we were going to win the election. iwas campaigning for the labour party. but out campaigning today in wales, will any of it impact the course of the election? also, we'll be speaking to the workers party of britain about their manifesto. and reforming the house of lords. is labour's compulsory retirement age the way to go? joining us today... the chair of the london assembly, conservative andrew boff. labour peer, baroness shami chakrabati. the observer's chief leader writer sonia sodha. and the editor of the spectator, fraser nelson. this is politics live... election 202a. welcome to viewers on bbc two, news channel and bbc iplayer. after a week of campaigning, that debate, the question time debate

with the live audience, putting party leaders through their paces, was obviously quite strenuous for all of them but what about for the panel, did you watch and what was most striking? i panel, did you watch and what was most striking?— panel, did you watch and what was most striking? i did. what struck me was the fact — most striking? i did. what struck me was the fact that _ most striking? i did. what struck me was the fact that rishi _ most striking? i did. what struck me | was the fact that rishi sunak seemed to answer questions... that was the fact that rishi sunak seemed to answer questions. . ._ to answer questions... that is the aim, to answer questions... that is the aim. isn't — to answer questions... that is the aim. isn't it? _ to answer questions. .. that is the aim. isn't it? i — to answer questions... that is the aim, isn't it? i checked _ to answer questions... that is the aim, isn't it? i checked the - to answer questions... that is the | aim, isn't it? i checked the london assembly. — aim, isn't it? i checked the london assembly. i— aim, isn't it? i checked the london assembly, i know _ aim, isn't it? i checked the london assembly, i know that _ aim, isn't it? i checked the london assembly, i know that people - aim, isn't it? i checked the london assembly, i know that people in i assembly, i know that people in front of me tried their best not to answer the question but fiona bruce did well on holding people to account but keir starmer, his session was a masterclass in how not to answer a question because i'm not any clearer what he thinks, for example whether or notjeremy corbyn would have been a great leader. shami, what was most striking for you? i shami, what was most striking for ou? . ., , , shami, what was most striking for ou? _, , , you? i completely disagree, i thou~ht you? i completely disagree, i thought rishi _ you? i completely disagree, i thought rishi sunak - you? i completely disagree, i thought rishi sunak in - you? i completely disagree, i. thought rishi sunak in contrast you? i completely disagree, i- thought rishi sunak in contrast with the other_ thought rishi sunak in contrast with the other three, seemed so close at

having _ the other three, seemed so close at having to _ the other three, seemed so close at having to face the audience. there are challenges to him were almost impertinent, at times he was angry, not even _ impertinent, at times he was angry, not even tetchy richey as we have heard _ not even tetchy richey as we have heard before. the other three did their_ heard before. the other three did their best — heard before. the other three did their best to approach the audience with humility, including in the more awkward _ with humility, including in the more awkward bits. as to the story of the day, shock — awkward bits. as to the story of the day, shock horror, hold the front page. _ day, shock horror, hold the front page. did — day, shock horror, hold the front page, did you know that keir starmer actually— page, did you know that keir starmer actually served in the shadow cabinet — actually served in the shadow cabinet ofjeremy corbyn and served with him _ cabinet ofjeremy corbyn and served with him into general elections as if that— with him into general elections as if that is— with him into general elections as if that is a — with him into general elections as if that is a revelation? the question _ if that is a revelation? the question was _ if that is a revelation? the question was different - if that is a revelation? tie: question was different but if that is a revelation? tte: question was different but before if that is a revelation? tt2 question was different but before i come to the other guests lets get a flavour of some questions put to the leaders especially on the issue of trust. ~ �* ., leaders especially on the issue of trust. ~ �* . , trust. we've had five prime ministers _ trust. we've had five prime ministers in _ trust. we've had five prime ministers in the _ trust. we've had five prime ministers in the last - trust. we've had five prime ministers in the last seven | trust. we've had five prime - ministers in the last seven years and one — ministers in the last seven years and one of— ministers in the last seven years and one of them _ ministers in the last seven years and one of them managed - ministers in the last seven years and one of them managed to - ministers in the last seven yearsl and one of them managed to last ministers in the last seven years - and one of them managed to last for six weeks _ and one of them managed to last for six weeks as— and one of them managed to last for six weeks as a _ and one of them managed to last for six weeks. as a result, _ and one of them managed to last for six weeks. as a result, i— and one of them managed to last for six weeks. as a result, i think- and one of them managed to last for six weeks. as a result, i think we - six weeks. as a result, i think we are something _ six weeks. as a result, i think we are something of— six weeks. as a result, i think we are something of an _ six weeks. as a result, i think wei are something of an international iaughing — are something of an international iaughing stook— are something of an international laughing stock and _ are something of an international laughing stock and i— are something of an international laughing stock and i am - are something of an international laughing stock and i am asking i are something of an international laughing stock and i am asking if| laughing stock and i am asking if you would — laughing stock and i am asking if you would confess _ laughing stock and i am asking if you would confess to _ laughing stock and i am asking if you would confess to us - laughing stock and i am asking if you would confess to us tonighti

laughing stock and i am asking if- you would confess to us tonight even 'ust you would confess to us tonight even just a _ you would confess to us tonight even just a small— you would confess to us tonight even just a small amount _ you would confess to us tonight even just a small amount of— you would confess to us tonight even i just a small amount of embarrassment to be just a small amount of embarrassment to he ieading _ just a small amount of embarrassment to he ieading the — just a small amount of embarrassment to be leading the conservative - just a small amount of embarrassment to be leading the conservative party. to be leading the conservative party into this _ to be leading the conservative party into this election _ to be leading the conservative party into this election campaign? - to be leading the conservative party into this election campaign? itilting" i to be leading the conservative party into this election campaign?- into this election campaign? when i first not into this election campaign? when i first got this — into this election campaign? when i first got this job _ into this election campaign? when i first got this job i _ into this election campaign? when i first got this job i stood _ into this election campaign? when i first got this job i stood on - into this election campaign? when i first got this job i stood on the - first got this job i stood on the steps of downing street and spoke to you as prime ministerfor the steps of downing street and spoke to you as prime minister for the first time and i acknowledge that. i said very clearly mistakes have been made and that's why i was standing there in front of you. you and that's why i was standing there in front of you-— in front of you. you said he would make a great _ in front of you. you said he would make a great prime _ in front of you. you said he would make a great prime minister, - in front of you. you said he would make a great prime minister, did | in front of you. you said he would - make a great prime minister, did you mean _ make a great prime minister, did you mean it— make a great prime minister, did you mean it did _ make a great prime minister, did you mean it did you have your fingers crossed _ mean it did you have your fingers crossed behind your back? | mean it did you have your fingers crossed behind your back? i did not think we would _ crossed behind your back? i did not think we would the _ crossed behind your back? i did not think we would the election. - crossed behind your back? i did not think we would the election. but i think we would the election. but irrespective _ think we would the election. but irrespective of that you said that, did you _ irrespective of that you said that, did you mean it? it irrespective of that you said that, did you mean it?— did you mean it? it was not a question _ did you mean it? it was not a question that _ did you mean it? it was not a question that arose - did you mean it? it was not a question that arose because | did you mean it? it was not a| question that arose because i did you mean it? it was not a i question that arose because i did not think we would win the election. we all heard you say he would be a great _ we all heard you say he would be a great prime — we all heard you say he would be a great prime minister, that was your way great prime minister, that was your wav of— great prime minister, that was your way of telling people to vote for him _ way of telling people to vote for him i_ way of telling people to vote for him. ., , way of telling people to vote for him. ., him. i was campaigning for the labour party — him. i was campaigning for the labour party and _ him. i was campaigning for the labour party and i'm _ him. i was campaigning for the labour party and i'm glad i i him. i was campaigning for the | labour party and i'm glad i did. him. i was campaigning for the i labour party and i'm glad i did. but ou labour party and i'm glad i did. but you campaign forjeremy corbyn to be prime _ you campaign forjeremy corbyn to be prime minister. | you campaign forjeremy corbyn to be prime minister.— prime minister. i was a labour party olitician. prime minister. i was a labour party politician- in — prime minister. i was a labour party politician. in 2010 _ prime minister. i was a labour party politician. in 2010 your _ prime minister. i was a labour party politician. in 2010 your party - politician. in 2010 your party promised — politician. in 2010 your party promised to _ politician. in 2010 your party promised to abolish -

