criminal aim at his opponent's criminal conviction and attempts to overturn the 2020 election. let's recap on what we have been watching tonight. i am joined by our senior north america correspondent gary o'donoghue. we talked about how high the stakes were and what a moment this would be in the campaign. it moment this would be in the campaign-— moment this would be in the camaiun. ~' ., campaign. it kind of delivered! it did, i'm _ campaign. it kind of delivered! it did, i'm not _ campaign. it kind of delivered! it did, i'm not sure _ campaign. it kind of delivered! it did, i'm not sure this - campaign. it kind of delivered! it did, i'm not sure this will. it did, i'm not sure this will have changed much for the committed, but they are not really talking to the committed, but the small number of undecided voters in key swing states, six or seven who will decide the november election. what we saw were fairly well worn attacks and well worn insults. i think what well worn insults. i think what we learned tonight, we already knew they don't like one another, but there wasn't very much about the future. this was an analysis, a dissection of the past, the pass presidency, ofjoe biden up till now and donald trump's first term in office. i'm not sure the public

will have learned much about what these men plan to do in the future. what these men plan to do in the future-— what these men plan to do in the future. ~ ., the future. when we look at the performance — the future. when we look at the performance of _ the future. when we look at the performance of each _ the future. when we look at the performance of each candidate, | performance of each candidate, joe biden first. we heard from our panellist stephanie murphy about how disappointed to put it mildly democrats work with what they saw. he it mildly democrats work with what they saw.— it mildly democrats work with what they saw. he was obviously battlin: what they saw. he was obviously battling some — what they saw. he was obviously battling some sort _ what they saw. he was obviously battling some sort of— what they saw. he was obviously battling some sort of cold, - what they saw. he was obviously battling some sort of cold, we i battling some sort of cold, we understand. he sounded pretty hoarse. and there was that really big moment for the democrats where he lost his train of thought and was trying to talk about the national debt and trailed off. when he came back, he didn't make much sense, to be honest. that is something donald trump try to capitalise on and didn't really go for it in a way you might have expected donald trump to do in the past. there were moments, flashes the democrats will have taken some comfort from. stand out lines like, you have the morals of an alley cat, which is something that will be repeated and transmitted on social media. but not really a consummate

performance. and he did sound his age and he did sound a bit unsure and it was at times quite difficult to understand what he was saying. if quite difficult to understand what he was saying.- what he was saying. if joe biden was _ what he was saying. if joe biden was invoking - what he was saying. if joe biden was invoking alley i what he was saying. if joe - biden was invoking alley cats, donald trump said america was like living in a nap —— living ina rats like living in a nap —— living in a rats nest. what did you think of his performance? we didn't hear— think of his performance? - didn't hear anything new and he reined himself in in a way that his supporters and backers and his supporters and backers and his team would have wanted. he didn't startairing his team would have wanted. he didn't start airing a lot of grievances. there was a bit of the russia hoax and being persecuted, but not as much as you might have got. and we had this most bizarre moment at the end when they were talking about their ages and they were asked about the respective ages, joe biden 81 and donald trump 78 and they ended up in an argument about golf handicaps. you think is this a presidential debate or two old guysin presidential debate or two old guys in a pub arguing about

golf? guys in a pub arguing about aolf? ~ ., guys in a pub arguing about aolf? ., ~ ., , ., ~ golf? who knows, indeed! thank ou for golf? who knows, indeed! thank you forioining — golf? who knows, indeed! thank you forjoining us _ golf? who knows, indeed! thank you forjoining us with _ golf? who knows, indeed! thank you forjoining us with your - you forjoining us with your thoughts on what we have been watching and this cnn presidential debate. we can go back to our panel, former members of congress stephanie murphy and ronald davis, republican from illinois. we have talked about the performance and character and style of the candidates. let's look at the substance, there was quite a serious back and forth about the handling of the economy. forth about the handling of the econom . , ., , economy. yes, there was. i thinkfor— economy. yes, there was. i think for the _ economy. yes, there was. i think for the american - economy. yes, there was. i i think for the american people, two thirds were unhappy with these options going into this debate. the debate affirmed why they were unhappy with the options. they were two more senior americans. and when they went into that debate about golf, that is a sport that is not your average american's sport. you have to have some

amount of resources to be able to play golf. so on display were two people who were disconnected from the american public, both from an age perspective, but also from a style of life perspective. and right now, most of the american public is struggling with the cost of goods. that's why they were looking for more information about the economy. about the future. who is going to make their lives better? who is going to make the cost of groceries lower so that when they work a full—time job, they can actually make ends meet for theirfamily? on both counts, both candidates failed to meet the moment.— both candidates failed to meet the moment. what did you think about that _ the moment. what did you think about that exchange, _ the moment. what did you think about that exchange, rodney? l the moment. what did you think about that exchange, rodney? i | about that exchange, rodney? i thought it was typical donald trump — thought it was typical donald trump and joe biden arguing over— trump and joe biden arguing over things that were more personal— over things that were more personal than really relative to the — personal than really relative to the american economy. i found — to the american economy. i

