through from lord grabbing that i heard _ but the views that came through from lord grabbing that i heard and - but the views that came through from lord grabbing that i heard and what. lord grabbing that i heard and what i lord grabbing that i heard and what i heard _ lord grabbing that i heard and what i heard from — lord grabbing that i heard and what i heard from lord _ lord grabbing that i heard and what i heard from lord neuberger- lord grabbing that i heard and what i heard from lord neuberger and i i heard from lord neuberger and again— i heard from lord neuberger and again you — i heard from lord neuberger and again you have _ i heard from lord neuberger and again you have documentation i i heard from lord neuberger and| again you have documentation on i heard from lord neuberger and i again you have documentation on this were very— again you have documentation on this were very strong _ again you have documentation on this were very strong that _ again you have documentation on this were very strong that the _ again you have documentation on this were very strong that the post - were very strong that the post office — were very strong that the post office had _ were very strong that the post office had a _ were very strong that the post office had a very _ were very strong that the post office had a very good - were very strong that the post office had a very good case i

were very strong that the postl office had a very good case and were very strong that the post i office had a very good case and the board _ office had a very good case and the board took— office had a very good case and the board took that _ office had a very good case and the board took that decision. _ office had a very good case and the board took that decision. inth?- office had a very good case and the board took that decision. why were ou board took that decision. why were you proud? — board took that decision. why were you proud? because _ board took that decision. why were you proud? because i _ board took that decision. why were you proud? because i think- board took that decision. why were you proud? because i think it i board took that decision. why were you proud? because i think it took, this is about _ you proud? because i think it took, this is about the _ you proud? because i think it took, this is about the people _ you proud? because i think it took, this is about the people around i you proud? because i think it took, this is about the people around the| this is about the people around the table. _ this is about the people around the table. nothing _ this is about the people around the table, nothing more _ this is about the people around the table, nothing more than - this is about the people around the table, nothing more than that. i this is about the people around the| table, nothing more than that. they were being — table, nothing more than that. they were being asked _ table, nothing more than that. they were being asked as _ table, nothing more than that. they were being asked as individuals- table, nothing more than that. they were being asked as individuals to l were being asked as individuals to take a _ were being asked as individuals to take a difficult _ were being asked as individuals to take a difficult decision _ were being asked as individuals to take a difficult decision to - were being asked as individuals to take a difficult decision to ask i were being asked as individuals to take a difficult decision to ask a i take a difficult decision to ask a judge _ take a difficult decision to ask a judge to — take a difficult decision to ask a judge to recuse _ take a difficult decision to ask a judge to recuse himself- take a difficult decision to ask a judge to recuse himself and ii take a difficult decision to ask a i judge to recuse himself and i think it was— judge to recuse himself and i think it was also— judge to recuse himself and i think it was also about _ judge to recuse himself and i think it was also about appealing - judge to recuse himself and i think it was also about appealing the i it was also about appealing the case _ it was also about appealing the case they— it was also about appealing the case they are _ it was also about appealing the case. they are decisions - it was also about appealing the l case. they are decisions nobody it was also about appealing the i case. they are decisions nobody in their— case. they are decisions nobody in their professional— case. they are decisions nobody in their professional life _ case. they are decisions nobody in their professional life was - case. they are decisions nobody in their professional life was to - case. they are decisions nobody in their professional life was to be i their professional life was to be involved — their professional life was to be involved in— their professional life was to be involved in frankly. _ their professional life was to be involved in frankly. they - their professional life was to be involved in frankly. they are i their professional life was to be i involved in frankly. they are very difficult — involved in frankly. they are very difficult. ~ , , ., involved in frankly. they are very difficult. , , involved in frankly. they are very difficult. ~ , , had difficult. why were you pleased? had i been involved _ difficult. why were you pleased? had i been involved in _ difficult. why were you pleased? had i been involved in the _ difficult. why were you pleased? had i been involved in the conversation i i been involved in the conversation i been involved in the conversation i probably— i been involved in the conversation i probably would _ i been involved in the conversation i probably would have _ i been involved in the conversation i probably would have arrived i i been involved in the conversation i probably would have arrived at i i been involved in the conversationl i probably would have arrived at the same _ i probably would have arrived at the same conclusion. _ i probably would have arrived at the same conclusion. the?— i probably would have arrived at the same conclusion.— same conclusion. they are the only ruestions same conclusion. they are the only questions but _ same conclusion. they are the only questions but you _ same conclusion. they are the only questions but you will— same conclusion. they are the only questions but you will be _