politician. in 2010 your party promised to abolish tuition l politician. in 2010 your party i promised to abolish tuition fees, the centre — promised to abolish tuition fees, the centre of— promised to abolish tuition fees, the centre of your— promised to abolish tuition fees, the centre of your campaign i promised to abolish tuition fees, the centre of your campaign and | promised to abolish tuition fees, i the centre of your campaign and a student— the centre of your campaign and a student iike — the centre of your campaign and a student like myself— the centre of your campaign and a student like myself are _ the centre of your campaign and a student like myself are burdenedl student like myself are burdened with hundreds _ student like myself are burdened with hundreds of _ student like myself are burdened with hundreds of thousands i student like myself are burdened with hundreds of thousands of. student like myself are burdened i with hundreds of thousands of pounds of student— with hundreds of thousands of pounds of student debt — with hundreds of thousands of pounds of student debt so _ with hundreds of thousands of pounds of student debt so how— with hundreds of thousands of pounds of student debt so how can _ with hundreds of thousands of pounds of student debt so how can my- of student debt so how can my generation— of student debt so how can my generation trust— of student debt so how can my generation trust you? - of student debt so how can my generation trust you? i - of student debt so how can my generation trust you? i understand for our generation trust you? i understand for your generation _ generation trust you? i understand for your generation lost _ generation trust you? i understand for your generation lost faith i generation trust you? i understand for your generation lost faith in i for your generation lost faith in us. it was a difficult government to be in. i explained we had choices, whether we came out of it and caught from the sidelines or try to get in and win things, we did not get everything and we lost that one. given the scandal in drama from the snp how— given the scandal in drama from the snp how would _ given the scandal in drama from the snp how would you _ given the scandal in drama from the snp how would you differ— given the scandal in drama from the snp how would you differ from i given the scandal in drama from the snp how would you differ from your| snp how would you differ from your predecessors? _ snp how would you differ from your predecessors? it's— snp how would you differ from your predecessors?— predecessors? it's been a turbulent time and i would _ predecessors? it's been a turbulent time and i would be _ predecessors? it's been a turbulent time and i would be the _ predecessors? it's been a turbulent time and i would be the first - predecessors? it's been a turbulent time and i would be the first to i time and i would be the first to accept that. my party has asked me to lead it through this election campaign and beyond the 2026 parliamentary elections to essentially do two things, first double rebuild trust between the and the snp. and i've always worked through my political life to build trust and confidence with the electorate who have chosen me. secondly to provide the direction

necessary in the scottish government to change lives. john necessary in the scottish government to change lives-— to change lives. john swinney there, the leader of— to change lives. john swinney there, the leader of the _ to change lives. john swinney there, the leader of the snp _ to change lives. john swinney there, the leader of the snp but _ to change lives. john swinney there, the leader of the snp but on - to change lives. john swinney there, the leader of the snp but on the i the leader of the snp but on the question of trust which came up repeatedly, referencing tuition fees, that promise to abolish them by the lib dems.— fees, that promise to abolish them by the lib dems. what did you make ofthat by the lib dems. what did you make of that broadly? _ by the lib dems. what did you make of that broadly? i _ by the lib dems. what did you make of that broadly? i was _ by the lib dems. what did you make of that broadly? i was struck- by the lib dems. what did you make of that broadly? i was struck by i of that broadly? i was struck by rishi sunak and john swinney got the question, you made a mess of your party and how can we trust you to run the country? rishi sunak said i am just a boy asking for your love. that does not wash because this is the fundamental problem with the campaign, the conservative government, the party in 2019 asked for the vote and voters are entitled to passjudgment for the vote and voters are entitled to pass judgment on all of them and i don't think this works and john swinney did not have an answer for the fact his party is in bedlam so how is that a manifesto for independence? you could see it almost here in their silence, being unconvinced by the answers. the

national centre for social centre reported last year sonia that 45% of voters would never trust governments of any party to vote the needs of their party about the needs of the people. is that dispiriting and is it reflected in the debate last night? qt it reflected in the debate last niuht? .., , , it reflected in the debate last niuht? , , .,, , night? of course it is to see levels of trust in politics _ night? of course it is to see levels of trust in politics that _ night? of course it is to see levels of trust in politics that low - night? of course it is to see levels of trust in politics that low and i i of trust in politics that low and i think— of trust in politics that low and i think it — of trust in politics that low and i think it reflects a general anti—politics mode and a lack of enthusiasm for politics. i think it is concerning but not surprising after— is concerning but not surprising after the — is concerning but not surprising after the 14 years we have had. 0ne elephant— after the 14 years we have had. 0ne elephant in— after the 14 years we have had. 0ne elephant in the room when it comes to trust— elephant in the room when it comes to trust most people were promised through— to trust most people were promised through brexit that things would improve — through brexit that things would improve stock that has not happened and i improve stock that has not happened and i think— improve stock that has not happened and i think politicians are being held _ and i think politicians are being held accountable but a concern i have _ held accountable but a concern i have is — held accountable but a concern i have is if— held accountable but a concern i have is if you listen to an economist like pauljohnson, he says both parties— economist like pauljohnson, he says both parties are engaged in a conspiracy of silence about some tough _ conspiracy of silence about some tough fiscal trade—offs that the

country— tough fiscal trade—offs that the country faces and a concern i have is that— country faces and a concern i have is that i_ country faces and a concern i have is that i think it's right. you look 20 or 30 years hence they are even tougher— 20 or 30 years hence they are even tougher as — 20 or 30 years hence they are even tougher as a — 20 or 30 years hence they are even tougher as a result of an ageing population and changing demographics and perhaps a general election campaign is not the time but it does not feel— campaign is not the time but it does not feel politicians are fronting up about _ not feel politicians are fronting up about the — not feel politicians are fronting up about the trade—offs. i think people snip that— about the trade—offs. i think people snip that out and returns from politics — snip that out and returns from politics. people make promises but the question is like, can you keep them? _ the question is like, can you keep them? , ., ,, . . them? the question shami about the comment from _ them? the question shami about the comment from keir _ them? the question shami about the comment from keir starmer - them? the question shami about the comment from keir starmer the i them? the question shami about the i comment from keir starmer the jeremy corbyn in comment from keir starmer thejeremy corbyn in 2019 would make a great prime minister, do we trust him and dessie being honest? he cannot answer that question straight? t answer that question straight? i think maybe the mistake was a answer that question straight? t think maybe the mistake was a couple of weeks back with the gratuitous jibe at the tory manifesto. i think it's time not for the putative minister as i hope keir starmer is,

not to be constantly defining himself in opposition or in sympathy with leaders of the party and go forward on his programme and his slogan for change. not change from back then. the current candidate, the independent candidate for islington north but defining himself as to where the country is now on what it needs.— what it needs. there is one fundamental, _ what it needs. there is one fundamental, politicians i what it needs. there is one | fundamental, politicians are what it needs. there is one - fundamental, politicians are people, people _ fundamental, politicians are people, people who stand for office and people — people who stand for office and people make mistake but what annoys the public— people make mistake but what annoys the public more than anything is when _ the public more than anything is when you — the public more than anything is when you have made a mistake you do not own _ when you have made a mistake you do not own up— when you have made a mistake you do not own up to — when you have made a mistake you do not own up to it and you do not say actually, _ not own up to it and you do not say actually, what keir starmer could have _ actually, what keir starmer could have said — actually, what keir starmer could have said this i made a judgment at the time _ have said this i made a judgment at the time aboutjeremy have said this i made a judgment at the time about jeremy corbyn and it was wrong — the time about jeremy corbyn and it was wrong. he could have said that. rishi _ was wrong. he could have said that. rishi sunak— was wrong. he could have said that. rishi sunak has apologised. let shami rishi sunak has apologised. l2t shami answer. and he said granted under pressure, the so—called upward moment was about the stuff are not policy which he did quite well. but it is about trust. i _

policy which he did quite well. but it is about trust. i get _ policy which he did quite well. but it is about trust. i get it. - policy which he did quite well. but it is about trust. i get it. he i policy which he did quite well. but it is about trust. i get it. he said l it is about trust. i get it. he said erha -s it is about trust. i get it. he said perhaps under— it is about trust. i get it. he said perhaps under a _ it is about trust. i get it. he said perhaps under a little _ it is about trust. i get it. he said perhaps under a little bit - it is about trust. i get it. he said perhaps under a little bit of- perhaps under a little bit of pressure he would have been a better prime minister than borisjohnson prime minister than boris johnson which prime minister than borisjohnson which is frankly faint praise but i agree there probably would not have been a corrupt vip lane for pandemic contracts on partying and number ten downing street for the elderly died alone in care homes.— downing street for the elderly died alone in care homes. great news for the jewish population! _ alone in care homes. great news for the jewish population! i— alone in care homes. great news for the jewish population! i want - alone in care homes. great news for the jewish population! i want to i the jewish population! i want to talk to you _ the jewish population! i want to talk to you about _ the jewish population! i want to talk to you about rishi - the jewish population! i want to talk to you about rishi sunaki the jewish population! i want to l talk to you about rishi sunak and his response in terms of the gambling commission, looking into a couple of conservative candidates but let's back up with that because he said he was angry about that in the debate last night. jessica parker political correspondent is travelling with the prime minister so what is the mood?— travelling with the prime minister so what is the mood? good afternoon. i am on so what is the mood? good afternoon. i am on the — so what is the mood? good afternoon. lam on the bus— so what is the mood? good afternoon. i am on the bus with _ so what is the mood? good afternoon. i am on the bus with the _ so what is the mood? good afternoon. i am on the bus with the prime - i am on the bus with the prime minister in north wales, he is not always in the campaign bus but we are bored with him and might get a

little more of a chat with him later but in terms of the mood he spoke to an audience of i'm told activists and supporters so they were very supportive of him. in terms of what he was talking about, the conservatives like to lay into the labour party record in wales, there was quite a lot of that from the prime minister and other speakers. he was making these interesting comments about saying he understood that voters as people are frustrated with the conservatives and with him, acknowledging mistakes have been made. but also he repeated this line saying that people should not sleepwalk into the selection and let the labour party once into downing street, i think again they are trying to grab voters attention with these kinds of narratives which plays into the warnings we heard from the conservative party over the last week about what they say could be a labour party supermajority.

