hello. this is it — the country's biggest contest — the fight for number 10. rishi sunak�*s sodden moment in the soaking rain, wasn't the best of starts. keir starmer might have been surprised by the time but his message has long been clear. over the next six weeks the leaders vying for your vote will be right here.

labour's rachel reeves, who wants to take charge of your cash, and the home secretary, conservative, james cleverly, are here to start. is it a relief it's finally been called? i love elections, i'm a bit funny like that. �* i love elections, i'm a bit funny like that-— i love elections, i'm a bit funny like that. �* ., ., ., like that. i'm looking forward to tourin: like that. i'm looking forward to touring the _ like that. i'm looking forward to touring the country _ like that. i'm looking forward to touring the country and - like that. i'm looking forward to touring the country and getting | touring the country and getting labour's — touring the country and getting labour's message of change out to the voters — labour's message of change out to the voters. we labour's message of change out to the voters. ~ ., labour's message of change out to the watere— labour's message of change out to the voters-— the voters. we are delighted you are both here. take care — ourfact checkers will be watching what they say on air. each week the nation's election expert professorjohn curtice will keep the numbers right. mr sunak needs either a record campaign swing, or for the polls to be wrong and have their worst election ever. and a wonderful array of well—known faces will be join to work out what's going on. alanjohnson, former home secretary. and former conservative cabinet

minister nicky morgan are first. boss ofjohn lewis, sharon white. and the real magic? elections mean you are in control — so stay with us, don't miss a thing. morning. let's get started with what's making the news. the conservative plan to introduce mandatory national service — whether military or community service — for 18—year—olds, is splashed almost everywhere. rachel reeves accuses the conservatives of promising to cut tax without saying where the money's coming from on the front of the observer. and the tabloids splash with the sad news that eamonn holmes and ruth langsford, a real—life tv

sofa couple, are to split. the politics and election come you don't get bigger moments than this until the end of the campaign. allen, what are you looking out for in these six weeks? in allen, what are you looking out for in these six weeks?— in these six weeks? in terms of labour, in these six weeks? in terms of labour. it's _ in these six weeks? in terms of labour. it's a — in these six weeks? in terms of labour, it's a long _ in these six weeks? in terms of labour, it's a long time - in these six weeks? in terms of labour, it's a long time since . in these six weeks? in terms of| labour, it's a long time since we were in government so we have to convince the electorate that we are ready for government. that's what we failed to do spectacularly in 2019, failed to do spectacularly in 2019, failed in 2017 and 2015. when you are part of a party and a party supporter and have seen those failures, i was the last labour home secretary and i don't want to be the last labour home secretary if you know what i mean.— last labour home secretary if you know what i mean. sounds like you are traumatised _ know what i mean. sounds like you are traumatised by _ know what i mean. sounds like you are traumatised by those _ know what i mean. sounds like you are traumatised by those losses. . know what i mean. sounds like you l are traumatised by those losses. not now, i am are traumatised by those losses. iirrt now, lam much are traumatised by those losses. iirrt now, i am much calmer now. notjust the polling, but the feeling that the polling, but the feeling that the adults are in charge. has a the adults are in charge. as a conservative, _ the adults are in charge. as a conservative, nicky, - the adults are in charge. as a conservative, nicky, you - the adults are in charge. as a conservative, nicky, you have been loyalfor a long conservative, nicky, you have been loyal for a long time. conservative, nicky, you have been

loyalfor a long time. at the beginning it looks very bleak but i stress we are at the beginning. we are at the beginning and i am actually— are at the beginning and i am actually glad the election has been called~ _ actually glad the election has been called~ i_ actually glad the election has been called. i was thinking it should be in may— called. i was thinking it should be in may and — called. i was thinking it should be in may and if it happened then i think_ in may and if it happened then i think we — in may and if it happened then i think we could have probably saved andy street. it's good it has got under_ andy street. it's good it has got under way— andy street. it's good it has got under way and the big moments will be under way and the big moments will he the _ under way and the big moments will he the tv— under way and the big moments will be the tv debates but we in westminster are always fascinated by prime _ westminster are always fascinated by prime minister's questions but for the rest _ prime minister's questions but for the rest of— prime minister's questions but for the rest of the country is not a big moment — the rest of the country is not a big moment. forthose the rest of the country is not a big moment. for those to see certainly the two _ moment. for those to see certainly the two main party leaders, answering questions and comparing them _ answering questions and comparing them literally against each other is a bi- them literally against each other is a big moment. it them literally against each other is a big moment-— a big moment. a lot of your colleagues _ a big moment. a lot of your colleagues are _ a big moment. a lot of your colleagues are feeling - a big moment. a lot of your colleagues are feeling very | colleagues are feeling very despondent and a lot of them are really cross the election has been called and they think it is almost over. it called and they think it is almost over. , ., over. it is never over until literally — over. it is never over until literally 10pm _ over. it is never over until literally 10pm on - over. it is never over until literally 10pm on election | over. it is never over until - literally 10pm on election night and we see _ literally 10pm on election night and we see the exit poll. and that's another— we see the exit poll. and that's another big moment. elections are an extraordinary moment. i know some people _ extraordinary moment. i know some people are _ extraordinary moment. i know some people are despondent but equally the time _ people are despondent but equally the time has come to take their

message — the time has come to take their message to the country. sharon white, you _ message to the country. sharon white, you bring _ message to the country. sharon white, you bring all— message to the country. sharon white, you bring all your- message to the country. sharoni white, you bring all your insight message to the country. sharon i white, you bring all your insight as the boss of a big company and a former senior treasury economist. 0ne former senior treasury economist. one thing both parties are grappling with is a tricky economy. what's top of your list for politicians to explain in the next few weeks? for either party — explain in the next few weeks? for either party explaining that there is a plan — either party explaining that there is a plan that— either party explaining that there is a plan that adds _ either party explaining that there is a plan that adds up. _ either party explaining that there is a plan that adds up. the - either party explaining that there is a plan that adds up. the last . either party explaining that there l is a plan that adds up. the last few years— is a plan that adds up. the last few years have — is a plan that adds up. the last few years have been _ is a plan that adds up. the last few years have been a _ is a plan that adds up. the last few years have been a torrid _ is a plan that adds up. the last few years have been a torrid time. - is a plan that adds up. the last few years have been a torrid time. a. years have been a torrid time. a message — years have been a torrid time. a message for— years have been a torrid time. a message for hope, _ years have been a torrid time. a message for hope, that - years have been a torrid time. a. message for hope, that businesses can invest — message for hope, that businesses can invest behind. _ message for hope, that businesses can invest behind. we _ message for hope, that businesses can invest behind. we all— message for hope, that businesses can invest behind. we all know- message for hope, that businesses| can invest behind. we all know that public— can invest behind. we all know that public finances _ can invest behind. we all know that public finances are _ can invest behind. we all know that public finances are not _ can invest behind. we all know that public finances are not in _ can invest behind. we all know that public finances are not in a - can invest behind. we all know that public finances are not in a great i public finances are not in a great shape _ public finances are not in a great shape with— public finances are not in a great shape with covid _ public finances are not in a great shape with covid and _ public finances are not in a great shape with covid and the - public finances are not in a great shape with covid and the cost i public finances are not in a great shape with covid and the cost of| shape with covid and the cost of living _ shape with covid and the cost of living crunch _ shape with covid and the cost of living crunch. a _ shape with covid and the cost of living crunch. a credible - shape with covid and the cost of living crunch. a credible plan. shape with covid and the cost ofi living crunch. a credible plan for how we — living crunch. a credible plan for how we get _ living crunch. a credible plan for how we get public— living crunch. a credible plan for how we get public services i living crunch. a credible plan for how we get public services and i living crunch. a credible plan for| how we get public services and a great _ how we get public services and a great climate _ how we get public services and a great climate for _ how we get public services and a great climate for investment, i how we get public services and al great climate for investment, but the numbers— great climate for investment, but the numbers have _ great climate for investment, but the numbers have to— great climate for investment, but the numbers have to add - great climate for investment, but the numbers have to add up. i great climate for investment, but the numbers have to add up. is. great climate for investment, but the numbers have to add up. as we seak the numbers have to add up. as we speak today — the numbers have to add up. as we speak today on _ the numbers have to add up. as we speak today on the _ the numbers have to add up. as we speak today on the first _ the numbers have to add up. as we speak today on the first sunday i the numbers have to add up. as we speak today on the first sunday of i speak today on the first sunday of the campaign, do the parties have credible plans? it the campaign, do the parties have credible plans?— credible plans? it will be a big auestion credible plans? it will be a big question over _ credible plans? it will be a big question over the _ credible plans? it will be a big question over the next - credible plans? it will be a big question over the next six i credible plans? it will be a big i question over the next six weeks. that's_ question over the next six weeks. that's a _ question over the next six weeks. that's a diplomatic _ question over the next six weeks. that's a diplomatic way _ question over the next six weeks. that's a diplomatic way of - question over the next six weeks. that's a diplomatic way of saying i that's a diplomatic way of saying not quite yet. we will see what rachel reeves says later. we will be back with you later.

you know we love hearing from you and the election is the moment when the power is handed to the public, so do email us at kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk or on social media use the hashtag bbclaurak and we'll hope to hear from you later in the show. and i'll share also some of your thoughts in my weekly newsletter. if you want to subscribe, the details are there on the screen. those newsletters will drop into yourinbox those newsletters will drop into your inbox on a thursday. let's get on with our first big guest then, week one, sunday number one — the home secretary, james cleverly. welcome. let's start with a big plan that has come this morning from the conservatives, announcing mandatory national service for 18—year—olds. at the beginning of this year the head of the army general patrick sanders suggested something like this and it was dismissed by number ten so what has changed? what this and it was dismissed by number ten so what has changed?— this and it was dismissed by number ten so what has changed? what we are -auttin ten so what has changed? what we are putting forward — ten so what has changed? what we are putting forward is _ ten so what has changed? what we are putting forward is a _ ten so what has changed? what we are putting forward is a mandatory - putting forward is a mandatory national service, a small element of which will be with the military, and anyone taking that route will volunteer to do so. whilst you will be compelled to take part in national service, nobody will be compelled to do the military bit.

