where there is discord, may we bring harmony. we where there is discord, may we bring harmon . ~ w where there is discord, may we bring harmon . ~ g, a, a, harmony. we are on the road to the classless society _ harmony. we are on the road to the classless society that _ harmony. we are on the road to the classless society that i _

harmony. we are on the road to the classless society that i wish - harmony. we are on the road to the classless society that i wish to - classless society that i wish to see _ classless society that i wish to see. ~ . , . see. we have been elected as new labour and — see. we have been elected as new labour and we _ see. we have been elected as new labour and we will _ see. we have been elected as new labour and we will govern - see. we have been elected as new labour and we will govern as - see. we have been elected as new labour and we will govern as newl labour and we will govern as new laboun _ labour and we will govern as new labour. . ~ . r' labour and we will govern as new labour. . ~ . ,~' ., ., labour and we will govern as new labour. w . ., ., ., labour. taking a risk, having a go. that pumps _ labour. taking a risk, having a go. that pumps me — labour. taking a risk, having a go. that pumps me up- _ labour. taking a risk, having a go. that pumps me up. it— labour. taking a risk, having a go. that pumps me up. it is— labour. taking a risk, having a go. that pumps me up. it is a - labour. taking a risk, having a go. that pumps me up. it is a choice i that pumps me up. it is a choice between me _ that pumps me up. it is a choice between me and _ that pumps me up. it is a choice between me and jeremy - that pumps me up. it is a choice between me and jeremy corbyn. i that pumps me up. it is a choice - between me and jeremy corbyn. let's aet brexit between me and jeremy corbyn. let's get brexit done- _ between me and jeremy corbyn. let's get brexit done. campaign, _ between me and jeremy corbyn. let's get brexit done. campaign, day - between me and jeremy corbyn. let's get brexit done. campaign, day one. | which leader knows how to win an election? tonight we'll talk live to the man running the tory campaign, the chairman of the conservatives. and to the leader of reform, as nigel farage announced today which leader knows how

to win an election? tonight we'll talk live to the man running the tory campaign, the chairman of the conservatives. and to the leader of reform, as nigel farage announced today he won't attempt to become an mp for the eighth time. that's thought to be good news for the tories but with the prime minister also admitting no flights to rwanda will take off before the election, why shld voters believe his pledge to stop the boats? and we'll talk live to to the shadow defence secretary. plus, let me introduce our newsnighter panel tonight — two people who've been at the heart of previous labour and conservatives campaigns. what goes on behind the scenes? also tonight — more patient safety concerns at an nhs trust in sussex, where medical equipment and part of a bowel were left in a patient�*s stomach after surgery. welcome to election newsnight — with you live each weekday night at 10:30 on bbc two and bbc news. it's day one — the most important day for leaders of all parties to frame their message to you. over the next six weeks we will hear from all the parties from right across the uk.

nick's here. what have we learned? today was the first really full — what have we learned? today was the first really full day _ what have we learned? today was the first really full day of _ what have we learned? today was the first really full day of a _ what have we learned? today was the first really full day of a six _ what have we learned? today was the first really full day of a six week - first really full day of a six week campaign. because it's a six—week campaign. because it's a six—week campaign you might say that the horses are off, like the grand national, and there will be slipped and triumphs. what you are saying is right, that this is potentially one of the most significant if not the most significant day of that election campaign because the leaders, they need to tell us who they are. they need to ram home theirfundamental they are. they need to ram home their fundamental message. they are. they need to ram home theirfundamental message. for the their fundamental message. for the two theirfundamental message. for the two leaders, keir starmer and rishi sunak, vying to be prime minister, they have to do that better. for keir starmer he was in gillingham in kent, the medway town, the kind of place that tony blair would win in his sleep and labour have struggled there ever since. his killer message, i am there ever since. his killer message, iam change there ever since. his killer message, i am change and rishi sunak is more chaos. in derbyshire, rishi

sunak, he must win the seat to stay in government. his message, don't risk change with labour, inflation is down and the economic plan is working. what do we know about the characters? a tightly controlled launch for keir starmer at gillingham football ground but it was a football ground, his natural environment. rishi sunak, there was a football theme, but not so comfortable when he had an appearance at a brewery in barry in south wales. you looking forward to all the football? not so much my bag, but... well... no, that's because you guys aren't in it! - laughter. you know, there will be people out, people coming. it will be a good summer of sport. support england at least. well, a bit awkward _ support england at least. well, a bit awkward because _ support england at least. well, a bit awkward because of _ support england at least. well, a bit awkward because of course i support england at least. well, a - bit awkward because of course wales haven't qualified for the euros. all

sorts of sensitivities, does the prime minister realise that they are the nations teams? the charitable thing to say is that the prime minister is a cricket man although he supports southampton. there are many conservative mps who believe that campaigning is not one of rishi sunaknatural strengths and there are nervous that appearance. brute sunaknatural strengths and there are nervous that appearance.— nervous that appearance. we are auoin to nervous that appearance. we are going to speak— nervous that appearance. we are going to speak to _ nervous that appearance. we are going to speak to richard - nervous that appearance. we are going to speak to richard tice i nervous that appearance. we are l going to speak to richard tice and there was an announcement today that is very significant for reform uk? that's right, the big announcement, nigel farage saying he won't stand in this election and he isn't going to lead the reform campaign but he says he's going to support richard tice and he's going to fight in every single way. there was a lot of relief in tory circles when they heard that because they really feared the impact of nigel farage, with his prominence, if he took

charge of the campaign. maybe they're having a rethink because nigel farage isn't going to be focusing on his gb news show. the challenge for reform is that they really need to show that they haven't lost momentum after the local elections earlier this month. and how much do they have of their star power? the other parties in the election really matter. we saw the lib dems today, so ed davey leading them in cheltenham, the kind of blue wool seat that they need to take from the tories. —— the kind of blue wall seat. the green party, what kind of threat are they from the left flank? concern, is labour doing enough on climate change? concern about gaza. could they scoop up votes in those areas. john swinney, the new leader of the snp, the new first minister in scotland, launching their campaign in

edinburgh, using interesting language, calling himself moderate left of centre. he is saying that they are the biggest challenge to they are the biggest challenge to the conservatives in scotland. the scottish conservatives winning six seats in 2019 and the snp are in second place. seats in 2019 and the snp are in second place-— we can talk now to the man in charge of the conservatives' election campaign, the chairman of the party, richard holden. in 2019 he was elected in north—east durham, if i've got that right. indeed? ~ ., durham, if i've got that right. indeed? ~ . ., ., , ., , ., indeed? with a ma'ority of 'ust over 1000. indeed? with a ma'ority of 'ust over woo. yes, i indeed? with a ma'ority of 'ust over woo. yes, nah indeed? with a majority of 'ust over 1000. yes, first time _ indeed? with a majority of 'ust over 1000. yes, first time it _ indeed? with a majority ofjust over 1000. yes, first time it was - indeed? with a majority ofjust over 1000. yes, first time it was held - indeed? with a majority ofjust over 1000. yes, first time it was held by| 1000. yes, first time it was held by the conservatives. _ 1000. yes, first time it was held by the conservatives. it _ 1000. yes, first time it was held by the conservatives. it had _ 1000. yes, first time it was held by the conservatives. it had been - 1000. yes, first time it was held by the conservatives. it had been a . the conservatives. it had been a labour seat since its creation and before that it was labour and even a liberal seat. it before that it was labour and even a liberal seat-— liberal seat. it must be a nervous time for you now? _ liberal seat. it must be a nervous time for you now? my _ liberal seat. it must be a nervous. time for you now? my constituency liberal seat. it must be a nervous - time for you now? my constituency is being abolished, spitting four ways due to population changes that happened since the last review in

