itv. there will be debates, but i could debate the prime minister once or 100 times, i know what he is going to say, he is going to stand there and say everything is fine, the cost of living crisis is over, the nhs is brilliant, nobody is struggling. we hear that every week at prime minister's questions, we have that debate. i want to talk directly to voters about what labour is offering and why this is an election which is all about change. keir starmer speaking in glasgow. todayis keir starmer speaking in glasgow. today is the last day for bills to pass before the dissolution of parliament. that conservative promise made in 2019 to abolish no faulty evictions now we understand will not happen, there is not enough time to get it through parliament before mps break for that general

election. let's get the latest from our correspondent. tom, good to have you with us. your reaction that we understand that bill will not pass. it has been long promised but it seems it will not happen before the election. i seems it will not happen before the election. ~ , ., , ., seems it will not happen before the election. ~ , ., ., election. i think it is a bit of a farce actually. _ election. i think it is a bit of a farce actually. this _ election. i think it is a bit of a farce actually. this promise i election. i think it is a bit of a | farce actually. this promise to election. i think it is a bit of a - farce actually. this promise to end no—fault evictions was made in 2019. to explain what that is, it means a landlord can evict a tenant without giving a reason and they have to be get out in two months' notice. that affects nearly 100,000 people directly as a result since that promise was first made. we as campaign group have been pushing for this to be delivered on for the last five years. it has survived four prime ministers and was dropped by liz truss and then picks back up

again by her. the bill was introduced in may 2023 so more than a year ago now, ample time to go through parliament. it has been delayed by a backbench rebellion. there is now no time to pass it. there is now no time to pass it. there absolutely has been time to pass it though. it is deeply disappointing. it pass it though. it is deeply disappointing.— pass it though. it is deeply disauointina. , ., ., , disappointing. it is not the only bill that won't _ disappointing. it is not the only bill that won't get _ disappointing. it is not the only bill that won't get past. - disappointing. it is not the only bill that won't get past. rishi . bill that won't get past. rishi sunak says he is really disappointed too that the smoking ban did not get through. there are a number that will happen, we were talking about the bill to exonerate x postmasters. that will happen. particularly that leasehold reform bill. ithink that will happen. particularly that leasehold reform bill. i think you were telling our team that it feels like this has been a question of priority leasehold reform or renters reform? i priority leasehold reform or renters reform? ~ ., , �*

reform? i think that is right. but i think it is worth _ reform? i think that is right. but i think it is worth saying _ reform? i think that is right. but i think it is worth saying that - reform? i think that is right. but i think it is worth saying that the i think it is worth saying that the prime minister chose to have the election now, it is not something that was forced upon him and it is not something that was set out before. this is a decision that has been taken, implementing some of these comedies that were in the 29 manifesto. they were talked about as key pieces of legislation and so it wasn't that it had to be like this. i think that you are right, it speaks of the priorities of the government. 15 speaks of the priorities of the government-— speaks of the priorities of the covernment. , ., ., ., government. is it fair to say that this predominantly _ government. is it fair to say that this predominantly affects - government. is it fair to say that i this predominantly affects young people? they are trying to drum up support for their election campaign, making certain promises to voters ahead of that date. what will people who are directly affected by this bill going through, what will they make of politicians and the promises they may make now? there is a sense

that you can say what you want, you don't have to deliver. it is obviously. _ don't have to deliver. it is obviously, your _ don't have to deliver. it is obviously, your viewers i don't have to deliver. it 3 obviously, your viewers won't be surprised, i think i would just push back against that. it is notjust young people, you are increasingly seeing families living in the private rental sector, people in their 30s, 40s, 50s, never having got onto the housing ladder. they deserve security in their homes as well. it will be very interesting to see if the government say anything on this today. this was in the 2019 manifesto, i suppose they could just copy and paste that line and put it in the next manifesto. white mac that was going to be my next point. that was going to be my next point. i assume you would like to see it in a manifesto of any party.—

a manifesto of any party. yes. we have been — a manifesto of any party. yes. we have been very — a manifesto of any party. yes. we have been very clear. _ a manifesto of any party. yes. we have been very clear. the - a manifesto of any party. yes. we have been very clear. the bill - a manifesto of any party. yes. we have been very clear. the bill had | have been very clear. the bill had some good things but it wasn't going to completely change the game and that was because it had been watered down by a concessions to landlord mps. we need to see a renters reform bill committed to by all parties that goes right to the heart of the crisis in private rented. to deliver security for renters. that means abolishing loopholes such as extortionate rent rises. we will be looking very closely at what the party sets out in the coming weeks. and we have to hope that whoever wins this election does follow up on the promises that they make. thank ou. the promises that they make. thank yon campaign _ the promises that they make. thank you. campaign manager— the promises that they make. thank you. campaign manager at - the promises that they make. thank you. campaign manager at the - the promises that they make. thank you. campaign manager at the renters reform coalition. some of those bills will not get past ahead of the break for the mps. the last day for that possibly to happen. 0ne

