his prime ministerial third term will depend on the reliability of the smaller parties in his ruling coalition, and the opposition in india's parliament has been reenergised after years on life support. my guest, sachin pilot, is a seniorfigure in the congress party, which will lead a diverse opposition coalition. is india heading for a period of consensual government or chaos? sachin pilot,

welcome to hardtalk. thank you. the recent indian election, it was a result which nobody really expected. your party, the congress party, did better than the polls had suggested it would. many in your party expressed contentment, evenjoy. and yet you still lost. isn't that the key point? that is true. but i think the expectation from the ruling dispensation, a lot of the popular mainstream media was that the propaganda will suffice and people will give a bigger majority to the ruling party. what really happened was, this was a vote by the people to check what we thought were excesses by the government, and the congress party and our allies together have done remarkably well, compared to last time. if you look at the numbers, the ruling party has 290—odd mps and we have 240—odd. so it's not that much of a gap. but more than that, it shows the robustness of our democracy, and the way people have voted is that issues that are important to the people is what finally matters. sure, but the rhetoric surely is overblown on your side

of the political fence. rahul gandhi, obviously to many people the leader of the congress party. he said the idea of mr modi has been destroyed, and yet the bjp vote only went down by a percentage point or so from 2019, and they far outstripped your own congress party vote. but if you look at the numbers, really, the bjp has come down 70 members of parliament, from 303 down to 240, and congress party has more or less doubled its numbers. so i think a resounding vote against the government because the people... modi hasn't been destroyed. why are you pretending that he has? he hasn't. i think the way the government functioned for the last ten years, that was not acceptable to most indians, and this vote really has been a check and balance vote. of course, we didn't form the government. we don't have the numbers for that. but a strong united opposition is what the indian people wanted, and we have given it to them. the congress party, by the way,

people were expecting us to do a lot worse, but, i mean, we all knew the reality on the ground was different. so we got support across section and we've increased our number of mps and vote share. it's interesting, though, that the performance of the congress party — because we're going to talk about the strength of the opposition — the performance of your party was extraordinarily patchy. you are the party's general secretary for one particular state — chhattisgarh — where, actually, you did much worse as the congress party in this election than you did last time around, and i guess you have to take the blame for that. listen. many states, we have outperformed our previous numbers. but i'm talking about the state you're personally responsible for. we had two members of parliament, now we have one, and the other gentleman lost by 1,600 votes. so the vote share actually is almost as it was last time. sure, but you went backwards. you went backwards, and you're sitting here telling me, "oh, my goodness, this is a transformational "moment in india. "modi is on the back foot," and i'm suggesting to you that the congress party is in grave danger of being overconfident about what it's done.

i think — you said all that. i didn't say all that. i think this is a good election in the sense that congress party's numbers are up, our workers are enthused. we have won a few state elections. we've done double the numbers in the parliament. and a united opposition is, i think, as important in democracy as a ruling government. so the congress has been given the mandate to check and balance inside of parliament and outside parliament, and that's factually proven. the data says it all. united opposition, you say. as i understand it, the opposition coalition is a sort of rag bag grouping of — what is it? — 28 different political parties and movements, including some that have very different interests. you've got several different communist parties, you've got the indian union muslim league, you've got a hindutva—based party that has fallen out with the bjp. how are you going to make a coherent whole out of this mess of parties? this coalition came about in a full public display. the people of india knew the india alliance,

as we are called, and they voted for the india alliance members of parliament across the country. that's why we have 235, 240 members of parliament. so, this alliance was formed because we all felt that taking on the bjp collectively is a better idea. and what we stand for, the issues we raise is relevant to the people. so the people accepted the alliance as it is. so 2a parties coming together, it's not easy. it's a lot of give and take, it's a lot of compromises, but we did it together because we felt... what is the coherent, united vision that binds you, beyond hoping to defeat the bjp? you see, we have come together because we felt that, in india, the constitutional bodies, the functioning, the transparency, the credibility — all of them — was under a question mark. and we wanted to make sure that a 70—year history of nourishing these institutions remains. there is no question mark for the future, and that's important to all of us who hold institutions in very high regard. so we came together

