voice-over: this is bbc news. we will have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk from paris. i'm stephen sackur. president macron has sent political shock waves through france by calling for a snap parliamentary election, a decision prompted by the european election results disastrous for mr macron�*s centrist movement, a triumph for marine le pen�*s far—right party. my guest today is france's europe minister, jean—noel barrot. now, he's a macron ally, and he knows that the president's extraordinary gamble will have a huge impact, notjust on france but right across europe. the question is, will it backfire?

jean—noel barrot, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. how surprised were you by emmanuel macron�*s pretty extraordinary decision to call a snap election? well, obviously i was surprised, because it's a very unique way to take a democratic decision, when the political situation in a given country is so severe that it basically limits the ability of the country to act for itself. there are very few leaders in this world that would take such a democratic decision in the face of such important choices. "such a democratic decision," you say. many french people,

including people very close to emmanuel macron, would call it an almost crazy gamble. no, a majority of french people support this decision. and the reason is simple — you're never wrong when you hand the power to the people. and with a situation where the majority was too thin to be able to reform in a political situation where, after the european elections or during the european elections, french citizens expressed some anger, some expectations in the polls, there was a need for an answer. and there is no more powerful answer to discontent and to expectations than to give to the people the ability to decide for themselves. you're being very supportive of president macron, but is it not true that your own boss in government, the prime minister,

gabriel attal, advised mr macron that this was not the right thing to do? he even suggested that it would be better if he, mr attal, resigned and therefore took responsibility for the massive election defeat of the centrist parties and thereby signal to the public that there was going to be a political reset. i am not in the discussions between my president and my prime minister. what i want to say is... are you telling me that's not true? i'm telling you that i'm not part of their private discussions. what i'm saying is that the european elections led to disappointing results for pro—european parties, including ours. it was a humiliation, was it not, minister? it was a disappointment. in particular, it was a defeat and a disappointment because we were unable to bring the political debate on the european questions, on the european field. our adversaries, the populists and the nationalists, they were successful in bringing the political

on national questions. and so our responsibility is to hear what it is that the french people exactly said, and what they exactly said is not necessarily that they love the nationalists and the populists. what they said is that there were expectations that they had, there was anger that they had, and this led to the president's decision. do you think president macron gets it, gets it that he is a huge part of the problem that his party and your party and the centrist movement in france now faces? surveys taken at the time of the european voting showed that around half of all french voters regarded this vote as a chance to send a deeply negative message

about their view of macron and your government. of course i think he heard it. this is why he took perhaps one of the most audacious decisions that a leader can take, which is to hand over the power to the people. again, the polls suggest that over 70% of french people have a negative view of macron. your own democratic movement party leader, francois bayrou, has said this. he said just a couple of months ago, "there is a growing lack "of understanding between those in power "and the french people at the grassroots, "a serious rift," he said, "between the people "and our current power structures". do you agree with your own party boss? of course i agree with him. there is a gap, and we've been proposing for a long time that we can change even the modality of the vote. but the party i belong to is the democratic party in france and can only praise a decision when it's

about handing over the power to the people, when it's about trying to... ..or opening a window for the french people to decide of a new majority that would be composed, of course, of the democrats and republicans of this country that say no to the nationalists and populists. you have a fundamental problem, though, which is macron is front and centre of everything that is happening in france right now, including the campaign, which is only going to last a couple of weeks until the first round of voting onjune 30th. mr bayrou has apparently told macron not to get involved in the campaign. he has told people like you inside the party that there must be a, quote, "demacronisation" of yourcampaign. that's not going to be possible, is it? this campaign is not about president macron. it's not about president macron staying or not into power. you tell that to the french people. of course, this...