same conclusion. they are the only questions but you will be asked i questions but you will be asked questions but you will be asked questions tomorrow by co—participants. questions tomorrow by co-participants. speaking of tomorrow. _ co-participants. speaking of tomorrow, i— co-participants. speaking of tomorrow, i understand i co-participants. speaking of tomorrow, i understand you j co-participants. speaking of- tomorrow, i understand you have agreed a timetable with the core participants and it's all in hand. for personal reasons i will not be participating in the room but participating in the room but participating remotely. but i fully expect that the excellent behaviour which has prevailed throughout the course of the day will continue, notwithstanding i am on the screen as opposed to sitting here. i have an easy means of controlling you all even on the screen but jason beer will act as my adjuvant in ensuring things go smoothly. that is tomorrow. just one or two other announcements. firstly, some people are away that the lady you've heard

about, miss mcleod, is not willing to come and give oral evidence to the inquiry. i think i indicated to core participants through the secretariat or my legal team that we would provide an explanation for that. if i hadn't done that i am now telling you that we will provide an explanation in writing which should be with you tomorrow. and the final announcement i wish to make is that you may have heard there is going to be a general election shortly. my view currently is that will not interfere with the timetable of the inquiry saved for the day of the election and the day after. i have decided that we will not sit onjuly the 4th and july the 5th but subject to that i propose so far as is

humanly possible to continue as if the election is not occurring. those are the announcements i wish to make and tomorrow we will start again at 9:45am. that was the inquiry adjourning for the day, the second day of evidence from paula vennells. she will be back tomorrow. it has been a day of tough questions in terms of the cross examination so let's bring in our correspondence who has been listening throughout the course of today and yesterday. just a thought in terms of an overarching thought on the thrust of today plasma questioning. this on the thrust of today plasma questioning-—

on the thrust of today plasma truestionin. ~ ,_, ,., �* ., questioning. as jason beer of the council to the _ questioning. as jason beer of the council to the inquiry _ questioning. as jason beer of the council to the inquiry put - questioning. as jason beer of the council to the inquiry put it, i questioning. as jason beer of the council to the inquiry put it, a i questioning. as jason beer of the council to the inquiry put it, a lot| council to the inquiry put it, a lot of this has been about controlling the narrative and more importantly this has also been about the alleged cover—up because that is exactly what sub—postmasters are accusing the post office of during the tenure that paula vennells was in charge from 2012 to 2019. you may remember that yesterday was a particularly emotional day for paula vennells. she broke into tears four times. we didn't see that today but they were definitely moments especially this afternoon when she was holding back some tears. she is under a lot of pressure and you can understand why. i want to go into some of the big moments we have seen under that big umbrella and one of them is to do with the second sight report. in 2013 they were publishing the interim report looking into whether they were any problems with the

horizon it system that could have led to wrongful convictions. they were the independent investigators brought on by the post office. in response to that reported was put to paula vennells that the post office attempted to narrow the scope and she denied all of that and said that in fact her concern was the thought second sight was getting too expensive and wasn't completed they go. expensive and wasn't completed they 90- " expensive and wasn't completed they go. —— completing their goal. jason beer are then moved on to that senior 2013 susan crichton produced a report for a board meeting on that report highlighted the fact they could be successful claims of wrongful prosecution. she was going to present a report to the board but it didn't happen. instead she was sitting on a chair outside the board meeting and the inquiry counsel said

she was sitting outside like a naughty schoolgirl. he put it to paula vennells that the executive team was so concerned with shielding the board from crucial information because they were concerned that then we wrote they would have to disclose it to sub—postmasters, the media, the public she denied that. take a listen to that exchange. fiur take a listen to that exchange. our current approach would mean there is going _ current approach would mean there is going to _ current approach would mean there is going to be _ current approach would mean there is going to be some coverage but not very much, — going to be some coverage but not very much, the usual suspects. if we say we _ very much, the usual suspects. if we say we will— very much, the usual suspects. if we say we will look back at past cases we will _ say we will look back at past cases we will be — say we will look back at past cases we will be on the front page. isn't he directly— we will be on the front page. isn't he directly saying... i we will be on the front page. isn't he directly saying. . ._ he directly saying... i can see that's what — he directly saying... i can see that's what he's _ he directly saying... i can see that's what he's saying i he directly saying... i can see that's what he's saying but i he directly saying... i can see | that's what he's saying but my mindset — that's what he's saying but my mindset at _ that's what he's saying but my mindset at the _ that's what he's saying but my mindset at the time _ that's what he's saying but my mindset at the time when i. that's what he's saying but my- mindset at the time when i received this is— mindset at the time when i received this is that — mindset at the time when i received this is that we — mindset at the time when i received this is that we are _ mindset at the time when i received this is that we are working - mindset at the time when i received this is that we are working on - this is that we are working on specific— this is that we are working on specific cases— this is that we are working on specific cases that _ this is that we are working on specific cases that were - this is that we are working on l specific cases that were coming forwards— specific cases that were coming forwards and _ specific cases that were coming forwards and we _ specific cases that were coming forwards and we opened - specific cases that were coming forwards and we opened up... i specific cases that were coming i forwards and we opened up... the e-mail you — forwards and we opened up... the e-mail you had —