2005 or so. 50 happened since the last review in 2005 or so— happened since the last review in 2005 or so. , �* ., 2005 or so. so sadly i can't run for north west — 2005 or so. so sadly i can't run for north west durham _ 2005 or so. so sadly i can't run for north west durham but _ 2005 or so. so sadly i can't run for north west durham but we - 2005 or so. so sadly i can't run for north west durham but we will. 2005 or so. so sadly i can't run for| north west durham but we will see what happens over the next few weeks. ., ., , ., what happens over the next few weeks. ., ., i. ., ., weeks. how are you going to win the election? it's — weeks. how are you going to win the election? it's quite _ weeks. how are you going to win the election? it's quite clear, _ weeks. how are you going to win the election? it's quite clear, there is . election? it's quite clear, there is a big choice _ election? it's quite clear, there is a big choice for— election? it's quite clear, there is a big choice for the _ election? it's quite clear, there is a big choice for the country, - a big choice for the country, between the prime minister who has had a clear plan, especially around the economy, people talking about stability required when he is clear that he has delivered that economic security with inflation going down from over 11%, down to normal levels, just over two mac percent. and economic growth, higher than our major european competitors. those two things feed into the crucial economic metrics, to ensure that managing debt and getting it falling as a percentage of gdp over time.

although debt will be higher in five years under the 0br. although debt will be higher in five years under the oer.— years under the obr. under their current forecast. _ years under the obr. under their current forecast. it _ years under the obr. under their current forecast. it may - years under the obr. under their current forecast. it may be - years under the obr. under theirl current forecast. it may be falling. but it's all about _ current forecast. it may be falling. but it's all about measuring - current forecast. it may be falling. but it's all about measuring it - current forecast. it may be falling. but it's all about measuring it as l current forecast. it may be falling. but it's all about measuring it as a i but it's all about measuring it as a percentage of gdp. but but it's all about measuring it as a percentage of gdp.— but it's all about measuring it as a percentage of gdp. but it means that debt is going — percentage of gdp. but it means that debt is going to _ percentage of gdp. but it means that debt is going to be _ percentage of gdp. but it means that debt is going to be higher _ percentage of gdp. but it means that debt is going to be higher in - percentage of gdp. but it means that debt is going to be higher in five - debt is going to be higher in five years, it is going up. this a years, it is going up. as a percentage _ years, it is going up. as a percentage of _ years, it is going up. as a percentage of gdp - years, it is going up. as a percentage of gdp is - years, it is going up. as a | percentage of gdp is what years, it is going up. sis —. percentage of gdp is what really matters because it is whether the government has control. with that timeframe, even with the debt as it is... tens of thousands which is what david cameron promised when he was campaigning to be conservative prime minister 1a years ago, why would they vote for your party when you've introduced policies that have seen nat and getting to 685,000 —— seen nat and getting to 685,000 —— seen nat and getting to 685,000 —— seen nat migration getting to 685,000? some of that has been

because of the support we have given internationally for refugees. i can internationally for refugees. i can cive ou internationally for refugees. i can give you the _ internationally for refugees. i can give you the exact _ internationally for refugees. i can give you the exact figures - internationally for refugees. i can give you the exact figures for last year. the humanitarian visas from ukraine and hong kong made up 7% of the 1.4 million visas the government issued last year.— issued last year. you're right and that's why _ issued last year. you're right and that's why we've _ issued last year. you're right and that's why we've taken _ issued last year. you're right and that's why we've taken some - issued last year. you're right and i that's why we've taken some pretty decisive action on other areas. one of them has been the student visa route where people can bring families through even if they are just doing a one—year masters degree. and other postgraduates as well. ., . , well. you are bringing in new reforms to — well. you are bringing in new reforms to reverse _ well. you are bringing in new reforms to reverse the - well. you are bringing in new. reforms to reverse the reforms well. you are bringing in new- reforms to reverse the reforms that you literally brought in in 2021 with net migration?— you literally brought in in 2021 with net migration? some of those thins with net migration? some of those things around _ with net migration? some of those things around student _ with net migration? some of those things around student visas - with net migration? some of those i things around student visas exploded in a way that people didn't expect. but you implement it them but you didn't expect it and that's on your

watch. in didn't expect it and that's on your watch. . , , didn't expect it and that's on your watch. . ,, ,., ., didn't expect it and that's on your watch. . ,, ., watch. in fairness, some of those have been — watch. in fairness, some of those have been around _ watch. in fairness, some of those have been around for— watch. in fairness, some of those have been around for quite - watch. in fairness, some of those have been around for quite a - watch. in fairness, some of thosei have been around for quite a long time, some of the student visa rules, some of the changes we've seenin rules, some of the changes we've seen in terms of people bringing families. when i visited some of my nearby universities recently it was one of the big issues they raised with me. i one of the big issues they raised with me. . ., one of the big issues they raised with me. .., . ,, ., , one of the big issues they raised with me. ., , , ., with me. i come back to my question, why should — with me. i come back to my question, why should the _ with me. i come back to my question, why should the voters _ with me. i come back to my question, why should the voters trust _ with me. i come back to my question, why should the voters trust you - with me. i come back to my question, why should the voters trust you on - why should the voters trust you on net migration? let me go through the tory pledges, 2010, mr cameron promised in the campaign, bringing net migration down to the tens of thousands. did it happen? clearly that hasn't happened. _ thousands. did it happen? clearly that hasn't happened. right, - thousands. did it happen? clearly that hasn't happened. right, in i that hasn't happened. right, in 2015, the manifesto, _ that hasn't happened. right, in 2015, the manifesto, it- that hasn't happened. right, in 2015, the manifesto, it was - 2015, the manifesto, it was reiterated, did that happen? we've seen a big change... _ reiterated, did that happen? we've seen a big change... did _ reiterated, did that happen? we've seen a big change... did it - reiterated, did that happen? we've| seen a big change... did it happen? no. seen a big change... did it happen? no- theresa — seen a big change... did it happen? no. theresa may _ seen a big change... did it happen? no. theresa may reiterated - seen a big change... did it happen? no. theresa may reiterated the - seen a big change... did it happen? | no. theresa may reiterated the tens of thousands — no. theresa may reiterated the tens of thousands pledge, _ no. theresa may reiterated the tens of thousands pledge, did _ no. theresa may reiterated the tens of thousands pledge, did that - of thousands pledge, did that happen? of thousands pledge, did that ha--en? . of thousands pledge, did that happen? 140. they later manifesto... happen? no. they later manifesto... you can happen? its. they later manifesto... you can go through these and it is

