we will have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after this programme. hello. this week we're looking at saudi arabia and its strategy of using entertainment and media to change what the world thinks of it. millions watched tyson fury�*s fight with oleksandr usyk in riyadh last week, but critics accused saudi arabia of using big media events to distract from the kingdom's human rights record. we'll talk to one reporter who was ringside in riyadh to understand how he approached covering the story. and we'll take a look

at scarlettjohansson�*s dispute with openai. the actress accuses the tech company of deliberately copying her voice for its new chatbot. hi. woman's voice: hi. well, we're going to start this week's programme by coming back to a story that actually we covered last week concerning netflix and the controversy around its latest hit, baby reindeer. now, katie, for people who didn't see the programme last week, who perhaps haven't been following all this, although it's been a high—profile story, what is baby reindeer? why is it getting so much attention? well, baby reindeer first of all is a hit show across the world. many millions, tens of millions, i think up to 65 million people have watched it, probably more by now. and it is the story — purporting to be a true story, because it says at the beginning, "this is a true story" — and it is a story of a man who's played by richard gadd, but he's playing himself. so he's a british actor playing himself, and he is

stalked in the programme. and it's a long programme about a terrible campaign of stalking that he underwent and says he underwent in real life. and a lot of the controversy revolves around what happens right at the start of the first episode, where we're told by netflix, by the producer of this programme, "this is a true story." exactly. because it is unusual. you know, we're used to seeing these kind of programmes where it might say, "this is inspired by true events," or, "this is based on a true story." it's very rare to see, "this is a true story." and as a viewer, when you watch this as a true story, i suppose, what do you think? you understand it's a fiction, it's a drama, so you might think they might be taking some liberties, but you do assume it is very mu... .very. .. it's sticking to the truth. and when we were talking about it last week and we were planning that section of the programme, of course we invited netflix to take part, and it chose not to put a guest into the programme. so the only time we've actually heard from someone at netflix talking about this was to a parliamentary committee, which is where

we get to the latest developments of the story. exactly right. because, as you say, the only time netflix has commented since the furore around this programme was when a netflix executive from the uk, benjamin king, gave evidence to the culture, media and sport committee and he talked about the show in this way. he said it was obviously a true story of the horrific abuse that the writer and protagonist richard gadd suffered at the hands of a convicted stalker, and that is key — convicted stalker. spoiler alert — i'm afraid i am going to spoil the programme for people who haven't watched it, so do stop watching if you're. . . if you're. .. just for the next minute or so. just for the next minute, and then come back. because at the end of the programme, the woman who is the stalker in the programme is convicted and goes to prison. and this netflix executive clearly says richard gadd suffered, you know, abuse at the hands of a convicted stalker. now, one of the mps, the parliamentarians who's on that committee, is a guy called john nicolson. he's an snp, scottish national party, mp. and as the furore...it became more and more difficult because here are these words "convicted stalker", and yet nobody, no journalist, nobody can find any evidence that actually she is

a convicted stalker, as in the person who is alleged to be the real martha, if we can put it like that. i should explain that having...this programme, having caused all this controversy, this...a woman came out, the internet sleuths started looking and trying to find out who she was, and very quickly somebody was named and that person came forward and said, "yes, it's based on me, but it's all lies. none of this happened, very little of it. i sent the odd email, but certainly not 41,000. and, no, i'm not a convicted stalker," and people have been looking to find that evidence and they haven't found it. but what can the parliamentarians who heard from netflix do about the fact that they think perhaps — not definitely — but perhaps they may have been told something that doesn't stack up? well, the key thing here is under uk law, to knowingly mislead a committee is a contempt of parliament. so that is serious. sojohn nicolson, this snp mp, has written to netflix to say, "i would like to know," you know, "you need to clarify

your evidence to me." he quotes what the executive said to him, and he says in his letter, "journalists have thus far been unable to find a record of the conviction to which you referred. can you provide me with the evidence for this serious claim which you made to me at the select committee?" so he is awaiting a response. so i was going to ask you, no reply yet? no reply as yet that i'm aware of. 0k, katie, thank you very much for taking us through that. now, the two of us are going to talk about boxing next on the media show, because on saturday, well, lots of you may have seen this. 0leksandr usyk beat tyson fury, became the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world, a real moment for boxing fans. and this bout was in riyadh in saudi arabia. and it's part of what critics say is saudi arabia pursuing a sportswashing strategy. in other words, to invest in sport to improve their international reputation and perhaps deflect from a poor human rights record. alex pattle is combat sports correspondent at the independent. he was there on saturday night.

