ijust don't labour will tax it. i “ust don't know how h labour will tax it. i “ust don't know how you _ labour will tax it. i “ust don't know how you feel _ labour will tax it. i just don't know how you feel when - labour will tax it. i just don't know how you feel when you | labour will tax it. i just don't - know how you feel when you hear a prime _ know how you feel when you hear a prime minister say, having heard what _ prime minister say, having heard what you — prime minister say, having heard what you going through, the plan is working. _ what you going through, the plan is working. is— what you going through, the plan is working, is all all right. i am ra'ini working, is all all right. i am rajini vaidyanathan, - working, is all all right. i am rajini vaidyanathan, live - working, is all all right. i am rajini vaidyanathan, live in i rajini vaidyanathan, live in salford. there is about ten minutes left of this debate. as soon as it and, i will be live in the spin room, getting the latest political reaction. in other news, major london hospitals are hit by a cyber attack, leading to cancelled operations and emergency patients being moved. tests have revealed a newborn baby discovered in an east london park earlier this year is the sister of two other children abandoned by the same parents. and we set sail with world war ii veterans as they prepare to mark the 80th anniversary of the d—day landings.

hello, i hello, lam kylie hello, i am kylie pentelow, welcome to bbc news. in the biggest set—piece event of the election so far, the two men find to be prime minister going head to head in the first tv debate which is taking place in salford. rajini vaidyanathan is in salford for us. what's the latest from there? kylie, it 'ust an what's the latest from there? kylie, itiust an hour _ what's the latest from there? kylie, itjust an hour or— what's the latest from there? kylie, itjust an hour or so, _ what's the latest from there? kylie, itjust an hour or so, the _ what's the latest from there? kylie, itjust an hour or so, the two - itjust an hour or so, the two leaders haven't asked about a range of questions, in front of a studio audience here in salford, not too farfrom where i am. the first question was about the cost—of—living crisis, and both leaders as part of the issue of taxation, with rishi sunak trying to pick the labour party as the party of higher taxes, with searcher starmer pushing back on that and saying that you have to look at the conservative record for the last iii years. so in many ways, that's been the dividing line in all of the issues they have asked about. one leader, the leader of the labour

party, searcher starmer, saying, look at the last iii years, rishi sunak sank a look at the future. other issues they sparred on was the issue of immigration and what to do with those small boat crossings. with rishi sunak maintaining that he has a plan, keir starmer saying, why are the numbers going up, in terms of those small boat crossings? things have been heeded in the course of the debate. the moderator julie etchingham saying at one point, loweryour julie etchingham saying at one point, lower your voices. other julie etchingham saying at one point, loweryourvoices. other hot button issues in any general election campaign also came up, things like they will deal with the nhs, with rising waiting lists, with the doctors and strikes that are continuing on, and more recently, in the later part of the debate, we have just been hearing about their foreign policy issues, how they would work if donald trump gets back into the white house what they will do when it comes the situation in gaza, so it's been a really broad set of issues. in some ways, so many issues, it has been hard to get into the details somewhat, but we have

seen a very fiery debate for the last hour or so, kylie, and as it wraps up in the next few moments or so, the spin room behind me will be full of the party surrogates of the representatives, senior politicians from both the labour and the conservative party who will be spinning their narrative, saying that their man did the bestjob tonight, and i'm going to go in now, kylie, get ready for that and come up kylie, get ready for that and come up live with some senior politicians to see what they make of it all. i should just say that as soon as that debate ends, there will be an exit poll that will come out and we will bring you that as well. imilli poll that will come out and we will bring you that as well. will be with ou in a bring you that as well. will be with you in a few _ bring you that as well. will be with you in a few moments, _ bring you that as well. will be with you in a few moments, rajini. - bring you that as well. will be with | you in a few moments, rajini. let's hear a little of what they had to say on their thoughts on how to read the uk economy. mark my words — labour will raise your taxes. it's in their dna. your work, your car, your pension... thank you, ok... ..you name it, labour will tax it. mr starmer was also keen to criticise his rival�*s record.

ijust don't know how you feel when you have a prime minister say, having heard what you're going through, that the plan is working, it's all all right. a long alongside a long side the economy, a staple of debate, came up the nhs, the host julie etchingham asked the two leaders a very specific question, bringing up two very different answers. hf bringing up two very different answers. , ., ., ., bringing up two very different answers. ., ., ., , bringing up two very different answers. ., ., ., ., answers. if you had loved ones on a lona answers. if you had loved ones on a long waiting — answers. if you had loved ones on a long waiting list _ answers. if you had loved ones on a long waiting list for _ answers. if you had loved ones on a long waiting list for surgery, - answers. if you had loved ones on a long waiting list for surgery, would | long waiting list for surgery, would you, long waiting list for surgery, would you. if— long waiting list for surgery, would you. if you — long waiting list for surgery, would you. if you felt _ long waiting list for surgery, would you, if you felt that _ long waiting list for surgery, would you, if you felt that that _ long waiting list for surgery, would you, if you felt that that was the l you, if you felt that that was the only way — you, if you felt that that was the only way forward, _ you, if you felt that that was the only way forward, use _ you, if you felt that that was the only way forward, use private i you, if you felt that that was the - only way forward, use private health care, _ only way forward, use private health care, rishi _ only way forward, use private health care, rishi sunak? _ only way forward, use private health care, rishi sunak?— only way forward, use private health care, rishi sunak? yes. keir- care, rishi sunak? yes. keir starmer? — care, rishi sunak? yes. keir starmer? no. _ care, rishi sunak? yes. keir starmer? no. if— care, rishi sunak? yes. keir starmer? no. if a _ care, rishi sunak? yes. keir starmer? no. if a loved - care, rishi sunak? yes. keir starmer? no. if a loved one| care, rishi sunak? yes. keir- starmer? no. if a loved one was on a waitin: starmer? if a loved one was on a waiting list, starmer?. if a loved one was on a waiting list, absolutely no? _ starmer? no. if a loved one was on a waiting list, absolutely no? no. - starmer? no. if a loved one was on a waiting list, absolutely no? no. i- waiting list, absolutely no? no. i don't use private _ waiting list, absolutely no? no. i don't use private health, - waiting list, absolutely no? no. i don't use private health, i - waiting list, absolutely no? no. i don't use private health, i use i waiting list, absolutely no? no. i| don't use private health, i use the nhs _ don't use private health, i use the nhs. ~ , . ~ don't use private health, i use the nhs. ~ , ., . ., nhs. we will be back to the election in a moment. _ nhs. we will be back to the election in a moment, but— nhs. we will be back to the election in a moment, but now— nhs. we will be back to the election in a moment, but now the _ nhs. we will be back to the election in a moment, but now the world - in a moment, but now the world biggest narendra modi has claimed a third successive victory in india with electoral commission confirming

that his bjp led coalition has taken enough seats to form a majority of the but it seems he has fallen far short of the large majority that he was hoping for. our south asia corresponds yogita limaye reports. a widely expected moment and an historic one. it is only the second time that an indian prime minister has won a third term. "it is the win of our commitment to develop india", narendra modi told his supporters. but it isn't the victory he wanted, winning fewer seats than the last election, which will damage the air of invincibility that has surrounded him and the bjp over the past ten years. perhaps the biggest shock came from ayodhya, where prime minister narendra modi inaugurated a grand hindu temple injanuary at a site that had been

disputed by hindus and muslims. expected to galvanise hindu voters, but the ruling party was defeated here by a large margin. this is how the opposition congress took in the results, with an almost equal fervour. it is rare to see this kind ofjubilation amid the losing side, but that is because over the past ten years, the congress party has suffered humiliating election defeats. and what that has resulted in is a party whose confidence was so low that they didn't believe that they could actually launch a proper challenge. so this is a celebration for being significantly back in the game. "long live rahul gandhi", supporters chanted the name of a leaderfrom india's most prominent political dynasty,

but whose capabilities and future were under question. today will mark a point of resurgence. the country has unanimously and clearly stated that they do not like the way they run this country, we do not appreciate the way they have attacked the constitution, we do not appreciate the way they have run this country for the last few years. so that is a huge message to mr narendra modi. it is a bittersweet victory for the bjp. with the numbers they have got, they cannot pass laws unilaterally. they will need to take others on board. some will see this as a win for indian democracy. yogita limaye, bbc news, delhi. in the us, president biden has cited two executive order that will impose new asylum restrictions on the southern border. the order will go into effect when the number of border encounters between words of

entry hits 2500 per day, according to senior administration officials. that means it should go into effect immediately because that figures higher than the average is now. instructions will be in effect until two weeks after the daily numbers are at or below 1500 per day over a seven day average. the white house says the new measures will come in from midnight, and the president said these powers could have been introduced by congress had the republicans not been playing games on the reforms that were proposed by a partisan committee. so on the reforms that were proposed by a partisan committee.— a partisan committee. so today, i'm movin: a partisan committee. so today, i'm moving past — a partisan committee. so today, i'm moving past republican _ a partisan committee. so today, i'm moving past republican research . a partisan committee. so today, i'm| moving past republican research and using these active authorities developed to me as president to do what i can on my own to address the border. frankly, iwould have preferred to address this issue through a bipartisan legislation, because that is the only way to actually get the kind of system we have now that's broken fixed, to hire more border patrol agents, more asylum officers, morejudges, but

republicans left me no choice. find republicans left me no choice. and rational republicans said the order was nothing more than a political stunt head of the election for some this was house speaker mikejohnson speaking just ahead of the president's announcement. it’s president's announcement. it's windowdressing. everybody knows it. if windowdressing. everybody knows it. if you _ windowdressing. everybody knows it. if you was _ windowdressing. everybody knows it. if you was concerned about the border— if you was concerned about the border he _ if you was concerned about the border he would it on this a long time _ border he would it on this a long time ago — border he would it on this a long time ago. and we don't know what's in this _ time ago. and we don't know what's in this the — time ago. and we don't know what's in this. the devil would definitely be in _ in this. the devil would definitely be in the — in this. the devil would definitely be in the details here, i can assure you _ be in the details here, i can assure ou. ., be in the details here, i can assure ou. ., ., be in the details here, i can assure ou. ., ., , several major hospitals in london have declared a critical incident because of a cyber attack. some operations have been cancelled, and there have been problems in particular with blood transfusions and test results. helena wilkinson reports. operations have had to be cancelled. blood transfusions and test results have been particularly affected. as have other routine tests. guy's and st thomas' hospital in the heart of the capital is one of the nhs trusts affected by the major it incident. king's college hospital, the royal brompton, and the evelina london children's hospital

as well as other services have been affected. about 6.50 last night, i received an e—mail and a text that both had exactly the same information on, confirming that due to circumstances beyond their control, blood tests had been cancelled for the foreseeable future. nhs england describe the impact as significant, adding that emergency care continued on the available. —— adding that emergency care continued to be available. it is thought the incident happened yesterday, some departments were unable to connect to the main server. the it service partner has said sorry to patients impacted by the disruption, recognising the upset it has caused. it is not clear how long the disruption to patients and services will last. helena wilkinson, bbc news. a newborn baby girl who was found abandoned in east london, on a freezing cold night injanuary, is the third child to be left