clear... it you can go through these and it is clear... , . , you can go through these and it is clear... , ., , ., clear... it is really important because _ clear... it is really important because you _ clear... it is really important because you have _ clear... it is really important because you have made - clear... it is really important because you have made this| clear... it is really important - because you have made this promise in every election and in fact you have delivered the complete opposite because of policies you implemented, the numbers have gone up and up so i ask why voters should believe you this time? ., , , this time? one of the big things we saw at the start _ this time? one of the big things we saw at the start of _ this time? one of the big things we saw at the start of some _ this time? one of the big things we saw at the start of some of - this time? one of the big things we saw at the start of some of those . saw at the start of some of those periods, we were still in the european union in 2015, there were no controls on net migration. it no controls on net migration. it went higher after brexit when you promise to take back control! irate promise to take back control! we didn't promise to take back control! - didn't know who was in the country at that point and many people registered as british citizens, for leave to remain and under the different schemes. net migration last year is double what it was before brexit. that is why we are bringing in a panoply of changes, especially around student visas. it is why we have to deal with the

illegal migration as well. just is why we have to deal with the illegal migration as well. just as a context, illegal migration as well. just as a context. as _ illegal migration as well. just as a context. as a _ illegal migration as well. just as a context, as a government - illegal migration as well. just as a context, as a government you - illegal migration as well. just as a - context, as a government you focused very much on what you call illegal migration but let's get those figures in perspective. 30,000 people crossing the channel on small boats last year according to the home office about your government issued 1.4 million visas to people, so people can see the difference. they can, one of the things that's particularly concerning is when they see illegal crossings because we have no idea who these people are. on the other side we don't want to 0n the other side we don't want to see people dying and drowning trying to get to the uk either. it is one of those things, it is very important that we tackle it to stop providing those factors pulling people in. we have close some of those routes. a few years ago, people dying in the back of lorries to get across the channel. we have seen this as a perennial problem which is why we are implementing the

rwanda scheme.— rwanda scheme. you're not. will you have sent any — rwanda scheme. you're not. will you have sent any asylum _ rwanda scheme. you're not. will you have sent any asylum seekers - rwanda scheme. you're not. will you have sent any asylum seekers to - have sent any asylum seekers to rwanda before the next election? let me answer your first question, yes, we have, we passed legislation in parliament. ibig we have, we passed legislation in parliament-— parliament. big deal! rishi sunak said today- -- _ parliament. big deal! rishi sunak said today... but _ parliament. big deal! rishi sunak said today... but it's _ parliament. big deal! rishi sunak said today... but it's going - parliament. big deal! rishi sunak said today... but it's going to - said today... but it's going to ha en. said today... but it's going to happen- what _ said today... but it's going to happen. what is _ said today... but it's going to happen. what is going - said today... but it's going to happen. what is going to - said today... but it's going to - happen. what is going to happen? fli . hts will happen. what is going to happen? flights will be _ happen. what is going to happen? flights will be going _ happen. what is going to happen? flights will be going to _ happen. what is going to happen? flights will be going to rwanda. i happen. what is going to happen? i flights will be going to rwanda. not before the election. may _ flights will be going to rwanda. not before the election. may be - flights will be going to rwanda. not before the election. may be not. - before the election. may be not. what do you _ before the election. may be not. what do you mean, _ before the election. may be not. what do you mean, maybe - before the election. may be not. what do you mean, maybe not? | before the election. may be not. . what do you mean, maybe not? we assed what do you mean, maybe not? - passed legislation. what do you mean, maybe not? we passed legislation. you _ what do you mean, maybe not? we passed legislation. you just - passed legislation. you 'ust questionedi passed legislation. you 'ust questioned whether i passed legislation. you 'ust questioned whether we h passed legislation. you just | questioned whether we have passed legislation. you just - questioned whether we have taken action. �* .., , questioned whether we have taken action. �* , . questioned whether we have taken action-— itut - questioned whether we have taken i action._ but passing action. because we have. but passing leuislation action. because we have. but passing legislation is — action. because we have. but passing legislation is one _ action. because we have. but passing legislation is one thing. _ action. because we have. but passing legislation is one thing. has - action. because we have. but passing legislation is one thing. has then i legislation is one thing. has then actually got to work. it has then got to work. are you saying that flights will take off before the election? 1 flights will take off before the election? �* ,._ flights will take off before the election? �* ._ ., flights will take off before the election? �* ,._ ., . election? i didn't say that. we assed election? i didn't say that. we passed the — election? i didn't say that. we passed the legislation - election? i didn't say that. we passed the legislation which i election? i didn't say that. we 1 passed the legislation which is election? i didn't say that. we i passed the legislation which is the fundamental thing that we need to do in order to be able to do it. labour have opposed everything we have done. it have opposed everything we have

done. . ~ , have opposed everything we have done. . ,, , ., ' . done. it makes no difference whether the voted done. it makes no difference whether they voted or — done. it makes no difference whether they voted or not, _ done. it makes no difference whether they voted or not, there _ done. it makes no difference whether they voted or not, there will- done. it makes no difference whether they voted or not, there will be i done. it makes no difference whether they voted or not, there will be no i they voted or not, there will be no flights. rishi sunak has called the election before he can show that the plan is working. itruiitli election before he can show that the plan is working-— plan is working. with respect it makes a difference _ plan is working. with respect it makes a difference because i plan is working. with respect it i makes a difference because actually it shows a clear choice in the election... it shows a clear choice in the election- - -— it shows a clear choice in the election... ~ ., ., , election... what, no flights with keir starmer _ election... what, no flights with keir starmer and _ election... what, no flights with keir starmer and no _ election... what, no flights with keir starmer and no flights i election... what, no flights with keir starmer and no flights with | keir starmer and no flights with rishi sunak?— rishi sunak? there will be no fliuhts rishi sunak? there will be no flights with — rishi sunak? there will be no flights with keir _ rishi sunak? there will be no flights with keir starmer. i rishi sunak? there will be no i flights with keir starmer. there are no fli . hts flights with keir starmer. there are no flights with _ flights with keir starmer. there are no flights with rishi _ flights with keir starmer. there are no flights with rishi sunak! - flights with keir starmer. there are no flights with rishi sunak! it i flights with keir starmer. there are no flights with rishi sunak! it is i no flights with rishi sunak! it is our scheme- — no flights with rishi sunak! it is our scheme. if _ no flights with rishi sunak! it is our scheme. if you _ no flights with rishi sunak! it 3 our scheme. if you vote conservative there will be flights to rwanda. a clear difference. keir starmer has been clear, there will be no flights, we will cancel the scheme. in fairness they have been clear about it, they have said that if you get to the uk you can stay under a labour government. we are moving in a clear direction now. it is a reduction in the number of migrants for the year and that is not including some of the things we have implemented. but we also have a