and simon chadwick is a professor of sport and geopolitical economy at skema business school. um, simon, first of all, just remind us what the saudi sports strategy is and how this momentous, historic boxing match actually ended up there. so saudi arabian investment in sport has essentially come from nowhere over the last ten years. it is part of a strategy intended to deliver upon a national vision, and that national vision is multidimensional. it's economic. it's an attempt to transform the saudi economy. it's also an attempt to transform saudi society. it's also a way, too, ithink, of, arm, pacifying the native population, i think, because the saudi rulers, they're acutely aware of the threats in the region. we go back to the arab spring, for instance. we think also about, obviously,

the instability of the region and some of the threats locally as it is — so where we got to...how we got to saturday night is essentially a lot of money being spent on lots of different sports, particularly around event hosting, with a view to notjust changing perceptions of the country, but i think also drawing people into the country so that they spend money. and this is vision 2030, is it called? just explain that. yeah. so obviously it's very interesting because if you look at any of the gcc countries, the gulf cooperation council countries, there are six of them and they all have 2030 visions. and these are a vision of what they want their countries to become. obviously, they're hugely dependent upon oil and gas revenues. in the case of saudi arabia, something like 40% of the economy is accounted for by oil and gas revenues. and so to transform the economy, to diversify, to create a greater sense of resilience economically is very important.

i mean, particularly in the world as it is today, when many of us are kicking back against fossil fuel consumption. so this is why i find the discussions around sportswashing interesting, because i do think to a certain extent, it's an oversimplification of the multiple challenges that saudi arabia and its near neighbours face right now. alex pattle, i'd like to bring you in, not least because you've got one of the best titles in media — combat sports correspondent at the independent — but also because you were there. i mean, just for non—boxing fans, just explain how significant this match was, because, you know, clearly it was a big deal, a big deal for saudi arabia certainly, because up to now the sporting events they've hosted have been looked on as, by and large, something of a novelty, i think. yes, for sure. if you look at recent - boxing events out there, we've had anthonyjoshua versus francis ngannou, i tyson fury versusl francis ngannou — ngannou being a former ufc champion, so a mixed martial artist. _ so they were novel bouts.

but this, some people i described at the weekend as the fight of the century. we've had big fights- in the last ten or so years, floyd mayweather versus - manny pacquiao, that was such a high—profile bout that people had dreamed of seeing - for years, but they were both past their prime. l and that was also almost a little bit novel. - but this, you know, the first undisputed heavyweight - title fight in 25 years. it's a bout that people have longed for for. that period of time. and itjust looked like we might not get one| for another 25 years. but it obviously finally went ahead, in large part - because of the finances - that the saudis have injected into boxing and what that - enables them to do and how it enables them to pay fighters, obviously. i and what was the experience like for you? what was it like being there and reporting on it? it was surreal in a way. erm, riyadh itself, there's not. a tremendous amount going on. erm, and most locals i spoke to and most locals that otherj journalists i met spoke to, arm, had no idea that- the event was going on. some had a vague idea - that there was a fight there.

they didn't understand the significance. - they didn't know the - participants in most cases. the pre—fight events, . the weigh—in, the press conference, the open workouts, it was staged in a sort _ of outdoor mall area near - the arena on the edge of town. and, you know, there were locals milling. about again, some of whom — employees in that area - included — asked me, - you know, "what's going on? what are we looking at?" so fight week didn't really - have much of a buzz until later on when you had about 2,500 brits travelling out, _ some ukrainians as well. but even fight night itself, there were over 20,000 . people in the arena, it wasn't quite full. i erm, but again, you know, largely locals and... - and were you completely able...you weren't constrained at all. you were able to report as you wanted to report? you were able to travel as you wanted to travel? yes, i felt so. i mean, obviously, ithink. they've got to be conscious of the fact that there i

are conceptions about what media coverage is like. and, you know, howjournalists obviously have been _ treated in the past. so i didn't feel that - i was necessarily restricted. erm, no. and there are allegations, as we were talking about earlier, of sportswashing. how did you approach that in your reporting? well, it's tricky. if i'm completely honest, probably not as much - as i would have liked to. it's a topic i've written i about and written about critically in the past. but i do think with situations like this, and i can _ only speak for myself, - but as the fight neared, i sort of felt a bit of a sense, - as i know some journalists do, of almost feeling like you have to pick your battles. _ i'd not been to- saudi arabia before. i didn't know what to expect. erm, now that i'm back, i suppose i feel a bit - of a weight has been lifted and i feel i can speak- a bit more openly. about it, but, erm... i mean, ishould probably point out the independent has saudi investment itself in it... yeah. ..but do you feel you were self—censoring and how do you feel about that, looking back? yes. on a personal level, i suppose. erm, yeah, definitely. nothing from higher up. i'd like to make that clear. erm, but, yeah, look, -