break for the mps. the last day for that possibly to happen. one thing that possibly to happen. one thing that has got through it is the bill that has got through it is the bill that will get royal assent today, later today. they will exonerate sub—postmasters or former sub—postmasters or former sub—postmaster is involved in the horizon it scandal. today is day three of the evidence being given by the former chief executive of the post office, paula vennells. edward henry casey told us she was living in a cloud of denial. she tried to respond to the inquiry to the best of her ability. following the inquiry, our reporter is there for us. just breaking, looking at the pictures, take us through what we have heard this morning. there were some pretty tough questions and it was quite difficult to watch at some points. was quite difficult to watch at some oints. , , . ,

points. there were, essentially, these victimss _ points. there were, essentially, these victimss lawyers - points. there were, essentially, these victimss lawyers some - points. there were, essentially, l these victimss lawyers some luck with edward henry's first question. there were so many faults in the road, and you always chose the wrong one, didn't you? they are there alongside their clients, the victims of this scandal. he put it to her that she wasn't being forthright about the timeline and that timeline of course is key to understanding how the biggest injustice in uk history could possibly have happened. he is trying to understand exactly what she knew about remote access and the fact that fujitsu employees were able to access the sub—postmaster accounts without them even knowing. also, what she knew about garethjenkins, a key witness

for post office and an employee for fujitsu who made a false statement in court. he was an unreliable witness. take a listen to one of those exchanges.— witness. take a listen to one of those exchanaes. ., . , , , those exchanges. you are responsible for our those exchanges. you are responsible for your own — those exchanges. you are responsible for your own downfall, _ those exchanges. you are responsible for your own downfall, aren't - those exchanges. you are responsible for your own downfall, aren't you? - for your own downfall, aren't you? |, for your own downfall, aren't you? i. from _ for your own downfall, aren't you? i. from when — for your own downfall, aren't you? i, from when the court of appeal past itsjudgment, i lost all of i, from when the court of appeal past its judgment, i lost all of the employment that i have had and, since that time, i have only worked on this inquiry. it has been really important to me to do what i didn't, or was unable to do at the time i was chief executive, and i have worked for the last three years and prioritise this above anything else.

for the last year it has probably been a full—time job. and it is for the last year it has probably been a full—timejob. and it is my commitment, i have avoided talking to the press, perhaps to my own detriment. all the way through i have put this first. sign might i suggest to you that you still continue to live in a cloud of denial. ., , continue to live in a cloud of denial. . , . , �* ., , denial. edward henry wasn't the only la er for denial. edward henry wasn't the only lawyer for the _ denial. edward henry wasn't the only lawyer for the victims _ denial. edward henry wasn't the only lawyer for the victims asking - lawyer for the victims asking questions today. she wasn't spared any reprieve after that exchange and in fact when her legacy, her reputation, her intentions at the post office were questioned, she broke down in tears once again. listen to this.— listen to this. the risk was too ureat, listen to this. the risk was too great. looking _ listen to this. the risk was too great, looking under— listen to this. the risk was too great, looking under that - listen to this. the risk was too great, looking under that rock| listen to this. the risk was too . great, looking under that rock you are going — great, looking under that rock you are going to find a problem that is going _ are going to find a problem that is going to _ are going to find a problem that is going to devastate the post office and ruined it. you couldn't let that happen, _ and ruined it. you couldn't let that happen, could you? |

and ruined it. you couldn't let that happen, could you?— happen, could you? i love to the post office, _ happen, could you? i love to the post office. i _ happen, could you? i love to the post office, i gave _ happen, could you? i love to the post office, i gave it... - i worked... as hard as i possibly could to deliver... the best post office for the uk. it would have been wonderful to have 30,000 post office branches, that would have been the best outcome ever. to have more post offices in more communities. what i failed to do, and i have made this clear

previously, i did not recognise the, and it has been discussed across the inquiry, the imbalance of power between the institution and the individual. i let these people down. the horizon they were falsely convicted of theft

or false accounting. many others waiting to be exonerated. scottish parliament passed its own emergency law last week. there is still no timetables on when those convictions would be quashed. there are also those who have already lost their own appeals. they are not covered by this law. this miscarriage of justice, this fight is not over. we will be back with you throughout the day. let's return to the general election. campaigning continuing on this, day two on the general election campaign. we have had rishi sunak in northern ireland, keir starmer in glasgow and we know that ed davey, the leader of the liberal democrats, has been in eastbourne. he has been talking about health care and access to gps. our

political correspondent is in eastbourne. it really was a focus on health and access to a doctor that ed davey was talking about voters this morning.

