lam mm “oined b the de-u lam “oined b the de-u -olitical joined by the deputy political editor of the bbc. we are getting quite close to the debate starting. we were talking a little while ago. if we think about where we were after the last election, boris johnson winning a handsome majority, lots of questions for the labour party after the leadership ofjeremy corbyn, both parties have been on, shall we say, a journey for last few years. it shall we say, a “ourney for last few ears. , . , ., ~ years. it is incredible to think back to that _ years. it is incredible to think back to that because - years. it is incredible to think back to that because back - years. it is incredible to think. back to that because back then years. it is incredible to think- back to that because back then in 2019, people were talking about borisjohnson being in powerfor a decade, the fight was over, many profiled. and then everything changed. partly it was covid pushing the tory government off course, there is no doubt about that and then partygate can be scandal around that and the behaviour of boris johnson himselfjust meant that his poll ratings starting to plummet.

when keir starmer was first leader, a lot of people did not in anyway think that in one term he could turn the labour party around. they were talking in terms of him doing five years, losing the next election and someone also come in and we don't know who that will be. for them, it has been a big surprise as well. they actually lost the hartlepool by—election, it was an absolute low point for labour and then things turned around. lots of people say keir starmer has been a lucky leader, it has come at the same time that in scotland the snp have had their own troubles, socks —— scotland is a country where labour used to rule and then were absolutely decimated at the last election and went down to one seat. all of thing —— these things have a line for him but he will say he has change the party from the party it was underjeremy corbyn. the change the party from the party it was underjeremy corbyn. the left of the labour party _ was underjeremy corbyn. the left of the labour party felt _ was underjeremy corbyn. the left of the labour party felt it _ was underjeremy corbyn. the left of the labour party felt it was _ was underjeremy corbyn. the left of the labour party felt it was in - was underjeremy corbyn. the left of the labour party felt it was in the - the labour party felt it was in the ascendancy and had a huge amount of

influence, but it feels like sir keir starmer has moved it away from that. g keir starmer has moved it away from that. �* ., ., , .,, keir starmer has moved it away from that. ., ., , ., , that. a lot of people have accused him of hypocrisy. _ that. a lot of people have accused him of hypocrisy, that _ that. a lot of people have accused him of hypocrisy, that is _ that. a lot of people have accused him of hypocrisy, that is the - that. a lot of people have accused him of hypocrisy, that is the line l him of hypocrisy, that is the line the conservatives have taken. when he went for the leadership of the labour party afterjeremy corbyn stood down, he talked about some very left—wing policies. he wanted to appeal to the membership as it was then. now of course lots of those policies have been ditched, which is why using a —— accused by some of not having any concrete views but he has taken the party much more towards the left centre of british politics. there is a question about who will be in the labour party after the general election in terms of mps, there are still some of those, jeremy corbyn standing as an independent, but there are still others who still subscribe to thejeremy corbyn agenda. subscribe to the jeremy corbyn a . enda. ~ . subscribe to the jeremy corbyn aenda. ~ ., ., subscribe to the jeremy corbyn aaenda. ~ . ., ., , ., agenda. what about the conservative pa ? i agenda. what about the conservative party? i can — agenda. what about the conservative party? i can remote _ agenda. what about the conservative party? i can remote talking _ agenda. what about the conservative party? i can remote talking with - agenda. what about the conservative party? i can remote talking with you | party? i can remote talking with you and colleagues when borisjohnson became prime minister about he

ruthlessly drove out some of the more moderate mps within the conservative party and people were saying he has taken control and reshape the party in his own image. some of these matters are now settled. it does not feel like everything with me conservative party is settled. it everything with me conservative party is settled.— party is settled. it certainly isn't. party is settled. it certainly isn't- at — party is settled. it certainly isn't. at the _ party is settled. it certainly isn't. at the time _ party is settled. it certainly isn't. at the time of - party is settled. it certainly isn't. at the time of the - party is settled. it certainly| isn't. at the time of the last election, brexit, it was off the back of brexit and we had that impasse in parliament and nothing was moving and we had been stuck for three years with theresa may trying to get a deal through so there was this impetus behind him to try and move things forward. plus he was up againstjeremy corbyn, over quite a lot of conservatives, they may be were knocking on borisjohnson but they felt they could not vote for jeremy corbyn, so he did have that in his favour which slightly inflated his majority. a lot of previous tory mps have said to me, we should be looking at the 2017 general election and comparing this with that rather than 2019 because