it's about addressing the fragmentation we have seen in society with too many young people living in their own bubbles, whether that's digital or social. we want to get back to the situation where people are mixing with young people from different areas, different economic groups and religions to try and find a way of addressing the fragmentation we see too much of. sounds a bit like social engineering. if there are many thousands of teenagers don't want to go into the army, you only have 30,000 military places, so the majority would take the other option so what kind of thing would they do? it could be a range of things. it could be a kind of uniform public service, whether something like a special constable or an on—call firefighter or an emergency health responder or environmental protection, flood defence work. we are looking to keep this open. the important bit is about societal

coming together. that's absolutely key. we are investing in those young people and have allocated 2.5 billion towards this, fully funded. we have discussed with senior military leaders about the military element of it. and that will be slightly different. so it will be a year if you choose military and 25 days if you choose the civil option. to say it is fully funded. that's by cracking down on tax avoidance, and conservatives say they have been trying to do that for 1h years. mat trying to do that for 14 years. not t in: , trying to do that for 14 years. not trying. we _ trying to do that for 14 years. not trying. we have — trying to do that for 14 years. iirrt trying, we have been. trying to do that for 14 years. not trying, we have been. it - trying to do that for 14 years. not trying, we have been. it has i trying to do that for 14 years. not trying, we have been. it has not. trying to do that for 14 years. not i trying, we have been. it has not had the im act trying, we have been. it has not had the impact you _ trying, we have been. it has not had the impact you hoped _ trying, we have been. it has not had the impact you hoped for. _ the impact you hoped for. independent projections assess we will be able to catch about £6 billion. 1 billion of which will be set aside for this. you billion. 1 billion of which will be set aside for this.— billion. 1 billion of which will be set aside for this. you haven't been caettin set aside for this. you haven't been getting that — set aside for this. you haven't been getting that over — set aside for this. you haven't been getting that over the _ set aside for this. you haven't been getting that over the last _ set aside for this. you haven't been getting that over the last few i getting that over the last few years. getting that over the last few ears. ., . . getting that over the last few ears. ., ., . ., , years. no, we have. we have been

much better— years. no, we have. we have been much better than _ years. no, we have. we have been much better than the _ years. no, we have. we have been much better than the labour- years. no, we have. we have been much better than the labour party| much better than the labour party ever were on cracking down on tax avoidance. ever were on cracking down on tax avoidance-— avoidance. the other part of the money will _ avoidance. the other part of the money will come _ avoidance. the other part of the money will come from - avoidance. the other part of the money will come from the i avoidance. the other part of the i money will come from the shared prosperity fund, money that was allocated to spend around the country, often in places where there is deprivation and a dire need for things to improve, and you are taking money from that to put it somewhere else. he. taking money from that to put it somewhere else.— taking money from that to put it somewhere else. ., . somewhere else. no, we are extending it, it was due — somewhere else. no, we are extending it. it was due to — somewhere else. no, we are extending it, it was due to come _ somewhere else. no, we are extending it, it was due to come to _ somewhere else. no, we are extending it, it was due to come to an _ somewhere else. no, we are extending it, it was due to come to an end - somewhere else. no, we are extending it, it was due to come to an end and i it, it was due to come to an end and we are extending it by three years and spending it in those places. this money will be spent across the country. the levelling up the impact of the shared prosperity fund will continue. we are investing notjust in places but in people. you continue. we are investing not 'ust in places but in people.i in places but in people. you have made a decision _ in places but in people. you have made a decision and _ in places but in people. you have made a decision and it _ in places but in people. you have made a decision and it may i in places but in people. you have made a decision and it may be i in places but in people. you have| made a decision and it may be the right or wrong one, but you were spending it on a certain way on town centres around the country and it might be spent in those same geographical locations but it is being spent on something different. it was earmarked to finish. we are extending it. what we are looking to do is we are continuing our commitment to levelling up. as well

as investing in places, we are investing in people in those places. those people who want to argue that a government should not be investing in the young people in society, i would be very interested in hearing that argument. because this is about addressing an increasing phenomenon we have seen recently, which is this detachment, this fragmentation. i have been in the reserve forces for almost all my adult life. i have seen people volunteer in a variety of functions around the country. i have never met anybody who regrets doing it. and i have met lots of people who say they wish they had been encouraged to do so when younger. it’s been encouraged to do so when ounuer. �* , ., been encouraged to do so when ounuer. h ., ., younger. it's not volunteering if it is mandatory _ younger. it's not volunteering if it is mandatory and _ younger. it's not volunteering if it is mandatory and it's _ younger. it's not volunteering if it is mandatory and it's a _ younger. it's not volunteering if it is mandatory and it's a bit - younger. it's not volunteering if it is mandatory and it's a bit like i is mandatory and it's a bit like forcing teenagers to do something, they don't have a choice. are you comfortable, as a conservative who is meant to believe in liberal values and personal choice, forcing

teenagers to do something? irate values and personal choice, forcing teenagers to do something? we force --eole teenagers to do something? we force eo - le to teenagers to do something? we force people to do — teenagers to do something? we force people to do things _ teenagers to do something? we force people to do things all— teenagers to do something? we force people to do things all the _ teenagers to do something? we force people to do things all the time. i teenagers to do something? we force people to do things all the time. we i people to do things all the time. we force 16—year—olds, as a society, force 16—year—olds, as a society, for example, we recognise they are not fully formed, and they still require education, so the decision was made they remain in education or training. we have forced teenagers to be educated and nobody argues with that. we all agree it is an investment in them. it's about maintaining that investment in young people, in the future of our society, in bringing people together, in pushing people sometimes out of their comfort zone, and perhaps pump priming a lifelong habit of volunteering which is good for the inevitable and society. isn't this actually quite an obvious attempt to grab the attention of a certain kind of voter, as we have seen from the front pages today, a return to good old national service, but when you explain the detail, it is nothing like that. irate but when you explain the detail, it is nothing like that.— is nothing like that. we have said it is a modern _

is nothing like that. we have said it is a modern approach _ is nothing like that. we have said it is a modern approach to - is nothing like that. we have said it is a modern approach to a i is nothing like that. we have said i it is a modern approach to a modern phenomenon. some of it is about the military, and ifor phenomenon. some of it is about the military, and i for example phenomenon. some of it is about the military, and ifor example have loved every minute that i have spent in uniform, but we totally recognise thatis in uniform, but we totally recognise that is not for everybody and we would neverforce that is not for everybody and we would never force anyone into the military. there is a huge amount of community orientated work. that 25 daysin community orientated work. that 25 days in the first year will be compulsory but we are hoping and expecting that it will trigger in many people that lifelong commitment to volunteering, which is of huge benefit to society as a whole and to them as individuals.— them as individuals. let's talk about society _ them as individuals. let's talk about society as _ them as individuals. let's talk about society as a _ them as individuals. let's talk about society as a whole i them as individuals. let's talk about society as a whole in i them as individuals. let's talk about society as a whole in a l about society as a whole in a different way. the conservatives like to portray themselves as the party of law and order. you are the home secretary. to show people what happened last year in england and wales, knife crime went up by 7%. in london under labour. robberies i wales, knife crime went up by 7%. in i london under labour. robberies going u - , london under labour. robberies going up. shoplifting- _ london under labour. robberies going up, shoplifting. these _ london under labour. robberies going up, shoplifting. these are _ london under labour. robberies going up, shoplifting. these are national- up, shoplifting. these are national

figures from the office of national statistics. the figures from the office of national statistics. , ., .. ., , statistics. the distorting factor is the im act statistics. the distorting factor is the impact of _ statistics. the distorting factor is the impact of london, _ statistics. the distorting factor is the impact of london, to - statistics. the distorting factor is the impact of london, to take i statistics. the distorting factor is| the impact of london, to take the top one... the impact of london, to take the top one- - -— top one... these are national fiuures top one... these are national figures and — top one... these are national figures and i _ top one... these are national figures and i would _ top one... these are national figures and i would like i top one... these are national figures and i would like you i top one... these are national| figures and i would like you to answer the question. if the record shows that then why should people vote conservative.— vote conservative. taking knife crime at the — vote conservative. taking knife crime at the top _ vote conservative. taking knife crime at the top of _ vote conservative. taking knife crime at the top of your- vote conservative. taking knife crime at the top of your list, i vote conservative. taking knife crime at the top of your list, if| crime at the top of your list, if you take labour run london out of the equation then that figure would be down. on that timeframe it is up by 22% in labour run london. these are the national— by 22% in labour run london. these are the national figures _ by 22% in labour run london. these are the national figures overall. i are the national figures overall. distorted by the labour incompetence in london. the distorted by the labour incompetence in london. , ., . , in london. the number of crimes re orted in london. the number of crimes reported to _ in london. the number of crimes reported to the _ in london. the number of crimes reported to the police _ in london. the number of crimes reported to the police nationallyl in london. the number of crimes i reported to the police nationally in england and wales since you have beenin england and wales since you have been in charge has gone up and up and up. been in charge has gone up and up and u. �* , been in charge has gone up and up andu.�* , ., ., and up. because what we said to the olice and and up. because what we said to the police and two _ and up. because what we said to the police and two communities - and up. because what we said to the police and two communities is i and up. because what we said to the police and two communities is we i police and two communities is we want people to report crime. we have told the police they are to act on every crime report, every reasonable line of inquiry. when you put these national figures, line of inquiry. when you put these nationalfigures, if you line of inquiry. when you put these national figures, if you took the labour run city of london out of

these figures you would see a very different picture. you these figures you would see a very different picture.— different picture. you say you encourage — different picture. you say you encourage people _ different picture. you say you encourage people to - different picture. you say you encourage people to report . different picture. you say you - encourage people to report crime, rightly wrongly, and most people think that's the right thing to do, but when people report crime is the number of charges has gone down significantly. in 2015, 16% of crimes would end in a charge and now it is not even 6%. many of our viewers feel, sometimes they tell the police something or nothing happens. and also many viewers feel they don't bother to call the police because they don't believe anything will happen. we because they don't believe anything will ha en. ~ ., because they don't believe anything will ha en. ~ . ., because they don't believe anything will happen-— because they don't believe anything will haen. ~ . . , will happen. we have made sure the olice are will happen. we have made sure the police are committed _ will happen. we have made sure the police are committed to _ will happen. we have made sure the police are committed to pursue - will happen. we have made sure the | police are committed to pursue every reasonable line of inquiry. when the quantum of reporting increases, which as you say is a good thing, the quantum of charging can increase but the proportion reduce. i don't want to get tied up in the mathematics but your fact checkers can address that. i have instructed the police as home secretary to pursue every reasonable line of

inquiry. we have made it clear we are committed to tackling retail crime for example. we have also put more police officers on the street, an extra 20,000 police on the street to deal with it. fin an extra 20,000 police on the street to deal with it— to deal with it. on that it is important _ to deal with it. on that it is important to _ to deal with it. on that it is important to explain - to deal with it. on that it is important to explain to - to deal with it. on that it is - important to explain to viewers that there are overall more police officers but there are fewer officers but there are fewer officers more weight per 100,000 people and fewer officers as a proportion because the population has increased and that's a very important fact. ten days ago the police were told not to arrest people stop you'll not by me they weren't. because jails are full. that's the situation in 2024, jails are so full that the police have been told by national police chiefs not to make arrests. that letter that went out from

police officers to another police officer is not the instruction i gave. my instructions are clear, to pursue every line of inquiry, to make arrests where arrests are needed. the reason there is pressure on the prison estate is during covid, we decided to not ditch jury trials and i think that is an important principle. and also, do not prioritise the safety of prisoners above the general public. covid began four years ago and you have been warned for months and months and months about the scale of the prison population. and the result has been that senior police officers decided that they didn't have a choice but to tell police officers not to make as many arrests as they might like. is that something to be proud of? well, i have said the _ something to be proud of? well, i have said the instruction - something to be proud of? well, i have said the instruction i - something to be proud of? well, i have said the instruction i gave i something to be proud of? well, i have said the instruction i gave is | have said the instruction i gave is that we do not stop arresting people. that we do not stop arresting --eole. ., , that we do not stop arresting n-eole. ., , , ., ., people. that is the situation you reside people. that is the situation you preside over- —