it is so good to be here in eastbourne. the liberal democrats are bringing change to eastbourne. particularly across the south of england where everybody knows now that if you want to beat the conservatives, you vote liberal democrat. people want the conservatives out. they have made such a mess of our country on the economy, health service, environment, things like sewage. we are determined to beat as many conservative mps as we possibly can. we have put some more money in the metre, so we can talk to you! we are 48 hours into this campaign and they are already laying out what they want voters to focus on. tell us more about what ed davey was saying this morning. ed

more about what ed davey was saying this morning-— this morning. ed davey is always t in: to this morning. ed davey is always trying to change _ this morning. ed davey is always trying to change line _ this morning. ed davey is always trying to change line that - this morning. ed davey is always trying to change line that we - this morning. ed davey is alwaysl trying to change line that we have been hearing from sir keir starmer, but he is targeting that as a specific crop of seats with the lib dems are essentially the challenge are parties to the tories. he says he has his eyes on about 80 seats and he is confident he can take quite a few of them of the tories. he is saying to the tories in these particular areas, the blue wall, the blue coast, places like eastbourne and lewes, he is saying, if you want the best chance of kicking out the tories, which he thinks many people are feeling inclined to do, vote lib dem. it is interesting that he has chosen to fan out to the specific states first unlike keir starmer and rishi sunak you have gone across the uk in the past 48 hours, ed davey is focusing on the seats that he thinks

his party has the best chance of winning. the lib dems only have 15 mps, they have gained four more in by—elections in the recent months, they are down from 57 in 2010, before they were pretty badly knocked off course by having been in the coalition. ed davey wants to focus on the nhs, his message today is about gps, recruiting 8,000 more. he says he wants to enshrine a legal rights for everyone to see a gp within seven days. he thinks his messages are strong on the nhs, he wants to focus on cost of living and sewage, water companies pumping sewage, water companies pumping sewage into rivers and seas. he also didn't really want to entertain any talk of whether he would be prepared

to go into coalition with labour should that situation arise. he has been categorical and he was again when i spoke to him, he ruled out any sort of deals with the tories. also interestingly he is making his case that he should be heard in the tv debates, saying he wants all the party leaders to have their chance now that there is some discussion about what format the television debates will take on this election campaign. sir ed davey insisting that he does want the chance to be heard alongside the other party leaders, saying it is time for people to hear fresh voices and accusing the tories and labour of running scared.— accusing the tories and labour of running scared. journalists around the country _ running scared. journalists around the country are — running scared. journalists around the country are glad _ running scared. journalists around the country are glad this - running scared. journalists around the country are glad this general | the country are glad this general election campaign will be injuly, you get to be on the beach in the sunshine! let's talk about some of theissues sunshine! let's talk about some of the issues and what young people

want out of this election. kids are happy with us. let's talk about where people are finding about this. we are in day two of the campaign, so much information about what the party stand for, what they want people to vote for, where our younger people particularly finding their news right now?— younger people particularly finding their news right now? everybody has different habits _ their news right now? everybody has different habits about _ their news right now? everybody has different habits about where - their news right now? everybody has different habits about where they - different habits about where they find news and jhansi, people different habits about where they find news anthansi, people born from 1997 to 2012 are used to have an tailored to use at their fingertips, compared to other generations which would have had to find news on television, or via a newspaper. things are filtered into one spot where there is entertainment, entertainment, in connection with friends all in one space. 50 connection with friends all in one sace. connection with friends all in one space. , ., connection with friends all in one sace. , ., ., .,

space. so it is not about them going riaht space. so it is not about them going ri . ht to space. so it is not about them going right to seek— space. so it is not about them going right to seek news. _ space. so it is not about them going right to seek news. it _ space. so it is not about them going right to seek news. it is _ space. so it is not about them going right to seek news. it is served - space. so it is not about them going right to seek news. it is served up i right to seek news. it is served up to them. right to seek news. it is served up to them- it _ right to seek news. it is served up to them- it is _ right to seek news. it is served up to them. it is the _ right to seek news. it is served up to them. it is the complicated - right to seek news. it is served up i to them. it is the complicated media consumption that we have now days, and younger people are used to it. they are finding their news in various places, podcast, television, online, especially on social media where they don't have to look and find it, but also in places like whatsapp or texting, that is the weather find whatsapp or texting, that is the weatherfind news, and sometimes through their favourite influencers as well, he may be saying something to do with politics but in an indirect way. it to do with politics but in an indirect way.— to do with politics but in an indirect way. it is different to --eole indirect way. it is different to people who _ indirect way. it is different to people who are _ indirect way. it is different to people who are a _ indirect way. it is different to people who are a bit - indirect way. it is different to people who are a bit older. i indirect way. it is different to - people who are a bit older. looking at some of the search is on bbc website, people writing in very specific questions in relation to themselves. fin specific questions in relation to themselves-— specific questions in relation to themselves. �* �* ,, themselves. on the bbc tick-tock accounts, people _ themselves. on the bbc tick-tock accounts, people have _ themselves. on the bbc tick-tock accounts, people have been - themselves. on the bbc tick-tockl accounts, people have been asking questions about if you are on holiday how do you vote, people have