there is criticism of this tactic as to whether it is a good idea or not but it is something he repeated today in north wales. had but it is something he repeated today in north wales. had there been any developments _ today in north wales. had there been any developments in _ today in north wales. had there been any developments in any _ today in north wales. had there been any developments in any more - any developments in any more response to the gambling watchdog looking into a second conservative... looking into a second conservative. . .- looking into a second conservative. . . looking into a second conservative... �* , conservative... i'm so sorry, there was a little — conservative... i'm so sorry, there was a little bit _ conservative... i'm so sorry, there was a little bit of _ conservative... i'm so sorry, there was a little bit of break _ conservative... i'm so sorry, there was a little bit of break up - conservative... i'm so sorry, there was a little bit of break up on - conservative... i'm so sorry, there was a little bit of break up on the i was a little bit of break up on the line. some valiant attempts by journalist colleagues including from the bbc and others to try and ask the bbc and others to try and ask the prime ministerfor the bbc and others to try and ask the prime minister for some the bbc and others to try and ask the prime ministerfor some more detail in terms of these betting allegations so he was asked when he found out about these allegations and he was asked if in principle by scarring ease, if he was comfortable with conservative candidates placing bets on the date of the general election and he was asked again about pressure to suspend this candidates. he really did stick to his script, the prime minister, did not want to be drawn into the details and repeated he was angry

about the allegations and that there are serious matters being investigated but no doubt journalists will keep having a go to see if they can get more detail from rishi sunak as will i, given that i am on the bus with him at the moment. am on the bus with him at the moment-— am on the bus with him at the moment. g ,, ., ~ moment. good luck, jessica, thank ou so moment. good luck, jessica, thank you so much- _ moment. good luck, jessica, thank you so much. we _ moment. good luck, jessica, thank you so much. we can _ moment. good luck, jessica, thank you so much. we can see - moment. good luck, jessica, thank you so much. we can see rishi - moment. good luck, jessica, thank. you so much. we can see rishi sunak campaigning today and jessica, goodbye. should the tory party withdraw support from these candidates, that is the question asked? we know that one of them, craig williams, placed a bet on the timing of the general election a few days before it was announced and he said it was an error ofjudgment. should he be suspended? i do not know the details _ should he be suspended? i do not know the details enough - should he be suspended? i do not know the details enough and - should he be suspended? i do not know the details enough and if. should he be suspended? i do not know the details enough and if it i know the details enough and if it was he had inside information, we do not know that, if he had inside information and placed a bet, he should be suspended. hat information and placed a bet, he should be suspended.— information and placed a bet, he should be suspended. not on the basis of an _ should be suspended. not on the basis of an error— should be suspended. not on the basis of an error of _ should be suspended. not on the basis of an error ofjudgment - should be suspended. not on the basis of an error ofjudgment in l basis of an error ofjudgment in placing the bet in the first

instance. i placing the bet in the first instance-— placing the bet in the first instance. i think it's pretty stu - id, instance. i think it's pretty stupid, really. _ instance. i think it's pretty stupid, really. one- instance. i think it's pretty stupid, really. one of- instance. i think it's pretty stupid, really. one of the| instance. i think it's pretty - stupid, really. one of the things we've got to do, whoever gets elected, members of parliament in the next parliament, we need to beat them over the head with the nolan principles. fin them over the head with the nolan princi - les. . them over the head with the nolan princiles. ., , , , ., principles. on that basis, he should have been suspended. _ principles. on that basis, he should have been suspended. we - principles. on that basis, he should have been suspended. we have - principles. on that basis, he should. have been suspended. we have been talking _ have been suspended. we have been talking about trust, who served in whose _ talking about trust, who served in whose cabinet.— talking about trust, who served in whose cabinet. there's also national 'ustice. it whose cabinet. there's also national justice. it is normal— whose cabinet. there's also national justice. it is normal practice - whose cabinet. there's also national justice. it is normal practice when i justice. it is normal practice when there is a serious _ justice. it is normal practice when there is a serious allegation - justice. it is normal practice when there is a serious allegation of. there is a serious allegation of this kind — there is a serious allegation of this kind even in a normal employment scenario to suspend someone — employment scenario to suspend someone pending that... he�*s employment scenario to suspend someone pending that... he's not auoin to someone pending that... he's not going to be _ someone pending that... he's not going to be an _ someone pending that... he's not going to be an mp _ someone pending that... he's not going to be an mp if _ someone pending that... he's not going to be an mp if he _ someone pending that... he's not going to be an mp if he doesn't i going to be an mp if he doesn't stand _ going to be an mp if he doesn't stand for— going to be an mp if he doesn't stand for election. _ going to be an mp if he doesn't stand for election. we - going to be an mp if he doesn't stand for election.— going to be an mp if he doesn't stand for election. we will all have to resin stand for election. we will all have to resign over— stand for election. we will all have to resign over everything. -

stand for election. we will all have j to resign over everything. andrew, andrew, to resign over everything. andrew, andrew. parties — to resign over everything. andrew, andrew, parties to _ to resign over everything. andrew, andrew, parties to take _ to resign over everything. andrew, andrew, parties to take decisions, | andrew, parties to take decisions, they may be right or wrong decisions what they do with candidates and that decision has not been taken. i think it's enough to say he is furious. i think it's enough to say he is furious. ., ., ., , ,., furious. i thought what was so strikin: furious. i thought what was so striking about _ furious. i thought what was so striking about his _ furious. i thought what was so striking about his answer- furious. i thought what was so striking about his answer was| furious. i thought what was so - striking about his answer was that he said _ striking about his answer was that he said he — striking about his answer was that he said he was— striking about his answer was that he said he was angry— striking about his answer was that he said he was angry and - striking about his answer was that he said he was angry and it- striking about his answer was that| he said he was angry and it almost sounded _ he said he was angry and it almost sounded like — he said he was angry and it almost sounded like he _ he said he was angry and it almost sounded like he thought _ he said he was angry and it almost sounded like he thought of- he said he was angry and it almost| sounded like he thought of himself as a victim — sounded like he thought of himself as a victim in— sounded like he thought of himself as a victim in all— sounded like he thought of himself as a victim in all of _ sounded like he thought of himself as a victim in all of this. _ sounded like he thought of himself as a victim in all of this. some - sounded like he thought of himself as a victim in all of this. some of. as a victim in all of this. some of these _ as a victim in all of this. some of these people _ as a victim in all of this. some of these people are _ as a victim in all of this. some of these people are people - as a victim in all of this. some of these people are people he - as a victim in all of this. some of these people are people he has. these people are people he has chosen— these people are people he has chosen to — these people are people he has chosen to surround _ these people are people he has chosen to surround himself- these people are people he has| chosen to surround himself with these people are people he has- chosen to surround himself with the so there _ chosen to surround himself with the so there are — chosen to surround himself with the so there are questions _ chosen to surround himself with the so there are questions about - so there are questions about judgment _ so there are questions about judgment from _ so there are questions about judgment from him. - so there are questions about judgment from him.- so there are questions about judgment from him. so there are questions about 'udrment from him. ~ ., ., judgment from him. we are looking at the deca of judgment from him. we are looking at the decay of the _ judgment from him. we are looking at the decay of the conservative - judgment from him. we are looking at the decay of the conservative party. . the decay of the conservative party. there cannot be that many people and it's staggering to think he had a round of people willing to bet but nobody to advise him on the date in the first place and somebody should have said july is a disaster, he lacked people to tell him that but he had no end are people going down the bookies.

