a very warm welcome to talking business weekly with me, aaron heslehurst. let's go and take a look at what's on the show. it is a threat, i would say, in particular to the fast—fashion industry, because we are talking about cheap clothing sold in bulk and we are now seeing an absolute rise, which would have been almost unimaginable even 5—6 years ago. yep — repair, re—wear. it's a new era of shopping for our wardrobe, with the second—hand clothing market taking a chunk of fashion sales. so, is it chic to be sustainable? the market is booming, with pre—owned clothing set to be worth some $350 billion within the next four years. but just what's driving this surge in sales? is it simply watching the pennies in our purse, or is it our concern for climate change and the planet? i'm going to be discussing all of that, firstly, with these two, there

they are — orsola de castro, the co—founder of fashion revolution and the author of the book loved clothes last, and kriti tula, the founder of doodlage, who creates sustainable fashion from waste. also joining us is the founder and the big boss of thredup, one of the world's biggest fashion resale platforms, who tells us second—hand clothing is now transcending generations. wherever you'rejoining me from around the world, once again, a big hello and a warm welcome to the show. you know, the captivating world of fashion — it's all about aspiration. it's an industry that thrives on innovation, constantly reinventing itself with the latest trends. it both shapes and is shaped by the society around us. there is, of course, the high—end couture versus the ready to wear that you can pick up off the rack at your favourite retailer. then there are the business models — fast fashion, based on quantity, and slow

fashion, based on quality. both push the concept of seasonal limited designs to drive sales. but fashion, it has a dark side. environmentalists continue to warn us just how damaging it is to our planet. so, let's just take a look at exactly how big all of this is. the fashion industry is valued at approximately $2.1; trillion and employs over 75 million people worldwide. an estimated 100 billion new garments are produced every single year. meanwhile, the average consumer now purchases 60% more clothing than they did 15 years ago, but wear them for half as long. globally, around 56 million tonnes of clothing are bought each year, and this is expected to rise to 93 million tonnes by 2030. and it's going to go even higher, to 160 million tonnes by 2050.

in the uk alone, more than two tonnes of clothing are purchased — wait for this — every minute. that's the highest rate in europe. 0k, some huge numbers there. but according to greenpeace, the fashion industry, it loses $0.5 trillion every single year because of under—wearing, or not wearing our clothes enough, and a failure to recycle them. and that's what's driving a lot of consumers to buy from the second—hand fashion market — otherwise known as thrifting. here, take a listen. hi, my name is tyler chanel. i grew up thrifting, but thrifting is great because it keeps items out of landfills, you can find really unique pieces that no—one else will have, and it's just a really good way to shop on a budget. my best find ever was on facebook marketplace. ifound my wedding dress for m00, and this usually retails for over $1,200. i'mjo wiltshire, i'm the programme director for the post—grad and undergrad degrees in fashion marketing management at cardiff metropolitan university.

everything i'm wearing is either from charity stores or from vinted. i think thrifting is really important because we need to see systemic change within the fashion industry in order to inform consumer mindset. it's important that we educate our students so that they can spearhead that going forward in order to move away from a damaging, throwaway fashion culture. hi, i'm kat, | buy. and sell on vinted. i recently bought thisj jaeger bag for £3.50, this paul smithjumper- for about a tenner, and these ralph lauren trousers for £7. i love vinted because it - declutters my wardrobe, it's really good for the environment and it saves money because ofl the cost of living crisis. 0k, there you go. so, let's nowjust take a look at how the industry is putting profits before ethics. fashion production is responsible for 8—10% of global emissions. that's more than the aviation and the shipping industries combined. and that is expected to double by 2030.