by the same parents. dna tests established that baby elsa is the sibling of a boy and a girl found in very similar circumstances in 2017 and 2019. as our correspondent sanchia berg reports, bbc news has been given permission to report these details after a family court judge said the story was of "great public interest". it was a bitterly cold day injanuary, when a baby girl, less than than hour old, was found here in east london. hospital staff called her elsa, after the frozen character. the bbc can now report that elsa has two full siblings, harry and roman. all three babies were abandoned in similar circumstances within two miles of each other. the baby boy, harry, was found in plaistow in september 2017, abandoned shortly after he was born. a newborn girl, roman,

came 16 months later, injanuary 2019, in a park close to the roman road after which she was named. and elsa, also newborn, was discovered this year, just a few hundred yards away. all three children's names have since been changed. this is where baby harry was found back in 2017. since then, two of his siblings have been abandoned in very similar circumstances, just hours after they were born. judge carol atkinson said it was very, very unusual for one baby to be abandoned in modern britain. for three babies to be left in this way, by the same parents, was, she said, of enormous interest. i asked one of the leading experts whether she had come across a similar case. well, i have done research in various ways for over 20 years and the answer is absolutely no. but i personally have never come across three brand new borns

from the same parent, both parents it seems. the three children are safe — adopted or in care. their mother has not come forward, despite multiple appeals over nearly seven years by the metropolitan police. they said today their investigation continues. sanchia berg reporting there. some of the last surviving veterans who fought in the second world war are in normandie to commemorate 80 years since d—day. it was a turning point in the war as allied troops landed on the coast of northern france and began deliberation from nazi occupation. john maguire reports. for many of these veterans, their departure from the shores 80 years ago, all as very young man, was their first venture overseas. cheering excitement and a sense of celebration will, in coming days, turn to commemoration.

stan ford survived as his ship was sunk by a mini submarine, but many other members of the group were killed. as you know, john, i have 32 reasons for going back, those 32 reasons are the guys who never came home. and i made that promise to myself that every opportunity, i would go back and pay my respects and honour those guys. as they left portsmouth, their modern day counterparts flew overhead in a royal air force transport plane and stood to attention, saluting on the deck of the aircraft carrier hms prince of wales — respect between the generations. john dennis has been back to normandy before, but never to the british memorial. it was very emotional, and i am afraid that will probably be a bit emotional when we get there, to see the actual thing. we will rememberthem.

as the ferry approached the french coastline, the engine slowed and the veterans paid tribute. so, a short, poignant, but highly—symbolic ceremony as a wreath were thrown over the side of the ferry. the idea is to pay tribute to those who died before even reaching the french shores and beaches they had come here to liberate. and so, to france — and two full days of ceremonies and commemorations for those who can tell the story of what happened here eight years ago first—hand. the number may be dwindling, but their commitment today, as it was then, remains immense. john maguire, bbc news, normandy.

let's return to the uk election now, and reggie need budget often is with us, you've made your way this is where all the post—analysis take place, the room was full of politicians who are trying to talk up politicians who are trying to talk up their latest performance in this debate. so let's go to wes streeting. what's your hot take on how your party did? fundamentally use saw the — how your party did? fundamentally use saw the reaction _ how your party did? fundamentally use saw the reaction from - how your party did? fundamentally use saw the reaction from the - use saw the reaction from the audience _ use saw the reaction from the audience and those test from the audience — audience and those test from the audience where the choices were very clearly— audience where the choices were very clearly laid _ audience where the choices were very clearly laid out, where keir starmer laid out _ clearly laid out, where keir starmer laid out labour's plans and how we will pay _ laid out labour's plans and how we will pay for — laid out labour's plans and how we will pay for them, and this election is a choice — will pay for them, and this election is a choice between turning the page on 14— is a choice between turning the page on 14 years _ is a choice between turning the page on 14 years of conservative failure, or with _ on 14 years of conservative failure,

or with labour. the audience responded very warmly. i thought rishi _ responded very warmly. i thought rishi sunak's best line was the one where _ rishi sunak's best line was the one where he _ rishi sunak's best line was the one where he told a barefaced lie. it is simply— where he told a barefaced lie. it is simply untrue labour will increase taxes _ simply untrue labour will increase taxes on _ simply untrue labour will increase taxes on people. we've ruled out vat rises, _ taxes on people. we've ruled out vat rises, if— taxes on people. we've ruled out vat rises, ifyou— taxes on people. we've ruled out vat rises, if you want to see a party that's— rises, if you want to see a party that's lreen— rises, if you want to see a party that's been addicted on clobbering working _ that's been addicted on clobbering working people with tax rises time and time _ working people with tax rises time and time again, it's the conservative party. that's their record — conservative party. that's their record and _ conservative party. that's their record and what they cannot answer is how _ record and what they cannot answer is how they — record and what they cannot answer is how they will plug the £71 billion— is how they will plug the £71 billion hole in their own tax and spending — billion hole in their own tax and spending plans. in fact, like tori britain, — spending plans. in fact, like tori britain, the _ spending plans. in fact, like tori britain, the lights have gone out, this is— britain, the lights have gone out, this is the — britain, the lights have gone out, this is the metaphor for the state of the _ this is the metaphor for the state of the country. if you want the lights — of the country. if you want the lights back on, vote labour. let me ask ou lights back on, vote labour. let me ask you another _ lights back on, vote labour. let me ask you another question _ lights back on, vote labour. let me ask you another question because l lights back on, vote labour. let me i ask you another question because one of the areas that got heated was on the topic of immigration, answer keir starmer was asked about using a third country to process asylum applications. but his answer wasn't

that clear on what exactly would happen to people who were coming on small boats — that's what rishi sunak was saying anyway, but will you do? sunak was saying anyway, but will ou do? ., , . ., , , you do? one of the big challenges is we've not you do? one of the big challenges is we've got a — you do? one of the big challenges is we've got a backlog _ you do? one of the big challenges is we've got a backlog in _ you do? one of the big challenges is we've got a backlog in processing i we've got a backlog in processing claims _ we've got a backlog in processing claims it— we've got a backlog in processing claims. if people... in fact whether it's claims. if people... in fact whether its foreign— claims. if people... in fact whether it's foreign national offenders or asylum—seekers, the last labour government was far more successful in deporting those people the on this government has been. the only thing _ this government has been. the only thing rishi _ this government has been. the only thing rishi sunak is offering now is a rwanda — thing rishi sunak is offering now is a rwanda gimmick. he knows it, that's— a rwanda gimmick. he knows it, that's what— a rwanda gimmick. he knows it, that's what he's called the election because _ that's what he's called the election because otherwise there would be a summer— because otherwise there would be a summer where because otherwise there would be a summerwhere labourand nigel summer where labour and nigel farage, — summerwhere labourand nigel farage, albeit for different reasons, it would be on the beaches of dover, _ reasons, it would be on the beaches of dover, saying look all the challenges. so we've heard from rishi _ challenges. so we've heard from rishi sunak had nothing to do with his debate — rishi sunak had nothing to do with his debate with keir starmer, he's looking _ his debate with keir starmer, he's looking over his shoulder at nigel farage _ looking over his shoulder at nigel

farage and looking notjust to control— farage and looking notjust to control conservative voters by conservative mps. you control conservative voters by conservative mps.— control conservative voters by conservative mps. ., ,, ., ., conservative mps. you think we got a clear enough — conservative mps. you think we got a clear enough idea _ conservative mps. you think we got a clear enough idea on _ conservative mps. you think we got a clear enough idea on what _ conservative mps. you think we got a clear enough idea on what exactly - clear enough idea on what exactly labour will do? that was the answer from rishi sunak, what will you do? he says he's got a plan, what is labour's clear plan on this? our first [an labour's clear plan on this? our first plan would _ labour's clear plan on this? our first plan would be to set up the secure _ first plan would be to set up the secure borders command which would brin- secure borders command which would bring together more enforcement officers. — bring together more enforcement officers, police, m15, and notjust .ive officers, police, m15, and notjust give them — officers, police, m15, and notjust give them the personnel to do the 'ob, give them the personnel to do the job, lrut— give them the personnel to do the job, but the powers to do the job, drawing _ job, but the powers to do the job, drawing on— job, but the powers to do the job, drawing on keir starmer's experience in prosecution, using the legal framework we used a bus terrorist cells _ framework we used a bus terrorist cells we — framework we used a bus terrorist cells. we should be doing that the bus criminals across the line. as shadow— bus criminals across the line. as shadow health secretary, i can help brin- shadow health secretary, i can help bring down net migration making sure we are _ bring down net migration making sure we are recruiting and training our own home—grown talent and reducing what i _ own home—grown talent and reducing what i think— own home—grown talent and reducing what i think is now an overreliance on workers — what i think is now an overreliance on workers from overseas to bring down _ on workers from overseas to bring down net — on workers from overseas to bring down net migration too. that's a

serious — down net migration too. that's a serious balanced approach, that's labour's — serious balanced approach, that's labour's approach, but we got from the conservatives is a record of failure — the conservatives is a record of failure and _ the conservatives is a record of failure and more gimmicks in the pipeline — failure and more gimmicks in the --ieline. ~ , ,, ., failure and more gimmicks in the --ieline. , ,, ., , pipeline. wes streeting, thanks very much. out pipeline. wes streeting, thanks very much- out of— pipeline. wes streeting, thanks very much. out of ten, _ pipeline. wes streeting, thanks very much. out of ten, how _ pipeline. wes streeting, thanks very much. out of ten, how would - pipeline. wes streeting, thanks very much. out of ten, how would you i pipeline. wes streeting, thanks very i much. out of ten, how would you rate the starmer's performance. you can't say ten. the starmer's performance. you can't sa ten. ' ' the starmer's performance. you can't say ten. i331. predictable, but we say ten. 9.9. predictable, but we will let you _ say ten. 9.9. predictable, but we will let you get — say ten. 9.9. predictable, but we will let you get back into the thick of the spin room. i'll try and find a conservative to talk to here. i think we will go tojohnny mercer. let's go through the crowd here. we are just stepping let's go through the crowd here. we arejust stepping in let's go through the crowd here. we are just stepping in over here now. as you can see, there's just so many people here — half an hour ago it wasn't packed, but now all the campaign surrogates have piled into this room, and this is all about them now promoting their leader is them now promoting their leader is the best performer today. jonathan ashworth, who i spoke to earlier,

let me cut through and see if i can speak tojohnny mercer. ok, he's still on with l bc but he's do with us next. we willjust wait patiently. looking at other conservatives we can speak to at the meantime. plenty ofjournalists waiting around as well, as you can see. we are supposed to be getting an exit poll as well, my colleague hopefully — it's all happening, this is live tv... immediately after the debate, here we go, debate poll here, who performed the best overall in the debate? so far, rishi sunak, 51%, keir starmer, 49% — that's a yougov poll, putting them very closely, but interestingly rishi sunak coming out ahead in that poll. i'll have to cut him now, it's our turn, isn't it? live on bbc news. it's our turn. turn, isn't it? live on bbc news. it's our turn-— turn, isn't it? live on bbc news.