these were exceptional circumstances. critics of boris johnson will say he came in i did not know what he wanted to do with that power but covid did hit and that power but covid did hit and that did throw things for two years. but i think the whole partygate is such an issue that people still talk about and conservatives who are now fighting for their seats say that is when a lot of people stopped listening to the tory party and they have not gone back to them. itrailien have not gone back to them. when eo - le have not gone back to them. when peeple step _ have not gone back to them. when people stop listening _ have not gone back to them. when people stop listening to _ have not gone back to them. when people stop listening to a - have not gone back to them. when people stop listening to a political party, it is a long road to get them to tune back in. liz party, it is a long road to get them to tune back in.— party, it is a long road to get them to tune back in. liz truss then came in. to tune back in. liz truss then came in- friends — to tune back in. liz truss then came in- friends of _ to tune back in. liz truss then came in. friends of rishi _ to tune back in. liz truss then came in. friends of rishi sunak _ to tune back in. liz truss then came in. friends of rishi sunak would - to tune back in. liz truss then came in. friends of rishi sunak would sayj in. friends of rishi sunak would say if there is a defeat at the general election, we don't know that yet, but if there is they would say that those seeds were planted quite a long time ago, that this is not down to him. there are many in the party on the right of the party who absolutely want him to own that defeat if it comes and also the fact that the campaign has not been extremely successful for them. there have been so many faltering points

along the way. but that argument is all to come and i'm sure it will come after the general election. thank you very much indeed. we are putting the prime ministerial debate in context. it begins at 8:15pm at nottingham trent university, hosted by mishal husain. keir starmer, the leader of labour party, and prime minister rishi sunak will be on stage. we know from the messages we have been receiving that lots of you have been receiving that lots of you have questions about the formats these tv debates take and how it is settled and where the questions come from and who picks the audience and so on. i have been putting some of those questions to the director of journalism, jonathan munro. irate those questions to the director of journalism, jonathan munro. we and our colleagues _ journalism, jonathan munro. we and our colleagues talk _ journalism, jonathan munro. we and our colleagues talk to _ journalism, jonathan munro. we and our colleagues talk to the _ journalism, jonathan munro. we and our colleagues talk to the parties - our colleagues talk to the parties and press representatives over time. if they choose not to take part, that means they would not be a head—to—head debate of this sort. with the seven hand—out we did earlier in the campaign, some of the leaders do put up a deputy, a party

spokesman and that is fine but for this programme, it has to be read two people who could be by minister of this country and there are only two who can do that. they cannot send a stand in. this two who can do that. they cannot send a stand in.— send a stand in. as i have mentioned, _ send a stand in. as i have mentioned, hosting - send a stand in. as i have i mentioned, hosting tonight send a stand in. as i have - mentioned, hosting tonight is send a stand in. as i have _ mentioned, hosting tonight is mishal husain. at this stage in proceedings, just an hour away from the beginning of the debate, she will be going over her preparations when last time and a little while ago, we spoke to her. here we are on the stage where the debate is about to take place. tell us how it will pan out. irate debate is about to take place. tell us how it will pan out.— us how it will pan out. we have turned this _ us how it will pan out. we have turned this corner _ us how it will pan out. we have turned this corner of _ us how it will pan out. we have turned this corner of the - us how it will pan out. we have . turned this corner of the university campus into our debate stage and you want standing just between the two podiums with the leaders will be. i will be in front of them and then the audience behind and you will see quite a simple format really, a simple form of unfiltered democracy, if you like, where one by one, the question is will stand and put their questions to both the leaders and it

will be myjob to nudge them back to the question if necessary at times, to move the debate on, because obviously we want to cover as many topics is possible, we are in this crucial period of the election campaign. in nine days, one of these men will be prime minister. that is the aim, to get through a broad range of topics and allow those in the audience to have their say and ultimately to see how these two men respond. their words of course and also their tone and their demeanour with each other. the also their tone and their demeanour with each other.— with each other. the spin room at the bbc by _ with each other. the spin room at the bbc by ministerial _ with each other. the spin room at the bbc by ministerial debate - with each other. the spin room at the bbc by ministerial debate is l the bbc by ministerial debate is full of journalists the bbc by ministerial debate is full ofjournalists but increasingly there are senior politicians as well. let's speak to one of them, john usher —— jonathan ashworth of the labour party. this john usher -- jonathan ashworth of the labour party-— the labour party. this is the final debate, i have _ the labour party. this is the final debate, i have been _ the labour party. this is the final debate, i have been doing - the labour party. this is the final debate, i have been doing all- the labour party. this is the final debate, i have been doing all of. debate, i have been doing all of these... t debate, i have been doing all of these... ,, debate, i have been doing all of these... i. .,, ~ these... i saw you last week in york. these... i saw you last week in york- you _ these... i saw you last week in york. you certainly _ these... i saw you last week in york. you certainly did. - these. .. i saw you last week in

