12 hours later the labour leadership have lifted her suspension. but is she banned from standing as a labour candidate in this election? plus the conservatives say if they win the election they will now protect pensioners from their own future tax rises. are they neglecting young voters?

welcome to election newsnight. we are live each weekday night at half past ten on bbc 2 and bbc news with interviews and insight. with me throughout the programme tonight — labour mp dawn butler and former conservative chancellor kwasi kwarteng who, like around 76 of his tory colleagues, is standing down. first, let's bring you up to date with today's election stories starting with our exclusive that we broke this morning that the labour investigation into diane abbott over her comments on racism was finished five months ago. and tonight, the labour leadership have lifted thier suspension of ms abbott and restored the whip. nick's here. bring us up to date? as you said

earlier this evening sir allan campbell who is the opposition chief whip wrote to diane abbott saying the labour whip had been restored to her and that means that this allows britain's first black woman mp to end this parliament as a labour mp. almost a0 years after her election for labour and the big question as you said now is will diane abbott contest this general election? goad contest this general election? good auestion contest this general election? good question and _ contest this general election? good question and you — contest this general election? good question and you are _ contest this general election? good question and you are referring to is there is an e—mailfrom sir allan campbell to diane abbott which i have seen a screenshot of an he suggests to her that she has indicated an intention to retire. at this election. as i understand it diane abbott has never made that commitment to the party. in a sense that takes us — commitment to the party. in a sense that takes us to _ commitment to the party. in a sense that takes us to the _ commitment to the party. in a sense that takes us to the heart _ commitment to the party. in a sense that takes us to the heart of - commitment to the party. in a sense that takes us to the heart of where l that takes us to the heart of where we are now so there is a belief amongst some of the supporters in the campaign group of diane abbott, the campaign group of diane abbott,

the formerjeremy corbyn group, still very much alive. and the view among some in that group is diane abbott will not be standing in this general election. diane abbott has not told them that, that is just what they believe the direction we're heading in. but there is an even stronger view among supporters of keir starmer that diane abbott must not stand in this election. so what the keir starmer group are saying is that they want dignity for diane abbott, one of his allies described her to me as an icon of the labour movement. but they equally say diane abbott cannot stay because she is in their view a reminder of thejeremy corbyn era which they say was an era of failure and one ally told me that on the doorstep that incident were dan abbott as shadow home secretary in the general election campaign and struggling to explain the numbers behind a policy, that comes up on

the doorstep and is damaging. and there could be enough in that panel report that you reported on that would stop diane abbott from standing. so that panel issued a formal as you say warning after saying diane abbott had and this is the wording, had engaged in conduct that was in the opinion of the nec prejudicial and grossly detrimental to the labour party. under the door a political party is allowed to say we believe this person would not be in our political interest to have them as a candidate, that is how they blocked jeremy corbyn. so look, that was your story that you reported on early this morning and then things moved really quickly this evening. find then things moved really quickly this evening-— this evening. and i think the significant — this evening. and i think the significant thing _ this evening. and i think the significant thing from - this evening. and i think the significant thing from this i this evening. and i think the - significant thing from this morning was the labour national executive committee, we were able to reveal it completed its investigation into diane abbott last december. she had written a letter to the observer

newspaper in april 2023 suggesting thatjewish, irish and traveller people did experience prejudice but did not, were not subject to racism all their lives. so the nec investigated and issued a formal warning requiring her to complete an online module which i'm told was an online module which i'm told was an online anti—semitism awareness course and diane abbott did that in february and since then this matter has been in the hands of the labour chief whip sir allan campbell. that is riuht. it chief whip sir allan campbell. that is right- it is _ chief whip sir allan campbell. “inst is right. it is interesting because as you reported this morning we had the panel reaching its conclusion in december and then in february diane abbott completes the online course and as you are saying at that point it passes to the chief whip sir allan campbell. but what is the primaryjob of the chief whip? no great secret in westminster, i think our colleagues can confirm, the role of the chief whip is to enforce the

will and the authority of the leader of their party. and yet as recently as friday keir starmer told bbc that diane abbott is as he said, is through and being part of and getting to the end of a disciplinary process because of something she said. part of a disciplinary process? when it was with the panel, it was arm's—length, since february it was arm's—length, since february it has been with a member of his shadow cabinet and that was seized on by the tory party so tonight the chairman of the conservative party said sir keir starmer has lied to the british people and has serious questions to answer. and i do have to say that allies of diane abbott are furious. 0ne told me the labour leadership has behaved in a shameful manner towards her and they are talking about a lack of respect to a very significant figure. but interestingly members of the campaign group are nervous about speaking out, worried that if they do they will find that they are not labour candidates at the general

election. well kwasi kwarteng is with us and dawn butler. i well kwasi kwarteng is with us and dawn i“tier-— dawn butler. i think there's a lot to unack dawn butler. i think there's a lot to unpack and — dawn butler. i think there's a lot to unpack and that, _ dawn butler. i think there's a lot i to unpack and that, fundamentally diane _ to unpack and that, fundamentally diane abbott was the first elected black female mp in our country and that is— black female mp in our country and that is something to be proud of. when _ that is something to be proud of. when i _ that is something to be proud of. when i entered parliament in 2005 there _ when i entered parliament in 2005 there were just two of us, me and diane _ there were just two of us, me and diane and — there were just two of us, me and diane and they could not tell us apart, _ diane and they could not tell us apart, which is another matter. i think— apart, which is another matter. i think it _ apart, which is another matter. i think it is — apart, which is another matter. i think it is important that the whip was returned to diane, she went through— was returned to diane, she went through the process and it was important that the clippers returned to hen _ important that the clippers returned to hen and — important that the clippers returned to her. and keir starmer said in his last speech — to her. and keir starmer said in his last speech to the parliamentary labour— last speech to the parliamentary labour party that we are a team and ithink— labour party that we are a team and i think the _ labour party that we are a team and i think the labour party has to act like a _ i think the labour party has to act like a team — i think the labour party has to act like a team and i do feel some people — like a team and i do feel some people around keir starmer, that may be people around keir starmer, that may he have _ people around keir starmer, that may be have watched a bit too much

