so, will keir starmer�*s new promise on migration get labour back on track? rishi sunak has been giving away goodies for the tories' traditional voters. with all the parties�* campaigns now under way, the antics and announcements are coming thick and fast, so there are plenty of questions still to ask. after the home secretary last week, this morning, the woman who wants hisjob is here, yvette cooper. and the woman who wants to keep her role running the health department, victoria atkins, joins us, too. you both still look quite perky? i am raring to go! it is really good to have the election actually up and running so that we can get on with it. ~ ., ~ ., i. running so that we can get on with it. we will talk to you in a few minutes- _ in our first leader interview, we'll speak to adrian ramsay from the greens. and politicians beware — our fact—checker will test all their claims as we go along. john curtice will give his 60 seconds on sunday — all you need to know on the polls.

labour are still 21 points ahead of the conservatives, though the lead does vary between 12 and 27 points. and away from our election, the wild ride of america's presidential race, too — we've been talking to one of donald trump's lawyers who was alongside him in court. donald trump is the victim of political selective prosecution. and for the first time since he lost his battle to stay as conservative mayor of west midlands, andy streetjoin us. shami chakrabarti, labour member of the lords and friend of diane abbott is here. and daisy cooper is our first guest from the lib dems in the campaign — welcome to you all! morning, morning.

let's start with a look at what's making the news this morning. the mail on sunday splashes on calls to cut taxes to save the toriees. the observer claims sunak�*s in trouble over promises to towns. starmer�*s told the sun on sunday — read my lips — i'll cut migration, more later. and stormy daniels, the witness in the donald trump trial, tells the mirror, lock him up. i've talked to one his laywers, more later on. it has been a busy week. i am going to come to you first, shami, or viewers will remember, you are somebody who is close to diane abbott, and she has been at the centre of a storm this week, it is still not 100% sure that she is going to stand as an mp, although labour is assuming that she will now, do you think that she will stand again?! now, do you think that she will stand again?— now, do you think that she will stand again? i hope that she will now, stand again? i hope that she will now. after _ stand again? i hope that she will now, after this _ stand again? i hope that she will now, after this sometimes - stand again? i hope that she will| now, after this sometimes sordid week of unauthorised, anonymous

briefings by overgrown schoolboys in suits with their feet on the table and maybe watching too much west wing but not taking on its more progressive values, i hope... and by the way, i hope they remember it is supposed to be country first, not faction first, i hope she will take some time to consider what she wants to do. and that is literally what i have suggested to her as her friend and i hope that is what she is going to do. it and i hope that is what she is going to do. , ., , and i hope that is what she is going to do. ,., , ~' and i hope that is what she is going to do. ,., , ~ , and i hope that is what she is going todo. , ~ , , to do. it sounds like there is very much still — to do. it sounds like there is very much still an _ to do. it sounds like there is very much still an open _ to do. it sounds like there is very much still an open question - to do. it sounds like there is very much still an open question and l to do. it sounds like there is very i much still an open question and you are hinting that perhaps that maybe she shouldn't? ida. are hinting that perhaps that maybe she shouldn't?— she shouldn't? no, not at all. i 'ust she shouldn't? no, not at all. i just think _ she shouldn't? no, not at all. i just think it _ she shouldn't? no, not at all. i just think it has _ she shouldn't? no, not at all. i just think it has been _ she shouldn't? no, not at all. i just think it has been pretty - just think it has been pretty appalling. you know, trying to bully someone of her stature, notjust in the party, i have been quite moved by some of the comments and the pieces that have been written by conservatives and others, sayeeda warsi wrote a really lovely piece about what someone like diane is the first black woman mp meant to her. i

think it is important now for this not to be decided by fans or detractors of my dear friend, i want her tojust decide what detractors of my dear friend, i want her to just decide what she wants to do, take a few days over that. we will talk about that later in the programme but when you talk about the boys in suits, you're talking about people who work for keir starmer? ., , .. , ., about people who work for keir starmer? ., , , ., , starmer? no, because i have been assured, starmer? no, because i have been assured. i— starmer? no, because i have been assured. i have — starmer? no, because i have been assured, i have been _ starmer? no, because i have been assured, i have been personally i assured, i have been personally assured, i have been personally assured by the leadership of the labour party, the senior most people in the labour party, that these briefings were unauthorised. and of course, they were anonymous. this is part of the westminster bubble game. i don't think people in the country give a monkey's about this nonsense. it's not good for keir starmer�*s leadership, it's not good for the labour party and it hasn't been very nice for diane and for common decency, frankly.— nice for diane and for common decency, frankly. nice for diane and for common decen , frankl . �* , ., ~' decency, frankly. andy, do you think it has changed _ decency, frankly. andy, do you think it has changed the _ decency, frankly. andy, do you think it has changed the dynamic - decency, frankly. andy, do you think it has changed the dynamic of - decency, frankly. andy, do you think it has changed the dynamic of this i it has changed the dynamic of this election? i it has changed the dynamic of this election? ~ ., , _, ., election? i think what is coming out is that this is _ election? i think what is coming out is that this is not _ election? i think what is coming out is that this is not an _ election? i think what is coming out is that this is not an issue _ election? i think what is coming out

is that this is not an issue on - election? i think what is coming out is that this is not an issue on its i is that this is not an issue on its own, _ is that this is not an issue on its own. it — is that this is not an issue on its own. it is — is that this is not an issue on its own, it is actually part of a bigger picture _ own, it is actually part of a bigger picture where keir starmer is trying to ensure _ picture where keir starmer is trying to ensure that he has got an ultra—loyal team around him and i don't _ ultra—loyal team around him and i don't think— ultra—loyal team around him and i don't think that is necessarily a good _ don't think that is necessarily a good thing for any party, any business. _ good thing for any party, any business, any organisation, should have _ business, any organisation, should have a _ business, any organisation, should have a breadth of thinking in its senior— have a breadth of thinking in its senior team and i think that is the question— senior team and i think that is the question that is coming out in the wider— question that is coming out in the wider dynamic of the election, that singular— wider dynamic of the election, that singular mindset, is that positive at all? _ singular mindset, is that positive atall? _ ~ ., singular mindset, is that positive atall? ~ ., ., at all? daisy, party's like to have --eole at all? daisy, party's like to have peeple who _ at all? daisy, party's like to have people who do — at all? daisy, party's like to have people who do what _ at all? daisy, party's like to have people who do what they - at all? daisy, party's like to have people who do what they are i at all? daisy, party's like to have | people who do what they are told, don't they ravage the liberal democrats are a very internally democratic party, we pride ourselves on having votes with our members so we like and we embrace the internal democracy, what i would say on the issue with diane abbott is that i do not share her politics, i thought the article that got her suspended in the first place was pretty appalling, but i think shami is white, there has been a huge amount of respect shown across the political spectrum but frankly right now, people want to hear about things like the nhs and the cost of living. —— shami is right. they also want to hear about things like the

home office and immigration. the second week was not supposed to be like this like labour, its careful plans were knocked off course by the diane abbott saga. they had wanted to talk about antisocial behaviour and green energy, and today, labour wants to move on to migration, with keir starmer making a big promise in the sun on sunday saying, read my lips, i will cut migration. so, yvette cooper, let's start with that big promise, infive yvette cooper, let's start with that big promise, in five weeks, you could, if you win, be behind the desk in the home office in charge of migration. how many more people do you think should be able to come and live in the uk illegally? that is what we mean by net migration. 50. what we mean by net migration. so, net what we mean by net migration. srr, net migration what we mean by net migration. s57, net migration has what we mean by net migration. s513, net migration has trouble since what we mean by net migration. s53, net migration has trouble since the last election. to a record high, really. and that has reflected partially big increases in work migration. the office for national statistics will tell you that there has been a big increase, that is now the biggest factor, work visas have

doubled over a series of years, work migration even in the last 12 months alone has gone up by around 50%. we think that that is a problem, we think that that is a problem, we think that that is a problem, we think that net migration needs to come down, and that means you have to tackle the issues that have been driving that overseas recruitment by employers. so, we support the measures that the government has introduced in recent months, and some further restrictions on visas, but we are also saying, you have got to get to the heart of it, you have got to tackle those skills shortages and we are setting up a new system that would link the immigration system and skills and training plans, workforce plans, in the key sectors that are driving this. and sectors that are driving this. and if ou sectors that are driving this. and if you target. _ sectors that are driving this. and if you target. you _ sectors that are driving this. and if you target, you hope to bring the numbers down, by how much? how many people should be allowed to come here? we people should be allowed to come here? ~ ., ., , ., ., here? we are not setting a target. and the reason _ here? we are not setting a target. and the reason for— here? we are not setting a target. and the reason for that _ here? we are not setting a target. and the reason for that is - here? we are not setting a target. | and the reason for that is because, partly because, to be honest, every time the conservatives have done this, frankly, then they have just