found it _ to the american economy. i found it interesting throughout this entire debate, a lot of discussion post debate or during _ discussion post debate or during the debate, unsocial media, _ during the debate, unsocial media, that president trump was not honest— media, that president trump was not honest in his answers. at some — not honest in his answers. at some point, you have to recognise thatjoe biden recognise that joe biden confused recognise thatjoe biden confused some of the answers so you cannot — confused some of the answers so you cannot figure out what the truth _ you cannot figure out what the truth is — you cannot figure out what the truth is. secondly, he outright lied truth is. secondly, he outright tied and — truth is. secondly, he outright lied and said he was endorsed tty lied and said he was endorsed by the — lied and said he was endorsed by the border patrol unit, who immediately fact—checked that and said — immediately fact—checked that and said he was never and will never— and said he was never and will never be — and said he was never and will never be endorsed by them. when it comes _ never be endorsed by them. when it comes to— never be endorsed by them. when it comes to the economy and it is what — it comes to the economy and it is what most american people care _ is what most american people care about the most, he said he inherited — care about the most, he said he inherited high inflation, but almost _ inherited high inflation, but almost after that, there was no inflation — almost after that, there was no inflation when he got there because there were nojobs. you cannot— because there were nojobs. you cannot have it both ways, the american _ cannot have it both ways, the american people don't believe the biden administration are taking — the biden administration are taking the administration —— the economy seriously and that he is _

the economy seriously and that he is doing anything about the border— he is doing anything about the border rafah and that after tonight, he is going to be a winner— tonight, he is going to be a winner in— tonight, he is going to be a winner in november. —— the border— winner in november. —— the border search. and when they were — border search. and when they were discussing financial matters and health care and medicare, we can listen to that clip medicare, we can listen to that did where _ medicare, we can listen to that clip where one of those stumbles we were discussing arose — stumbles we were discussing arose. . . , arose. child care, elderly care, making _ arose. child care, elderly care, making sure - arose. child care, elderly care, making sure we - arose. child care, elderly - care, making sure we strengthen our health— care, making sure we strengthen our health care _ care, making sure we strengthen our health care system, - care, making sure we strengthen our health care system, making. our health care system, making sure _ our health care system, making sure we — our health care system, making sure we are _ our health care system, making sure we are able _ our health care system, making sure we are able to— our health care system, making sure we are able to make - our health care system, making sure we are able to make everyj sure we are able to make every solitary — sure we are able to make every solitary person _ sure we are able to make every solitary person eligible - sure we are able to make every solitary person eligible for- solitary person eligible for what — solitary person eligible for what i _ solitary person eligible for what i have _ solitary person eligible for what i have been- solitary person eligible for what i have been able - solitary person eligible for what i have been able to i solitary person eligible for. what i have been able to do with— what i have been able to do with the _ what i have been able to do with the covid, _ what i have been able to do with the covid, excuse - what i have been able to do with the covid, excuse me, | what i have been able to do i with the covid, excuse me, we are dealing _ with the covid, excuse me, we are dealing with _ with the covid, excuse me, we are dealing with everything - with the covid, excuse me, we are dealing with everything we| are dealing with everything we have _ are dealing with everything we have to — are dealing with everything we have to dom _ are dealing with everything we have to do... look, _ are dealing with everything we have to do... look, if- are dealing with everything we have to do... look, if we - have to do... look, if we finally— have to do... look, if we finally beat _ have to do... look, if we finally beat medicare. i have to do... look, if we finally beat medicare. that cli - finally beat medicare. that cli is finally beat medicare. that clip is from _ finally beat medicare. that clip is from the _ finally beat medicare. that clip is from the cnn - clip is from the cnn presidential debate we have been watching all night. stephanie, where there moments you took from the debate that

president biden sparked inspiration in new or did a good job? inspiration in new or did a goodjob? i inspiration in new or did a good job?— inspiration in new or did a aood “ob? ~' ., ., ., good “ob? i think he did a good “ob good job? i think he did a good job talking _ good job? i think he did a good job talking about _ good job? i think he did a good job talking about women's - job talking about women's health and that is an important piece and single voter issues, there are a lot of single voter issues on that. i think he did a greatjob pressing the case that he would be somebody who would defend the excess of women rodney, on the issue of reproductive rights, there was an interesting answer from donald trump when he was asked about that and said it should be left to people to decide and he was running for election, but his view was there should be exceptions in which abortion would be permissible. i5 be exceptions in which abortion would be permissible. is it be exceptions in which abortion would be permissible.— would be permissible. is it a chance would be permissible. is it a change to — would be permissible. is it a change to the _ would be permissible. is it a change to the core - would be permissible. is it a i change to the core republican view on abortion? ida. change to the core republican view on abortion?— view on abortion? no, not at all. i view on abortion? no, not at all- i always _ view on abortion? no, not at all. i always ran _ view on abortion? no, not at