people. that is the situation you preside over. what _ people. that is the situation you preside over. what we _ people. that is the situation you preside over. what we are - people. that is the situation you i preside over. what we are looking people. that is the situation you - preside over. what we are looking to do is make sure _ preside over. what we are looking to do is make sure the _ preside over. what we are looking to do is make sure the people - preside over. what we are looking to do is make sure the people that - do is make sure the people that should be in prison stay in prison. so we made sure that people who were sent to prison for the most serious crimes, rape, murder, serious sexual assaults, attacks on children, that those people serve longer. and given the opportunity to make that decision, we would make that decision, we would make that decision again. if labour are saying they will let those people out again, 0k, they will let those people out again, ok, that is a conversation that's worth having. we again, ok, that is a conversation that's worth having.— again, ok, that is a conversation that's worth having. we will talk to labour that's worth having. we will talk to labour later _ that's worth having. we will talk to labour later in _ that's worth having. we will talk to labour later in the _ that's worth having. we will talk to labour later in the programme. . that's worth having. we will talk to | labour later in the programme. but we are labour later in the programme. elf we are determined to labour later in the programme. emit we are determined to pursue every reasonable line of inquiry, we will put people through the criminal justice system. i put people through the criminal justice system.— put people through the criminal 'ustice s stem. ., ., ., ,, ., justice system. i want to talk about immigration _ justice system. i want to talk about immigration because _ justice system. i want to talk about immigration because viewers - justice system. i want to talk about immigration because viewers care i immigration because viewers care deeply about this and you have been talking about the rwanda scheme for more than two years, yet we have seen a record number of people small boats this year making dangerous crossings, more than 10,000, and thatis crossings, more than 10,000, and that is up by a third compared to the same period last year. you haven't remotely got a grip of this,

haven't remotely got a grip of this, have you? haven't remotely got a grip of this, have ou? ~ ., haven't remotely got a grip of this, have ou? ~ . ., , , haven't remotely got a grip of this, have ou? ~ . . , , ., have you? what we have seen is a very challenging — have you? what we have seen is a very challenging situation - have you? what we have seen is a very challenging situation and - have you? what we have seen is a very challenging situation and it i have you? what we have seen is a very challenging situation and it isj very challenging situation and it is a global challenging situation, i have discussed this with my global counterparts. no—one's pretending it's easy. but the rwanda scheme is about adding a deterrent factor. the small boats operational commands which has been up and running for about a year it has integrated our response across uk government and with our international partners. the numbers have been going up and you have been talking about this for years. have been talking about this for ears. ~ ., , have been talking about this for ears. ~ . , ., ., ., years. we have set out what we are auoin to years. we have set out what we are going to do. — years. we have set out what we are going to do, including _ years. we have set out what we are going to do, including rwanda - years. we have set out what we are going to do, including rwanda and. going to do, including rwanda and the maintenance of the small boats operational command and other things to push these figures down. compare that with labour who have said they will scrap the rwanda scheme and they are going to do less. their biggest announcement about immigration is the creation of a border command, that already exists. james cleverly, you have more than 100,000 people. james cleverly, you have more than 100,000 people-— 100,000 people. they either didn't

know the small _ 100,000 people. they either didn't know the small boats _ 100,000 people. they either didn't know the small boats operational. know the small boats operational command exists or they are lying to the british people about its existence, i'm curious to which one. we will talk to labour later, you have a record number of people having made the dangerous crossing across the channel.— across the channel. labour say they will do less — across the channel. labour say they will do less and _ across the channel. labour say they will do less and achieve _ across the channel. labour say they will do less and achieve more, - across the channel. labour say they will do less and achieve more, it - will do less and achieve more, it does make sense. you will do less and achieve more, it does make sense.— will do less and achieve more, it does make sense. you have 100,000 --eole does make sense. you have 100,000 people stuck— does make sense. you have 100,000 people stuck in _ does make sense. you have 100,000 people stuck in the _ does make sense. you have 100,000 people stuck in the asylum _ does make sense. you have 100,000 people stuck in the asylum system, l people stuck in the asylum system, you have been a charge for 14 years and there are more than 100,000 people stuck in the asylum system. there is a record number of small boat crossings, it is up by a third compared to last year. can you really look at our viewers straight in the eye and say that you have control this system?— in the eye and say that you have control this system? what we have set out is our _ control this system? what we have set out is our plan. _ control this system? what we have set out is our plan. we _ control this system? what we have set out is our plan. we are - control this system? what we have set out is our plan. we are never i set out is our plan. we are never going to put an amnesty for people that arrived here illegally. you have more _ that arrived here illegally. you have more than _ that arrived here illegally. you have more than 100,000 people stuck in the system living in hotels around the country. we in the system living in hotels around the country.- in the system living in hotels around the country. we have small boats operational _ around the country. we have small boats operational command - around the country. we have small boats operational command up - around the country. we have small| boats operational command up and running for over a year. which labour now claims it will reinvent or rename fire andrea hire, i don't

know what they are planning. we have the rwanda scheme and other things we are doing —— fire—and—rehire. this is an incredibly challenging situation. ., ., ., ., ., situation. you have got control of this, have — situation. you have got control of this. have you? _ situation. you have got control of this, have you? which _ situation. you have got control of this, have you? which is - situation. you have got control of this, have you? which is why - situation. you have got control of this, have you? which is why i i situation. you have got control of. this, have you? which is why i think the lack of a — this, have you? which is why i think the lack of a plan _ this, have you? which is why i think the lack of a plan the _ this, have you? which is why i think the lack of a plan the labour - this, have you? which is why i think the lack of a plan the labour party | the lack of a plan the labour party have got is key. and the other point is, one of the reasons why rwanda is not up and running, the rwanda scheme is not up and running yet, is because over 130 times, the labour party have voted against toughening up party have voted against toughening up borders. irate party have voted against toughening u- borders. ~ ., ., ., up borders. we were taught to labour later in the programme. _ up borders. we were taught to labour later in the programme. ask - up borders. we were taught to labour later in the programme. ask them - up borders. we were taught to labour| later in the programme. ask them why the are later in the programme. ask them why they are being — later in the programme. ask them why they are being so _ later in the programme. ask them why they are being so dishonest _ later in the programme. ask them why they are being so dishonest about - they are being so dishonest about their own records. why they are against our proposal is 130 times. you have been in charge 14 years, your party, we want to hear how you describe and account for your own record. when it comes to illegal migration, you are a proud brexiteer and you can paint alongside the big red bus. legal migration that our

politicians have control of has gone up politicians have control of has gone up to record levels —— you campaigned alongside. it hasjust gone down, you have made changes, but it is historically much higher thanit but it is historically much higher than it was, 685,000 on recent numbers, 685,000 people illegally coming here. is that what people were promised by your government when initially you said you get the numbers down to 100,000 during the referendum met you said you would take back control and here you are with that size of number stop many colleagues in your own party believe you have used immigration to get cheap labour into this country and to prop up the economies of universities around the country. since becoming home secretary, i took action in my first few weeks announcing those figures coming down. what we have seen is a visa route which was designed to make sure we had health and social care workers. what we actually have seen is those visa routes be utilised far more than wanted, which is why we

have tightened the measures on those. we have made sure with the minimum salary threshold that we are not importing labour which undercuts british workers. and once again, laura, all those things were opposed by the labour party. so we are taking action and we have a plan and we will set that plan out during this general election campaign and people canjudge again, no it's easy, but we have set out a plan which has been opposed at every step by the labour party, who have now had this road to damascus conversion to border control when they voted against every single one of our border measures. over and over and over again. we have a plan and they don't and they are not being honest with voters. brute don't and they are not being honest with voters-— with voters. we will talk to labour later in the _ with voters. we will talk to labour later in the programme _ with voters. we will talk to labour later in the programme and - with voters. we will talk to labour later in the programme and you i with voters. we will talk to labour. later in the programme and you have made that point already and our viewers want to hear about your own records. you are entitled to go after your opponents and labour will do that, but people want to hear

about your own record. onjuly do that, but people want to hear about your own record. on july 4th, you are asking the public to give you are asking the public to give you another chance at a time in office when people have been relatively poorer, the nhs has got tougher, waiting lists have gone up, immigration is much higher than when you took office in 2010. can you really hand on heart, not least because you have had five different prime ministers, tell our viewers this morning this country safer, better run than it was in 2010? well, we have had to deal with some unprecedented circumstances including a global pandemic and a vicious war in europe, two things which were completely unpredicted and unpredictable. and yet, our record is that the prime minister when chancellor brought in the furlough scheme which was notjust about saving lives, also about saving livelihoods. we had first vaccine roll—out in the world, incredibly proud of that. we decided to come out of lockdown, which means

our economy is growing faster than most of our international comparators. if had not been for the public sector strikes which labour supported, waiting lists in the nhs would have come down. i was in wales the day before yesterday, nhs run wales significantly longer waiting lists. so yes, i am wales significantly longer waiting lists. so yes, iam proud wales significantly longer waiting lists. so yes, i am proud of how we dealt with, and our support to ukraine, incredibly difficult issues. and we have a plan for the future and the labour party have a vacuum where they're planning should be. ., vacuum where they're planning should be. . , , . vacuum where they're planning should be. . ,. ., vacuum where they're planning should be. tax buckles. we would talk to labour be. tax buckles. we would talk to labour later _ be. tax buckles. we would talk to labour later in _ be. tax buckles. we would talk to labour later in the _ be. tax buckles. we would talk to labour later in the programme. . be. tax buckles. we would talk to labour later in the programme. a| be. tax buckles. we would talk to i labour later in the programme. a lot of your colleagues are off, are you still running as an mp? filth. of your colleagues are off, are you still running as an mp?— still running as an mp? oh, yes, i love being — still running as an mp? oh, yes, i love being an _ still running as an mp? oh, yes, i love being an mp _ still running as an mp? oh, yes, i love being an mp for _ still running as an mp? oh, yes, i love being an mp for braintree - still running as an mp? oh, yes, i | love being an mp for braintree and home secretary and i intend to be both after the next election. james cleverl , both after the next election. james cleverly, thank _ both after the next election. james cleverly, thank you _ both after the next election. james cleverly, thank you for _ both after the next election. james cleverly, thank you for getting - both after the next election. james cleverly, thank you for getting is l cleverly, thank you for getting is going on this exciting election campaign.