scandal— be have watched a bit too much scandal or — be have watched a bit too much scandal or west wing and think that is how— scandal or west wing and think that is how politics is done but it is not _ is how politics is done but it is not it— is how politics is done but it is not it is— is how politics is done but it is not. it is important that someone like diane — not. it is important that someone like diane gets her due respect. do like diane gets her due respect. dir: you like diane gets her due respect. you think like diane gets her due respect. dr? you think she has been given due respect? you think she has been given due resect? ~ ., , , ., respect? well obviously it was great ou broke respect? well obviously it was great you broke the _ respect? well obviously it was great you broke the story _ respect? well obviously it was great you broke the story today _ respect? well obviously it was great you broke the story today and - respect? well obviously it was great you broke the story today and can i you broke the story today and can unpick— you broke the story today and can unpick what was happening. i think it's important that we end the day the right— it's important that we end the day the right way and diane had the whip restored _ the right way and diane had the whip restored. and the other thing is is it is up— restored. and the other thing is is it is up to — restored. and the other thing is is it is up to diane to decide what she wants— it is up to diane to decide what she wants to _ it is up to diane to decide what she wants to do — it is up to diane to decide what she wants to do next. find it is up to diane to decide what she wants to do next.— wants to do next. and i'm sure that she will. wants to do next. and i'm sure that she with that _ wants to do next. and i'm sure that she will. that is _ wants to do next. and i'm sure that she will. that is the _ wants to do next. and i'm sure that she will. that is the interesting - she will. that is the interesting bit because all very well to give the whip back to her, but the question remains will she be a candidate or not and only time will tell. �* , , ., , tell. but it is whether it should be hither, it tell. but it is whether it should be higher, it should _ tell. but it is whether it should be higher, it should be _ tell. but it is whether it should be higher, it should be her— tell. but it is whether it should be higher, it should be her decision i tell. but it is whether it should be l higher, it should be her decision or that of the leadership. but higher, it should be her decision or that of the leadership.— that of the leadership. but there are wa s that of the leadership. but there are ways that — that of the leadership. but there are ways that the _ that of the leadership. but there are ways that the leadership - that of the leadership. but there are ways that the leadership can | are ways that the leadership can lean on people. and we do not know if there are deals that have been done, we do not know the full story. and actually looking back to last

week two conservative mps, one of them that hancock and i think the other one rory stewart, who were given the whip back and it was made clear that they were not standing again so can a formal recognition of the fact that they would leave parliament as conservative mps but we still do not know whether diane will be a candidate or not.- will be a candidate or not. there is a delicate dance _ will be a candidate or not. there is a delicate dance going _ will be a candidate or not. there is a delicate dance going on, - will be a candidate or not. there is a delicate dance going on, the - will be a candidate or not. there is| a delicate dance going on, the quip has been _ a delicate dance going on, the quip has been restored _ a delicate dance going on, the quip has been restored to _ a delicate dance going on, the quip has been restored to diane - a delicate dance going on, the quip has been restored to diane abbottl has been restored to diane abbott and i_ has been restored to diane abbott and i think— has been restored to diane abbott and i thinkthe— has been restored to diane abbott and i think the hope _ has been restored to diane abbott and i think the hope in— has been restored to diane abbott and i think the hope in the - and i think the hope in the leadership— and i think the hope in the leadership is— and i think the hope in the leadership is that - and i think the hope in the leadership is that that - and i think the hope in the leadership is that that will| and i think the hope in the - leadership is that that will allow diane _ leadership is that that will allow diane abbott _ leadership is that that will allow diane abbott after— leadership is that that will allow diane abbott after almost - leadership is that that will allow diane abbott after almost 40 i leadership is that that will allow. diane abbott after almost 40 years to leave _ diane abbott after almost 40 years to leave parliament _ diane abbott after almost 40 years to leave parliament with _ diane abbott after almost 40 years to leave parliament with dignity. i to leave parliament with dignity. but i _ to leave parliament with dignity. but i think— to leave parliament with dignity. but i think diane _ to leave parliament with dignity. but i think diane abbott- to leave parliament with dignity. but i think diane abbott very i to leave parliament with dignity. i but i think diane abbott very much wants— but i think diane abbott very much wants to _ but i think diane abbott very much wants to have _ but i think diane abbott very much wants to have it _ but i think diane abbott very much wants to have it dignity _ but i think diane abbott very much wants to have it dignity and - but i think diane abbott very much wants to have it dignity and i- but i think diane abbott very much wants to have it dignity and i think| wants to have it dignity and i think the vlew— wants to have it dignity and i think the view amongst _ wants to have it dignity and i think the view amongst many _ wants to have it dignity and i think the view amongst many of - wants to have it dignity and i think the view amongst many of her i wants to have it dignity and i think. the view amongst many of her allies is that— the view amongst many of her allies is that it _ the view amongst many of her allies is that it is _ the view amongst many of her allies is that it is a — the view amongst many of her allies is that it is a bit _ the view amongst many of her allies is that it is a bit late _ the view amongst many of her allies is that it is a bit late in— the view amongst many of her allies is that it is a bit late in the - the view amongst many of her allies is that it is a bit late in the date i is that it is a bit late in the date for the — is that it is a bit late in the date for the labour— is that it is a bit late in the date for the labour party— is that it is a bit late in the date for the labour party and - is that it is a bit late in the date for the labour party and so- is that it is a bit late in the date for the labour party and so she | is that it is a bit late in the date i for the labour party and so she does not want _ for the labour party and so she does not want to— for the labour party and so she does not want to be — for the labour party and so she does not want to be seen _ for the labour party and so she does not want to be seen to _ for the labour party and so she does not want to be seen to be _ for the labour party and so she does not want to be seen to be forced. i not want to be seen to be forced. and reports— not want to be seen to be forced. and reports this _ not want to be seen to be forced. and reports this evening - not want to be seen to be forced. and reports this evening of- not want to be seen to be forced. and reports this evening of her. and reports this evening of her being _ and reports this evening of her being blocked. _ and reports this evening of her being blocked. do _ and reports this evening of her being blocked.— and reports this evening of her being blocked. and reports this evening of her bein: blocked. ~ , being blocked. do you think she will stand again? _ being blocked. do you think she will stand again? it _ being blocked. do you think she will stand again? it would _ being blocked. do you think she will stand again? it would be _ being blocked. do you think she will stand again? it would be wrong i being blocked. do you think she will stand again? it would be wrong of l being blocked. do you think she will. stand again? it would be wrong of me to retend stand again? it would be wrong of me to pretend l — stand again? it would be wrong of me to pretend i know _ stand again? it would be wrong of me to pretend i know exactly _ stand again? it would be wrong of me to pretend i know exactly what - stand again? it would be wrong of me to pretend i know exactly what is i to pretend i know exactly what is going _ to pretend i know exactly what is going to — to pretend i know exactly what is going to happen _ to pretend i know exactly what is going to happen. but _ to pretend i know exactly what is going to happen. but my- to pretend i know exactly what is