let mejust... it is let me just. .. it is not a let mejust... it is not a laughing matter. let mejust... it is not a laughing matter- let _ let mejust... it is not a laughing matter. let me _ let mejust... it is not a laughing matter. let me move _ let mejust... it is not a laughing matter. let me move on - let mejust... it is not a laughing matter. let me move on briefly l let me just. .. it is not a laughing i matter. let me move on briefly into this headline _ matter. let me move on briefly into this headline in _ matter. let me move on briefly into this headline in the _ matter. let me move on briefly into this headline in the garden. -- - matter. let me move on briefly into this headline in the garden. -- the l this headline in the garden. —— the guardian. chris skidmore was the conservative net zero tsar. is it a surprise? i conservative net zero tsar. is it a surrise? ., ., , surprise? i had to be reminded he was a member— surprise? i had to be reminded he was a member of— surprise? i had to be reminded he was a member of the _ surprise? i had to be reminded he| was a member of the conservative party. he spent the last few years actually arguing against us especially with our position in london where he decided to take a different position from the rest of us so i'm not in the least people change their minds.— us so i'm not in the least people change their minds. chris skidmore is a ureen change their minds. chris skidmore is a green lobbyist _ change their minds. chris skidmore is a green lobbyist right _ change their minds. chris skidmore is a green lobbyist right now, - change their minds. chris skidmore is a green lobbyist right now, i - is a green lobbyist right now, i think— is a green lobbyist right now, i think laws— is a green lobbyist right now, i think laws should be passed so minister— think laws should be passed so minister should take on the environmental brief and should be banned _ environmental brief and should be banned -- — environmental brief and should be banned —— because ministers who take on the _ banned —— because ministers who take on the environment will brief you should _ on the environment will brief you should be — on the environment will brief you should be banned. this is about

carrying — should be banned. this is about carrying history graduate who has been _ carrying history graduate who has been transformed into a very lucrative _ been transformed into a very lucrative career and here i think this is— lucrative career and here i think this is what— lucrative career and here i think this is what places... is lucrative career and here i think this is what places. . ._ this is what places... is here professor — this is what places... is here professor of _ this is what places... is here professor of ecology, - this is what places... is here l professor of ecology, lucrative career? . , professor of ecology, lucrative career? ., , ., , , career? that is on the sidelines. he abandoned — career? that is on the sidelines. he abandoned his _ career? that is on the sidelines. he abandoned his constituents... - career? that is on the sidelines. he abandoned his constituents... are | abandoned his constituents... are ou abandoned his constituents... are you saying — abandoned his constituents... site: you saying people should abandoned his constituents... fif'e: you saying people should not abandoned his constituents... fife: you saying people should not have second jobs when we have had endless discussions about whether politicians should have second jobs and many do? politicians should have second 'obs and many doafi politicians should have second 'obs and many do? there is a problem of noliticians and many do? there is a problem of politicians getting _ and many do? there is a problem of politicians getting into _ and many do? there is a problem of politicians getting into a _ and many do? there is a problem of politicians getting into a brief- politicians getting into a brief which they later profit from. a ban on working as lobbyists as chris skidmore did because voters will think you are making laws simply to feather your nest after you leave politics. next wednesday, mishal husain will be hosting a head—to—head debate between rishi sunak and keir starmer in front of a live audience in nottingham. if you have a question for the party leaders you can contact bbc your voice, your vote via the bbc website. you can see all the details there. that is next wednesday. across the

course of the election campaign you will have noticed, as keen observers of the programme, we have been speaking to representatives of several smaller political parties on an almost daily basis. today we are speaking to the workers party of britain, running in its first general election with 152 candidates. let's speak to hoz shafiei, the national campaign manager of the party. welcome to you. we have asked representatives of all of the parties to give a short 32nd pitch of your offer to voters. perhaps you would like to. i would say to you that we are a... we are a necessity that has been born out of the politics we have had in the last 49 odd years when we have seen the labour party fracture and moved further right. we are a left—leaning socialist party, we believe in looking after everyone.

we are about taking everyone with us, we are not part of the... what is the best way of putting it? the thatcherite way of the individual over society. we are people that want the whole of the country to go together, including the poor, including veterans, including... the middle class, as well, that are becoming the poor at the moment. your 30 seconds is pretty well. the ongoing conflict in gaza has been central to the campaigning by your party in this election. but what can you really achieve? the government will be formed either by the conservatives or the labour party, thatis conservatives or the labour party, that is the most likely outcome. what can you do to actually change their policies when it comes to gaza? fist their policies when it comes to gaza? : :, ., , their policies when it comes to gaza? : :, .,, ,:, , gaza? at the moment, as the polls either way the _ gaza? at the moment, as the polls either way the are _ gaza? at the moment, as the polls either way the are going, _ gaza? at the moment, as the polls either way the are going, there's i either way the are going, there's not a lot we can do. looks like the labour party will win a huge majority, we want to make sure it is

not as big as it is. we feel it is an unhealthy for a party to have a 400 seat majority because they can do whatever they want to do without any kind of... pull back from the rest of the people in the country. now, labour i'm not saying what they are doing, all they are doing is waiting for the tory party that has disintegrated to be replaced by them and that is all it is, it is literally... and that is all it is, it is literally. . ._ and that is all it is, it is literall �* ., ., literally... but i was asking what ou are literally... but i was asking what you are proposing _ literally... but i was asking what you are proposing in _ literally... but i was asking what you are proposing in terms - literally... but i was asking what you are proposing in terms of i literally... but i was asking what you are proposing in terms of a l you are proposing in terms of a policy around the israel gaza conflict because, as i say, the leader george galloway has made its fairly central to his campaign. mi fairly central to his campaign. all i can fairly central to his campaign. fiii i can say is we are fighting for the people of gaza, we are demonstrating every single day. policy wise we are a very small party, there is not a lot we can do other than put in early day motions and all we can do is try to be the conscience of what i feel is a parliament that has become a psychopath and it has done that through the fact it has decided that through the fact it has decided

that what is happening in gaza is normal. what is happening to the people of gaza is normal. i normal. what is happening to the people of gaza is normal.- people of gaza is normal. i don't think the politicians _ people of gaza is normal. i don't think the politicians of _ people of gaza is normal. i don't i think the politicians of mainstream parties would characterise it like that but i will ask them in a moment. would you prefer a conservative or labour government? neither! i don't see any difference between either of them. it is literallyjust between either of them. it is literally just changing. .. between either of them. it is literallyjust changing... all it is is... imagined the chairs on the titanic. that is what we are looking at. let's swap the chairs over. you have tory in, have labour income makes no difference, the ship is sinking. this country of ours is going down and it is going down and i don't mean financially, i mean morally. we are bankrupt, we are part of an organisation or a country that has seen fit to support a genocide. i5 that has seen fit to support a genocide-— that has seen fit to support a renocide. , ., , :,, _, genocide. is there any hope coming from the workers _ genocide. is there any hope coming from the workers party _ genocide. is there any hope coming from the workers party of- genocide. is there any hope coming from the workers party of britain? | from the workers party of britain? the only hope i have is that i hope that people take the opportunity because every time we hear about, this is a democracy and we have to

vote for labour or tory saw this, that, the other, i suggest you vote for wherever there is a workers party of britain person, vote for them. if there isn't one, vote for them. if there isn't one, vote for the independents because we cannot allow the labour party to basically have 400 seat majority. as]!!! allow the labour party to basically have 400 seat majority.— have 400 seat ma'ority. all right. hoz have 400 seat ma'ority. all right. no: snanaa, — have 400 seat majority. all right. hoz shafiei, thank _ have 400 seat majority. all right. hoz shafiei, thank you _ have 400 seat majority. all right. hoz shafiei, thank you for - have 400 seat majority. all right. hoz shafiei, thank you forjoining| hoz shafiei, thank you forjoining us. shami, how will you persuade people who would like the issue of gaza and the conflict there at the forefront of the campaign and have lost faith in a labour party in this issue? to lost faith in a labour party in this issue? :, :, ., , ~ lost faith in a labour party in this issue? :, ., ., , ,, ., lost faith in a labour party in this issue? :, :, ., , ~ :, . issue? to have any kind of influence on the world — issue? to have any kind of influence on the world stage, _ issue? to have any kind of influence on the world stage, as _ issue? to have any kind of influence on the world stage, as is _ issue? to have any kind of influence on the world stage, as is relatively i on the world stage, as is relatively small country that we are now outside of europe and so on, to have any influence you have to be in government. i think that is mr galloway�*s party, is it not? government. i think that is mr galloway's party, is it not? yes. they want _ galloway's party, is it not? yes. they want an — galloway's party, is it not? yes. they want an economic- galloway's party, is it not? yes. they want an economic reset i galloway's party, is it not? yes. i they want an economic reset and galloway's party, is it not? yes. they want an economic reset and all the rest of it. what we didn't hear about was the rather hateful homophobic views that galloway has

repeatedly put on the electoral map. i think george galloway is a shape shifter rather akin to nigel farage and he knows about division and knows about... sometimes it goes to a constituency and tells... he is not here a constituency and tells... he is rrot here to _ a constituency and tells... he is not here to answer _ a constituency and tells... he is not here to answer if _ a constituency and tells... he is not here to answer if you i a constituency and tells... he is not here to answer if you are i a constituency and tells... he is i not here to answer if you are going to make specific allegations. i think this is the politics of division and a form of anti—politics. it is not actually are way to bring forward sensible change, either in britain or on the world stage. change, either in britain or on the world stage-— change, either in britain or on the world stage.- bullet - change, either in britain or on the world stage.- bullet policy| change, either in britain or on the. world stage.- bullet policy is world stage. sonia? bullet policy is the workers _ world stage. sonia? bullet policy is the workers party _ world stage. sonia? bullet policy is the workers party of— world stage. sonia? bullet policy is the workers party of britain - world stage. sonia? bullet policy is the workers party of britain has i world stage. sonia? bullet policy is the workers party of britain has is. the workers party of britain has is they want— the workers party of britain has is they want to take the uk out of nato, _ they want to take the uk out of nato, they want to cut spending on a nuclear— nato, they want to cut spending on a nuclear deterrent. there are huge security— nuclear deterrent. there are huge security issues, as well, in terms of what _ security issues, as well, in terms of what they are saying. i found it really _ of what they are saying. i found it really hard — of what they are saying. i found it really hard to take credibly anyone from the _ really hard to take credibly anyone from the left who comes on and says there _ from the left who comes on and says there is— from the left who comes on and says there is no— from the left who comes on and says there is no difference between a conservative and labour government. look conservative and labour government. look at _ conservative and labour government. look at the _ conservative and labour government. look at the labour government track record _ look at the labour government track record between 1997 and 2010 on something like child poverty and look what has happened in the last

