this is bbc news, we will have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. it is hard to overstate the levels of turmoil and uncertainty in french politics right now. thanks to president macron�*s early dissolution of the national assembly, france faces two rounds of voting in the next two weeks, after which parliamentary power could be in the hands of marine le pen�*s far—right national rally party. what would that mean for france, for europe? well, my guest is national rally member of the european parliament,

fabrice leggeri. fabrice leggeri in paris, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for the invitation. it's great to have you on the show. let's start with your own personal political choice. you were a french bureaucrat, then you went to brussels to run an eu agency, then you decided to enter partisan politics not very long ago, and you joined the national rally party. what was it about marine le pen�*s party that attracted you?

well, in fact, as the former executive director of frontex, the european border and coastguard agency, i realised that at some point brussels and especially the european commission didn't want to properly control the external borders of the european union, so we had to face — and we still have to face — massive illegal immigration flows. and what i realised — that, officially, my mandate, my mission was officially to create a european corps of border and coastguard with uniforms and weapons to support european member states, to support them in protecting the external borders against illegal migration but also criminality. and the european commissioner at that time, madamejohansson,

in charge of migration and justice and home affairs, she told me, "why do you need weapons and uniforms? "migrants come for love. whether you like it or not, "while border guards�* job is to welcome migrants, "europe is an ageing continent. "whether you like it or not, you have to welcome migrants." i see. sol... hang on. your contention, then, is it, that your decision to enter party politics — and now you're an mep for marine le pen�*s party, the national rally — it's all about immigration and stopping immigration, illegal immigration, is it? that, for you, is the central point of your political career? no, no, it's not the central point, but let's say that this incident triggered my decision to start being a politician, because i also could realise that the european union institutions are not democratic enough.

the european commission and european commission bureaucrats totally ignore and bypass what real people want, what citizens, what european citizens want. and many times, i could see that national governments could not always...stop the commission when the commission was heading in a direction that was not the direction that national politicians and nations wanted. so let's say that this... i find your position particularly fascinating, because as a former bureaucrat and an official of the eu, obviously you were wedded to the rule of law. you know, it's a clear commitment if you work inside government. but it seems to me that now, with the election looming for the national assembly in france, your party, led byjordan bardella and marine le pen, is committed to transgressing both the laws

of france and the laws of the eu in your anti—immigration policies. no, no, not at all. we are not transgressing. we want to implement the law as it is. and, well, let's say that my career started in the ministry of home affairs in france. so, my experience then in the ministry of defence, my experience in the ministry of foreign affairs, so my experience has been based on, let's say, state powers. so i have the experience of what is sovereignty and what is the rule of law, what is the interest of a state as an actor but also how a state can and must protect its citizens. but let's just run through a few laws and just see if you accept them. for example, in france, there is the so—called droit du sol, which is the right of children of those born to foreign parents

born in france to get french citizenship when they turn 18. it seems that your party is determined to end that. am i right? we want to change that because now it is misused by illegal migrants. we need also to amend the law, the french law, in order to avoid that illegal migrants... there are a host of legal experts who say that you'll run into problems with the french constitution if you try to do that. yeah, but our plan, our programme, political programme, is that ifjordan bardella is appointed prime minister injuly, in a couple of days, then we will start changing the french legislation as far as we can, which means that we need to have an absolute majority in the national assembly. and with an absolute majority in the national assembly, we can start changing the law and voting different amendments,

for example, to that law and to migration laws. but we can then, of course, only implement the whole programme that we have. if there is a referendum in france to change the constitution — we have a written constitution in france that can be amended, there are different procedures for that — and what my political party proposes... that clearly isn't going to be easy. some of the things that mr bardella and others in your party say seem to be very far from what is politically practical. there's also a question of morality. i mean, france, of course, famously, is committed to egalite. i wonder how much egalite there is whenjordan bardella says, as he did a couple of days ago, quote, "our compatriots of foreign origin who work, who pay tax, who respect the law, who love our country, have nothing to fear from our policies." the clear implication

of that was that people who perhaps are unemployed, who live on benefits, who aren't altogether in love with france, have something to fear. no, but what we are saying is that we want to... of course we want to reward the persons who comply with the french laws, and if they are...foreigners... but surely you want all french citizens to comply with the law? why isolate and pick upon those who are, quote—unquote, "of foreign origin"? they're as much citizens as you. no. we are not... jordan bardella was talking, because i remember there was a question asked by a person who had a residence permit, who is not a french citizen and is not an eu citizen, and wanted just to know what's going to happen. and the answer is very clear. if foreign citizens have a legal stay in france, so they have the residence permit