going to happen. but my instinctj to pretend i know exactly what is. going to happen. but my instinct is from _ going to happen. but my instinct is from talking — going to happen. but my instinct is from talking to _ going to happen. but my instinct is from talking to allies _ going to happen. but my instinct is from talking to allies of— going to happen. but my instinct is from talking to allies of diane i from talking to allies of diane abbott — from talking to allies of diane abbott is _ from talking to allies of diane abbott is that _ from talking to allies of diane abbott is that she _ from talking to allies of diane abbott is that she will - from talking to allies of diane abbott is that she will not i from talking to allies of diane i abbott is that she will not stand again— abbott is that she will not stand again but— abbott is that she will not stand again but she _ abbott is that she will not stand again but she does _ abbott is that she will not stand again but she does not - abbott is that she will not stand again but she does not want i abbott is that she will not stand again but she does not want toi abbott is that she will not stand i again but she does not want to look like her_ again but she does not want to look like her hand— again but she does not want to look like her hand has— again but she does not want to look like her hand has been— again but she does not want to look like her hand has been forced. it i again but she does not want to look like her hand has been forced. it is| like her hand has been forced. it is all about— like her hand has been forced. it is all about dignity. _ like her hand has been forced. it is all about dignity. i'ate _ like her hand has been forced. it is all about dignity.— all about dignity. i've seen a screenshot _ all about dignity. i've seen a screenshot of _ all about dignity. i've seen a screenshot of an _ all about dignity. i've seen a screenshot of an e-mail- all about dignity. i've seen a| screenshot of an e-mail that all about dignity. i've seen a i screenshot of an e-mail that was screenshot of an e—mail that was sent from the labour chief whip to diane abbott in which he suggests that she has indicated that she is going to retire. my understanding is she has never indicated that to the labour leadership. and kwasi kwarteng, we mentioned diane abbott being the first black woman elected to westminster, and you remember that? i to westminster, and you remember that? , ' ' f~ to westminster, and you remember that? , ' ' j~ . ., that? i remember the 1987 election, did not really — that? i remember the 1987 election, did not really understand _ that? i remember the 1987 election, did not really understand that i that? i remember the 1987 election, did not really understand that much| did not really understand that much about politics then. and i remember vividly seeing four mps who were ethnic minority mps and it was the first time certainly in the 20th century that had happened. there were ethnic mps in earlier decades but it was the first time certainly since the war that we saw ethnic

minority mps being returned to westminster. it's you were what age? 12 and now i'm a9. was it a big deal? i rememberwatching it 12 and now i'm a9. was it a big deal? i remember watching it and thinking that is a step forward, thatis thinking that is a step forward, that is something that is new and good. and i rememberi that is something that is new and good. and i remember i think keith vaz, diane abbott and benny gantz who sadly has passed away being introduced effectively into westminster. they had won their elections and won the hustings and they were being returned. and that definitely was a moment in post—war history. definitely was a moment in post-war histo . a, ., i. definitely was a moment in post-war histo . a, ., , ., ., definitely was a moment in post-war histo . ., ., ., history. more from you in a moment, thank you- — and for all the election content, bbc iplayer has launched a live stream with the latest from vote 202a. you can also watch the best newsnight interviews on our youtube channel. let's talk now to labour's shadow financial secretary to the treasury, james murray. thank you for being with us. now the tories tonight are calling keir