few years — look what has happened in the last few years in this country. there is a huge _ few years in this country. there is a huge difference.— few years in this country. there is a huge difference. right, but there is pressure — a huge difference. right, but there is pressure coming _ a huge difference. right, but there is pressure coming from _ a huge difference. right, but there is pressure coming from both i a huge difference. right, but there is pressure coming from both the l is pressure coming from both the left to labour and reform on the right to the conservatives. notjust the workers party of britain, the green party primarily, particularly on some of these issues. and that may well be people who say they can't see any difference between mainstream parties, iwill go can't see any difference between mainstream parties, i will go left and right. bi]! mainstream parties, i will go left and rinht. : ,, ., :, and right. all keir starmer has done in the last few _ and right. all keir starmer has done in the last few years _ and right. all keir starmer has done in the last few years is _ and right. all keir starmer has done in the last few years is pretty i and right. all keir starmer has done in the last few years is pretty much | in the last few years is pretty much abandoned his various policies until there was nothing there to point to. i was surprised the workers party of britain isn't doing better because of course there is a very strong depth of feeling on the gas issue but it seems to be the greens rather than the pro three who successfully labour from the left. look how the greens are campaigning in bristol centre, where they may well win. they are talking about saying the rich have got richer and the poor have got for it which is untrue, the lowest paid to have done the best in the last 14 years and the highest—paid have done the west.

does it worry you in terms of that pressure from the left, not necessarily from the workers party of britain that from the green party? of britain that from the green pa ? , :, , party? i... it is not yet evident that it is _ party? i... it is not yet evident that it is worrying _ party? i... it is not yet evident that it is worrying enough i party? i... it is not yet evident i that it is worrying enough perhaps to significantly alter the outcome of the _ to significantly alter the outcome of the election. i think there are a lot of— of the election. i think there are a lot of people in the green party who i wish _ lot of people in the green party who i wish were — lot of people in the green party who i wish were in the labour party. i wish _ iwish were in the labour party. i wish they— i wish were in the labour party. i wish they didn't feel it necessary to fragment the coalition in that way _ to fragment the coalition in that way but— to fragment the coalition in that way. but the green party, unlike the workers _ way. but the green party, unlike the workers party does not pedal the hateful _ workers party does not pedal the hateful politics that mr galloway has done through his career stocking up has done through his career stocking up until— has done through his career stocking up until a _ has done through his career stocking up until a few months ago we were talking _ up until a few months ago we were talking about tactical voting. ways of getting rid of the conservative government stop as we see now, in the polls, _ government stop as we see now, in the polls, tactical voting is about how we _ the polls, tactical voting is about how we ensure that any future labour government _ how we ensure that any future labour government is held to account. so that people like the green party who are, let's _ that people like the green party who are, let's face it, much more

authentically socialist and left—wing than the labour party is now, _ left—wing than the labour party is now. i_ left—wing than the labour party is now. i don't— left—wing than the labour party is now, i don't really see the labour now, idon't really see the labour party— now, i don't really see the labour party as _ now, i don't really see the labour party as a — now, i don't really see the labour party as a socialist party any more. and yet — party as a socialist party any more. and yet it — party as a socialist party any more. and yet... it is a social democratic party at. and yet... it is a social democratic pa at. ~ ~' :, and yet... it is a social democratic pa at. . ~ :, ., and yet... it is a social democratic pa at. «a, ., , , party at. we know there are plenty of n-eole party at. we know there are plenty of people in _ party at. we know there are plenty of people in this _ party at. we know there are plenty of people in this country _ party at. we know there are plenty of people in this country who i party at. we know there are plenty of people in this country who like i of people in this country who like socialism — of people in this country who like socialism and believe in it. the green — socialism and believe in it. the green party are much more authentic voice _ green party are much more authentic voice for— green party are much more authentic voice for that and... it is green party are much more authentic voice for that and. . ._ voice for that and... it is good to hear your— voice for that and... it is good to hear your voice _ voice for that and... it is good to hear your voice about _ voice for that and... it is good to hear your voice about socialism. | voice for that and... it is good to i hear your voice about socialism. it is my grandad's advice was a founder member— is my grandad's advice was a founder member of— is my grandad's advice was a founder member of the labour party. if he were a founder— member of the labour party. if he were a founder member _ member of the labour party. if ie: were a founder member he would member of the labour party. if “ie: were a founder member he would have recognised the labour party as a broad coalition. he recognised the labour party as a broad coalition.— broad coalition. he would have recognised _ broad coalition. he would have recognised the _ broad coalition. he would have recognised the party _ broad coalition. he would have recognised the party standing l broad coalition. he would have l recognised the party standing up broad coalition. he would have i recognised the party standing up for working _ recognised the party standing up for working people and i respected him for that, _ working people and i respected him for that, as — working people and i respected him for that, as we all should. find working people and i respected him for that, as we all should. andl for that, as we all should. and i respected _ for that, as we all should. and i respected and _ for that, as we all should. and i respected and continue - for that, as we all should. and i respected and continue to i for that, as we all should. in i respected and continue to respect the rule of law, one nation conservatives, who do not brand the european court of human rights as a "foreign court" because it sits in strasbourg. "foreign court" because it sits in strasbourg-—

"foreign court" because it sits in strasboura. :, , , :, :, , strasbourg. socialism is not a dirty word and people — strasbourg. socialism is not a dirty word and people are _ strasbourg. socialism is not a dirty word and people are entitled i strasbourg. socialism is not a dirty word and people are entitled to i strasbourg. socialism is not a dirty l word and people are entitled to have a party— word and people are entitled to have a party that— word and people are entitled to have a party that represents _ word and people are entitled to have a party that represents it. _ word and people are entitled to have a party that represents it. the - a party that represents it. the labour a party that represents it. the labour party _ a party that represents it. the labour party from _ a party that represents it. labour party from its a party that represents it.- labour party from its inception, a party that represents it- labour party from its inception, as you know, has always been a broad coalition. it has had to be because when you are doing mass movement politics for people who do not inherit wealth and power, you have to move in broad coalitions. there is a noint to move in broad coalitions. there is a point about _ to move in broad coalitions. there is a point about being _ to move in broad coalitions. there is a point about being a _ to move in broad coalitions. there is a point about being a broad i is a point about being a broad coalition— is a point about being a broad coalition if you take away, in order to accommodate as many people as you can come _ to accommodate as many people as you can come you _ to accommodate as many people as you can come you take away the meaning of the _ can come you take away the meaning of the party — can come you take away the meaning of the party-— of the party. that simply is not true. of the party. that simply is not true- first _ of the party. that simply is not true. first past _ of the party. that simply is not true. first past the _ of the party. that simply is not true. first past the post i of the party. that simply is not i true. first past the post system, party— true. first past the post system, party to— true. first past the post system, party to the _ true. first past the post system, party to the left _ true. first past the post system, party to the left and _ true. first past the post system, party to the left and party- true. first past the post system, party to the left and party to i true. first past the post system, party to the left and party to the | party to the left and party to the right _ party to the left and party to the right wing — party to the left and party to the right wing by— party to the left and party to the right wing by building _ party to the left and party to the right wing by building a - party to the left and party to the right wing by building a broad i right wing by building a broad coalition— right wing by building a broad coalition of— right wing by building a broad coalition of voters _ right wing by building a broad coalition of voters and - right wing by building a broad i coalition of voters and appealing right wing by building a broad - coalition of voters and appealing to the centre — coalition of voters and appealing to the centre as — coalition of voters and appealing to the centre as well _ coalition of voters and appealing to the centre as well as _ coalition of voters and appealing to the centre as well as the _ coalition of voters and appealing to the centre as well as the left - coalition of voters and appealing to the centre as well as the left and i the centre as well as the left and as well— the centre as well as the left and as well as — the centre as well as the left and as well as the _ the centre as well as the left and as well as the right. _ the centre as well as the left and as well as the right. that - the centre as well as the left and as well as the right. that is - as well as the right. that is exactly— as well as the right. that is exactly what _ as well as the right. that is exactly what keir— as well as the right. that isj exactly what keir starmer's as well as the right. that is - exactly what keir starmer's labour party— exactly what keir starmer's labour party has _ exactly what keir starmer's labour party has done _ exactly what keir starmer's labour party has done and _ exactly what keir starmer's labour party has done and that _ exactly what keir starmer's labour party has done and that is - exactly what keir starmer's labour party has done and that is what i exactly what keir starmer's labourj party has done and that is what we need, _ party has done and that is what we need. that— party has done and that is what we need. that is— party has done and that is what we need, that is what _ party has done and that is what we need, that is what he _ party has done and that is what we need, that is what he needs - party has done and that is what we need, that is what he needs to- party has done and that is what we need, that is what he needs to doi party has done and that is what we i need, that is what he needs to do to win a _ need, that is what he needs to do to win a general— need, that is what he needs to do to win a general election. _ need, that is what he needs to do to win a general election. he _ need, that is what he needs to do to win a general election.— need, that is what he needs to do to win a general election. he has moved to the right--- — win a general election. he has moved to the right... we _ win a general election. he has moved to the right... we have _ win a general election. he has moved to the right... we have done - win a general election. he has moved to the right... we have done exactly. to the right... we have done exactly the same as — to the right... we have done exactly the same as the _ to the right... we have done exactly the same as the government. i to the right... we have done exactly the same as the government. hang| to the right... we have done exactly i the same as the government. hang on, we are going — the same as the government. hang on, we are going to- -- _ the same as the government. hang on, we are going to... what _

