and the atomic bombing of nagasaki and what he _ the atomic bombing of nagasaki and what he said was the war is turning not necessarily to the advantage of japan _ not necessarily to the advantage of japan. that is the mood in the conservative party.— conservative party. isabel oakeshott. _ conservative party. isabel oakeshott, what - conservative party. isabel oakeshott, what do - conservative party. isabel oakeshott, what do you l conservative party. isabel- oakeshott, what do you make of conservative party. isabel— oakeshott, what do you make of this defection? reform would love a businessman like this backing their cause. {iii businessman like this backing their cause. . ., , businessman like this backing their cause. .. , , y cause. of course. i listened very carefully to _ cause. of course. i listened very carefully to what _ cause. of course. i listened very carefully to what you _ cause. of course. i listened very carefully to what you said. - cause. of course. i listened very carefully to what you said. i - cause. of course. i listened very | carefully to what you said. i think it's fine _ carefully to what you said. i think it's fine to — carefully to what you said. i think it's fine to change _ carefully to what you said. i think it's fine to change your— carefully to what you said. i think it's fine to change your mind. - carefully to what you said. i think| it's fine to change your mind. the facts _ it's fine to change your mind. the facts change. _ it's fine to change your mind. the facts change, personnel- it's fine to change your mind. the facts change, personnel change l it's fine to change your mind. the| facts change, personnel change at the top _ facts change, personnel change at the top and — facts change, personnel change at the top and so _ facts change, personnel change at the top and so on. _ facts change, personnel change at the top and so on. so— facts change, personnel change at the top and so on. so that's - facts change, personnel change at the top and so on. so that's fine. i the top and so on. so that's fine. but it— the top and so on. so that's fine. but it does— the top and so on. so that's fine. but it does strike _ the top and so on. so that's fine. but it does strike me _ the top and so on. so that's fine. but it does strike me as - the top and so on. so that's fine. but it does strike me as if- the top and so on. so that's fine. but it does strike me as if you i the top and so on. so that's fine. i but it does strike me as if you are a little _ but it does strike me as if you are a little bit — but it does strike me as if you are a little bit all— but it does strike me as if you are a little bit all over— but it does strike me as if you are a little bit all over the _ but it does strike me as if you are a little bit all over the place - but it does strike me as if you are a little bit all over the place on. a little bit all over the place on who you — a little bit all over the place on who you have _ a little bit all over the place on who you have supported. - a little bit all over the place on who you have supported. i- a little bit all over the place on who you have supported. i think there is nobody _ who you have supported. i think there is nobody less _ who you have supported. i think there is nobody less all - who you have supported. i think there is nobody less all over- who you have supported. i think there is nobody less all over the place than me that you will ever... did you support liz truss? i am did you support liz truss? i am clear and _ did you support liz truss? i am clear and direct. _ did you support liz truss? i am clear and direct. did _ did you support liz truss? i am clear and direct. did you - did you support liz truss? i am | clear and direct. did you support liz truss? _ clear and direct. did you support liz truss? i— clear and direct. did you support liz truss? i did _ clear and direct. did you support liz truss? i did and _ clear and direct. did you support liz truss? i did and there - clear and direct. did you support liz truss? i did and there was i clear and direct. did you support liz truss? i did and there was a l liz truss? i did and there was a reason for _ liz truss? i did and there was a reason for that. _ liz truss? i did and there was a reason for that. really - liz truss? i did and there was a reason for that. really radically different from _ reason for that. really radically different from the _ reason for that. really radically different from the labour- reason for that. really radically| different from the labour party, reason for that. really radically i different from the labour party, it really _ different from the labour party, it really is — different from the labour party, it really is li2— different from the labour party, it reall is. . . different from the labour party, it reall is. , , . , ., ., really is. liz truss was going for arowth, really is. liz truss was going for growth. gdp — really is. liz truss was going for growth, gdp growth, _ really is. liz truss was going for growth, gdp growth, and - really is. liz truss was going for growth, gdp growth, and got i really is. liz truss was going for growth, gdp growth, and got it| really is. liz truss was going for i growth, gdp growth, and got it all wrong. i did not support rishi and