all. i always ran with, - view on abortion? no, not at all. i always ran with, i - view on abortion? no, not at all. i always ran with, i am i view on abortion? no, not at all. i always ran with, i am a | all. i always ran with, i am a pro-life _ all. i always ran with, i am a pro—life member of congress. biden— pro—life member of congress. biden is— pro—life member of congress. biden is somebody who ran with the exceptions for rape and incest — the exceptions for rape and incest and the life of the mother _ incest and the life of the mother. that is not an uncommon republican— mother. that is not an uncommon republican position. so what president trump laid out was the republican position of most members of the us house of representatives that i served in. president trump did not do us wrong — in. president trump did not do us wrong in _ in. president trump did not do us wrong in responding to the abortion— us wrong in responding to the abortion issue. as he probably could — abortion issue. as he probably could have. and frankly, joe biden— could have. and frankly, joe biden of— could have. and frankly, joe biden of that was probably the best part of the debate performance that he had. but other— performance that he had. but other than that, ijust don't see — other than that, ijust don't see where democrats say that joe biden did well tonight. look, _ joe biden did well tonight. look, i_ joe biden did well tonight. look, i like itjoe biden personally. i think he is a good _ personally. i think he is a good person and a good man. —— i good person and a good man. —— iiike _ good person and a good man. —— i like joe — good person and a good man. —— i like joe biden. good person and a good man. —— i likejoe biden. i heard his life ilikejoe biden. i heard his life story— i likejoe biden. i heard his life story while eating a salad

and it— life story while eating a salad and it was an entertaining opportunity i will never forget _ opportunity i will never forget. but he is not the same person— forget. but he is not the same person i— forget. but he is not the same person i saw an air force to that— person i saw an air force to that day— person i saw an air force to that day in— person i saw an air force to that day in washington, dc and the american people saw that tonight— the american people saw that tonight as well. —— i saw on air— tonight as well. —— i saw on air force _ tonight as well. —— i saw on air force two. tonight as well. -- i saw on air force two.— tonight as well. -- i saw on air force two. we will be back to ou air force two. we will be back to you both — air force two. we will be back to you both in _ air force two. we will be back to you both in a _ air force two. we will be back to you both in a minute. - air force two. we will be back to you both in a minute. but l to you both in a minute. but the two candidates were asked about their stance on the war in ukraine and let's listen to what they said.— in ukraine and let's listen to what they said. zelensky comes to this country _ what they said. zelensky comes to this country walks _ what they said. zelensky comes to this country walks away - what they said. zelensky comes to this country walks away with | to this country walks away with $60 billion, _ to this country walks away with $60 billion, he— to this country walks away with $60 billion, he is— to this country walks away with $60 billion, he is the - to this country walks away with $60 billion, he is the greatestl $60 billion, he is the greatest salesman — $60 billion, he is the greatest salesman ever. _ $60 billion, he is the greatest salesman ever. i— $60 billion, he is the greatest salesman ever. i am - $60 billion, he is the greatest salesman ever. i am not - salesman ever. i am not knocking _ salesman ever. i am not knocking him _ salesman ever. i am not knocking him or- salesman ever. i am not. knocking him or anything. salesman ever. i am not i knocking him oranything. i salesman ever. i am not - knocking him or anything. i am only— knocking him or anything. i am only saying _ knocking him or anything. i am only saying the _ knocking him or anything. i am only saying the money - knocking him or anything. i am only saying the money that - knocking him or anything. i am only saying the money that we| only saying the money that we are spending— only saying the money that we are spending on— only saying the money that we are spending on this _ only saying the money that we are spending on this war- only saying the money that we are spending on this war and l only saying the money that we i are spending on this war and we shouidn't— are spending on this war and we shouldn't be _ are spending on this war and we shouldn't be spending, - are spending on this war and we shouldn't be spending, it - shouldn't be spending, it should _ shouldn't be spending, it should never— shouldn't be spending, it should never have - shouldn't be spending, it - should never have happened. i will have — should never have happened. i will have that _ should never have happened. i will have that war— should never have happened. i will have that war settled - will have that war settled between _ will have that war settled between putin _ will have that war settled between putin and - will have that war settled i between putin and zelensky will have that war settled - between putin and zelensky as president—elect— between putin and zelensky as president—elect before - between putin and zelensky as president—elect before i- between putin and zelensky as president—elect before i take l president—elect before i take office — president—elect before i take office on— president—elect before i take office onjanuary_ president—elect before i take office on january the - president—elect before i take office on january the 20th, . president—elect before i take office onjanuary the 20th, ii office onjanuary the 20th, i will have _ office onjanuary the 20th, i will have that _ office onjanuary the 20th, i will have that war— office onjanuary the 20th, i will have that war settled. l office onjanuary the 20th, i. will have that war settled. the fact is putin _ will have that war settled. the fact is putin is _ will have that war settled. the fact is putin is a _ will have that war settled. the fact is putin is a war— fact is putin is a war criminal, he has killed thousands and thousands of people _ thousands and thousands of people and he has made one