it's our turn. we have to go, l bc. we've already — it's our turn. we have to go, l bc. we've already spoken _ it's our turn. we have to go, l bc. we've already spoken to _ it's our turn. we have to go, l bc. we've already spoken to a - it's our turn. we have to go, l bc. we've already spoken to a labour| we've already spoken to a labour surrogate. hello, it's a bit of a push and shove, listen to? welcome to bbc news. the yougov poll is actually quite good for your band, he came out slightly ahead. good. a bi ca- he came out slightly ahead. good. a bi aa- to he came out slightly ahead. good. a big gap to close _ he came out slightly ahead. good. a big gap to close in — he came out slightly ahead. good. a big gap to close in the _ he came out slightly ahead. good. a big gap to close in the opinion polls? big gap to close in the opinion olls? ., , ., big gap to close in the opinion olls? ., i. ., , big gap to close in the opinion olls? ., ., , ., , polls? that you government is really difficult, polls? that you government is really difficult. you — polls? that you government is really difficult, you can't _ polls? that you government is really difficult, you can't govern _ polls? that you government is really difficult, you can't govern in - difficult, you can't govern in platitudes, _ difficult, you can't govern in platitudes, and _ difficult, you can't govern in platitudes, and keir- difficult, you can't govern in| platitudes, and keir starmer answered _ platitudes, and keir starmer answered every— platitudes, and keir starmer answered every single - platitudes, and keir starmer. answered every single question platitudes, and keir starmer- answered every single question with platitudes — answered every single question with platitudes go— answered every single question with platitudes. go watch _ answered every single question with platitudes. go watch the _ answered every single question with platitudes. go watch the debate, i platitudes. go watch the debate, don't _ platitudes. go watch the debate, don't read — platitudes. go watch the debate, don't read up _ platitudes. go watch the debate, don't read up on _ platitudes. go watch the debate, don't read up on it, _ platitudes. go watch the debate, don't read up on it, and - platitudes. go watch the debate, don't read up on it, and ask- don't read up on it, and ask yourself, _ don't read up on it, and ask yourself, what's _ don't read up on it, and ask yourself, what's he - don't read up on it, and ask yourself, what's he actuallyj don't read up on it, and ask- yourself, what's he actually said? what's _ yourself, what's he actually said? what's he — yourself, what's he actually said? what's he committed _ yourself, what's he actually said? what's he committed to? - yourself, what's he actually said? what's he committed to? every. yourself, what's he actually said? i what's he committed to? every single answer. _ what's he committed to? every single answer. he's— what's he committed to? every single answer, he's looking _ what's he committed to? every single answer, he's looking back— what's he committed to? every single answer, he's looking back are - what's he committed to? every single answer, he's looking back are having. answer, he's looking back are having a-o answer, he's looking back are having ago about— answer, he's looking back are having ago about li2— answer, he's looking back are having ago about liz truss. _ answer, he's looking back are having ago about liz truss. we _ answer, he's looking back are having ago about liz truss. we are - answer, he's looking back are having ago about liz truss. we are past i ago about liz truss. we are past that, _ ago about liz truss. we are past that, we — ago about liz truss. we are past that, we are _ ago about liz truss. we are past that, we are about— ago about liz truss. we are past that, we are about the _ ago about liz truss. we are past that, we are about the future. i ago about liz truss. we are past . that, we are about the future. it's, what _ that, we are about the future. it's, what would — that, we are about the future. it's, what would you _ that, we are about the future. it's, what would you do _ that, we are about the future. it's, what would you do with _ that, we are about the future. it's, what would you do with a - that, we are about the future. it's, what would you do with a very- what would you do with a very difficult — what would you do with a very difficult set _ what would you do with a very difficult set of _ what would you do with a veryj difficult set of circumstances? you've — difficult set of circumstances? you've got _ difficult set of circumstances? you've got a _ difficult set of circumstances? you've got a clear— difficult set of circumstances? you've got a clear choice, i difficult set of circumstances? you've got a clear choice, on. difficult set of circumstances? i you've got a clear choice, on the one hand. — you've got a clear choice, on the one hand. a _ you've got a clear choice, on the one hand, a prime _ you've got a clear choice, on the one hand, a prime minister- you've got a clear choice, on the - one hand, a prime minister committed to reducing _ one hand, a prime minister committed to reducing migration _ one hand, a prime minister committed to reducing migration and _ one hand, a prime minister committed to reducing migration and tax. - one hand, a prime minister committed to reducing migration and tax. keir- to reducing migration and tax. keir starmer, _ to reducing migration and tax. keir starmer, ten — to reducing migration and tax. keir starmer, ten times _ to reducing migration and tax. keir starmer, ten times he _ to reducing migration and tax. keir starmer, ten times he wouldn't- to reducing migration and tax. keir. starmer, ten times he wouldn't deny raising _ starmer, ten times he wouldn't deny

raising taxes — starmer, ten times he wouldn't deny raising taxes if— starmer, ten times he wouldn't deny raising taxes. if you _ starmer, ten times he wouldn't deny raising taxes. if you think— starmer, ten times he wouldn't deny raising taxes. if you think it'll- starmer, ten times he wouldn't deny raising taxes. if you think it'll be i raising taxes. if you think it'll be a labour— raising taxes. if you think it'll be a labour government— raising taxes. if you think it'll be a labour government that - raising taxes. if you think it'll be a labour government that needs savingm — a labour government that needs savin: . .. �* a labour government that needs savinu... �* a labour government that needs savinu...�* ' , .,, saving... but the past 14 years in government. _ saving... but the past 14 years in government, rishi _ saving... but the past 14 years in government, rishi sunak, - saving... but the past 14 years in government, rishi sunak, your. saving... but the past 14 years in i government, rishi sunak, your man was talking about the future, but it's a 14 year record their that the party also asked to answer on. things have gone well, things haven't— things have gone well, things haven't gone _ things have gone well, things haven't gone well. _ things have gone well, things haven't gone well. you - things have gone well, things haven't gone well. you can i things have gone well, things. haven't gone well. you can look things have gone well, things- haven't gone well. you can look at things— haven't gone well. you can look at things like — haven't gone well. you can look at things like schools _ haven't gone well. you can look at things like schools in _ haven't gone well. you can look at things like schools in my- things like schools in my constituency, _ things like schools in my constituency, 45% - things like schools in my constituency, 45% of i things like schools in my- constituency, 45% of schools went things like schools in my— constituency, 45% of schools went to school _ constituency, 45% of schools went to school in _ constituency, 45% of schools went to school in 2010 — constituency, 45% of schools went to school in 2010. and _ constituency, 45% of schools went to school in 2010. and things _ constituency, 45% of schools went to school in 2010. and things haven't i school in 2010. and things haven't gone _ school in 2010. and things haven't gone well, — school in 2010. and things haven't gone well, we've _ school in 2010. and things haven't gone well, we've had _ school in 2010. and things haven't gone well, we've had massive i gone well, we've had massive challenges _ gone well, we've had massive challenges. covid, _ gone well, we've had massive challenges. covid, £400- gone well, we've had massive. challenges. covid, £400 billion wiped— challenges. covid, £400 billion wiped away~ _ challenges. covid, £400 billion wiped away. it's _ challenges. covid, £400 billion wiped away. it's a _ challenges. covid, £400 billion wiped away. it's a fraud - challenges. covid, £400 billion wiped away. it's a fraud on i challenges. covid, £400 billion wiped away. it's a fraud on thei wiped away. it's a fraud on the british— wiped away. it's a fraud on the british people _ wiped away. it's a fraud on the british people to _ wiped away. it's a fraud on the british people to say— wiped away. it's a fraud on the british people to say to - wiped away. it's a fraud on the british people to say to forget| british people to say to forget about— british people to say to forget about that, _ british people to say to forget about that, your— british people to say to forget about that, your cost - british people to say to forget about that, your cost of- british people to say to forget about that, your cost of living | british people to say to forget i about that, your cost of living will io about that, your cost of living will go down — about that, your cost of living will go down because _ about that, your cost of living will go down because it _ about that, your cost of living will go down because it won't. - about that, your cost of living will go down because it won't. the i go down because it won't. the government— go down because it won't. the government hasn't— go down because it won't. the government hasn't got - go down because it won't. the i government hasn't got everything right, _ government hasn't got everything right, and — government hasn't got everything right, and no— government hasn't got everything right, and no government - government hasn't got everything right, and no government could, i government hasn't got everything i right, and no government could, but you've _ right, and no government could, but you've got _ right, and no government could, but you've got a — right, and no government could, but you've got a choice _ right, and no government could, but you've got a choice in _ right, and no government could, but you've got a choice in this _ you've got a choice in this election. _ you've got a choice in this election, really— you've got a choice in this election, really clearly, i you've got a choice in this - election, really clearly, between someone — election, really clearly, between someone who— election, really clearly, between someone who actually— election, really clearly, between someone who actually believes. election, really clearly, betweenl someone who actually believes in something — someone who actually believes in something - _ someone who actually believes in something — this— someone who actually believes in something — this is— someone who actually believes in something — this is why— someone who actually believes in something — this is why keir- someone who actually believes in i something — this is why keir starmer flip-flops. _ something — this is why keir starmer flip-flops. if— something — this is why keir starmer flip-flops. if you _ something — this is why keir starmer flip—flops, if you don't _ something — this is why keir starmer flip—flops, if you don't believe - something — this is why keir starmer flip—flops, if you don't believe in- flip—flops, if you don't believe in anything. — flip—flops, if you don't believe in anything. you've _ flip—flops, if you don't believe in anything, you've got _ flip—flops, if you don't believe in anything, you've got no - flip—flops, if you don't believe in. anything, you've got no grounding principles, — anything, you've got no grounding principles. you _ anything, you've got no grounding principles, you saw— anything, you've got no grounding principles, you saw him _ anything, you've got no grounding principles, you saw him go - anything, you've got no grounding principles, you saw him go back. anything, you've got no grounding| principles, you saw him go back to his policies—

principles, you saw him go back to his policies tonight, _ principles, you saw him go back to his policies tonight, he _ his policies tonight, he now believes— his policies tonight, he now believes and _ his policies tonight, he now believes and off _ his policies tonight, he now believes and off shoring i his policies tonight, he now- believes and off shoring migrants who come — believes and off shoring migrants who come here _ believes and off shoring migrants who come here illegally. - believes and off shoring migrants who come here illegally. this i believes and off shoring migrants who come here illegally. this is l believes and off shoring migrants . who come here illegally. this is not serious _ who come here illegally. this is not serious leadership, _ who come here illegally. this is not serious leadership, and _ who come here illegally. this is not serious leadership, and it's - serious leadership, and it's important _ serious leadership, and it's important-— serious leadership, and it's imortant. . ., ., ., important. and labour would also say the aren't important. and labour would also say they aren't complete _ important. and labour would also say they aren't complete policies - important. and labour would also say they aren't complete policies as i they aren't complete policies as well when it comes to the fact that no planes have taken off to rwanda yet. no planes have taken off to rwanda et. ., 4' ., , no planes have taken off to rwanda et. ., ,, ., �* , yet. you know why? because labour voted 139 times _ yet. you know why? because labour voted 139 times against _ yet. you know why? because labour voted 139 times against controlling l voted 139 times against controlling migration, — voted 139 times against controlling migration, so— voted 139 times against controlling migration, so that's _ voted 139 times against controlling migration, so that's honesty - voted 139 times against controlling migration, so that's honesty for i migration, so that's honesty for you _ migration, so that's honesty for ou. , ., y migration, so that's honesty for ou. , ., , ~ . migration, so that's honesty for you. johnny mercer, thank you very much. we you. johnny mercer, thank you very much- we will— you. johnny mercer, thank you very much. we will hand _ you. johnny mercer, thank you very much. we will hand it _ you. johnny mercer, thank you very much. we will hand it back - you. johnny mercer, thank you very much. we will hand it back to i you. johnny mercer, thank you very much. we will hand it back to our. much. we will hand it back to our colleagues in the bbc news night and we will continue live in the spin room as you can see, it's very busy, there will be much more postdebate analysis but for the moment, thinks. rotini vegan nothing, thanks very much. we'll be to newsnight in a moment —— rajini vaidyanathan. let's look at the debate with chris mason. the big question for rishi sunak. the big question for rishi sunak. the polls aren't budging. could this be the moment for a game changer?