many of them think it's absolutely their view of macron. no, the question is about the national assembly and it's about building a new majority for the country, based on which a new government will be called to rule. and this is not about whether president macron will be in power or not. after the election, he will remain in his position as president of the french republic. what the question that is being asked is how we want or what we want the national assembly, the parliament, to look like and what we want the government to look like. do we want the nationalists and populists, their crazy ideas that would ruin the country's reputation on the international scene? or do we want a large coalition of moderates, of responsible political leaders that are able,

when they listen to the people, to propose true solutions to what the expectations are? minister, you'vejust said to me that you accept that the european election result was basically a result about french dissatisfaction... i agree. ..at what is happening here at home. but ourfailure... but how on earth... hang on. how on earth in three weeks are you going to turn around that deep dissatisfaction with your government? there is a very deep and profound difference between the european elections. i said that we failed to bring the political debate at the european level on this election. yes. it was a vote on domestic issues and domestic politics, and that'll be even more the case for the national assembly election. no, the very deep and profound difference between these two elections that, by the way, are not asking the same question to the people, but there is a deeper difference.

and this deeper difference is that the european election is an election that was set in advance, that was part of a political cycle. this election is very different. it was not forecast, it was not expected. it was based on a decision by president macron to risk losing some power by handing it over to the french people. so that's a very powerful signal that president macron sent to the french people after he heard the message that the french people sent to him during the european elections. you talk about risk. many talk about this gamble. and one of the gambles macron appears to have made is that he believes he can, over the next couple of weeks, persuade the french people that a vote for your party, his party, the progressive centre, as you call it, is the only vote that will safeguard the french republic.

he believes that all people who believe in the french republic should coalesce together. but that's not happening. what we see, not only on the right but on the left, as well, is that your opponents are determined to deliver a defeat to you. they are not interested in this safeguarding the republic. they are out to get you. what we're seeing is indeed the french political debate being structured in three blocs, one bloc that is dominated by the far—right, which is a nationalist, the national...rassemblement, which is a nationalist party with, again, irresponsible fiscal and international propositions, another bloc that is led by la france insoumise, a far—left party that is clearly responsible for the chaos that has been

happening in the national assembly for the past two years, and the french people knows about it, but that also has shown its anti—semitism and its communitarism over the past few years. see, it seems to me what you are doing... some of the traditional left and the traditional right are not at ease with these views. what president macron has said is that this election was not about him, that, of course, the majority he calls for, for the country, will go beyond the parties that have supported him over the past seven years and will have to take into account the propositions, the views of those that will be willing to participate in a majority that says no to the populists and the nationalists.

yeah. and it seems to me that mr macron�*s tactic, and indeed your tactic in this interview is to try to scare french people. so let's unpick whether actually the people who vote for these parties are as extreme and irresponsible as you would label them. the evidence is that the message, for example, of the national rally party, madame le pen and jordan bardella's party, on immigration is a message that cuts through with many, many french people. she describes migration, immigration, as a national peril. she points to the fact that in 2023, a record number of immigrants arrived in this country and were given residence papers, i think more than 320,000. she says this is not acceptable and many across the spectrum agree with her. agrees with some of the diagnoses she makes, even though they sometimes are not very comfortable with the words she uses. but it doesn't mean that she has any credible solution for what she points

as a problem for the french people. and this is really what the situation is about. mr bardella has been sort of the way... ..during the european election for the french people to express discontent, but he has no solution to offer to assuage this anger and this discontent. but they do, with the greatest respect, they have very specific proposals to reduce immigrant numbers. they talk about tighter border controls. they talk about ensuring that french border security is not jeopardised by schengen or any other eu—wide agreements. they talk about prioritising french nationals injobs and housing. they talk about suspending immigration from non—european countries. these are all specific proposals. and may i say that your party doesn't have the same specific proposals. so first, the solutions they propose,

they contradict our constitution or our international and european commitments. and to me, this is, uh, very, uh, this is unacceptable. many other countries in europe are, as you would put it, uh, challenging the european principle. germany, for example, is limiting schengen freedom of movement, when it comes to poland. the italians have done the same. 0nly look at what hungary... but we also have done, uh, restrictions to mobility because there are circumstances and conditions... exactly. ..under which... so it can be done. the point is, madame le pen... under certain... ..and jordan bardella are determined to do it in a much more systematic way than your government. in a way that contradicts the constitution and our european commitments. and as far as we are concerned, what we have done is to build so far, uh, balanced