thing — people and he has made one thing clear. he wants to re—establish part of the soviet empire. — re—establish part of the soviet empire, notjust a piece, he wants— empire, notjust a piece, he wants all— empire, notjust a piece, he wants all of ukraine, that is what — wants all of ukraine, that is what he _ wants all of ukraine, that is what he wants. do you think he will stop— what he wants. do you think he will stop there if he takes ukraine? what you think happens to poland — ukraine? what you think happens to poland or belarus or those nato — to poland or belarus or those nato countries?— to poland or belarus or those nato countries? joining me now is anrela nato countries? joining me now is angela stent _ nato countries? joining me now is angela stent who _ nato countries? joining me now is angela stent who is _ nato countries? joining me now is angela stent who is a - nato countries? joining me now is angela stent who is a former| is angela stent who is a former national intelligence officer for russia and eurasia. thank you forjoining us on bbc news. there was a lot of back and forward about ukraine, putin, russia, zelensky, was it what you would have expected? yes, it was, donald _ you would have expected? yes, it was, donald trump _ you would have expected? yes it was, donald trump repeated what he has said for some time, that he will end the war if he is elected president before he is elected president before he is inaugurated. of course, he has not told anyone how he will do it. the other thing he said repeatedly tonight which he said before is putin would never have invaded ukraine if

trump had been president and the only reason why putin invaded ukraine was because of what happened in afghanistan. and president biden also repeated of course what he and the biden administration have said, that they are not going to end the war now and if putin wins this war, he will take over all of ukraine and then he will maybe attack poland and other nato countries. and that they support ukraine. so i don't think we heard anything new from either of them. and they restated their positions. and on the other hand, trump also said that putin respected him and putin doesn't respect biden. what trump said about zelensky, he said he was a great salesman and started to say he didn't mean it in a bad way. but of course, we do know he threatened zelensky when he was president because he wanted zelensky to give the trump

administration, quote unquote, dirt and president biden's son, hunter. did dirt and president biden's son, hunter. , , ., ~' hunter. did you think when donald trump _ hunter. did you think when donald trump was - hunter. did you think when | donald trump was speaking hunter. did you think when - donald trump was speaking about how much funding the us has committed to ukraine that he seemed to land that is a criticism ofjoe biden? seemed to land that is a criticism of joe biden? criticism ofjoe biden? 0h, he certainly did. _ criticism ofjoe biden? 0h, he certainly did. and _ criticism ofjoe biden? 0h, he certainly did. and republican | certainly did. and republican members of congress are saying that we have spent all this money. trump erroneously said the europeans were not doing enough to support ukraine. europeans are doing much more than they did in the beginning and in some categories, they are doing more than the united states to support ukraine. and states to support ukraine. and for people _ states to support ukraine. and for people in — states to support ukraine. and for people in europe who would be watching this for perhaps president zelensky or president putin, what would they have made of what they heard on the debate stage? i made of what they heard on the debate stage?— debate stage? i don't think they would _ debate stage? i don't think they would have _ debate stage? i don't think they would have been - debate stage? i don't think - they would have been surprised because former president trump's positions have been stated many times. and president biden's

administration of course has worked hard to put together a transatlantic coalition, trans—pacific transatlantic coalition, tra ns—pacific as transatlantic coalition, trans—pacific as well to tra ns—pacific as well to support trans—pacific as well to support ukraine. and does not want russia to win this war. because it will threaten a wider war in europe. so i don't think we did hear anything new tonight from either of the candidates in november. and candidates in november. and when president _ candidates in november. and when president trump was saying president putin respected him, would you have expected joe biden tojump in would you have expected joe biden to jump in with a push back against that is the president of america? i mean, he miaht president of america? i mean, he might have. _ president of america? i mean, he might have. but— president of america? i mean, he might have. but for- president of america? i mean, i he might have. but for whatever reason, he really didn't want to go there. what we know now is that putin and the kremlin would prefer trump to win the election not because they necessarily think that american policy towards russia would be that different, but because they favour chaos in the united states. the more chaos, the betterfor states. the more chaos, the better for them. states. the more chaos, the betterfor them. and we states. the more chaos, the better for them. and we do