and they comply with our law, if they are not a security threat, then of course they will have the residence permit that will be extended and they have nothing to fear, as mr bardella said. it's an ominous phrase, isn't it? and ijust wonder, when we go further into this question of egalite, how you think citizens of france who are of, quote—unquote, "foreign origin" are going to feel about your words on social housing and employment, where you say you are going to favour and prioritise the interests of native french people. no, what we say is that we want to promote this as the "preference national". it means that we want that french citizens have access to those social housing, because the fact right now is that most of this possibility to get social housing is in fact, well, only for...migrants,

people who are not french. and sometimes some of them arrived illegally... i have to say, mr leggeri, maybe some people in france will worry about your commitment to adhering to laws, both french and international, when they consider how you left your post at frontex in brussels — as you say, the agency responsible for border security in the eu. this is what one left mep, cornelia ernst, said after your resignation. she said, "leggeri personally had an active role in frontex's complicity in fundamental rights violations and the cover—up of this complicity, including lying to the european parliament." you're still being investigated inside france, aren't you? no, this is not investigated, and this is completely wrong, and this is just kind of political bashing. this is used by the leftists against those who want

to protect the borders. the facts are very simple and very easy to understand. the commission investigation body was used for political purposes to kick me out of the agency. and then, because i supported greece, i supported greece in protecting the border, and there was...in fact... yeah, what the greeks are accused of doing is pushing back migrant boats away from their national waters, even sometimes picking up migrants who'd made it onto land on greek islands and then forcing them out to sea. and some video evidence even suggests that some of them may have been thrown into the sea. you were the boss of frontex at the time, and the allegation is you covered that up. no, no, no, i have not covered that. this is completely wrong. but what we did, we agreed in the operational plan that we can support interception in the operational area. and the interception is a legal

concept while pushback is not a legal concept. pushback is a political propaganda used by leftist ngos and people who just want to undermine the border protection. 0k. and the consequence of that is that you have, in the uk, many migrants coming illegally because the eu external border is not properly protected. yeah. president macron, just a couple of days ago, talked about the possibility of civil war. and he was directly referencing the national rally, your party's policies on immigration, immigrants and crime. he said, "it's based on stigmatisation and division." he said, "the solutions of the far—right "are out of the question. "they categorise people in terms of religion or origin. "it will lead to division and to civil war." what is your response to that? a president should not speak like this because the president, in the french system, the president is the authority that

keeps the country united. and a president should not use the word civil war. it doesn't match with the reality. it doesn't match with the reality that french society now is experiencing. and it doesn't match with our policy. what he says, what president macron says about our programme is completely wrong. the difference for us is simply that when people are french citizens, they are all equal and we are not... there is no stigmatisation, but this is simply political propaganda. forgive me. i have to say, i don't know if you're aware of some of your fellow candidates for the national rally. i've been looking at a few of them. i could quote you a few examples. for example, a candidate of your party in the pyrenees, marie—christine sorin, has posted that, quote, "not all civilisations are equal. "some are below bestiality in the evolutionary chain." you've got another colleague,

francoise billaud in cotes d'armor, who has clearly paid tribute on social media to marshal petain, the world war ii french collaborationist with the nazis. these are people who are standing for election alongside you in the national rally. well, the candidates had to be selected very quickly, because every political party was short of time to select candidates. and some candidates... but are you comfortable being in the same party, seeking elected office at the same national assembly with these people? what i can tell you is that there were some candidates whose statements were not in line with our ethics and our political line, have been kicked out. and so they are either... i don't know both candidates you mentioned, but i'm sure

that this is not in line with our political line, and this is not in line with our ethics. leave aside the morality issue here. there's also a practicality issue when it comes to immigration. giorgia meloni, who is a right—wing leader in italy — who in some ways is comparable in some parts of policy to your national rally in france — she has had to accept reality on immigration. she came pledging to massively cut immigration, to end illegal immigration. she hasn't ended illegal immigration. and not only that, she's now accepted that italy needs for its economy around 800,000 immigrants per year. isn't the truth that france too needs immigrants? your party just won't accept it. well, first, i have to clarify that our political line is that if a european member state decides that it needs legal migration for economic reasons, every member state is free to decide