york. you certainly did. i - these... i saw you last week in york. you certainly did. i have| these... i saw you last week in - york. you certainly did. i have lost track of it all _ york. you certainly did. i have lost track of it all but _ york. you certainly did. i have lost track of it all but we _ york. you certainly did. i have lost track of it all but we are _ york. you certainly did. i have lost track of it all but we are now - york. you certainly did. i have lost track of it all but we are now in - track of it all but we are now in the endgame. and the country is facing a big choice, continue with giving route —— rishi sunakfive more years, continuing ia years of failure or turning the page and that is what this is about. by, failure or turning the page and that is what this is about. a, lot failure or turning the page and that is what this is about.— is what this is about. a lot of the olls sa is what this is about. a lot of the polls say it _ is what this is about. a lot of the polls say it is _ is what this is about. a lot of the polls say it is a _ is what this is about. a lot of the polls say it is a done _ is what this is about. a lot of the polls say it is a done deal. - is what this is about. a lot of the polls say it is a done deal. i - is what this is about. a lot of the | polls say it is a done deal. i don't believe any _ polls say it is a done deal. i don't believe any of — polls say it is a done deal. i don't believe any of these _ polls say it is a done deal. i don't believe any of these opinion - polls say it is a done deal. i don'tl believe any of these opinion polls. some people have cassidy post over but people that matters is onjuly the ath and if people want change, they have two vote for it onjuly they have two vote for it onjuly the ath. it they have two vote for it on july the ath. , ., , they have two vote for it on july the ath. ,., , , ., ., ., the ath. it sounds similar to what ou told the ath. it sounds similar to what you told me _ the ath. it sounds similar to what you told me the _ the ath. it sounds similar to what you told me the other— the ath. it sounds similar to what you told me the other week. - the ath. it sounds similar to what you told me the other week. the | you told me the other week. the labour party has been grooved about its messaging. do you think sir keir starmer will want to keep pushing the same messages or is this a chance to say something different? i think what you will hear tonight from keir starmer as he does want to change the country, not for changes sake but for the better because he does not accept that we have to have 7 million people on an nhs waiting list, he does not accept that people should be tracked out of the dream

of homeownership, children going to school hungry, these are things we can change and he will be talking about his plans to change things for the better, or continue with five more years of rishi sunak. if you listed those _ more years of rishi sunak. if you listed those ambitions _ more years of rishi sunak. if you listed those ambitions to - more years of rishi sunak. if you listed those ambitions to any - more years of rishi sunak. if you i listed those ambitions to any senior conservative, they would say they want to achieve those things but it is how you deliver them and fund them. do you think the promises that labour is making is as well costed as it should be? economists have been saying this is all based on growth protection —— projections that are not definitely going to come true. irate that are not definitely going to come true-— that are not definitely going to come true. ~ . ., , ., come true. we have had paltry growth for 14 ears come true. we have had paltry growth for 14 years under _ come true. we have had paltry growth for 14 years under the _ come true. we have had paltry growth for 14 years under the conservatives . for ia years under the conservatives and that is partly why the public finances are in such a mess, as well as the disastrous budget from liz truss. i don't accept that we can just give up on growth, we can do better than this and raise living standards, raise wages, create good well—paid jobs for young people in this country. that is an agenda that we are ambitious about and we are

proud of. they can only happen if we turn the page on ia years of the tories, changes possible and we are going to be talking about that tonight. going to be talking about that toniaht. ., ,., going to be talking about that toniuht. . , ., ,, ., , tonight. there are some professions where it is proving _ tonight. there are some professions where it is proving difficult - tonight. there are some professions where it is proving difficult to - where it is proving difficult to recruit sufficient british workers, for example in the care sector, and we know that many migrant workers are performing those roles. is that something labour is comfortable with, continuing to allow many thousands of people to come to this country to help with social care provision?— country to help with social care rovision? ~ . . ., , country to help with social care rovision? . . ., , ., provision? what we are really bad at in this country _ provision? what we are really bad at in this country after— provision? what we are really bad at in this country after 14 _ provision? what we are really bad at in this country after 14 years - provision? what we are really bad at in this country after 14 years of- in this country after ia years of the conservative says training people. we are not making full use of the apprenticeship scheme. we want to give young people skills and opportunities of training, apprenticeships, to get good well—paid jobs, that is one of our big priorities and it is one of the ways how we will grow the economy and give young people a better start in life. j and give young people a better start in life. ., and give young people a better start in life. . , ., in life. i am interested in how the labour feels _ in life. i am interested in how the labour feels about _ in life. i am interested in how the labour feels about legal- in life. i am interested in how the i labour feels about legal migration, overall net migration. for example you have lots of overseas students

