all of its allies have agreed be in. all of its allies have agreed to back narendra modi for prime minister but because they will need them to pass that for majority mark in parliament, they will have to make concessions on things like parliamentary and cabinet positions. in a broader sense as well, even with the allies, in that parliament building they do not have the numbers to be able to pass through laws, so they will need to get at least some from the opposition to agree with them. in the past five years what we have seen numerous times is bill's been passed without debate, without discussion, without questioning by a group majority. that cannot happen any more but the biggest setback of this election result has come to brand modi. it is a face we see everywhere whether on welfare programmes, vaccine certificates and banners on the streets. it is not a presidential contest, it's a parliamentary one but because his face is everywhere, it had become about him and a

godlike personality that has grown around him, that is not seen as invincible any more. russia has faced repeated rounds of western sanctions, but its economy has continued to grow thanks to help from china. it means the mood at russia's equivalent of davos — welcome to newsnight. our political panel tonight — philip collins, who was tony blair's speech writer and worked alongside sir keir starmer on his 2021 conference speech, and mercy muroki, who is a former policy adviser to the conservative's kemi badenoch. today has been very much

about the fall—out from last night's tv debate when mr sunak claimed housesholds would be paying £2,000 more in tax if labour win. we questioned energy secretary clare coutinho on newsnight last night straight after the itv debate. clare coutinho, where did you get this £2,000 figure from? because it is not an impartial independent figure, is it, it is your own tory special advisers who have added this up and come up with the sums? no, no, not at all. so this is a figure which has come up by treasury officials, so these are independent impartial civil servants, and what they have done is very simple. they have added up the cost of the policies that the labour party have said they want to put in place in the next parliament, and the figure that that comes out with is an extra £2,000 of taxes for working families, and the reason that i think keir starmer couldn't simply say no, i'm not doing that, for many, many times he was challenged on this

question, is because it's true. i mean, victoria, you put rubbish in, you get rubbish out and that's what this is. that's independent civil servants in the treasury. i am going to pull you up on that, clare coutinho, i am going to pull you on that. they're not independent, they're not impartial, the assumptions on which the calculations are based have been made by tory special advisers, they are political appointees. they are very strict. hang on a second. no, hang on, and that is misleading to voters, and therefore very disrespectful. so can ijust say, those numbers are created by the treasury, and there's very strict rules on how youcando opposition costings. if you think that the treasury would just add up anything that tory special advisers gave, no matter what it was, and come up with a figure, which is backed by the treasury, then you are sorely mistaken. so nick is here, and the conservatives have doubled down on this today and keir starmer has called the prime minister a liar which is very unusual.- called the prime minister a liar which is very unusual. yes, excuse the un, which is very unusual. yes, excuse the pun. but _ which is very unusual. yes, excuse the pun. but you — which is very unusual. yes, excuse

the pun, but you were _ which is very unusual. yes, excuse the pun, but you were on - which is very unusual. yes, excuse the pun, but you were on the - which is very unusual. yes, excuse i the pun, but you were on the money on this one because that was an early glimpse of what has become the biggest row of this election campaign so far which is rishi sunak trying to recreate what served john major so well which is a labour tax bombshell, saying after what the prime minister said in that debate and what his colleague told you which is that this sum of money was signed off by the treasury. now we know the treasury are not happy about that because they wrote a letter to labour two days about this, and they are saying yes, we did make these assessment, opposition spending plans, all governments ask all treasury officials to do that, there is nothing strange but the point is these are assessment made by political advisers, these are assessment made by politicaladvisers, but these are assessment made by political advisers, but there is another element to this which is that tories came up with a global figure, £38 billion black hole in labour's plans which produced that £2,000 figure from the prime minister. minister. that was based on some additional work by the institute for government. nick day

advice, the institute for government quy advice, the institute for government guy who did that said his research is being used in a nonsense way, so what is the reaction? labour delighted, they are saying we have caught the tories absolutely red handed, from the conservatives, a former cabinet minister who is often critical of rishi sunak and they are say happy, labour on the defensive, they are saying what the process, what the tertiary think, they are not talking about substance but rishi sunak was waiting for this moment. he was well prepared. he was well prepared. what you saw last night was a prime minister with his back against the wall, desperately trying to defend 14 years of failure, resorting — and it was a flash of his character, an insight into his character — to lies. i don't say that lightly. so, phil collins you have worked

with stumble star and tony blair. —— keir starmer and tony blair coped with the tory attacks in the run—up to 97, what is the difference between then and now. the difference is that labour's _ between then and now. the difference is that labour's still— between then and now. the difference is that labour's still 20 odd _ between then and now. the difference is that labour's still 20 odd points - is that labour's still 20 odd points ahead, if you remember back to those attack, new labour, new danger and that stuff, it didn't work very well and i don't think these will work very well. there is a desperation to this, and i understand why. the prime minister is desperate. because he is desperate. when you are desperate you need desperate measure, we has done what every campaign has this moment when you add up the possible numbers you can everfind anywhere, add up the possible numbers you can ever find anywhere, you add up the possible numbers you can everfind anywhere, you put add up the possible numbers you can ever find anywhere, you put them all together in one big box, you do four years at once, but you don't tell anyone it is four years and you make it sound like a very big number then you divide it by the number of households and you say this is the bill, you pretend that is coming today. so far so conventional. the bit they have got badly wrong was to