starmer a liar. 0ver tories tonight are calling keir starmer a liar. over this diane abbott latest news. i5 starmer a liar. over this diane abbott latest news.— starmer a liar. over this diane abbott latest news. is he? no, i thinkthere's _ abbott latest news. is he? no, i think there's been _ abbott latest news. is he? no, i think there's been a _ abbott latest news. is he? no, i think there's been a process i abbott latest news. is he? no, i l think there's been a process which has been gone through here regarding diane and what she wrote in that letter last year. and i think what she wrote in the letter was wrong and they was right to be an investigation into it. i think i'm glad that the process has now come to a conclusion and she has got the whip back because no one wants to be in the situation. keir whip back because no one wants to be in the situation.— in the situation. keir starmer told the bbc on _ in the situation. keir starmer told the bbc on friday _ in the situation. keir starmer told the bbc on friday diane _ in the situation. keir starmer told the bbc on friday diane abbott i in the situation. keir starmer told the bbc on friday diane abbott is| the bbc on friday diane abbott is going through and being part of and getting to the end of a disciplinary process. that process has been in the hands of the chief whip since february or march. who does the chief whip report to? the february or march. who does the chief whip report to?— february or march. who does the chief whip report to? the chief whip obviously works _ chief whip report to? the chief whip obviously works for _ chief whip report to? the chief whip obviously works for the _ chief whip report to? the chief whip obviously works for the leader i chief whip report to? the chief whip obviously works for the leader of i obviously works for the leader of the labour party but it is not a process that i have any insight into. �* , ., process that i have any insight into. , ., into. but you must have asked the auestion into. but you must have asked the question before _ into. but you must have asked the question before he _ into. but you must have asked the question before he came - into. but you must have asked the question before he came on i into. but you must have asked the i question before he came on tonight? i do not have any insight into that

process. did i do not have any insight into that rocess. , , ., ., i do not have any insight into that rocess. , ., ., i do not have any insight into that rocess. ., ., , i do not have any insight into that rocess. , ., ., process. did you not say what is our line tonight? _ process. did you not say what is our line tonight? obviously _ process. did you not say what is our line tonight? obviously i _ process. did you not say what is our line tonight? obviously i spoke i process. did you not say what is our line tonight? obviously i spoke to i line tonight? obviously i spoke to the ress line tonight? obviously i spoke to the press office _ line tonight? obviously i spoke to the press office before _ line tonight? obviously i spoke to the press office before coming i line tonight? obviously i spoke to the press office before coming on j the press office before coming on and they told me what we know has happened which is the whip has been restored but this process is not one thatis restored but this process is not one that is discussed within the labour party because it is at arms length and mps like myself have no involvement.— and mps like myself have no involvement. but it has been february since _ involvement. but it has been february since she _ involvement. but it has been | february since she completed involvement. but it has been i february since she completed the anti—semitism course, it is in the hands of chief whip and keir starmer has authority over the chief wit. if diane abbott wants to stand as a selection will she be able to? it is a decision for— selection will she be able to? it 3 a decision for diane whether she wants to stand. is it her decision? all of us as mp5, the process of deciding whether you end up as a candidate you personally have to decide you want to stand and then there's the party process whether you get the nomination and that i guess is what will happen in the

next week or so.— guess is what will happen in the next week or so. because candidates in hackney north _ next week or so. because candidates in hackney north st _ next week or so. because candidates in hackney north & stoke _ next week or so. because candidates in hackney north & stoke newingtonj in hackney north & stoke newington will have adopted her? i in hackney north & stoke newington will have adopted her?— will have adopted her? i say there is a process _ will have adopted her? i say there is a process and _ will have adopted her? i say there is a process and that _ will have adopted her? i say there is a process and that works i is a process and that works differently because now and election has been called and candidates must be in place really quickly. things normally speed up in a way that an election has been called. but now there is a process that the whip has been restored to diane and i'm glad that that has come to a conclusion. now it is a process of working out who the candidate is in that constituency and if she is standing. do you think that she should be able to stand if she wants to? that is a process. to stand if she wants to? that is a rocess. �* ., , ., to stand if she wants to? that is a rocess. �* ., y ., , process. but what you think? it is not riaht process. but what you think? it is not right for _ process. but what you think? it is not right for me _ process. but what you think? it is not right for me to _ process. but what you think? it is not right for me to involve - process. but what you think? it is | not right for me to involve myself. i'm just asking you as a member of the shadow front bench squad, what your opinion is? do you think that diane abbott now whip has been restored should be able to make a decision about whether she stands or not? ,, ., ~' decision about whether she stands or not? ,, ., ,, ., . , ., decision about whether she stands or not? ,, .,~ ., . , ., ., not? she will make a decision and then the party _ not? she will make a decision and then the party will— not? she will make a decision and then the party will make -

not? she will make a decision and then the party will make a - not? she will make a decision and| then the party will make a decision about whether she gets the party endorsement. so not really her decision? it is two parts because if i want to stand for election i have to decide if i want to be a candidate and then get adopted for the party and that is the same for all candidates.— all candidates. what is the difference _ all candidates. what is the difference between - all candidates. what is the difference between dianel all candidates. what is the i difference between diane abbott all candidates. what is the _ difference between diane abbott and steve riku apologised unreservedly after calling a jewish conservative donor puppet master. he was not suspended or investigating and a spokesman for keir starmer said at the time steve deleted the tweet and did not mean to cause any offence. it is absolutely not for me as an mp to start passing judgment about different mps and what they've said. is there anything you can answer tonight? in is there anything you can answer toniaht? , ., is there anything you can answer toniaht? ,., ,. , ._ tonight? in terms of disciplinary rocess, tonight? in terms of disciplinary process. no- — tonight? in terms of disciplinary process, no. there _ tonight? in terms of disciplinary process, no. there was - tonight? in terms of disciplinary process, no. there was no i process, no. there was no disciplinary _ process, no. there was no disciplinary process i process, no. there was no disciplinary process for i process, no. there was no i disciplinary process for him, that is why i am asking you. it would seem because he deleted the tweet