ended up being totally all over the place, ripping it up and discredited the whole system. i am place, ripping it up and discredited the whole system.— place, ripping it up and discredited the whole system. i am asking what ou. .. the whole system. i am asking what ou... i the whole system. i am asking what you... i understand, _ the whole system. i am asking what you... i understand, just _ the whole system. i am asking what you... i understand, just to - the whole system. i am asking what you... i understand, just to finish i you... i understand, 'ust to finish the point. — you... i understand, 'ust to finish the point. uh you... i understand, 'ust to finish the point. but also i you... i understand, just to finish the point. but also because i you... i understand, just to finish the point. but also because from| you... i understand, just to finish i the point. but also because from one year to another, there are variations. so, for example, the pandemic means the net migration figures fell, but the homes for ukraine visa, rightly, meant that the figures increased, because of the figures increased, because of the war in ukraine. but people would like more clarity.— like more clarity. rather than 'ust sa inc, like more clarity. rather than 'ust saying. we — like more clarity. rather than 'ust saying. we uni like more clarity. rather than 'ust saying, we will not i like more clarity. rather than 'ust saying, we will not set i like more clarity. rather than 'ust saying, we will not set a i like more clarity. rather than just saying, we will not set a number. i saying, we will not set a number. maybe you might want to set a goal of a proportion to bring it down. last year the most recent figures said net migration was 685,000 people. so when you say you want to bring it down, what do you mean? do you mean by one, by 1000, bring it down, what do you mean? do you mean by one, by1000, by 100,000, by 200,000? we you mean by one, by 1000, by 100,000, by 200,000? we clearly want to see significant — 100,000, by 200,000? we clearly want to see significant changes _ 100,000, by 200,000? we clearly want to see significant changes in _ 100,000, by 200,000? we clearly want to see significant changes in place. i to see significant changes in place. what does that mean?— to see significant changes in place. what does that mean? because we have seen the numbers _ what does that mean? because we have seen the numbers treble. _ what does that mean? because we have seen the numbers treble. we _ what does that mean? because we have seen the numbers treble. we have i seen the numbers treble. we have supported the changes made by the government, those have yet to play

through, and those will lead to further restrictions on visas. already there have been some false, in fact. butjust already there have been some false, in fact. but just to already there have been some false, in fact. butjust to press you on this point, because a few months ago the shadow chief secretary, darren jones, one of your colleagues, told us a normal level would be around 200,000. so is that the kind of number you mean? 200,000. so is that the kind of numberyou mean? i 200,000. so is that the kind of number you mean? i understand the auestion number you mean? i understand the question and — number you mean? i understand the question and i _ number you mean? i understand the question and i know _ number you mean? i understand the question and i know that _ number you mean? i understand the question and i know that you - number you mean? i understand the question and i know that you are i question and i know that you are effectively trying to suggest i set a target or a broad target, i am not going to do that. we are going to be clear, net migration must come down, we believe it is really important and what keir has set out is a commitment that we will bring net migration down. butjust to go to the heart of what we would do, to give you a sense of the differences that we would make, engineering visas have doubled in the last few years, engineering apprenticeships have halved. construction visas have trebled, construction visas are down ijy trebled, construction visas are down by 50%. social care has gone from 3000 visas per year, to over 100,000, at the same time that the

government was halving the social care recruitment programme in the uk. so, oursystem would care recruitment programme in the uk. so, our system would say, we would restrict, we would have both restrictions on the visas but also have this requirement to put the new training and the skills and the recruitment plans in place. fiend training and the skills and the recruitment plans in place. and many --eole recruitment plans in place. and many people think— recruitment plans in place. and many people think that _ recruitment plans in place. and many people think that is _ recruitment plans in place. and many people think that is a _ recruitment plans in place. and many people think that is a laudable - people think that is a laudable goal, to try try to train up more british workers to fill those posts, and yet i think many people watching this morning will want to know more clearly what you mean by bringing immigration down. i am not asking you to set a target, i am asking what kind of thing do you mean when you say a significant change. and a member of your party, of the shadow cabinet, has previously said to us that 200,000 would be a normal level. so, do you agree, would that be a "normal" level? i level. so, do you agree, would that be a "normal" level?— be a "normal" level? i understand the oint be a "normal" level? i understand the point you _ be a "normal" level? i understand the point you are _ be a "normal" level? i understand the point you are making, - be a "normal" level? i understand the point you are making, laura, l be a "normal" level? i understand i the point you are making, laura, but i am not going to set a target. i5 i am not going to set a target. is it not meaningless to say that migration must come down and then

not even to put a vague number on it, to say you want to see it halving, or come down by 25%...? what the conservatives have done is... i what the conservatives have done is... ., ., what the conservatives have done is... . but what the conservatives have done is- - -— iout iti is... i am asking about you. but it is... i am asking about you. but it is important _ is... i am asking about you. but it is important to — is... i am asking about you. but it is important to say _ is... i am asking about you. but it is important to say why _ is... i am asking about you. but it is important to say why we - is... i am asking about you. but it is important to say why we are i is important to say why we are taking a different approach. we are setting out policies we would pursue the so that people can see the kind of difference they would make. so when you look at for example the way that in 18 months you saw this massive increase in social care visa recruitment from abroad — we shouldn't be in a situation where our social care sector has to recruit so heavily from abroad. what recruit so heavily from abroad. what social care bosses _ recruit so heavily from abroad. what social care bosses would _ recruit so heavily from abroad. what social care bosses would say is that they desperately need the staff, so, who are you saying should not come? and who are the rogue employers, or bad bosses, that keir starmer is talking about?— talking about? well, take engineering, _ talking about? well, take engineering, for - talking about? well, take| engineering, for example, engineering, for example, engineering has been on the shortage occupation list for decades and yet there has been no proper plan to make sure that we get the

engineering training we need in the uk, and the opposite has happened, engineering apprenticeships have actually halved. so, labour is not only setting out plans to reform the apprenticeship levy so that we can actually get more training in place, but also setting out plans to get more people back into work, because we would increase the uk workforce if the ambition that liz kendall has set out, that would be over1 million more people in the uk residents in the workforce. we are setting out those things but we are also saying, if you have got something like engineering or social care or health, or it or construction, those are the five key sectors, we are identifying now, will need major workforce plans in place. to get the recruitment here in the uk. not simply have this continual dependence on overseas recruitment. but continual dependence on overseas recruitment-— recruitment. but if you will not tell us how _ recruitment. but if you will not tell us how much _ recruitment. but if you will not tell us how much you - recruitment. but if you will not tell us how much you want i recruitment. but if you will not tell us how much you want to i recruitment. but if you will not i tell us how much you want to reduce migration by, can you tell us by when viewers could expect they would be a significant difference if labour wins the election? we would exect to

labour wins the election? we would expect to see _ labour wins the election? we would expect to see the _ labour wins the election? we would expect to see the numbers - labour wins the election? we would expect to see the numbers coming l expect to see the numbers coming down swiftly. we have supported some of the measures that are expected to come in, and we also want to make sure that we can move quickly on some of these recruitment areas that really it is just notjustified go have the overseas recruitment. we think the heart of this, there is a difference in approach, what conservatives have done over the last five years is to have effectively a free market, unregulated approach to migration. we don't think that is white. we think you need intervention, you need both controls of the system has to be controlled and managed, and you also need the intervention to have a proper, managed plan. —— right. pm have a proper, managed plan. -- riuht. �* , have a proper, managed plan. -- riuht. . , , . right. an independent body which sets which industries _ right. an independent body which sets which industries can... i right. an independent body which sets which industries can... and i right. an independent body which l sets which industries can... and we would strengthen _ sets which industries can... and we would strengthen that. _ sets which industries can... and we would strengthen that. i _ sets which industries can... and we would strengthen that. i want i sets which industries can... and we would strengthen that. i want to i would strengthen that. i want to move on to _ would strengthen that. i want to move on to illegal— would strengthen that. i want to move on to illegal migration. i would strengthen that. i want to i move on to illegal migration. on would strengthen that. i want to i move on to illegal migration. on day one, if you win, you would be dealing with a large number of people who have come to this country without permission, more than 100,000 people stuck in the system. do you rule out sending asylum

seekers to another country to have their claims processed? 50. seekers to another country to have their claims processed?— seekers to another country to have their claims processed? so, we are not auoin their claims processed? so, we are not going to _ their claims processed? so, we are not going to do _ their claims processed? so, we are not going to do the _ their claims processed? so, we are not going to do the rwanda - their claims processed? so, we are. not going to do the rwanda scheme. that is the kind of skin that you are talking about. we are not going to do the rwanda scheme. the things we have to do, the first priorities is, the border security command to prevent boats arriving in the first place. prevent boats arriving in the first lace. , ., prevent boats arriving in the first lace, , ., ., prevent boats arriving in the first lace. , ,, ,, i prevent boats arriving in the first place-_ i will - prevent boats arriving in the first place._ i will answeri place. first of all... i will answer our place. first of all... i will answer your question. — place. first of all... i will answer your question, because - place. first of all... i will answer your question, because it - place. first of all... i will answer your question, because it is i your question, because it is relevant. to clear the backlog and to end asylum hotel use, and to put a new return is and enforcement unit in place to actually get proper returns where people have no right to be here. your question was, might there be other, future arrangements and so on? keir has always said we would look at what works, and there are different kinds of offshore processing arrangements that have already been used at different times in the past, for example, the dublin agreement did mean that under that