in a democracy. we fight elections to win and to be able to better govern, to provide an alternate form of government, to have a blueprint for the next five years, what you want to do. so, we in the congress party had a manifesto that i think resonated with the people of india, and that's why my party and the alliance members did fairly well. who's going to be the leader of this very complex coalition opposition? well, the numbers are important in democracy, and our president, mr kharge, he's the convenor of the group, and we still don't have a leader of opposition. you still don't have... but in a few days... it's days since the results became clear. parliament starts on 24th ofjune, so much before that. you know as well as i do, there's much speculation about whether rahul gandhi is actually going to be the leader of the opposition inside parliament. there's some suggesting that he really doesn't have the hunger for it, he doesn't really want the job. not at all. is he going to get thejob? the congress party has officially asked him to take up thatjob, but that's his personal decision. in terms of the hunger

and the appetite to take on the bjp and the government, i think he's second to none in the last eight, nine years, despite being attacked personally, despite being threatened with cases and investigations, investigating agencies. he has come forward and questioned some of the wrong decisions that were taken by the government. he has worked hard for the party and for our candidates and, truth be told, the effort he put in working across the country — 4,000km — to invoke the togetherness, the sort of listening to the people to energise our workers and cadres, that helped us a great deal in getting these numbers that we have — 100 mp5. you don't worry that if rahul gandhi takes leadership of the opposition inside the parliament, that it will, to many indians, feel like yet another sign that the congress party is still tied to dynastic politics — to the old guard — rather than a future—facing younger generation of politicians? you see, in the congress party, the contribution and sacrifice of, let's say, indira gandhi or rajiv gandhi.

she took 32 bullets in her stomach to keep her country together. rajiv gandhi was assassinated while he was in opposition for his stand over the ltte. so i think what they've done for the party is commendable and it is the congress party's decision to have as leader... today we have a leader who was elected. it's not mr gandhi, it's mr kharge. he's the party president. i understand that you have five million or so followers on social—media platforms. ijust wonder — and you're a powerful voice inside the congress party — do you, as an individual member of the party, a senior voice within it, want rahul gandhi to be the leader of the opposition? i would want it. we have officially asked him to do it. he's going to take a call in a few days after consulting our allies. but whatever decision we take will be consensual and acceptable to everyone. just a final point about the state of congress as some people celebrate what was an outperformance of expectation, but others look at the congress party and still see deep institutional flaws. you're an interesting case. you are also a dynastic politician in a sense. your father was a minister

in a congress party government. you were a minister in a congress party government. here you sit before me, actually, right now, as a member of the assembly in the state of rajasthan. you had a terrible time in rajasthan — what, four years or so ago? — you had a massive feud as deputy chief minister with your boss, the chief minister, he fired you. and it seemed to be symptomatic of a problem inside your party. once you get into power — state or national — you start fighting amongst yourselves. no. there were certain disagreements, but that's all in the past. what's far more important is that are we able to give... chief minister mr gehlot — just to remind people — he described you as a "worthless person" as he fired you. i don't respond to that. i think he may have said that, but i don't think it's appropriate for me to respond in the same tone and tenor. that's four, five years ago. i don't want to delve into it. but since then, we have worked together for the party, in the state elections and in the national elections... and you lost the state elections. narrowly. and that's my point, in a way.

narrowly. i think we did a lot better than we did five years ago. so, you know... and rajasthan, by the way, every five years, there is a change of government, for the last 30—odd years. that's been the trend. we come... we came close to forming a government there, but didn't make it in the end. but i think these personal matters don't come in the way of the larger objective of the party — is to establish itself in places where we're weak and to give the bjp a head—on challenge. in fact, our strike rate is much better than last time. you say this personal stuff doesn't get in the way. my point, i suppose, is a wider one, and it was raised by shashi tharoor — another member of the congress party, who was on this show a year or so ago. he said, "the fact is, we do, as the congress party, "need to blood new young leaders. "i think that will have to happen. "the party has to end this high—command culture. "we have to empower the grassroots." i talk about your family background. i talk about the gandhi family background. maybe it's time for new, different leaders inside your party. the congress party two years ago adopted a declaration. there we said 50% of all party positions will go to people who are below the age

of 50, right? the backwards, the dalits, the women, minorities. so 50% of all party positions are reserved for people who are below 50 years of age. we are the only party to do that. and just because i can get elected through the vote of the people doesn't make anybody else less qualified. there are enough opportunities. we take everybody along together, and ultimately, stephen, you have to give credit to the people who vote. so if someone goes and gets 2.5 million people, and gets elected through an electoral process against many competition, you have to regard that choice as the people's choice. and the only one that matters is the people. if they don't want you, they won't vote for you. so let's talk about what happens next in india. mr modi is now beginning an historic third term. what, practically, can you in this — as you put it — united opposition do to change modi's political direction? i think time will tell what kind of a prime minister he turns out to be in the third term, but... he's talking about consensus.