and here's the guy who wants his job. is tonight the night you seal the deal? pleasantries, smiles, and you can bet for both of them, a bag of nerves. set up by paula from huddersfield in the studio audience. mr; set up by paula from huddersfield in the studio audience.— the studio audience. my savings are one and the studio audience. my savings are gone and i'm _ the studio audience. my savings are gone and i'm worried _ the studio audience. my savings are gone and i'm worried about - the studio audience. my savings are gone and i'm worried about my i gone and i'm worried about my future. i don't think you understand how this is for people like me. what can you do about that? both men expressed sympathy and then the argument began. everyone is onlyjust starting to feel the benefits but inflation is back to normal and wages are growing, tax are being cut. keir starmer would put all that progress at risk. he would put up everyone's taxes by £2,000.

paula, i don't know how you feel when you hear a prime minister say, having heard what you are going through, the plan is working, it's right. —— it's all all right. i meet so many people who are struggling with their bills and the prime minister keeps saying — he lives in a different world. listen to this exchange on the nhs waiting list where the audience laughed at the prime minister. we are making progress and the waiting list sucked me down but what keir starmer didn't mention, which you did. this is a guy who said he's good at maths. , ., ., . ., this is a guy who said he's good at maths. , . ., . ., ., 7.2 million when you said you'd get them down, now 7.5 million. they are coming down from where they were when they were higher. laughter and both offered direct answers to this question. if you had loved ones on a long waiting list for surgery, if you thought it was the only way forward to use private health care,

rishi sunak, would you? yes. no. what about how much tax you might have to pay after the election? please raise your. hand if i am wrong. you as prime minister. will not raise income tax. you will not raise national- insurance in the next parliament. and, other than labour on private i schools, you will not raise vat. i thank you for that . instructive moment. so how will either of them pay for things? we will raise specific taxes, and we have been clear what they are. we have already dealt with the tax break on private schools, we want to end non—dom status completely. i think the super—rich should be

paying their tax. we have scrapped the non—dom regime. promises, finger working on pensions. we raise the personal allowance for pensioners and ensure state pension is never subject to tax. that's what you will get under a future conservative government. keir starmer hasn't matched that pledge, which means, for the first time in our country's history, if labour are elected, pensioners will pay tax. i do not think why that is right, and you shall explain what you think pensioners will be paying a retirement... the big problem with liz truss is that she made unfunded tax cuts. the prime minister is doing the same thing. next, stephen from warrington. politicians have broken so many promises on immigration. - why should i trust either of you? we will need bold action to bring it down, legal immigration, with a new cap to guarantee it will come down every year, or the boats, which you mentioned. we got the numbers down last

year by a third, and now we have a deterrent ready to go. migrants have been detained, the flights will go in july, but only if i am your prime minister _ we need to smash the gangs running this vile trade, making huge amounts of money and putting some of the most vulnerable people in boats across the channel. they are making a fortune. and the tension was rising. please, gentlemen, can we lower our voices? i there was a dividing line on this. if your rwanda plan i is blocked by the courts, would you remove the uk i from the european convention on human rights? - is that part of your plan? i believe all our plans are compliant with our international obligations, but if i am forced to choose between securing our borders and the security of our country or a foreign court, i choose our country security. if i am prime minister, we will not pull out of international

agreements and international law, which is respected the world over. i want the uk to be respected on the global stage. not a pariah. this debate is not yet done. when it is, the spin will begin to attempt to answer the big question — who won it? chris mason, bbc news, in salford. we wa nt we want you to shape how we cover this general election campaign, so if you have a question for a politician or perhaps an issue that you're concerned about, then you can get in touch as part of your voice, your vote by going to the bbc news website on your phone, tablet or laptop. you can also keep up—to—date with what's happening throughout the evening and also bbc verify at are fact checking this claims and counterclaims — scan the qr code to

see what's going on there. there's a lot of fact checking going on with those claims throughout the debate, but there's also live updates from what's happening. some of the highlights, if you want to call them that, are that the two leaders have clashed over the nhs, the cost of living, education, and immigration in that first head—to—head tv debate of the election. now do stay with bbc news to digest what happened with that debate, victoria derbyshire is coming up next with all the details, here's newsnight. . rishi sunak and keir starmer have just come off air in the first head—to—head leaders debate. who won and what does it mean for the election? we will talk live to a cabinet minister and member of the shadow cabinet. with us throughout the programme tonight, piers morgan

and mick lynch of the rmt union. good evening, welcome to newsnight. scrappy, petulant, heated, revealing — that's what some of you thought of tonight's head to head between rishi sunak and keir starmer. what are these two men are going to offer us? i what are these two men are going to offer us? . ., what are these two men are going to offer us? . . ., ,., ., , offer us? i change the labour party, ut it back offer us? i change the labour party, put it back in _ offer us? i change the labour party, put it back in the _ offer us? i change the labour party, put it back in the service _ offer us? i change the labour party, put it back in the service of- put it back in the service of working _ put it back in the service of working people.— put it back in the service of working people. put it back in the service of workin: --eole. ,, . ., working people. keir starmer would ut that working people. keir starmer would put that progress — working people. keir starmer would put that progress at _ working people. keir starmer would put that progress at risk, _ working people. keir starmer would put that progress at risk, put i working people. keir starmer would put that progress at risk, put up i put that progress at risk, put up everyone's— put that progress at risk, put up everyone's taxes— put that progress at risk, put up everyone's taxes by— put that progress at risk, put up everyone's taxes by £2000. i put that progress at risk, put up everyone's taxes by £2000. hel put that progress at risk, put up i everyone's taxes by £2000. he is put that progress at risk, put up everyone's taxes by £2000. he is the british expert — everyone's taxes by £2000. he is the british expert on _ everyone's taxes by £2000. he is the british expert on tax _ everyone's taxes by £2000. he is the british expert on tax rises. _ everyone's taxes by £2000. he is the british expert on tax rises. they i british expert on tax rises. they are at— british expert on tax rises. they are at the — british expert on tax rises. they are at the highest level for 70 years — are at the highest level for 70 ears. ., ., , ,., are at the highest level for 70 ears. ., ., , ., , years. labour will raise your taxes. it is in their— years. labour will raise your taxes. it is in their dna. _

years. labour will raise your taxes. it is in their dna. your— years. labour will raise your taxes. it is in their dna. your work, - years. labour will raise your taxes. it is in their dna. your work, your| it is in their dna. your work, your car, _ it is in their dna. your work, your can your— it is in their dna. your work, your car. your pension _ it is in their dna. your work, your car, your pension. m11— it is in their dna. your work, your car, your pension.— it is in their dna. your work, your car, your pension. my wife works in the nhs in — car, your pension. my wife works in the nhs in one _ car, your pension. my wife works in the nhs in one of— car, your pension. my wife works in the nhs in one of the _ car, your pension. my wife works in the nhs in one of the big _ car, your pension. my wife works in the nhs in one of the big london i the nhs in one of the big london hospitals — the nhs in one of the big london hospitals. my mum and sister were nurses, _ hospitals. my mum and sister were nurses, the — hospitals. my mum and sister were nurses, the dna runs through my dna. the waiting _ nurses, the dna runs through my dna. the waiting lists are coming down. what _ the waiting lists are coming down. what keir— the waiting lists are coming down. what keir starmer— the waiting lists are coming down. what keir starmer did— the waiting lists are coming down. what keir starmer did not- the waiting lists are coming down. l what keir starmer did not mention the waiting lists are coming down. i what keir starmer did not mention to you _ what keir starmer did not mention to ou. .. ., ., ., you... there are now 7.5 million, he sa s the you... there are now 7.5 million, he says they are _ you... there are now 7.5 million, he says they are coming _ you... there are now 7.5 million, he says they are coming down? - you... there are now 7.5 million, he says they are coming down? they i you... there are now 7.5 million, he l says they are coming down? they are now coming — says they are coming down? they are now coming down. _ says they are coming down? they are now coming down. 7.2 _ says they are coming down? they are now coming down. 7.2 when - says they are coming down? they are now coming down. 7.2 when you - says they are coming down? they are now coming down. 7.2 when you said | now coming down. 7.2 when you said the would now coming down. 7.2 when you said they would get _ now coming down. 7.2 when you said they would get them _ now coming down. 7.2 when you said they would get them down, - now coming down. 7.2 when you said they would get them down, they are | they would get them down, they are now they would get them down, they are how 75— they would get them down, they are now 7.5 million. i would like to explain — now 7.5 million. i would like to explain how they are coming down. they are _ explain how they are coming down. they are coming down from where they were when _ they are coming down from where they were when they — they are coming down from where they were when they were _ they are coming down from where they were when they were higher. _ they are coming down from where they were when they were higher. they - they are coming down from where they were when they were higher. they are i were when they were higher. they are down _ nick is live in salford in the spin room. we'll be with him in a moment. first, let's get reaction from our political panel tonight — broadcaster and journalist piers morgan and secretary general of the rmt mick lynch. welcome to you, gentlemen. who won? i think rishi sunak won. she is 20 points bind in the polls, his personal approval ratings are in the

tank, no one is giving him a chance, the first poll i have seen since the debate has it measured at 51—49%. he did not do a knockout punch, he did the jab. hejabbed repeatedly with the jab. hejabbed repeatedly with the same very effective message which was £2000. inexplicably, keir starmer, who should have predicted this was coming, just did not answer the question. he this was coming, 'ust did not answer the question.— the question. he did not duck down the question. he did not duck down the £2000- — the question. he did not duck down the £2000. cute _ the question. he did not duck down the £2000. cute do _ the question. he did not duck down the £2000. cute do not _ the question. he did not duck down the £2000. cute do not deny - the question. he did not duck down the £2000. cute do not deny it, . the question. he did not duck down | the £2000. cute do not deny it, did not clarify. — the £2000. cute do not deny it, did not clarify. he _ the £2000. cute do not deny it, did not clarify, he did _ the £2000. cute do not deny it, did not clarify, he did not _ the £2000. cute do not deny it, did not clarify, he did not do _ the £2000. cute do not deny it, did not clarify, he did not do anything l not clarify, he did not do anything until about half way through the debate. by then, i think the damage was done. rishi sunak recognise that and kept smacking him with 2000. i do not think much of the other stuff will resonate or kick through by tomorrow or the next day, but the 2000 may well do. people are looking at labour and thinking they will probably win, be the next government, but what do you stand for, and how are you going to pay for, and how are you going to pay for all these policies you are talking about, given that you have rolled out 75% of the taxation