scheme, some people were returned to france or to germany or other countries. while they were processed. countries. while they were processed-— countries. while they were rocessed. ., ., ., processed. so, you would not do the rwanda scheme, _ processed. so, you would not do the rwanda scheme, we _ processed. so, you would not do the rwanda scheme, we have _ processed. so, you would not do the rwanda scheme, we have heard i processed. so, you would not do the rwanda scheme, we have heard that many times from labour politicians, but you are saying that you might potentially send asylum seekers who are stuck in the system here to another country to have their claims processed, it might be something you would look at? that processed, it might be something you would look at?— would look at? that is certainly what used _ would look at? that is certainly what used to _ would look at? that is certainly what used to happen _ would look at? that is certainly what used to happen as - would look at? that is certainly what used to happen as part i would look at? that is certainly what used to happen as part of| would look at? that is certainly i what used to happen as part of the dublin scheme and we would look at what works. but the priority is the border security command and also ending asylum hotel use. see how quickly do you think you would stop using hotels? if you did it overnight people would have nowhere to go. irate it overnight people would have nowhere to go.— it overnight people would have nowhere to go. it overnight people would have nowhere to no. ~ ., .,, nowhere to go. we looked if that was ossible to nowhere to go. we looked if that was possible to do _ nowhere to go. we looked if that was possible to do within _ nowhere to go. we looked if that was possible to do within a _ nowhere to go. we looked if that was possible to do within a year— nowhere to go. we looked if that was possible to do within a year of- possible to do within a year of having the additional staff in place. we will look again at what the crisis is that we inherit from the crisis is that we inherit from the conservatives, because we understand the backlog is starting

to go back up again because of the way they are just not taking decisions. the costs are just massive at the moment. but decisions. the costs are 'ust massive at the moment. but it might take a ear massive at the moment. but it might take a year or — massive at the moment. but it might take a year or so _ massive at the moment. but it might take a year or so to _ massive at the moment. but it might take a year or so to get _ massive at the moment. but it might take a year or so to get to _ massive at the moment. but it might take a year or so to get to grips i take a year or so to get to grips with that?— with that? that was our initial assessment, _ with that? that was our initial assessment, it _ with that? that was our initial assessment, it would - with that? that was our initial assessment, it would take i with that? that was our initial- assessment, it would take around a year to end hotel use. but we need to start saving money straightaway. it is costing the taxpayer billions and billions of pounds for this failing system. 50 and billions of pounds for this failing system.— and billions of pounds for this failing system. so much to talk about, failing system. so much to talk about. but _ failing system. so much to talk about. but i — failing system. so much to talk about, but i want _ failing system. so much to talk about, but i want to _ failing system. so much to talk about, but i want to race i failing system. so much to talk- about, but i want to race something we have talked about a lot on this programme around the risks to children online and mobile phone use. one of the casualties of calling the election date was that the new law that entitled bereaved parents access to their children's data that had been on their mobile phones was dropped, it did not make it through. would labour commit to doing that, to making that change straightaway if you win? we doing that, to making that change straightaway if you win?— doing that, to making that change straightaway if you win? we do need to ursue straightaway if you win? we do need to pursue this _ straightaway if you win? we do need to pursue this again _ straightaway if you win? we do need to pursue this again and _ straightaway if you win? we do need to pursue this again and there i straightaway if you win? we do need to pursue this again and there are i straightaway if you win? we do need to pursue this again and there are a | to pursue this again and there are a series of areas where we need quite

urgent action around online safety, around implementing online safety measures, but also the kind of things you are talking about. it was a very specific _ things you are talking about. it was a very specific thing, _ things you are talking about. it was a very specific thing, it _ things you are talking about. it was a very specific thing, it was - a very specific thing, it was promised to those families. would ou do it promised to those families. would you do it straightaway? _ promised to those families. would you do it straightaway? yes, i promised to those families. would you do it straightaway? yes, as i promised to those families. would l you do it straightaway? yes, as fast as legislation as possible. we you do it straightaway? yes, as fast as legislation as possible.— as legislation as possible. we have to talk about _ as legislation as possible. we have to talk about diane _ as legislation as possible. we have to talk about diane abbott. - as legislation as possible. we have to talk about diane abbott. shami | to talk about diane abbott. shami chakrabarti has vocalised what a lot of people think this week that this was a very ugly row and somebody who is much admired by many people in the country was very unpleasantly treated. was diane abbott offered a peerage to stand out as an mp? irlat peerage to stand out as an mp? not that i peerage to stand out as an mp? not that i know, — peerage to stand out as an mp? ii5>t that i know, that is not the way the system works, you have to have proper systems in place that have to go through the independent appointments commission for the house of lords. shes appointments commission for the house of lords.— appointments commission for the house of lords. as far as you know, she was not — house of lords. as far as you know, she was not offered _ house of lords. as far as you know, she was not offered a _ house of lords. as far as you know, she was not offered a peerage i house of lords. as far as you know, she was not offered a peerage to i she was not offered a peerage to stand out?— she was not offered a peerage to stand out? ila. keir starmersaid she was not offered a peerage to stand out? ila. keir starmer said for stand out? no. keir starmer said for man stand out? il53 keir starmer said for many months whilst this was all going on that diane abbot�*s

investigation was still being pursued when actually we know now that it was finished five months ago. why wasn't he straight about it? i ago. why wasn't he straight about it? ., �* ~ ., ., ago. why wasn't he straight about it? ~ ., ., ,,, it? i don't know what the processes have been- — it? i don't know what the processes have been- i _ it? i don't know what the processes have been. i know— it? i don't know what the processes have been. i know when _ it? i don't know what the processes have been. i know when you - it? i don't know what the processes have been. i know when you have l have been. i know when you have these kind of complaints process, there are conclusions that comes to and if there are other steps that need to be taken. i don't know what the course of this one has been. it is probably right that i shouldn't as a member of the shadow cabinet, it is not something for the shadow cabinet to be involved in. obviously everyone would want these processes to happen as swiftly as possible and i am really glad it is now resolved with diane and i am glad she is back in the parliamentary labour party. i think that really important.- think that really important. would ou like think that really important. would you like her— think that really important. would you like her to _ think that really important. would you like her to stand? _ think that really important. would you like her to stand? shami i you like her to stand? shami chakrabarti says she is thinking about it, would you like to see her stand? , ., , , , about it, would you like to see her stand? , ., _ , ., stand? obviously it is important if she decides _ stand? obviously it is important if she decides to _ stand? obviously it is important if she decides to stand. _ stand? obviously it is important if she decides to stand. it _ stand? obviously it is important if she decides to stand. it has i stand? obviously it is important if she decides to stand. it has to i stand? obviously it is important if she decides to stand. it has to be| she decides to stand. it has to be her decision. i did listen to what shami said, she was very close to

diane. diane has to decide and i fully support that. diane has continued to be a really important figure in the labour party, notjust because of the trailblazing people have talked about, but some of the things she did. for example, she was crucial to exposing the windrush scandal and holding the government to account on that.— to account on that. thank you, so much we could _ to account on that. thank you, so much we could have _ to account on that. thank you, so much we could have talked i to account on that. thank you, so| much we could have talked about, to account on that. thank you, so i much we could have talked about, but we covered a lot of ground. great to have you in the studio. rishi sunak has been busy arond the country, whether kicking a ball, feeding lambs, or visiting workplaces. they have been churning out more policies than the other parties so far, but will it make any difference to them in the polls? victoria atkins, the health secretary for england, is here. good to have you with us as well. let's talk about promises, because thatis let's talk about promises, because that is what elections are about. past and present. today you are

announcing 100 new gp surgeries, but we have checked the figures and you have shut 400 and 50 cents 2013, so are you fixing your mistakes?- are you fixing your mistakes? hello, laura. in terms _ are you fixing your mistakes? hello, laura. in terms of _ are you fixing your mistakes? hello, laura. in terms of promises, - are you fixing your mistakes? hello, laura. in terms of promises, of i laura. in terms of promises, of course we have put these promises forward in the election. my promise to the british people is i want a reform in our national health service to be faster, simpler and fairer. one of the ways we are doing this is to build a new gp practices, but also to refurbish a further 150 gp practices. we also want to ensure that we bring health care closer into our communities. so we are building on the success of pharmacy first, started at the beginning of the year, and we want to expand the services available for that. if we can have the most basic conditions treated in pharmacies that frees up gp appointment times. the problem with that is you _ gp appointment times. the problem with that is you have _ gp appointment times. the problem with that is you have shut _ gp appointment times. the problem with that is you have shut 450 i gp appointment times. the problem with that is you have shut 450 gp i with that is you have shut a50 gp surgeries since 2013 and if you look