the only alternative was liz truss or rishi sunak. i chose what i believe to be the lesser of two evils but she screwed it up and made a mess of it. that's it, that's fine. how many times do we get a political decision wrong? what you are saying is i probably have got it wrong with labour. if i have, god help... i wrong with labour. ifi have, god hel... ., �* wrong with labour. ifi have, god hel... .,�* . ., wrong with labour. ifi have, god hel... j . ., . help... i don't want to lecture you because you _ help... i don't want to lecture you because you are _ help... i don't want to lecture you because you are a _ help... i don't want to lecture you because you are a very _ help... i don't want to lecture you because you are a very successful| because you are a very successful guy _ because you are a very successful guy iti— because you are a very successful cu . �* because you are a very successful ru _ �* ., ., because you are a very successful guy. if i'm naive how did i build a business in _ guy. if i'm naive how did i build a business in a _ guy. if i'm naive how did i build a business in a tough _ guy. if i'm naive how did i build a business in a tough environment| guy. if i'm naive how did i build a i business in a tough environment for 20 years that made 1.5 billion sell out? was i the luckiest guy on earth or did ifight like fury? haifa out? was i the luckiest guy on earth or did i fight like fury?— or did i fight like fury? how much ofthat or did i fight like fury? how much of that was _ or did i fight like fury? how much of that was under _ or did i fight like fury? how much of that was under a _ or did i fight like fury? how much of that was under a labour - of that was under a labour government? _ of that was under a labour government? 0r— of that was under a labour government?— of that was under a labour government? of that was under a labour covernment? ~ , government? or did i fight like fury and make shrewd _ government? or did i fight like fury and make shrewd commercial, - government? or did i fight like fury i and make shrewd commercial, wise decisions? i’m and make shrewd commercial, wise decisions? �* ' :: :: ' . and make shrewd commercial, wise decisions? �* ' :: :: , , , ., decisions? i'm100% sure you did those things- _ decisions? i'm 10096 sure you did those things. but _ decisions? i'm 10096 sure you did those things. but i'm _ decisions? i'm10096 sure you did those things. but i'm a _ decisions? i'm10096 sure you did those things. but i'm a bit - decisions? i'm 10096 sure you did | those things. but i'm a bit worried that there — those things. but i'm a bit worried that there is — those things. but i'm a bit worried that there is a _ those things. but i'm a bit worried that there is a naivety_ those things. but i'm a bit worried that there is a naivety there - those things. but i'm a bit worried that there is a naivety there about| that there is a naivety there about what _ that there is a naivety there about what labour — that there is a naivety there about what labour is _ that there is a naivety there about what labour is really _ that there is a naivety there about what labour is really going - that there is a naivety there about what labour is really going to - that there is a naivety there about what labour is really going to do i what labour is really going to do for business _ what labour is really going to do for business. of— what labour is really going to do for business. of course - what labour is really going to do for business. of course they - what labour is really going to do for business. of course they are| for business. of course they are doing _ for business. of course they are doing att— for business. of course they are doing all of— for business. of course they are doing all of this. _ for business. of course they are doing all of this. they _ for business. of course they are doing all of this. they did - for business. of course they are doing all of this. they did this i doing all of this. they did this back— doing all of this. they did this back in— doing all of this. they did this back in 1997, _ doing all of this. they did this back in 1997, do— doing all of this. they did this back in 1997, do you - doing all of this. they did this i back in 1997, do you remember doing all of this. they did this - back in 1997, do you remember the back in1997, do you remember the prawn— back in1997, do you remember the prawn cocktait— back in 1997, do you remember the prawn cocktail offensive _ back in 1997, do you remember the prawn cocktail offensive when - back in 1997, do you remember the prawn cocktail offensive when they| prawn cocktail offensive when they went around — prawn cocktail offensive when they went around cosying _ prawn cocktail offensive when they went around cosying up _ prawn cocktail offensive when they went around cosying up to -

prawn cocktail offensive when they. went around cosying up to business? i went around cosying up to business? hust— went around cosying up to business? iiust dont— went around cosying up to business? iiust don't really— went around cosying up to business? ijust don't really believe it. - went around cosying up to business? ijust don't really believe it. find - ijust don't really believe it. and that is, ijust don't really believe it. and that is. of— ijust don't really believe it. and that is, of course, _ ijust don't really believe it. and that is, of course, your - ijust don't really believe it. that is, of course, your choice. that's your choice not to believe it. i do believe it and i hope to god i'm not being filled. i don't think i am. the manifesto is full of real positive stuff that i believe in. i'll give you another factor. can i bring injo swinson?i in. i'll give you another factor. can i bring in jo swinson? i 'ust need to make i can i bring in jo swinson? i 'ust need to make this i can i bring in jo swinson? i 'ust need to make this point, h can i bring in jo swinson? ijust need to make this point, sorry. i can i bring in jo swinson? i just l need to make this point, sorry. i commissioned a report nine months ago and that report was to find out what was wrong with britain and to suggest ways of fixing it. it took nine months with experts all over the uk contributing to it. we published that report two or three weeks ago, and when we did a crossover check with the labour manifesto and caudwell�*s strong written the synergy was unbelievable and that was an independent report. what do you think, jo swinson? i am what do you think, jo swinson? i am curious, it what do you think, jo swinson? i am curious. it is — what do you think, jo swinson? i am curious, it is an _ what do you think, jo swinson? i am curious, it is an interesting journey, _ curious, it is an interesting journey, but in particular that sort of ratiohate — journey, but in particular that sort of rationale for supporting liz truss. — of rationale for supporting liz truss, that it was either liz or