states. the more chaos, the betterfor them. and we do know because putin, russians have hinted at that.— because putin, russians have hinted at that. thanks so much forjoining _ hinted at that. thanks so much forjoining us— hinted at that. thanks so much forjoining us on _ hinted at that. thanks so much forjoining us on bbc— hinted at that. thanks so much forjoining us on bbc news - hinted at that. thanks so much | forjoining us on bbc news with your thoughts as always, lovely to speak to you again. the first question of the cnn presidential debate was about what the pollsters say is the top issue of the election, the economy and particularly the cost of living. donald trump and joe biden presented starkly different visions of the state of the us economy at the start of the us economy at the start of the us economy at the start of the biden administration. brute of the biden administration. we are the greatest economy in the history— are the greatest economy in the history of— are the greatest economy in the history of our— are the greatest economy in the history of our country. - are the greatest economy in the history of our country. we - are the greatest economy in the history of our country. we havel history of our country. we have never _ history of our country. we have never done _ history of our country. we have never done so _ history of our country. we have never done so well. _ history of our country. we have never done so well. everybodyl never done so well. everybody was amazed _ never done so well. everybody was amazed by— never done so well. everybody was amazed by it. _ never done so well. everybody was amazed by it. other- was amazed by it. other countries _ was amazed by it. other countries were - was amazed by it. other countries were copying i was amazed by it. other- countries were copying others. we got — countries were copying others. we got hit _ countries were copying others. we got hit with _ countries were copying others. we got hit with covid - countries were copying others. we got hit with covid and - countries were copying others. | we got hit with covid and when we did, — we got hit with covid and when we did, we _ we got hit with covid and when we did, we spent— we got hit with covid and when we did, we spent the _ we got hit with covid and when we did, we spent the money. we did, we spent the money necessary— we did, we spent the money necessary so _ we did, we spent the money necessary so we _ we did, we spent the money necessary so we wouldn't i we did, we spent the money. necessary so we wouldn't end we did, we spent the money- necessary so we wouldn't end up in a great — necessary so we wouldn't end up in a great depression _ necessary so we wouldn't end up in a great depression the - necessary so we wouldn't end up in a great depression the likes . in a great depression the likes of which — in a great depression the likes of which we _ in a great depression the likes of which we had _ in a great depression the likes of which we had in _ in a great depression the likes of which we had in 1929. - in a great depression the likes of which we had in 1929. the l of which we had in 1929. the createst of which we had in 1929. the greatest economy _ of which we had in 1929. the greatest economy in - of which we had in 1929. tjjtiz greatest economy in the of which we had in 1929.- greatest economy in the world, he is _ greatest economy in the world, he is the — greatest economy in the world, he is the only one who thinks that — he is the only one who thinks that~ i— he is the only one who thinks that. i don't know anyone else that. idon't know anyone else who— that. i don't know anyone else who thinks it is the greatest

economy— who thinks it is the greatest economy in the world. the fact of the — economy in the world. the fact of the matter is we pride ourselves —— we found ourselves in a situation where he rewarded the wealthy. his economy- _ rewarded the wealthy. his economy. for— rewarded the wealthy. h 3 economy. for more on the state of the us economy... for more on the state of the us economy, let's bring in former chief economist of the us department of labor, and member of council of economic advisors under obama betsey stevenson, and former acting chairman of the council of economic advisors under trump tomas philipson. was donald trump correct in terms of what he said about the state of the economy he left to joe biden? state of the economy he left to joe biden?— joe biden? sorry, me first? yes. i joe biden? sorry, me first? yes- ldont— joe biden? sorry, me first? yes. i don't think _ joe biden? sorry, me first? yes. i don't think that - joe biden? sorry, me first? yes. i don't think that he i joe biden? sorry, me first? i yes. i don't think that he was correct. if anything, yes. i don't think that he was correct. ifanything, i yes. i don't think that he was correct. if anything, i have seen the economy post—pandemic

in the united states has been the envy of the world. but let's be fair and honest which i think has been very hard to get straight information from republicans about the state of the economy. the economy was very strong between 2015 and 2019. that means that strength started with obama. it did continue with trump and created in 2020 due to the pandemic. does trump want to say, look, could anybody have handled the pandemic better? he could make that argument, but he has to acknowledge it was a mess in 2020. biden has done better than anybody expected in getting us where we are today and that's why the country is literally the envy of the rest of the world. but how do you keep employment so high while bringing inflation down? others have not achieved that miracle. what do you think? i have not achieved that miracle. what do you think?— what do you think? i think that is a pretty _ what do you think? i think that is a pretty big _ is a pretty big mischaracterisation. the

