of voting in the next two weeks, after which parliamentary power could be in the hands of marine le pen�*s far—right national rally party. what would that mean for france, for europe? well, my guest is national rally member of the european parliament, fabrice leggeri. is the stability of france at stake? fabrice leggeri in paris, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for the invitation. it's great to have you on the show. let's start with your own

personal political choice. you were a french bureaucrat, then you went to brussels to run an eu agency, then you decided to enter partisan politics not very long ago, and you joined the national rally party. what was it about marine le pen�*s party that attracted you? well, in fact, as the former executive director of frontex, the european border and coastguard agency, i realised that at some point brussels and especially the european commission didn't want to properly control the external borders of the european union, so we had to face — and we still have to face — massive illegal immigration flows. and what i realised — that, officially, my mandate, my mission was officially to create a european corps of border and coastguard with uniforms and weapons to support european member states, to support them in protecting the external borders against illegal migration but also criminality.

and the european commissioner at that time, madamejohansson, in charge of migration and justice and home affairs, she told me, "why do you need weapons and uniforms? "migrants come for love. whether you like it or not, "while border guards�* job is to welcome migrants, "europe is an ageing continent. "whether you like it or not, you have to welcome migrants." i see. sol... hang on. your contention, then, is it, that your decision to enter party politics — and now you're an mep for marine le pen�*s party, the national rally — it's all about immigration and stopping immigration, illegal immigration, is it?

that, for you, is the central point of your political career? no, no, it's not the central point, but let's say that this incident triggered my decision to start being a politician, because i also could realise that the european union institutions are not democratic enough. the european commission and european commission bureaucrats totally ignore and bypass what real people want, what citizens, what european citizens want. and many times, i could see that national governments could not always...stop the commission when the commission was heading in a direction that was not the direction that national politicians and nations wanted. so let's say that this... i find your position particularly fascinating,

because as a former bureaucrat and an official of the eu, obviously you were wedded to the rule of law. you know, it's a clear commitment if you work inside government. but it seems to me that now, with the election looming for the national assembly in france, your party, led byjordan bardella and marine le pen, is committed to transgressing both the laws of france and the laws of the eu in your anti—immigration policies. no, no, not at all. we are not transgressing. we want to implement the law as it is. and, well, let's say that my career started in the ministry of home affairs in france.

so, my experience then in the ministry of defence, my experience in the ministry of foreign affairs, so my experience has been based on, let's say, state powers. so i have the experience of what is sovereignty and what is the rule of law, what is the interest of a state as an actor but also how a state can and must protect its citizens. but let's just run through a few laws and just see if you accept them. for example, in france, there is the so—called droit du sol, which is the right of children of those born to foreign parents born in france to get french citizenship when they turn 18. it seems that your party is determined to end that. am i right? we want to change that because now it is misused by illegal migrants. we need also to amend the law, the french law, in order to avoid that illegal migrants... there are a host of legal experts who say that you'll run into problems with the french constitution if you try to do that. yeah, but our plan, our programme, political programme, is that ifjordan bardella is appointed prime minister injuly, in a couple of days, then we will start changing the french legislation as far

as we can, which means that we need to have an absolute majority in the national assembly. and with an absolute majority in the national assembly, we can start changing the law and voting different amendments, for example, to that law and to migration laws. but we can then, of course, only implement the whole programme that we have. if there is a referendum in france to change the constitution — we have a written constitution in france that can be amended, there are different procedures for that — and what my political party proposes... that clearly isn't going to be easy. some of the things that mr bardella and others in your party say seem to be very far from what is politically practical. there's also a question of morality.

i mean, france, of course, famously, is committed to egalite. i wonder how much egalite there is whenjordan bardella says, as he did a couple of days ago, quote, "our compatriots of foreign origin who work, who pay tax, "who respect the law, who love our country, "have nothing to fear from our policies." the clear implication of that was that people who perhaps are unemployed, who live on benefits, who aren't altogether in love with france, have something to fear. no, but what we are saying is that we want to... of course we want to reward the persons who comply with the french laws, and if they are...foreigners... but surely you want all french citizens to comply with the law? why isolate and pick upon those who are, quote—unquote, "of foreign origin"? they're as much citizens as you. no. we are not... jordan bardella was talking, because i remember there was a question asked by a person who had a residence permit, who is not a french citizen and is not an eu citizen, and wanted just to know what's going to happen.