been asking how they register, other people suggesting their disappointment is that it wasn't until later in the year because then the good folks! young people are very interested in the election. but yes, different ways of finding their news, i suppose. yes, different ways of finding their news. i suppose-— yes, different ways of finding their news, i suppose. what about people who are potentially _ news, i suppose. what about people who are potentially not _ news, i suppose. what about people who are potentially not interested i who are potentially not interested in this at all. this is early days, six weeks still to go. what about people at this stage he just say tell me about when i need to vote. that will be a lot of people, that isn't necessarily about age. a lot of people will be waiting for the manifesto is to come out and see what issues will affect them. that is probably how they will make their decisions. super early days now, but there is a general buzz on social media through the generation z audience. when the worst possible talk of conscription, that affected

young people, that would have affected them directly so there was affected them directly so there was a lot more buzz, but i think it is early days so we have to wait and see what the parties have to say for the specific demographics. the s - ecific the specific demographics. the specific issues _ the specific demographics. the specific issues as well, i suppose. every time we have a general election the media landscape is changed, new sources of news and information. there are people choosing to gather information from? i did a poll on instagram yesterday and got a range of answers. some people say they look at traditional media to verify whether or not things are true. other people said to just use social media blogs or instagram pages, they often screenshot or create their own news content based off traditional media. other people are still looking at places like twitter. they have public figures that they trust. find public figures that they trust. and that same technology is changing how people gather news, so we are able

to hear from people gather news, so we are able to hearfrom more places, hearfrom more people because they have a camera on their phone and can share their opinion from all over the world. ,, . ., , their opinion from all over the world. ,, . . , ., . world. especially from water in areas where — world. especially from water in areas where people _ world. especially from water in areas where people are - world. especially from water in areas where people are not. world. especially from water in - areas where people are not unable to come in, people are able to use their camera phones and document their camera phones and document their own life, which a lot of younger people on social media have gone to and said, goodness, this is �*s life, saying it will directly buy them. it 's life, saying it will directly buy them. , ,, ,, ~ them. it focuses people because like minds of the — them. it focuses people because like minds of the issues. _ them. it focuses people because like minds of the issues. exactly. - minds of the issues. exactly. janelle, so good to talk to you. janelle, so good to talk to you. janelle is also the host of reliable source, a bbc news podcast. it is called reliable source and you can find it on bbc science. —— ppc

sounds. let's speak to the assistant producer at the democracy box. we were talking about maybe what dominantly younger people wants. we are on day two of this election campaign, whatare are on day two of this election campaign, what are the key issue is going to be in this election? we have going to be in this election? - have discovered two massive issues in the democratic landscape, firstly that there is a huge democratic knowledge gap, so a lot of young people, all people, everyone in between, we are not taught about this in schools, which means when it comes to the second issue, the frenzy that happens every time there is a general election, a lot of people in the country are sat not knowing who to vote for, what is a vote, how do i vote, government, parliament, all of these terms that we don't understand. at the democracy box we have a new blame, no shame in theory around it, that

it is not your fault if you don't understand these things, we are trying to fill that knowledge gap with the help of the electoral commission. we were just talking about where to find this information. i would urge people to look to the electoral commission for all of their information about where to how vote, how do i vote, what is a postal vote? they are not associated with any party. it is neutral, safe information that people can find out all about the election from. b, people can find out all about the election from.— election from. a lot of people watchin: election from. a lot of people watching this _ election from. a lot of people watching this might _ election from. a lot of people watching this might be - election from. a lot of people i watching this might be reassured that young people are actively engaged, because there is a tendency for us to think that young people don't care about politics. looking at some things that people are googling here, how do i vote on holiday, how do i get a postal vote, am i registered to vote, what constituency am i in? really important, fundamental questions

that people need to understand is to make sure they are eligible and register to vote before the 4th of july? register to vote before the 4th of jul ? ., , ., , . , register to vote before the 4th of jul? ., , . , ., july? young people really care. you onl have july? young people really care. you only have to — july? young people really care. you only have to look— july? young people really care. you only have to look at _ july? young people really care. you only have to look at the _ july? young people really care. you only have to look at the levels - july? young people really care. you only have to look at the levels of i only have to look at the levels of activism within young people to show that we really care. we are not taught about this stuff in school. democracy is for every day, notjust putting a mark on the ballot box. democracy is talking to your friends about what you care about, getting stuck into the community, knowing that your councillors and mps work for you, so if you're not happy with what they are doing you can contact them. we have a number of channels on the democracy box, we have a tech talk, and instagram, a podcast that is really good. it is everything you wanted to know about democracy but were too scared to ask. we have seen that issue amongst communities and