clear plan to deal with illegal migration, something labour... thanks forjoining us. let's speak to labour's shadow defence secretaryjohn healey. mr healey, thank you very much for talking to us. 0h, mr healey, thank you very much for talking to us. oh, you are behind me. i'm so sorry. you are talking to us from your constituency. rishi sunak says that the uk would be less safe under keir starmer. is he right? safe under keir starmer. is he riuht? ., safe under keir starmer. is he right? 140. why not? safe under keir starmer. is he right?- why not?— safe under keir starmer. is he right?- why not? right? no. why not? first of all... first of all — right? no. why not? first of all... first of all we _ right? no. why not? first of all... first of all we have _ right? no. why not? first of all... first of all we have seen _ right? no. why not? first of all... first of all we have seen 14 - right? no. why not? first of all... first of all we have seen 14 years. first of all we have seen 14 years of our armed forces being hollowed out and underfunded as ben wallace admitted in the house of commons. second, labourwill admitted in the house of commons. second, labour will always spend what is required to defend the country. keir starmer served in government as i have, we both know that the first duty of any

government is to keep citizens safe and defend the nation.— and defend the nation. right, on that oint and defend the nation. right, on that point then _ and defend the nation. right, on that point then if _ and defend the nation. right, on that point then if i _ and defend the nation. right, on that point then if i may. forgive | and defend the nation. right, on i that point then if i may. forgive me because you are on zoom there is a slight delay. on that point then you have made some spending promises to the electorate like great british energy for example. but you haven't matched the conservative's promise to raise defence spending to 2.5% of gdp in a time frame. that might say to voters that you don't think protecting the country is as important as other areas. irate protecting the country is as important as other areas. we will increase defence _ important as other areas. we will increase defence spending. i important as other areas. we will increase defence spending. we i important as other areas. we will. increase defence spending. we must do that as a nation to deal with increasing threats. ._ do that as a nation to deal with | increasing threats. .- we do that as a nation to deal with i increasing threats. .- we will increasing threats. . when? we will do that as soon _ increasing threats. . when? we will do that as soon as _ increasing threats. . when? we will do that as soon as we _ increasing threats. . when? we will do that as soon as we can. - increasing threats. . when? we will do that as soon as we can. and i increasing threats. . when? we will| do that as soon as we can. and from opposition we will set out our plan when we are able to get into government if we win the election. at that point we can examine and get to grips with the classified

information. we don't have access to it at the moment on the threats we face, the capabilities we need, the state of our armed forces as well as the state of the public finances when we open the books. that is the way you balance the requirements of stronger national security with the responsibilities of sound public finances. and the last time that britain was spending 2.5% of gdp on defence was in 2010 with labour. they have never matched that level in any of the 14 years since. now on the eve of the election they issue a press statement not in the budget, not part of the forecast financial plans for this government, saying they will also now raise it to 2.5%. we must do that as a nation there is no difference between us on that. that is a difference. they say they will do it by 2030, you can't tell voters when. let will do it by 2030, you can't tell voters when-— will do it by 2030, you can't tell voters when. let me 'ust be clear about that. t voters when. let me 'ust be clear about that. that i voters when. let me 'ust be clear about that. that is i voters when. let me just be clear about that. that is a... _ voters when. let me just be clear

about that. that is a... if - voters when. let me just be clear about that. that is a... if they i voters when. let me just be clear| about that. that is a... if they had done this in any of the five budgets or autumn statements since they first promised that, that would have been independently checked. it would have been openly costed and fully funded. it is none of those things. . ok, i hear that you don't believe it. don't believe me the institute for fiscal studies, _ it. don't believe me the institute for fiscal studies, the _ it. don't believe me the institute for fiscal studies, the institute i for fiscal studies, the institute for fiscal studies, the institute for government, they say that their so—called plan tax... will get nowhere close to covering the cost. 0k. how far would nowhere close to covering the cost. 0k. how farwould keir starmer go nowhere close to covering the cost. 0k. how far would keir starmer go if he were to become the next by minister of this country? how far would he go to defend the uk? he will would he go to defend the uk? he: will do whatever is needed to defend the uk. it is what any government must always do. and the steps we must always do. and the steps we must now take require us to reinforce our homeland defences.

they require us to give top priority to our nato obligations because our allies in nato are part of the defence of britain, as well as our obligations to them. we will make our close allies our strategic strength by striking new defence agreements with germany, rebooting the agreement with france and looking for a defence agreement between the uk and the european union. and above all then we will renew the nation's contract with those who serve and the families that support them, which has been corroded after the last 14 years and has seen service morale now plans to record lows. find has seen service morale now plans to record lows-— record lows. and can i 'ust check in terms of how h record lows. and can i 'ust check in terms of how far i record lows. and can i 'ust check in terms of how far he i record lows. and can ijust check in terms of how far he would - record lows. and can ijust check in terms of how far he would go i record lows. and can ijust check in terms of how far he would go to i terms of how far he would go to defend this country. does that include using nuclear weapons? we have include using nuclear weapons? - have an unshakeable commitment to the nuclear deterrent. it was a labour government after the war that

was instrumental in establishing nato and establishing our uk deterrent. and we have given a triple lock commitment to that. we will build the new submarines necessary, we will renew the trident warhead and we will maintain our continuing at sea deterrent. part of the deterrence of any strength of our forces is a willingness to be ready to use if necessary. and the uncertainty and ambiguity that that could create in the minds of those who may threaten us. it has been part of the stability and peace that we have been able to enjoy in britain and our protections over the last six or seven decades.— britain and our protections over the last six or seven decades. thank you ve much last six or seven decades. thank you very much for— last six or seven decades. thank you very much for talking _ last six or seven decades. thank you very much for talking to _ last six or seven decades. thank you very much for talking to our- very much for talking to our audience tonight. john healey, shadow defence secretary. let's hear from our panel: tom hamilton, an ex—labour advisor who worked closely with former leader ed miliband and worked on the 2015 campaign and jo tanner, the political comentator and mastermind of borisjohnson's