really foolishly and this is amateur hourin really foolishly and this is amateur hour in my view, to allow themselves to be hung on the fact they are pretending the treasury has sanction shunned this move, when if only they had said we have done these costings, and we are telling you that will be a standard move, that would then guilt you into an argument about tax, a stupid an guemt about tax because i think the spectator have done a piece when they said the conservative party did they said the conservative party did the same exercise it would be £3,000. ., , , the same exercise it would be £3,000-_ the i the same exercise it would be - £3,000._ the whole £3,000. that is is right. the whole thin . £3,000. that is is right. the whole thin is £3,000. that is is right. the whole thing is preposterous _ £3,000. that is is right. the whole thing is preposterous really - £3,000. that is is right. the whole thing is preposterous really but - thing is preposterous really but they have managed to take something ridiculous and turn it into an own goal. it ridiculous and turn it into an own coal. , ., ridiculous and turn it into an own roal , ., ., ridiculous and turn it into an own coal. , ., ., ridiculous and turn it into an own coal. ., ~ goal. it is an own goal? are the conservatives _ goal. it is an own goal? are the conservatives happy _ goal. it is an own goal? are the conservatives happy this - goal. it is an own goal? are the conservatives happy this figure | goal. it is an own goal? are the i conservatives happy this figure is being discussed? it conservatives happy this figure is being discussed?— being discussed? it had lots of traction because _ being discussed? it had lots of traction because when - being discussed? it had lots of traction because when the - being discussed? it had lots of| traction because when the snap being discussed? it had lots of- traction because when the snap poll was done _ traction because when the snap poll was done when the debate last night, rishi sunak— was done when the debate last night, rishi sunak actually was a couple of points— rishi sunak actually was a couple of points ahead, i think he was 51% of people _ points ahead, i think he was 51% of people in_ points ahead, i think he was 51% of people in that snap poll thought he

did better so the strategy he had at the time _ did better so the strategy he had at the time was something that did have traction, _ the time was something that did have traction, you know, the prime minister's _ traction, you know, the prime minister's not stupid, he knows that people _ minister's not stupid, he knows that people can — minister's not stupid, he knows that people can very well be focusing on the fact, _ people can very well be focusing on the fact, the bigger conservative figures _ the fact, the bigger conservative figures in — the fact, the bigger conservative figures in terms of the tax burden, but what _ figures in terms of the tax burden, but what are we talking about today? we are _ but what are we talking about today? we are talking about the labour tax burden, _ we are talking about the labour tax burden, is— we are talking about the labour tax burden, is it— we are talking about the labour tax burden, is it true, how did they come _ burden, is it true, how did they come with— burden, is it true, how did they come with up it? what we are not talking _ come with up it? what we are not talking about is what is the equivalent figure for the conservatives? so on one hand i can see why— conservatives? so on one hand i can see why he — conservatives? so on one hand i can see why he pushed this, he pushed this, because now this is all what we are _ this, because now this is all what we are talking about, you know, but as you _ we are talking about, you know, but as you say, — we are talking about, you know, but as you say, phil, it was a bit of an own— as you say, phil, it was a bit of an own goal— as you say, phil, it was a bit of an own goal because it could have been a non—story... but own goal because it could have been a non-story---_ a non-story... but the irony, perhaps— a non-story... but the irony, perhaps no — a non-story... but the irony, perhaps no the _ a non-story... but the irony, perhaps no the irony, - a non-story... but the irony, perhaps no the irony, i - a non-story... but the irony, perhaps no the irony, i don't| a non-story... but the irony, - perhaps no the irony, i don't want to use that word, voters aren't stupid, they know how high the tax burden is, it is the highest since world war ii and it is projected to go up. whoever wins pauljohnson from the ifs told newsnight whoever wins they will have to put up taxes.

there is reasonable case for saying nobody is telling the truth about tax, if we were to have a neutral contest, that is probably the conversation we would be having but this is the can and thrust of an election campaign so we get quality of information which is lower, but, nevertheless, there is still something rather ridiculous about this gathering of all these numbers from far and wide, into one pot and overfour from far and wide, into one pot and over four years from far and wide, into one pot and overfour years and they from far and wide, into one pot and over four years and they is 2000,000, and i think that, there will be a strong sense in the country too, —— 2,000. we are in a bit ofa mess, country too, —— 2,000. we are in a bit of a mess, there is all sorts of things wrong with the country, things wrong with the country, things are broken so the notion that there is not going to be the necessity for some sort of revenue raising in due course, is probably completely baked into people's expectation. so completely baked into people's expeetation-— completely baked into people's exectation. , ., ., , expectation. so why are no parties talkin: expectation. so why are no parties talking about _ expectation. so why are no parties talking about that? _ expectation. so why are no parties talking about that? because - expectation. so why are no parties talking about that? because it - talking about that? because it is not a vote winner. i will come back to the point voters are not stupid. but what they want to see and i