richey — truss, that it was either liz or richey its— truss, that it was either liz or richey. it's possible to spot heither— richey. it's possible to spot neither of them. i recognise it wasn't — neither of them. i recognise it wasn't a — neither of them. i recognise it wasn't a great choice between liz truss _ wasn't a great choice between liz truss and — wasn't a great choice between liz truss and rishi sunak, but did that ever cross — truss and rishi sunak, but did that ever cross your mind?— truss and rishi sunak, but did that ever cross your mind? somebody had to and when — ever cross your mind? somebody had to and when liz _ ever cross your mind? somebody had to and when liz talked _ ever cross your mind? somebody had to and when liz talked about - ever cross your mind? somebody had to and when liz talked about gdp - to and when liz talked about gdp growth, that really sparked me. —— rishi sunak. that is what we have to gain in the uk, whatever party is in, we have to grow gdp in order to pay for social services. that's a fact and there is no disputing that. liz truss portrayed that image. when she came in, what did she do? one of the first things she did which i condemned the hell out of, she reduced, or suggested reducing income tax for the high earners from 45, income tax for the high earners from a5, down to a0. i was apoplectic for that. why would you do that? what for? we didn't know she was going to do that. . . ~ for? we didn't know she was going to do that. . , ~ ., . , do that. it was kind of what she was an uint do that. it was kind of what she was arguing for, right? _ do that. it was kind of what she was arguing for, right? it _ do that. it was kind of what she was arguing for, right? it wasn't - arguing for, right? it wasn't entirety— arguing for, right? it wasn't entirely out of step with the political— entirely out of step with the

political philosophies. you entirely out of step with the political philosophies. you want to create wealth _ political philosophies. you want to create wealth and _ political philosophies. you want to create wealth and you _ political philosophies. you want to create wealth and you want - political philosophies. you want to create wealth and you want to - political philosophies. you want to i create wealth and you want to create incentive. what you don't want to do is make ridiculous commercial decisions that have no benefit whatsoever either politically or commercially. reducing 5p for the rich people was never going to attract people into the uk. it was never going to keep people in the uk, and all it was was a political disaster. ~ , ., �* , ., uk, and all it was was a political disaster. ~ , ., �* , . disaster. why don't you become a politician? — disaster. why don't you become a politician? you _ disaster. why don't you become a politician? you are _ disaster. why don't you become a politician? you are obviously - disaster. why don't you become a | politician? you are obviously really into it _ politician? you are obviously really into it. you've made a load of money — into it. you've made a load of money |_ into it. you've made a load of mone . . ., . into it. you've made a load of mone. . ., . into it. you've made a load of| money-_ i money. i am not a politician. i think you'd — money. i am not a politician. i think you'd be _ money. i am not a politician. i think you'd be quite _ money. i am not a politician. i think you'd be quite good. - money. i am not a politician. i think you'd be quite good. i i think you'd be quite good. i absolutely despair of politics, i'm absolutely despair of politics, i'm a commercial animal that wants to put the great back in britain. i want to do everything right for britain and i want britain to look after its poorest people. to do that we have to grow gdp and i do not want to be a politician. i’m we have to grow gdp and i do not want to be a politician.— want to be a politician. i'm glad ou've want to be a politician. i'm glad you've settled _ want to be a politician. i'm glad you've settled that _ want to be a politician. i'm glad you've settled that one - want to be a politician. i'm glad you've settled that one then! i want to be a politician. i'm glad - you've settled that one then! that's not indecisive, _ you've settled that one then! that's not indecisive, is _ you've settled that one then! that's not indecisive, is it? _ you've settled that one then! that's not indecisive, is it? definitely - not indecisive, is it? definitely not. you not indecisive, is it? definitely not- you can — not indecisive, is it? definitely not. you can listen _ not indecisive, is it? definitely not. you can listen to - not indecisive, is it? definitely not. you can listen to a - not indecisive, is it? definitely not. you can listen to a live i not indecisive, is it? definitely i not. you can listen to a live audio version of — not. you can listen to a live audio version of newsnight _ not. you can listen to a live audio version of newsnight as - not. you can listen to a live audio version of newsnight as one i not. you can listen to a live audio version of newsnight as one of i not. you can listen to a live audio | version of newsnight as one of all of the abc election coverage on bbc