at pharmacies, the funding for those services has gone down one third since 2015 and more than 1000 of them have shut. so in both of these cases, it might be all very well you promising that now, but it will sound like a lot of people that you are trying to unpick the mistakes the tories have already made. 1with the tories have already made. with pharmacies — the tories have already made. with pharmacies we _ the tories have already made. ti pharmacies we know that four out the tories have already made. if�*u pharmacies we know that four out of five people are within a 20 minute walk of their nearest pharmacy and importantly there is a much higher concentration of pharmacies in deprived areas which means that for the basic conditions we will be able to secure a faster access to health care. h, to secure a faster access to health care. p, , t , t, care. the point here, services have disappeared- _ care. the point here, services have disappeared- if _ care. the point here, services have disappeared. if i _ care. the point here, services have disappeared. if i may _ care. the point here, services have disappeared. if i may gp _ care. the point here, services have disappeared. if i may gp point - care. the point here, services have disappeared. if i may gp point we i disappeared. if i may gp point we have 2711 more _ disappeared. if i may gp point we have 2711 more gps _ disappeared. if i may gp point we have 2711 more gps working - disappeared. if i may gp point we have 2711 more gps working in - disappeared. if i may gp point we | have 2711 more gps working in the nhs than even in 2019. the pepulation _ nhs than even in 2019. the pepulation is _ nhs than even in 2019. the population is bigger. we . nhs than even in 2019. the l population is bigger. we have nhs than even in 2019. the - population is bigger. we have seen record numbers _ population is bigger. we have seen record numbers working _ population is bigger. we have seen record numbers working across - record numbers working across primary care, 13,000 more staff. if you go to some of the gp practices

that i see on my travels as health secretary, you will see that the practices have notjust gps, but they are supported by physios, they are supported by nurses and paramedics, so there are different ways in which people can access primary care. ways in which people can access primary care-— primary care. the point is this, nobody for _ primary care. the point is this, nobody for a — primary care. the point is this, nobody for a second _ primary care. the point is this, nobody for a second would - primary care. the point is this, | nobody for a second would want primary care. the point is this, - nobody for a second would want to say that there is not great care in lots of parts of the country, nobody would want to say that. the point i am asking you to address is that you are making promises today about gps and you are making promises today about pharmacies, but on both those fronts since the conservatives have beenin fronts since the conservatives have been in charge there have been many closures of gp surgeries, there have been many closures of pharmacies and voters know that, they see that in their own communities, so why should they trust the promises you are making to them now?— they trust the promises you are making to them now? they trust the promises you are makin: to them now? �* , . making to them now? because we made a really serious — making to them now? because we made a really serious promise _ making to them now? because we made a really serious promise at _ making to them now? because we made a really serious promise at the _ making to them now? because we made a really serious promise at the 2019 - a really serious promise at the 2019 election that we would ensure there were 50 million more gp appointments a year than in 2019. we hit that

target this year and indeed we have exceeded its. 62 million gp appointments were delivered in the last year. what that means is it is an average of aa more appointments per gp practice and we know that an average gp practice delivers some 50,000 appointments a year. the point about gp practices closing that you have raised, of course there will be turn around in a local population of 55 million. it is more than churn. but what we are doing is new gp practices so we can offer even more appointments than we are already doing. there are 1 million gp appointments every single working day in the nhs in england and so the scale of this is enormous. but we have very clear plan is notjust on the provision of bricks and mortar, but training up gps. we have a long—term workforce plan which has beenin long—term workforce plan which has been in operation for a year, we want to see a doubling of gp training places by the end of the

decade. �* , ., ~ training places by the end of the decade. �*, ., ~ ., ., , decade. let's talk about a different romise, decade. let's talk about a different promise. your— decade. let's talk about a different promise, your prime _ decade. let's talk about a different promise, your prime minister's - promise, your prime minister's promised to get waiting lists falling. he promised that at the beginning of 2023, but people in this election will be judging you in your record over the long term. i want to show you what has happened to waiting lists over the long term. this shows very clearly before covid and before the nhs strikes, waiting lists were already on the rise. they went up significantly during covid, but during the period that the conservatives have been in charge waiting lists have gone up and up and up. now, are you proud of that? too many of our viewers, everybody knows this in real life, everybody knows this in real life, everybody knows somebody who is waiting and in pain. hf knows somebody who is waiting and in pain. nh knows somebody who is waiting and in ain. ., , knows somebody who is waiting and in ain, ., , , ., pain. if i may 'ust deal with the a-rahic pain. if i mayjust deal with the graphic festival. _ pain. if i mayjust deal with the graphic festival. we _ pain. if i mayjust deal with the graphic festival. we know - pain. if i mayjust deal with the graphic festival. we know howl pain. if i mayjust deal with the - graphic festival. we know how hard the pandemic hit the nhs and that is

a fact. we know, for example, the number of cancer referrals has increased dramatically since the pandemic, understandably, because of lockdown people were not able to go to hospital to get things checked out. h, , to hospital to get things checked out. ,., , , to hospital to get things checked out. , , , ., out. the point is this happen before the pandemic _ out. the point is this happen before the pandemic. i— out. the point is this happen before the pandemic. i promise _ out. the point is this happen before the pandemic. i promise i— out. the point is this happen before the pandemic. i promise i will- out. the point is this happen before the pandemic. i promise i will get. the pandemic. i promise i will get there. the pandemic. i promise i will get there- when _ the pandemic. i promise i will get there. when i _ the pandemic. i promise i will get there. when i look _ the pandemic. i promise i will get there. when i look at, _ the pandemic. i promise i will get there. when i look at, as - the pandemic. i promise i will get there. when i look at, as i - the pandemic. i promise i will get there. when i look at, as i do - the pandemic. i promise i will get. there. when i look at, as i do every single day, when i look at where we are now as opposed to 2010, there are now as opposed to 2010, there are a couple of things that emerge. first of all, dementia is increasing at a rate that even 15 years ago health professionals would have been surprised by. that is because we are living longer and we are developing more conditions and living with more conditions. in response to that we have provided 25.6 million more outpatient appointments than in 2010. ., , ., outpatient appointments than in 2010. o, , i, ~ 2010. that is in a year. but the oint is 2010. that is in a year. but the point is that — 2010. that is in a year. but the

point is that people _ 2010. that is in a year. but the point is that people do - 2010. that is in a year. but the point is that people do not - 2010. that is in a year. but the point is that people do not feelj point is that people do not feel helped by statistics. they feel upset that over a period of many years many people believe the quality of health care that they have received and that they can expect to get from the state has declined despite record amounts of cash going in. declined despite record amounts of cash going in-_ cash going in. because of this demand our _ cash going in. because of this demand our response - cash going in. because of this demand our response has - cash going in. because of this. demand our response has been cash going in. because of this - demand our response has been to put in a recovery plan after the pandemic and we have seen waiting lists four by 200000 since i became health secretary. but importantly, we have been focusing, as you rightly say, on the longest waits and we have virtually averted the longest waits, 18 months and above. in contrast to labour in wales, they have the longest waiting times in great britain. we have the longest waiting times in great britain.— great britain. we have already talked to labour— great britain. we have already talked to labour in _ great britain. we have already talked to labour in the - great britain. we have already - talked to labour in the programme. it is important because it is evidence of how they run the health system and they have a waiting list that are longer than in england. we have a recovery plan to help waiting

lists. we know now that the average waiting time for people is just under 15 weeks, and if we carry on with our plan we will absolutely hit that target of 18 weeks as we have set out in the nhs constitution with doctors and nurses working around the clock to make that happen. imilton the clock to make that happen. when ou talk the clock to make that happen. when you talk about _ the clock to make that happen. when you talk about doctors _ the clock to make that happen. when you talk about doctors and _ the clock to make that happen. when you talk about doctors and nurses and people who run hospitals and gps, what is the almost universal cry from them is you can't fix any of this. you cannot affect any of the statistics in a big way unless you fix how we care for the most elderly and the most vulnerable in our society with social care. in 2019 boris said you cannot fix the nhs without fixing social care, he proclaimed that outside downing street, there is his quote. theresa may promised that in 2017. go back further and david cameron and george osborne used to promise that. that was a big problem that successive

conservative prime ministers, we have had plenty of them, promised to fix and have not. will there be a plan to fix social care in your manifesto this time around? we alread manifesto this time around? , already have a ten year plan to improve and to provide the social care that we want our grandparents, our parents, to have. we have invested in that and we are beginning to see... for example, earlier you were talking about immigration levels and in fact what we have seen is a small, i accept that, but a small increase in the number of the social care workforce because they are critical to delivering this care. what is more, we have wanted to professionalise that really important occupation and so through our recruitment and retention work with the social care workforce that is one of the ways in which we will drive real improvements.- which we will drive real improvements. which we will drive real imrovements. ., ~ ., ., improvements. you know that time after time after _ improvements. you know that time after time after time _ improvements. you know that time after time after time a _ improvements. you know that time after time after time a major - improvements. you know that time | after time after time a major reform of social care has been delayed