coming in helping universities, the care sector reliant on many people coming to work from overseas, i am not saying that is right or wrong but are you comfortable with that approach? irate but are you comfortable with that a- roach? ~ ., ., but are you comfortable with that a- roach? ~ . ., ., but are you comfortable with that auroach? . ., ., but are you comfortable with that auroach? ~ . . ., ., approach? we want a fair system and we do not have _ approach? we want a fair system and we do not have a _ approach? we want a fair system and we do not have a fair— approach? we want a fair system and we do not have a fair system - approach? we want a fair system and we do not have a fair system at - approach? we want a fair system and we do not have a fair system at the l we do not have a fair system at the moment. we have had chaos at the borders. the asylum system is broken under the conservatives. i know that is different from legal migration but one of the reasons why there is a much legal migration into thejobs you are identifying is because we are not skilling people. if we give them skill opportunities, we can fill the vacancies in the economy and that is a different approach than the when the conservatives have adopted the last ia years. irate than the when the conservatives have adopted the last 14 years.— adopted the last 14 years. we saw each other last _ adopted the last 14 years. we saw each other last week _ adopted the last 14 years. we saw each other last week and - adopted the last 14 years. we saw each other last week and you - adopted the last 14 years. we saw each other last week and you say | adopted the last 14 years. we saw. each other last week and you say you have done a number of these dates. how do you feel about these tv moments? do you think they add to our democracy? i moments? do you think they add to our democracy?— our democracy? i think it is really im ortant our democracy? i think it is really important that — our democracy? i think it is really important that people _ our democracy? i think it is really important that people are - our democracy? i think it is really i important that people are watching these debates and engaging. the best

questions are always from members of the public. ihla questions are always from members of the ublic. ., y . questions are always from members of the ublic. ., . ., ,, questions are always from members of the public— and - questions are always from members of the public._ and of i the public. no offence taken. and of course i the public. no offence taken. and of course i will — the public. no offence taken. and of course i will be _ the public. no offence taken. and of course i will be honest _ the public. no offence taken. and of course i will be honest with - the public. no offence taken. and of course i will be honest with you, - the public. no offence taken. and of course i will be honest with you, if. course i will be honest with you, if i was not here, i would be watching the european football tonight. you wouldn't be _ the european football tonight. you wouldn't be turning on to watch the leader of your party making his case to be prime minister? i’m leader of your party making his case to be prime minister?— to be prime minister? i'm afraid i have let the _ to be prime minister? i'm afraid i have let the cat _ to be prime minister? i'm afraid i have let the cat out _ to be prime minister? i'm afraid i have let the cat out of _ to be prime minister? i'm afraid i have let the cat out of the - to be prime minister? i'm afraid i have let the cat out of the bad, i to be prime minister? i'm afraid ii have let the cat out of the bad, but i am here and i am talking about the change that labour will be bringing. 0n change that labour will be bringing. on a serious point, do you think these formats help notjust your leader but political leaders generally communicate with the public? do you think actually after the novelty has worn off, they are not that helpful? i the novelty has worn off, they are not that helpful?— not that helpful? i think it is really important _ not that helpful? i think it is really important that - not that helpful? i think it is i really important that politicians are held to account, we should be held to account and grilled by members of the public. we should explain our thinking and our policies, so they are incredibly important debates.—

policies, so they are incredibly important debates. there is no way to esca -e important debates. there is no way to escape last _ important debates. there is no way to escape last week _ important debates. there is no way to escape last week and _ important debates. there is no way to escape last week and in - important debates. there is no way to escape last week and in the i to escape last week and in the format this week, keir starmer, rishi sunak and pvc some of the other leaders, standing in front of the audiences. that other leaders, standing in front of the audiences.— the audiences. that is what democracy _ the audiences. that is what democracy is _ the audiences. that is what democracy is all _ the audiences. that is what democracy is all about. it i the audiences. that is what| democracy is all about. it is the audiences. that is what i democracy is all about. it is a precious thing. we should celebrate it and definitely have these elections at all events in the future. but in the end it is not the debate tonight, it is not the sort of interviews, it is the british public who will decide onjuly of interviews, it is the british public who will decide on july the public who will decide onjuly the ath. public who will decide on july the ath. . ., , y ., public who will decide on july the ath. . .,, ., ., ~ public who will decide on july the ath. . ., ., ath. nice to see you one thank you very much — ath. nice to see you one thank you very much indeed _ ath. nice to see you one thank you very much indeed for— ath. nice to see you one thank you very much indeed for coming i ath. nice to see you one thank you very much indeed for coming to i ath. nice to see you one thank you i very much indeed for coming to speak to us. as we have been talking about, in an hour, rishi sunak and sir keir starmer will have their final fa ce—to —fa ce starmer will have their final face—to—face confrontation before polling day. this is the prime ministerial debate on the bbc. they are likely to face allegations on both sides of gambling relating to the general election, as well as questions on the health service, immigration and they claim both