american people are right when they say— american people are right when they say that overwhelmingly, trump — they say that overwhelmingly, trump handled the economy better— trump handled the economy better than biden. you listen to the — better than biden. you listen to the people and you see their pocketbook dwindling in terms of real — pocketbook dwindling in terms of real income under biden. so biden— of real income under biden. so biden wants to claim he generated all these jobs when the democrats wanted to lock down — the democrats wanted to lock down the economy further, but then— down the economy further, but then we — down the economy further, but then we opened it up and he takes — then we opened it up and he takes credit for basically factories turning on the lights when — factories turning on the lights when they come back, essentially. it has been a disastrous economy. we had a 6% annual— disastrous economy. we had a 6% annual growth last quarter of 2020 — annual growth last quarter of 2020 coming out of covid and we had no _ 2020 coming out of covid and we had no inflation. under biden we had — had no inflation. under biden we had real incomes that have not even — we had real incomes that have not even caught up to 2019. even _ not even caught up to 2019. even if— not even caught up to 2019. even if they were, it is a disaster— even if they were, it is a disaster because we had five years— disaster because we had five years of— disaster because we had five years of growth of real incomes which _ years of growth of real incomes which is — years of growth of real incomes which is what people are hurting _ which is what people are hurting for. listen to the people _ hurting for. listen to the people when they say this, they are not— people when they say this, they are not stupid. and it is only

the — are not stupid. and it is only the pundits that will claim we have — the pundits that will claim we have a — the pundits that will claim we have a great economy. tomas committed — have a great economy. tomas committed the _ have a great economy. tomas committed the former- have a great economy. tomas i committed the former president donald trump lay out the things he would do to make a difference to that? —— tomas, did the former president. he already showed what he would do prior to _ already showed what he would do prior to covid. after covid, things— prior to covid. after covid, things change dramatically across— things change dramatically across the world. pre—covid, we had an— across the world. pre—covid, we had an enormous success story and everybody agrees and people are saying it. it is not some allusion— are saying it. it is not some allusion they are talking about _ allusion they are talking about. and basically, we had the most _ about. and basically, we had the most deregulation under any president, even more than reagan _ president, even more than reagan. we have large tax cuts which _ reagan. we have large tax cuts which people... to try to shrink— which people... to try to shrink the government. biden increase — shrink the government. biden increase the government by 4% of gdp, — increase the government by 4% of gdp, spending going up by 4%~ _ of gdp, spending going up by 4%~ the_ of gdp, spending going up by 4%. the only way you can do that— 4%. the only way you can do that is— 4%. the only way you can do that is to _ 4%. the only way you can do that is to tax them. if you tax them — that is to tax them. if you tax them now. _ that is to tax them. if you tax them now, you tax them in the future — them now, you tax them in the future by— them now, you tax them in the future by borrowing or with

inflation _ future by borrowing or with inflation which is what biden has done. he says he doesn't want — has done. he says he doesn't want to— has done. he says he doesn't want to tax people below 400,000, he has dramatically taxed — 400,000, he has dramatically taxed the lower and middle income _ taxed the lower and middle income classes in this country by his— income classes in this country by his inflation tax that has funded _ by his inflation tax that has funded his government growth from _ funded his government growth from 20% to 24% of gdp. did we hear enough _ from 20% to 24% of gdp. did we hear enough from _ from 20% to 24% of gdp. did we hear enough from president - hear enough from president biden about what he would do in the next term should he be re—elected? i the next term should he be re-elected?_ the next term should he be re-elected? ~ , ., , re-elected? i think the problem for american — re-elected? i think the problem for american voters _ re-elected? i think the problem for american voters is _ re-elected? i think the problem for american voters is they - for american voters is they really do want real information and all they hear from president and all they hearfrom president trump and president trump's former administration is false odds. if you can say anything and it doesn't have to be true, you can trump up all kinds of crazy stories to say this is how we will improve the economy. you need to be grounded in the facts. the facts are that we had a really, really bad economy because of the pandemic. we have also had a lot of people died due to the

pandemic. we had to get through that. we have gotten through it and real incomes are now higher. we have also seen inequality narrow for the first time in many decades. we have an economy becoming stronger not by giving tax cuts to corporations which president trump made clear he plans to do more of, but by building the working—class, the middle class back up by investing in rural communities, investing in manufacturing jobs, investing in a future in which all americans have a part in the economy. americans have a part in the economy-— americans have a part in the economy. and i know you are speaking _ economy. and i know you are speaking to — economy. and i know you are speaking to us _ economy. and i know you are speaking to us from - economy. and i know you are speaking to us from australia j speaking to us from australia tonight or tomorrow morning as it is for you. how do you think the debate will have been viewed in australia? filth. the debate will have been viewed in australia? oh, how will it have _ viewed in australia? oh, how will it have been _ viewed in australia? oh, how will it have been viewed - viewed in australia? oh, how will it have been viewed in i will it have been viewed in australia? i think everybody around the world is viewing