again and again and again by successive conservative governments. you accept, hand on heart, that that is a failure of the last 1a years? i is a failure of the last ia years? i would say it is a failure of the last 1a years? i would say it goes further back than that if we are being frank. 1&1 would say it goes further back than that if we are being frank.- that if we are being frank. 1a years is uuite a already through the work that we have done with a better care fund and the integrated care boards, a bit ofjargon, but it is bringing health care and social care together and we are seeing much morejoin up with older patients being released from a&e into the appropriate care setting. we from a&e into the appropriate care settina.~ . w' from a&e into the appropriate care settina.~ . , ,., setting. we checked the numbers on this. there are _ setting. we checked the numbers on this. there are 12,000 _ setting. we checked the numbers on this. there are 12,000 people - setting. we checked the numbers on this. there are 12,000 people stuck| this. there are 12,000 people stuck in hospitals who could not be discharged because they cannot be sent home because the help they need is not there. that figure has stayed stubbornly at a roundabout that level for a long, long time. i ask again, do you accept, hand on heart, and i think you are a pretty candid

politician, that actually after 1a years in charge not tackling the social care system has been a failure? a, social care system has been a failure? , m social care system has been a failure? , ,, social care system has been a failure? , , social care system has been a failure? may i pick you up on the 12,000 failure? may i pick you up on the 12.000 point. — failure? may i pick you up on the 12,000 point, so _ failure? may i pick you up on the 12,000 point, so that _ failure? may i pick you up on the 12,000 point, so that is - failure? may i pick you up on the l 12,000 point, so that is everybody in hospital. i appreciate some of them may be older patients needing specialist and appropriate care, but there are other occasions. example, people living with mental health illness, people who need help to get home but they don't need a social care package. home but they don't need a social care package-— home but they don't need a social care package. home but they don't need a social care hackae_' i1 i1 i , , care package. 12,000 people stuck in hosital. .. care package. 12,000 people stuck in hospital- -- i — care package. 12,000 people stuck in hospital... i examine _ care package. 12,000 people stuck in hospital... i examine every _ care package. 12,000 people stuck in hospital... i examine every cross - care package. 12,000 people stuck in hospital... i examine every cross we | hospital... i examine every cross we in, week hospital... i examine every cross we in. week out- _ hospital... i examine every cross we in. week out- it _ hospital... i examine every cross we in, week out. it is _ hospital... i examine every cross we in, week out. it is the _ hospital... i examine every cross we in, week out. it is the same - hospital... i examine every cross we in, week out. it is the same as - hospital... i examine every cross we in, week out. it is the same as it - in, week out. it is the same as it was in 2010- _ in, week out. it is the same as it was in 2010. that _ in, week out. it is the same as it was in 2010. that demonstrates | in, week out. it is the same as it. was in 2010. that demonstrates the chan . e in was in 2010. that demonstrates the change in society — was in 2010. that demonstrates the change in society that _ was in 2010. that demonstrates the change in society that we _ was in 2010. that demonstrates the change in society that we are - was in 2010. that demonstrates the change in society that we are trying | change in society that we are trying to respond to through, as i say, a range of measures, notjust in relation to social care, but through the announcements we made today. we are constructing 50 new community diagnostic centres on top of the 160 we have rolled out. we have had the

biggest investment in scanners in the history of nhs through this and that means people will get diagnosed more quickly and treated more quickly. you asked for evidence and we know these centres produce some 7 million more tests, scans and checks, which helps people get that treatment more quickly. the national audit office said only 11 of them would be deemed technically as new hospitals, and only a handful of them have open, so why would people believe your promises now, when that huge promise that boris johnson promises now, when that huge promise that borisjohnson used to get the crowd to chance, that has not been kept? crowd to chance, that has not been ke t? . , ., , crowd to chance, that has not been ket? . ,., , ., crowd to chance, that has not been ke-t? ., ,., , ., ii" kept? that promise was made in 2019. the pandemic— kept? that promise was made in 2019. the pandemic hit _ kept? that promise was made in 2019. the pandemic hit us _ kept? that promise was made in 2019. the pandemic hit us pretty _ kept? that promise was made in 2019. the pandemic hit us pretty much - the pandemic hit us pretty much immediately afterwards. lily both the nhs and the construction industry were affected by that but as soon as we were able to, we got building again. —— clearly. we have six new hospitals open to patients today, two more by the end of the year, and 18 currently in

construction. but labour will stop all construction projects, all capital projects, they have promised it in their health mission, so if there is ac/dc in corby, if there is a new hospital being built in whipps cross, i want to get the diggers in the ground within weeks, labour is going to stop it. just the ground within weeks, labour is going to stop it— going to stop it. just before we close, i going to stop it. just before we close. i want — going to stop it. just before we close, i want to _ going to stop it. just before we close, i want to ask _ going to stop it. just before we close, i want to ask you, - going to stop it. just before we close, i want to ask you, we i going to stop it. just before we . close, i want to ask you, we asked yvette cooper, that very specific promise to bereaved parents, that they would be able to access their children's social media accounts, that was dropped during the wash up, the law did not make it through when the law did not make it through when the election was called, if you win, would you commit to bringing that back as soon as possible for those families? ., ., ., , families? so, i have enormous sympathy _ families? so, i have enormous sympathy for _ families? so, i have enormous sympathy for those _ families? so, i have enormous sympathy for those families, l families? so, i have enormous. sympathy for those families, we families? so, i have enormous - sympathy for those families, we have to make decisions by collective responsibility, if it was my decision alone, it would be a big yes but let's wait and see what the manifesto says.— manifesto says. victoria atkins, thank ou manifesto says. victoria atkins, thank you for— manifesto says. victoria atkins, thank you for coming _ manifesto says. victoria atkins, thank you for coming in, - manifesto says. victoria atkins, thank you for coming in, it - manifesto says. victoria atkins, thank you for coming in, it is i manifesto says. victoria atkins, i thank you for coming in, it is great to have you with us in the studio. what do you think? let us know.

e—mail us at kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk, or on social use the hashtag bbclaurak and we'll try and share some of of the converation later in the show. andy street, what did you make of victoria atkins' answers on the nhs? what i made of it is, you showed a graph, no—one is arguing about that, but there is another graph, and that is the amount of investment that this government has put in, and that would show a huge piece, there is a real, real deep issue here, and the only way we are going to get the outcomes we need for people, i understand people are frustrated, the government say they are investing hugely, they have invested investing hugely, they have invested in more doctors and nurses, that is true, is actually looking at a total system, and this piece about diagnostics in the community, particularly the toughest parts of the community, and that investment in primary care, for me, that is part of the solution to this which we have spoken insufficiently about. daisy, what did you make of what she

has to say? i daisy, what did you make of what she has to sa ? ~ , , has to say? i think she is defending the indefensible. _ has to say? i think she is defending the indefensible. the _ has to say? i think she is defending the indefensible. the conservatives promised _ the indefensible. the conservatives promised to recruit 6000 new gps and they haven't, to build a0 hospitals and they— they haven't, to build a0 hospitals and they haven't. 700 pharmacies have _ and they haven't. 700 pharmacies have closed since 2015. the reality is that _ have closed since 2015. the reality is that the — have closed since 2015. the reality is that the conservatives have completely gutted public health and primary— completely gutted public health and primary care. as a result much of the money— primary care. as a result much of the money that they are spending is on firefighting with p. in a&e because _ on firefighting with p. in a&e because they could not get the treatment when they needed it which is one _ treatment when they needed it which is one of— treatment when they needed it which is one of the reasons why we are announcing — is one of the reasons why we are announcing today that we would reverse — announcing today that we would reverse those savage conservative cuts to _ reverse those savage conservative cuts to public health budgets by investing £1 billion a year to get that spending up to 2015 levels in real terms. that spending up to 2015 levels in real terms-— that spending up to 2015 levels in realterms. ~ ., ., ., , real terms. where would that money come from? — real terms. where would that money come from? it _ real terms. where would that money come from? it is _ real terms. where would that money come from? it is easy _ real terms. where would that money come from? it is easy to _ real terms. where would that money come from? it is easy to say, - real terms. where would that money come from? it is easy to say, it - real terms. where would that money come from? it is easy to say, it is i come from? it is easy to say, it is lovely to spend money on health in the community but where do you get the community but where do you get the cash from? {lit the community but where do you get the cash from?— the cash from? of this particular ledue the cash from? of this particular pledge would — the cash from? of this particular pledge would be _ the cash from? of this particular pledge would be funded - the cash from? of this particular pledge would be funded by - the cash from? of this particular i pledge would be funded by cracking down on _ pledge would be funded by cracking down on tax avoidance. every olitical down on tax avoidance. every political party _ down on tax avoidance. every political party always - down on tax avoidance. every political party always says i down on tax avoidance. every| political party always says that down on tax avoidance. every i political party always says that and the returns are not always what they hope for. taste the returns are not always what they hoe for. ~ ., the returns are not always what they ho -e for. ~ ., ., the returns are not always what they hoe for. ~ ., ., , hope for. we will have a fully costed manifesto _ hope for. we will have a fully costed manifesto but - hope for. we will have a fully costed manifesto but the i costed manifesto but the conservatives themselves have said that they _ conservatives themselves have said that they think they could raise £6 billion— that they think they could raise £6 billion from cracking down on tax