sounds, so if you don't want to see our faces you can listen to our voices. head to the sound sap and find the stream, between 5 live sports extra and 6 music i've done it, it is really easy, sounds more completed than i've made it sound —— bbc election coverage. thank you for joining us. thank you for being with us, mr caudwell. we are going to hear more from ron warmington who gave evidence to the post office inquiry today along with his colleague ian henderson. both worked for the independent forensic accountants second sight and that firm played a key role in exposing flaws in the post office's horizon it computer system which, as you know, let the wrongful prosecution is of sub—postmasters. both men were portrayed as one character in itv�*s mr bates vs the post office. i have spent a lot of the past 12 months... yes, come on, bob! ..requesting access to documents that have been challenged. one issue we are looking into relates to

fujitsu's office in bracknell. now, we first requested documents relating to that almost two years ago. and we have still not been provided with those documents. erm, may i respond? we did provide a year's worth of e—mails that second - sight requested. unfortunately, those e—mails that were provided were for the wrong year. ron warmington meet jo swinson, jo swinson meet ron warmington. jo swinson — you were post office minster 2012 — 2015. in the coalition government when your report for second sight which your report for second sight which you were here to do by the post office came out. just tell our audience what you told the public inquiry today about when you realise that things were going wrong? irate that things were going wrong? we first that things were going wrong? - first realised things were going wrong on the prosecution front almost immediately. right away by

september, no later than september 2012. and when i say that i have to qualify that by saying we made it abundantly clear to everyone that my colleagues and i are forensic accountants fraud investigators are not lawyers and any suspicions we had as to the inadequacies of evidence and failure to disclose evidence and failure to disclose evidence that might support the defendants was an opinion of accountants are not lawyers. and therefore one of the first things that we did was to say don't take our word for it, go and check with one of the top firms of criminal law firms. i suggested some names. the general counsel said i will go to, i'd better not name them, the firm that we've always used as i go to prosecution firm. and i said you

must be nuts. you cannot possibly be serious about doing that why would you go to the firm that got you into this mess to mark their own homework? go to one of the top firms and i named a couple of them and the response was, we cannot do that because the board will not tolerate that cost. 50 because the board will not tolerate that cost. ., .,, that cost. so how did the post office treat — that cost. so how did the post office treat you, _ that cost. so how did the post office treat you, how - that cost. so how did the post office treat you, how did i that cost. so how did the post | office treat you, how did paula vennells treat you when you are getting to the truth?— getting to the truth? initially, call me gullible, _ getting to the truth? initially, call me gullible, having i getting to the truth? initially, l call me gullible, having spoken getting to the truth? initially, i call me gullible, having spoken to the very top brass, the chairman and chief executive, and i had said do not harm my firm if you want to whitewash or unless you want to help me get to the truth. i'm going to, i don't need the work, i will reject this job unless you agreed to join us in an unrestricted search for the truth regardless of the consequences. iwas truth regardless of the consequences. i was reassured up

front. absolutely reassured. and we took on the job. but as soon as we started to find stuff, nasty evidence of awful prosecution practices, sitting on top of really poor investigation processes that did not seek the underlying root cause of problems but simply focused on getting the money back and keeping the brand safe and keeping the reputation of the system safe, as soon as we started to see that and say something about it, particularly when the general counsel changed, anyone came in. then the tide turned massively. so much so that i'm no quitter but pretty soon after that i said to my