this the same way, i don't think president biden delivered a great debate in the sense he is not a great debater. i think we have to focus on the policies and the reality and cut through just an inordinate number of lies that came out of president trump during the debate in order to be able to see the truth. around the globe, what i hear is concern about an unstable united states and a united states in which we can no longer count on it being really a safe haven for investors.— really a safe haven for investors. ~ ., , , ., investors. we have plenty more to talk about _ investors. we have plenty more to talk about as _ investors. we have plenty more to talk about as the _ investors. we have plenty more to talk about as the night - investors. we have plenty more to talk about as the night goesl to talk about as the night goes on and we will speak again about the economy, i'm sure. for now, thank you both for joining us on bbc news. we have been speaking a lot about the performance of presidentjoe biden. i am joined performance of presidentjoe biden. iamjoined by performance of presidentjoe biden. i am joined by the principal deputy manager for the biden and harris campaign.

the talking point wasjoe biden's performers, losing his train of thought, donald trump accusing him of not being able to understand what he said, what is your view? the president _ what is your view? the president laid - what is your view? the president laid out - what is your view? the president laid out his i what is your view? iie: president laid out his vision for america, this was substance over style and anybody at home seeing that so every time there was talk of substance, donald trump shied away from it and offered no substance on the issues, he refused to answer if he would support a national balsam and, if he supports insurrectionist used on the capitol, he refused to answer several times. capitol, he refused to answer severaltimes. if capitol, he refused to answer several times. if he would support the results of the election, that is who trump is and we saw that several times. his voice was raspy, any reason for that? . , his voice was raspy, any reason for that? ., , ., ., for that? he was fighting for a cold -- through _ for that? he was fighting for a cold -- through a _ for that? he was fighting for a cold -- through a cold. - for that? he was fighting for a cold -- through a cold. it - for that? he was fighting for a j cold -- through a cold. it took cold —— through a cold. it took time fay�*s voice to warm up, but he fought through the cold to deliver of —— the substance of the issues to the american people. of the issues to the american eo - le. ~ , of the issues to the american --eole.~ , .,, of the issues to the american healer , .,, ., of the issues to the american --eole.~ , ., , of the issues to the american healer , ., , ., people. why was that news not revealed before _ people. why was that news not revealed before the _ people. why was that news not

revealed before the debate? i revealed before the debate? president, there is no excuses here. the president wanted to come on stage and debate donald trump and there will be a second debate where they face. there is no reason to acknowledge that up front. the president went on stage and did what he needed to do. this was substance and we see donald trump has no substance for the american people. we trump has no substance for the american people.— trump has no substance for the american people. we are hearing there is some _ american people. we are hearing there is some conversation - american people. we are hearing there is some conversation in - there is some conversation in there is some conversation in the democratic party about an open convention of the need to replace joe open convention of the need to replacejoe biden at the top of the ticket? brute replace joe biden at the top of the ticket?— replace joe biden at the top of the ticket? we are not going to dirni the ticket? we are not going to dignify that _ the ticket? we are not going to dignify that with _ the ticket? we are not going to dignify that with a _ the ticket? we are not going to dignify that with a response, i dignify that with a response, president biden will be the nominee towards november and president biden will win this election. our campaign will continue to draw the vision you saw biden present to the american people tonight and as people tune into this election and debate, they will see the difference between president biden's division and donald trump. he is obsessed with himself and he cannot help but talk about himself and what he wants out of this election and it is all for him and not the american people which is now ——

which is why he has no substance to offer. to joe biden do _ substance to offer. to joe biden do enough - substance to offer. to joe biden do enough to - substance to offer. to joe biden do enough to help. substance to offer. to joe i biden do enough to help his campaign? and so much as we can trust the polls, he's not doing so well. . , ., so well. absolutely, he laid out his vision _ so well. absolutely, he laid out his vision again. - so well. absolutely, he laid out his vision again. the i out his vision again. the president talked to the american people showing he understands people are still struggling and we have more work to continue to do to drive down costs and create more jobs. pointing out donald trump has no idea what he is talking about on a number of issues foreign and domestic and i think the president made that case eloquently. mas think the president made that case eloquently.— case eloquently. was the president _ case eloquently. was the president happy - case eloquently. was the president happy with - case eloquently. was the president happy with his | case eloquently. was the - president happy with his own performance? i president happy with his own performance?— performance? i was not -- i have not — performance? i was not -- i have not spoken _ performance? i was not -- i have not spoken to - performance? i was not -- i have not spoken to the - performance? i was not -- i - have not spoken to the present, but i assume he was happy. he knew he had to come out and lay a vision and draw a contrast with trump and that is what we saw tonight. with trump and that is what we saw tonight-— saw tonight. thank you for speaking _ saw tonight. thank you for speaking to _ saw tonight. thank you for speaking to us, _ saw tonight. thank you for speaking to us, quentin i saw tonight. thank you for i speaking to us, quentin fulks and joining us on bbc news. you're watching bbc news and we have been broadcasting the cnn presidential debate. stay with us for more coverage of that