avoidance, — billion from cracking down on tax avoidance, so the question arises, why they— avoidance, so the question arises, why they haven't done it already. shami _ why they haven't done it already. shami chakrabarti, listening to yvette cooper on migration, labour is trying to talk tough on immigration, we have heard it before, are you relaxed about the tone from them, and also, is it coherent to voters to say you want to bring migration down but then not go anywhere near giving even a vague number? i go anywhere near giving even a vague number? ., ., _ ~ number? i have to say i think if it was riaht number? i have to say i think if it was right not _ number? i have to say i think if it was right not to _ number? i have to say i think if it was right not to take _ number? i have to say i think if it was right not to take your - number? i have to say i think if it was right not to take your bait i number? i have to say i think if it was right not to take your bait on j was right not to take your bait on this number. but was right not to take your bait on this number-— this number. but how can people know? i think _ this number. but how can people know? i think what _ this number. but how can people know? i think what they - this number. but how can people know? i think what they want i this number. but how can people know? i think what they want to | this number. but how can people i know? i think what they want to know is that we will — know? i think what they want to know is that we will prioritise _ know? i think what they want to know is that we will prioritise training i is that we will prioritise training up is that we will prioritise training up and paying social care workers from this country. i fully support that, ratherthan from this country. i fully support that, rather than bringing in cheap labour and that, rather than bringing in cheap labourand draining that, rather than bringing in cheap labour and draining potential human resources from other countries. that is a principle that i can get behind. and it's not nasty and it's not illegal, like the rwanda plan. i think it makes sense, and it's the

link between your two interviews, the social care piece, the social care timebomb, deficit, i know so many middle—aged friends of mine, about my age, who are having to deal with their older parents, who are not being looked after in the community, and such social care as we have is too privatised and too property at. it we have is too privatised and too property at— property at. it is a huge issue for many families — property at. it is a huge issue for many families but _ property at. it is a huge issue for many families but it _ property at. it is a huge issue for many families but it might i property at. it is a huge issue for many families but it might not i property at. it is a huge issue for| many families but it might not be property at. it is a huge issue for. many families but it might not be a huge issue in this campaign. —— too profiteered. now we're going to discuss with our panel who won the week? first of all the diane abbott saga. it dominated for days, stopping labourfrom concentrating headlines on its announcements. keir starmer didn't want to talk about it when he launched his battle bus with angela rayner and rachel reeves. rishi sunak�*s bus is also on the move.

there's a visible difference — he tends to appear on his own. john swinney, the snp leader, has been taking aim at labour's plans for energy. but it's ed davey who looks like he's been having the most fun. now, all three of you, i want to ask you all individually, who won the week? andy, who do you think of the best and the worst week?— best and the worst week? angela ra ner, best and the worst week? angela rayner, because _ best and the worst week? angela rayner, because she _ best and the worst week? angela rayner, because she caught i best and the worst week? angela rayner, because she caught it i best and the worst week? angela i rayner, because she caught it before her boss, and that was bred, and then i actually thinkjeremy hunt had a very good week as well because there was a very important point behind what is happening, he is actually setting the tax and spend agenda and labour are responding, and that is not a good position for the labour party to be in.- the labour party to be in. shami chakrabarti? _ the labour party to be in. shami chakrabarti? we _ the labour party to be in. shami chakrabarti? we are _ the labour party to be in. shami chakrabarti? we are still - the labour party to be in. shami chakrabarti? we are still 21 i the labour party to be in. shami i chakrabarti? we are still 21 points otentiall chakrabarti? we are still 21 points potentially ahead _ chakrabarti? we are still 21 points potentially ahead but _ chakrabarti? we are still 21 points potentially ahead but i _ chakrabarti? we are still 21 points potentially ahead but i would i chakrabarti? we are still 21 points potentially ahead but i would say| potentially ahead but i would say may be, — potentially ahead but i would say may be, decency and diane abbott. is there may be, decency and diane abbott. there not a may be, decency and diane abbott. is there not a risk that your leader looks a bit daft doing all these antics but i had no, hands down, ed davey has won the week. not only is

he having a lot of fun but all of those stunts are designed to deliver a message, as he was falling into like windermere, it was the campaign about the dumping of raw sewage, and later on, it was raising the question of the pledge to have a mental health practitioner in every single primary school and secondary school. so we take our politics very seriously but we also like to think that we do not take ourselves too seriously. if they wanted to get their pictures in all the papers, you have certainly managed to do that! let's talk about your decision this week not to stand as an mp and what has happened since you lost the mayoralty, it was a big loss for the conservatives, a very tight race, backin conservatives, a very tight race, back in the local elections, when you announced you would not run as an mp, intriguingly you said this week that you would fight for inclusive and moderate conservatism. the implication of that is that you are a bit worried that the party has taken a wrong turn, is that right? no, that is all premature, actually. what we are trying to do, what i am

trying to do in that statement is to think, hang on, how was it so, so close in the west midlands? yes, i lost and many people would say you should not even be here as someone who lost, but i think there is a lesson, we got within 1500 votes of labour at a time when the conservative party has got some challenging polls, in a place that has historically been a labour heartland, but we got so close. and how was that? it was because of the brand of conservatism that we followed. it was about an agenda which is about deliberately getting stuff done. it wasn't particularly philosophical, it was about responding to all communities, holding a broad church together. with the leadership absolutely in the middle ground, about economic competence and thinking about how you support those people through. so, my message to my party is, even in our loss, and this is why the moment was important to say it because that is when you have the most focus, about the clear message about how the conservative party can win, where it needs to focus. it is

a warning. _ win, where it needs to focus. it is a warning, though, _ win, where it needs to focus. it is a warning, though, isn't it? of. a warning, though, isn't it? of course it is. whether we win or lose the general election cover the point is simple, that you have to have that broad church, you have to be centred in the middle ground, and if you abandon that, the lessons of history are clear, if you go back 100 years, all of the big turning points in british political history, the winners have come from the centre ground, and that is my message to my party. [30 centre ground, and that is my message to my party.- centre ground, and that is my message to my party. do you think that our message to my party. do you think that your party _ message to my party. do you think that your party is — message to my party. do you think that your party is at _ message to my party. do you think that your party is at one _ message to my party. do you think that your party is at one of- message to my party. do you think that your party is at one of those . that your party is at one of those turning point scotland not necessarily. as i have said many times if you look at the composition of the current government, the most senior people in the government, many of them are from that centre ground, but who knows what the composition might be and the temptation might be, the papers are full of all of this, i would describe it as nonsense this morning, that nigel farage may be amongst the leaders of the conservative party of the future. that is not a broad conservative party with a moderate, broad appeal, and that is where it is appropriate that we think about this well before we know the outcome of any general election. one thing which might have contributed to you losing by a whisker was the decision of rishi

sunak not to proceed with plans in full for the high speed rail. you made no secret at the time, maybe you were trying to be polite through gritted teeth, but you were pretty cross about that, how much do you think it contributed to you losing? i don't think it did, actually. i am not dodging the question. i was cross, i don't agree with it, we worked hard to find, with andy burnham, an alternative, and i would say to both parties, interestingly, after the general election, go back to that alternative, which is now with the department of transport, to find better connectivity between the west midlands and greater manchester, it needs to happen, for all sorts of reasons, but i don't actually believe it was the issue on people's mines when it came to voting in this.— voting in this. lots of people in the tory party _ voting in this. lots of people in the tory party wanted - voting in this. lots of people in the tory party wanted you i voting in this. lots of people in the tory party wanted you to i voting in this. lots of people in l the tory party wanted you to run voting in this. lots of people in i the tory party wanted you to run as an mp, they did not want that to be it for you in politics, why did you decide that? 50. it for you in politics, why did you decide that?— it for you in politics, why did you decide that? ~ ., ., decide that? so, i think again there is an important _ decide that? so, i think again there is an important point _ decide that? so, i think again there is an important point about - decide that? so, i think again there is an important point about the i is an important point about the make—up of politics here. talking to so many people at the moment who aspire to be mps and i have huge respect for that critical job aspire to be mps and i have huge respect for that criticaljob so don't take that wrongly, but it is not necessarily right that everyone