parties are engaged in a conspiracy of silence over tax and spend. let's get this latest report from chris mason. from the old market square in nottingham to the town square, village hall, city centre, suburb, where you are. for five weeks now, the election peppering at least some conversations, as the two men vying to be prime minister the weekend after next hurdle for one campaign stop to the next. from rishi sunak in a brewery in south wales, to a keir starmer breath test in a classroom in teesside. the prime minister in macclesfield, the labour leader in leicestershire this morning at a doctor's surgery. talking about the issues that have drowned out much else for the last

week. j drowned out much else for the last week. ., �* ~' , drowned out much else for the last week. ., �* ~ , , . week. i don't think this is about chanauin week. i don't think this is about changing the — week. i don't think this is about changing the rules _ week. i don't think this is about changing the rules on _ week. i don't think this is about changing the rules on betting. ij changing the rules on betting. i think the rules are clear enough. it is the behaviour of politicians and the behaviour of leaders when things come to light. aha, the behaviour of leaders when things come to light-— come to light. a greenpeace activist lent into the — come to light. a greenpeace activist lent into the row— come to light. a greenpeace activist lent into the row to _ come to light. a greenpeace activist lent into the row to make _ come to light. a greenpeace activist lent into the row to make her- come to light. a greenpeace activist lent into the row to make her pointl lent into the row to make her point having clambered aboard the conservative battle bus and requiring a ladder to get off. no ticket to ride inside or out for the prime minister today as he prepares for the debate tonight. but the home secretary went to a sports car place in nottinghamshire and was clearly frustrated the betting saga has grabbed so much attention. mr; betting saga has grabbed so much attention. y ., betting saga has grabbed so much attention. g ., ., betting saga has grabbed so much attention. g ., , attention. my position has been clear, attention. my position has been clear. the _ attention. my position has been clear, the prime _ attention. my position has been clear, the prime minister- attention. my position has been clear, the prime minister has i attention. my position has been i clear, the prime minister has been clear— clear, the prime minister has been clear on— clear, the prime minister has been clear on this, people in public service — clear on this, people in public service should focus on serving the public _ service should focus on serving the public i_ service should focus on serving the public. i would service should focus on serving the public. iwould much service should focus on serving the public. i would much prefer that in this campaign we were talking about the choice _ this campaign we were talking about the choice facing voters at this election — the choice facing voters at this election |_ the choice facing voters at this election. ., , . , election. i would bet the gambling row will probably _ election. i would bet the gambling row will probably feature - election. i would bet the gambling row will probably feature again i row will probably feature again tonight, alongside perhaps the big

ones of this campaign, the cost of living, government finances, health service, immigration. let's see. it isjust after a service, immigration. let's see. it is just after a quarter past seven. i am it is just after a quarter past seven. iam ros it is just after a quarter past seven. i am ros atkins at nottingham trent university. the spin room is filling up ahead of the bbc prime ministerial debate. it begins in under an hour. you will see eight on bbc news. you concede on bbc one, bbc news. you concede on bbc one, bbc iplayer, you can watching on the bbc iplayer, you can watching on the bbc web page and listen to it on radio four, lots of different places where you can follow this debate. and of course all the political editors across the news organisations in the uk are paying very close attention. we just saw a report from chris mason. earlier, i was speaking to the deputy political editor of the guardian.

you don't know with undecided voters, especially if you are walking without candidate from another party. maybe they just don't want to say they are all floating for the other party. but candidates feel things are in flux, there is a lot of apathy and cynicism about politicians out there. and i think that labour have a bit more of a job over the next week to make sure that they get that vote out that they seem to be showing in the polls. is that cynicism directed at a political party or against the political class? most of it is about the political class, they are all the same, there is nothing between them, and both candidates would say there is quite a lot between the two of them. the difference between what labour and the conservatives are offering. but i think the past few years, especially post—brexit, maybe the lack of trust with some of the things that borisjohnson was doing, i think has left people feeling that they have a lot to do to build back trust. there is a huge range of political experiences people are having.