and according to a spokesman he did not mean to cause offence. whereas diane abbott apologised on the same day her letter was published and withdrew her remarks immediately and she was investigated for eight months. , ., ., ., ,, , months. the point i am making is we have disciplinary _ months. the point i am making is we have disciplinary processes _ months. the point i am making is we have disciplinary processes which i have disciplinary processes which involves the decision of whether to investigate and how it is investigated and that is not something that mps like myself have any involvement with a connection with. that is right. it is right that i am not involved in that, that is the process of separation between people like myself and those conducting the investigation. i5 people like myself and those conducting the investigation. is it because she _ conducting the investigation. is it because she was —— steve reed was a political soulmate of sir keir starmer and i have it was not. it is im ortant starmer and i have it was not. it is important the _ starmer and i have it was not. it 3 important the investigation looks at all mps and makes sure that if anyone has done anything that merits investigation that they are fully investigated.—

investigation that they are fully investiuated. . ~' , ., ., , investigated. thank you for being with us tonight. _ we'll be talking to transport secretary mark harper in a moment. but first let's chat again to our panel — kwasi kwarteng and dawn butler. let me ask you, kwasi kwarteng, about the two big announcements we have had from the tories in this election campaign. compulsory national service for 18—year—olds and the triple lock plus as the conservatives are calling it, protecting pensions from future tory tax rises. what do you think? tibet;r tax rises. what do you think? they are targeted _ tax rises. what do you think? they are targeted policies. _ tax rises. what do you think? tue: are targeted policies. clearly a policy about the triple lock plus for pensioners is targeted at pensioners and saying we need to look after you as pensioners. that is a targeted policy. i think it will go down well. national service is genuinely quite popular. mat will go down well. national service is genuinely quite popular. not with 18-year-olds- _ is genuinely quite popular. not with 18-year-olds. not _ is genuinely quite popular. not with 18-year-olds. not with _ is genuinely quite popular. not with i 18-year-olds. not with 18-year-olds, but across the — 18-year-olds. not with 18-year-olds, but across the country _ 18-year-olds. not with 18-year-olds, but across the country people - but across the country people understand there is an argument to

be had about, discussion to be had about trying to foster this in society. we are divided as a society with different strands and in order to pull this together many people think national service is a good idea. d0 think national service is a good idea. , ., think national service is a good idea. . , ~' think national service is a good idea. . , ~ . , think national service is a good idea. . , ~ . idea. do you really think that is an idea. do you really think that is an idea to pull _ idea. do you really think that is an idea to pull people _ idea. do you really think that is an idea to pull people together? - idea. do you really think that is an idea to pull people together? of l idea to pull people together? (it course idea to pull people together? course it is. idea to pull people together? of course it is. there _ idea to pull people together? of course it is. there are _ idea to pull people together? of course it is. there are a - idea to pull people together? of course it is. there are a lot - idea to pull people together? of course it is. there are a lot of. course it is. there are a lot of different _ course it is. there are a lot of different schemes _ course it is. there are a lot of different schemes like - course it is. there are a lot of different schemes like the - course it is. there are a lot of| different schemes like the one in brent_ different schemes like the one in brent launched the other day by the mayor— brent launched the other day by the mayor in_ brent launched the other day by the mayor in london that gets different young _ mayor in london that gets different young people together and they do sport and _ young people together and they do sport and education. that is doable rather_ sport and education. that is doable rather than — sport and education. that is doable rather than this national service scheme, which is going to cost millions— scheme, which is going to cost millions of— scheme, which is going to cost millions of pounds, it has not been tested, _ millions of pounds, it has not been tested, the — millions of pounds, it has not been costed, the army doesn't like it, it is a crazy— costed, the army doesn't like it, it is a crazy scheme. the prime minister— is a crazy scheme. the prime minister did grab the headlines. | minister did grab the headlines. [ don't minister did grab the headlines. i don't think it is crazy, the fact we are discussing it means it has been effective in terms of publicity and engagement. ultimately there is a serious debate about to be had about

military service. it is not an outlandish thing. it happens in sweden and norway and the french have added and they now want to go back to it. it is not something that is... it back to it. it is not something that is... , , , ' is... it is pretty different in sweden- — is. .. it is pretty different in sweden- i— is... it is pretty different in sweden. i want _ is... it is pretty different in sweden. i want to - is... it is pretty different in sweden. i want to talk - is... it is pretty different in sweden. i want to talk to l is... it is pretty different in i sweden. i want to talk to you is... it is pretty different in - sweden. i want to talk to you about the economy. rachel reeves announced today they had over 100 businesses endorsing them and they talked repeatedly about economic stability. rishi sunak and jeremy hunt, your successor, they say they brought economic stability after the turbulence of your and liz truss's mini budget. iwant turbulence of your and liz truss's mini budget. i want to show you this graph, if i can. it is coming any second now. here it is. you can see the exact moment when voters started to trust labour over the tories on the economy. and it is the time of your mini budget.— the economy. and it is the time of your mini budget. yes, we know it was a turbulent _ your mini budget. yes, we know it was a turbulent time. _ your mini budget. yes, we know it was a turbulent time. does - your mini budget. yes, we know it was a turbulent time. does that i your mini budget. yes, we know it i was a turbulent time. does that keep ou awake was a turbulent time. does that keep you awake at — was a turbulent time. does that keep you awake at night? _ was a turbulent time. does that keep you awake at night? no, _ was a turbulent time. does that keep you awake at night? no, it _ was a turbulent time. does that keep you awake at night? no, it doesn't i you awake at night? no, it doesn't kee me you awake at night? no, it doesn't keep me awake — you awake at night? no, it doesn't keep me awake at _ you awake at night? no, it doesn't