who wants to contribute to political leadership, when the role of the mayor was set up, michael heseltine, george osborne, they talked about drawing different people in, people from business, and that was why it was a perfectjob for me, someone who has been in business for many years, naturally an executive, perhaps the job of mp is not necessarily right for me and i certainly enjoyed the freedom and the authority to act of being executive mayor, that is the sort of thing that must be cherished. it is ureat thing that must be cherished. it is treat to thing that must be cherished. it is great to have _ thing that must be cherished. it is great to have you here this morning sharing your freedom and authority. and talking about what happened, and in 32 days, we will have the chance to cast our ballots and choose who runs the country. but has all the frantic activity done much to change your minds so far? as ever, here's the nation's favourite number cruncher, sirjohn curtice, with his take on the polls in 60 seconds on sunday. a dozen companies have conducted polls since mr sunak fired the starting gun ten days ago. but apart from labour — upjust half a point — the changes in support

for all the parties average out at... zero. labour are still 21 points ahead of the conservatives — though the lead does vary between 12 and 27 points. one key figure in the polls is that people who voted tory in 2019 are three times more likely than labour voters to be undecided. one reason for the different poll leads is that some pollsters anticipate many of these tory voters will eventually back rishi sunak. others don't. but mr sunak also needs to win back the many voters lost to reform, whose11% vote is holding up. the liberal democrat vote is also holding steady at 9%. the greens are at a record 5%, potentially to labour's disadvantage. but it's not clear whether they will win any seats. asjohn was saying, there is a big chance for the small parties this time. the greens in england and wales

say their mainjob is to push labour to be bolder on housing and climate change too. they kicked off their campaign in bristol, where they hope to knock out labour. adrian ramos adjoins us now. you are the only party that is saying you don't necessarily believe the economy should grow, you say we should eat less, consume less, do you think that that is a message that voters are ready to hear? taste that voters are ready to hear? we have not that voters are ready to hear? we have got a — that voters are ready to hear? , have got a strong message about the sort of economy we want to see, we want to see investment and a transition to a greener economy, which will have all sorts ofjob opportunities in things like renewable energy, public transport, producing more of our food locally, insulating our homes in ways that bring people's bills down and keep homes warm. and we also want to have a farfairer economy as homes warm. and we also want to have a far fairer economy as well, and we are the only party being honest in this election, that if we are going to tackle the crisis in our nhs, the

dental desert that we have, the fact that our hospitals have patients in the corridors, people can't get the procedures that they want and need, then we are going to have to ask the very richest in society, the multimillionaires, the billionaires, to pay modestly more, in tax, in a way that would raise tens of billions, that enable us to invest in our health service. and so, we want to have a fairer society, and we are talking about the type of economy that we want to see. the im ortant economy that we want to see. the important distinction behind that is you not believe, as the others do, that the economy should be growing. that is an important principle but a markjust using gdp as a measure of economic success is a blunt instrument. it economic success is a blunt instrument-— economic success is a blunt instrument. ., , ., , economic success is a blunt instrument. ., , ., instrument. it does not tell us how uneuual instrument. it does not tell us how unequal our— instrument. it does not tell us how unequal our society _ instrument. it does not tell us how unequal our society is. _ instrument. it does not tell us how unequal our society is. whether i instrument. it does not tell us how| unequal our society is. whether our children have clean air to breathe, whether our rivers are full of sewage, whether the public services are working properly, whether people can get access to an nhs dentist. we

need a wider range of economic measures which about health, happiness, prosperity, jobs, public services, notjust one blunt measure about the amount of activity in the economy. about the amount of activity in the econom . ., ,., _ about the amount of activity in the econom . ., _ , about the amount of activity in the econom. ., _ economy. your policy documents as the population _ economy. your policy documents as the population of— economy. your policy documents as the population of the _ economy. your policy documents as the population of the uk _ economy. your policy documents as the population of the uk is - the population of the uk is consuming more than its fair share and you cite food and farming is a big source of harmful emissions and your document says the green party would use rationing to reduce the amount of meat and berry consumed in the uk. how much less milk would you want people to drink? should people be putting down their bacon sandwiches right now? taste be putting down their bacon sandwiches right now? we have not roduced sandwiches right now? we have not produced our _ sandwiches right now? we have not produced our manifesto _ sandwiches right now? we have not produced our manifesto for - sandwiches right now? we have not produced our manifesto for the i sandwiches right now? we have not| produced our manifesto for the next five years. produced our manifesto for the next five ears. , , a, produced our manifesto for the next five ears. , a, five years. this is on your policy latform five years. this is on your policy platform and — five years. this is on your policy platform and it _ five years. this is on your policy platform and it is _ five years. this is on your policy platform and it is available - five years. this is on your policy platform and it is available on i five years. this is on your policy i platform and it is available on the website. it says the green party would use rationing to reduce the amount of meat and berry food. rationing will not be in our manifesto for the next few years, i am certain it will not be. we want

to make ourfood am certain it will not be. we want to make our food system more resilient. at a time when we are seeing food prices and fuel prices going up, we are very vulnerable because we are not producing enough food at home. the farmers i speak to in suffolk and norfolk all the time say there is far more the government can be doing to support our farmers to produce more food locally, to improve the grants available for nature friendly farming where farmers tell me there is nowhere near enough money in that pot, it is too difficult to access. if we work with our farmers we can produce far more food locally and we will be more food locally and we will be more resilient to a changing climate, to international, political affairs, which we have seen with the war in ukraine can shoot these prices up. we need a far more resilient approach to farming, energy, to the way we run our economy and that is the vision we are setting out. find economy and that is the vision we are setting out.— economy and that is the vision we are setting out. and the amount of candidates in _ are setting out. and the amount of candidates in the _ are setting out. and the amount of candidates in the country - are setting out. and the amount of candidates in the country on - are setting out. and the amount of candidates in the country on that i candidates in the country on that platform, there have been a number of allegations of anti—semitic comments by some of your people

standing to be mps, including one who recently promoted a conspiracy theory that israel had conspired to allow the october the 7th attacks to take place when more than 1000 people were killed and others taken hostages. should someone who stated that be allow to stand as an mp? ida. that be allow to stand as an mp? no, they shouldn't. _ that be allow to stand as an mp? iifr, they shouldn't, and the green party takes any suggestions of anti—semitism, or indeed any form of racism, very seriously. any suggestions of inappropriate comments made in recent weeks are being investigated by the relevant people in the party. that has to be separate from the party leadership, it is a clear message of good governance. it is a clear message of good governance-— it is a clear message of good governance. it is a clear message of good covernance. . ., ., , governance. there are at least three examles governance. there are at least three examples that _ governance. there are at least three examples that have _ governance. there are at least three examples that have been _ governance. there are at least three examples that have been reported i governance. there are at least three | examples that have been reported on about people who want to be green mps who want to stand saying things on social media or lacking posts on social media. one of them said israel must be eliminated, for example. would those people be off your list? in example. would those people be off our list? ., , _, , example. would those people be off our list? .,, _, , ., your list? in the last couple of weeks there — your list? in the last couple of weeks there were _ your list? in the last couple of weeks there were three - your list? in the last couple of- weeks there were three candidates who had been selected who are no

longer going forward. i understand there is a small number more are being looked at. for the first time the green party is planning to stand candidates right across england and wales. that is 570 seats. in terms of those seats where we have got a fantastic chance of winning at this election, seats like bristol central, north herefordshire, brighton pavilion, we plan to get at least four green mps elected to push the new government to be bolder, because rather than labour�*s timid promises on public services and climate, if this government is to take the action that is needed we need green voices in parliament to push them to make the real change this country needs. we push them to make the real change this country needs.— this country needs. we don't know who the new _ this country needs. we don't know who the new government - this country needs. we don't know who the new government will - this country needs. we don't know who the new government will be, l who the new government will be, but interesting you are focusing on labour. thank you for coming in. it is always interesting to have a member of the green party here. and there will be a full list of candidates on the bbc and of course during the campaign we'll hear from all the parties. thought our election was eventful?