the same as the government. hang on, we are going to... what about - the same as the government. hang on, we are going to... what about the i we are going to... what about the conservative _ we are going to... what about the conservative party? _ we are going to... what about the conservative party? we _ we are going to... what about the conservative party? we are i we are going to... what about the conservative party? we are going| we are going to... what about the i conservative party? we are going to come onto the _ conservative party? we are going to come onto the conservative - conservative party? we are going to come onto the conservative party. l come onto the conservative party. you can ask precisely that question. nick robinson continues his series of interviews with the party leaders. he'll bejoined by the reform party leader nigel farage tonight at 7pm on bbc one and iplayer. isaid we i said we would talk about the conservative party and we are going to because the polls as you know, we may be able to show you the bbc poll tracker, they have kept the labour party at least 20 points ahead of the conservatives pretty well throughout this campaign and before. we have also had some more apocalyptic polls in terms of the outcome for the conservatives, ranging from wipe—out to this term supermajority, but a very majority. there is no wonder there has been discussion about the future of the conservative party. also a lot of chatter about manoeuvrings in terms of future leaders post this election. fraser, you are one who

has been writing about this. looking at the narrative mentioned earlier, at the narrative mentioned earlier, a labour landslide, prevent a labour supermajority. this idea that the tories have already lost, it would be about minimising damage, do you think it has worked as a campaign tool? , think it has worked as a campaign tool? _ ,:, , :, tool? judging by the polls nothing is workin: . tool? judging by the polls nothing is working. the _ tool? judging by the polls nothing is working. the polls _ tool? judging by the polls nothing is working. the polls are - tool? judging by the polls nothing is working. the polls are not i is working. the polls are not narrowing as the campaign goes on and what we are instead seeing is nigel farage coming along and the conservative vote splitting into between the tories and reform. we now have two conservative party is fighting the election that has never happened before. that is what we are seeing, it is not really the shifting left, it is how the votes are falling. it will give keir starmer a disproportionate majority to people voting labour. it is not that big, early 405, but big enough. the conservatives have two strategies. one is to pretend they are going to win and the other, and i know a couple of cabinet members who think they should be doing this, saying we have already lost but the most rational reason you have the voting labour is to hold the

starmer's feet to the fire, don't give in to bigger majority. surely you would prefer a more balanced parliament with 100, 200 tory mp5, thatis parliament with 100, 200 tory mp5, that is a more coherent argument. but can you really fight a government party on the election do premise you have already lost? you think the tories _ premise you have already lost? you think the tories will win? i - premise you have already lost? you think the tories will win? i gave i premise you have already lost? you think the tories will win? i gave up| think the tories will win? i gave up on that about _ think the tories will win? i gave up on that about a _ think the tories will win? i gave up on that about a month _ think the tories will win? i gave up on that about a month or - think the tories will win? i gave up on that about a month or so i think the tories will win? i gave up on that about a month or so ago. i | on that about a month or so ago. i don't _ on that about a month or so ago. i don't think— on that about a month or so ago. i don't think they are. what is important, i don't understand this way supermajority. important, i don't understand this way supermajority— important, i don't understand this way supermajority. way superma'ority. let's not use it. a bi way supermajority. let's not use it. a big majority- _ what a big majority says is that you have fewer — what a big majority says is that you have fewer people to hold you to account — have fewer people to hold you to account and one of the things we know— account and one of the things we know is— account and one of the things we know is if— account and one of the things we know is if the labour party come into power— know is if the labour party come into power which seems likely is that taxes— into power which seems likely is that taxes will go up and they need to be _ that taxes will go up and they need to be held — that taxes will go up and they need to be held to account and if we

haven't — to be held to account and if we haven't got those mps sitting opposite to hold them to account that is— opposite to hold them to account that is a — opposite to hold them to account that is a serious threat to democracy. that is a serious threat to democracy-— that is a serious threat to democracy. that is a serious threat to democra . . :, ., ., that is a serious threat to democra . . :, ., :, _, , democracy. what i wanted to come is this broad church, _ democracy. what i wanted to come is this broad church, what _ democracy. what i wanted to come is this broad church, what has _ democracy. what i wanted to come is| this broad church, what has happened to the conservatives brought church? you say it is split into. and to the conservatives brought church? you say it is split into.— you say it is split into. and it shrunk over _ you say it is split into. and it shrunk over brexit _ you say it is split into. and it shrunk over brexit so - you say it is split into. and it shrunk over brexit so there i you say it is split into. and it i shrunk over brexit so there were a lot of moderates who left the party or who were purged. they were pushed out over brexit and that is a bad thing for a party and i think that helps explain why the conservative party is in a state because if you have an ideological purge of your party and you push out some centrist mp5 that is not great for your prospects. that is true. that election was done when there was... exit election. brexit has not delivered what borisjohnson said it would. now the conservative party are getting bashed for it. what

would. now the conservative party are getting bashed for it.— are getting bashed for it. what i think some _ are getting bashed for it. what i think some people _ are getting bashed for it. what i think some people in _ are getting bashed for it. what i think some people in the - are getting bashed for it. what i i think some people in the existing conservative party wanted to turn this election into a referendum on putting _ this election into a referendum on putting out— this election into a referendum on pulling out of the convention on human— pulling out of the convention on human rights and rishi sunak has been _ human rights and rishi sunak has been leaning in that direction showing _ been leaning in that direction showing ankle in that direction and he did _ showing ankle in that direction and he did not— showing ankle in that direction and he did not come clean about it in his manifesto and you so that in the final question last night, he lashed out against the foreign court stock that is— out against the foreign court stock that is a _ out against the foreign court stock that is a disgrace and not the best tradition— that is a disgrace and not the best tradition of— that is a disgrace and not the best tradition of the british conservative party in its day, the most _ conservative party in its day, the most successful coalition electorally in western democratic history _ electorally in western democratic history. shame on him, we need a one nation _ history. shame on him, we need a one nation conservative party... history. shame on him, we need a one nation conservative party. . ._ nation conservative party... nobody is sa inn nation conservative party... nobody is saying we — nation conservative party... nobody is saying we should _ nation conservative party... nobody is saying we should pull _ nation conservative party... nobody is saying we should pull out... i nation conservative party... nobody is saying we should pull out... yes i is saying we should pull out... yes the are. is saying we should pullout... yes they are- l— is saying we should pull out... yes they are- i am _ is saying we should pull out... yes they are. i am in _ is saying we should pull out... they are. i am in danger of agreeing, the conservative party will never be in favour of pulling out of the european convention on human rights...—

out of the european convention on human rights... some conservatives do not human rights... some conservatives do rrot think — human rights... some conservatives do rrot think it _ human rights... some conservatives do not think it is _ human rights... some conservatives do not think it is ridiculous. - human rights... some conservatives do not think it is ridiculous. some i do not think it is ridiculous. some of my party _ do not think it is ridiculous. some of my party colleagues _ do not think it is ridiculous. some of my party colleagues are - do not think it is ridiculous. some of my party colleagues are wrong | do not think it is ridiculous. fine of my party colleagues are wrong and it will argue this to the great but the point is when you build a party, you have respect for each site and each site must have respect for the others and what we have seen is a lack of respect for one nation conservatism, that has happened and after the election they have got to be reminded. there has been no conservative victory that has been fought from the centre.— fought from the centre. fraser nelson, fought from the centre. fraser nelson. is _ fought from the centre. fraser nelson, is that _ fought from the centre. fraser nelson, is that your _ fought from the centre. fraser nelson, is that your analysis? | fought from the centre. fraser. nelson, is that your analysis? we fought from the centre. fraser- nelson, is that your analysis? we do not know the outcome of the election and anything can happen in the last weeks of a campaign looking to some of the discussions does the party turn backwards?— of the discussions does the party turn backwards? . :, ., , :, turn backwards? whatever remains of the conservative _ turn backwards? whatever remains of the conservative party, _ turn backwards? whatever remains of the conservative party, a _ turn backwards? whatever remains of the conservative party, a quarter i turn backwards? whatever remains of the conservative party, a quarter or. the conservative party, a quarter or a third of the current crop, what parliament will look like, there will be between any form around 150,

nigel farage might get more the lib dems but the polls suggest he will be lucky to fill a taxi with his mp5 so you got to reunite the right, that's obvious. the conservatives would have to accept what has happened is they have been going so long promising conservatism and not delivering it, promising tax cuts and putting taxes up, they have disappointed people who believed in them that they have rebelled against it and i think the mistake was thinking you could actually talk right and move left and you would not suffer a political punishment and they have done now. i do not see it in terms of right or left. when you look at the nigel farage manifesto, it is not a big ideological gap between him and the conservatives. i ideological gap between him and the conservatives.— conservatives. i disagree with you. you look at — conservatives. i disagree with you. you look at the _ conservatives. i disagree with you. you look at the track _ conservatives. i disagree with you. you look at the track record - conservatives. i disagree with you. you look at the track record of i you look at the track record of conservative _ you look at the track record of conservative chancellors - you look at the track record of.