of all the clothing thrown away across the world, nearly 60% ends up in a landfill. in the us alone, an estimated 11.3 million tonnes of textile waste ends up in landfills every single year. that's just over 2,000 pieces of clothing every second. so, what can be done to stop all of this? could curating a conscious wardrobe be the answer? well, to find out more, i caught up with the queen of fashion upcycling and the co—founder of fashion revolution. 0rsola de castro, a real pleasure having you on the show. and 0rsola, let me start with this. you're a fashion designer and the co—founder of fashion revolution. you've been described, well, certainly as a pioneer when it comes to advocating sustainable fashion. so i've got to ask you, how did you get started? i started with a jumper that had a hole, and i crocheted all around the hole in order to keep the... somehow the defect,

embellish a defect. that turned, believe it or not, into a career as a fashion designer, recuperating both from post—consumer waste, which is everything we leave behind, to pre—consumer waste, which is what the industry leaves behind. after that, i co—founded an area for the british fashion council called estethica to promote the work of other designers such as myself, who really were seeing sustainability and ethics as an opportunity. and then came fashion revolution. so it's, i would say, approximately 20 years in this niche. and, 0rsola, we can't underestimate the waste within the fashion industry, can we, in terms of the energy and the water that's needed to produce all of it in the first place? we are seeing an industry that, effectively, since industrialisation, designed itself to exploit

both people and nature. this is an industry that is ancient, one of the oldest in terms of industrialisation and the industrial revolution, and that it has nothing to do with circularity or innovation. it is incredibly old—fashioned, unbelievably linear, and it is an industry that, despite the fact that it should really be representative of who we are as humanity, considering that clothes are the first thing that we put on and, in many cases, the way that we describe ourselves, it is an industry that is absolutely hellbent on showing the worst of who we are, exploiting the people who make our clothes and the resources all throughout its very convoluted supply chains. you know, also, i have to ask you, you've been

in the industry a long time — why has it struggled to embrace sustainability? the majority of innovation is actually people on stage patting each other on their back and saying, "we will be doing this, we promise that," and nothing has come true. obviously, as all industries, the system that we are running it from is capitalism. this is not conductive to a caring industry, to an industry that genuinely wants to change. so i wouldn't put this just on the doorstep of the fashion industry. i think this is the precarious state that we find ourselves in after hundreds of years of exploitative industry. how much of a threat is the rise of second—hand clothing sales to the fashion industry? it is a threat, i would say, in particular to the

fast—fashion industry, because we are talking about cheap clothing sold in bulk and we are now seeing an absolute rise, which would have been almost unimaginable even 5—6 years ago. we come from decades of not valuing the clothes that we buy. they're cheap, they're abundant, they're everywhere. at the crux of it all, there is a lack of attachment over the clothes that we own, over the things that we have. so the secondary market is, in my opinion, incredibly interesting to witness as a development of decades of unloved and cheap clothing. but it isn't a solution. the real solution would be to keep, to fall in love with your clothes again, to transform them, to mend them and to maintain them. and the culture of

repair isn't there. and 0rsola, let me end on this — as a businesswoman, what sort of innovations are you seeing in the second—hand clothing market, and where do you see that market in, say, five years' time? i have a sneaky feeling that if things continue as they are right now, our priority in five years' time is not going to be buying a ton load of clothes. it's going to be to have the skills to make the ones that we've already got last a long time, looking good. well, on that point, 0rsola de castro, fashion designer and co—founder of fashion revolution, really appreciate your time. thanks forjoining me. thank you very much for listening to me and for inviting me. 0k, did you know that india, bangladesh and china account for 40% of the global garment production? so what sort of innovation is occurring among manufacturers there to reduce our wardrobes' impact on the planet? well, my next guest,

she's tapped into sustainable techniques of utilising recycled and zero waste fabrics. she is the founder and the big boss of doodlage. kriti tula, really great to have you on the show. and kriti, let me start with this. some enormous numbers that are involved. 0ne kilo of cotton production uses 10,000 litres of fresh water. 70 million trees are cut every year for clothes making. fashion uses something like 3112 million barrels of oil every year, and nearly a quarter of all chemicals produced are used for the textile industry. so, kriti, the question is, is that how you came up with your idea? you looked at the industry numbers and you simply thought, there's got to be a better way? while i was working in export houses, i realised that there are factories and buildings full of factory wastages. these are fabrics that are wasted and discarded based on a number of defects that happen in various manual processes the fashion industry goes through.