you have been talking to people on their front doorsteps. and now we are waiting this evening for this really big set—piece political moment with all the cameras and the lights and a big audience and the two men who would be prime minister. what have you made of their performances in the previous debates we have seen in this campaign? i think keir starmer has had a lot to learn from the mistakes he made in the first debate. he seemed very keen to stay on message and stick to the script and he was not very nimble in terms of coming back at the attacks that rishi sunak was planting. it is odd to say this about the leader of the opposition but the prime minister often feels like the underdog and we are looking to see whether he can do better. and i think that... i'm sure, we hear that keir starmer�*s team have learned from that to not let rishi sunak land those attacks, like the £2,000 tax rise that he did very successfully kind of convey in that first debate without keir starmer

really rebutting him until later on. i think we will see a keir starmer who wants to get out on the front foot earlier on that sort of thing. thank you very much for making time to speak to us. some people would say to say lost cause for rishi sunak and your conservative colleagues. would you put it in those terms?— colleagues. would you put it in those terms? no, this is my 11th election campaign _ those terms? no, this is my 11th election campaign and _ those terms? no, this is my 11th election campaign and tenth i those terms? no, this is my 11th i election campaign and tenth general election, and in every single one, the polls have been wrong and that the polls have been wrong and that the moment, nearly half of the population have not made up their minds. i have been on the streets today talking to people and they are still asking questions and still want to know for example what labour tax plans are, they don't think they have an answer yet. we have a brand—new piece of news today with the labour shadow chief secretary, the labour shadow chief secretary,

the man responsible for balancing the man responsible for balancing the books, saying that actually they intend to spend hundreds of billions, that is £10,000 from a family, a huge amount of money. the point is, the debate is going back and forwards.— point is, the debate is going back and forwards. . . , ., and forwards. leaving the details of that aside, and forwards. leaving the details of that aside. as _ and forwards. leaving the details of that aside, as you _ and forwards. leaving the details of that aside, as you are _ and forwards. leaving the details of that aside, as you are aware, i'm i that aside, as you are aware, i'm sure, the poll tracker has been showing a significant gap between labour and conservatives for some time and in recent weeks there has been this interesting strategy from senior conservatives largely saying let's try and keep a labour majority down. have —— do you think grant shapps has been getting that right? we don't know what the outcome will be, a few postal votes have been cast but most will be cast onjuly the ath. but there is a risk of course of a big labour majority. what the consequence of that will be as important for people to consider when they cast their vote. a number of my constituents are worried about their taxes, their pensions and so on. it'll be much easierfor a

labour government to change all those things irrespective any nominal promises if they got a big majority so of course that is possible but you asked me a question, is it over, that is not quite the same question and the answer that is no because the answer to those questions will dictate the outcome. ., . , ., . outcome. you have been involved in a treat outcome. you have been involved in a great number — outcome. you have been involved in a great number of _ outcome. you have been involved in a great number of campaigns, - outcome. you have been involved in a great number of campaigns, so i outcome. you have been involved in a great number of campaigns, so you i great number of campaigns, so you know what a successful campaign looks like. how do you assess how rishi sunak and his team have gone about making the case to the country? a lot of people are suggesting it has not gone to plan. they never do. that is the other thing about elections.— they never do. that is the other thing about elections. some go to ian thing about elections. some go to [an more thing about elections. some go to plan more than — thing about elections. some go to plan more than others. _ thing about elections. some go to plan more than others. the i thing about elections. some go to plan more than others. the last . thing about elections. some go to i plan more than others. the last one i heard plan more than others. the last one i heard that — plan more than others. the last one i heard that when _ plan more than others. the last one i heard that when sort _ plan more than others. the last one i heard that when sort of _ plan more than others. the last one| i heard that when sort of seamlessly as it were were —— was the tony blair campaign in 1997, none of the others have. there were literally problems in every campaign on both sides. but problems in every campaign on both sides. �* ., ., , ., problems in every campaign on both sides. �* ., ,, sides. but how do you assess... every political — sides. but how do you assess... every political leader _ sides. but how do you assess... every political leader has - sides. but how do you assess... every political leader has a i every political leader has a decision about which messages to emphasise, it is not possible to