let's go to our panel, firstly, nicki, james cleverly says the tories do have a record to be proud of, what did you think of what he was saying, particularly about immigration?— was saying, particularly about immiaration? . , , ., immigration? james is right that it is a very challenging _ immigration? james is right that it is a very challenging issue - immigration? james is right that it is a very challenging issue and - immigration? james is right that it is a very challenging issue and it i is a very challenging issue and it is a very challenging issue and it is global and i think he's right the rwanda scheme is a deterrent, but it is in its very, very early stages. but there are a number of cases that remain unresolved and that matters to the public. as you said, it is an issue that resonates. i was out and about yesterday and for some voters, it will be the issue which they decide the election on.- it will be the issue which they decide the election on. alan, you have your — decide the election on. alan, you have your arms _ decide the election on. alan, you have your arms folded! _ decide the election on. alan, you have your arms folded! body - decide the election on. alan, you - have your arms folded! body language says a lot! have your arms folded! body language sa s a lot! ~ ., have your arms folded! body language sasalot! ~ , says a lot! well, i think the james -- | says a lot! well, i think the james -- i think— says a lot! well, i think the james -- i thinkjames— says a lot! well, i think the james -- i thinkjames is _ says a lot! well, i think the james -- i thinkjames is the _ says a lot! well, i think the james -- i thinkjames is the sixth - says a lot! well, i think the james | -- i thinkjames is the sixth home —— i thinkjames is the sixth home secretary— —— i thinkjames is the sixth home secretary succeeding me, they cut police _ secretary succeeding me, they cut police numbers by a fit, they have cut prison — police numbers by a fit, they have cut prison officer numbers by a fifth _ cut prison officer numbers by a fifth we — cut prison officer numbers by a fifth. we are talking about this front—page story this morning about compulsory voluntary service. they

cut army _ compulsory voluntary service. they cut army numbers by a quarter. so if there _ cut army numbers by a quarter. so if there is— cut army numbers by a quarter. so if there is any— cut army numbers by a quarter. so if there is any argument here, it is how— there is any argument here, it is how you — there is any argument here, it is how you build up our armed forces, not how'd _ how you build up our armed forces, not how'd you get 18—year—olds? from what i _ not how'd you get 18—year—olds? from what i heard, — not how'd you get 18—year—olds? from what i heard, this is compulsory volunteering. it is very mixed up, it will_ volunteering. it is very mixed up, it will never— volunteering. it is very mixed up, it will never happen, it isjust a front— it will never happen, it isjust a front page _ it will never happen, it isjust a front page story on a sunday. is front page story on a sunday. is that front page story on a sunday. that fair? i front page story on a sunday. is that fair? i don't think that is fair and i understand why the labour party want to characterise it in that way. i think this is a scheme for young people and as former education secretary, the more opportunity to young people have to broaden their skills and particularly in something like cyber to set them up well for the workplace and broadening their horizons, this has to be a good thing. i think any parent of teenagers knows how they are stuck behind their digital screens and the opportunity to get them out has got to be a good thing. thea;r opportunity to get them out has got to be a good thing.— to be a good thing. they have the opportunity _ to be a good thing. they have the opportunity now. _ to be a good thing. they have the opportunity now, nicky. - to be a good thing. they have the opportunity now, nicky. this - to be a good thing. they have the opportunity now, nicky. this is i opportunity now, nicky. this is about— opportunity now, nicky. this is about forcing them, forcing people to do— about forcing them, forcing people to do this — about forcing them, forcing people to do this. ,, ., ., ., ., about forcing them, forcing people to dothis. ,, ., ., ., ., about forcing them, forcing people todothis. ,, ., ., ., ., . , to do this. sharon, among so many professional— to do this. sharon, among so many professional accomplishments, - to do this. sharon, among so many professional accomplishments, you also have some teenagers, what do

you think of this idea? i also have some teenagers, what do you think of this idea?— you think of this idea? i have a 153-year-old — you think of this idea? i have a 19-year-old and _ you think of this idea? i have a 19-year-old and a _ you think of this idea? i have a | 19-year-old and a 17-year-old. you think of this idea? i have a - 19-year-old and a 17-year-old. what 19—year—old and a 17—year—old. what is interesting — 19—year—old and a 17—year—old. what is interesting on _ 19—year—old and a 17—year—old. what is interesting on the _ 19—year—old and a 17—year—old. what is interesting on the national- is interesting on the national conscription _ is interesting on the national conscription idea _ is interesting on the national conscription idea and - is interesting on the national conscription idea and also i is interesting on the national conscription idea and also on is interesting on the national- conscription idea and also on the immigration _ conscription idea and also on the immigration is _ conscription idea and also on the immigration is when _ conscription idea and also on the immigration is when not - conscription idea and also on thel immigration is when not spending enough _ immigration is when not spending enough time _ immigration is when not spending enough time talking _ immigration is when not spending enough time talking about - immigration is when not spending enough time talking about skills l immigration is when not spending. enough time talking about skills and education _ enough time talking about skills and education we — enough time talking about skills and education. we run— enough time talking about skills and education. we run lots— enough time talking about skills and education. we run lots of— education. we run lots of apprenticeships- education. we run lots of apprenticeships for- education. we run lots of apprenticeships for lots l education. we run lots of| apprenticeships for lots of education. we run lots of. apprenticeships for lots of 16 education. we run lots of- apprenticeships for lots of 16 and 17 and _ apprenticeships for lots of 16 and 17 and 18—year—olds, _ apprenticeships for lots of 16 and 17 and 18—year—olds, they- apprenticeships for lots of 16 and 17 and 18—year—olds, they may i apprenticeships for lots of 16 and i 17 and 18—year—olds, they may not apprenticeships for lots of 16 and - 17 and 18—year—olds, they may not be destined _ 17 and 18—year—olds, they may not be destined for— 17 and 18—year—olds, they may not be destined for university— 17 and 18—year—olds, they may not be destined for university and _ 17 and 18—year—olds, they may not be destined for university and they - 17 and 18—year—olds, they may not be destined for university and they mayl destined for university and they may want to— destined for university and they may want to have — destined for university and they may want to have a — destined for university and they may want to have a great _ destined for university and they may want to have a great career, - destined for university and they may want to have a great career, but - destined for university and they may want to have a great career, but we | want to have a great career, but we want _ want to have a great career, but we want to _ want to have a great career, but we want to have — want to have a great career, but we want to have more _ want to have a great career, but we want to have more apprenticeshipsl want to have more apprenticeships which _ want to have more apprenticeships which at _ want to have more apprenticeships which at the — want to have more apprenticeships which at the moment _ want to have more apprenticeships which at the moment of— want to have more apprenticeships which at the moment of falling. . want to have more apprenticeshipsl which at the moment of falling. and you have _ which at the moment of falling. and you have businesses _ which at the moment of falling. and you have businesses like _ which at the moment of falling. and you have businesses like ours- which at the moment of falling. and you have businesses like ours and l you have businesses like ours and others _ you have businesses like ours and others that — you have businesses like ours and others that want _ you have businesses like ours and others that want to _ you have businesses like ours and others that want to be _ you have businesses like ours and others that want to be investing l others that want to be investing more, _ others that want to be investing more. but — others that want to be investing more. but the _ others that want to be investing more, but the way _ others that want to be investing more, but the way in _ others that want to be investing more, but the way in which - others that want to be investing more, but the way in which the i more, but the way in which the financing — more, but the way in which the financing works _ more, but the way in which the financing works means - more, but the way in which the financing works means fewer. more, but the way in which the - financing works means fewer young people _ financing works means fewer young people are — financing works means fewer young people are going _ financing works means fewer young people are going down— financing works means fewer young people are going down the - people are going down the apprenticeship _ people are going down the apprenticeship route. - people are going down the apprenticeship route. so l people are going down the apprenticeship route. so i| people are going down the - apprenticeship route. so i would like much — apprenticeship route. so i would like much more _ apprenticeship route. so i would like much more conversation - apprenticeship route. so i would i like much more conversation about how we _ like much more conversation about how we are — like much more conversation about how we are improving _ like much more conversation about how we are improving the - like much more conversation about how we are improving the skills - like much more conversation about how we are improving the skills of| how we are improving the skills of our young — how we are improving the skills of our young people. _ how we are improving the skills of ouryoung people. i_ how we are improving the skills of ouryoung people, ithink- how we are improving the skills of our young people, i think that - how we are improving the skills of| our young people, i think that also helps _ our young people, i think that also helps with— our young people, i think that also helps with the _ our young people, i think that also helps with the immigration - helps with the immigration discussing _ helps with the immigration discussing.— helps with the immigration discussinu. ., ' . , ., discussing. how difficult is it as a home secretary _ discussing. how difficult is it as a home secretary to _ discussing. how difficult is it as a home secretary to get _ discussing. how difficult is it as a home secretary to get to - discussing. how difficult is it as a home secretary to get to grips i discussing. how difficult is it as a i home secretary to get to grips with immigration? james cleverly was keen to say labour doesn't have a plan thatis to say labour doesn't have a plan that is different to ours apart from not doing rwanda. it

that is different to ours apart from not doing rwanda.— not doing rwanda. it was difficult, but we did it, _ not doing rwanda. it was difficult, but we did it, it— not doing rwanda. it was difficult, but we did it, it took _ not doing rwanda. it was difficult, but we did it, it took as _ not doing rwanda. it was difficult, but we did it, it took as a - not doing rwanda. it was difficult, but we did it, it took as a long - but we did it, it took as a long time _ but we did it, it took as a long time to— but we did it, it took as a long time to turn around those asylum figures _ time to turn around those asylum figures. we were doing 80% within six months — figures. we were doing 80% within six months by the time we left government. this is the real problem. _ government. this is the real problem, it is now taking three or four years — problem, it is now taking three or four years. so by the end of our time _ four years. so by the end of our time in— four years. so by the end of our time in office, public confidence in the police — time in office, public confidence in the police was at its highest level, police _ the police was at its highest level, police numbers were at their highest level~ _ police numbers were at their highest level~ i_ police numbers were at their highest level. i would think after 14 years, he would — level. i would think after 14 years, he would have had more to boast about— he would have had more to boast about and — he would have had more to boast about and james managed. let�*s he would have had more to boast about and james managed. let's talk about and james managed. let's talk about the overall _ about and james managed. let's talk about the overall picture. _ about and james managed. let's talk about the overall picture. every - about the overall picture. every week, we are going to get our panellists to give a thumbs up or thumbs down asking who won the week. rishi sunak kicked it all off on wednesday in the pouring rain. he didn't get that much better in the first couple of days when he went to northern ireland. he went to the titanic quarter and unsurprisingly, he was asked this. prime minister, we are just yards away from where the titanic was built and designed. are you captaining a sinking ship

going into this election? so far, so smooth for labour. keir starmer went straight to one of his favourite locations, a football ground, in gillingham in kent. but it may not always be and is —— as smooth and happy as that as the campaign proceeds. the snp first minister, john swinney, couldn't resist drawing attention to the election date — the 4th ofjuly. onjuly the 4th, independence day, make sure your voice is heard. see what he did there? ed davey, the lib dem leader, cracked on touring the lib dems' target seats in the south of england — around 80 or so places where they reckon they have a chance of outing the conservatives. we'll hear from the lib dems and snp, and the greens and plaid, too, in the weeks to come. nicky, who won the week? i think the prime minister _ nicky, who won the week? i think the prime minister grabbed _ nicky, who won the week? i think the prime minister grabbed attention - nicky, who won the week? i think the prime minister grabbed attention by i prime minister grabbed attention by calling _ prime minister grabbed attention by calling the election. apart from a very small— calling the election. apart from a very small group of people, he