2008 mayoral campaign. welcome both of you. so what you make of the campaign launches so far? ~ ~ make of the campaign launches so far? , far? well, i think yesterday's tory launch wasn't _ far? well, i think yesterday's tory launch wasn't the _ far? well, i think yesterday's tory launch wasn't the most _ far? well, i think yesterday's tory launch wasn't the most slick i far? well, i think yesterday's tory launch wasn't the most slick and l launch wasn't the most slick and effective launch we have ever seen. i think if your key topline campaign is we have a plan and the other guys haven't and then you forget to bring an umbrella out in the rain it doesn't work very well.- an umbrella out in the rain it doesn't work very well. then you would be classed _ doesn't work very well. then you would be classed as _ doesn't work very well. then you would be classed as a _ doesn't work very well. then you would be classed as a wally i doesn't work very well. then you would be classed as a wally in i doesn't work very well. then you | would be classed as a wally in the filly met with brolly. it is filly met with brolly. it is not be ond filly met with brolly. it is not beyond the _ filly met with brolly. it is not beyond the wit _ filly met with brolly. it is not beyond the wit of _ filly met with brolly. it is not beyond the wit of man i filly met with brolly. it is not i beyond the wit of man to book a room inside and yet they chose not to and he looked very wet. the inside and yet they chose not to and he looked very wet.— inside and yet they chose not to and he looked very wet. the power of the rime of he looked very wet. the power of the prime of miss — he looked very wet. the power of the prime of miss daisy _ he looked very wet. the power of the prime of miss daisy got _ he looked very wet. the power of the prime of miss daisy got to choose i prime of miss daisy got to choose the time, — prime of miss daisy got to choose the time, the date and whole building — the time, the date and whole building where you can get any room you like _ building where you can get any room you like including a rather impressive press room that the taxpayer— impressive press room that the taxpayer use for which they didn't use _ taxpayer use for which they didn't use. he— taxpayer use for which they didn't use. ,., taxpayer use for which they didn't use, , ., ., ., " taxpayer use for which they didn't use. _, ., ., ~ , use. he said look i believe in the traditions of _ use. he said look i believe in the traditions of this _ use. he said look i believe in the traditions of this country. - use. he said look i believe in the traditions of this country. who i traditions of this country. who cares about the weather? yeah, but

then also you _ cares about the weather? yeah, but then also you don't _ cares about the weather? yeah, but then also you don't always - cares about the weather? yeah, but then also you don't always have i cares about the weather? yeah, but then also you don't always have the | then also you don't always have the conversation with the king before you announce to the public. you often _ you announce to the public. you often announce to the public and then make the journey to the king. sue council— then make the journey to the king. sue council to say we are doing traditional— sue council to say we are doing traditional stuff and then not follow — traditional stuff and then not follow tradition completely through. what will_ follow tradition completely through. what will be going on inside conservative hq today? obviously, we have seen the leaders out everywhere. have seen the leaders out everywhere-— have seen the leaders out everywhere. have seen the leaders out eve here. , ., ., ., ., everywhere. there is a lot going on. we have heard _ everywhere. there is a lot going on. we have heard of _ everywhere. there is a lot going on. we have heard of what _ everywhere. there is a lot going on. we have heard of what someone i everywhere. there is a lot going on. we have heard of what someone is. we have heard of what someone is going _ we have heard of what someone is going on— we have heard of what someone is going on because one of the biggest questions _ going on because one of the biggest questions we have all had is you have _ questions we have all had is you have just — questions we have all had is you have just had someone on the programme who doesn't even have a seat to— programme who doesn't even have a seat to fight yet. there is an eundil— seat to fight yet. there is an e—mail that has gone out to a series of people _ e—mail that has gone out to a series of people that have been approved to be candidates for selection, offering _ be candidates for selection, offering them a choice of seats to id offering them a choice of seats to go for~ _ offering them a choice of seats to go for~ so — offering them a choice of seats to go for. so there are some really serious — go for. so there are some really serious practical elements that the partym _ serious practical elements that the partym it— serious practical elements that the partym it is— serious practical elements that the party... it is sort of unthinkable to say— party... it is sort of unthinkable to say you — party... it is sort of unthinkable to say you were going into an election— to say you were going into an election with such a large number of constituencies that are up for grabs still. constituencies that are up for grabs still they— constituencies that are up for grabs still. they don't have a candidate. including — still. they don't have a candidate. including some safe tory seats for side welcome if you can call them

safe, let see what safe means any more. we had another load of mps announced today that even the party chairman did not know were going to be standing down. there are people that they were all asked to keep this news quiet. some were telling the chief whip, some time the prime minister. and then today we had other people who have caught their colleagues off guard and some of their staff members. so there is a lot of machinery, let alone thinking about the message to the public. there is some sort of housekeeping stuff is _ there is some sort of housekeeping stuff is going on as well and i'm sure _ stuff is going on as well and i'm sure plenty of people were having conversations with their partners and their— conversations with their partners and their families about the fact that, _ and their families about the fact that, sorry, that holiday we had planned — that, sorry, that holiday we had planned next week, half term is not going _ planned next week, half term is not going to _ planned next week, half term is not going to happen. sorry i'm not there for the _ going to happen. sorry i'm not there for the exams that you have got to the son— for the exams that you have got to the son or— for the exams that you have got to the son or daughter because everyone is an exam _ the son or daughter because everyone is an exam out now as well. so there is an exam out now as well. so there is an exam out now as well. so there is a lot— is an exam out now as well. so there is a lot of— is an exam out now as well. so there is a lot of care — is an exam out now as well. so there is a lot of care is going on at this point _ is a lot of care is going on at this oint. ~ ., , is a lot of care is going on at this oint. ~ . , ., , point. what will be going inside labour h0 _ point. what will be going inside labour hq was _ point. what will be going inside labour hq was yellow- point. what will be going inside labour hq was yellow well, i point. what will be going inside i labour hq was yellow well, there will be planning for a six—week campaign. they would have been expecting the campaign to start when it did —— not expecting it to start when it did all the evidence so far

is there pretty well prepared for it. they had a campaign video ready to go, they had a decent first day i think. but they will be trying to work out how are they going to grid the next six weeks in terms of what announcement they make, what visits are made. there we shadow cabinet ministers trying to get good photo ops, good speeches, remind people of the policies they have got. the whole point of the tory attack on them that they don't have a plan means they do have to demonstrate that they have a plan. there is a huge amount of policy they've got, to be fair, that they want to talk about again. and part of the next six weeks will be trying to dramatise that, get that across to the public and introduce keir starmer to the public. even though he has been in forfour years, so people know who is, frankly people haven't paid attention to in the act. and they're ready to listen to what he has got to say and potentially change theirjudgment of him. it is a really big six weeks for him. you work closely with boris