conservative chancellors between 2010 and — conservative chancellors between 2010 and 2024. _ conservative chancellors between 2010 and 2024, they _ conservative chancellors between 2010 and 2024, they cut - conservative chancellors between 2010 and 2024, they cut tax - conservative chancellors between i 2010 and 2024, they cut tax credits directed _ 2010 and 2024, they cut tax credits directed at — 2010 and 2024, they cut tax credits directed at low— 2010 and 2024, they cut tax credits directed at low income _ 2010 and 2024, they cut tax credits directed at low income families i 2010 and 2024, they cut tax credits directed at low income families as i directed at low income families as well as— directed at low income families as well as making _ directed at low income families as well as making tax _ directed at low income families as well as making tax cuts _ directed at low income families as well as making tax cuts that - well as making tax cuts that disproportionately- well as making tax cuts that| disproportionately benefited well as making tax cuts that i disproportionately benefited the better _ disproportionately benefited the better off — disproportionately benefited the better off and _ disproportionately benefited the better off and they _ disproportionately benefited the better off and they effectively i disproportionately benefited the i better off and they effectively cut tax creditsm _ better off and they effectively cut tax creditsm t— better off and they effectively cut tax credits. . ._ better off and they effectively cut tax credits. . .— tax credits... i think that's the o- osite tax credits... i think that's the opposite of... _ tax credits... i think that's the opposite of... its _ tax credits... i think that's the | opposite of... its distributional analysis — opposite of... its distributional analysis i_ opposite of... its distributional analysis. i bet you anything you like the — analysis. i bet you anything you like the best paid rather than the lowest _ like the best paid rather than the lowest paid did best.— like the best paid rather than the lowest paid did best. £4000 lost an averaue lowest paid did best. £4000 lost an average year _ lowest paid did best. £4000 lost an average year net. _ lowest paid did best. £4000 lost an average year net. you _ lowest paid did best. £4000 lost an average year net. you cannot - lowest paid did best. £4000 lost an average year net. you cannot assert that the — average year net. you cannot assert that the facts — average year net. you cannot assert that the facts are _ average year net. you cannot assert that the facts are wrong, _ average year net. you cannot assert that the facts are wrong, they- average year net. you cannot assert that the facts are wrong, they are l that the facts are wrong, they are right, _ that the facts are wrong, they are right, i've — that the facts are wrong, they are right, i've written _ that the facts are wrong, they are right, i've written about _ that the facts are wrong, they are right, i've written about them. i l right, i've written about them. i have right, i've written about them. have written about them too. right, i've written about them. i - have written about them too. there are fiscal reports _ have written about them too. there are fiscal reports that _ have written about them too. there are fiscal reports that show - have written about them too. there are fiscal reports that show this. . are fiscal reports that show this. you too — are fiscal reports that show this. you too could _ are fiscal reports that show this. you too could perhaps _ are fiscal reports that show this. you too could perhaps have - are fiscal reports that show this. you too could perhaps have this| you too could perhaps have this debate together, we will play it out on this point, you can bring your respective reports but can i ask a question on the labour party? if sir keir starmer and the party win the

election and get into government how long will the honeymoon period be because there are a lot of people that say there is not much difference between the parties. mr; difference between the parties. my fear difference between the parties. m fear follows what difference between the parties. m1: fear follows what andre says difference between the parties. m1 fear follows what andre says about one nation conservatism and what might happen if the tories lurched to the right. you will have a labour government that is trying to be honest about the state of public finances, no magic once to deliver everything people need and are craving instantly and if there is a hateful form craving instantly and if there is a hatefulform right craving instantly and if there is a hateful form right politics coming from reform uk or the tory party i think it could be a very unpleasant time for everyone. i think it could be a very unpleasant time for everyone.— think it could be a very unpleasant time for everyone. i think the other thin we time for everyone. i think the other thing we are _ time for everyone. i think the other thing we are underestimating - time for everyone. i think the other thing we are underestimating is - time for everyone. i think the other thing we are underestimating is the pror'ected _ thing we are underestimating is the projected labour majority which does not necessarily lead to happy ihterhat — not necessarily lead to happy internal politics so if you have a large _ internal politics so if you have a large majority there will be some groups— large majority there will be some groups in—

large majority there will be some groups in the labour party who feel they can _ groups in the labour party who feel they can repel because there is a large _ they can repel because there is a large majority and policies will pass _ large majority and policies will pass anyway so there may well be ihterhat _ pass anyway so there may well be internal dynamics and opposition which _ internal dynamics and opposition which may end up being a significant ihftuehcihg _ which may end up being a significant influencing factor. a big which may end up being a significant influencing factor.— influencing factor. a big part of the opposition. _ influencing factor. a big part of the opposition. a _ influencing factor. a big part of the opposition. a question - influencing factor. a big part of the opposition. a question forl influencing factor. a big part of. the opposition. a question for you which is how all old to keep on working? that question creating debate in various industries and now hanging over the house of lords because the labour party has pledged that should they win the election they would impose a retirement age of 80 one peers are sitting in the upper chamber. we can talk to lord of dabs, i will ask him his age in a moment, he was born in prague in 1932. he came to the uk on candour transport aged six and throughout his career in the house of commons and house of lords has been outspoken on many issues but we can see him outside of number ten downing street securing the dubs

amendment that helped 350 unaccompanied children seven in the uk and he drew national attention for holding the government to account over the treatment of refugee children arriving here. welcome to you. make a case for not having an age limit on the house of lords. ., ., , ., lords. there are two things wrong with the house _ lords. there are two things wrong with the house of— lords. there are two things wrong with the house of lords, - lords. there are two things wrong with the house of lords, it - lords. there are two things wrong with the house of lords, it is - lords. there are two things wrong with the house of lords, it is far. with the house of lords, it is far too large and the method of appointment. on the method of appointment. on the method of appointment we have seen some pretty corrupt practices of this are the people put in because they've been generous donors to the conservative party so i think we've got to reform the size of the house of lords and the size of the house of lords and the method by which we get there. i personally believe there is only one answer and that is to have an elected second chamber and i would like to see any changes that the labour party makes, a labour government makes, is a short first step to having a proper reform of the house of lords by way of an elected second chamber.-

elected second chamber. sonia shakin: elected second chamber. sonia shaking her— elected second chamber. sonia shaking her head. _ elected second chamber. sonia shaking her head. if _ elected second chamber. sonia shaking her head. if you - elected second chamber. sonia shaking her head. if you do - elected second chamber. sonia i shaking her head. if you do that, you get— shaking her head. if you do that, you get another chamber of elected politicians _ you get another chamber of elected politicians and it will be like another _ politicians and it will be like another house of commons so i would io another house of commons so i would go for— another house of commons so i would go for radical — another house of commons so i would go for radical reform, have citizens juries— go for radical reform, have citizens juries making appointments of experts — juries making appointments of experts to the house of lords so you have expertise in the chamber, a more _ have expertise in the chamber, a more popular element, ithink have expertise in the chamber, a more popular element, i think it could _ more popular element, i think it could work— more popular element, i think it could work really well and i like the fact — could work really well and i like the fact we have experts but i totally — the fact we have experts but i totally agree with lord dubs. lifetime _ totally agree with lord dubs. lifetime peerages are used as awards on troth_ lifetime peerages are used as awards on both sides of the political arm for people — on both sides of the political arm for people who have been mps. it's ridiculous— for people who have been mps. it's ridiculous that people get the privilege of a lifetime sitting in our legislature as a result of having — our legislature as a result of having friends in the right places. lord dubs? — having friends in the right places. lord dubs? gf having friends in the right places. lord dubs?— lord dubs? of course, i repeat i think we should _ lord dubs? of course, i repeat i think we should be _ lord dubs? of course, i repeat i think we should be elected - lord dubs? of course, i repeat i think we should be elected butl lord dubs? of course, i repeat i i think we should be elected but the problem with expertise as this, the foremost expert in nuclear physics knows nothing more than any of the rest of us about unemployment, the