completely rocked westminster and the country and has forced a lot of people _ the country and has forced a lot of people to — the country and has forced a lot of people to tear up their plans between now and july the 4th. he did crab the between now and july the 4th. he did grab the attention. _ between now and july the 4th. he did grab the attention. i _ between now and july the 4th. he did grab the attention. i think— between now and july the 4th. he did grab the attention. i think i _ between now and july the 4th. he did grab the attention. i think i heard - grab the attention. i think i heard things can only get wetter in the background. it was a disastrous launch. they have should have had it inside number ten and that alone will be the image. i inside number ten and that alone will be the image.— inside number ten and that alone will be the image. i don't think you can have it — will be the image. i don't think you can have it inside _ will be the image. i don't think you can have it inside number- will be the image. i don't think you can have it inside number ten - will be the image. i don't think you can have it inside number ten with | will be the image. i don't think you | can have it inside number ten with a political— can have it inside number ten with a political announcement. can have it inside number ten with a politicalannouncement. one can have it inside number ten with a political announcement. one thing you can't— political announcement. one thing you can't control in the campaign is the great _ you can't control in the campaign is the great british weather. he�*s you can't control in the campaign is the great british weather.— the great british weather. he's the prime minister. _ the great british weather. he's the prime minister. even _ the great british weather. he's the prime minister. even the - the great british weather. he's the prime minister. even the prime . prime minister. even the prime minister can't _ prime minister. even the prime minister can't control— prime minister. even the prime minister can't control the - prime minister. even the prime i minister can't control the weather. somewhere indoors.— minister can't control the weather. somewhere indoors. looking at it as a voter, sharon, _ somewhere indoors. looking at it as a voter, sharon, who _ somewhere indoors. looking at it as a voter, sharon, who won _ somewhere indoors. looking at it as a voter, sharon, who won the - somewhere indoors. looking at it as| a voter, sharon, who won the week? somewhere indoors. looking at it as i a voter, sharon, who won the week? i think of all the umbrellas we sell atjohn_ think of all the umbrellas we sell atjohn lewis. _ think of all the umbrellas we sell atjohn lewis, during _ think of all the umbrellas we sell atjohn lewis, during that - think of all the umbrellas we selll atjohn lewis, during that launch, the drip— atjohn lewis, during that launch, the drip dry— atjohn lewis, during that launch, the drip dry scenes. _ atjohn lewis, during that launch, the drip dry scenes. i— atjohn lewis, during that launch, the drip dry scenes. ithink- atjohn lewis, during that launch, the drip dry scenes. i think from i the drip dry scenes. i think from the drip dry scenes. i think from the country's _ the drip dry scenes. i think from the country's perspective, - the drip dry scenes. i think from the country's perspective, the i the drip dry scenes. i think from i the country's perspective, the fact the country's perspective, the fact the elections _ the country's perspective, the fact the elections have _ the country's perspective, the fact the elections have been— the country's perspective, the fact the elections have been called - the country's perspective, the fact| the elections have been called this a very— the elections have been called this a very good — the elections have been called this a very good thing _ the elections have been called this a very good thing. uncertainty- the elections have been called this a very good thing. uncertainty for| a very good thing. uncertainty for all of— a very good thing. uncertainty for

all of us _ a very good thing. uncertainty for all of us has — a very good thing. uncertainty for all of us has been _ a very good thing. uncertainty for all of us has been pretty- a very good thing. uncertainty for all of us has been pretty wearing. what _ all of us has been pretty wearing. what about— all of us has been pretty wearing. what about what _ all of us has been pretty wearing. what about what you _ all of us has been pretty wearing. what about what you have - all of us has been pretty wearing. what about what you have heard i all of us has been pretty wearing. i what about what you have heard so far? forget the weather malfunction, campaigns are long and everyone will make gaffes. in terms of what we have heard from the parties has anything impressed you? it’s have heard from the parties has anything impressed you? it's too earl to anything impressed you? it's too early to judge — anything impressed you? it's too early to judge by _ anything impressed you? it's too early to judge. by week - anything impressed you? it's too early to judge. by week three - anything impressed you? it's too | early to judge. by week three and four, _ early to judge. by week three and four, that's — early to judge. by week three and four, that's when _ early to judge. by week three and four, that's when things - early to judge. by week three and four, that's when things start - early to judge. by week three and four, that's when things start to i four, that's when things start to -et four, that's when things start to get interesting _ four, that's when things start to get interesting, particularly- four, that's when things start to. get interesting, particularly when announcements— get interesting, particularly when announcements and _ get interesting, particularly when announcements and plans - get interesting, particularly when announcements and plans reallyl get interesting, particularly when - announcements and plans really start to get _ announcements and plans really start to get scrutinised. _ announcements and plans really start to get scrutinised. i'm _ announcements and plans really start to get scrutinised. i'm holding - announcements and plans really start to get scrutinised. i'm holding my. to get scrutinised. i'm holding my fire for— to get scrutinised. i'm holding my fire for a — to get scrutinised. i'm holding my fire for a few— to get scrutinised. i'm holding my fire for a few weeks. _ to get scrutinised. i'm holding my fire for a few weeks. the - to get scrutinised. i'm holding my fire for a few weeks. the campaigns are lona fire for a few weeks. the campaigns are long and — fire for a few weeks. the campaigns are long and we _ fire for a few weeks. the campaigns are long and we can't _ fire for a few weeks. the campaigns are long and we can't say _ fire for a few weeks. the campaigns are long and we can't say that - are long and we can't say that enough. alan, what are the chances of labour having a panic towards the end? ., , ., . , end? there will not be a panic but there is always _ end? there will not be a panic but there is always a _ end? there will not be a panic but there is always a wobble. - end? there will not be a panic but there is always a wobble. it - end? there will not be a panic but there is always a wobble. it is - end? there will not be a panic but there is always a wobble. it is a i there is always a wobble. it is a six—week campaign, very long, and plenty of warbling time. six-week campaign, very long, and plenty of warbling time.— plenty of warbling time. mickey, what are the _ plenty of warbling time. mickey, what are the chances _ plenty of warbling time. mickey, what are the chances of- plenty of warbling time. mickey, what are the chances of your - plenty of warbling time. mickey, i what are the chances of your party managing to put it together? a lot of your colleagues are very despondent.— of your colleagues are very despondent. of your colleagues are very desondent. , . , ., despondent. there is always an element of _ despondent. there is always an element of shock _ despondent. there is always an element of shock when - despondent. there is always an element of shock when an - despondent. there is always an . element of shock when an election despondent. there is always an - element of shock when an election is

called. _ element of shock when an election is called, particularly when you don't quite _ called, particularly when you don't quite expect it. it means a lot, for employees. — quite expect it. it means a lot, for employees, mps, candidates having to uproot _ employees, mps, candidates having to uproot their— employees, mps, candidates having to uproot their lives. what the conservative party does is when facing _ conservative party does is when facing the — conservative party does is when facing the country and the electorate it will actually pull together. electorate it will actually pull touether. ~ , advice, perhaps, from our panel, but what is the overall picture? every week, the nation's favourite pollster and professor sirjohn curtice is going to keep us right on where the numbers are moving. we've challenged him to tell us what you need to know, in 60 seconds, every sunday. the polls were not propitious. when rain—soaked rishi sunak announced a 4th ofjuly election, on average they put his party 21 points behind. conservatives were averaging just 23%, while labour were on 44%. in scotland, labour are ahead of the snp by six points and could gain 30 seats.

to retain the keys to downing street, mr sunak needs either a record campaign swing, or for the polls to be wrong and have their worst election ever. he will try first to squeeze reform, who, with 11% support, have won over one in five 2019 tory voters. however, the first polls of the campaign suggest that support for reform and labour's lead are unchanged, and mr sunak simply cannot afford to be stuck in neutral. so the big question — can labour keep that lead? and whether it is real when it gets to the ballot box. their number—one task has always been to persuade you they can be trusted with your money. the woman with that job is rachel reeves. it's a huge responsibility so there are huge questions for you. what would your priority be first and

foremost?— would your priority be first and foremost? , ., ., ., ., , foremost? first of all we are really leased to foremost? first of all we are really pleased to fight — foremost? first of all we are really pleased to fight the _ foremost? first of all we are really pleased to fight the election - foremost? first of all we are really pleased to fight the election on . foremost? first of all we are really| pleased to fight the election on the economy, that's why i'm here on the first sunday of the election campaign. because after 14 years the conservatives have failed. it will be the first parliament ever where living standards are lower at the end than they were at the beginning. my end than they were at the beginning. my number one commitment is to bring civility back to the economy. stability is change after 14 years of chaos and decline. we will do that with tough spending rules, a fiscal lock, so never again can a prime minister and chancellor introduce a budget without an independent forecast. that stability is essential to allow families to plan for the future and businesses to invest with confidence. you plan for the future and businesses to invest with confidence.- to invest with confidence. you say ou have to invest with confidence. you say you have a — to invest with confidence. you say you have a tough _ to invest with confidence. you say you have a tough spending - to invest with confidence. you say you have a tough spending rules i to invest with confidence. you say i you have a tough spending rules and the difficulty for whoever wins the election is making the sums add up to get debt falling, as you and the conservatives both want to do. you will have to make very hard decisions. will you stick with the conservatives' spending plans that

imply a big squeeze on public services? i imply a big squeeze on public services? ., . , imply a big squeeze on public services?— imply a big squeeze on public services? ., ., , ., ., services? i totally agree that the sums have _ services? i totally agree that the sums have to — services? i totally agree that the sums have to add _ services? i totally agree that the sums have to add up, _ services? i totally agree that the sums have to add up, as - services? i totally agree that the sums have to add up, as sharon | services? i totally agree that the i sums have to add up, as sharon on your panel said. a former conservative chancellor said they didn't believe in abacus economics. i believe being able to add up with the treasury is essential. i have already announced an immediate injection of cash into front line public services over and above what the conservatives have offered. for example, tightening up rules around non—doms, cracking down on tax avoidance, to fund 40,000 additional appointments every week in the nhs. you know the commitments you have made so far are tiny compared to the overall tax take of around 1 trillion. will you stick with the broad shape of the tories up to be spending plans, a fundamental question? spending plans, a fundamental ruestion? ., , , ., question? no, because i have announced — question? no, because i have announced immediate - question? no, because i have. announced immediate injections question? no, because i have- announced immediate injections of cash into front line services. another example is extending the windfall tax on the profits of

energy companies to endow a national wealth fund to invest in some low carbon industries of the future. 6500 additional teachers in state schools, by introducing vat and business rates on private schools. you know, with your abacus, whether it's real or metaphorical, that those tax rises, the specific ones you have announced so far, are tiny when you look at the scale of the overall budget and the overall challenge that does suggest, unless you tax a lot more or borrow more, which you don't want to do, that you will have to cut services, potentially quite significantly. i don't accept that 40,000 additional appointments a week in the nhs or 6500 teachers in state schools is small. but i am under no illusion about the scale of the challenge i will inherit if i become chancellor of the exchequer in less than six weeks' time. the debt is almost 100% of gdp. the tax burden at a 70 year