think— but what they want to see and i think this — but what they want to see and i think this is why rishi sunak kept saying _ think this is why rishi sunak kept saying we — think this is why rishi sunak kept saying we are talking about the future, — saying we are talking about the future, he knows he could be attacked _ future, he knows he could be attacked on his record, the conservatives have been in power for 14 years _ conservatives have been in power for 14 years so _ conservatives have been in power for 14 years so they have a very long record _ 14 years so they have a very long record to — 14 years so they have a very long record to attack, and it was surprising _ record to attack, and it was surprising that keir starmer didn't use the _ surprising that keir starmer didn't use the opportunity multiple time, rishi sunak was repeating the line, it was— rishi sunak was repeating the line, it was almost bizarre he didn't sort of refer— it was almost bizarre he didn't sort of refer to — it was almost bizarre he didn't sort of refer to the figures he could have _ of refer to the figures he could have very _ of refer to the figures he could have very easily referred to in attacking _ have very easily referred to in attacking-— have very easily referred to in attackina. ~ ., attacking. well he did, i mean it wasn't true _ attacking. well he did, i mean it wasn't true he _ attacking. well he did, i mean it wasn't true he didn't _ attacking. well he did, i mean it wasn't true he didn't respond, . attacking. well he did, i mean it| wasn't true he didn't respond, he did say no, that is not true, he did say, he didn't say as forcefully as perhaps his advisers... if you watch it back he did, what happens, when it back he did, what happens, when it is referred to again, he rolls his eyes, and he shakes his head and he acts as though, come on. i know that doesn't come across and he probably should have gone in and said it is garbage from the beginning which is what he ended up saying, maybe he could have gone in harder, i think there is a very

important reason why labour doesn't want, isn't talking about tax rises because the labour party is a different position, the labour party always has to win the trust of the people, against the assumption and the accusation it will be profligate. it is not so long ago the labour party was led by a leadership that was free with imaginary money that it was going to spend and so i would endorse what keir starmer and rachel reeves have done, in keeping it tight. late keir starmer and rachel reeves have done, in keeping it tight.— done, in keeping it tight. we will back with you — done, in keeping it tight. we will back with you shortly. _ that row over tax emerged in last night's tv debate. the next one is a seven way affair on friday night on bbc one, hosted by mishal husain, and these are the seven people taking part — penny mordaunt from the tories, angela raynerfrom labour, stephen flynn snp, rheen ap yoreth from plaid cymru. nigel farage from reform, carla denyer from the greens and daisy cooper from the liberal democrats. it all starts at 7.30.

we will have post debate analysis with faisal on newsnight. let's talk to conservative peer lord goldsmith, zac goldsmith, former climate minster who resigned from the government last year accusing rishi sunak of being "simply uninterested" in the environment. welcome the newsnight. i wonder what you think, first of all, about the fact that thus far in this election campaign, the global climate has barely featured.— campaign, the global climate has barely featured. mine it is not that surrise, barely featured. mine it is not that surprise. it — barely featured. mine it is not that surprise, it has _ barely featured. mine it is not that surprise, it has been _ barely featured. mine it is not that surprise, it has been such - barely featured. mine it is not that surprise, it has been such a - barely featured. mine it is not that surprise, it has been such a busy l surprise, it has been such a busy time, so many big things that have happened, and if you, if you are living in an area which has a housing shortage and someone asks you what your concern is you are not going to say the congo basin being destroyed, you want a better nhs or better housing, it is rare the environment is cited at the most immediate concern but it's the

biggest concern logically l is no doubt about this, we are undermining, killing those ecological system that make life possible. there can't be a bigger issue, wile it won't feature much in the election and there are reasons for that, the election and there are reasons forthat, it the election and there are reasons for that, it matters that the next government feels pressure from people, one way or the other to deliver, because if we have a government that behaves in the way the conservative government has behaved in the last few months which is to walk off the international stage, show zero interest? what is the define challenge of our age, then we will be in real trouble, the uk has a massively important role to play and we have seen that where really big things have been agreed globally, almost entirely down to the hard work of some of our invisible but brilliant negotiators invisible but brilliant negotiators in defra, in the foreign office and i had the privilege of working with these people and seeing the impact of their work, so i am anxious that the next government feels pressure to up their game dramatically. you sa the to up their game dramatically. you say the uk's _

to up their game dramatically. you say the uk's walked off the international stage. the government say we are the first major economy to half greenhouse gas emissions since 20090. we have set a major target, referring to the target to cut emissions from manufacturing by about two thirds, by 2035, is that not enough? it about two thirds, by 2035, is that rrot enough?— about two thirds, by 2035, is that not enough? it is true that the uk has a better _ not enough? it is true that the uk has a better record _ not enough? it is true that the uk has a better record than - not enough? it is true that the uk has a better record than i think. has a better record than i think it gets credit for but that is different to saying this current iteration of the conservative government has a good record, under the current prime minister there has been little progress but i would step back a second if i can, the climate politics, and, it is very two dimensional, when people talk about the environment they end up talking about carbon emission, energy transmission but climate change is one symptom of many and the problem is our relationship where the natural world, and itjust is infuriating but wrong that the environment and this is something thatis environment and this is something that is done by the broadcasters as well as politicians and commentators is squeezed into this very two

dimensional box and we don't talk about the things that matterf dimensional box and we don't talk about the things that matter f the congo basin going and it is going at a million hectares a year that is half the rainfall of africa that would be there. it, if we lose the amazon, if we allow indonesia yea to to be destroyed it is game over, so this stuff really matters. i to be destroyed it is game over, so this stuff really matters.— this stuff really matters. i take our this stuff really matters. i take your point _ this stuff really matters. i take your point about _ this stuff really matters. i take your point about the _ this stuff really matters. i take your point about the media - this stuff really matters. i take your point about the media as | this stuff really matters. i take - your point about the media as well. you will hate this next question, you are no fan of rishi sunak, so how much is your criticism of him when it comes to the environment to do with the fact that you are much closer to boris johnson do with the fact that you are much closer to borisjohnson and you cannot be doing with rishi sunak? i care more about the issues than personalities in politics, and i remain a minister under rishi sunak because i want to get things done, and i was a minister under boris johnson also because i wanted to get things done and i found johnson also because i wanted to get things done and ifound under johnson also because i wanted to get things done and i found under boris johnson and even his critics, when