well, we'll have to see. it's too early. we haven't even convened parliament yet. let's see what happens. but i think the numbers in the opposition are such that the, you know, single—handed decision making — no discussions, no debates, no deliberations — that can't go on. this will be a different parliament. the numbers are stacked up pretty much evenly — it's not one—sided — and more than that, i think the vigour and the energy in the opposition ranks has really come forward, and that will change many of the political landscapes from what we've seen in the last few years. well, let's talk about a key element of the modi vision, and that is the so—called hindutva vision — that is essentially making india a majoritarian hindu state with various different legal constitutional changes. are you in a position now, in the opposition, to block further moves in that direction? and if you can't do it in the parliament, will you try to do it even on the streets? most certainly. i think the first problem

they'll have is within their own coalition. so the bjp has two regional parties, and both those parties have been opposed to the bjp in the past. so it will be tricky for them to do as they wish because they don't have sufficient numbers in parliament. and ultimately, in a democracy, numbers matter. if you don't have a clear majority of single—party rule, you have to take other people along. i think time will tell whether these two allies will toe the line, or they'll do what we think is right. so the things that you mentioned — certainly within parliament and outside — the congress party will be in the forefront to take up anything we feel is not in the best interest of india. so, to be specific, you know, the bjp still, it seems, has a plan to push a so—called uniform civil code, which some in india see as extremely threatening to regional practices and customs — including religious practices and customs, specifically muslim practices and customs. rahul gandhi has said, "the idea you can spread hate and reap the benefits,

that has been rejected." so i suppose the question comes back to this — how? how are you going to stop it happening? first of all, this so—called uniform civil code, there's been a lot of talk. there's been a lot of meta discussions, but the government has not really come out with any blueprint or road map. there is no clarity on exactly what they want. it's a concept, but it's really, ithink, not on the table as of now. whenever... ifeel, look, the indian constitution is a secular constitution. every citizen is equally empowered. if anything is done to limit the rights, the freedom, the liberty of any of our citizens, surely that can't be the right way forward. and we have differences within our parliament — parties, ideology — but the indian nation and the indian people are far superior to anybody else. but is this difficult and sensitive territory for you and your party to get into? not at all. because, well, look at the facts. you had one fairly prominent member of your party, radhika khera — she left congress during the campaign and she alleged that she left because of your party's anti—hindu ideology.

when someone wants to leave the party, they have to come up with something that sells. so you sell something, it goes into the media cycles and, you know, you get prominence for that. there is no grain of truth in what that person may have said, i can tell you that. so, again, not so long ago with shashi tharoor, i talked about difficult subjects like the fact that what we see in india today is that, for example, people who have been discovered to have kept beef in theirfridges, for example — they get their houses bulldozed to the ground. now, that's not because a law says that must happen. it's simply because that's what the local authorities allow to happen. any government, any party, taking a step which is not in the rule book or does excesses will not be accepted. that's true. it's notjust via the congress party, but the entire society, things like that. there are a few instances, i will have to agree, but those have not been well received. and perhaps that is why you see the numbers that you see for the bjp and their allies. so are you already reaching out?

you talk about some of the smaller parties in the ruling coalition who you believe are not committed to this sort of policy. is your party currently reaching out to them and, long term, trying to persuade them to leave the coalition and topple modi? you're putting the cart before the horse. i mean, we have to see how the government functions, what the allies do and don't do. let the parliament session begin. all i can say is that, with this election, there is a resounding message that india, indian people, no matter what the propaganda, what the exit polls say, what the, you know, marketing machine of the bjp says, they have voted evenly. bjp may be ahead of us and may have formed a government, but it was a fractured mandate. it wasn't the 400, 300 seats the bjp wanted for itself. and surely someone must take responsibility for what they thought they'll achieve and they haven't. and the opposition together has come forward, and i think it's a healthy sign for our democracy. what is the congress party's vision for india's future? because if you're notjust to be an opposition party, but to be a potential party of government, you have to convince