high. we have to make difficult decisions and we will not be able to put everything right straightaway. difficult decisions mean you will have to make spending cuts, is that what you are saying?— have to make spending cuts, is that what you are saying? looking at the government — what you are saying? looking at the government forecast, _ what you are saying? looking at the government forecast, real - what you are saying? looking at the . government forecast, real government spending will increase 1% each year over the next parliament in real terms. i don't deny there will be difficult decisions within that budget. rishi sunak and jeremy hunt might come on this programme, if they do, and say that everything is all 0k. they do, and say that everything is all ok. i'm not going to say that, i know public services are on their knees. beyond that initial injection of cash, which is important because it will start to turn things around, we have to grow our economy. we have to unlock business investment. i know it is there. businesses want to invest but they need that stability and that partnership with government to reform the planning system, skills system so we can get

investment going. we skills system so we can get investment going. skills system so we can get investment uuoin. . ., ~ ., investment going. we talked about that at great _ investment going. we talked about that at great length _ investment going. we talked about that at great length when - investment going. we talked about that at great length when you - investment going. we talked about that at great length when you are i that at great length when you are here last time and explained the plan. this is a really important question and i think you are hinting at it but not being candid about it. you say difficult decisions, you say tough decisions. that means outside of the health service and outside some other specific things that are always protected in government, it does, does it not, mean cuts to some public service spending?— public service spending? there's not aoian public service spending? there's not aoain to be public service spending? there's not going to be a — public service spending? there's not going to be a return _ public service spending? there's not going to be a return to _ public service spending? there's not going to be a return to austerity - going to be a return to austerity under a labour government. that's not the question. _ under a labour government. that's not the question. we _ under a labour government. that's not the question. we had - under a labour government. that's not the question. we had austerity| not the question. we had austerity for five years _ not the question. we had austerity for five years and _ not the question. we had austerity for five years and that's _ not the question. we had austerity for five years and that's part - not the question. we had austerity for five years and that's part of. for five years and that's part of the reason the economy and public services are in a mess today. the government haven't done a spending review so there is no allocations for departments. i would review so there is no allocations for departments. iwould have review so there is no allocations for departments. i would have to do that if i became chancellor in a few weeks' time and i would set out those plans. but under labour... would you cut public spending in

some areas? we would you cut public spending in some areas?— would you cut public spending in some areas? . ., ., , . ,, some areas? we are not bringing back austeri . some areas? we are not bringing back austerity- we — some areas? we are not bringing back austerity. we have _ some areas? we are not bringing back austerity. we have an _ some areas? we are not bringing back austerity. we have an immediate - austerity. we have an immediate injection of cash into public services, that a down payment on the changes we want to make. we have to turn around this dire economic performance. turn around this dire economic performance-— turn around this dire economic rerformance. , , ., ., , , performance. this is an absolutely fundamental— performance. this is an absolutely fundamental point, _ performance. this is an absolutely fundamental point, all— performance. this is an absolutely fundamental point, all sorts - performance. this is an absolutely fundamental point, all sorts of. fundamental point, all sorts of economic experts, people like paul johnson, a well respected independent number crunch. looking at the state of the books right now, the plans that have been set out imply clearly there will have to be cuts to some parts of public spending. i'm hearing you not wanting to admit that, but you are also not ruling that out. we wanting to admit that, but you are also not ruling that out.— also not ruling that out. we are in also not ruling that out. we are in a very unusual — also not ruling that out. we are in a very unusual situation _ also not ruling that out. we are in a very unusual situation where . a very unusual situation where halfway through the year we have no spending plans for the next financial year and that's because the government haven't done those plans. so i will inherit a situation with no departmental allocations for any department. we with no departmental allocations for any department-— with no departmental allocations for any department. we are asking what ou would

any department. we are asking what you would do. _ any department. we are asking what you would do. so _ any department. we are asking what you would do, so that _ any department. we are asking what you would do, so that spending - you would do, so that spending review, would you rule out making cuts to public spending? i review, would you rule out making cuts to public spending?— cuts to public spending? i don't want to make _ cuts to public spending? i don't want to make any _ cuts to public spending? i don't want to make any cuts - cuts to public spending? i don't want to make any cuts to - cuts to public spending? i don'tj want to make any cuts to public spending which is why we have announced an immediate injection of cash into public services so that money for the nhs and the additional 13,000 additional police and community support officers, and the 6500 additional teachers in schools, they are all fully costed, fully funded promises. unless things are fully costed and fully funded frankly you can't believe they will happen. our plans are all fully costed and fully funded. you don't want to make _ costed and fully funded. you don't want to make cuts, _ costed and fully funded. you don't want to make cuts, you _ costed and fully funded. you don't want to make cuts, you don't - costed and fully funded. you don'tj want to make cuts, you don't want costed and fully funded. you don't . want to make cuts, you don't want to borrow more. if you want to spend more on public services and don't want to make cuts then you could put up want to make cuts then you could put up taxes. some of should do this. peter, retired, says he wants to pay more tax to ensure correct funding of local services and the nhs. don't treat voters naively. why not put up taxes, that's what the tories claim you will do. taxes, that's what the tories claim you will do-— you will do. there is nothing in the manifesto where _

you will do. there is nothing in the manifesto where we _ you will do. there is nothing in the manifesto where we haven't - you will do. there is nothing in the manifesto where we haven't said i manifesto where we haven't said where the money will come from. we have made those commitments. vat on business rates on private schools, private equity bosses will be taxed properly on their bonuses. an extension of the windfall tax so energy profits are properly taxed_ ensuring non—doms pay theirfair share of tax in the country they live in. and cracking down on tax avoidance which costs the economy billions every year. those are the commitments we have made and that is what we will use to provide that injection of cash into public services. injection of cash into public services-— injection of cash into public services. . . ., ., ~ ., , services. what we want to know is what else you _ services. what we want to know is what else you might _ services. what we want to know is what else you might do. _ services. what we want to know is what else you might do. those . services. what we want to know is| what else you might do. those are the commitments _ what else you might do. those are the commitments we _ what else you might do. those are the commitments we have - what else you might do. those are the commitments we have made i what else you might do. those are i the commitments we have made and thatis the commitments we have made and that is how we will fund them. beyond that, we have to grow the economy. it is why we have said we would reform the planning system to get britain building again. it's why woody we would introduce a modern industrial strategy to get businesses to invest. it's why sharon said, we would reform apprenticeship levies so businesses can invest in the skills they need

to help young people succeed and get on in life. if we do those things i know, because we have seen the huge potential we have is a country, we can grow the economy, and that's the way we can improve living standards and also have the money for public services. there are no short cuts, that's the key point. there are no short points when we want to grow the economy. you short points when we want to grow the economy-— short points when we want to grow the econom . ., .. �* ., ., , ., the economy. you can't guarantee you can arow the economy. you can't guarantee you can grow the _ the economy. you can't guarantee you can grow the economy _ the economy. you can't guarantee you can grow the economy and _ the economy. you can't guarantee you can grow the economy and you - the economy. you can't guarantee you can grow the economy and you also . can grow the economy and you also can't guarantee, as this government has discovered, there isn't a terrible emergency, another war, conflict, and the pandemic, which cost a huge amount of money and hit them out of the sky. what we are trying to get out of you, on behalf of our viewers, is what you are due to their pay packets and wallets. would you rule out putting up income tax? ~ ., would you rule out putting up income tax? . . ., ., , would you rule out putting up income tax? . . ., ,., ,., tax? what labour want is taxes on workina tax? what labour want is taxes on working people — tax? what labour want is taxes on working people to _ tax? what labour want is taxes on working people to be _ tax? what labour want is taxes on working people to be lower. - tax? what labour want is taxes on working people to be lower. we . tax? what labour want is taxes on | working people to be lower. we will certainly not increase income tax or national insurance if we win the election. ., , ., national insurance if we win the election. . , ., ., election. that is a commitment that ou will election. that is a commitment that you will not — election. that is a commitment that you will not increase _ election. that is a commitment that you will not increase income - election. that is a commitment that

you will not increase income tax? i you will not increase income tax? no, we won't increase income tax or national insurance. in fact, we opposed the increase in national insurance when rishi sunak put it forward for as chancellor. the conservatives have already racked up six to £4 billion of unfunded tax cuts injust three six to £4 billion of unfunded tax cuts in just three days of the campaign. —— 64 billion. i would never put forward unfunded proposals. never put forward unfunded proposals-— never put forward unfunded arroosals. ., ~' ., , never put forward unfunded ”roosals. ., 4' ., , ., proposals. you know very well that unfunded tax _ proposals. you know very well that unfunded tax cuts _ proposals. you know very well that unfunded tax cuts are _ proposals. you know very well that unfunded tax cuts are the - proposals. you know very well that j unfunded tax cuts are the potential costs of long terms aspirations of conservative voters. the conservatives have said over time they would like to phase out national insurance, which would cost a huge amount of money but over time you in the labour party also want to do other things over time like may be changing tuition fees, cutting them or maybe getting rid of the two child benefit cap over time. they are also hugely expensive things that you might like to do over time. and we will not put anything in the

manifesto where we can't say where the money is coming from. in the last few days we have had £46 billion commitment from the government about getting rid of national insurance altogether. the telegraph interview with the chancellor yesterday, he spoke again about getting rid of inheritance tax... , ., ., tax... they are long-term aspirations _ tax... they are long-term aspirations that _ tax... they are long-term aspirations that the - tax... they are long-term - aspirations that the conservatives are putting forward. ii aspirations that the conservatives are putting forward.— are putting forward. if they are in the conservative _ are putting forward. if they are in the conservative manifesto - are putting forward. if they are in the conservative manifesto thenl are putting forward. if they are in - the conservative manifesto then they must be fully funded.— must be fully funded. having spoken with james cleverly _ must be fully funded. having spoken with james cleverly already, - must be fully funded. having spoken with james cleverly already, he - must be fully funded. having spoken with james cleverly already, he was | with james cleverly already, he was trying to put everything onto you as rivals, and you are trying to put a lot of things onto him, as you are entitled to do. our viewers would like to know what you are putting forward. , ., ., , ., forward. everything in our manifesto will be fully funded, _ forward. everything in our manifesto will be fully funded, fully _ forward. everything in our manifesto will be fully funded, fully costed, . will be fully funded, fully costed, and that's an important principle. talking about one of them specifically, at this time a lot of people are worried about the security of the country. you have said you want to spend 2.5% of the economy on defence in time but by

when? economy on defence in time but by when? we economy on defence in time but by when? ~ ., economy on defence in time but by when? . ., ., _, ., ., when? we are not committing to a timescale- — when? we are not committing to a timescale- we _ when? we are not committing to a timescale. we have _ when? we are not committing to a timescale. we have committed . when? we are not committing to a timescale. we have committed in l timescale. we have committed in government to a strategic defence review to make sure we get value for money for all our spending including on defence, where some procurement cost, purchasing new equipment, has frankly gone out of control under this government. we will do a full strategic defence review. again, i come back to the point, if you are going to say you will spend a certain amount of money on something then you have to be absolutely clear whether money will come from. i don't think the conservatives can be honest about that. it is don't think the conservatives can be honest about that.— honest about that. it is not a real commitment _ honest about that. it is not a real commitment by _ honest about that. it is not a real commitment by the _ honest about that. it is not a real commitment by the labour - honest about that. it is not a real commitment by the labour party| honest about that. it is not a real. commitment by the labour party to spend 2.5% because you will have a review after the election. keir said we want to spend more than 2.5% and we did when we were last in government. it is 2.5% and we did when we were last in government-— government. it is not in the context of an election _ government. it is not in the context of an election campaign _ government. it is not in the context of an election campaign unless - government. it is not in the context of an election campaign unless it. government. it is not in the context of an election campaign unless it is| of an election campaign unless it is a firm commitment, it is not something our viewers can trust in.