they look at his environment record, would acknowledge that we got more donein would acknowledge that we got more done in his time in office than any previous prime minister in this country. previous prime minister in this count . , country. did you watch the debate last night? _ country. did you watch the debate last night? i _ country. did you watch the debate last night? i went _ country. did you watch the debate last night? i went through - country. did you watch the debate last night? i went through a - country. did you watch the debate | last night? i went through a period of caettin last night? i went through a period of getting so _ last night? i went through a period of getting so much _ last night? i went through a period of getting so much done, - of getting so much done, too struggling to avoid walking backwards, and the straw that broke my back was that i was going to have to stand up in parliament and say things which were not true about the aid budget and the amount of money we had committed and were going to be spending on climate finance, we made a pledge which was largely responsible for helping us getting the rest of the world to commit their pledge to the environment, but their pledge to the environment, but the government was very clear internally at least, that we were not going to hit that target and we were going to manipulate the figures to make should look like we were not going to hit that target —— to make it look like we were going to hit that target and i was not going to accept that. do that target and i was not going to accept that-— accept that. do you have any confidence _ accept that. do you have any confidence that _ accept that. do you have any confidence that labour- accept that. do you have any confidence that labour will. accept that. do you have any| confidence that labour will do accept that. do you have any - confidence that labour will do what you want to be done when it comes to

the environment? fin you want to be done when it comes to the environment?— the environment? on energy transition — the environment? on energy transition and _ the environment? on energy transition and energy - the environment? on energy i transition and energy efficiency, the environment? on energy - transition and energy efficiency, we will see a lot of investment, and that will be good, we will see jobs and economic growth, so even though we're hearing much, i think they are pretty much committed to investing what is needed to turn the tide. 0n nature, i'm less convinced, and they are champions in the labour party, david lammy will hopefully be the next foreign secretary and i think he recognises and understands the importance of nature in this debate and he understands the importance of the uk within that issue. i'm not convinced there's a big team of people around him who share that view, though. people around him who share that view. though-— view, though. would you consider 'oinin~ view, though. would you consider ioining labour— view, though. would you consider joining labour in _ view, though. would you consider joining labour in the _ view, though. would you consider joining labour in the house - view, though. would you consider joining labour in the house of- joining labour in the house of lords? you don't sound... i’m joining labour in the house of lords? you don't sound... i'm very much a conservative and _ lords? you don't sound... i'm very much a conservative and i - lords? you don't sound... i'm very much a conservative and i always l much a conservative and i always have been but i have very little time for the government as it is right now, we have had 14 years, and i think we could have achieved a

great deal more than we have and i think of the issues that really matter, i... do think of the issues that really matter. i- - -— think of the issues that really matter, i... , , ., ., matter, i... do they deserve another five years? — matter, i... do they deserve another five years? it — matter, i... do they deserve another five years? it is _ matter, i... do they deserve another five years? it is very _ matter, i... do they deserve another five years? it is very hard _ matter, i... do they deserve another five years? it is very hard to - matter, i... do they deserve another five years? it is very hard to make i five years? it is very hard to make the case they _ five years? it is very hard to make the case they deserve _ five years? it is very hard to make the case they deserve another- five years? it is very hard to make j the case they deserve another five years, and from my perspective, i care more than anything else about theseissues care more than anything else about these issues we are talking about and i do not see any leadership on the top in the conservatives, and we are not seen much from the labour party but there are people within the labour party who are senior figures and they will probably be the next government unless something weird happens, i have more confidence in those people to deliver than i do with the current incumbent in number ten but it is in all of our interests. i am not a tribal politician, and whoever runs the country for the next five years, i will do everything i can to pressure them to prioritise these issues and to get it right and i will work with anyone. you issues and to get it right and i will work with anyone. you said on twitter that _ will work with anyone. you said on twitter that you _ will work with anyone. you said on twitter that you understand - will work with anyone. you said on twitter that you understand the i twitter that you understand the anger towards rishi sunak, who has damaged the party almost beyond repair. you went on to say he has

all but guaranteed a majority of his mps will lose theirjob next month. do you genuinely believe that most tory mps will be voted out? it is lookin: tory mps will be voted out? it is looking pretty — tory mps will be voted out? it 3 looking pretty bleak. i have not been studying the election day today like you, but it is hard to imagine that much of the party will remain after election day. but who knows? strange things can happen. there is a decent opposition at least so i think that was a good thing and it may be the voters worry about the conservative party being completely obliterated and will correct their vote somewhat, that is the only thing that might swings back a bit in favour of the conservatives and i hope that happens because i think a giant majority is dangerous in the hands of any party.— hands of any party. thanks for 'oinin~ hands of any party. thanks for joining us- _ there will be conversations going on within the tories about the future