so ijust wanted to be able to put all of this fabric to better use. understanding the material, the fabric, the reason for wastages, the impact of the fashion industry, what goes into making these materials was something that i, you know, got into learning about much later. and all that fabric that is wasted, where do you get yours from? in india, there are about 30,000 medium, large and small scale factories that produce, er, factory wastages. so we're really spoilt for choice here. and so i started working with factories directly. we also worked with traders that allows us to collect factory wastages from factories in and around delhi and convert them into short collections. so this is where we're at when we're working with factory wastages and upcycling that into short limited edition collections.

to find you are often out price by competing manufacturers who are not as ethical as? definitely, when you're working with slow fashion, you are so conscious of the material choices that you make. you are not overproducing, so you're not overproducing, so you're not overproducing, so you're not over consuming resources that are already limited. so your overheads are a lot higher — the overheads are divided with a very low number of production, compared to overproducing products. so our costs are definitely higher. 0ur costs are definitely higher. our products, like shorter tops, are often $20, and most of the pieces come out to be $45— 60. and kriti, let me end on this — looking ahead, do you think it's feasible to imagine

a time in the future where all clothing factories are sustainable and ethical? it's safe to say that there are enough alternatives and technologies that are available to make industry more ethical and sustainable. but i don't feel there are enough efforts that are being made to make that mainstream. and numbers of the fashion industry also support the same. we're still producing about 150 billion garments every year, which is a huge number. and most of them never go back to recycling centres. so, i would definitely love to see more alternatives becoming mainstream. well, on that point, kriti tula, the founder of doodlage, good luck with everything and we'll check in with you soon. thank you, aaron. thank you for hosting this important conversation and taking it global.

ok, so in this week's show, we've been looking at sustainable fashion. you know, the fashion industry is heavily marketed to appeal to our vanity, and it convinces us that we can be a — well, a cut above the rest. and let's be honest, we all love it. but in recent years, the cost of living crisis and environmental concerns have driven an increasing number of people to purchase pre—loved garments. so, who better to talk to than the founder and the big boss of thredup, one of the world's biggest online resale platforms? james reinhart, a real pleasure having you on the show. and, james, let me simply start with this. what is it that you're doing and how did you get started? it's great to be here, thanks for having me. we make it very easy for sellers to get rid of the things that they are no longer wearing, they put stuff in a bag or box, they send it to us, we process it all, we make it available to shop online, just like you were shopping at any one of the e—commerce companies that you shop with. and then buyers buy

that product and we ship it to them. so we really sit at the centre of this market between buyers and sellers. the whole idea came to me, feels like a long time ago when i was a student and i went to sell some of my clothes at a local consignment store, and i brought them in, these were wonderful things, and they said, "we don't take these, we just do luxury." and i remember at the time thinking that this clothing still had a lot of value in it and that there was something broken. and i went home that day and thought, you know, there had to be a better way. and that is how thredup got born. and we've been working at it ever since. and james, there does appear to have been a generational shift from the stigma of wearing hand—me—downs. so i'm kind of wondering, do you attribute the change of such attitudes to, well, not only your success, but of course, to all the other online apps and second—hand clothing sites? i think over the past, you know, ten—plus years, you've really seen resale kind of come into its own, where

people really do love the idea of shopping second—hand. they love the uniqueness of the items that they're going to find. and so, i think a lot of that stigma has now lapsed, and i actually would say it's probably swung the other way, which is something that, you know, i think we feel really proud of. james, let's look at this, because the world's largest retailer, the inditex group, which owns zara and a host of other fast—fashion brands, it reported a near 10.5% rise in sales compared to the year before. h&m, another giant, also reported a stronger than expected first three months' operating profit. so when you look at those numbers, james, it does suggest there's still a huge amount of money being spent on fast fashion. so, what does that tell you? i think it tells me that it's complicated out there. i think as much as people want to make the right decision for the planet, to shop more sustainably, the allure of fast fashion, the allure of fresh new items that they can get, and sort of the retail therapy nature of shopping is a really strong countervailing force