throw 20 messages at the electorate, how do you assess rishi sunak and his choice of emphasis? the how do you assess rishi sunak and his choice of emphasis?— how do you assess rishi sunak and his choice of emphasis? the thing he has tried to — his choice of emphasis? the thing he has tried to say _ his choice of emphasis? the thing he has tried to say the _ his choice of emphasis? the thing he has tried to say the loudest, - has tried to say the loudest, bearing in mind the leaders don't always control the debate, that is the point of this, a single yarn tax policy. he is saying in essence as tories we generally try and reduce taxes, they are too high now, we will agree on that. labour are telling you they will not go to and thatis telling you they will not go to and that is not true... the telling you they will not go to and that is not true. . ._ telling you they will not go to and that is not true... the reason they are too high. _ that is not true... the reason they are too high. to — that is not true... the reason they are too high, to use _ that is not true... the reason they are too high, to use your - that is not true... the reason they are too high, to use your phrase, | that is not true... the reason they. are too high, to use your phrase, is because prime minister conservative —— conservative prime minister is put them there. taste -- conservative prime minister is put them there.— put them there. we took over a massively _ put them there. we took over a massively indebted _ put them there. we took over a massively indebted country i put them there. we took over a | massively indebted country from gordon brown and his...- massively indebted country from gordon brown and his... surely you are far enough _ gordon brown and his... surely you are far enough into _ gordon brown and his... surely you are far enough into stop _ gordon brown and his... surely you| are far enough into stop referencing gordon brown. that are far enough into stop referencing gordon idrown-— gordon brown. that is where it started. gordon brown. that is where it started- we — gordon brown. that is where it started. we start _ gordon brown. that is where it started. we start with - gordon brown. that is where it started. we start with an i gordon brown. that is where it i started. we start with an indebted country and then you have had of course covid and it cost nearly half a trillion, £500 billion, to protect

jobs. i don't think the people in the country, my constituents certainly, would not have wanted to not have furlough and protected those jobs and there is a price for that. we all accept the price, we have got to get it down in our view, we have to get it down for ordinary people. pensioners i spoke to today have not got the money to pay extra taxes and extra in 10,000, whatever it turns out to be that labour's plans are. he is right to make that argument. he is right to say to people you want to look to the future, who is going to reduce your taxes until will increase your taxes and that is what my constituents care about. d0 and that is what my constituents care about-— and that is what my constituents care about. i. ,, . care about. do you think a debate like this is — care about. do you think a debate like this is a _ care about. do you think a debate like this is a real _ care about. do you think a debate like this is a real opportunity i care about. do you think a debate like this is a real opportunity for i like this is a real opportunity for both keir starmer and rishi sunak to get these messages across? yes. both keir starmer and rishi sunak to get these messages across?- get these messages across? yes, i do. this whole _ get these messages across? yes, i do. this whole point. _ get these messages across? yes, i do. this whole point. you - get these messages across? yes, i do. this whole point. you have i get these messages across? yes, i do. this whole point. you have gotj do. this whole point. you have got nearly half... the polls you are referring to, they all have to recognise that nearly half of people don't quite —— answer the question,

they have not made up their mind. they are listening to debates like this with their own interests in mind. that might be taxes, it might be pensions, it might be the cost of their houses, it might be the cost of their cars, all those things matter, what happens to their children and parents. they are all key to them, which is why rishi sunak is right to press the domestic issues, the issues which relate to everybody, namely tax. let issues, the issues which relate to everybody, namely tax.— issues, the issues which relate to everybody, namely tax. let me ask ou about everybody, namely tax. let me ask you about some — everybody, namely tax. let me ask you about some of— everybody, namely tax. let me ask you about some of the _ everybody, namely tax. let me ask you about some of the core - you about some of the core conservative messages of recent years, on europe, net migration, on taxation, isn't the problem and nigel farage has been handling highlighting these things, the conservatives have not been sticking to their promises. taste conservatives have not been sticking to their promises.— to their promises. we can deal with an of to their promises. we can deal with any of those _ to their promises. we can deal with any of those in _ to their promises. we can deal with any of those in any _ to their promises. we can deal with any of those in any order— to their promises. we can deal with any of those in any order you i to their promises. we can deal with any of those in any order you like. i any of those in any order you like. but nigel of course has the luxury of never having been in government for seven parliamentary campaigns,

lost everyone. he is the man any bar, you can tell everyone how to do theirjob. the truth is of course... but he is right on net migration. but he is right on net migration. but last year, the boats to pick the illegal element of it were cut by 30% because of the albanian issue being taken out. that was an explicit policy. and again we are putting in more money, more resources and what to labour come up with? i resources and what to labour come up with? . . ,~ resources and what to labour come up with? . . i. . with? i am asking you about net miaration with? i am asking you about net migration and _ with? i am asking you about net migration and in _ with? i am asking you about net migration and in the _ with? i am asking you about net migration and in the 2019 i with? i am asking you about net i migration and in the 2019 manifesto was a promise that it would bring this down. ., , ., was a promise that it would bring this down. . , . ., was a promise that it would bring this down. . , . . , this down. that is a fair point but look what happened. _ this down. that is a fair point but look what happened. you - this down. that is a fair point but look what happened. you had i this down. that is a fair point but i look what happened. you had ukraine, large numbers of ukrainians coming here, you had hong kong, large numbers coming here, and of course afghanistan. that is over 300,000 people. afghanistan. that is over 300,000 --eole. ., afghanistan. that is over 300,000 neale, ., ., afghanistan. that is over 300,000 people. you also took decisions about dependence _ people. you also took decisions about dependence for _ people. you also took decisions about dependence for students | people. you also took decisions i about dependence for students and on care workers. then;r