team i've had enough of this, this is not what we agreed to do and i'm going to pull the team out. jo swinson, you are yet to give evidence. can i ask you did paula vennells lie to you? yes. really? yes. what did she say to you that was a lie?— yes. what did she say to you that was a lie? .,, ., , , was a lie? so obviously during the unfolding of _ was a lie? so obviously during the unfolding of everything that i unfolding of everything that happened in my term as minister i was asking lots of questions and probing. — was asking lots of questions and probing, seeking assurances and being _ probing, seeking assurances and being told about the investigations that they— being told about the investigations that they had undertaken into all of the prosecution is that it happened. and she _ the prosecution is that it happened. and she told me in categorical terms that ho— and she told me in categorical terms that no evidence had been and turned that no evidence had been and turned that had _ that no evidence had been and turned that had shown any of those prosecutions were unsafe in any way. and that _ prosecutions were unsafe in any way. and that if _ prosecutions were unsafe in any way. and that if anything did become discovered in the process of their investigations that would ever give any potential that any conviction might— any potential that any conviction might be — any potential that any conviction might be unsafe that they had an

immediate duty to disclose that and they complied with that duty seriously. i took that as a categorical assurance to my face and also in writing in a letter that i publish — also in writing in a letter that i publish in _ also in writing in a letter that i publish in parliament in march 2015 and we _ publish in parliament in march 2015 and we now know from subsequent court _ and we now know from subsequent court cases — and we now know from subsequent court cases that that was not true. they— court cases that that was not true. they had _ court cases that that was not true. they had not been complying with their disclosure duty as they should have done — their disclosure duty as they should have done. and their disclosure duty as they should have done. �* , ., their disclosure duty as they should have done. �* ,, ., ., ~' their disclosure duty as they should have done. �* i. ., ., ~ . have done. and you looked at the second sight _ have done. and you looked at the second sight interim _ have done. and you looked at the second sight interim report i have done. and you looked at the second sight interim report in i have done. and you looked at the | second sight interim report in 2013 and gave this statement to the house of commons. the post office was proactive in identifying these problems and rectifying those problems so that no sub—postmaster was out of pocket. that is an entirely separate issue from the issues that were actually looked at in the report that had been raised through the jfsa and through second sight. and indeed that has found there are not any system wide issues, or indeed any software issues as such. what, ron warmington, what you want to askjo swinson from her time as

post office minister? mr; to ask jo swinson from her time as post office minister?— to ask jo swinson from her time as post office minister? my first point and i'm post office minister? my first point and i'm deeply _ post office minister? my first point and i'm deeply sympathetic - post office minister? my first point and i'm deeply sympathetic with i post office minister? my first point| and i'm deeply sympathetic with the situation you find yourself in, and you were not the anyone to be fooled. and on the point about being lied to, i rarely call anyone a liar. the only way that what you were told could be the truth in the mind of the person telling it is if she had listened to what we said when we made it clear there was a problem and then that had been blasted right out of her mind by what she must have regarded as superior input. for example from top lawyers and so on. i can only assume to be fair to her that that is what she felt. but in terms of what i'd asked jo swinson simply is i have been an investigator, i'm the oldest quy been an investigator, i'm the oldest guy here so i have been an investigator for many decades. and

dealt with really serious conflict. normally when an investigation report is prepared on the subject of the investigation and in this case they also were paying the piper, the subject of the investigation comes out with a rebuttal report which says these second sight guys are talking absolute nonsense, not a single thing that they've said is right or properly evidenced, normally what would happen is i would get called in by the board or in this case the civil servants or by you, and saying i'm going to give you a rollicking. why have we spent all this money which experts say is rubbish? 50 all this money which experts say is rubbish? , . . , , | rubbish? so why did that happen? i think this is — rubbish? so why did that happen? i think this is a _ rubbish? so why did that happen? i think this is a very _ rubbish? so why did that happen? i think this is a very good _ rubbish? so why did that happen? i think this is a very good question. | think this is a very good question. the final— think this is a very good question. the final report, we saw the report in 2013— the final report, we saw the report in 2013 which was not as categorical about— in 2013 which was not as categorical about the _ in 2013 which was not as categorical about the issue. but the 2015 report