johnson. obviously he is not even a politician any more but what would he be doing now that would be different to what we see rishi sunak doing? i different to what we see rishi sunak doinu ? ., ~ , ~ doing? i mean, well, i kept thinking ifi had doing? i mean, well, i kept thinking ifi had been — doing? i mean, well, i kept thinking if i had been there _ doing? i mean, well, i kept thinking if i had been there i _ doing? i mean, well, i kept thinking if i had been there i feel _ doing? i mean, well, i kept thinking if i had been there i feel for - doing? i mean, well, i kept thinking if i had been there i feel for that i if i had been there i feel for that damning — if i had been there i feel for that damning street team because the moment— damning street team because the moment the rain started you could imagine _ moment the rain started you could imagine this sort of agonising do we run out _ imagine this sort of agonising do we run out with— imagine this sort of agonising do we run out with a brolly, do we not? what _ run out with a brolly, do we not? what do — run out with a brolly, do we not? what do we — run out with a brolly, do we not? what do we do? it is of seeing your child about — what do we do? it is of seeing your child about to fall over in some sports — child about to fall over in some sports they race or something and you are _ sports they race or something and you are going to pick them up. there is a sense _ you are going to pick them up. there is a sense of— you are going to pick them up. there is a sense of wanting to rescue the situation — is a sense of wanting to rescue the situation. boris would have handled it quite _ situation. boris would have handled it quite well actually. he would have _ it quite well actually. he would have made some off—the—cuff remark. he had _ have made some off—the—cuff remark. he had that _ have made some off—the—cuff remark. he had that ability to deal with situations. if we walked down the street— situations. if we walked down the street and — situations. if we walked down the street and someone shouted abuse at him, street and someone shouted abuse at him. he _ street and someone shouted abuse at him, he would just say call over i've him, he would just say call over we got— him, he would just say call over i've got your vote then clearly and carry— i've got your vote then clearly and carry on _ i've got your vote then clearly and carry on walking. there have been plenty— carry on walking. there have been plenty of— carry on walking. there have been plenty of other leaders who would have expected their team to have bundled _ have expected their team to have bundled them in a car and got them away— bundled them in a car and got them away from _ bundled them in a car and got them away from confrontation. so the reality— away from confrontation. so the reality is — away from confrontation. so the reality is that he was a very different _ reality is that he was a very different character. rishi sunak has a way—

different character. rishi sunak has a way of— different character. rishi sunak has a way of working. there is lots of talk that — a way of working. there is lots of talk that he — a way of working. there is lots of talk that he has previously micromanaged campaigns and he's very keen to _ micromanaged campaigns and he's very keen to have _ micromanaged campaigns and he's very keen to have a very firm hand in things — keen to have a very firm hand in things in— keen to have a very firm hand in things. in reality you can't actually— things. in reality you can't actually do that. you have got to trust _ actually do that. you have got to trust a _ actually do that. you have got to trust a team to do things.- actually do that. you have got to trust a team to do things. there was an awkward — trust a team to do things. there was an awkward moment, _ trust a team to do things. there was an awkward moment, nothing i trust a team to do things. there was an awkward moment, nothing to i trust a team to do things. there was an awkward moment, nothing to do | an awkward moment, nothing to do with policy but when rishi sunak was sitting down with welsh voters and said i looking forward to all the football? quite a long silence and then obviously somebody said wales haven't actually qualified for the euros. as i say, nothing to do with policy but do those things cut through? i policy but do those things cut throu . h? ~ , policy but do those things cut throuuh? ~' , .., policy but do those things cut throuuh? ~' , .. ., ., through? i think they can do and i think they can _ through? i think they can do and i think they can accumulate - through? i think they can do and i think they can accumulate as i through? i think they can do and i | think they can accumulate as well. so if you have one small gap in the course campaign... so if you have one small gap in the course campaign. . ._ course campaign... every leader is auoin to course campaign... every leader is going to have _ course campaign... every leader is going to have a — course campaign... every leader is going to have a gaffe. _ course campaign... every leader is going to have a gaffe. david i course campaign... every leader is i going to have a gaffe. david cameron famously forgot _ going to have a gaffe. david cameron famously forgot that _ going to have a gaffe. david cameron famously forgot that he _ going to have a gaffe. david cameron famously forgot that he was - going to have a gaffe. david cameron famously forgot that he was an i famously forgot that he was an aston villa supporter because in the moment— villa supporter because in the moment you just kind of... i�*m moment you 'ust kind of... i'm sor , moment you 'ust kind of... i'm sorry. no — moment you just kind of... i'm sorry. no one _ moment you just kind of... in sorry, no one forgets which football team they support! that is not credible. i team they support! that is not credible. ., ., , �*, credible. i would forget people's name. credible. i would forget people's name- i'm _ credible. i would forget people's name. i'm sorry, _ credible. i would forget people's name. i'm sorry, you _

credible. i would forget people's name. i'm sorry, you don't i credible. i would forget people's i name. i'm sorry, you don't believe that! it name. i'm sorry, you don't believe that! it was _ name. i'm sorry, you don't believe that! it was a _ name. i'm sorry, you don't believe that! it was a weird _ name. i'm sorry, you don't believe that! it was a weird moment. i that! it was a weird moment. everyone _ that! it was a weird moment. everyone was _ that! it was a weird moment. everyone was like _ that! it was a weird moment. everyone was like what - that! it was a weird moment. everyone was like what was l that! it was a weird moment. i everyone was like what was that about? — everyone was like what was that about? he — everyone was like what was that about? , ., ., ., , , about? he is not a villa supporter! the interesting _ about? he is not a villa supporter! the interesting thing _ about? he is not a villa supporter! the interesting thing with - about? he is not a villa supporter! the interesting thing with rishi - the interesting thing with rishi sunak— the interesting thing with rishi sunak is— the interesting thing with rishi sunak is he was at southampton last weekend, _ sunak is he was at southampton last weekend, he's talked about them a lot. but the nations of the uk do not necessarily support each other. so you _ not necessarily support each other. so you can — not necessarily support each other. so you can get lost a bit. you think well and _ so you can get lost a bit. you think well and the — so you can get lost a bit. you think well and the prime minister for the uk and actually in reality there are these _ uk and actually in reality there are these divisions between how the see things _ these divisions between how the see things i _ these divisions between how the see thins. ~' ., things. i think the danger with caffes is things. i think the danger with gaffes is if _ things. i think the danger with gaffes is if you _ things. i think the danger with gaffes is if you have _ things. i think the danger with gaffes is if you have a - things. i think the danger with gaffes is if you have a lot - things. i think the danger with gaffes is if you have a lot of i things. i think the danger with i gaffes is if you have a lot of them you start to get a reputation for them and the idea of a campaign where things go wrong and then they're going wrong again and going wrong again. you can get away with one or two but if you allow a narrative to build up that is not working, then it doesn't work. uk. working, then it doesn't work. 0k, thank ou working, then it doesn't work. 0k, thank you both _ working, then it doesn't work. 0k, thank you both very much. reform uk kicked off their campaign promising to stand in almost all constituencies across the country. their leader is richard tice, and let's begin by asking you about nigel farage your honorary president.