the indian people that you have your own narrative for the future of the country. yes, and we do. for this election, i can guarantee you, our manifesto — our guarantee is what we said about the farming communities, for young people, for women, forjobs, for wealth creation, for creating an ecosystem where investments take place. today, we have the highest unemployment — 40% of educated young people are unemployed. that's not acceptable. sojust pure gdp numbers won't suffice. you have to have a job—creating growth trajectory that's reaching out to the people who are on the fringes. and in the congress party, we made sure that we want to have growth. don't forget, in 1991, it was our party's government that opened up indian economy for liberalised trade, global trade investments. and today we feel that the farming communities and the downtrodden haven't really, you know, got the benefits of indian economy doing so well. but if i may say so, your problem is that modi has a record. i mean, modi has delivered more than a decade of economic transformation in india. you know, we see it in the way that india is regarded by international investors, by big business, which wants a piece of india.

the danger for you is that many of those business leaders see, in your vision and your programme, a leftist radical agenda all about redistribution, prioritising the poor... please, let me correct you. ..more than business... absolutely misplaced. ..which they see as a threat to the indian economy. absolutely misplaced. i tell you again — �*91, when india first opened its economy to the world, it was a congress government. we reformed the economy, liberalised the economy. we made india part of global investments, global trade in 1990s, right? with the greatest of respect, that's more than 30 years ago. yes, but i'm saying... look at your agenda for the campaign we've just seen — you were pushing a "right to apprenticeship" scheme, which required businesses to hire apprentices, even if they had no aptitude or skills relevant to that particular business. it was about giving opportunity to an educated, qualified young person who hasn't been given that option. don't we have to create more jobs? do we not have to lean on our economy to make sure young people are not unemployed or underemployed? but it's a balance. you don't want to

destroy the economy... not at all. ..that you're trying to spread the wealth from. india has grown in the last 30 years, but i feel that the indian economy growing is not enough. we have to create jobs. we have to make sure our farmers are well fed. there are tens of millions of people who are not in the mainstream yet — how to get them back in. and please, congress party has always fostered growth, investments and job creation. there's no two ways about it. i think indians watching and listening to you will be clear that the congress party is going on the offensive in the coming months, because you've got a much stronger position inside the parliament, and i dare say inside the country. it's not offensive. it's a question of raising the voice of the people to be heard inside of parliament. but ijust wonder, in that context, whether you are fearful of a new round of repression. we have seen what has happened to leaders of the opposition in india in recent years. rahul gandhi — who was convicted of defamation and only was released from prison after the supreme court ordered it — do you fear that... i don't know about yourself, but senior leaders of your party will be under enormous pressure in the coming months? the government has used its agencies to target the opposition. it's very obvious.

it's very clear. chief ministers have been put injail. the agencies are investigating all opposition on some charges or the other, but i think all of that will get a pushback now, because the bjp does not have the mandate or the blank cheque by the people to do as it pleases. so there is more oversight. is there really? where is the new oversight coming from? in parliament. we will do it in parliament. the opposition will do it. well, you still are in the minority. that's your problem. it doesn't matter. but we have a voice. we will take it up and we will let the people decide. you see, we can'tjust sit back and say that everything is as it was earlier. there is a shift, and we have to recognise that shift. yeah. some say that the problem with the congress party approach is that, in recent years, you haven't had the capacity to take your campaigning from state and national parliament to the streets. you haven't had the power to mobilise the people of india. do you think you can

do that in the future? without sounding immodest, the congress party is india's oldest party. 0ur presence and our footprint is everywhere in this country. yes, there are some places where we have organisational weaknesses — we're working on that — but the congress party and its cadre are absolutely equipped to be a constructive, strong opposition wherever it's needed. we don't oppose for the sake of opposing, but when we have to be heard and seen, we do it and we do it quite vigorously. so, make no mistake that getting a few seats less will make our voices disappear, or the congress party won't speak up when we're required to. one thing we haven't discussed, which is important, is india's role and place in the wider world. what we have seen under modi is india's voice gaining traction and power across the world, partly because of the massive economic growth inside your country. would you change — if you were in power — any of the positions taken by modi on pakistan, on china, on russia? would you change anything in foreign policy? i think india is... the good thing about india is that no matter what government