it is age wide, notjust young people feeling silly for not knowing this stuff, it is people from 18 to 108 macro. everybody feels this level of shame for not understanding. it is not yourfault. we are there to help and bridge that knowledge gap. that is why we think the bbc and the democracy box and electoral commission should all be working together to help close that knowledge gap so we can be a true democratic society and use our democratic society and use our democratic voice all year round. knowledge is power is the message and all of that. talk about fake news. the idea that every election that comes around there are more ways than ever to get information, but not all of it is true. how do you try to combat that? it is really difficult in an _ you try to combat that? it is really difficult in an age _ you try to combat that? it is really difficult in an age when _ you try to combat that? it is really difficult in an age when we - you try to combat that? it is really difficult in an age when we are - difficult in an age when we are being bombarded with messages from left, right and centre across so many platforms. it is difficult to

know the agenda. that is why i would always urge people to go through the electoral commission as a neutral source of information. they are nonpartisan, not affiliated with any party, so i would always recommend them. at the democracy box we are partnered with them so all of the information that goes out from us is verified by them. in terms of where to find information, there are a couple of places that i would direct people to go to. there are a couple of really useful website. who can i go for will give you —— who can i vote four is a really useful website, and where do i vote which is another websites that will show you where the polling stations are. but you have to remember to register to vote, you can'tjust turn up. you need your voter id, as well.-

need your voter id, as well. great to have you _ need your voter id, as well. great to have you with _ need your voter id, as well. great to have you with us _ need your voter id, as well. great to have you with us on _ need your voter id, as well. great to have you with us on the - to have you with us on the programme. we were done with the liberal democrats on the south coast of england just a short while ago. let's take you up to the north—west coast of england where roman bridge is by the seaside in lancashire in the new constituency of blackpool north and fleetwood, which would have been a marginal conservative seat at the 2019 election. first of all, i will get you to explain why it is a new constituency, this is all to do with changes in the boundaries.— all to do with changes in the boundaries. ., �* , all to do with changes in the boundaries. . �* , . , boundaries. that's right. there was i reviewed boundaries. that's right. there was i reviewed to _ boundaries. that's right. there was i reviewed to equalise _ boundaries. that's right. there was i reviewed to equalise out - boundaries. that's right. there was i reviewed to equalise out some i boundaries. that's right. there was i reviewed to equalise out some of| i reviewed to equalise out some of the constituencies, that meant shuffling around of the constituency boundaries. in this case the constituency are slightly shunted north, so it now takes in the far northern tip of the resort of blackpool, through cleveleys, which

is where i am at the moment. it now takes in further north from where i am now, the historicalfishing town of fleetwood, probably best known as the home of fishermans friends lozenges. if you look at the electoral map it is a bellwether constituency. blackpool north has existed in one form or another over several elections and since 1979 the constituency whoever has won an blackpool north has gone on to take downing street, which makes it an interesting watch for who might end “p interesting watch for who might end up in numberten. interesting watch for who might end up in number ten. certainly, this will be a target seat for labour and the general election. they need a swing of around 10% to take this from the conservatives. looking at the picture nationally, labour would lead a swing of 12.5%. they need to win in places like blackpool north

and fleetwood if they are to take a majority at the general election. looking at the issues that affect people around here, some of them are universal. particularly for example cost of living. that is particularly acute in some part of this concentric because it takes in parts of blackpool, which is largely a hospitality based economy and tends to have low wages, so issues around the cost of living affect areas like that particularly. also particular to blackpool they have issues there are around housing, so that is a particular issue. further north into fleetwood, issues around economic development and opportunity are fell particularly shortly there. i was here about three weeks ago, which is when the blackpool south by—election took place. labour took that from the conservatives with a 26 point win. but that was a by—election

rather than general election. labour will pointed out to say they have momentum behind them when it comes to this part of the world. by, lot momentum behind them when it comes to this part of the world.— to this part of the world. a lot of --eole to this part of the world. a lot of people watching _ to this part of the world. a lot of people watching this _ to this part of the world. a lot of people watching this might - to this part of the world. a lot of people watching this might feel| to this part of the world. a lot of. people watching this might feel that they know a lot about the area where you are because a lot of people were watching that by—election were labour one. one issue that kept popping up then was the issue about levelling up. a lot of people feel that didn't happen, despite the promises. that didn't happen, despite the romises. , ~ that didn't happen, despite the romises. , ,, . that didn't happen, despite the romises. , ~ . , , promises. yes. i think that is very true. promises. yes. i think that is very true- certainly _ promises. yes. i think that is very true. certainly you _ promises. yes. i think that is very true. certainly you can see that i true. certainly you can see that there has been money spent in blackpool. if you could on the seafront you can see investment in the sea defences and so on, but i think if you talk to people who live around blackpool there was a sense that some people felt that the money have been spent on the touristy areas rather than away from the seafront and the areas affecting the