health service, planning and education and so on. expertise does not last very long once use left the field in which you have been an expert so what are legislature needs its experts to advise them, that's what i'd like to see and that's why i do not move away from having an elected second chamber. if we can have a different method of election, it wouldn't quite be like the house of commons but there is no harm in that provided we are democratically accountable. that provided we are democratically accountable-— accountable. until that is discussed in detail depending _ accountable. until that is discussed in detail depending on _ accountable. until that is discussed in detail depending on what - accountable. until that is discussed l in detail depending on what happens in detail depending on what happens in this election, what about the age limit of 80? is it a good idea or not? you are 91!— limit of 80? is it a good idea or not? you are 91! ok, i am going to be on programmes _ not? you are 91! ok, i am going to be on programmes as _ not? you are 91! ok, i am going to be on programmes as the - not? you are 91! ok, i am going to be on programmes as the token i not? you are 91! ok, i am going to | be on programmes as the token old person! thank you! i am be on programmes as the token old person! thank you! lam not be on programmes as the token old person! thank you! i am not going to defend my position. as long as i can be replaced by an active and committed person... that is not the

present system. committed person... that is not the present system-— present system. hang on, hang on. fraser nelson. — present system. hang on, hang on. fraser nelson, the _ present system. hang on, hang on. fraser nelson, the fact _ present system. hang on, hang on. fraser nelson, the fact that - present system. hang on, hang on. fraser nelson, the fact that you - present system. hang on, hang on. fraser nelson, the fact that you are in the house of lords... fraser nelson will defend... in the house of lords... fraser nelson will defend. . ._ nelson will defend... there is nothin: nelson will defend... there is nothing tokenistic _ nelson will defend... there is nothing tokenistic about - nelson will defend... there is nothing tokenistic about lord | nelson will defend... there is - nothing tokenistic about lord dubs and he embodies why he is wrong. we need people like him who are original, the house of lords does not work in theory but it works in practice. irate not work in theory but it works in ractice. ~ ., ., ., ., not work in theory but it works in ractice. ., ., ., ., practice. we do not want to impose retirement and _ practice. we do not want to impose retirement and david _ practice. we do not want to impose retirement and david attenborough j retirement and david attenborough what he _ retirement and david attenborough what he does for the environment. what _ what he does for the environment. what he _ what he does for the environment. what he does for refugees is up there _ what he does for refugees is up there as — what he does for refugees is up there as well.— what he does for refugees is up there as well. . ., ., there as well. once we have done the house of lords _ there as well. once we have done the house of lords will _ there as well. once we have done the house of lords will be _ there as well. once we have done the house of lords will be sent _ there as well. once we have done the house of lords will be sent the - house of lords will be sent the monarch— house of lords will be sent the monarch has— house of lords will be sent the monarch has to _ house of lords will be sent the monarch has to retire... - house of lords will be sent the monarch has to retire... he- house of lords will be sent the monarch has to retire...- house of lords will be sent the monarch has to retire... he is the david attenborough _ monarch has to retire... he is the david attenborough of— monarch has to retire... he is the david attenborough of refugees l monarch has to retire... he is the i david attenborough of refugees and monarch has to retire... he is the - david attenborough of refugees and i think the _ david attenborough of refugees and i think the bbc will be calling for the early— think the bbc will be calling for the early departure of david attenborough. —— will not be

calling — attenborough. -- will not be callinu. ., , , , attenborough. -- will not be callinu. ., ,, , ., calling. lord dubs, there is a break-out — calling. lord dubs, there is a break-out of— calling. lord dubs, there is a break-out of love _ calling. lord dubs, there is a break-out of love and - calling. lord dubs, there is a l break-out of love and support calling. lord dubs, there is a - break-out of love and support for break—out of love and support for you. it is what the labour party is pledging in this manifesto, shami. alf has been diplomatic and he has not spoken against that, he is saying he wants an early transition to an elected second chamber and i hear what sonia says but i think the reasonable debate between them highlights for me the need for a constitutional convention and cross—party, cross regional consensus about probably a written constitution hopefully before i am at! ., , ., ., constitution hopefully before i am at! . ., , constitution hopefully before i am at! . ., ., at! that is a long way off but do ou at! that is a long way off but do you disagree _ at! that is a long way off but do you disagree with _ at! that is a long way off but do you disagree with the _ at! that is a long way off but do you disagree with the policy? i at! that is a long way off but do | you disagree with the policy? the oli are you disagree with the policy? ire: policy are supposed to you disagree with the policy? ir9 policy are supposed to be you disagree with the policy? ir9: policy are supposed to be a transition to an elected second chamber and i am with lord dubs on that but i also agree with sonia that but i also agree with sonia that if you start messing around with the constitution in this way, you would need to bolster the independentjudiciary and probably independent judiciary and probably give independentjudiciary and probably give them strike down powers. it’s a

give them strike down powers. it's a messaue give them strike down powers. it's a message from _ give them strike down powers. it's a message from the _ give them strike down powers. it's a message from the labour— give them strike down powers. it's a message from the labour party that after 80, you are useless. all that is quite brittle. lord dubs, would you like to respond? i is quite brittle. lord dubs, would you like to respond?— is quite brittle. lord dubs, would you like to respond? i agree with shami. it you like to respond? i agree with shami- it is _ you like to respond? i agree with shami. it is very _ you like to respond? i agree with shami. it is very simple. - you like to respond? i agree with shami. it is very simple. bob - you like to respond? i agree with shami. it is very simple. bob i i you like to respond? i agree with | shami. it is very simple. bob i am there because as long as i feel i can make a contribution and i'm not keeping anyone else out which i am manifestly not, i will keep going. the number of people affected by this are very few and most of them in the labour party, as an older party because of the appointments system. the actual change to the size of the lords will not be very large and some of the people over 80 are pretty effective whether it's michael heseltine or sir david attenborough orjoan bakewell, these are older people making a positive contribution. it’s are older people making a positive contribution.— contribution. it's a pretty eminent urou - , contribution. it's a pretty eminent group. the _ contribution. it's a pretty eminent group. the over— contribution. it's a pretty eminent group, the over 80s _ contribution. it's a pretty eminent group, the over 80s club - contribution. it's a pretty eminent group, the over 80s club in - contribution. it's a pretty eminent group, the over 80s club in the i group, the over 80s club in the house of lords. the group, the over 80s club in the

house of lords.— house of lords. the spectator magazine _ house of lords. the spectator magazine does _ house of lords. the spectator magazine does an _ house of lords. the spectator. magazine does an octogenarian house of lords. the spectator- magazine does an octogenarian is list every— magazine does an octogenarian is list every now _ magazine does an octogenarian is list every now and _ magazine does an octogenarian is list every now and again - magazine does an octogenarian is list every now and again under. magazine does an octogenarian is i list every now and again under packs a punch _ list every now and again under packs a punch. america _ list every now and again under packs a punch. america is _ list every now and again under packs a punch. america is a _ list every now and again under packs a punch. america is a bad _ list every now and again under packs a punch. america is a bad example. i a punch. america is a bad example. 0ver— a punch. america is a bad example. over here, — a punch. america is a bad example. over here, the _ a punch. america is a bad example. over here, the house _ a punch. america is a bad example. over here, the house of— a punch. america is a bad example. over here, the house of lords i a punch. america is a bad example. l over here, the house of lords needs independent— over here, the house of lords needs independent spirit, _ over here, the house of lords needs independent spirit, people _ over here, the house of lords needs independent spirit, people not i independent spirit, people not curious— independent spirit, people not curious looking _ independent spirit, people not curious looking over— independent spirit, people not curious looking over their i independent spirit, people not i curious looking over their shoulder at the _ curious looking over their shoulder at the approbation. _ curious looking over their shoulder at the approbation. lord _ curious looking over their shoulder at the approbation.— curious looking over their shoulder at the approbation. lord dubs, thank ou so at the approbation. lord dubs, thank you so much. — at the approbation. lord dubs, thank you so much, doing _ at the approbation. lord dubs, thank you so much, doing a _ at the approbation. lord dubs, thank you so much, doing a brilliant i at the approbation. lord dubs, thank you so much, doing a brilliantjob- you so much, doing a brilliantjob and clearly for the over 80s in the house of lords! laughter. that's all we have time for today. thank you to all of my guess. i will be back with more on the programme on monday. goodbye.

today at 1:00pm, the chief constable of northamptonshire police is dismissed for lying about his military service. nick adderley wore a medal from the falklands war, despite only being 15 years old when the conflict happened. also on the programme... sensitive nhs blood test data from patients at two london hospitals is published online by hackers. and three popular sunscreens fail tests, meaning they could provide less protection than they claim to.

and coming up on bbc news, wales sacked manager rob page after three and a half years in charge following and a half years in charge following a string of disappointing results for the national side. good afternoon, and welcome to the bbc news at one. a police chief who lied about his military achievements has been found guilty of gross misconduct. northamptonshire police chief constable nick adderley was dismissed from the force and barred from any futurejobs in policing. doubts about his record first emerged over a falklands war medal that he wore, despite being too young to have served in the conflict. our midlands correspondent navteonhal is in northampton. navtej, what did the panel find?

this extraordinary series of events was