it's a moral quandary, i think. as i said, i've written about it in the past. i erm, but, yeah, and saudi - arabia is not somewhere whose politics align with my own, and it's not somewhere . i would have gone and somewhere i've turned down going _ to in the past until i felt. like there was something in my remit that i absolutely had to go to, in the sense of the significance of the fight. and, simon, if i could bring you in now, looking across the coverage of this sporting event on saturday, it seemed to me that the number of references to human rights issues was lower than perhaps some other sports stories involving saudi arabia in recent years. do you think that's a fair observation? yeah, ido. erm, it's really interesting. i've got a phd student at the moment looking at, er, news coverage and reactions to, arm... ..notjust events being staged in difficult territories, but also the responses at home to investments by the likes of saudi arabia into football clubs like newcastle united. and i guess there are two elements to this that i've observed — is since october the 7th, erm, there is far less news coverage

in general of the geopolitical economy of sport, and i think the reason for that is, in my understanding or my interpretation, is it's actually very difficult, very complex. it doesn't matter what you write, you're going to get kickback from somebody. and so because it's only sports, er, let's not...you know, let's not dally with that and let's focus on other issues. so, yes, absolutely. but i think the other part of this, too, is if we are talking about managing image, image and reputation, that process i think involves legitimisation. erm, and essentially people in the end just stop talking about it. you know, they quit concerning themselves with the wider issues and they focus on the boxing, they focus on the football. and i guess that's the point.

and notjust for saudi arabia, for any country that invests in sport, it's a little kind of like bread and circuses. you give people what they want, and they're less likely to scrutinise and criticise you. simon chadwick, thank you very much indeed forjoining us. thanks to alex pattle, too. but we're going to turn to some ai news, because scarlett johansson has accused the artificial intelligence research company 0penai of deliberately copying her voice for its latest chatbot, sky. the actress is now considering legal action. have a listen to how the chatbot sounds. hey, chatgpt. i'm mark. how are you? chatbot: hello, mark. i'm doing great. thanks for asking. how about you ? well, that was the 0penai chatbot. this next clip coming up is scarlettjohansson in her role in the film her as an ai chatbot. hi. how are you doing? i'm well. how's everything with you? pretty good, actually. scarlettjohansson and joaquin phoenix there.

now, scarlettjohansson has released a statement saying she was shocked, angered and in disbelief that the 0penai ceo, sam altman, would opt for a voice that sounds, as she put it, "so eerily similarto mine". further in this statement, she said, "when i heard the release demo, i was shocked and angered." i've mentioned that. she goes on to say, "mr altman even insinuated that the similarity was intentional, tweeting a single word — �*her�* — a reference to the film in which i voiced a chat system." susan aslan is a lawyer and partner at ack media law. hello, susan. and takara small is a tech journalist. takara, thank you so much to you for coming on the programme. just give us some context here first. why was this voice developed? it's one of a range of the latest versions of chatgpt. yes, it's one of many ai systems that was. unveiled recently. openai updated many of their services. - chatgpt is probably one that i most people are familiar with, and this sky voice, - which you just heard, which, you know, the actress has said is eerily similar to hers, -

was unveiled as part of its big hurrah, - its big, you know, update. and it's really, _ erm...it's really generated a lot of controversy. i think it's a wake—up call to many people. | you know, individuals - are seeing that if someone as famous, as wealthy - as scarlett can have her voice taken, used and modified, what hope is there for- the average person? and in a statement shared with the bbc by 0penai, mr altman denied that the company had sought to imitatejohansson�*s voice. he wrote, "this voice of sky is not scarlettjohansson�*s, and it was never intended to resemble hers. we cast the voice actor behind sky's voice before any outreach to msjohansson. out of respect to msjohansson, we have paused using sky's voice in our products. we're sorry to ms johansson that we didn't communicate better. " and is that... you know, you were talking about the reaction there in the media and entertainment circles. clearly, ai is a hot topic. it is, erm, you know,l

there wasjust recently a hollywood strike that came to an end about this - very thing. but i think it really shows that al is moving so fast. j and lawmakers, regulators, the private sector really- haven't come to some type of agreement. i the eu just, you know, - approved a landmark ai rule that hopefully will act as, - you know, some type of guidance for other countries, - but everything is moving so fast. and i think what's important, it's moving so fast and driven by private institutions - where their economic incentive is to commercialise and make profit, so obviously _ there are concerns about, you know, whether an - individual's right to privacy, i their consent, their ability to opt out, will that be realised? will that be respected? takara, thank you. susan, let's bring you in here. scarlettjohansson has said she has been forced to hire lawyers, that she sent legal letters to 0penai. do you think she might have one case or another to make here? yeah, i mean, i think what was said just now is quite right. i think the law is scurrying to catch up with these