and effective solutions at the european level. who would think that national borders are any protection, uh, for the french people, uh, with respect to, uh, immigration... you're telling the french people that national borders are meaningless? no, i'm telling that if you think about migration, if you think about people that are crossing the mediterranean sea in order to seek asylum to europe... ..you have to come to the conclusion that only a european solution for border monitoring and for burden sharing across country is a relevant solution. and that's exactly what we, with the european right, the european left, have built into the pact for on asylum and migration, and migration at the european level. so we care about... we know that... isn't the truth quite simple? that you want to scare the french public, french voters, when it comes to the prospect of madame le pen and her party being in power in the national assembly,

but it's not quite as scary as you would like it to be. for example, the french people can look at italy, they can look at the fact that giorgia meloni and her, as you would put it, far—right party, have been in powerfor some time now, and none of the catastrophes and the extremism that you've talked about are seen currently... no. ..in italy. no. in fact, 500,000 sort of illegal immigrants were, uh, regularised by mrs meloni's party. so maybe those that are, that care a lot about migration. so maybe your... should, should... should look at what happened in italy. ..portrayal of extremists is actually not something that convinces the french people any more. you've been talking about it with this kind of language for so long, the french people are beginning to question whether it's justified. you know, it's not us. look at what happened on the markets after, uh, after they realised that perhaps if this campaign goes wrong, if the election goes

wrong, that there might be a probability for the far—right to get into power. well, the interest rate, interest rates went up. and what this means is higher prices for those that want to access housing. so it's not, it's not us. and if we were not, uh, telling to the french people that, uh, such a populist or nationalist, or populist parties seizing the power would lead to a drop in their purchasing power, that they would lead to a drop or a reduction in the french ability to influence in europe and on the international stage, well, uh, we would not be telling them the truth. and our responsibility is to tell them the truth. you've referred several times to the international stage and again implied that were, as you put it, the far—right to come into power, it would be a disaster for france on the international stage. actually, again, if you look at it, madame le pen in recent times has actually shifted her position somewhat on some key

issues, like ukraine, for example. her party, the national rally, is now clear it supports assistance for ukraine, including military assistance. they rule out french boots on the ground, which macron has suggested might happen. but frankly, most french people don't want to see french boots on the ground. do you mean that she changes opinions all the time? no... i might, i might be able to agree with that. ..i mean that she isn't perhaps the demon that you portray her as. listen, i look at whatjordan bardella, who's portrayed as the prospective prime minister, did, uh, in his vote over the past five years. he did not vote for the sanctions against russia. he did not vote for the resolutions denunciating, uh, the detention and the assassination of alexei navalny. he did not vote for the military support to ukraine.

he did not vote for the support to ukrainian refugees and their children, in the european parliament. so... i'm not sure that deep in his heart he has changed his mind suddenly. if he did, then this is hypocrisy. if he did not, then this is lie, basically. the thing is that the pitch of the right and the further right in france would be to ask whether they, the french public, want more of macron�*s idea, that is ever more power vested in brussels. he wants to see european security integrated. he wants to see a european army. he keeps talking about strategic autonomy from the united states. what evidence is there that french people want more europe, according to the macron vision? the, the first, the president macron does not always want more europe. he wants more europe when europe can help overcome the biggest challenges. so he doesn't want a european

army, at least not in any of the short or the medium term. well, what does he mean by strategic autonomy, then? strategic autonomy is the ability to produce in europe the weapons and the ammunition for our own armies. the european armies depend at 80% on extra—european provision. this is unacceptable. this is, this is, uh, a lack of independence of our ability to make our own geopolitical and geo—strategical choices. so what president macron says is, when we need to produce vaccines, when you need to produce ammunition, when you need to become a leader in al, in quantum, in space, we need the european cooperation between countries. and we need sometimes the commission to play this role of coordination. but there are stuff that needs to be done at the french level.

at the national level. i just want to, i just want to pick up one point you made. you're saying not only would it be a catastrophe if the, as you put it, far—right gains power in france, but you've also suggested if the left bloc wins significant power in france, that would be a catastrophe, too. you may need to think about working with the popular front, the leftist coalition. one point they've made is that to work in any way with a centrist macron party—led government, they would insist on a reversal of the signature pensions reforms, which proved so controversial. and, to many french people, so unpopular. would you and your party and the centrist movement be prepared to make a u—turn on those reforms? again, we are open to the discussion with any political parties, any, uh, political leaders that have a true and authentic respect for the republic and democracy.