revenue streams? i think rishi sunak was quite effective with that and did better than probably people assumed he would do. i did better than probably people assumed he would do.- did better than probably people assumed he would do. i think rishi sunak did quite _ assumed he would do. i think rishi sunak did quite well, _ assumed he would do. i think rishi sunak did quite well, but _ assumed he would do. i think rishi sunak did quite well, but i - assumed he would do. i think rishi sunak did quite well, but i do - assumed he would do. i think rishi sunak did quite well, but i do not l sunak did quite well, but i do not think— sunak did quite well, but i do not think you — sunak did quite well, but i do not think you won. i think it was quite bland. _ think you won. i think it was quite bland, people would have been quite hored~ _ bland, people would have been quite hored~ keir— bland, people would have been quite bored. keir starmer should have dealt _ bored. keir starmer should have dealt with— bored. keir starmer should have dealt with the £2000. that is a side effect _ dealt with the £2000. that is a side effect of— dealt with the £2000. that is a side effect of not having a bowled economic policy and not having a message — economic policy and not having a message about tax, which rachel reeves _ message about tax, which rachel reeves has alluded to. if you want to change — reeves has alluded to. if you want to change the country, you have to do something about tax and something about expenditure. he is saddled with this — about expenditure. he is saddled with this nonresponse, but he could have deatt— with this nonresponse, but he could have dealt with it in the first ten seconds — have dealt with it in the first ten seconds. you could have just said, that is— seconds. you could have just said, that is not— seconds. you could have just said, that is not true, i will not do it. you _ that is not true, i will not do it. you took— that is not true, i will not do it. you took a _ that is not true, i will not do it. you took a long time to get there. i do not _ you took a long time to get there. i do not think— you took a long time to get there. i do not think she rebutted it at all fully _ do not think she rebutted it at all fully you — do not think she rebutted it at all fully. you should have done that and .ot fully. you should have done that and got on _ fully. you should have done that and got on with— fully. you should have done that and got on with the debate.— got on with the debate. labour certainly have _ got on with the debate. labour certainly have sense. - got on with the debate. labour certainly have sense. there - got on with the debate. labour| certainly have sense. there will got on with the debate. labour - certainly have sense. there will be millions of people engaging with this election campaign for the first time tonight, having watched that. what will they have learned about

those two men? i what will they have learned about those two men?— what will they have learned about those two men? i quite en'oyed it. mick was chuntering _ those two men? i quite en'oyed it. mick was chuntering away _ those two men? i quite enjoyed it. mick was chuntering away while i those two men? i quite enjoyed it. | mick was chuntering away while we were watching it. you are bonding over our bounty bars. i thought it was quite combative. i thought they were both quite fired up, i thought rishi sunak more than keir starmer. i got the feeling that the polls are disastrous for rishi sunak, the latest polls today catastrophic if that comes in. he has nothing to lose. i think you came out punching. they are in a terrible position. iii years, we have got to basically a political abyss, so he has nothing to lose. however, keir starmer, everyone assumes he will win by this massive majority now, that brings its own pressure. i do not think you performed very well tonight because i was looking at him thinking, what is your big plan? rishi sunak was clever to keep pushing him, you don't have a plan, i have a plan, you don't have a plan. that message and the 2000 repeatedly for most of the debate, i took that away is a kind of message in my head, and i

think voters will as well. [30 kind of message in my head, and i think voters will as well.— think voters will as well. do you atree? i think voters will as well. do you agree? i think _ think voters will as well. do you agree? i think labour _ think voters will as well. do you agree? i think labour voters - think voters will as well. do you | agree? i think labour voters will still vote for— agree? i think labour voters will still vote for them _ agree? i think labour voters will still vote for them and _ agree? i think labour voters will still vote for them and the - agree? i think labour voters will. still vote for them and the people that will_ still vote for them and the people that will change well change. but he needs— that will change well change. but he needs to _ that will change well change. but he needs to come to the country with a howled _ needs to come to the country with a bowled message. why needs to come to the country with a bowled message.— needs to come to the country with a bowled message. why when there are 20 percentage — bowled message. why when there are 20 percentage points _ bowled message. why when there are 20 percentage points ahead? - bowled message. why when there are 20 percentage points ahead? mature| 20 percentage points ahead? mature in tower 20 percentage points ahead? mature in power for — 20 percentage points ahead? mature in powerfor six _ 20 percentage points ahead? mature in power for six months, _ 20 percentage points ahead? mature in power for six months, people - 20 percentage points ahead? mature in power for six months, people will| in power for six months, people will be looking _ in power for six months, people will be looking for initiatives and change _ be looking for initiatives and change. if you do not deliver change because _ change. if you do not deliver change because you are tied to a tory fiscal— because you are tied to a tory fiscal policy, then you have got a prohtent — fiscal policy, then you have got a prohtent i— fiscal policy, then you have got a problem. i think they needed the next few— problem. i think they needed the next few weeks to show there will actually _ next few weeks to show there will actually be change as a result of labour— actually be change as a result of labour winning the election. labour will have a problem _ labour winning the election. labour will have a problem whatever - will have a problem whatever happens. there is no money. we all know there is no money. this is not like 1997 when tony blair came sweeping and with a massive landslide win and had a very strong economy and able to hit the ground running. keir starmer will not be able to do that. there is no money. there is quite a lot of money in this country. there is quite a lot of money in this country-— there is quite a lot of money in this country. there is the way you want to raise _

this country. there is the way you want to raise money. _ this country. there is the way you want to raise money. there - this country. there is the way you want to raise money. there is - this country. there is the way you i want to raise money. there is plenty of money in — want to raise money. there is plenty of money in the _ want to raise money. there is plenty of money in the country, it _ want to raise money. there is plenty of money in the country, it is - want to raise money. there is plenty of money in the country, it isjust . of money in the country, it isjust a matter— of money in the country, it isjust a matter whether you want to get some of— a matter whether you want to get some of it— a matter whether you want to get some of it. ., ., ., ., ,, ., some of it. you want to take it from the rich and — some of it. you want to take it from the rich and give _ some of it. you want to take it from the rich and give it _ some of it. you want to take it from the rich and give it to _ some of it. you want to take it from the rich and give it to the _ some of it. you want to take it from the rich and give it to the pier. - some of it. you want to take it from the rich and give it to the pier. i - the rich and give it to the pier. i get that. but the reality is keir starmer will not see anything like that before the election. he does not want to scare the animals and the children, he was to basically get over the line, get power, and i understand that and respect it. as tony blair always said, you can have all the fancy pants in the world, if you do not get power, it is pointless. so keir starmer wants and needs to win, but at the moment i am looking at him thinking, i do not see any great ideology to drag this country out of the doldrums. i am not sure voters will think that either. he looked a little bit shifty and evasive to me. i do either. he looked a little bit shifty and evasive to me. i do not think he is _ shifty and evasive to me. i do not think he is shifty _ shifty and evasive to me. i do not think he is shifty and _ shifty and evasive to me. i do not think he is shifty and evasive. - shifty and evasive to me. i do not think he is shifty and evasive. i i think he is shifty and evasive. i think— think he is shifty and evasive. i think he — think he is shifty and evasive. i think he is— think he is shifty and evasive. i think he is careful. that may win him the — think he is careful. that may win him the election, but it may not endear— him the election, but it may not endear him _ him the election, but it may not endear him to the country as we go forward _ endear him to the country as we go forward. there have been some very vanitta _ forward. there have been some very vanilla politicians in the past to have _ vanilla politicians in the past to have been successful. clement attlee wasn't _ have been successful. clement attlee wasn't a _ have been successful. clement attlee wasn't a great speaker, he wasn't a

radical, _ wasn't a great speaker, he wasn't a radical, hut— wasn't a great speaker, he wasn't a radical, but he was bowled, he was a moderate, _ radical, but he was bowled, he was a moderate, bold person. you can win an election — moderate, bold person. you can win an election like that. you see, you can trust— an election like that. you see, you can trust me. _ an election like that. you see, you can trust me, but i have got to do some _ can trust me, but i have got to do some of— can trust me, but i have got to do some of these things to change the country— some of these things to change the country around. if we want to rebuild — country around. if we want to rebuild our infrastructure and care service, _ rebuild our infrastructure and care service, nhs, everyone knows it costs— service, nhs, everyone knows it costs money. people are prepared to pay for _ costs money. people are prepared to pay for it _ costs money. people are prepared to pay for it if— costs money. people are prepared to pay for it if you deliver a better system~ — pay for it if you deliver a better system i— pay for it if you deliver a better system. i think they should have gone _ system. i think they should have gone with— system. i think they should have gone with that message. unfortunately they haven't, so they are going _ unfortunately they haven't, so they are going to take government without are going to take government without a particularly strong message about anything _ a particularly strong message about anything. ifi a particularly strong message about an hint. ., a particularly strong message about an hint. .y ., ., a particularly strong message about an hint. ., ., ., anything. ifi may, we have got to to to anything. ifi may, we have got to go to salford _ anything. ifi may, we have got to go to salford now _ anything. ifi may, we have got to go to salford now to _ anything. ifi may, we have got to go to salford now to talk- anything. ifi may, we have got to go to salford now to talk to - anything. ifi may, we have got to go to salford now to talk to nick, | go to salford now to talk to nick, who is in the spin room. we are about to talk live to a cabinet minister and shadow cabinet minister on camera, but what are both can r party seem to camera? what on camera, but what are both can r party seem to camera?— party seem to camera? what piers mortan party seem to camera? what piers morgan were _ party seem to camera? what piers morgan were saying _ party seem to camera? what piers morgan were saying about - party seem to camera? what piers morgan were saying about how - party seem to camera? what piers i morgan were saying about how rishi sunak will be pleased by that snap poll that put him on 51% and keir starmer on 49%, technically that would be a dead heat, but a reading

analyst says if you're 20 points bind, you will be pretty pleased with that. a very interesting scene played out here as this debate came to an end, it was pretty quiet one minute before the debate came to an end, members of the cabinet, members of the shadow cabinet fanned into this room. what are the newspaper journalist do? i am a former newspaperjournalist, you can tell a lot about what they do, they surrounded two members of the shadow cabinet, john ashworth and patton fatten, key people in the election campaign, they surrounded them, they wanted to know what they were up to. they did not surround the conservative cabinet. this was a pretty scrappy debate, this wasn't bill clinton making an emotional connection with voters, it wasn't ronald reagan doing morning in america, it was scrappy. what did rishi sunak need to do? he needed to go on the offensive. what did keir starmer need to do? you needed to not drop that fabled vast. the conservatives are absolutely delighted that they got that £2000