rest of the time. there have been issues of deprivation which have been well documented around blackpool. if you go to somewhere like fleetwood they would feel that they have missed out on the levelling up money that was promised for the coast. there is a feeling that people have not seen a benefit from the levelling up agenda that has been promoted by the conservatives over the last few years. if you are a* wars fan you might recognise some of the scenery because it has appeared in star wars and tour the disney plus series, as well. ., ~ and tour the disney plus series, as well. . ,, , ., ., . , , well. thank you, rowan. it is 'ust da two, well. thank you, rowan. it is 'ust day two. there i well. thank you, rowan. it is 'ust day two, there are i well. thank you, rowan. it is 'ust day two, there are six * well. thank you, rowan. it is 'ust day two, there are six weeks i well. thank you, rowan. it isjust day two, there are six weeks for. day two, there are six weeks for everyone to get through before the vote on the 4th ofjuly. the other story we are following apart from the campaigning that is under way is the campaigning that is under way is the latest evidence that has been given by paula vennells. she has

been facing more tough questioning today but the barristers representing a number of sub—postmasters. this is all related to the faulty horizon it system. earlier today, to the faulty horizon it system. earliertoday, qc to the faulty horizon it system. earlier today, qc said that she was living in a cloud of denial and she said she was trying to respond to the questions to the best of her ability. let's listen to some more of that evidence. it ability. let's listen to some more of that evidence.— of that evidence. it was very difficult to — of that evidence. it was very difficult to get _ of that evidence. it was very difficult to get the _ of that evidence. it was very difficult to get the unions i of that evidence. it was very difficult to get the unions to | of that evidence. it was very - difficult to get the unions to buy into anything. i don't recall any conversations with either of the cw you about them buying into horizon. but you wouldn't have wanted them to start a _ but you wouldn't have wanted them to start a dispute about horizon, would you? _ start a dispute about horizon, would you? |_

start a dispute about horizon, would ou? ., start a dispute about horizon, would ou? . ., . ., you? i had no influence over whether those unions — you? i had no influence over whether those unions would _ you? i had no influence over whether those unions would have _ you? i had no influence over whether those unions would have wanted - those unions would have wanted disputes or not? it is those unions would have wanted disputes or not?— disputes or not? it is correct to sa that disputes or not? it is correct to say that the — disputes or not? it is correct to say that the nsf _ disputes or not? it is correct to say that the nsf p, _ disputes or not? it is correct to say that the nsf p, the - disputes or not? it is correct to say that the nsf p, the cw - disputes or not? it is correct to j say that the nsf p, the cw and disputes or not? it is correct to - say that the nsf p, the cw and the royal— say that the nsf p, the cw and the royal mail— say that the nsf p, the cw and the royal mail group had facilities and offices _ royal mail group had facilities and offices within the post office main building _ offices within the post office main building for them to conduct business with the post office. is that something you remember? ami business with the post office. is that something you remember? am i to be in the case — that something you remember? am i to be in the case with _ that something you remember? am i to be in the case with royal _ that something you remember? am i to be in the case with royal mail _ that something you remember? am i to be in the case with royal mail but - be in the case with royal mail but not with the post office. ii'idta�*e be in the case with royal mail but not with the post office.— not with the post office. have you an idea not with the post office. have you any idea what _ not with the post office. have you any idea what the _ not with the post office. have you any idea what the value _ not with the post office. have you any idea what the value of - not with the post office. have you any idea what the value of these l any idea what the value of these facilities — any idea what the value of these facilities that were offered came to? ., facilities that were offered came to? no. some final questions on network to? tip. some final questions on network transformation. paragraph 1.44 network transformation. paragraph 144 a _ network transformation. paragraph i~44 a of— network transformation. paragraph 1.44 a of your witness statement to say that _ 1.44 a of your witness statement to say that the — 1.44 a of your witness statement to say that the network transformation programme is designed to increase footfall— programme is designed to increase footfall and share costs between the sub-post _ footfall and share costs between the sub—post office and the associated retail _ sub—post office and the associated retail space. you mentioned in evidence — retail space. you mentioned in evidence about network transformation that you felt being about _ transformation that you felt being about sustainable businesses. yes,