of the party depending on what happens in the election. and of the party depending on what happens in the election. and they will be conversations _ happens in the election. and they will be conversations going - happens in the election. and they will be conversations going on - happens in the election. and they i will be conversations going on about zac goldsmith saying it is hard to imagine — zac goldsmith saying it is hard to imagine much of the conservative party— imagine much of the conservative party will— imagine much of the conservative party will remain in parliament after— party will remain in parliament after this— party will remain in parliament after this election. they have been conversations of stage about a canada — conversations of stage about a canada style meltdown where it is even _ canada style meltdown where it is even bigger than the normal landslide in 1945, 1997, much more than that, _ landslide in 1945, 1997, much more than that, and you have had zac goldsmith — than that, and you have had zac goldsmith talking about a bleak picture — goldsmith talking about a bleak picture for his party. used goldsmith talking about a bleak picture for his party.— goldsmith talking about a bleak picture for his party. used to work for kemi badenoch _ picture for his party. used to work for kemi badenoch and _ picture for his party. used to work for kemi badenoch and she - picture for his party. used to work for kemi badenoch and she will. picture for his party. used to workj for kemi badenoch and she will no doubt be fighting for every vote for the conservatives but there are people like her and penny mordaunt and others who will be forgiven for looking post—election and thinking, what are their chances if they keep their own seats of being the next leader? , ., ., , , , leader? yes, that will inevitably be the case, leader? yes, that will inevitably be the case. and _ leader? yes, that will inevitably be the case, and i'm _ leader? yes, that will inevitably be the case, and i'm sure _ leader? yes, that will inevitably be the case, and i'm sure that - leader? yes, that will inevitably be the case, and i'm sure that has - leader? yes, that will inevitably be i the case, and i'm sure that has been the case, and i'm sure that has been the case, and i'm sure that has been the case for a while and i don't think anybody is under any impression that rishi sunak intends to remain a backbench mp if he loses

for a significant amount of time, and the real question for whoever goes on to lead the conservatives after rishi sunak, it is an existential question for the party, and a question about the identity of the party because a lot of people have lost faith in the conservatives to actually have any principles and stand for anything and have conservative values, and the reason kemi badenoch who i work for has been particularly popular is because she is one of the more robust figures when it comes to having principles... figures when it comes to having principles- - -_ figures when it comes to having principles- - -— figures when it comes to having principles... you are shaking your head in disagreement? _ principles... you are shaking your. head in disagreement? conservative pa is on head in disagreement? conservative party is on the _ head in disagreement? conservative party is on the edge _ head in disagreement? conservative party is on the edge of— head in disagreement? conservative party is on the edge of a _ party is on the edge of a catastrophe and i think they had agreed — catastrophe and i think they had agreed glimmer this week of a total meltdown— agreed glimmer this week of a total meltdown of the kind we have not seen _ meltdown of the kind we have not seen before, and in 2019 the left had control of the labour party and they led _ had control of the labour party and they led it — had control of the labour party and they led it to catastrophe and now they led it to catastrophe and now the right— they led it to catastrophe and now the right have taken control of the

conservative party and they want to cater for _ conservative party and they want to cater for a _ conservative party and they want to cater for a small right—wing element but there _ cater for a small right—wing element but there is— cater for a small right—wing element but there is not enough. the conservative party needs to count up to 19 because that is where they are in the _ to 19 because that is where they are in the opinion polls. if you are leaning — in the opinion polls. if you are leaning towards that side, you cannot— leaning towards that side, you cannot win. leaning towards that side, you cannot win-— cannot win. the only poll that counts is _ cannot win. the only poll that counts is on _ cannot win. the only poll that counts is on the _ cannot win. the only poll that counts is on the 4th - cannot win. the only poll that counts is on the 4th of- cannot win. the only poll that counts is on the 4th ofjuly i cannot win. the only poll that| counts is on the 4th ofjuly but what does it tell you in terms of where reform uk are? it is what does it tell you in terms of where reform uk are?- what does it tell you in terms of where reform uk are? it is a yugo of ole and it where reform uk are? it is a yugo of pole and it basically _ where reform uk are? it is a yugo of pole and it basically says _ where reform uk are? it is a yugo of pole and it basically says that - where reform uk are? it is a yugo of pole and it basically says that the - pole and it basically says that the conservative _ pole and it basically says that the conservative party _ pole and it basically says that the conservative party on _ pole and it basically says that the conservative party on this - pole and it basically says that the conservative party on this one . pole and it basically says that the conservative party on this one isi conservative party on this one is 'ust conservative party on this one is just two— conservative party on this one is just two points _ conservative party on this one is just two points ahead _ conservative party on this one is just two points ahead of- conservative party on this one is just two points ahead of reform| conservative party on this one is i just two points ahead of reform uk -- yougov — just two points ahead of reform uk —— yougov. yougov_ just two points ahead of reform uk —— yougov. yougov have _ just two points ahead of reform uk —— yougov. yougov have also - just two points ahead of reform uk i —— yougov. yougov have also changed their methodology— —— yougov. yougov have also changed their methodology and _ —— yougov. yougov have also changed their methodology and if— —— yougov. yougov have also changed their methodology and if they - —— yougov. yougov have also changed their methodology and if they had - their methodology and if they had used their— their methodology and if they had used their old _ their methodology and if they had used their old methodology- their methodology and if they had used their old methodology they. used their old methodology they would _ used their old methodology they would have — used their old methodology they would have been— used their old methodology they would have been tied _ used their old methodology they would have been tied on - used their old methodology they would have been tied on 19%. i used their old methodology they - would have been tied on 19%. reform uk hope _ would have been tied on 19%. reform uk hope that— would have been tied on 19%. reform uk hope that if— would have been tied on 19%. reform uk hope that if nigel— would have been tied on 19%. reform uk hope that if nigel farage - would have been tied on 19%. reform uk hope that if nigel farage —— - would have been tied on 19%. reform uk hope that if nigel farage —— hopel uk hope that if nigel farage —— hope that if— uk hope that if nigel farage —— hope that if nigel— uk hope that if nigel farage —— hope that if nigel farage _ uk hope that if nigel farage —— hope that if nigel farage was— uk hope that if nigel farage —— hope that if nigel farage was going - uk hope that if nigel farage —— hope that if nigel farage was going to- that if nigel farage was going to stand _ that if nigel farage was going to stand they— that if nigel farage was going to stand they would _ that if nigel farage was going to stand they would be _ that if nigel farage was going to stand they would be doing - that if nigel farage was going to stand they would be doing well. that if nigel farage was going to. stand they would be doing well and they are _ stand they would be doing well and