which _ about the issue. but the 2015 report which incidentally i had to fight to have government allow to receive a copy. _ have government allow to receive a copy, the _ have government allow to receive a copy, the advice i was getting is that government should not even receive _ that government should not even receive a — that government should not even receive a copy of the fort. and to me that — receive a copy of the fort. and to me that seems bizarre and we had it agreed _ me that seems bizarre and we had it agreed on _ me that seems bizarre and we had it agreed on select committee recommended that government should receive _ recommended that government should receive a _ recommended that government should receive a copy of the report. that copy— receive a copy of the report. that copy would — receive a copy of the report. that copy would have been received as i was leaving — copy would have been received as i was leaving office, i do not know if my successor was given that report or whatever. my successor was given that report orwhatever. but my successor was given that report or whatever. but the officials in the department ought to have been reading _ the department ought to have been reading that report and i do not understand how that could not have raised _ understand how that could not have raised alarm bells. to me that is one of— raised alarm bells. to me that is one of the — raised alarm bells. to me that is one of the mysteries as why that was not seen _ one of the mysteries as why that was not seen to— one of the mysteries as why that was not seen to be something which needed — not seen to be something which needed to be investigated. and whether— needed to be investigated. and whether as you say... can needed to be investigated. and whether as you say. . .— needed to be investigated. and whether as you say... can i ask you, jo swinson. — whether as you say... can i ask you, jo swinson. do _ whether as you say... can i ask you, jo swinson, do you _ whether as you say... can i ask you, jo swinson, do you think _ whether as you say... can i ask you, jo swinson, do you think maybe i whether as you say... can i ask you, | jo swinson, do you think maybe with hindsight but will you gullible because in 2010 ed davey was doing

the job for you, because in 2010 ed davey was doing thejob for you, he had met alan bates eventually after he was advised to to make sure it was not bad publicity over the scandal. in 201185 the sub postmasters had started legal claims against the post office. in 2013 computer weekly was reporting extensively on the case of lee castleton and jo hamilton, dj fs eight was founded by alan bates and conservative mp james arbuthnot was raising cases in parliament. there was stuff around and it would have been on your radar. �* . . . and it would have been on your radar. �* . , . . , and it would have been on your radar. ~ . , . . , . radar. and it was and i was asking iuestions radar. and it was and i was asking questions and _ radar. and it was and i was asking questions and there _ radar. and it was and i was asking questions and there was - radar. and it was and i was asking questions and there was the i radar. and it was and i was asking l questions and there was the second sight investigation which i felt was very important as a way to get to the truth and which i was very supportive of. i think to be fair i did also put some weight and the fact that the courts have made these decisions. i did recognise as the minister standing and has house of commons is not something that you should do likely to say that these

courtjudgments must be wrong but to me felt that they needed to be proper process to understand. and the other thing that i think is important and the other thing that i think is importantand a the other thing that i think is important and a wider issue government generally is you know, government generally is you know, government will cease to operate if accurate briefings are not given to ministers. there are some very deep issues here about truthful information being provided. clearly i wish i had seen through it and looking back it is with horror that this horrendous miscarriage of justice has unfolded.— this horrendous miscarriage of justice has unfolded. thank you for that. and justice has unfolded. thank you for that- and i— justice has unfolded. thank you for that. and i think _ justice has unfolded. thank you for that. and i think we _ justice has unfolded. thank you for that. and i think we are _ justice has unfolded. thank you for that. and i think we are going i that. and i think we are going to look at the papers. let's see if we can, i do not have an ipad. thank you so much. uk in secret talks over financial turmoil at it giant that could hit benefits and the nhs. the front page of the times newspaper, an attack

threat to savers with a cheque book. and 20 years behind europe on cancer care. and the daily mail, the secret tax rise dossier of labour. and post office in criminal conspiracy, reflecting the evidence. so let's talk about brexit. jo swinson is here and isabel oakeshott is here. it has not been really an issue in this election campaign so far. apart from the snp and that is linked to their independence ambitions. just 30% of voters say it is one of the most important issues facing the country according to research and voters are now more likely to say that they would vote to rejoin the eu than to stay out of it. how do you react to that? i eu than to stay out of it. how do you react to that?— you react to that? i would like to know who _ you react to that? i would like to know who did — you react to that? i would like to know who did the _ you react to that? i would like to know who did the research, i you react to that? i would like to know who did the research, it. you react to that? i would like to know who did the research, it is| you react to that? i would like to | know who did the research, it is a pro—eu believe organisation that did that and pretty favourable towards