labour attack tries to figure out there. it is in the headlines and all the papers. it took keir starmer some time to say that was based on treasury findings, based on what he would see distorted figures provided by the government, but it took some time to see it is nonsense. so the tories are very happy with that. labour believe that what you sup with keir starmer was a symbol of what they believe is the stability you would get with labour compared with what they regard as the division and chaos of the conservatives.— division and chaos of the conservatives. ., ,, , ., . , conservatives. thank you. we will be back with you — conservatives. thank you. we will be back with you a _ conservatives. thank you. we will be back with you a little _ conservatives. thank you. we will be back with you a little later. _ conservatives. thank you. we will be back with you a little later. on - back with you a little later. on friday, by the way, the bbc will host the first of its prime—time election tv debates on bbc one from 7:30pm until 9pm. that involves representatives from seven political parties and that will be hosted by michelle hussain. we will talk to the conservatives and labour live any moment, we arejust the conservatives and labour live any moment, we are just sorting out the communication which is always an issue. piers morgan and mick lynch

have given their assessment thus far. the point about the £2000 is that the assumptions on which the calculations are based have been made by tory special advisers, by political appointees. they are not impartial or independent, which is what rishi sunak was claiming on the programme. i do what rishi sunak was claiming on the ttroramme. ., ., ~ programme. i do not think it matters- _ programme. i do not think it matters. the _ programme. i do not think it matters. the truth _ programme. i do not think it matters. the truth does - programme. i do not think it - matters. the truth does not matter? the truth matters _ matters. the truth does not matter? the truth matters and _ matters. the truth does not matter? the truth matters and that _ matters. the truth does not matter? the truth matters and that will- matters. the truth does not matter? the truth matters and that will be i the truth matters and that will be examined and come out, but the bottom line is the people that watch that debate, the first debate between the two of them, will have come away with that in their head, 2000, 2000, 2000. they will ask themselves, why did keir starmer not immediately rebut it? what is he hiding? it plays into this idea that the tories keep saying about labour, they are hiding the fact that they want to ramp up taxation. taste they are hiding the fact that they want to ramp up taxation. we have sorted the commerce, _ want to ramp up taxation. we have sorted the commerce, so - want to ramp up taxation. we have sorted the commerce, so let's - want to ramp up taxation. we have sorted the commerce, so let's talk| sorted the commerce, so let's talk to claire coutinho and liz kendall, the shadow work and pensions secretary. thank you very much for talking to newsnight and our

audience. let's start with you, liz kendall, why did it take so long for keir starmer to rebut that figure of £2000? i keir starmer to rebut that figure of £2000? “ keir starmer to rebut that figure of £2000? 4' ., , keir starmer to rebut that figure of £2000? ~ .,, . . ., keir starmer to rebut that figure of £2000? ~ . . ., . ., £2000? i think he was crystal clear that we are — £2000? i think he was crystal clear that we are not _ £2000? i think he was crystal clear that we are not going _ £2000? i think he was crystal clear that we are not going to _ £2000? i think he was crystal clear that we are not going to be - £2000? i think he was crystal clear that we are not going to be raisingl that we are not going to be raising taxes on working people, but that we will be closing tax loopholes and the non—dom tax status to fund the extra appointments we need in the nhs, to cut waiting times. we will be getting rid of the tax breaks enjoyed by private schools to fund more teachers and other classes, so all children have the chance to where we will raise taxes, what we will spend that money on. i think it isjust desperate stuff will spend that money on. i think it is just desperate stuff from the tories. it is not true, it is made up, and i think the public will see through that. up, and i think the public will see through that-— up, and i think the public will see throuth that. . ., ., through that. claire coutinho, where did ou tet through that. claire coutinho, where did you get this _ through that. claire coutinho, where did you get this to _ through that. claire coutinho, where did you get this to thousand - through that. claire coutinho, where did you get this to thousand it - through that. claire coutinho, where did you get this to thousand it is - did you get this to thousand it is not an impartial, independent figure, is it? it is your own tory special advisers who have added with

not at all. this is a figure which has come up independent, impartial civil servants. they have added u- impartial civil servants. they have added up the _ impartial civil servants. they have added up the costs _ impartial civil servants. they have added up the costs of— impartial civil servants. they have added up the costs of the - impartial civil servants. they have added up the costs of the policies| added up the costs of the policies that the _ added up the costs of the policies that the labour party have said that they want _ that the labour party have said that they want to put in place in the next _ they want to put in place in the next parliament. the figure that that comes out with as an of taxes for working — that comes out with as an of taxes for working families. the reason that i_ for working families. the reason that i think— for working families. the reason that i think keir starmer couldn't simply— that i think keir starmer couldn't simply say, no, iam not that i think keir starmer couldn't simply say, no, i am not doing that for many, _ simply say, no, i am not doing that for many, many times he was challenged on this question is because — challenged on this question is because it is true.— challenged on this question is because it is true. victoria, you tut because it is true. victoria, you put rubbish _ because it is true. victoria, you put rubbish and, _ because it is true. victoria, you put rubbish and, you _ because it is true. victoria, you put rubbish and, you get - because it is true. victoria, you | put rubbish and, you get rubbish out. that is what this is. that put rubbish and, you get rubbish out. that is what this is.- out. that is what this is. that is independent — out. that is what this is. that is independent civil _ out. that is what this is. that is independent civil servants - out. that is what this is. that is independent civil servants in i out. that is what this is. that is | independent civil servants in the treasury — independent civil servants in the treasury |— independent civil servants in the treasu . . ., ., independent civil servants in the treasu . . ., , treasury. i am going to pull you up on that, treasury. i am going to pull you up on that. claire _ treasury. i am going to pull you up on that, claire coutinho. _ treasury. i am going to pull you up on that, claire coutinho. they - treasury. i am going to pull you up on that, claire coutinho. they are l on that, claire coutinho. they are not independent, they are not impartial. the assumptions on which the calculations are based have been made by tory special advisers. they are political appointees. hang on. that is misleading to voters and

therefore very disrespectful. flan i therefore very disrespectful. can i 'ust sa , therefore very disrespectful. can i just say. those — therefore very disrespectful. can i just say, those numbers - therefore very disrespectful. can i just say, those numbers are - therefore very disrespectful. can i just say, those numbers are created by the _ just say, those numbers are created by the treasury. there is very strict — by the treasury. there is very strict rules— by the treasury. there is very strict rules on how you can do opposition— strict rules on how you can do opposition costing. if you think that the — opposition costing. if you think that the treasury would just add up anything _ that the treasury would just add up anything that tory special advisers .ave anything that tory special advisers gave them, no matter what it was, had come — gave them, no matter what it was, had come out with a vigour, which is backed _ had come out with a vigour, which is backed by— had come out with a vigour, which is backed by the treasury, you are surely _ backed by the treasury, you are surely mistaken. let backed by the treasury, you are surely mistaken.— backed by the treasury, you are surely mistaken. let me go back to liz kendall- — surely mistaken. let me go back to liz kendall. it — surely mistaken. let me go back to liz kendall. it is _ surely mistaken. let me go back to liz kendall. it is an _ surely mistaken. let me go back to liz kendall. it is an assessment - liz kendall. it is an assessment created by _ liz kendall. it is an assessment created by the _ liz kendall. it is an assessment created by the treasury. - liz kendall. it is an assessmentj created by the treasury. labour liz kendall. it is an assessment - created by the treasury. labour are claimint created by the treasury. labour are claiming the _ created by the treasury. labour are claiming the tories _ created by the treasury. labour are claiming the tories will _ created by the treasury. labour are claiming the tories will cut - claiming the tories will cut national insurance and inheritance tax when they promised no such thing. on the 7th of may and treasury questions, jeremy hunt, the chancellor... questions, jeremy hunt, the chancellor. . .— questions, jeremy hunt, the chancellor... questions, jeremy hunt, the i chancellor. . ._ it questions, jeremy hunt, the - chancellor. . ._ it is chancellor... this is rubbish. it is our policy — chancellor... this is rubbish. it is our policy to _ chancellor... this is rubbish. it is our policy to abolish _ chancellor... this is rubbish. it is our policy to abolish national - our policy to abolish national insurance contributions. he said, you lot up in hansard, the fantastic service that we get that put everything that is set in parliament on the record, he said it is our

policy. national insurance helps fund people's pensions and the nhs. i do, victoria, if we had said this is our policy, you would say to us, where is the 46 million coming from? he has said it. i do know what, they cannot have it both ways. we have seen the highest tax rate for 70 years in this country. now they are talking about £46 billion at least of unfunded spending on national insurance. i think it is right we to account for whatjeremy hunt has said. account for what jeremy hunt has said. ., ~' ., , account for what jeremy hunt has said. ., ~ ., , ., ., said. you know they have not promised _ said. you know they have not promised to _ said. you know they have not promised to do _ said. you know they have not promised to do that. - said. you know they have not promised to do that. claire i promised to do that. claire coutinho, do come in for one second. ijust think it is really important to say— ijust think it is really important to say that _ ijust think it is really important to say that every single labour mp, including _ to say that every single labour mp, including liz, stood on a manifesto including liz, stood on a manifesto in 2019— including liz, stood on a manifesto in 2019 to — including liz, stood on a manifesto in 2019 to raise taxes to their highest — in 2019 to raise taxes to their highest ever level. that was before we had _ highest ever level. that was before we had a _ highest ever level. that was before we had a pandemic... yes highest ever level. that was before we had a pandemic...— we had a pandemic... yes change triorities we had a pandemic... yes change priorities inside _ we had a pandemic... yes change priorities inside full _ we had a pandemic... yes change priorities inside full stop - we had a pandemic... yes change priorities inside full stop that - we had a pandemic... yes change priorities inside full stop that was| priorities inside full stop that was before we had _ priorities inside full stop that was before we had a _ priorities inside full stop that was before we had a global _ priorities inside full stop that was before we had a global pandemic| priorities inside full stop that was - before we had a global pandemic and a global— before we had a global pandemic and a global inflation crisis was that we took— a global inflation crisis was that we took really difficult choices and