new developments which are ahead of the curve the whole time. so what you find is there's a patchwork of legal frameworks that are kind of overlapping, trying to stretch to accommodate what's happening. in this country, there is no specific ai—directed law, but the law of passing off is probably the most capacious, if you like. if you have goodwill in your name or your reputation, and someone is holding you out as having sponsored or promoting their product, then you can say, "well, no, this is a misrepresentation. it's causing me damage." and i think that's quite analogous to what's happening here, but there's also data protection. if, in fact, they were processing her voice before putting it into artificial intelligence, then they're processing her data, her voice. so there are some laws that exist... yeah. ..which could be relevant, but is it inevitable, given the pace at which ai

is developing at the moment, that it gets us into territory which current laws can't handle, can't cover? well, the courts are quite flexible. i mean, you saw that with the law of privacy. the courts started extending the law of confidence to kind of fill the gaps. but, yes, eventually you end up with privacy laws to plug the gap, and i suspect this is going to be the same. you'll end up with a specific statute that will cover what's happening. give us an idea how long a statute of that nature might take to pull together. because, of course, if we talk about al in six months here on the media show, we're probably going to be talking about technology we can't even properly imagine in detail. so is there always a risk... ..it�*s the law is struggling to catch up? yeah. i mean, i think it's very true that the law is struggling to catch up and a statute would take years. it's got to be promulgated. you know, it's got to go through all those various committee stages, and also you don't want to go too soon because you don't know what you're dealing with. you know, you've got to see how the courts deal with these

issues and where the gaps are before you start leaping into action with a statute that might not actually do the business. takara, if we could bring you back in here, are there other examples of people either in the public, who are public, er, you know, reputations, public figures, or people who live more private lives, that they have been in some way copied by ai in a way that they don't want to be? yeah. i mean, and it's tricky- because ai is moving so fast and it's really difficultl to determine what's ai and what someone has created on their own i through human, erm, interactions. - but, you know, one that i immediately pops to mind is a comedian named george carlin — so he is deceased, and there was a company that decidedl to showcase his comedic talents by utilising some _ of his past work. and i think something like that is going to. become quite common. well, the furore around scarlettjohansson and her voice, whether it was or wasn't

her voice, it was unveiled last week as 0penai launched an upgrade to chatgpt called gpt—iio, and the alarms race is hotting up with a raft of new releases by the likes of apple and google. takara, just tell me, tell us the latest on all that. yeah, there is very much an ai race happening right now. - i liken it to the space race, where companies are really| barrelling forward. they're investing as much money as they can in al. i so we have google, - who has released gemini, which is an ai application that helps with search. _ fortunately, it's only- available in the us right now, but it enables users to type in a message, a prompt, i and receive information i from a page, and will kind of scuttle down, | search for them. and apple, which is kind of really interesting, - erm, they are actually- going to partner allegedly with openai to incorporate the ability to talk- to an assistant, the ability- to use openai and that chatgpt technology to customise emails, you know, photos, videos, - all of that, all in one.

so it's... you know, we are going to be inundated with all whether we want it or not. so you've mentioned google and you've mentioned apple. let's just ask you first about that google one and changes to search and what that might mean for news publishers. what's your assessment when it comes to this new google development? yeah, i mean there are several us—based newspapers that - are suing because they believe some of their work was - used to train openai. this really hits i across the board. it's not just actors, i it's not musicians, it's not just journalists. i think really there's - going to be a need to discuss whether or not, you know, having ai is...is... - ..should be viewed as a public good that everyone should be| able to access and the data should be available, - or if we should keep it in - the hands of private companies. and you also were talking about apple. how has apple fared so far in the ai race? it's been an interesting journey for apple. - um, you'd think a company. with its capacity and resources

would be a little bit further ahead than it is. _ erm, you know, chatgpt launched ian app that allowed apple usersl to download and utilise that for, you know, their phonel and services, and apple realised that perhaps i they needed to pick up the pace. - so they've incorporated and allegedly are goingj to partner with, erm, - you know, openai to bring together, you know, i a programme, services within the iphone. i know that they're still. working towards their own independent applications, but i really think this - is a stopgap measure - because they cannot afford to be left behind. susan, susan aslan from ack media law, you're still here with us and listening to takara. this issue of being able to opt out for individuals when we're all using services, and sometimes it can either be impossible or difficult to opt out, presumably there are regulatory or legal obligations that apply to these big tech firms, perhaps differently in different countries. but in each country, there may — must be some guarantees, surely, that if we want to opt out of something, we can. yeah, that's very interesting because you'll know, we all know, that when there's