the remaining campaign. i also think a lot of these polls were wrong about opinion on brexit before it happened. i think if we restage the referendum not only would it be a traumatic experience for all concerned but i think we would find opinion shifted in the course of that campaign very much as it did last time around.— last time around. there is a well resnected _ last time around. there is a well resnected uk — last time around. there is a well respected uk of _ last time around. there is a well respected uk of tracker - last time around. there is a well respected uk of tracker which i last time around. there is a well. respected uk of tracker which has for sons _ respected uk of tracker which has for sons and asked the question has brexit_ for sons and asked the question has brexit worked or not. that is a different— brexit worked or not. that is a different question. there is a different_ different question. there is a different question. there is a different question. there's also 'oin different question. there's also join a _ different question. there's also join a region and on both of those has brexit— join a region and on both of those has brexit worked or not. that is a different_ has brexit worked or not. that is a different question. there's also 'oin different question. there's also join a _ different question. there's also join a region and on both of those hasn't _ join a region and on both of those hasn't worked going down is it not working _ hasn't worked going down is it not working going up, rejoin going up, stay at _ working going up, rejoin going up, stay at going down. so clearly there has been _ stay at going down. so clearly there has been and people like john curtis are saying _ has been and people like john curtis are saying that opinions are changing. that does not mean that they are _ changing. that does not mean that they are running to the door to have another— they are running to the door to have another referendum and rejoin. but the views— another referendum and rejoin. but the views about whether it is working _ the views about whether it is working is changing. | the views about whether it is working is changing.- the views about whether it is working is changing. i think that is reasonable. _ working is changing. i think that is reasonable, i'm _ working is changing. i think that is reasonable, i'm not— working is changing. i think that is reasonable, i'm not going - working is changing. i think that is

reasonable, i'm not going to - working is changing. i think that is reasonable, i'm not going to sit i reasonable, i'm not going to sit here is a staunch brexiteer and say thus far it has been a fabulous success, it has not been done properly. fih success, it has not been done preperly-_ success, it has not been done ro erl . , , , ., , properly. 0h surprised that the lib dems are not _ properly. 0h surprised that the lib dems are not making _ properly. 0h surprised that the lib dems are not making much - properly. 0h surprised that the lib dems are not making much more. properly. 0h surprised that the lib. dems are not making much more of this in this general election campaign having said we're going to stop brexit in 2019? j campaign having said we're going to stop brexit in 2019?— stop brexit in 2019? i think it's a very different — stop brexit in 2019? i think it's a very different election _ stop brexit in 2019? | think it's a| very different election campaign, stop brexit in 2019? | think it's a i very different election campaign, in 2019 we _ very different election campaign, in 2019 we were — very different election campaign, in 2019 we were still _ very different election campaign, in 2019 we were still in _ very different election campaign, in 2019 we were still in the _ very different election campaign, in 2019 we were still in the europeanl 2019 we were still in the european union _ 2019 we were still in the european union continuing _ 2019 we were still in the european union continuing membership- 2019 we were still in the european union continuing membership wasj 2019 we were still in the european i union continuing membership was an option— union continuing membership was an option and _ union continuing membership was an option and we — union continuing membership was an option and we gave _ union continuing membership was an option and we gave people _ union continuing membership was an option and we gave people a - union continuing membership was an option and we gave people a choice l option and we gave people a choice in that— option and we gave people a choice in that election _ option and we gave people a choice in that election campaign _ option and we gave people a choice in that election campaign and - option and we gave people a choice in that election campaign and said. in that election campaign and said we will— in that election campaign and said we will stand _ in that election campaign and said we will stand for— in that election campaign and said we will stand for this, _ in that election campaign and said we will stand for this, and - in that election campaign and said we will stand for this, and to- in that election campaign and said we will stand for this, and to be i we will stand for this, and to be fair peopte _ we will stand for this, and to be fair people made _ we will stand for this, and to be fair people made their- we will stand for this, and to be fair people made their choice i we will stand for this, and to be i fair people made their choice and i think— fair people made their choice and i think we _ fair people made their choice and i think we recognise _ fair people made their choice and i think we recognise that. _ fair people made their choice and i think we recognise that. since i fair people made their choice and i| think we recognise that. since then we've _ think we recognise that. since then we've had — think we recognise that. since then we've had a — think we recognise that. since then we've had a pandemic— think we recognise that. since then we've had a pandemic that- think we recognise that. since then we've had a pandemic that has- think we recognise that. since then we've had a pandemic that has left| we've had a pandemic that has left the nhs _ we've had a pandemic that has left the nhs in — we've had a pandemic that has left the nhs in difficult _ we've had a pandemic that has left the nhs in difficult state, - we've had a pandemic that has left the nhs in difficult state, we - we've had a pandemic that has left the nhs in difficult state, we have| the nhs in difficult state, we have war in— the nhs in difficult state, we have war in europe _ the nhs in difficult state, we have war in europe with— the nhs in difficult state, we have war in europe with the _ the nhs in difficult state, we have war in europe with the energy- the nhs in difficult state, we have i war in europe with the energy shock and impact — war in europe with the energy shock and impact of— war in europe with the energy shock and impact of the _ war in europe with the energy shock and impact of the cost _ war in europe with the energy shock and impact of the cost of— war in europe with the energy shock and impact of the cost of living i and impact of the cost of living and other— and impact of the cost of living and other issues — and impact of the cost of living and other issues in— and impact of the cost of living and other issues in that _ and impact of the cost of living and other issues in that very— and impact of the cost of living and other issues in that very same i and impact of the cost of living and| other issues in that very same bowl showing _ other issues in that very same bowl showing that — other issues in that very same bowl showing that there _ other issues in that very same bowl showing that there is _ other issues in that very same bowl showing that there is more - showing that there is more positivity _ showing that there is more positivity about _ showing that there is more positivity about the - showing that there is more i positivity about the european showing that there is more - positivity about the european union and the _ positivity about the european union and the need — positivity about the european union and the need also _ positivity about the european union and the need also maybe _ positivity about the european union and the need also maybe one - positivity about the european union and the need also maybe one thing| and the need also maybe one thing after such— and the need also maybe one thing after such a — and the need also maybe one thing after such a divisive _ and the need also maybe one thing after such a divisive set _ and the need also maybe one thing after such a divisive set of- after such a divisive set of discussions _ after such a divisive set of discussions on _ after such a divisive set of discussions on brexit, i after such a divisive set of. discussions on brexit, maybe after such a divisive set of- discussions on brexit, maybe what after such a divisive set of— discussions on brexit, maybe what we can all— discussions on brexit, maybe what we