yes. about sustainable businesses. yes, yes by— about sustainable businesses. yes, yes. by sharing cost between the sub-post— yes. by sharing cost between the sub—post office and the associated retail _ sub—post office and the associated retail space, do you mean that the post office — retail space, do you mean that the post office wanted to sub—postmasters retail business to sub—postmasters retail business to paramount— sub—postmasters retail business to paramount —— bear more of the cost of running _ paramount —— bear more of the cost of running the branch? no, paramount -- bear more of the cost of running the branch?— of running the branch? no, what ha--ens of running the branch? no, what happens is _ of running the branch? no, what happens is that _ of running the branch? no, what happens is that the _ of running the branch? no, what happens is that the main - of running the branch? no, what happens is that the main post i happens is that the main post offices particularly... the shops were usually fairly successful retail outlets. the advantage of having a post office alongside those jobsis having a post office alongside those jobs is that the post office brought with it a very high footfall, then the retail owner, the sub—postmaster, if you like, benefited from the increased sales from the retail outlet from the footfall of the post office. that was the model for the men's post office. forthe was the model for the men's post office. for the locals post office, the sub—postmaster always paid their

staff, they were their costs. in the locals post office what we did to a greater extent successfully is put at the tail alongside the retail tale, and it still happens today and a couple of my local post offices, you see the staff who work on the retail side working also at the post office counter, which meant that the sub—postmaster was able to reduce their overall staffing bills, because if you are in a small shop in the footfall is less, what happened previously what you had to pay for two members of staff because they had counters that were apart. did the network transformation programme reduces the amount of cost to the _ programme reduces the amount of cost to the taxpayer by reducing the income — to the taxpayer by reducing the income to— to the taxpayer by reducing the income to sub—postmasters and moving that cost _ income to sub—postmasters and moving that cost on— income to sub—postmasters and moving that cost on to the retailer? no. income to sub-postmasters and moving that cost on to the retailer?— that cost on to the retailer? no. it is a very good _

that cost on to the retailer? no. it is a very good question. _ that cost on to the retailer? no. it is a very good question. much - is a very good question. much business modelling was done. business plans were produced by 44 before they took on either of these models. what happened at the same time is that the government is particularly reduced its business through post offices and over the stand government business, which paid... if people came to post offices to take up pensions benefits, process passports, dvla, that sort of thing that was all government business and postmasters were paid in different ways for those transactions. when that business was reduced dramatically because the government move to a digital by default policy, they wanted everyone getting pensions and benefits paid directly into your bank account, it facilitated that. what it meant is that the post office has lost a lot of money.

would you accept that the network transformation programme actually ended _ transformation programme actually ended up— transformation programme actually ended up being to the detriment of sub—postmasters? | ended up being to the detriment of sub-postmasters?— ended up being to the detriment of sub-postmasters? i don't believe so. the programme _ sub-postmasters? i don't believe so. the programme was _ sub-postmasters? i don't believe so. the programme was done _ sub-postmasters? i don't believe so. the programme was done for - sub-postmasters? i don't believe so. the programme was done for both i the programme was done for both postmasters and communities. we did research on the programme was put in place initially, and then every year since, and i would have remembered these figures correctly but i think these figures correctly but i think the satisfaction levels were high and a figure of around 80% comes to mind. and a figure of around 8096 comes to mind. ., ., and a figure of around 8096 comes to mind. ., ~' ,, and a figure of around 8096 comes to mind. ., ,, ,, �* , and a figure of around 8096 comes to mind. . ,, i. �* , and a figure of around 8096 comes to mind. . �* , , mind. thank you, bed. those were my cuestions. mind. thank you, bed. those were my questions- i— mind. thank you, bed. those were my questions- i am _ mind. thank you, bed. those were my questions. i am very _ mind. thank you, bed. those were my questions. i am very grateful - mind. thank you, bed. those were my questions. i am very grateful for - questions. i am very grateful for our questions. i am very grateful for your economy — questions. i am very grateful for your economy of _ questions. i am very grateful for your economy of words. - questions. i am very grateful for your economy of words. rights, | questions. i am very grateful for i your economy of words. rights, on behalf— your economy of words. rights, on behalf of— your economy of words. rights, on behalf of this... — your economy of words. rights, on behalf of this... my _ your economy of words. rights, on behalf of this. . ._ behalf of this. .. my name is kirsty alan and i — behalf of this. .. my name is kirsty alan and i represents _ behalf of this. .. my name is kirsty alan and i represents susan - alan and i represents susan sinclair, _ alan and i represents susan sinclair, who was wrongfully