to what people, i think, intrinsically want to do. and fast fashion is a really powerful drug. and i think ourjob is to help people understand that they can have all of those things. they can have freshness, they can have selection, they can be unique, and they can do that in a more sustainable way. but, look, i think it's tough out there and i don't expect the fast—fashion companies to go down without a fight. james, you know, many fashion brands, they're given a hard time for being unethical and notoriously producing an obscene amount of clothes. on top of that, you've got all the environmental concerns about the energy, the amount of water that's needed to produce clothing, but you are profiting from commoditising pre—loved items that would, well, otherwise end up in in a landfill. do you think that's part of what motivates your customers? i think one of the things that second—hand does is provide incredible value to the consumer. but i think a close second

is people want to feel like they're doing something good. and i think shopping second—hand is a way of saying i'm going to reduce the tax that i have on the planet, whether that's water emissions, and so we really do help people make better choices for — we call it better choices for your wallet, better choices for your closet, better choices for the planet. soido so i do think that's a primary motivation. well, james, let me throw this one out to you, because the life cycle of a typical fashion purchase, it ends after a customer takes the item home and wears it, right? but you've disrupted that business model with what's been dubbed recommerce. so i'm kind of wondering, does this revival leave the established international fashion brands, i don't know, infuriated? i think what we have tried to do is say there is a better

for a long time we've had this linear brands make them, consumers buy them, and they end up in a landfill. but it shows brands if they make higher—quality things, there's a better circularity to the things they make. when they're done with things that they are no longer excited about, consumers can send them back to the brand or a third—party player, and they can be recirculated. so and so, what i hope will happen over time is that brands will understand that this is how consumers want to shop. they want to obviously buy new stuff over time,

but they also want to buy, second—hand items, and that brands will start to think about higher—quality production, how can circularity be part of their strategy over time, and i think ultimately, that will make an impact. i've got to ask you, what's the typical profile of your customers? because again, i'm kind of wondering, james, is itjust gen z or cash—strapped single people penny—pinching through the cost of living crisis? i will say that incrementally, younger people are more inclined to shop second—hand, from a unit's perspective. but what you see is, actually, as people get older, they're buying different types of items. and so you see luxury penetration, you see premium brand penetration as customers, you know, get into their 30s, 40s and 50s. it is really something that i think transcends generations. so you may change the mix of stuff you're buying year in and year out. but generally speaking, once people start shopping second—hand, they buy more and more and more second—hand over time. and i think that's a trend that's really, really powerful for our business, and i think really good for the global economy. here's something i'm curious about. what sort of items sell the most? i mean, what sort of trends

are you seeing in that area? by far on thredup, the number one category, i think this holds true for other resale sites, is women's dresses. because dresses, i think, are one of those things that is a staple of a woman's wardrobe, and people don't necessarily want to be wearing the same dress out to parties, out to events, you know, out to be seen time and time and time again. james, is there a difference between men and women? because, look, let me tell you, in my household, i'm always battling with my wife because she says, "oh, you haven't worn that for 18 months, get rid of it," and i'm like, "no, no, no, it could come back in fashion." yes, men and women are different. how much time do we have? no, look, i think in the second—hand economy, many women are very different, because what's interesting about men is that we tend to wear our clothes much longer, right? we have the same things we love. we wear them, you know, day in and day out. the second piece is that, um, we actually wear the same four or five colours.

so i think that's why the men's second—hand market is a real fraction of the women's market. now obviously we would love that to change over time. but, yeah, women are really the lion's share of what's going on in this market. just briefly, james, are you looking at certain innovations as you continue going forward to, well, to sustain your business? i think the most interesting thing for second—hand and the resale economy is what artificial intelligence is going to be able to do for the shopping journey. what ai can do is, there's a real gap between shopping used and shopping new, right? when you shop a used product, you don't necessarily get all the original product details, the photography might not be as good. search — you know, you have these sort of long tail items to try and find. and what ai is able to do, i think, is really improve the experience, to collapse the spread between shopping used and shopping new. so we can use al to provide more merchandising photography, we can use al to provide more