and the answer is very clear. if foreign citizens have a legal stay in france, so they have the residence permit and they comply with our law, if they are not a security threat, then of course they will have the residence permit that will be extended and they have nothing to fear, as mr bardella said. it's an ominous phrase, isn't it? and ijust wonder, when we go further into this question of egalite, how you think citizens of france who are of, quote—unquote, "foreign origin" are going to feel about your words on social housing and employment, where you say you are going to favour and prioritise the interests of native french people.

no, what we say is that we want to promote this as the "preference national". it means that we want that french citizens have access to those social housing, because the fact right now is that most of this possibility to get social housing is in fact, well, only for...migrants, people who are not french. and sometimes some of them arrived illegally... i have to say, mr leggeri, maybe some people in france will worry about your commitment to adhering to laws, both french and international, when they consider how you left your post at frontex in brussels — as you say, the agency responsible for border security in the eu. this is what one left mep, cornelia ernst, said after your resignation. she said, "leggeri personally had an active role "in frontex's complicity

in fundamental rights "violations and the cover—up of this complicity, "including lying to the european parliament." you're still being investigated inside france, aren't you? no, this is not investigated, and this is completely wrong, and this is just kind of political bashing. this is used by the leftists against those who want to protect the borders. the facts are very simple and very easy to understand. the commission investigation body was used for political purposes to kick me out of the agency. and then, because i supported greece, i supported greece in protecting the border, and there was...in fact... yeah, what the greeks are accused of doing is pushing back migrant boats away from their national waters, even sometimes picking up migrants who'd made it onto land on greek islands and then forcing them out to sea. and some video evidence even suggests that some of them may have been thrown into the sea.

you were the boss of frontex at the time, and the allegation is you covered that up. no, no, no, i have not covered that. this is completely wrong. but what we did, we agreed in the operational plan that we can support interception in the operational area. and the interception is a legal concept while pushback is not a legal concept. pushback is a political propaganda used by leftist ngos and people who just want to undermine the border protection. 0k. and the consequence of that is that you have, in the uk, many migrants coming illegally because the eu external border is not properly protected. yeah. president macron, just a couple of days ago, talked about the possibility of civil war. and he was directly referencing the national rally, your party's policies on immigration, immigrants and crime. he said, "it's based on stigmatisation and division."

he said, "the solutions of the far—right "are out of the question. "they categorise people in terms of religion or origin. "it will lead to division and to civil war." what is your response to that? a president should not speak like this because the president, in the french system, the president is the authority that keeps the country united. and a president should not use the word civil war. it doesn't match with the reality. it doesn't match with the reality that french society now is experiencing. and it doesn't match with our policy. what he says, what president macron says about our programme is completely wrong. the difference for us is simply that when people are french citizens, they are all equal and we are not... there is no stigmatisation, but this is simply political propaganda.

forgive me. i have to say, i don't know if you're aware of some of your fellow candidates for the national rally. i've been looking at a few of them. i could quote you a few examples. for example, a candidate of your party in the pyrenees, marie—christine sorin, has posted that, quote, "not all civilisations are equal. "some are below bestiality in the evolutionary chain." you've got another colleague, francoise billaud in cotes d'armor, who has clearly paid tribute on social media to marshal petain, the world war ii french collaborationist with the nazis. these are people who are standing for election alongside you in the national rally. well, the candidates had to be selected very quickly, because every political party was short of time to select candidates. and some candidates... but are you comfortable being in the same party, seeking elected office at the same national assembly with these people?