they are doing _ stand they would be doing well and they are doing that. _ stand they would be doing well and they are doing that. one _ stand they would be doing well and they are doing that. one is - stand they would be doing well and they are doing that. one is said, i stand they would be doing well and they are doing that. one is said, ifi they are doing that. one is said, if you vote _ they are doing that. one is said, if you vote for— they are doing that. one is said, if you vote for nigel _ they are doing that. one is said, if you vote for nigel farage, - they are doing that. one is said, if you vote for nigel farage, you - they are doing that. one is said, if you vote for nigel farage, you getj you vote for nigel farage, you get keir starmer, _ you vote for nigel farage, you get keir starmer, and _ you vote for nigel farage, you get keir starmer, and one _ you vote for nigel farage, you get keir starmer, and one has- you vote for nigel farage, you get keir starmer, and one has noted i you vote for nigel farage, you get. keir starmer, and one has noted the mighty— keir starmer, and one has noted the mighty machine _ keir starmer, and one has noted the mighty machine of— keir starmer, and one has noted the mighty machine of the _ keir starmer, and one has noted the mighty machine of the conservative i mighty machine of the conservative headquarters— mighty machine of the conservative headquarters sending _ mighty machine of the conservative headquarters sending out _ mighty machine of the conservative headquarters sending out mail- mighty machine of the conservative i headquarters sending out mail shots that are _ headquarters sending out mail shots that are basically _ headquarters sending out mail shots that are basically saying, _ headquarters sending out mail shots that are basically saying, vote - headquarters sending out mail shots that are basically saying, vote for. that are basically saying, vote for nigel— that are basically saying, vote for nigel farage, _ that are basically saying, vote for nigel farage, get _ that are basically saying, vote for nigel farage, get keir— that are basically saying, vote for nigel farage, get keir starmer. i that are basically saying, vote for| nigel farage, get keir starmer. if nigel farage, get keir starmer. it” ni-el nigel farage, get keir starmer. nigel farage, get keir starmer. nigel farage wins, and even if nigel farage, get keir starmer.m nigel farage wins, and even if he doesn't, what pressure when he put on the conservatives and also on a labour government if that happens? not much. firstly, the reform uk voter— not much. firstly, the reform uk voter does— not much. firstly, the reform uk voter does not— not much. firstly, the reform uk voter does not eat _ not much. firstly, the reform uk voter does not eat into _ not much. firstly, the reform uk voter does not eat into the - not much. firstly, the reform uk| voter does not eat into the labour vote, _ voter does not eat into the labour vote, because _ voter does not eat into the labour vote, because the _ voter does not eat into the labour vote, because the labour- voter does not eat into the labour vote, because the labour vote - voter does not eat into the labour vote, because the labour vote is. vote, because the labour vote is mainly— vote, because the labour vote is mainly remain— vote, because the labour vote is mainly remain and _ vote, because the labour vote is mainly remain and a _ vote, because the labour vote isi mainly remain and a disillusioned brexiteer— mainly remain and a disillusioned brexiteer vote, _ mainly remain and a disillusioned brexiteer vote, and _ mainly remain and a disillusioned brexiteer vote, and if— mainly remain and a disillusioned brexiteer vote, and if there - mainly remain and a disillusioned brexiteer vote, and if there is- mainly remain and a disillusioned brexiteer vote, and if there is a l brexiteer vote, and if there is a majority— brexiteer vote, and if there is a majority of— brexiteer vote, and if there is a majority of 200, _ brexiteer vote, and if there is a majority of 200, and _ brexiteer vote, and if there is a majority of 200, and a - brexiteer vote, and if there is a majority of 200, and alone - brexiteer vote, and if there is a l majority of 200, and alone nigel farage _ majority of 200, and alone nigel farage who— majority of 200, and alone nigel farage who for— majority of 200, and alone nigel farage who for the _ majority of 200, and alone nigel farage who for the first _ majority of 200, and alone nigel farage who for the first time - majority of 200, and alone nigel farage who for the first time in l majority of 200, and alone nigell farage who for the first time in his life has— farage who for the first time in his life has got— farage who for the first time in his life has got a — farage who for the first time in his life has got a job _ farage who for the first time in his life has got a job to _ farage who for the first time in his life has got a job to do, _ farage who for the first time in his life has got a job to do, i- farage who for the first time in his life has got a job to do, i don't- life has got a job to do, i don't see him. — life has got a job to do, i don't see him. i_ life has got a job to do, idon't see him, i think— life has got a job to do, i don't see him, i think we're - life has got a job to do, i don't see him, i think we're on - life has got a job to do, i don't see him, i think we're on the i life has got a job to do, i don't- see him, i think we're on the verge