an update, we're asked to agree to all those terms and conditions again. yes. and how many of us read them, even though we're lawyers? almost no—one. we just tick accept and off we go, because if not, you're going to have to tick every bit of the agreement that you agree with and blah, blah, blah. so people don't do that, and that's what they bank on. but there are regulations about opting in and opting out now where you actually have to positively opt in and opt out. and i think particularly some of the american companies aren't really up to speed on that. and i think there will be challenges if people do... ..if people do not want to be flooded with all this information, if people want to, you know, stay with google mark one rather than four, they should be able to do that if they want to. it should be a choice, but you have to be quite switched on to be able to do it. that's the thing.

and we know and we've talked about it on the media show in previous weeks, that the new york times is taking 0penai to court over how 0penai has accessed some of the new york times' content. that's playing out in the states. and, of course, a lot of these big tech operations are based in the states. yeah. 0penai is, google is, and so on. does that mean most of the legal activity relating to ai will be in the us, or could we expect legal activity here in the uk or perhaps in the european union? no, i think there will be legal activity here. already, erm, authors are very much up in arms about their novels being used to train ai. they're back to this ai business so that you can actually write novels in the style ofjk rowling, for example. and people like that are going to be all over this. happy days for lawyers — like you, susan! thank you. thank you so much for coming on the programme, susan aslan from ack media law. also thanks to takara small, as well as simon chadwick from the skema business school and alex pattle from the independent. thanks so much for watching.

that's it for today. we'll be back at the same time next week. so from katie and from me, bye—bye. and if you'd like to hear a longer version of today's show, search bbc the media show wherever you get your bbc podcasts. hello there. there were some warm weather around on saturday. top temperatures of 22 celsius in the south east, but we'll start to see some changes for the second half of the bank holiday weekend with sunny spells and thundery downpours moving in, all thanks to low pressure close by. as we head into sunday, these weather fronts will be pushing their way northwards, bringing outbreaks of rain, the odd heavier burst as it pushes northwards. but as we head into the latter parts of the morning, into the afternoon, sunshine will appear pretty widely for england, wales and northern ireland and that'll set off some heavy and thundery downpours at times. further north, we'll continue to see some showery rain with a bit of sunshine across northern scotland, but that will

impact the temperatures — not quite as warm as saturday, highs of 16 to 19 degrees. as we head through sunday night, though, showers and thunderstorms rattle on for a while into the evening before fading out for england and wales with clear skies here, but further cloud, patchy rain likely across the northern half of the country and temperatures range from around nine to 11 degrees. so into our bank holiday monday, it looks like that weather front continues to push northwards. so that's where we're going to see some of the heaviest of the showers across the north and east of scotland. we'll start off with some sunshine around, but again, showers will develop and pretty much anywhere could catch a heavy maybe thundery shower. but the focus of them will be across northern and east of scotland and maybe northeast england. maybe later in the day, something a bit drier and brighter pushing into western areas. but temperatures a few degrees down, still 15 to 17 degrees, still quite pleasant in any sunshine. as we head into tuesday, low pressure starts to move in off the atlantic. starts fine across scotland, northern england, the sunshine

begins to fade as cloud breeze rain starts to push up from the south and the west. there'll be mainly patchy in nature, but conditions will go downhill through the day, though i think the northeast of scotland and the northern isles should largely escape and stay dry until after dark. and temperature wise again, the mid to high teens. low pressure is with us then as we move through the middle part of the upcoming week. but then the signs of it moving away in this area of high pressure wants to topple in from the west, so that should slowly settle things down, i think, towards the end of the week and as we head into next weekend, increasing dry weather with some sunshine so should start to feel a touch warmer, too.

live from washington, this is bbc news. russia bombs a superstore in ukraine's second city of kharkiv, killing at least six people. kenya's president, william ruto, tells the bbc about a plan to send kenyan police to haiti to tackle gang violence as he receives a state visit at the white house. anc a video shared by donald trump appearing to reference nazi germany sparks controversy. 0ur reporter has been investigating its origins. hello i'm helena humphrey. glad you could join me. ukraine's president, volodymyr zelensky, says a deadly air strike

on a crowded superstore is an act of "russian madness".