forwards and we opened up... e—mail you had sent says shall forwards and we opened up...- e—mail you had sent says shall we look back— e—mail you had sent says shall we look back 12 — e—mail you had sent says shall we look back 12 to 18 months since separation or shall we go back further? — separation or shall we go back further? why aren't we going back further? _ further? why aren't we going back further? this says you can't do that because _ further? this says you can't do that because you — further? this says you can't do that because you will be on the front page _ because you will be on the front page. that is a grossly improper perspective. yes it is. what would you say— perspective. yes it is. what would you say to — perspective. yes it is. what would you say to the suggestion this is the executive team shielding the board _ the executive team shielding the board from the executive team was '5 dirty laundry? | board from the executive team was 's dirty laundry?— dirty laundry? i would say it was completely _ dirty laundry? i would say it was completely wrong. _ dirty laundry? i would say it was completely wrong. that - dirty laundry? i would say it was completely wrong. that we i dirty laundry? i would say it was completely wrong. that we can l dirty laundry? i would say it was - completely wrong. that we can manage the roblem completely wrong. that we can manage the problem away _ completely wrong. that we can manage the problem away if _ completely wrong. that we can manage the problem away if the _ completely wrong. that we can manage the problem away if the board - completely wrong. that we can manage the problem away if the board no i the problem away if the board no they will— the problem away if the board no they will ask the proper questions and they— they will ask the proper questions and they may ensure we disclose all of this— and they may ensure we disclose all of this stuff to sub—postmasters, to the ccr_ of this stuff to sub—postmasters, to the ccr c— of this stuff to sub—postmasters, to the ccr c and the public and parliament. | the ccr c and the public and parliament.— the ccr c and the public and parliament. , , ., , parliament. i feel very strongly about that _ parliament. i feel very strongly about that because _ parliament. i feel very strongly about that because one - parliament. i feel very strongly about that because one of i parliament. i feel very strongly about that because one of the l about that because one of the elements— about that because one of the elements that _ about that because one of the elements that was _ about that because one of the elements that was so - about that because one of the l elements that was so important about that because one of the i elements that was so important to about that because one of the - elements that was so important to me was to— elements that was so important to me was to have _ elements that was so important to me was to have the — elements that was so important to me was to have the board _ elements that was so important to me was to have the board challenged i was to have the board challenged because — was to have the board challenged because i— was to have the board challenged because i was— was to have the board challenged because i was very _ was to have the board challenged because i was very aware - was to have the board challenged

because i was very aware that i. was to have the board challenged . because i was very aware that i was not a _ because i was very aware that i was not a legal— because i was very aware that i was not a legal expert. _ because i was very aware that i was not a legal expert. you _ because i was very aware that i was not a legal expert.— not a legal expert. you can see a lot of that _ not a legal expert. you can see a lot of that has _ not a legal expert. you can see a lot of that has to _ not a legal expert. you can see a lot of that has to do _ not a legal expert. you can see a lot of that has to do with - not a legal expert. you can see a lot of that has to do with the i not a legal expert. you can see a l lot of that has to do with the issue of controlling the narrative, the pr response, heragreeing of controlling the narrative, the pr response, her agreeing with mark davies chief of pr at the time who oversaw this aggressive media strategy arguing that if they did look into all these past criminal convictions that it will end up being front—page news. she insisted media adkins had nothing to do with those decisions and again she denied she was shielding the board from any of this information. this is only day two. it of this information. this is only da two. , of this information. this is only da two. , ., ., of this information. this is only da two. ., , ., day two. it is and of course on day one all those _ day two. it is and of course on day one all those sub-postmasters i day two. it is and of course on day l one all those sub-postmasters have one all those sub—postmasters have been waiting so long to hear from her and they would have been there again today. what are the sorts of things they have been saying? thea;r things they have been saying? they kee sa in:

things they have been saying? they keep saying the _ things they have been saying? tue: keep saying the same things they have been saying? tte: keep saying the same thing, things they have been saying? t"te:1: keep saying the same thing, that they cannot handle it when they see these witnesses what executives saying i don't recall or i don't remember. if you are in the inquiry room you sometimes hear chuckles or grounds because they become exasperated. at one point today paula vennells said the words my recollection is i don't recall. for several of them were here today, they have said the are reliving everything and one thing that really stands out is that no matter how many times you talk to them about the stories, whether it's to do with bankruptcy or criminal records in prison sentences, they still tear up as they start talking about this. and sitting in that room with paula vennells, they want answers, they

want full