and then we get into the topics and the reforms that are necessary for the french people. if we were to go back to the previous pension system, of course, this would also cancel a number of important progresses that were embedded in this reform. for those that that had long careers, for those that worked in tough jobs, those got some advantages from this reform. if we were to scrap the reform all at once, they would lose those advantages. so, should we have discussions on pensions? yes. let's do it. let's have it. we are not always right. some can also, some others than my party can, can also be right. and let's build together something, uh, you know, a platform where we listen to each other and we build a coalition and a common project for the next three years. there's some interesting nuance in what you've just said. but isn't the brutal truth

that if the far—right, led by madame le pen and jordan bardella — if they win control of the national assembly — although macron says he won't quit, he won't resign, his position as president will become untenable? i don't do politic fiction, the fiction politics. this is, uh, a scenario that i think is unlikely to happen because i trust the responsibility, the vision, um, and the citizenship of the french people. and i know that they will be able to see through... you don't know. and that is, i guess, where we have to end. surely you will acknowledge to me, because you don't know what's going to happen in three weeks' time... no. ..and byjuly 7th. surely you have to acknowledge this is the greatest gamble that any french politician has made in living memory.

it is an extraordinary risk—taking exercise. this is the most democratic gesture that probably any political leader, any president, has decided to, to have in, in a number, a large number of decades. in your lifetime. in my lifetime, exactly. jean—noel barrot, thank you forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you. hello there. just starting off with confirmation of probably what you already know — so far this month, it has been cold,

temperatures running about two degrees celsius below average and, i suppose, on thursday — a case in point — we had a lot of cloud around outbreaks of rain and, quite widely, temperatures of around four or five degrees below average for the time of year. one exception, northern scotland, where we had some sunny skies and also temperatures were a bit above average. but otherwise, it was a disappointing day on thursday, thanks to this area of cloud and rain, an area of low pressure — an area of low pressure that you're going to get really quite bored with over the next few days because it will still be on our charts through friday, through saturday, through sunday, and it's still there even into monday. so, we're looking at a stuck weather pattern with loads of showers around. now, looking at the weather picture friday morning, we start off on a mild note. probably a bit of sunshine for eastern areas to start off with, and dry weather. showers get going from the west from the word go and the showers become really extensive through the day, some of them heavy with hail and thunder. more general outbreaks of rain for northern scotland, particularly in the morning, where it's also going to be windy and cold. temperatures around 12 or 13 degrees here.

otherwise, temperatures staying well below average, in any case — around 15 to 18 degrees for most of us. now, through friday evening, there will be some further showers coming and going, particularly across western areas. might have some more general outbreaks of rain here, by the end of friday night and the start of saturday morning. saturday, then, the same area of low pressure is with us. probably something a bit brighterfor a time across western scotland but some heavy rain for eastern scotland. the winds picking up across southern counties of england, with gusts running into the 40s of miles an hour. that's going to make it feel a little on the cool side, as well. and if that weren't enough, through the afternoon, there'll be loads of showers around — again, some of them heavy with hail and thunder. across the board, our temperatures below average forjune. little change, really, through sunday. this time, though, it looks like we could see some heavier bursts of rain working across northern ireland into northern england and scotland. thundery showers developing elsewhere, with some sunny spells in between, so it won't be raining all day across the midlands, wales, east anglia, southern england but the temperatures for most areas continue to run a little below average

for the time of year. however, for a couple of days next week, it looks like temperatures will get closer to average, but it doesn't last long — it turns cooler later in the week, showers never far away.

live from london,

this is bbc news. the g7 agrees a $50 billion loan plan to fund ukraine's defence against russia. the un demands sudan's paramilitaries call off their eight—week siege of el fasher. joe biden says hamas remains "the biggest hang—up" in a ceasefire deal with israel. and — they're finally here — the euros kick off in germany today. a warm welcome to the programme. i'm mark lobel. leaders at the g7 summit in southern italy have agreed to lend ukraine $50 billion, taken from interest made on frozen russian assets, which the prime minister called "game—changing".

but it's still not clear precisely who is doing