keep me awake at night. _ you awake at night? no, it doesn't keep me awake at night. it - you awake at night? no, it doesn't keep me awake at night. it was i you awake at night? no, it doesn't keep me awake at night. it was 20i keep me awake at night. it was 20 months ago and i had thought we would be able to close the gap. i lost myjob, rightly, perhaps, wrongly, i paid the price. lost my job, rightly, perhaps, wrongly, i paid the price. wrongly? do ou wrongly, i paid the price. wrongly? do you think _ wrongly, i paid the price. wrongly? do you think you — wrongly, i paid the price. wrongly? do you think you should _ wrongly, i paid the price. wrongly? do you think you should have i wrongly, i paid the price. wrongly? do you think you should have keptl do you think you should have kept yourjob? the do you think you should have kept our “ob? ., do you think you should have kept our “ob? . , . ~ your “ob? the idea when she sacked me yourjob? the idea when she sacked me was that — yourjob? the idea when she sacked me was that she _ yourjob? the idea when she sacked me was that she was _ yourjob? the idea when she sacked me was that she was going - yourjob? the idea when she sacked me was that she was going to i me was that she was going to preserve her political life. i said exactly what would happen. but that is water under the bridge. but exactly what would happen. but that is water under the bridge.— is water under the bridge. but the tories have _ is water under the bridge. but the tories have not _ is water under the bridge. but the tories have not regained - is water under the bridge. but the tories have not regained their i is water under the bridge. but the l tories have not regained their trust from the voters.— tories have not regained their trust from the voters. what i am saying is we have had — from the voters. what i am saying is we have had 20 _ from the voters. what i am saying is we have had 20 months _ from the voters. what i am saying is we have had 20 months where i from the voters. what i am saying is we have had 20 months where we i from the voters. what i am saying is i we have had 20 months where we could have rebuilt that and for whatever reason that has not happened. you can't come in and say we are going to rebuild that trust and where there is a deficit go back 20 months and i am not saying the leaders are saying that, but we have had an opportunity and a lot of that will close during the course of the campaign. it close during the course of the campaign-— close during the course of the cam-rain. ., ., campaign. it has not so far, even with a 496 —

campaign. it has not so far, even with a 496 out _ campaign. it has not so far, even with a 4% cut in _ campaign. it has not so far, even with a 4% cut in national- campaign. it has not so far, even i with a 496 cut in national insurance. with a 4% cut in national insurance. it has taken a while, but people will focus on the labour offered during the campaign. that will focus on the labour offered during the campaign.— will focus on the labour offered during the campaign. at the end of the day people _ during the campaign. at the end of the day people want _ during the campaign. at the end of the day people want change. i during the campaign. at the end of the day people want change. they| the day people want change. they have had — the day people want change. they have had enough of all of the scales and they— have had enough of all of the scales and they are like, you know what, we want change — and they are like, you know what, we want change-— want change. dawn, can i ask you, if ima , want change. dawn, can i ask you, if i may. labour— want change. dawn, can i ask you, if i may, labour support _ want change. dawn, can i ask you, if i may, labour support the _ i may, labour support the conservative triple lock, they have made that clear on pensions, but not what they call the triple lock plus. i have not delved into the detail of the triple — i have not delved into the detail of the triple lock plus. what i do know is we _ the triple lock plus. what i do know is we have — the triple lock plus. what i do know is we have been trying to push the tory party— is we have been trying to push the tory party for a long time to protect— tory party for a long time to protect pensions, to protect the triple _ protect pensions, to protect the triple lock, do not backtrack on the promises — triple lock, do not backtrack on the promises. we have got the torsby women _ promises. we have got the torsby women who have been mistreated by this government and there is so much to do _ this government and there is so much to do it _ this government and there is so much to do it is _ this government and there is so much to do. it is not going to be an easy 'ob to do. it is not going to be an easy job if_ to do. it is not going to be an easy job if labour— to do. it is not going to be an easy job if labour is lucky enough to get into government, but it is a job that— into government, but it is a job that we — into government, but it is a job that we are _ into government, but it is a job that we are ready and prepared to do. that we are ready and prepared to do you _ that we are ready and prepared to do. you know, businesses, people, they like— do. you know, businesses, people, they like rachel reeves, they liked what she _ they like rachel reeves, they liked

what she has to say.— what she has to say. interestingly, the rachel reeves _ what she has to say. interestingly, the rachel reeves team _ what she has to say. interestingly, the rachel reeves team have i what she has to say. interestingly, | the rachel reeves team have been doing the calculations and they have been saying since this campaign has been saying since this campaign has been launched, rishi sunak has spent £5 billion and it has not been costed and interestingly, two days in a row how do they fund the national service? in a row how do they fund the nationalservice? how in a row how do they fund the national service? how do they fund triple lock plus from cracking down on tax evasion and tax avoidance? that is true. let's find out. joining me now is the transport secretary mark harper. he is sitting over by regent street. your pensions announcement today, just to be clear, what you are doing is unfreezing the fees that the prime minister brought in when he was chancellor, correct? what prime minister brought in when he was chancellor, correct?— prime minister brought in when he was chancellor, correct? what we are sa in: is was chancellor, correct? what we are saying is for— was chancellor, correct? what we are saying is for pensioners _ was chancellor, correct? what we are saying is for pensioners we _ was chancellor, correct? what we are saying is for pensioners we will i saying is for pensioners we will operate the personal allowance in line with the triple lock so that under us if you only have the basic state pension you will not pay any tax on it. as you discussed, labour will not match that, so if labour