spent _ we took really difficult choices and spent a _ we took really difficult choices and spent a lot of money to protect livelihoods and jobs are people, but now there _ livelihoods and jobs are people, but now there is a very clear choice, we are bringing — now there is a very clear choice, we are bringing taxes down and they are increasing _ are bringing taxes down and they are increasing them. the are bringing taxes down and they are increasing them.— increasing them. the tax burden is ttoin u-. increasing them. the tax burden is going up- it _ increasing them. the tax burden is going up- it is _ increasing them. the tax burden is going up- it is going _ increasing them. the tax burden is going up. it is going up— increasing them. the tax burden is going up. it is going up under- increasing them. the tax burden is going up. it is going up under the. going up. it is going up under the tories, it will continue to go up in the next parliament.— the next parliament. personal taxation, the next parliament. personal taxation. we _ the next parliament. personal taxation, we have _ the next parliament. personal taxation, we have set - the next parliament. personal taxation, we have set out - the next parliament. personan taxation, we have set out very the next parliament. personal- taxation, we have set out very clear policies _ taxation, we have set out very clear policies full — taxation, we have set out very clear policies full stop the taxation, we have set out very clear policies full sto— policies full stop the tax burden is ttoin u . , policies full stop the tax burden is going up. it _ policies full stop the tax burden is going up. it is _ policies full stop the tax burden is going up. it is at _ policies full stop the tax burden is going up, it is at 36.196 _ policies full stop the tax burden is going up, it is at 36.196 of- policies full stop the tax burden is going up, it is at 36.196 of gdp - going up, it is at 36.1% of gdp today, it is going up to 37% by 28-29. a today, it is going up to 37% by 28—29. a quick straight question. i am assuming you both believe voters deserve honesty, yes? yes. you can set out loud — deserve honesty, yes? yes. you can set out loud if— deserve honesty, yes? yes. you can set out loud if you _ deserve honesty, yes? yes. you can set out loud if you want. of- deserve honesty, yes? yes. you can set out loud if you want. of course. | set out loud if you want. of course. fort ive set out loud if you want. of course. forgive me. — set out loud if you want. of course. forgive me. it— set out loud if you want. of course. forgive me, it is— set out loud if you want. of course. forgive me, it is quite _ set out loud if you want. of course. forgive me, it is quite noisy - set out loud if you want. of course. forgive me, it is quite noisy there. | forgive me, it is quite noisy there. i apologise. it forgive me, it is quite noisy there. i apologise-— i apologise. it is very noisy year. it is interesting _ i apologise. it is very noisy year. it is interesting you _ i apologise. it is very noisy year. it is interesting you will- i apologise. it is very noisy year. it is interesting you will say - i apologise. it is very noisy year. it is interesting you will say yes. | it is interesting you will say yes. neither of your bosses appear to want to talk about the real

trade—offs that are coming after this election, irrespective of who wins. i am quoting pauljohnson from the institute for physical —— fiscal studies. there is no hint of openness about the real choice the winners of this election will face. it is completely obvious, either they willjunk their it is completely obvious, either they will junk their promises it is completely obvious, either they willjunk their promises on getting debt down or they will cut spending or they will raise taxes. we deserve some honesty. you have got a chance to be honest with newsnight viewers tonight. what is it going to be? i think the really important thing is, if— i think the really important thing is, if you — i think the really important thing is, if you want to fund public servicesm _ is, if you want to fund public services... we have said that spending _ services... we have said that spending will increase. you need a strong _ spending will increase. you need a strong economy. looking at labour... i'm sorry. _ strong economy. looking at labour... i'm sorry, that— strong economy. looking at labour... i'm sorry, that wasn't the question. we are short of time. this i'm sorry, that wasn't the question. we are short of time.— we are short of time. this is really important- — we are short of time. this is really important- i'm _ we are short of time. this is really important. i'm sure _ we are short of time. this is really important. i'm sure that _ we are short of time. this is really important. i'm sure that you - we are short of time. this is really important. i'm sure that you do. i | important. i'm sure that you do. i will tive important. i'm sure that you do. i will give it — important. i'm sure that you do. i will give it a _ important. i'm sure that you do. i will give it a go. _ important. i'm sure that you do. i will give it a go. we _ important. i'm sure that you do. i will give it a go. we have - important. i'm sure that you do. i will give it a go. we have set - important. i'm sure that you do. i will give it a go. we have set out| will give it a go. we have set out where we will raise taxes. {30 will give it a go. we have set out where we will raise taxes. go ahead.

we set out — where we will raise taxes. go ahead. we set out where _ where we will raise taxes. go ahead. we set out where we _ where we will raise taxes. go ahead. we set out where we will _ where we will raise taxes. go ahead. we set out where we will raise - we set out where we will raise taxes, on non—dom is and private schools to fund public services but one thing we haven't talked about is reform because i think we can get more from the nhs. i think we can do so much more to get people into work. �* ., ., ., . ,, so much more to get people into work. �* ., ., ., ., ., work. i'm going to go back to paul johnson, work. i'm going to go back to paul johnson. the _ work. i'm going to go back to paul johnson, the expert. _ work. i'm going to go back to paul johnson, the expert. he _ work. i'm going to go back to paul johnson, the expert. he knows. work. i'm going to go back to paul. johnson, the expert. he knows more than me and with respect, more than you. than me and with respect, more than ou. ., than me and with respect, more than 0“. ., ., than me and with respect, more than ou. ., ., , , . than me and with respect, more than ou. .,., you. reform of the public services is a vital part- _ you. reform of the public services is a vital part. i _ you. reform of the public services is a vital part. i don't _ you. reform of the public services is a vital part. i don't always - is a vital part. i don't always believe money is the answer. investment is crucial but isn't the whole answer. reform of public services to remove waste and inefficiency and deliver better services to the patients and parents and the public, that's a key part of our plan. we and the public, that's a key part of our tlan. ~ ., and the public, that's a key part of our tlan. . . , ., and the public, that's a key part of our tlan.t ., , ., , ., our plan. we have set out similar tro tosals our plan. we have set out similar proposals but _ our plan. we have set out similar proposals but the _ our plan. we have set out similar proposals but the question - our plan. we have set out similar proposals but the question is, . our plan. we have set out similar. proposals but the question is, what are the _ proposals but the question is, what are the differences between us? we have said _ are the differences between us? we have said we want to prioritise cutting — have said we want to prioritise cutting taxes for working families because — cutting taxes for working families because we know the cost of living has been _ because we know the cost of living has been hard and we want to put more _ has been hard and we want to put more money back in people's pockets

and we _ more money back in people's pockets and we have — more money back in people's pockets and we have been clear and honest about— and we have been clear and honest about that — and we have been clear and honest about that. we saw in the debate, whether— about that. we saw in the debate, whether it — about that. we saw in the debate, whether it was the tax on people's pensions, — whether it was the tax on people's pensions, labourare not being honest— pensions, labourare not being honest with people. | pensions, labour are not being honest with people.— pensions, labour are not being honest with people. i think your viewers want — honest with people. i think your viewers want to _ honest with people. i think your viewers want to hear _ honest with people. i think your viewers want to hear about - honest with people. i think your l viewers want to hear about what's going to change and a positive programme for the future and i think keir starmer nailed it on that. we'll leave it there. thank you so much, against the noise and everything. thank you for giving our viewers your time. mick lynch, what do you think about labour essentially sticking to the same fiscal rules as the tories? you alluded to it, do you understand thatis alluded to it, do you understand that is why they have strategy? i understand why they think that but it's a mistake. we need an alternative industrial and economic strategy. _ alternative industrial and economic strategy, we need to get good jobs into working—class communities. we need _ into working—class communities. we need to— into working—class communities. we need to re—equip working—class housing — need to re—equip working—class housing which would allow us to

tackle _ housing which would allow us to tackle global warming and the rest. they had _ tackle global warming and the rest. they had a — tackle global warming and the rest. they had a good plan, 28 billion a year was — they had a good plan, 28 billion a year was a — they had a good plan, 28 billion a year was a good plan. you have to borrow to— year was a good plan. you have to borrow to equip the country for the future _ borrow to equip the country for the future and — borrow to equip the country for the future and they should be defending that. instead they have done a worrying — that. instead they have done a worrying retreat.— that. instead they have done a worrying retreat. they argue that thin t s worrying retreat. they argue that things changed — worrying retreat. they argue that things changed after _ worrying retreat. they argue that things changed after liz - worrying retreat. they argue that things changed after liz truss - worrying retreat. they argue that i things changed after liz truss which is why they changed? you things changed after liz truss which is why they changed?— is why they changed? you get returns. is why they changed? you get returns- if _ is why they changed? you get returns. if you _ is why they changed? you get returns. if you invest - is why they changed? you get returns. if you invest in - is why they changed? you get returns. if you invest in jobs | is why they changed? you get i returns. if you invest in jobs and returns. if you invest injobs and skills— returns. if you invest injobs and skills and — returns. if you invest injobs and skills and the future and in our housing — skills and the future and in our housing stock, and we have bold ideas _ housing stock, and we have bold ideas like — housing stock, and we have bold ideas like council housing, not social— ideas like council housing, not social housing, council houses being built to _ social housing, council houses being built to address working—class needs. — built to address working—class needs, the working class would support— needs, the working class would support that. what they aren't finding — support that. what they aren't finding is— support that. what they aren't finding is that they are getting a very bold — finding is that they are getting a very bold labour policy. they will vote to _ very bold labour policy. they will vote to get — very bold labour policy. they will vote to get the tories out. we need to get— vote to get the tories out. we need to get labour into do that. that's what _ to get labour into do that. that's what this— to get labour into do that. that's what this election will be about which _ what this election will be about which is — what this election will be about which is disappointing. it should be about— which is disappointing. it should be about ideas and an alternative. even if you _ about ideas and an alternative. even if you disagree it would be nice to have _ if you disagree it would be nice to have that — if you disagree it would be nice to have that debate about an alternative.— have that debate about an alternative. ., , �* . . alternative. 1997, tony blair and gordon brown _

alternative. 1997, tony blair and gordon brown sticking _ alternative. 1997, tony blair and gordon brown sticking to - alternative. 1997, tony blair and gordon brown sticking to the - gordon brown sticking to the conservative spending limits. sir keir starmer and rachel reeves are following that playbook and they are 20 points ahead so they would say it has been a wise move. just 20 points ahead so they would say it has been a wise move.— has been a wise move. just to reiterate. _ has been a wise move. just to reiterate, the _ has been a wise move. just to reiterate, the way _ has been a wise move. just to reiterate, the way that - has been a wise move. just to reiterate, the way that the - has been a wise move. just to - reiterate, the way that the opinion polls are, labour are heading for a massive, possibly historic landslide win. but mick is right, the problems will come on the day after the election and if they dig themselves into a hole, which they are doing, not being straight with people, not committing to anything... tinkering around the edges, we are going to wake up thanks, a brave new world, labour after 14 years, but what will they do? at the moment public finances are in the tank. labour are sa int finances are in the tank. labour are saying that. — finances are in the tank. labour are saying that. sir _ finances are in the tank. labour are saying that, sir keir _ finances are in the tank. labour are saying that, sir keir starmer - finances are in the tank. labour are saying that, sir keir starmer and i saying that, sir keir starmer and rachel reeves are saying it will be a very poor economic inheritance and we won't be able to do, they say, the things that they want to do. rooting out the incompetence and corruption — rooting out the incompetence and corruption and politicians looking after _ corruption and politicians looking after themselves. will corruption and politicians looking

after themselves.— corruption and politicians looking after themselves._ i i corruption and politicians looking i after themselves._ i think after themselves. will they? i think the are after themselves. will they? i think they are more _ after themselves. will they? i think they are more straightforward - they are more straightforward people — they are more straightforward people. but they need to get some vision _ people. but they need to get some vision. what people want to hear, what _ vision. what people want to hear, what are — vision. what people want to hear, what are the values of keir starmer? will he _ what are the values of keir starmer? will he give — what are the values of keir starmer? will he give working—class people and agendas they can support? we want a _ and agendas they can support? we want a nude deal for workers, a greater role for the state. i think people _ greater role for the state. i think people would support that. in terms of what _ people would support that. in terms of what the energy companies are doing. _ of what the energy companies are doing, what the infrastructure is like _ doing, what the infrastructure is like we — doing, what the infrastructure is like. we must fund council services. they are _ like. we must fund council services. they are on — like. we must fund council services. they are on their knees. councillors of all— they are on their knees. councillors of all parties — they are on their knees. councillors of all parties will want to hear that— of all parties will want to hear that we — of all parties will want to hear that we will get democracy back by allowing _ that we will get democracy back by allowing them to run their services with a _ allowing them to run their services with a budget. we can do that. what about, if labour— with a budget. we can do that. what about, if labour win, _ with a budget. we can do that. what about, if labour win, the _ with a budget. we can do that. what about, if labourwin, thejunior doctors straight? you about, if labour win, the 'unior doctors straight?�* about, if labour win, the 'unior doctors straight? you have to fund it. -- doctors straight? you have to fund it- -- doctors _ doctors straight? you have to fund it. -- doctors strike. _ doctors straight? you have to fund it. -- doctors strike. i— doctors straight? you have to fund it. -- doctors strike. i would - doctors straight? you have to fund it. -- doctors strike. i would not i it. -- doctors strike. i would not satisfy the _ it. -- doctors strike. i would not satisfy the full _ it. -- doctors strike. i would not satisfy the full demand, - it. -- doctors strike. i would not satisfy the full demand, they - it. -- doctors strike. i would not i satisfy the full demand, they don't expect— satisfy the full demand, they don't expect that but you have to say to people. _ expect that but you have to say to people, which we will resolve the dispute _ people, which we will resolve the dispute by putting money into it. | dispute by putting money into it. i think dispute by putting money into it.