we will get there as quickly as possible, but i don't think anybody can head any faith in a commitment where there is not money on the table and that is the problem the conservatives are getting into. whether it is this promise today around national service where you are robbing one budget to pay another or what the government has said about defence spending. we have always backed the government over the last parliament whenever they help wanted to put more money into defence and whenever they supported ukraine and whenever they have supported nato, we will always put our national security first. but it is really important to make sure that the summer always add up because when they don't, you go down this liz truss route where you promise a load of stuff and all you end up doing is pushing up interest rates, pushing up people's morgan —— mortgage costs, and taking us backwards as a country and i will never do that with the public finances. ., ., , , . finances. you mentioned the public finances. you mentioned the public finance can — finances. you mentioned the public finance can with _ finances. you mentioned the public finance can with labour— finances. you mentioned the public finance can with labour support - finance can with labour support that? , , , ., ., ,, ., that? this is 'ust another desperate aimmick that? this isjust another desperate gimmick from _ that? this isjust another desperate gimmick from the _ that? this isjust another desperate gimmick from the conservative -

that? this is just another desperate i gimmick from the conservative party. with no viable means of funding it. one minute, they say levelling up is really important and then they raid the level and got budget and say it will be used for national service. and it'sjust will be used for national service. and it's just another example will be used for national service. and it'sjust another example i'm afraid of gimmick where the sums don't add up. afraid of gimmick where the sums don�*t add up. share afraid of gimmick where the sums don't add up— don't add up. are you sure that overall, don't add up. are you sure that overall. you — don't add up. are you sure that overall, you have _ don't add up. are you sure that overall, you have your - don't add up. are you sure that| overall, you have your approach right? gordon brown who i know you admire, former labour chancellor and former prime minister, he said in terms that the two child benefit cap where big families cannot get extra entitlement to benefits should go. he has spoken very passionately about child poverty. if you win, is your government and keir starmer�*s going to be a labour government that chooses not to help those thousands of families in grinding poverty? the labour of families in grinding poverty? iie: labour party of families in grinding poverty? tie: labour party in of families in grinding poverty? iie: labour party in government will reduce child poverty. we have set outjust reduce child poverty. we have set out just this weekend reduce child poverty. we have set outjust this weekend for example the new deal for working outjust this weekend for example the new dealfor working people outjust this weekend for example the new deal for working people to ban exploitative zero—hours

contracts and to end the scourge of fire—and—rehire and turn the minimum wage into a real living wage, to give dignity to people particularly in low paid and insecure work. but those are just some ways in which we are going to begin to tackle child poverty. it are going to begin to tackle child rove . , , , ., poverty. it is interesting you mention that _ poverty. it is interesting you mention that because - poverty. it is interesting you | mention that because gordon poverty. it is interesting you - mention that because gordon brown, who knows about adding the sums up and as the labour chancellor going into 1997 hoping to move into number 11, he said he would not raise income tax and would stick to tory spending plans and now he saying you have got it wrong on the two child benefit cap. brute have got it wrong on the two child benefit cap-— benefit cap. we cannot put everything _ benefit cap. we cannot put everything right _ benefit cap. we cannot put everything right the - benefit cap. we cannot put - everything right the conservatives have done straightaway and our priority is reducing those nhs waiting lists because we have people in some cases waiting for more than a year and in some cases more than two years for a procedure. there is so much that we want to turn around and we have to prioritise. our priority would be those additional appointments in the nhs to cut those waiting list and for those additional teachers in our state schools to give every child is the best possible start in life. hand

schools to give every child is the best possible start in life. and you have made — best possible start in life. and you have made that _ best possible start in life. and you have made that point. _ best possible start in life. and you have made that point. let's - best possible start in life. and you have made that point. let's talk. have made that point. let's talk about workers' rights because you mentioned that and you say there is a ban on zero—hours contracts and fire—and—rehire and your colleague jonathan ashworth sat there last week and said, we are banning fire—and—rehire, but the plan for workers' rights was published late on friday night and it makes very clear firms on friday night and it makes very clearfirms can do on friday night and it makes very clear firms can do fire—and—rehire where they get rid of staff and get them back on the box on worse conditions. it says very clearly they can do it if there are particular circumstances and as long as they follow a process. we particular circumstances and as long as they follow a process.— as they follow a process. we say in that document _ as they follow a process. we say in that document we _ as they follow a process. we say in that document we will _ as they follow a process. we say in that document we will end - that document we will end fire—and—rehire. but when a company is facing bankruptcy and there is no alternative, they will have to consult with their workers and trade unions. those are very, very limited circumstances. we will end fire—and—rehire, which has seen companies like p&0 sack their staff and try and bring them back on worse contracts, that is deplorable and we will not allow that to happen. you

has -- you _ will not allow that to happen. you has -- you have _ will not allow that to happen. you has -- you have said _ will not allow that to happen. you has —— you have said firms can do it if there is restructuring and the general secretary of the unite union sharon graham says she will not support those proposals as they exist and she believes you have broken a promise. she says, how can you justify and roam back your commitment to have an outright ban on fire—and—rehire? allowing a company to do it if they are restructuring is not a complete ban. it is not. we have worked on these proposals with our trade union colleagues. i am sorry sharon feels like that, but we do have the support of our trade union colleagues and i believe this is the biggest ever extension of workplace rights that has ever been introduced if we have that opportunity to do so. so we will get rid of fire—and—rehire, we will get rid of exploitative zero—hours contracts and we will bring forward that legislation to parliament within the first 100 days of a labour government. and i am really excited to do that because if we are going to do that because if we are going to grow our economy we have to ensure that working people have the

security and the dignity of a job that pays a decent wage and where they can plan from one week to the next because they know the number of hours they are going to be doing. and that is an important part of our growth strategy. it is pro—worker. i also believe it is pro—business because i believe that most businesses do not employ these sorts of tactics. but sometimes, they are undercut by bad employers that do. if you make it into office, it will be interesting to see how those proposals unfold and i know the unions will be watching very closely indeed. lastly, you havejoined us indeed. lastly, you havejoined us in the studio many times. next time you are here, if everything goes your way, you will be rachel reeves, chancellor of the exchequer. what goes through your mind when you hear those words?— those words? well, i have been an mp now for 14 years _ those words? well, i have been an mp now for 14 years and _ those words? well, i have been an mp now for 14 years and i _ those words? well, i have been an mp now for 14 years and i think _ those words? well, i have been an mp now for 14 years and i think i _ now for 14 years and i think i probably came on the predecessor to this programme not long after i was first elected. so i have been

through a lot in those years, the labour party has been through a lot, the country has been through a lot. the one job that i have always wanted to do is to be chancellor of the exchequer. i was an economist at the exchequer. i was an economist at the bank of england for many years before i became an mp, i worked in the financial services. i know how to run a successful economy. ijust want the chance to be able to do that and turn this economy around so it actually works for working people in our country again. do you think you are going to make it? we are not complacent, we are fighting for every single vote. but for the first time since i have been an mp, i believe we are in touching distance of doing this. believe we are in touching distance of doing this-— of doing this. rachel reeves, it is alwa s of doing this. rachel reeves, it is always good _ of doing this. rachel reeves, it is always good to — of doing this. rachel reeves, it is always good to have _ of doing this. rachel reeves, it is always good to have you - of doing this. rachel reeves, it is always good to have you in - of doing this. rachel reeves, it is always good to have you in the . always good to have you in the studio, thank you and we will see what the next few weeks bring. we have been listening closely to the claims of rachel reeves and james cleverly and checking the facts. james cleverly said if you exclude london from the statistics on knife crime, the number of offences was falling in england and

wales. london is by no means the only place where knife crime went up. it was up in more than half of police crime areas. when asked, rachel reeves pointed out there are plans for real terms increases of 1% for public spending across the board. that's true, but experts like the institute for fiscal studies have looked at the figures and they say clearly once you factor in spending commitments for departments like the nhs which are protected, some departments will face cuts in current spending plans. so that is our first back check of the election. let's get back to our panel who have been listening intently to rachel reeves. alan johnson, do you think as somebody who was around in the labour days of 1997 when you said clearly you are going to stick to the tory spending plans, do you think the position they have got themselves in where they have got themselves in where they are taking really quite a similar approach apart from only a few billion here and there, is it the right one?—

few billion here and there, is it the right one? yes, if rachel does come back — the right one? yes, if rachel does come back on _ the right one? yes, if rachel does come back on your _ the right one? yes, if rachel does come back on your programme . the right one? yes, if rachel does come back on your programme is | come back on your programme is chancellor of the exchequer, she will be the first woman ever to be chancellor of the exchequer. and i think you saw their someone who is really concentrating on what is good for the country. that question on child poverty was a really good question, laura, because we committed to eradicate child poverty by 2020, it was a big, big pledge. we had halved it by 2010 when we were voted out. and every fibre of racher were voted out. and every fibre of rachel's being and i know her very well would have wanted to say yes to your question, will you tackle that will you get rid of the two child policy? which contributes towards child poverty. yet she restrained herself. and that restraint because she knows that the figures have to add up and previously at general elections, that has not always been the case. you quoted over gordon brown, he resided over 47 successive quarters of growth, we have a record on this and i think rachel is very

good to take that forward. sharon, is it riaht good to take that forward. sharon, is it right do _ good to take that forward. sharon, is it right do you _ good to take that forward. sharon, is it right do you think _ good to take that forward. sharon, is it right do you think labour - good to take that forward. sharon, is it right do you think labour have| is it right do you think labour have chosen to climb into a straitjacket, could they take a different approach or is this the right way to go? it is interesting alan talks about 1997, — is interesting alan talks about 1997, i— is interesting alan talks about 1997, i was a nonpolitical civil servant — 1997, i was a nonpolitical civil servant in _ 1997, i was a nonpolitical civil servant in the number 10 policy unit working _ servant in the number 10 policy unit working for— servant in the number 10 policy unit working for tony blair and the economic— working for tony blair and the economic inheritance was very different _ economic inheritance was very different. growth was stronger, the economy— different. growth was stronger, the economy was stronger. i think the most _ economy was stronger. i think the most important thing is there is an open _ most important thing is there is an open and _ most important thing is there is an open and transparent debate about the choices and trade—offs. was open and transparent debate about the choices and trade-offs. was that 0 en the choices and trade-offs. was that 0 -en and the choices and trade-offs. was that open and transparent? _ the choices and trade-offs. was that open and transparent? you - the choices and trade-offs. was that open and transparent? you could . the choices and trade-offs. was that i open and transparent? you could hear rachel reeves not want to admit that if you look now, it looks like there will be quite painful cuts. it is if you look now, it looks like there will be quite painful cuts.- will be quite painful cuts. it is a very tough _ will be quite painful cuts. it is a very tough inheritance - will be quite painful cuts. it is a very tough inheritance for - will be quite painful cuts. it is a very tough inheritance for any i will be quite painful cuts. it is a . very tough inheritance for any new chancellor — very tough inheritance for any new chancellor to inherit. debt is over, we have _ chancellor to inherit. debt is over, we have more debt in the country than _ we have more debt in the country than we _ we have more debt in the country than we have the size of economy. so whetherm _ than we have the size of economy. so whether... one of the issues isjust as the _ whether... one of the issues isjust as the election campaign runs on is that politicians on either side don't — that politicians on either side don't get _ that politicians on either side don't get themselves into such a