were to get in there will effectively be a retirement tax on pensioners because someone for the first time ever who only had the basic state pension under labour we pay income tax. but basic state pension under labour we pay income tax— pay income tax. but you are unfreezing _ pay income tax. but you are unfreezing the _ pay income tax. but you are unfreezing the freeze i pay income tax. but you are unfreezing the freeze that i pay income tax. but you are i unfreezing the freeze that rishi sunak brought in and i am just wondering if that is part of the reason why you want another five years, to correct the mistakes you have made in the past but a mark they were not mistakes. why are you reversing it?— reversing it? what people keep foruuettin reversing it? what people keep forgetting when _ reversing it? what people keep forgetting when we _ reversing it? what people keep forgetting when we discuss i reversing it? what people keep forgetting when we discuss this reversing it? what people keep i forgetting when we discuss this is there was a global pandemic which costis there was a global pandemic which cost is 400 billions of pounds to protect millions ofjobs and thousands of businesses and that has to be paid for and we have had to make some very difficult decisions and not cut taxes as fast as we would like to. people realise that. i have businesses in my constituency that say to me today they only have a business because rishi sunak protected it when he was chancellor and they have not forgotten and they will not forget on the 4th ofjuly. let me ask you about how you would

fund this, it is one of the biggest fiscal announcements in the election campaign so far. you have claimed you can find it by clamping down on tax avoidance. how come there is still £2.5 billion of tax being avoided after 14 years of tory government? irate avoided after 14 years of tory government?— avoided after 14 years of tory government? avoided after 14 years of tory covernment? . . .., avoided after 14 years of tory covernment? ~ . ., government? we have said we can do that and we — government? we have said we can do that and we know _ government? we have said we can do that and we know we _ government? we have said we can do that and we know we can _ government? we have said we can do that and we know we can do - government? we have said we can do that and we know we can do that. i government? we have said we can do | that and we know we can do that. how come ou that and we know we can do that. how come you have — that and we know we can do that. how come you have left this uncollected for 14 years?— for 14 years? first we protect the i a . for 14 years? first we protect the aa- what for 14 years? first we protect the gap what you _ for 14 years? first we protect the gap what you could _ for 14 years? first we protect the gap what you could collect i for 14 years? first we protect the gap what you could collect and i for 14 years? first we protect the i gap what you could collect and what you collect and it has been smaller now and it has ever been. consistently we have been getting in that sort of money, £6 billion a year, every year, and we can use that... ., . , , ., that... you have suddenly found 2.5 billion of tax — that... you have suddenly found 2.5 billion of tax avoidance. _ that... you have suddenly found 2.5 billion of tax avoidance. we - that... you have suddenly found 2.5 billion of tax avoidance. we will i billion of tax avoidance. we will car on billion of tax avoidance. we will carry on cracking _ billion of tax avoidance. we will carry on cracking down - billion of tax avoidance. we will carry on cracking down on i billion of tax avoidance. we will i carry on cracking down on avoidance and that will raise £6 billion, 2.4 billion of which we will use to protect pensions. we think that is the right thing to do. we introduced

and have kept the triple lock. triple lock plus mean someone on a basic state pension does not pay tax. ~ , . ., basic state pension does not pay tax. ~ , . . . tax. we understand that. when were ou told tax. we understand that. when were you told about _ tax. we understand that. when were you told about this _ tax. we understand that. when were you told about this pensions - tax. we understand that. when were you told about this pensions triple i you told about this pensions triple lock plus? irate you told about this pensions triple lock lus? ~ , _ lock plus? we were briefed by the head with a _ lock plus? we were briefed by the head with a public _ lock plus? we were briefed by thej head with a public announcement. when was that? we were briefed ahead of the public announcement by the pensions secretary.— of the public announcement by the pensions secretary. when was that? you were told _ pensions secretary. when was that? you were told about _ pensions secretary. when was that? you were told about it _ pensions secretary. when was that? you were told about it before? i pensions secretary. when was that? you were told about it before? yes, | you were told about it before? yes, i was. you were told about it before? yes, i was- when — you were told about it before? yes, i was. when were _ you were told about it before? yes, i was. when were you _ you were told about it before? yes, i was. when were you told - you were told about it before? yes, i was. when were you told about i you were told about it before? yes, | i was. when were you told about the national service? _ i was. when were you told about the national service? i— i was. when were you told about the national service? i was _ i was. when were you told about the national service? i was briefed i national service? i was briefed before. i have _ national service? i was briefed before. i have a _ national service? i was briefed before. i have a clip _ national service? i was briefed before. i have a clip i - national service? i was briefed before. i have a clip i want i national service? i was briefed before. i have a clip i want to i national service? i was briefed i before. i have a clip i want to play ou from before. i have a clip i want to play you from w _ before. i have a clip i want to play you from itv. let's _ before. i have a clip i want to play you from itv. let's have - before. i have a clip i want to play you from itv. let's have a - before. i have a clip i want to play you from itv. let's have a look, i you from itv. let's have a look, this is rishi sunak.— you from itv. let's have a look, this is rishi sunak. your heart is in the right _ this is rishi sunak. your heart is in the right place _ this is rishi sunak. your heart is in the right place but _ this is rishi sunak. your heart is in the right place but why - this is rishi sunak. your heart is in the right place but why do i this is rishi sunak. your heart isj in the right place but why do you hate _ in the right place but why do you hate pensioners? is in the right place but why do you hate pensioners?— in the right place but why do you hate pensioners? is that why he has brou:ht in hate pensioners? is that why he has brought in this _ hate pensioners? is that why he has brought in this triple _ hate pensioners? is that why he has brought in this triple lock _ hate pensioners? is that why he has brought in this triple lock plus i hate pensioners? is that why he has brought in this triple lock plus so . brought in this triple lock plus so that people like janet street porter and others can't say that to him? that is a ridiculous comment for her to say. since we have been in government we have introduced the