hello to you. let's start by asking you about nigel farage because he went to bed last night saying he was going to think about whether he would stand for reform. he woke up this morning and said he would

managers who say that the waste and bureaucracy is obscene. it is doable and any entity or business that says we aren't wasting money, they aren't competent, they are being negligent. what we've said today is very clearly that this election is about the data... you talked about it earlier when you completely destroyed the conservatives's useless track record on immigration when they have lied and lied and today we see a city larger than the

size of manchester net last year coming into the uk and that is pressuring public services, causing housing rents to go up 20% and is making everyone poorer. i housing rents to go up 20% and is making everyone poorer.- housing rents to go up 20% and is making everyone poorer. i know you want to talk — making everyone poorer. i know you want to talk about _ making everyone poorer. i know you want to talk about net _ making everyone poorer. i know you want to talk about net migration - making everyone poorer. i know you want to talk about net migration buti want to talk about net migration but i want to come back to the cuts you say you would make to public services. would you cut from the nhs? ., services. would you cut from the nhs? m0. n0, 0k. services. would you cut from the nhs? mo. no, 0k. would you cut the nhs? tic. no, 0k. would you cut the police? nhs? no. no, 0k. would you cut the police? there — nhs? no. no, 0k. would you cut the police? there are _ nhs? no. no, 0k. would you cut the police? there are two _ nhs? no. no, 0k. would you cut the police? there are two aspects - nhs? no. no, 0k. would you cut the police? there are two aspects to - nhs? no. no, 0k. would you cut the police? there are two aspects to the | police? there are two aspects to the ruestion. police? there are two aspects to the question- let _ police? there are two aspects to the question. let me _ police? there are two aspects to the question. let me ask _ police? there are two aspects to the question. let me ask the _ police? there are two aspects to the question. let me ask the question. | question. let me ask the question. on the question. let me ask the question. 0n the nhs. _ question. let me ask the question. 0n the ms. on — question. let me ask the question. on the nhs, on everything - question. let me ask the question. on the nhs, on everything we - question. let me ask the question. | on the nhs, on everything we have question. let me ask the question. i on the nhs, on everything we have to cut £5 on 100. in the nhs there is a lot of waste to be cut out but we have a plan that no other party has got to get to zero waiting lists in two years. got to get to zero waiting lists in two ears. ., . got to get to zero waiting lists in two years— two years. you are changing the subject it _ two years. you are changing the subject it is _ two years. you are changing the subject. it is about _ two years. you are changing the subject. it is about health i two years. you are changing the subject. it is about health care, | subject. it is about health care, ou've subject. it is about health care, you've asked — subject. it is about health care, you've asked me _ subject. it is about health care, you've asked me about - subject. it is about health care, you've asked me about waste l subject. it is about health care, | you've asked me about waste in subject. it is about health care, i you've asked me about waste in the nhs. we would invest it in savings. where else would you cut? we would send where else would you cut? we would spend more — where else would you cut? we would spend more on _ where else would you cut? we would

spend more on the _ where else would you cut? we would spend more on the nhs _ where else would you cut? we would spend more on the nhs and - where else would you cut? we would| spend more on the nhs and reforming health care than any other party. we are the only party with an ambition to get to zero waiting lists. the other parties are happy with them and that is a disgrace. thea;r other parties are happy with them and that is a disgrace.— and that is a disgrace. they don't sa the and that is a disgrace. they don't say they are _ and that is a disgrace. they don't say they are happy _ and that is a disgrace. they don't say they are happy with - and that is a disgrace. they don't say they are happy with them. i and that is a disgrace. they don't i say they are happy with them. they don't have a — say they are happy with them. they don't have a plan _ say they are happy with them. they don't have a plan but _ say they are happy with them. ina: don't have a plan but we say they are happy with them. fueg don't have a plan but we do. say they are happy with them. they don't have a plan but we do. would i don't have a plan but we do. would ou cut don't have a plan but we do. would you cut the — don't have a plan but we do. would you cut the police? _ don't have a plan but we do. would you cut the police? no, _ don't have a plan but we do. would you cut the police? no, we - don't have a plan but we do. would you cut the police? no, we are i you cut the police? no, we are investing _ you cut the police? no, we are investing more _ you cut the police? no, we are investing more in _ you cut the police? no, we are investing more in the - you cut the police? no, we are investing more in the police. i you cut the police? no, we are l investing more in the police. so, 0k, let investing more in the police. so, 0k. let me _ investing more in the police. so, 0k. let me go — investing more in the police. so, ok, let me go through? would you cut prison services? we ok, let me go through? would you cut prison services?— prison services? we would invest in the services- _ prison services? we would invest in the services- i'm — prison services? we would invest in the services. i'm trying _ prison services? we would invest in the services. i'm trying to _ prison services? we would invest in the services. i'm trying to find i prison services? we would invest in the services. i'm trying to find out | the services. i'm trying to find out where the waste _ the services. i'm trying to find out where the waste is. _ the services. i'm trying to find out where the waste is. the _ the services. i'm trying to find out where the waste is. the waste i the services. i'm trying to find out where the waste is. the waste is i where the waste is. the waste is everywhere. _ where the waste is. the waste is everywhere. i'm _ where the waste is. the waste is everywhere, i'm contacted i where the waste is. the waste is everywhere, i'm contacted by i where the waste is. the waste is i everywhere, i'm contacted by people in the police. you everywhere, i'm contacted by people in the police-— in the police. you have said you won't cut _ in the police. you have said you won't cut it- _ in the police. you have said you won't cut it. the _ in the police. you have said you won't cut it. the problem i in the police. you have said you won't cut it. the problem with l in the police. you have said you i won't cut it. the problem with the government _ won't cut it. the problem with the government and _ won't cut it. the problem with the government and civil _ won't cut it. the problem with the government and civil service, i won't cut it. the problem with the | government and civil service, they have no idea how to run a business properly. you invest in the front line services out on the front. with the police, 40,000 more people on the police, 40,000 more people on the beat, on the streets, preventing crime and catching criminals. that's the way to have a lawful society, zero tolerance, as opposed to a lawless society.—