what i can tell you is that there were some candidates whose statements were not in line with our ethics and our political line, have been kicked out. and so they are either... i don't know both candidates you mentioned, but i'm sure that this is not in line with our political line, and this is not in line with our ethics. leave aside the morality issue here. there's also a practicality issue when it comes to immigration. giorgia meloni, who is a right—wing leader in italy — who in some ways is comparable in some parts of policy to your national rally in france — she has had to accept reality on immigration. she came pledging to massively cut immigration, to end illegal immigration. she hasn't ended illegal immigration. and not only that, she's now accepted that italy needs for its economy around 800,000 immigrants per year. isn't the truth that france too needs immigrants? your partyjust

won't accept it. well, first, i have to clarify that our political line is that if a european member state decides that it needs legal migration for economic reasons, every member state is free to decide on its own. and this is our political line. what we don't want, that the european commission decides on behalf of member states. and this is exactly what's going to happen... but with respect, france has just signed a migration pact alongside all the other members of the eu. that's signed and sealed. it's too late for you to stop that. yeah. but what is extremely interesting is that two days after this pact on asylum and migration was adopted, 15 member states sent a letter. so, ministers, 15 ministers sent a letter to the european

commission asking, in fact, to focus now on combating illegal migration upstream, so before migrants arrive in europe, and especially with the proposal that the people in need of international protection, so let's say refugees or asylum—seekers, should be allowed to lodge an asylum application in consulates abroad. so meaning, and this is exactly what my political party proposes, that people in need of international protection should be allowed to go to consulates of european union member states, and there, they would lodge an application. this would be much safer for them. they would not be the victims of criminals and traffickers. and then if their application is considered as well—founded, then they would be transported decently in a dignified way to europe instead of being the victim of traffickers and then being brought to europe illegally by ngos.

mr leggeri, we've talked a lot about immigration, but there's many other planks to the national rally offer to the french public. quickly, i need to go through a few of them. let's talk about the economy. you've got all sorts of ambitious proposals to put to the french people. you say you're going to roll back macron�*s change to the pension retirement age. you're going to roll it back to 62. you're going to slash vat on fuel and energy to help french households. you're going to cut payroll taxes, you're going to do all sorts of things. the montaigne institute says it's going to cost around 100 billion euros a year. that is money that france doesn't have. and the leading french economist 0livier blanchard

recently said, "the national rally programme "is fiscally irresponsible. "gifts cost money," he says, "and the money simply isn't there." you're going to crash the economy. no, the current situation is the crash. but this is the legacy from president macron. can you imagine that france has now more than three thousand billion euro debts? and one third of that was accumulated in the recent years under president macron... but you're going to make it worse, mr leggeri, much worse. no, we are not... we are not going to make it worse, because we have... first, we need an assessment of the situation, because we need an audit. and we are not sure that this is all transparent, what is the real situation. so first, before starting really to revise all the policies, we want to conduct an audit. and based on that assessment, we will see what is financially possible, sustainable and what is not.

ah! so maybe some of these promises you've made, you won't keep. but that's an interesting point on economics. let's talk international affairs before we finish. i recently spoke tojean—noel barrot, the europe minister in macron�*s government, mr attal�*s government. he said this. he said jordan bardella — that is your party president — he didn't vote for sanctions against russia, he didn't vote for resolutions denouncing the detention and assassination of alexei navalny, he didn't vote for the military support for ukraine, he didn't vote for the support of ukrainian refugees. all of this in the european parliament. that is the record of your party leader. are you still basically a pro—putin, pro—russia party? this is again political bashing by macron�*s government. but we are very clear on ukraine. we are very clear on the fact that russia attacked ukraine and that we in the national rally, we want ukraine to be able to defend itself against the russian aggression, we want... with respect, i'vejust

heard mr bardella say that he would not be giving ukraine missiles, long—range rockets. yeah, but we don't want to escalate the conflict. we want ukraine to be able to resist and to show up in the peace conference in a very good shape, from a military perspective, so that we can then avoid escalating the war, but we can, at the international level, make sure that ukraine arrives in good shape and can really negotiate a peace and would not be obliged to accept conditions which are not acceptable from a ukrainian perspective. 0k... see, i reckon a lot of people around the world are trying to work out what a france led by a national assembly government that is national rally, what it would mean for europe and for the world.