think rishi dispute by putting money into it. i think rishi sunak made a good point, they've been trying to resolve it. the representatives of the junior doctors are adamant that they want 35%. this will be at keir starmer's door in five weeks' time, lightly. take immigration, we all know that there is a massive problem, with the small boats and also, in a bigger way, the legal migration way, the net migration numbers are unsustainable for this country. we have 5 million people at home not working. none of this is right in a thriving, democratic country like ours, so where is the big idea? what keir starmer said about the boats is that we are going to smash the gangs. rhetoric, meaningless. i think that the rwanda plan was nonsensical.— think that the rwanda plan was nonsensical. �* ., , ., nonsensical. both parties are saying that they will _ nonsensical. both parties are saying that they will reduce _ nonsensical. both parties are saying that they will reduce net _ nonsensical. both parties are saying that they will reduce net migration l that they will reduce net migration but neither is willing to put a target on it or a cap on it, although they talk about it, note figure. if you are a voter who would

like to see net migration come down then you may conclude that both promises are meaningless. sync! then you may conclude that both promises are meaningless. and both are beint promises are meaningless. and both are being dishonest. _ promises are meaningless. and both are being dishonest. the _ promises are meaningless. and both are being dishonest. the people - promises are meaningless. and both are being dishonest. the people who run the economy _ are being dishonest. the people who run the economy in _ are being dishonest. the people who run the economy in the _ are being dishonest. the people who run the economy in the country - run the economy in the country wanted — run the economy in the country wanted high migration so they had the chance to deal with that. we have _ the chance to deal with that. we have had — the chance to deal with that. we have had higher migration because that is— have had higher migration because that is how— have had higher migration because that is how the wages system works. waves _ that is how the wages system works. waves of— that is how the wages system works. waves of outsourcing and rages have been dropping like a stone —— and wages _ been dropping like a stone —— and wages have — been dropping like a stone —— and wages have been dropping. and been dropping like a stone -- and wages have been dropping. and nigel farate has wages have been dropping. and nigel farage has intervened _ wages have been dropping. and nigel farage has intervened in _ wages have been dropping. and nigel farage has intervened in the - farage has intervened in the election, as we know. he is a candidate. i wonder if in part because of how you were goading him on question time last week. let's have a look. he's bottled it. piers... you've bottled it. you've never had the bottle to stand ever in your career. you've bottled it, mate. i'm not a politician. you've stood... i'm not a politician. _ you've bottled it. you're here pretending to represent a ta , ., , yeah i think i did goad him into it because there's something ridiculous about him sitting there representing

about him sitting there representing a party he isn't running for. ifeel sorry for richard tice who has been carved out for the big ego of nigel farage. the unmentionable is brexit. no one is talking about it. eight years after the referendum. i voted remain and was adamant that you can't have another referendum immediately. i'm sorry, after eight years, given the state of the supposed control of our borders, which is terrible, and giving the self—harm effect on the economy surely it is time that labour had an honest conversation about where the polling is on brexit, which is that most people would like in a forever —— another referendum. the most people would like in a forever -- another referendum.— most people would like in a forever -- another referendum. the obr says it would represent _ -- another referendum. the obr says it would represent a _ -- another referendum. the obr says it would represent a 496 _ -- another referendum. the obr says it would represent a 496 hit _ -- another referendum. the obr says it would represent a 496 hit to - -- another referendum. the obr says it would represent a 496 hit to the - it would represent a 4% hit to the uk economy over 15 years. on the subject of mr farage, there is a tory mp today in a red wall seat essentially begging nigel farage and with four not to stand candidates

against, as he puts it, certain mps who have a track record of four type policies. who have a track record of four type tolicies. , ., , who have a track record of four type tolicies. , . , ., , policies. they are begging to be more right _ policies. they are begging to be more right wing. _ policies. they are begging to be more right wing. nigel- policies. they are begging to be more right wing. nigel farage l policies. they are begging to be| more right wing. nigel farage is dangerous, he is a racist and a charlatan~ _ dangerous, he is a racist and a charlatan. he dangerous, he is a racist and a charlatan— dangerous, he is a racist and a charlatan. ., , , . ,, ., charlatan. he would push back on that. he charlatan. he would push back on that- he is— charlatan. he would push back on that. he is entitled _ charlatan. he would push back on that. he is entitled to _ charlatan. he would push back on that. he is entitled to but - charlatan. he would push back on that. he is entitled to but he - charlatan. he would push back on that. he is entitled to but he has| that. he is entitled to but he has convinced me _ that. he is entitled to but he has convinced me he _ that. he is entitled to but he has convinced me he is _ that. he is entitled to but he has convinced me he is racist - that. he is entitled to but he has convinced me he is racist and - that. he is entitled to but he has convinced me he is racist and he| that. he is entitled to but he has l convinced me he is racist and he is prepared _ convinced me he is racist and he is prepared to — convinced me he is racist and he is prepared to play with racism and nationalism in a dangerous way. he's trying _ nationalism in a dangerous way. he's trying to— nationalism in a dangerous way. he's trying to pull the conservative party— trying to pull the conservative party to — trying to pull the conservative party to the right. that will destroy— party to the right. that will destroy the tory party historically and its— destroy the tory party historically and it's a — destroy the tory party historically and it's a dangerous position. but on the and it's a dangerous position. on the brexit and it's a dangerous position. emit on the brexit question, a majority voted to leave the eu, in part, some people who voted brexit say, to reduce net migration. so they might feel that those promises have been broken? ., �* . ., feel that those promises have been broken? . �*, ., , feel that those promises have been broken? . �*, . , , ., broken? that's a battle they should take u- broken? that's a battle they should take up with _ broken? that's a battle they should take up with the _ broken? that's a battle they should take up with the conservative - broken? that's a battle they should| take up with the conservative party. lots take up with the conservative party. lots of— take up with the conservative party. lots of problems with the eu and my union— lots of problems with the eu and my union had _ lots of problems with the eu and my union had problems with it as well. but most _ union had problems with it as well.

but most of— union had problems with it as well. but most of these politicians are charlatans, promising one thing and doing _ charlatans, promising one thing and doing another. that's a real problem _ doing another. that's a real problem-— doing another. that's a real troblem. ., ., ., , problem. you are close to rupert murdoch who _ problem. you are close to rupert murdoch who is _ problem. you are close to rupert murdoch who is your _ problem. you are close to rupert murdoch who is your boss. - problem. you are close to rupert murdoch who is your boss. if- problem. you are close to rupert murdoch who is your boss. if he l problem. you are close to rupert i murdoch who is your boss. if he was watching tonight i wonder if the sun would come out in favour of rishi sunak or keir starmer? ihe would come out in favour of rishi sunak or keir starmer?— would come out in favour of rishi sunak or keir starmer? he has 'ust tot sunak or keir starmer? he has 'ust get married. — sunak or keir starmer? he has 'ust get married. rfi sunak or keir starmer? he has 'ust got married, i would i sunak or keir starmer? he has 'ust got married, i would like i sunak or keir starmer? he has 'ust got married, i would like to i sunak or keir starmer? he hasjust got married, i would like to wish i got married, i would like to wish him all the best.— him all the best. what would he think? i him all the best. what would he think? i don't— him all the best. what would he think? i don't know. _ him all the best. what would he think? i don't know. you - him all the best. what would he think? i don't know. you must. think? i don't know. you must have had a conversation _ think? i don't know. you must have had a conversation with _ think? i don't know. you must have had a conversation with him? i think? i don't know. you must have had a conversation with him? they| had a conversation with him? they are ttivin had a conversation with him? they are giving labour— had a conversation with him? they are giving labour a _ had a conversation with him? they are giving labour a fair— had a conversation with him? t“ie: are giving labour a fair shake which is an interesting sign. papers that have been historically pretty negative towards labour over the last ten years, starting to give them at least a fair platform. again, the pressure is on keir starmer, the frontrunner and odds on favourite. i think we would agree about this, he must show the country what he really stands for. i didn't get that feeling from the debate. what i did get a feeling for is that the man who is on his knees, the

captain of the titanic, rishi sunak, came out fighting and did himself some credit. came out fighting and did himself some credit-— came out fighting and did himself some credit. let's go back to nick in manchester. _ some credit. let's go back to nick in manchester. so, _ some credit. let's go back to nick in manchester. so, wrap - some credit. let's go back to nick in manchester. so, wrap it - some credit. let's go back to nick in manchester. so, wrap it up i some credit. let's go back to nick in manchester. so, wrap it up for| in manchester. so, wrap it up for our viewers, where does tonight leave us? ~ �* . our viewers, where does tonight leave us? ~ �* , ., , ., leave us? well there's no question that rishi sunak _ leave us? well there's no question that rishi sunak had _ leave us? well there's no question that rishi sunak had a _ leave us? well there's no question that rishi sunak had a very - that rishi sunak had a very difficult start to the campaign, well behind in the polls. you always have a wobble in the campaign and the tories have been wobbling back tonight at the very least rishi sunak has shown he can put up a fight and he is in the fight. the question is whether it is of his debate with liz truss, winning on points but not making the emotional connection? keir starmer, maybe he was slow to knock down the £2000 tax rise figure. his people say that he is very deliberative, taking his time, which is what the country wants. that's what labour says. let's have a look at some of the newspapers. the guardian, leaders

clashed on migration, tax and nhs intel tempered debate. the front page of the daily mail, fiery rishi comes out swinging. he'll be happy with that. the i, 2024 election ignites. the daily mirror, these are all good men, as we build up to d—day, of course, the commemorations for that. d—day, of course, the commemorations forthat. i d—day, of course, the commemorations for that. i can't see the financial times, i'm so sorry. i can't read it. that's about the indian elections. and a shaky start for farage, who was milkshaked today. not good, that. i know he was freaked out by 2019 when it happened, the same thing. we have had two mps killed in this country. when you are out there in the public and somebody throws something at you... i don't care what