styling advice, we can use ai to power improved, uh, search. we can use ai photo technology to help you find outfits out in the wild that you love, and then find them second—hand. and james, let me end on this. where do you see the second—hand clothing market in, say, five years' time? look, the data is pretty compelling. it's going to continue to grow much, much faster than traditional retail. so i think you're going to see more and more consumers shopping second—hand. and importantly, their share of wallet, i think, is going to increasingly be consumed by second—hand, which i think is a really positive thing. i think more brands get involved in second—hand, and trying to figure out how to participate in this fast—growing, emerging market. i think the last thing is that i think you're going to see government get involved, both — you know, it's happening in the eu, it's happening in the us, trying to figure out how to stimulate a more sustainable fashion world. and so i expect to see some

regulation, some incentives to really drive home circularity, drive home sustainability in the fashion world. and i'm excited to, you know, to be a part of that. and, um, hopefully we'll come back and talk about that in a few years. well, on that point, james reinhart, co—founder and the big boss of thredup, really great to have you on the show, and we really appreciate your time. great, thanks, aaron. well, that's it for this week's show. i hope you enjoyed it. don't forget, you can keep up with the latest on our global economy on the bbc website or the smartphone app. of course, you can also follow me on x — x me, i'll x you back! you can get me @bbcaaron. thanks for watching, i'll see you soon. bye— bye. hello there. it was a pretty decent saturday for much of the north of the uk. we saw highs of 22 celsius, the warmest spots of scotland and northern ireland. but it was cool, cloudy and breezy for eastern england. for sunday, it's a reverse of fortunes. it's the south and east

of the country which will see the best of the warmth and the sunshine. further north and west, it will turn cloudier. that's because around this area of high pressure, we'll see this cloud and a weather front starting to work into the north—west of the uk. so it's a chilly but a bright start for many areas, early cloud clearing away from the south—east. the winds turn lighter here, too. lots of sunshine into the afternoon, a bit hazy in places. but the cloud continues to build across scotland and northern ireland through the day, with even a bit of rain arriving across western scotland as well and the breeze picking up here too. so feeling cooler — 1a celsius for the western isles. a bit warmer for eastern scotland, which holds on to the sunshine for longest, but up to 22—23 celsius across the east and south—east of england. now, as we head through sunday nights, that weather front with the clouds spills its way southward. so it'll turn cloudy for many areas, with some spits and spots of rain, mainly across northern and western hills. because there's more cloud around, more cloud cover means it won't be quite as cool. so i think a milder night to come for most. then into next week, we see some changes.

monday starts off on a fine note with plenty of sunshine, but it will turn cooler from tuesday onwards, with sunshine and showers. most of the showers will be across the north of the uk. so we've got this weather front straddling the country through monday, slowly sinking southwards. it will introduce quite a lot of cloud initially to scotland and then into england and wales. skies will brighten up for northern ireland too. there may be the odd spits and spots of light rain. but it brightens up for scotland. maybe a few showers in the far north later on, where it'll turn breezier. lighter winds further south. so quite a mixed picture, i think. generally, though, given some sunny spells, temperatures will reach highs of 20—21 celsius. still cooler in the north—west of scotland. and that's the sign of things to come. much cooler air spills southwards across the whole country as we move through tuesday and wednesday and we'll see showers being pushed into northern areas. some of these showers may have a wintry element to them over the tops of the scottish mountains. most of the showers across the north of the uk. further south, in that strong earlyjune sunshine, temperatures will rise up

to 20—21 celsius, but nights will be chilly.

live from washington, this is bbc news. millions of voters in south africa turn their back on the ruling anc — it suffers its worst election result in 30 years.

it's the most dramatic political shift in south africa since the end of apartheid, and no one knows what will happen next. the us, egypt and qatar urge israel and hamas to agree to a new peace deal, as international calls grow for an end to the fighting in gaza. and a lawyer for donald trump tells the bbc that nothing will change in the former us president's run for the white house, despite his criminal conviction. hello, i'm carl nasman. south africa's election looks set to bring the biggest political change to the country in decades. with almost all votes counted, the ruling african national congress has lost its outright majority and will now have to find coalition partners for the first time since it won power as apartheid ended in 1994. while the anc is the oldest liberation movement on the african continent, many voters blame the party for high levels of crime

and corruption and a lack of basic necessities, like water and electricity.