look across the atlantic — donald trump was convicted on more than 30 counts of falsifying business records and has said the trial was rigged. does he stand by his claim that he was taken down by a fascist state? one of his legal team alina habba told me — no doubt. absolutely, absolutely. you don't live here, i don't expect you to fully understand what we've been through, but as the attorney for the former president for the last almost three years at this point, i can assure you that we have seen some corruption that this country has frankly never seen before in ourjudicial system. it is very real, it is not posturing by any means, it is 100% a problem that this country is going to have to handle and get a grapple on in november. but he used language like claiming america is like a fascist state. that is a description that is associated with leaders over time who have been responsible for all sorts of atrocities. doesn't itjust give the impression that former president trump is a bad loser? no, i think the only bad loser

is the person who is concerned they are going to lose in november who has to use means like this to come after president trump. when you take your political opponent and try to jail them, try to keep them off the campaign trail, it's100% what they do in fascist countries. but, alina, what is your direct evidence that president biden somehow caused this trial? somehow caused these convictions in a court in a country that has a proud record of thejudiciary? when you have flawed indictments, when you do have this politicisation, ags, state officials have no business bringing federal crimes, it was flawed in itself. but there is no direct evidence of political interference in this court case. this was not brought not once, but twice. they chose not to bring this case, they said it was weak. the cda, cy vance, didn't bring this case, said it was weak. da alvin bragg, the man thatjust

brought it, said it was weak. the facts never change, this is an eight—year—old case. this was brought after president trump decided he was running for office. if you don't win an appeal, does president trump fully intend to run for the office of president of the united states as a convicted felon? absolutely. don't you think that for many voters that might be a step that they are just not willing to countenance? president trump in the last 2a hours has just raised over $15 million for his campaign. when i tell you that the support is bigger than ever, there would be a disservice to the american people if president trump quit at this point. this is selective prosecution and the constitution frankly does not warrant it. and yet, from the outside many people, notjust in the uk but around the world, actually look at donald trump as being the person who has incited division in the us. they actually look at donald trump as the person who has fallen foul of the law. they look at donald trump

as the person who incited riots onjanuary the 6th and they point the finger to him where they have concerns that he is the one who is dividing america and making inflammatory and reckless statements because he has been caught out in the courts. i'm sorry, but you are wrong and the truth of the matter is very simple. it's the people in the background, the puppeteers, the people that are sneaking around using the fbi to spy on americans, the people that are putting assets, fbi assets, into january the 6th to make it look like there was an incitement of violence. meanwhile, the police opened the doors for american citizens and invited them in. i recommend that whoever thinks that should educate themselves a little bit more on what is going on in this country. so you are suggesting that somehow donald trump is the victim of a whole conspiracy? donald trump is the victim of political selective prosecution. and if he fails in his appeal that you say you will win, and he does end up injail, will he run for president from a jail cell? he is running for president, nothing will change that. even if he ends up being locked up? again, i recommend you find the latest polls in this country

from the people that live in this country, the people that need him in this country because, frankly, it is more important than anything anybody else thinks. our people are speaking loudly, they are donating, they are small donors, and they are standing up because they are afraid because we cannot have this happen to us. that is a story that has a long way to run. donald trump will be sentenced onjuly the 11th. let's come back to these shores. shami, i have to tell viewers you are watching that with an open mouth. i will close my mouth. we _ watching that with an open mouth. i will close my mouth. we have - watching that with an open mouth. i will close my mouth. we have a - will close my mouth. we have a head-to-head _ will close my mouth. we have a head-to-head debate. - will close my mouth. we have a head-to-head debate. the - will close my mouth. we have a head-to-head debate. the first| will close my mouth. we have a - head-to-head debate. the first one, head—to—head debate. the first one, it was like christmas, easter and a birthday all at the same time. do you think this will be an important counterfor rishi sunak? he is really far behind stop how do you think he could approach this? yes.

think he could approach this? yes, these debates _ think he could approach this? yes, these debates will _ think he could approach this? yes, these debates will be _ think he could approach this? use: these debates will be seen in think he could approach this? is: these debates will be seen in all sorts of countries and they can change history. i remember richard nixon. i remember cameron and clegg. the polls are stuck. but what people will get is how and what? how are we going to grow our economy? how will we pay for all of these things? let's have some real gas in these questions. is there a plan or not? it is a really good moment for rishi sunak. d0 it is a really good moment for rishi sunak. , ., ~ it is a really good moment for rishi sunak. i. ~ , ., , sunak. do you think these actually still are moments _ sunak. do you think these actually still are moments when _ sunak. do you think these actually still are moments when people - sunak. do you think these actually i still are moments when people really tune in, daisy? still are moments when people really tune in. daisy?— tune in, daisy? they are really important. _ tune in, daisy? they are really important, actually. _ tune in, daisy? they are really important, actually. as - tune in, daisy? they are really important, actually. as andy i important, actually. as andy suggests, in this election are more than any— suggests, in this election are more than any other it will not be about what _ than any other it will not be about what are — than any other it will not be about what are you offering? it is how are you going _ what are you offering? it is how are you going to— what are you offering? it is how are you going to deliver it? people right— you going to deliver it? people right across the country are paying a huge _ right across the country are paying a huge amount in tax, public services _ a huge amount in tax, public services are on their knees, they can't _ services are on their knees, they can't see — services are on their knees, they can't see a — services are on their knees, they can't see a gp or a dentist, their children— can't see a gp or a dentist, their children are _ can't see a gp or a dentist, their children are on very long waiting lists for— children are on very long waiting lists for assessment, older parents

are waiting — lists for assessment, older parents are waiting for social care and people — are waiting for social care and people are saying how are you going to fix _ people are saying how are you going to fix it? _ people are saying how are you going to fix it? these debates need answers— to fix it? these debates need answers to all these questions. you are a lawyer — answers to all these questions. you are a lawyer and — answers to all these questions. you. are a lawyer and keir starmer is a lawyer and people will be saying how will he be prosecuted? he will be showing he is mr security, rishi sunak, and labour is a risk. iitalith sunak, and labour is a risk. with the advice _ sunak, and labour is a risk. with the advice be? _ sunak, and labour is a risk. with the advice be? i _ sunak, and labour is a risk. with the advice be? i should - sunak, and labour is a risk. with the advice be? i should not be giving — the advice be? i should not be giving advice _ the advice be? i should not be giving advice to _ the advice be? i should not be giving advice to rishi - the advice be? i should not be giving advice to rishi sunak, i the advice be? i should not be i giving advice to rishi sunak, but the advice be? i should not be . giving advice to rishi sunak, but i rememher— giving advice to rishi sunak, but i remember the _ giving advice to rishi sunak, but i remember the advice _ giving advice to rishi sunak, but i remember the advice to - giving advice to rishi sunak, but i remember the advice to liz- giving advice to rishi sunak, but i| remember the advice to liz truss, with all— remember the advice to liz truss, with all that — remember the advice to liz truss, with all that smug _ remember the advice to liz truss, with all that smug laughing, - remember the advice to liz truss, with all that smug laughing, he i remember the advice to liz truss, i with all that smug laughing, he was sarcastic. _ with all that smug laughing, he was sarcastic. he— with all that smug laughing, he was sarcastic, he was _ with all that smug laughing, he was sarcastic, he was smirking - with all that smug laughing, he was sarcastic, he was smirking and - sarcastic, he was smirking and laughing — sarcastic, he was smirking and laughing at _ sarcastic, he was smirking and laughing at her. _ sarcastic, he was smirking and laughing at her. i— sarcastic, he was smirking and laughing at her. i don't- sarcastic, he was smirking and laughing at her. i don't think. sarcastic, he was smirking and i laughing at her. i don't think we are laughing _ laughing at her. i don't think we are laughing about _ laughing at her. i don't think we are laughing about what - laughing at her. i don't think we . are laughing about what happened subsequently _ are laughing about what happened subsequently i_ are laughing about what happened subsequently. i would _ are laughing about what happened subsequently. i would probably i subsequently. iwould probably cancel— subsequently. iwould probably cancel him _ subsequently. iwould probably cancel him to— subsequently. iwould probably cancel him to maybe _ subsequently. iwould probably cancel him to maybe think- subsequently. i would probably. cancel him to maybe think about subsequently. i would probably i cancel him to maybe think about how you come _ cancel him to maybe think about how you come across _ cancel him to maybe think about how you come across.— you come across. strange things ha en in you come across. strange things happen in elections, _ you come across. strange things happen in elections, shami i happen in elections, shami chakrabarti giving advice publicly to rishi sunak. great to have all three of you with us this morning. as we go along we've been checking the politicians' facts. health secretary victoria atkins told us that one of the reasons why

waiting lists have gone up since 2010 is because demand on the nhs is going up, partially because "we're living longer". over the long term, life expectancy has gone up but if you look at office for national statistics figures, life expectancy is actually back at the same level as 2010 for women and slightly below the 2010 figures for men. yvette cooper said that the number of engineering apprenticeships had halved but that claim is based on stats which don't really give the full picture. it's true that the number has gone down but engineering uk says there's been a drop of a quarter in apprecnticeships being started since 2017, and if you look at the number in all engineering—related subjects, that's down by considerably less. there is always nuance and we will always look behind those headline claims. those headline claims. thank you to our team at the table, and to you for watching. week two of the campaign has showed labour is perfectly capable of stumbling.

and for the tories, that plentiful policy doesn't necessarily shove the polls in their direction. in the next seven days we'll see the two candidates for prime minister up close and personal. we will see what that head debate on tuesday brings. there will be coverage of that and everything else that happens in the election over the next week right across the bbc. watch any of our interviews so far of the campaign of course on iplayer, and i'll look forward to seeing you next sunday, same time, same place.

live from london, this is bbc news. in the uk the electoral campaign goes on with labour

pledging to reduce legal migration and tories promising to build 100 new doctor's surgeries. we would expect to see the numbers coming down and we would also make sure we move quickly on some of those recruitment areas. south african parties get ready for coalition talks as the ruling anc loses its majority for the first time in 30 years. two key far—right figures in israel's government are threatening to leave their posts if benjamin netanyahu agrees to the us peace proposal on gaza. the ukrainian president is in singapore — he's pushing for more military assistance as the russian offensive continues.