zero tolerance, as opposed to a lawless society. would you cut the schools budget? _ lawless society. would you cut the schools budget? you _ lawless society. would you cut the schools budget? you have - lawless society. would you cut the schools budget? you have to i lawless society. would you cut the schools budget? you have to cut i lawless society. would you cut the i schools budget? you have to cut out waste but in — schools budget? you have to cut out waste but in schools _ schools budget? you have to cut out waste but in schools we _ schools budget? you have to cut out waste but in schools we would i schools budget? you have to cut out| waste but in schools we would invest more. , , , waste but in schools we would invest more. , my ,., waste but in schools we would invest more.i , , ,., ., ., waste but in schools we would invest more.i , ., ., more. just say yes or no, would you cut the schools _ more. just say yes or no, would you cut the schools budget? _ more. just say yes or no, would you cut the schools budget? it - more. just say yes or no, would you cut the schools budget? it isn't i more. just say yes or no, would you cut the schools budget? it isn't a i cut the schools budget? it isn't a es or no cut the schools budget? it isn't a yes or no question. _ cut the schools budget? it isn't a yes or no question. you - cut the schools budget? it isn't a yes or no question. you cut i cut the schools budget? it isn't a yes or no question. you cut out | cut the schools budget? it isn't a i yes or no question. you cut out the waste and you invest savings in better areas, waste and you invest savings in betterareas, in waste and you invest savings in better areas, in growth, waste and you invest savings in betterareas, in growth, in waste and you invest savings in better areas, in growth, in making work pay. in schools for example, we say that student loans should have no interest whatsoever. students have been ripped off at too many universities are taking too many students, especially international students, especially international students, doing bad degrees that aren't value for money. we have to stop wasting taxpayer cash in every area, invest it properly. xyour stop wasting taxpayer cash in every area, invest it properly.— area, invest it properly. your tag line is vote _ area, invest it properly. your tag line is vote reformat, _ area, invest it properly. your tag line is vote reformat, get - area, invest it properly. your tag line is vote reformat, get me - area, invest it properly. your tag i line is vote reformat, get me form. how many seats do you think you are going to win? —— vote reform. the going to win? -- vote reform. the more peeple _ going to win? —— vote reform. ire more people who going to win? —— vote reform. iue more people who vote going to win? —— vote reform. ins: more people who vote for us, the better. ., . , more people who vote for us, the better._ immigration | more people who vote for us, the | better._ immigration is better. how many? immigration is affectin: better. how many? immigration is affecting our _ better. how many? immigration is affecting our services _ better. how many? immigration is affecting our services and - better. how many? immigration is affecting our services and quality | affecting our services and quality of life, making people poorer and then more people will say that only reform uk have a credible plan to

reform immigration and stop the boats and that's what we need to talk about in the immigration election. ., , ., talk about in the immigration election. ., ., , election. one of your candidates in kent is a fortune-teller. _ election. one of your candidates in kent is a fortune-teller. she's - election. one of your candidates in kent is a fortune-teller. she's a i kent is a fortune-teller. she's a lot better _ kent is a fortune-teller. she's a lot better at _ kent is a fortune-teller. she's a lot better at forecasting - kent is a fortune-teller. she's a lot better at forecasting than i kent is a fortune-teller. she's a | lot better at forecasting than the treasury and bank of england. how man does treasury and bank of england. how many does she _ treasury and bank of england. how many does she think you are going to good question, i'll ask her. nice to see you. for months, newsnight has been investigating patient safety concerns at an nhs trust where police are investigating 105 cases of alleged medical negligence. tonight the story of a surgeon who realised when driving home after work that he'd left two items inside a patient�*s stomach. joe pike has the story. the services have declined dramatically over the years. eight years ago, tom hadrys was in hospital, waking up from hernia surgery, when he got a shock he'd never forget. i was in recovery. i was coming to, i know i was coming to, i was conscious,

and i heard who must have been the surgeon whispering in my ear. he said, "i'm terribly sorry," he says, "but we've made..." i think he said, "we've made a mistake." it was only after leaving the hospital for the day that the surgeon realised he'd left a specimen bag inside tom's stomach as well of a chunk he'd removed from tom's bowel. he turned his car round and drove back to the hospital and come up to me and said "we've got to go back to surgery." an hour and 45 minutes after the first operation ended, the second one began, to retrieve the bag and the section of bowel. the incident at the royal sussex hospital in brighton in 2016 was classed as a "never event." it should not have happened and led to a serious incident investigation and the trust says, changes in practice for all surgeons. but the surgeon in question

carried on operating and is still working at the trust. this particular one here, this is the one that i had a lot of trouble with healing up over a period of time. it is the one that was very deep and weeps a lot. tom hadrys still has the scars of that botched operation. he received a £15,000 settlement and an apology, but says he's still living with the impact his body. you believe that you're still suffering because of those...? i am still suffering. there's no doubt, no doubt whatsoever that i'm suffering. it's affected me. i can't actually, because i've got a weak abdomen now, i can't really lift anything heavy. newsnight has now uncovered evidence that in later years, concerns were repeatedly raised about the surgeon. in the following years

the surgeon was appointed to the consultant on call rota, against the advice of some colleagues who didn't think he was sufficiently qualified. during a discussion about rota changes, the director of operations wrote to the director of surgery regarding "concerns about the competence of..." the surgeon. both the general medical council and care quality commission contacted the trust following concerns about the surgeon. in both cases, the trust told us the bodies concluded there was no case to answer and no further action required. junior doctors raised a number of general patient safety concerns with the chief executive and chief medical officer, including about this doctor. and in 2020, trainee surgeons were withdrawn from this department. bbc newsnight understands this is the only teaching hospital in the uk not to have these surgical trainees. the trust says this was connected to the history of difficult relationships within teams and not related to safety concerns. university hospitals sussex says

the work of their surgery teams are continuously and closely monitored, both internally and externally, and whenever our care falls short of our height standards, we take immediate action to learn and improve. the number of families with complaints about surgery at the trust seems to be growing. sisters annie and julie are shocked at how their brother, stephen coles, was treated in 2021. he had brain surgery to treat a benign tumour. the operation lasted 13 hours and they don't feel the hospital were honest about how it went. we had a phone call after the operation just to say that the surgery had been longer than expected and that as a result, stephen was going to be kept under sedation and ventilated. but that was all we were told. we weren't told whether it was a success or whether anything was not successful. and then we never had any contact

from that surgeon ever again. a consultant should follow—up what's happening to their patient throughout their care. i accept not every single day, but there should be somebody that can be contacted via the staff. and it didn't seem like that happened at all. after the surgery, stephen was unable to eat and speak. the state he was in when he saw him after the surgery wasjust shocking and upsetting. stephen wasn't given a tracheostomy, which the bbc has been told is the appropriate procedure in these circumstances. but his family are most angry about what happened when he was moved to a general ward at worthing hospital, where they say his complex needs weren't met. he fell out of bed three times and developed pneumonia. the last two months of his life were just harrowing. you know, i've never witnessed anything quite so awful.

and you think that was partly due to the care?