of being— see him, i think we're on the verge of being irrelevant, _ see him, i think we're on the verge of being irrelevant, the _ see him, i think we're on the verge of being irrelevant, the politics- of being irrelevant, the politics will change _ of being irrelevant, the politics will change so _ of being irrelevant, the politics will change so fundamentally. i of being irrelevant, the politics. will change so fundamentally. —— of being irrelevant, the politics- will change so fundamentally. —— we on the _ will change so fundamentally. —— we on the verge — will change so fundamentally. —— we on the verge of— will change so fundamentally. —— we on the verge of him _ will change so fundamentally. —— we on the verge of him being _ on the verge of him being irrelevant. _ on the verge of him being irrelevant. [— on the verge of him being irrelevant.— on the verge of him being irrelevant. , ., ., ., irrelevant. i spoke to a former labour cabinet _ irrelevant. i spoke to a former labour cabinet minister - irrelevant. i spoke to a former labour cabinet minister and i irrelevant. i spoke to a former i labour cabinet minister and they said the — labour cabinet minister and they said the precise opposite, they are worried _ said the precise opposite, they are worried that if nigel farage does well, _ worried that if nigel farage does well, if— worried that if nigel farage does well, if he's in parliament, that will take — well, if he's in parliament, that will take the conservative to the right, _ will take the conservative to the right, and — will take the conservative to the right, and the labour party would find it— right, and the labour party would find it difficult on the specific issues — find it difficult on the specific issues of— find it difficult on the specific issues of immigration and the relationship with europe and they would _ relationship with europe and they would not — relationship with europe and they would not be able to do what they would _ would not be able to do what they would like. i would not be able to do what they would like. ~ . , would like. i think that is nonsense. _ would like. i think that is nonsense. that - would like. i think that is nonsense. that would i would like. i think that is i nonsense. that would mean would like. i think that is _ nonsense. that would mean complete irrelevance _ nonsense. that would mean complete irrelevance for — nonsense. that would mean complete irrelevance for the _ nonsense. that would mean complete irrelevance for the conservatives. - irrelevance for the conservatives. it would _ irrelevance for the conservatives. it would not — irrelevance for the conservatives. it would not be _ irrelevance for the conservatives. it would not be in _ irrelevance for the conservatives. it would not be in the _ irrelevance for the conservatives. it would not be in the game. - irrelevance for the conservatives. i it would not be in the game. labour party— it would not be in the game. labour party with _ it would not be in the game. labour party with a — it would not be in the game. labour party with a 200 _ it would not be in the game. labour party with a 200 seat _ it would not be in the game. labour party with a 200 seat majority - it would not be in the game. labour party with a 200 seat majority and i it would not be in the game. labour| party with a 200 seat majority and a tory party _ party with a 200 seat majority and a tory party with — party with a 200 seat majority and a tory party with not _ party with a 200 seat majority and a tory party with not a _ party with a 200 seat majority and a tory party with not a viable - tory party with not a viable candidate _ tory party with not a viable candidate for— tory party with not a viable candidate for power- tory party with not a viable candidate for power is - tory party with not a viable. candidate for power is happy tory party with not a viable - candidate for power is happy days for the _ candidate for power is happy days for the labour— candidate for power is happy days for the labour party. _ candidate for power is happy days for the labour party. i— candidate for power is happy days for the labour party. i do - candidate for power is happy days for the labour party. i do not - candidate for power is happy daysl for the labour party. i do not know who you _ for the labour party. i do not know who you are — for the labour party. i do not know who you are talking _ for the labour party. i do not know who you are talking to _ for the labour party. i do not know who you are talking to but - for the labour party. i do not know who you are talking to but you - for the labour party. i do not knowl who you are talking to but you need hetter— who you are talking to but you need better inform — who you are talking to but you need better inform us! _ who you are talking to but you need better inform us!— the leader of the lib dems has today said sorry for speeding on the m1, he got three points on his licence and he's spoken about his experience as a carer for his severely disabled

sonjohn, having previously also cared for his own mother who died when ed was just 15. one of my biggest fears in life is... i will make this confession. ..what happens to him when i'm gone? and i reflect on what my mother thought, leaving your children early... and i remember, i'd been on a school trip to germany when she was ill, and i took a picture of me and this german girl and she saw the picture of me and this girl. she said to me, "i wonder who you're going to end up with?" and... i worry about who is going to look after him. no one is going to love him and hold him like i and my wife hold him. let's talk to sarah olney, the lib dems treasury spokesperson. thanks forjoining us. when you see your

leader speaking in these terms, how does it affect you? it is leader speaking in these terms, how does it affect you?— does it affect you? it is a hard watch, actually, _ does it affect you? it is a hard watch, actually, obviously - does it affect you? it is a hard i watch, actually, obviously know does it affect you? it is a hard - watch, actually, obviously know him very well and we have worked together in parliament for the last four and we have worked together in parliament for the last four and a half years, he's very energetic and resilient, and to see him talking like that, it is quite difficult because it shows some of the difficulties he has overcome in his life, as a child and also, we had a party political broadcast where he talked about his life with his son who has quite severe additional needs. ., ., ,., , who has quite severe additional needs. ., ., , , needs. one of the reasons why in this election _ needs. one of the reasons why in this election at _ needs. one of the reasons why in this election at the _ needs. one of the reasons why in this election at the lib _ needs. one of the reasons why in this election at the lib dems - needs. one of the reasons why in this election at the lib dems are| this election at the lib dems are promising to make personal care for the elderly and disabled free, similar to the system that operates in scotland, and you want to raise care workers pay as well. you say this will be funded by reversing tax cuts given to big banks, covering the cost, which would be about 2.7 billion, except independent experts say it is going to be way more than that. way more. late