about dependence for students and on care workers-— care workers. they have been brought down by hundreds _ care workers. they have been brought down by hundreds of— care workers. they have been brought down by hundreds of thousands i care workers. they have been brought down by hundreds of thousands this . down by hundreds of thousands this year. the decisions in recent time. going back to the illegal migration, there are all sorts of decisions, whether it is rwanda, the decision to confine or keep in detention centres, labourwill to confine or keep in detention centres, labour will scrap all of that and you will have a quarter of a million more coming under labour. they might dispute that. then;r a million more coming under labour. they might dispute that. they might, if the were they might dispute that. they might, if they were here, _ they might dispute that. they might, if they were here, i _ they might dispute that. they might, if they were here, i would _ they might dispute that. they might, if they were here, i would talk- they might dispute that. they might, if they were here, i would talk to i if they were here, i would talk to them. if they were here, i would talk to them, ., if they were here, i would talk to them. ., ,, ., ., ., , ., them. some of the shadow cabinet are here and thank— them. some of the shadow cabinet are here and thank you _ them. some of the shadow cabinet are here and thank you very _ them. some of the shadow cabinet are here and thank you very much - them. some of the shadow cabinet are here and thank you very much for- here and thank you very much for joining us. straight to my colleague, elsewhere at nottingham trent university. what is happening? keir at nottingham trent university. what is happening?— is happening? keir starmer has arrived. the _ is happening? keir starmer has arrived. the first _ is happening? keir starmer has arrived. the first of _ is happening? keir starmer has arrived. the first of the - is happening? keir starmer has arrived. the first of the leaders j arrived. the first of the leaders taking this evening has arrived. he

was greeted by the director—general, who is also here with the director ofjournalism, jonathan munro, who of journalism, jonathan munro, who we ofjournalism, jonathan munro, who we heard from earlier. they are now standing, making chitchat, as they have to, waiting for the other person that is going to be taking part tonight, which causes rishi sunak. keir starmer has gone into the debate. basically they walk up the debate. basically they walk up the stairs you can see year into the university and then they go across a short courtyard, where they walk through, and that goes into the area that we have made into the debate studio. you may have seen some pictures, it is an intimate affair in there. i went in there earlier. around 150 members of the audience who are in there. and then there are two podiums quite close together, it has to be said, and then we will also have mishal husain. the gates have opened, which may be a sign. i

am keeping my only row that i can see leading to the university, which is where the other cars have come in, so we are expecting the prime minister rishi sunak to arrive shortly. i was saying that the debate itself is all audience questions, so the difference between these debates and some of the interviews that you have heard the leaders do over and over these weeks of the campaign is that it is often a political correspondent who is asking the questions but tonight it is the audience that are asking the questions. you may ask how we selected the audience. we gave our job to a polling company, who have chosen the audience for us. it is made up of around the same amount of people who say that they are going to vote conservative at the same amount for the labour party, along with some undecided voters as well. that is how the audience is made up. as i say, the readers will be standing at the podiums. they will be no opening statements this time.

mishal husain who hosting the event will get straight into those first questions from the audience and she is hoping to lead the debate through so that they actually answer the questions because sometimes with these debates, the fact is that they go off on a message that they want to give you, rather than actually answering the question, so she will be hoping to do that. thank you very much indeed, that is nicky schiller there, part of the bbc news team here at nottingham trent university ahead of this prime ministerial debate and it is 730 so we are 45 minutes away and if you are just we are 45 minutes away and if you arejustjoining me, iam ros atkins, it with you in the spin room, where the media covers to watch these political set pieces and

both labour and the conservatives have senior politicians coming here to nottingham trent university and i'm not sure whether they will watch the debate but certainly after the debate which finishes at 930 people coming here and speak to journalists and you get huddles around the different figures as they give the analysis of what we heard and the journalists have lots of questions about what they've heard too so that is what will happen and the debate is what will happen and the debate is between 815 and 930 and you can follow it through any number of bbc outlets and then at 930, laura kuenssberg and clive my re—will be live to hear reaction from the spin room and then there is the news at ten as usual at ten o'clock. —— laura kuenssberg and clive myrie. and if you want to follow it online, you can do that through the bbc news website. hundreds of thousands of young people are eligible to vote for the first time in this election,

so all of