triple lock, we have made sure that pensioners in this country have a consistent rise in income and this, i think, goes very nicely with what we have done for people of working age, where we have cut national insurance contributions. someone on an average income has had a £900 tax cut and this make sure we protect pensioners and it is properly costed and funded and it is a very good policy and i think it will be very popular. to policy and i think it will be very --oular. ., policy and i think it will be very “oular. ., ,, popular. to paraphrase janet street porter, i popular. to paraphrase janet street porter. i could _ popular. to paraphrase janet street porter, i could ask _ popular. to paraphrase janet street porter, i could ask you _ popular. to paraphrase janet street porter, i could ask you why - popular. to paraphrase janet street porter, i could ask you why do - popular. to paraphrase janet street porter, i could ask you why do you | porter, i could ask you why do you hate young people? we porter, i could ask you why do you hate young maple?— porter, i could ask you why do you hate young people? we don't, i don't know what you _ hate young people? we don't, i don't know what you say — hate young people? we don't, i don't know what you say that. _ hate young people? we don't, i don't know what you say that. let - hate young people? we don't, i don't know what you say that. let me - hate young people? we don't, i don't know what you say that. let me tell l know what you say that. let me tell ou wh . know what you say that. let me tell you why- and _ know what you say that. let me tell you why. and then _ know what you say that. let me tell you why. and then i _ know what you say that. let me tell you why. and then i will— know what you say that. let me tell you why. and then i will tell - know what you say that. let me tell you why. and then i will tell you - you why. and then i will tell you wh that you why. and then i will tell you why that is _ you why. and then i will tell you why that is not _ you why. and then i will tell you why that is not true. _ you why. and then i will tell you why that is not true. you - you why. and then i will tell you why that is not true. you are - you why. and then i will tell you i why that is not true. you are going to force them _ why that is not true. you are going to force them to _ why that is not true. you are going to force them to do _ why that is not true. you are going to force them to do national- why that is not true. you are going | to force them to do national service and triple their tuition fees. you have frozen the threshold at which they pay back the student loan. you have extended the student loan repayment term for 30 to a0 years and many will be paying off their debt in their 605. you have invested

only a third that was recommended by the catch—up star to help kids catch up the catch—up star to help kids catch up after the pandemic. rents rose nearly 9% in the last year and houses are at their most expensive since 1876. that is why i ask of the tories got a problem with young people? tories got a problem with young eo - le? ., . tories got a problem with young eo . le? ., ., , , tories got a problem with young --eole? ., ., , , . people? no, that is why we cut national insurance _ people? no, that is why we cut national insurance for - people? no, that is why we cut national insurance for working | national insurance for working people and we have introduced and increase the national living wage to a record level to make sure those on the lowest incomes have had significant rises. your point about tuition fees, i strongly believe in tuition fees, i strongly believe in tuition fees, i strongly believe in tuition fees for this reason. if you look at the part of the uk where they don't exist, that means what you do is you limit opportunities by limiting the number of people that can go to university. if you come from a poor background in scotland you are less likely to have the chance of going to university than someone from the same background in england. someone from the same background in encland. ., , england. even though it is free? yes, england. even though it is free? yes. because — england. even though it is free? yes, because what _ england. even though it is free? yes, because what they - england. even though it is free? yes, because what they do - england. even though it is free? yes, because what they do in i yes, because what they do in scotland is the limit the number of people who get those opportunities. if you come from a working—class

background like mine you have less chance of having that opportunity in scotland than you do in england and thatis scotland than you do in england and that is why we believe in opportunities for everyone. thank ou ve opportunities for everyone. thank you very much — opportunities for everyone. thank you very much for _ opportunities for everyone. thank you very much for coming - opportunities for everyone. thank you very much for coming in. - opportunities for everyone. thank | you very much for coming in. mark harper, the transport secretary, as you know. let's have a quick look at some of tomorrow's newspapers. the daily telegraph, i am talking to johnson about the election. maybe i will mention that to kwasi kwarteng. the times, soon it plans university cuts to boost apprentices. the daily mail, tory vow to ban rip of university degrees by changing the law. the financial times, a recovery group to stop nationalising water groups. retirees will save 28p a week on the state pension. the israeli spy chief threatened the icc official over war crimes inquiry. wright, sir ed davey, the leader of the lib dems on a paddle board today

and guess what happened? lam enjoying i am enjoying this, honestly. did it look a little bit stage? i wonder? sir ed davey has been in touch with a message for you. i hear --eole touch with a message for you. i hear people wonder _ touch with a message for you. i hear people wonder whether _ touch with a message for you. i hear people wonder whether i _ touch with a message for you. i hear people wonder whether i fell - touch with a message for you. i hear people wonder whether i fell in - people wonder whether i fell in deliberately. i fell in five times, they were — deliberately. i fell in five times, they were not all intentional, but it was_ they were not all intentional, but it was a _ they were not all intentional, but it was a serious message about the fact that _ it was a serious message about the fact that sewage is a big problem, not fact that sewage is a big problem, nohust— fact that sewage is a big problem, notiust in— fact that sewage is a big problem, notjust in the lake district but in lakes _ notjust in the lake district but in lakes and — notjust in the lake district but in lakes and rivers and beaches across our country — lakes and rivers and beaches across our country. the issue about sewage will he _ our country. the issue about sewage will he on _ our country. the issue about sewage will be on the ballot paper onjuly the 4th — will be on the ballot paper onjuly the 4th i— will be on the ballot paper onjuly the ath. i know you are revamping newsnight — the ath. i know you are revamping newsnight. i hope it goes really well, _ newsnight. i hope it goes really well, the — newsnight. i hope it goes really well, the best of luck, i newsnight. i hope it goes really well, the best of luck, lam newsnight. i hope it goes really well, the best of luck, i am looking forward _ well, the best of luck, i am looking forward to— well, the best of luck, i am looking forward to being on your programme. so is that—

forward to being on your programme. so is that happen? people will follow paddle boards in an