convicted sub—postmistress. she was the first— convicted sub—postmistress. she was the first to _ convicted sub—postmistress. she was the first to successfully appeal her conviction— the first to successfully appeal her conviction in scotland, which only happened — conviction in scotland, which only happened as recently as september last year~ _ happened as recently as september last year. in your witness statement, you state that you were always — statement, you state that you were always open to the real possibility of unsafe — always open to the real possibility of unsafe convictions and, as such, you always — of unsafe convictions and, as such, you always sought to be questioning in your— you always sought to be questioning in your approach. after reading accounts — in your approach. after reading accounts of sub—postmasters and reconciling — accounts of sub—postmasters and reconciling these with the findings of second — reconciling these with the findings of second sight's second report, the identification of bugs with horizon and garethjenkins coming forwards, at what _ and garethjenkins coming forwards, at what extent did you question the safety— at what extent did you question the safety of— at what extent did you question the safety of convictions, including those — safety of convictions, including those in — safety of convictions, including those in scotland? all safety of convictions, including those in scotland?— those in scotland? all of the sub-postmasters _ those in scotland? all of the sub-postmasters who - those in scotland? all of the sub-postmasters who raised those in scotland? all of the - sub-postmasters who raised cases sub—postmasters who raised cases were admitted into the scheme, if their applications were

considered... that there was a case to do that. there was no intention to do that. there was no intention to exclude anybody. so my understanding, and am very sorry because i wouldn't have known the individual cases if there were scottish cases in their numbers. i am very sorry that it took so long for that to be resolved.— am very sorry that it took so long for that to be resolved. thank you. are ou for that to be resolved. thank you. are you reassured _ for that to be resolved. thank you. are you reassured that _ for that to be resolved. thank you. are you reassured that there - for that to be resolved. thank you. are you reassured that there was i for that to be resolved. thank you. | are you reassured that there was an extra _ are you reassured that there was an extra layer— are you reassured that there was an extra layer of protection... are — extra layer of protection... are reminded he can continue to watch that evidence. it is the last day of three days of pretty tough questioning from lawyers representing those whose sub—postmasters. one of the last acts of parliament today before parliament is dissolved before the general election is the absorbance

of those sub—postmasters and sub—postmistresses. let's have a look at the weather. hello. after several days of heavy and persistent rain for many of us, the good news is today is looking much drier. brighter too. there will be some spells of sunshine breaking through, but the low pressure that's been slow moving across the uk is now tending to fill and ease away. we've got the legacy of that leftover frontal system. yes, it's fizzling away, but it's bringing still a lot of cloud around. there will be a few splashes of rain here and there, especially so for southern scotland, north—east england. one or two showers for the south—west, as well. i think the driest and brightest of the weather will be across south—east england, east anglia too. temperatures of 19 or 20 degrees here, but typically elsewhere we're looking at the mid teens, so fairly typical of this time of year, really. through this evening the cloud continues to break up. overnight there could be some mist and some fog patches, particularly so for central parts of england and wales. by the end of the night there will be some rain just near the coast of east anglia.

temperatures getting down into mid single figures in the more rural spots. the bank holiday weekend starts off on a fairly fresh note. there will be some sunshine, but there will be increasing amounts of showers, especially so for sunday and monday. it will feel a little bit warmer on saturday than recent days. we've got a front approaching from the west later in the day, that will bring more cloud to the south—west of england. eventually some rain moving in here. we've also got cloud and rain moving in from the east across parts of east anglia, up towards the lincolnshire, the humber, as well, by the middle of the day, but away from these two areas actually a lot of dry weather. more sunshine tomorrow than we've got out there today and that will lift temperatures, so 19 or 20 degrees fairly widely. overnight saturday into sunday, that frontal system pushes its way from west to east. that will bring a bit more of an unsettled picture into sunday. so, yes, still some sunshine, but as you can see, plenty of showers developing through the day, some of them potentially heavy and thundery, as well. probably the north—east of scotland, particularly the northern isles, getting away with a largely dry day, but hit and miss scattered showers. heavy ones too elsewhere.

temperatures in the high teens. into bank holiday monday itself, a similar day, sunshine and showers, some of them heavy and thundery, but i think the bulk of them will be across the northern half of the uk, probably a little bit drier towards the south, but certainly another day for bringing the brolly, i think, wherever you are. then that unsettled theme continues through the course of next week. some sunshine, some scattered showers, temperatures perhaps rising, especially in the south—next week. bye— bye.

today at one, the former post office boss paula vennells is accused of being in denial about her role in the horizon it scandal. on her final day of evidence to the public inquiry she's been asked about her repeated failure to act. there are no words i can find today that will make the sorrow and what people have gone through andy better. miss vennells, that's humbug. you preach compassion but you don't practice it. her evidence comes on the day hundreds of subpostmasters are due to have their convictions quashed. also on the programme... average household gas and electricity bills will fall this summer, as the price cap is lowered in england, scotland and wales.

on the general election trail labour launches its campaign in scotland as rishi sunak heads to northern ireland. the young woman rejected by the army because of a family history of breast cancer — a bbc investigation prompts a u—turn. can he? can he? yes! you beauty. yes he can. and the yes he can. teenage darts sensation luke littler wins his first major title — the premier league. and coming up on bbc news... manchester city and manchester united prepare to go head—to—head in the fa cup final for the second year in a row.