can all agree — discussions on brexit, maybe what we can all agree on — discussions on brexit, maybe what we can all agree on is _ discussions on brexit, maybe what we can all agree on is its _ discussions on brexit, maybe what we can all agree on is its has _ discussions on brexit, maybe what we can all agree on is its has not - discussions on brexit, maybe what we can all agree on is its has not been i can all agree on is its has not been very wett— can all agree on is its has not been very well done _ can all agree on is its has not been very well done. and _ can all agree on is its has not been very well done. and so _ can all agree on is its has not been very well done. and so not- can all agree on is its has not been very well done. and so not really. very well done. and so not really working — very well done. and so not really working but _ very well done. and so not really working. but equally _ very well done. and so not really working. but equally there - very well done. and so not really working. but equally there is i very well done. and so not really working. but equally there is noi working. but equally there is no appetite — working. but equally there is no appetite as _ working. but equally there is no appetite as you _ working. but equally there is no appetite as you say— working. but equally there is no appetite as you say to _ working. but equally there is no appetite as you say to revisit i working. but equally there is no. appetite as you say to revisit that and so _ appetite as you say to revisit that and so that's— appetite as you say to revisit that and so that's why _ appetite as you say to revisit that and so that's why we're _ appetite as you say to revisit that and so that's why we're focusing i appetite as you say to revisit that l and so that's why we're focusing on things— and so that's why we're focusing on things that — and so that's why we're focusing on things that will— and so that's why we're focusing on things that will make _ and so that's why we're focusing on things that will make lives - and so that's why we're focusing on things that will make lives better i things that will make lives better at such— things that will make lives better at such as — things that will make lives better at such as supporting _ things that will make lives better at such as supporting the - things that will make lives better at such as supporting the nhs i things that will make lives better. at such as supporting the nhs and investing — at such as supporting the nhs and investing in — at such as supporting the nhs and investing in care. _ at such as supporting the nhs and investing in care. i— at such as supporting the nhs and investing in care. i think— at such as supporting the nhs and investing in care. i think that i investing in care. i think that makes — investing in care. i think that makes perfect _ investing in care. i think that makes perfect sense. - investing in care. i think that makes perfect sense. me i investing in care. i think that makes perfect sense. we are out of time, makes perfect sense. we are out of time. thank — makes perfect sense. we are out of time. thank you _ makes perfect sense. we are out of time, thank you for _ makes perfect sense. we are out of time, thank you for being _ makes perfect sense. we are out of time, thank you for being with i makes perfect sense. we are out of time, thank you for being with us. i j time, thank you for being with us. i know that it goes fast! that's it from us. tomorrow i will be in birmingham with a live audience. we will hear from those that work in the nhs and those that use it, and put it all to a panel of politicians trying to win your vote. and you have got one hour now if you have not registered to vote this time, to get yourforming. have a lovely rest of the evening. thank you.