say it is going to be way more than that. way more.— that. way more. we are the only -a that that. way more. we are the only party that is _ that. way more. we are the only party that is coming _ that. way more. we are the only party that is coming forward - that. way more. we are the onlyj party that is coming forward with that. way more. we are the only i party that is coming forward with a serious plan for social care and you can see it is very much informed by ed davey�*s own experience, he wants to make a difference for carers. late to make a difference for carers. we understand that but there's not enough money. late understand that but there's not enough money-— understand that but there's not enou:h mone . ~ , ., ., enough money. we will bring forward our manifesto — enough money. we will bring forward our manifesto in _ enough money. we will bring forward our manifesto in due _ enough money. we will bring forward our manifesto in due course - enough money. we will bring forward our manifesto in due course and - enough money. we will bring forward our manifesto in due course and it i our manifesto in due course and it will be a fully costed manifesto. are you saying you will have more than 2.7 billion? the true cost of reform is much more than the lib dems have stated says one source. people working in social care deserve a proper salary, and we need to be recruiting so many more people into social care in order to be able to deliver the levels of care and the quality of care that people really deserve. we want to make a start on that and look at the social care system. pare start on that and look at the social care system-— start on that and look at the social care system. are you saying the 2.7 billion is like _ care system. are you saying the 2.7 billion is like a _ care system. are you saying the 2.7 billion is like a down _ care system. are you saying the 2.7 billion is like a down payment - care system. are you saying the 2.7 billion is like a down payment and i

billion is like a down payment and they will be more to come? 0r billion is like a down payment and they will be more to come? or you are not answering the question? we need are not answering the question? - need to give confidence to people in their old age. x�*t�*ou need to give confidence to people in their old age-— their old age. you need money to rive their old age. you need money to give confidence _ their old age. you need money to give confidence to _ their old age. you need money to give confidence to people. - their old age. you need money to give confidence to people. we i their old age. you need money to| give confidence to people. we will be briniiin give confidence to people. we will be bringing forward _ give confidence to people. we will be bringing forward our— give confidence to people. we will be bringing forward our manifesto| give confidence to people. we will. be bringing forward our manifesto in due course and it will be fully costed but this is the point, we have got to focus, and i want to say, the other point about social care, if we can fix these problems we can do so much better with the nhs because we speak to hospital managers time and time again, one of their biggest problems is not being able to discharge patients because they cannot find the right social care package, so if we could make a real difference to the way social care is delivered and funded, we could make a real difference to the nhs and we could make a real difference to so many more lives. [30 difference to so many more lives. do the lib dems still want to overturn brexit? irate the lib dems still want to overturn brexit? ~ ., , . ., ., brexit? we have been clear about this, there _ brexit? we have been clear about this. there is _ brexit? we have been clear about this, there is no _ brexit? we have been clear about this, there is no doubt _ brexit? we have been clear about this, there is no doubt we - brexit? we have been clear about this, there is no doubt we have i brexit? we have been clear about i this, there is no doubt we have been the most pro—european party on this issue, since before the referendum, we opposed brexit at every stage,

and now that we have left the eu we need to be pragmatic about what happens, we need to start with building the relationships and getting back the trust that has been lost and damaged between us and our european partners, we want to look at some of those side agreements and the youth mobility schemes, mutual recognition and professional qualifications... i recognition and professional qualifications. . .— recognition and professional qualifications... i will go back to the 2019 lib _ qualifications... i will go back to the 2019 lib dems _ qualifications... i will go back to the 2019 lib dems manifesto, . qualifications... i will go back to the 2019 lib dems manifesto, itj qualifications... i will go back to - the 2019 lib dems manifesto, it was very clear, and we had left... we were about to leave, stop brexit, it says, do you still want to stop brexit? in says, do you still want to stop brexit? ii' ' says, do you still want to stop brexit? ::' ' ., , ., brexit? in 2019 there was an opportunity _ brexit? in 2019 there was an opportunity still _ brexit? in 2019 there was an opportunity still to _ brexit? in 2019 there was an i opportunity still to stop brexit by democratic means. what we are saying now, we are in a different place. you don't want to overturn it? taste you don't want to overturn it? we need to you don't want to overturn it? - need to move back to a closer relationship with europe and we have a four step process and i was talking you through the steps. i want to be clear, and you can say

yes or no, do the lib dems want to overturn brexit? iflo. yes or no, do the lib dems want to overturn brexit?— overturn brexit? no, what we are talkin: overturn brexit? no, what we are talking about _ overturn brexit? no, what we are talking about is _ overturn brexit? no, what we are talking about is rebuilding - overturn brexit? no, what we are talking about is rebuilding the - talking about is rebuilding the relationship, and we cannot go back to where we were. we need to start from where we are now and move forward and we definitely want to move forward to a close relationship with europe and to say ultimately, our ultimate goal is to rejoin the single market. our ultimate goal is to re'oin the single market.�* our ultimate goal is to re'oin the sinile market. ., ., ., , single market. you would have seen the yougov — single market. you would have seen the yougov poll— single market. you would have seen the yougov poll in january _ single market. you would have seen the yougov poll in january where i single market. you would have seen | the yougov poll in january where 51% the yougov poll injanuary where 51% said they would support rejoining the eu and your supporters would like you to be shouting that from the rooftops right now. we like you to be shouting that from the rooftops right now.— like you to be shouting that from the rooftops right now. we have to be pragmatic— the rooftops right now. we have to be pragmatic about _ the rooftops right now. we have to be pragmatic about what _ the rooftops right now. we have to be pragmatic about what is - the rooftops right now. we have to i be pragmatic about what is possible, the conservatives have completely, they have done so much damage to our relationship with europe, it is not as simple to say that we can emit lee step back into the relationship we had before, we need to rebuild the trust we had —— we can immediately step back into the relationship. do

immediately step back into the relationship-— immediately step back into the relationshi -. , ., ,,