just a couple of things i've noted. one, the national rally says it will end the idea of franco—german cooperation at the heart of eu policy—making. it seems you've no interest in working with the scholz government in germany. but also when it comes to the us election in november, mr bardella said recently, "my heart leans towards donald trump," so that's the kind of france we can expect, is it? well, first of all, france wants to remain... we want to remain members of the european union. we want to remain in the eurozone. we want to remain but improve the schengen free movement area. we are members of the north atlantic alliance, and we want to be members of the alliance. we don't want to change now the integrated command, because there is a war... well, you do. you do. mr bardella has said that as soon as the ukraine war is over, he still wants to take france out of the integrated

command structure of nato. that tells us something. this is what de gaulle did in 1966. then we came back. for the time being, let's see first how the situation can be solved regarding the security of ukraine, but we will be trustful allies in nato and in the european union. we don't want to change this. and in a word, because we are out of time, but this is important — if you do not win an outright majority, will you work with other parties in a coalition government or not? well, jordan bardella will only accept being prime minister if he can rely on an absolute majority in the national assembly. we have, of course, representatives who are members of the rassemblement national, national rally. we have an alliance now with the les republicains.

so this political party seems to be split. but we will rely on those members of the parliament, the french parliament. but we need an absolute majority. otherwise it's impossible forjordan bardella to really be active and to really act. and this is what we want. we know that french people want that the country is properly managed. and for that, we need an absolute majority. mr leggeri, we have to end there. thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk from paris. thank you. thank you very much.

hello there. wednesday was the warmest day of the year so far, with 31 celsius reached in wisley in surrey. but that's the last of these sorts of temperatures for now. it does look like for the rest of the week, into the weekend, it's going to be turning fresher for all areas and the winds will be picking up as well. but we'll still have quite a bit of sunshine around. now, the change is all courtesy of this area of low pressure, pretty deep for the time of year, pushing to the north and the west of the country, where it'll bring significant winds and some rain. but the cold front associated with it will spread across the country, pushing the warm and humid air back out to the near continent. this is the cold front — barely anything on it as it reaches southern and eastern england. but it will bring a change to the air temperature. plenty of sunshine here, but windy with showers or long spells of rain for north—west england, north wales, northern ireland and into scotland. so temperatures here much lower than of late. highs of 2a to 25 degrees across the southeast. but warmer along north sea coasts, as we've lost the onshore breeze.

but it will be a very blustery end to the day for thursday. gales across the far west of scotland, far north of northern ireland, showers or longer spells of rain, whereas i think as we head through thursday nights across much of england and wales, it should be largely dry with some clear spells. lighter winds the further south that you are. but it will be a cooler night to come for all, with temperatures 10 to around 12 degrees. so as we head into friday, then, we see that area of low pressure pulling away from the north of the uk, but it will take its time. it stays quite windy, blustery, with outbreaks of rain across scotland, whereas for england and wales, closer to a ridge of high pressure. so the further north that you are, it will be windier with showers or longer spells of rain. the further south that you are, variable cloud, but some good spells of sunshine. and i think for many, it will stay dry on friday. temperatures perhaps reaching around 23, maybe 2a degrees. otherwise, it's the mid to high teens further north, so you can see that cooler trend is continuing. into the start of the weekend, bit of a question mark on it, but it looks like this area of weather fronts will bring

thicker cloud and outbreaks of rain to the central slice of the uk through the day. to the north of it, it stays quite blustery with sunshine and showers, feeling cool. but some good sunny spells across the south and southeast could put temperatures up to around 25 celsius, so feeling quite warm again, but cooler further north. but as we head into part two of the weekend, it does look like it'll be cloudy with some further spots of rain and feeling cooler for all.

live from london, this is bbc news. prime minister rishi sunak and sir keir starmer clash in the final election debate before next thursday's general election. bolivian police have arrested the leader of an attempted coup, hours after the presidential palace in the capital la paz was stormed by soldiers. the kenyan president william ruto has scrapped a finance bill that had provoked huge protests where at least 23 people were killed across the country. and the stage is set — presidentjoe biden and ex—president donald trump will go head—to—head in their first debate before

the 2024 election. hello, i'm sally bundock. good to have you with us. the two men in the race to become britian�*s next prime minister have faced off in a spiky television debate organised by the bbc — their last direct encounter before the general election next week. the conservative prime minister rishi sunak and his labour party opponent sir keir starmerfaced questions from an audience in nottingham. the issues of trust, taxes and youth unemployment dominated the debate. the labour party currently enjoys a big lead in opinion surveys over the conservatives, who have been in power for 1h years. here's our political correspondent hannah miller.