comes into power, the directional focus of foreign policy is pretty much the same. there are some differences. you don't quarrel with modi's vision of india in the world? ithink... don't confuse his vision with what india stands for. so we have our differences — we fight them out, we win and lose. but for outside world, india is one strong 1.4 billion people and they need to have their space. they need to have their voices heard. and we will — we will persevere to make sure that happens. for example, getting india a seat on the security council — there's no reason why we shouldn't have that, irrespective of who's in government. that's something that india deserves and should have. there's no two ways about it. but in your question, you asked about our differences. yes, i have a difference — for example, i think that our stand on the chinese incursions into india in some parts of our country, they are still not taken care of. that's not been addressed properly, as well as it should have been. i think a proper, more strong voice... more hawkish on china? well, i think we have a lot of issues, and there's been lots of data that has not come out, so we need to really take

that into consideration when we move forward. a final big thought. you've made a point in this interview of saying, you know, we in the opposition, we have a new level of traction, we can change the way modi operates. does that mean that we, over the next four or five years, are looking at a much more unstable india? i can't say what will happen. all i can tell you is that we have a new government. it's not a single—party government, it's a coalition. we've had coalitions before, also. how long they last, i don't know, but the indian people have voted. we accept the mandate as it is. they've voted for us to be in the opposition and we are doing that for now. what the future holds, i don't know. and they always say today's opposition is tomorrow's government, so... will modi last a five—year term? i don't know, i can't say. it depends on their coalition partners. sachin pilot, thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thanks.

hello. we are into our first significant spell of summer heat at the moment, but how long will it last? well, certainly the heat will be widespread to start the week, quite humid by day and by night as well. 0k, not completely dry, but as we go through the second half of the week we will notice all of this gradually turning fresher, temperatures closer to where we would normally expect at this stage injune and a bit more of a mix in conditions out there as well. back to the here and now, well, for monday morning it is already quite humid across some southern and eastern areas, a bit fresher across the north and west, and we see the best of the morning sunshine. more cloud into north and west of scotland through the day, some low cloud around the coast and this is the remnants of our old weather front. it caused a lot of cloud during the afternoon yesterday — for parts of wales and the south—west especially. it is more across the midlands

and drifting into parts of south—east yorkshire later. it is not going to have a massive impact on temperatures, widely in the mid 20s for many — scotland 26, northern ireland 24, 25, experiencing their hottest day of the week. as we go into monday night, we'll see thicker cloud bring a bit more in the way of patchy light rain and drizzle to scotland and the west of northern ireland, some low cloud drifting northwards into northern england, but notice where that cloud is in place temperatures not dropping much lower than 15—17 . as we go into tuesday we have that weather front which brings a rainy end to the day in scotland. it pushes a bit further southwards, combines with the old weather front sitting here across northern england, produces a bit more cloud for scotland, northern ireland and northern england on tuesday. the chance of a few showers breaking out later in the day. scotland and northern ireland still warmer where the sunshine gets through, but nowhere near as warm as monday. the heat continues to build for the south and east, up to around 28 celsius in the london area by this stage. as we go through tuesday night into wednesday that first weather front starts to push away, but still remnants of it across the northern half of the country producing one or

two showers, more especially across scotland. but away from that some sunny spells across england and wales and the heat could build even further, could get to 28—29 c by the time we hit the middle part of the week. some showers and heavy downpours in northern ireland later and that is ahead of this area of low pressure between us and iceland, which will drive a cold front eastwards, sweeping away any humid air gradually as we go through thursday and friday and introducing fresher conditions, temperatures closer to normal as we head towards the weekend. and a few more showers around as well. take care.

live from london, this is bbc news. security forces in southern russia say they've killed gunmen who attacked churches, synagogues and police officers in two cities in dagestan. israel's prime minister says the intense phase of fighting against hamas in rafah is nearly over but that doesn't mean the gaza war is about to end. a british boy with severe epilepsy has become the first patient in the world to trial a new device fitted

in the skull to control seizures. we have a special report. and heartbreak for scotland as they fail to make it to the knockout stages of euro 2024 in germany, losing 1—0 to hungary, who scored a goal in the 100th minute. hello, i'm sally bundock. a warm welcome to the programme. we begin in the russian republic of dagestan, where security forces have killed the gunmen responsible for an attack on the police, churches and synagogues that has left at least 17 people dead. the incidents took place in two cities in the region during the orthodox festival of pentecost, as well as a vehicle in a nearby village. most of the victims were police officers but also included a priest. religious buildings were also set ablaze.