straitjacket or box themselves in either— straitjacket or box themselves in either on — straitjacket or box themselves in either on tax pledges or spending pledges _ either on tax pledges or spending pledges that i that you are having to row— pledges that i that you are having to row back on once you are in power or indeed, _ to row back on once you are in power or indeed, you — to row back on once you are in power or indeed, you give yourself such limited _ or indeed, you give yourself such limited room for manoeuvre. nicky, what did you — limited room for manoeuvre. nicky, what did you think— limited room for manoeuvre. nicky, what did you think of— limited room for manoeuvre. nicky, what did you think of what - limited room for manoeuvre. nicky, what did you think of what you - what did you think of what you heard? i what did you think of what you heard? ., what did you think of what you heard? ~' , , ., heard? i like the suffragette colours she _ heard? i like the suffragette colours she was _ heard? i like the suffragette colours she was wearing, . heard? i like the suffragette| colours she was wearing, but heard? i like the suffragette - colours she was wearing, but there were _ colours she was wearing, but there were a _ colours she was wearing, but there were a lot — colours she was wearing, but there were a lot of — colours she was wearing, but there were a lot of unanswered - colours she was wearing, but there. were a lot of unanswered questions. she is— were a lot of unanswered questions. she is right — were a lot of unanswered questions. she is right to— were a lot of unanswered questions. she is right to say— were a lot of unanswered questions. she is right to say what _ were a lot of unanswered questions. she is right to say what is _ were a lot of unanswered questions. she is right to say what is needed i she is right to say what is needed is a proper— she is right to say what is needed is a proper spending _ she is right to say what is needed is a proper spending review- she is right to say what is needed is a proper spending review and i is a proper spending review and having _ is a proper spending review and having an — is a proper spending review and having an election _ is a proper spending review and having an election at _ is a proper spending review and having an election at this - is a proper spending review and having an election at this point i is a proper spending review and i having an election at this point in the year. — having an election at this point in the year. you _ having an election at this point in the year, you have _ having an election at this point in the year, you have autumn - having an election at this point in the year, you have autumn to - having an election at this point in the year, you have autumn to do| having an election at this point in - the year, you have autumn to do that so the _ the year, you have autumn to do that so the government _ the year, you have autumn to do that so the government departments - the year, you have autumn to do that so the government departments willl so the government departments will have the _ so the government departments will have the rest — so the government departments will have the rest of— so the government departments will have the rest of the _ so the government departments will have the rest of the year. _ so the government departments will have the rest of the year.— have the rest of the year. where the will have the rest of the year. where they will look — have the rest of the year. where they will look at _ have the rest of the year. where they will look at everything. - they will look at everything. exactly, we haven't had multi—year spending _ exactly, we haven't had multi—year spending reviews _ exactly, we haven't had multi—year spending reviews for— exactly, we haven't had multi—year spending reviews for a _ exactly, we haven't had multi—year spending reviews for a while. - exactly, we haven't had multi—year spending reviews for a while. thatl spending reviews for a while. that is important — spending reviews for a while. that is important for— spending reviews for a while. that is important for two _ spending reviews for a while. that is important for two reasons, - spending reviews for a while. that is important for two reasons, one| spending reviews for a while. that i is important for two reasons, one is vat on _ is important for two reasons, one is vat on school — is important for two reasons, one is vat on school these _ is important for two reasons, one is vat on school these and _ is important for two reasons, one is vat on school these and think- is important for two reasons, one is| vat on school these and think about what you _ vat on school these and think about what you make. _ vat on school these and think about what you make, but _ vat on school these and think about what you make, but i _ vat on school these and think about what you make, but i understand - vat on school these and think about what you make, but i understand it. what you make, but i understand it will raise _ what you make, but i understand it will raise less — what you make, but i understand it will raise less than _ what you make, but i understand it will raise less than £2 _ what you make, but i understand it will raise less than £2 million - will raise less than £2 million which — will raise less than £2 million which is — will raise less than £2 million which is not _ will raise less than £2 million which is not going _ will raise less than £2 million which is not going to - will raise less than £2 million which is not going to cover. will raise less than £2 millioni which is not going to cover the school— which is not going to cover the school places _ which is not going to cover the| school places needed if people which is not going to cover the - school places needed if people leave the independent _ school places needed if people leave the independent system _ school places needed if people leave the independent system and - school places needed if people leave the independent system and go- school places needed if people leave the independent system and go to i school places needed if people leave i the independent system and go to the state system — the independent system and go to the state system so — the independent system and go to the state system. so that _ the independent system and go to the state system. so that is _ the independent system and go to the state system. so that is an _ the independent system and go to the state system. so that is an area - state system. so that is an area that for— state system. so that is an area that for example, _ state system. so that is an area that for example, is _ state system. so that is an area that for example, is not - state system. so that is an area i that for example, is not explained in terms _ that for example, is not explained in terms of— that for example, is not explained in terms of those _ that for example, is not explained in terms of those spending - in terms of those spending commitments. _ in terms of those spending commitments. but - in terms of those spending commitments. but the - in terms of those spending i commitments. but the other in terms of those spending - commitments. but the other thing

which _ commitments. but the other thing which you — commitments. but the other thing which you did _ commitments. but the other thing which you did push _ commitments. but the other thing which you did push on _ commitments. but the other thing which you did push on which - commitments. but the other thing which you did push on which is - commitments. but the other thing. which you did push on which is right is the _ which you did push on which is right is the workers' _ which you did push on which is right is the workers' rights, _ which you did push on which is right is the workers' rights, she - which you did push on which is right is the workers' rights, she didn't. is the workers' rights, she didn't talk about— is the workers' rights, she didn't talk about the _ is the workers' rights, she didn't talk about the fair— is the workers' rights, she didn't talk about the fair pay— is the workers' rights, she didn't. talk about the fair pay agreements, their proposal — talk about the fair pay agreements, their proposal for— talk about the fair pay agreements, their proposal for sectoral- talk about the fair pay agreements, their proposal for sectoral pay- their proposal for sectoral pay agreements. _ their proposal for sectoral pay agreements, which _ their proposal for sectoral pay agreements, which i - their proposal for sectoral pay agreements, which i think- their proposal for sectoral pay. agreements, which i think would their proposal for sectoral pay- agreements, which i think would be a great _ agreements, which i think would be a great concern — agreements, which i think would be a great concern to _ agreements, which i think would be a great concern to business. _ agreements, which i think would be a great concern to business. she - great concern to business. she cannot— great concern to business. she cannot grow— great concern to business. she cannot grow the _ great concern to business. she cannot grow the economy- great concern to business. she cannot grow the economy and i great concern to business. she - cannot grow the economy and have more _ cannot grow the economy and have more productivity— cannot grow the economy and have more productivity without - cannot grow the economy and have more productivity without business| more productivity without business being _ more productivity without business being at _ more productivity without business being at the — more productivity without business being at the heart _ more productivity without business being at the heart of— more productivity without business being at the heart of it. _ more productivity without business being at the heart of it.— being at the heart of it. we're almost out — being at the heart of it. we're almost out of _ being at the heart of it. we're almost out of time, _ being at the heart of it. we're almost out of time, let's - being at the heart of it. we're almost out of time, let's askl being at the heart of it. we're i almost out of time, let's ask big business, those plans for additional rights for workers, they good thing or bad thing? i rights for workers, they good thing or bad thing?— or bad thing? i know lots of businesses _ or bad thing? i know lots of businesses are _ or bad thing? i know lots of businesses are very - or bad thing? i know lots of businesses are very worried or bad thing? i know lots of - businesses are very worried about this. _ businesses are very worried about this. i_ businesses are very worried about this. i am — businesses are very worried about this, lam probably businesses are very worried about this, i am probably much more pragmatic _ this, i am probably much more pragmatic. as the economy and the country— pragmatic. as the economy and the country recovers from the last few years. _ country recovers from the last few years, there has got to be a fair share _ years, there has got to be a fair share between workers, business, the public— share between workers, business, the public at _ share between workers, business, the public at large. done in a careful and consultative way with business, i am much — and consultative way with business, i am much more open. i�*m and consultative way with business, i am much more open.— and consultative way with business, i am much more open. i'm almost out of time. alan. — i am much more open. i'm almost out of time- alan. you _ i am much more open. i'm almost out of time. alan, you have _ i am much more open. i'm almost out of time. alan, you have passionate . of time. alan, you have passionate views about what happened to your party whenjeremy views about what happened to your party when jeremy corbyn was views about what happened to your party whenjeremy corbyn was in charge, what do you think of him standing as an independent innocent in north? i standing as an independent innocent in north? .. standing as an independent innocent in north? ~ ., , standing as an independent innocent in north? ~ , ., in north? i think he has been an independent _ in north? i think he has been an independent and _ in north? i think he has been an independent and our _ in north? i think he has been an independent and our benches . in north? i think he has been an| independent and our benches for in north? i think he has been an - independent and our benches for the last 40 years, i don't think there

will be much change there! thank you for beina will be much change there! thank you for being with — will be much change there! thank you for being with us, _ will be much change there! thank you for being with us, you _ will be much change there! thank you for being with us, you have _ will be much change there! thank you for being with us, you have been - will be much change there! thank you for being with us, you have been a . for being with us, you have been a great trio getting us kicked off at the beginning of this campaign. you have been busy getting in touch. on national service, richard warner says... "i've got a better idea. all mps and the house of lords should do national service including the prime minister." but angie davey says... "i would encourage 18—year—olds to view this as the country investing in them. contributing to society is very rewarding." on labour, kevinjones says... "i want to vote labour. but not for a labour party cutting public expenditure. labour won't tell me what they're going to do." lots of lively debate already and there will be so much more in the weeks to come. thank you very much to all of my guess for being here and most of all to you for watching at home. as we start the countdown to the moment when you'll decide who will run the country. the two big tribes have had very different starts, but what all of the parties are all too aware of — campaigns can feel very

long, and you voters can be a volatile bunch. join me and paddy o'connell later on bbc sounds for weekend newscast. everything's on iplayer too, of course. and i'll look forward to seeing you next sunday, same time, same place.

live from london, this is bbc news. the conservatives say they will bring back mandatory national service for 18—year—olds if they win the general election. russia bombs a crowded diy store in ukraine's second city of kharkiv killing at least12 people. six newborn babies have died after a blaze at a children's hospital in delhi. the rapper nicki minaj cancels a gig in manchester after being arrested at amsterdam airport on suspicion of drug offences, leaving fans upset. hello. i'm lucy grey. we begin in the uk because the general election campaign is well and truly under way.

the conservatives have promised to bring back a form