debate around the world and across the uk, this is bbc news. we will have plenty more analysis, discussion and insight and clips and a recap of what we have been discussing the cnn presidential debate. so do stay with us here on bbc news. you're watching bbc news. we can go back to our panel of rodney davis, former republican congressman from illinois, and stephanie murphy, former democratic congresswoman from florida. stephanie first. you just heard from inside the campaign that they will not dignify it with a response my question about an open convention. what do you think about that?— about that? well, he was excellent _ about that? well, he was excellent as _ about that? well, he was excellent as a _ about that? well, he was - excellent as a communications person. he was on message and he said what he needed to say from the campaign perspective. as i mentioned previously, one of the big challenges for the biden campaign it will be over the next few days to put down

and to quell the concerns democrats have. as you know in the past when democrats or others have had concern about biden and, they send out surrogates and i believe they have mocked some of the democrats and said they are a bunch of bed—wetters. but if democrats are bed—wetters over the concerns of biden's performers, i think a lot of people are bedwetting tonight! —— biden's performance. but the process of an open convention or replacing a nominee at this point are incredibly difficult. so there are a lot of challenges tonight. i think you will hear a lot of concerns, but i'm not sure there is a tonne that can be done with it given the way the process set up. without getting too far on this, what would be involved

with an open convention? find this, what would be involved with an open convention? and we know from _ with an open convention? and we know from the _ with an open convention? and we know from the biden _ with an open convention? and we know from the biden campaign i know from the biden campaign that they are not entertaining that they are not entertaining that at this point. it that they are not entertaining that at this point.— that at this point. it would have to happen _ that at this point. it would have to happen at - that at this point. it would have to happen at the - have to happen at the convention in august and somebody would have to be willing to be put up and nominated and put on a campaign within the party to achieve that. and i think the same reasons that that is unlikely to happen are the reasons why there were not alternatives in our primary. many of the democratic party and we have a deep and very talented young bench, but many of those folks deferred to president biden as opposed to trying to risk their career by challenging him. the power of incumbency is incredibly strong. so many of the potential candidates that we could have put up instead just decided to wait their turn. and i think for the same

reason, an open convention is something of west wing hollywood tv show dreams. rodney, as we just heard from our two economy guests a moment ago, a lot of contention about what each of the candidates were claiming as victories. what did you think of that exchange?— what did you think of that exchanae? ~ ~ exchange? well, i think when ou look exchange? well, i think when you look at— exchange? well, i think when you look at what _ exchange? well, i think when you look at what president. you look at what president trump _ you look at what president trump accomplished economically before _ trump accomplished economically before covid, it was historic. and — before covid, it was historic. and i— before covid, it was historic. and i think he reminded the american people of that. but i think— american people of that. but i think president biden and the biden— think president biden and the biden administration as we have discussed — biden administration as we have discussed does not recognise the fact— discussed does not recognise the fact that most americans still don't believe that they are spending less and inflation is going — are spending less and inflation is going down because they don't — is going down because they don't see it at the grocery store. _ don't see it at the grocery store, they don't see it when they— store, they don't see it when they pay— store, they don't see it when they pay utility bills and they 'ust

they pay utility bills and they just don't see their paycheque going — just don't see their paycheque going as — just don't see their paycheque going as far as it did. but in the— going as far as it did. but in the end— going as far as it did. but in the end when you look at the final— the end when you look at the final impression of this debate tonight, — final impression of this debate tonight, it is all about what stephanie and i were talking about — stephanie and i were talking about. democrats will come to that in just a moment. sorry, we will come to that injust a moment. sorry, we will come to that in just a moment. moment. sorry, we will come to that injust a moment. liza fromer later, this is bbc news. i'm caitriona perry. those for joining us here. this is cnn's presidential debate here in atlanta, georgia. the two rivals came face—to—face for the first time in nearly four years in an historic high—stakes debate that hit on a wide range of topics. donald trump repeatedly attached to joe biden on the issue of the economy and foreign policy, as we have been discussing. joe biden zagame at donald trump's recent criminal conviction and a 6january recent criminal conviction and a 6 january attacks. recent criminal conviction and a 6january attacks. both camps are claiming victory after the

performances tonight. but us voters will make the final goal this november. the pair also clashed on the issue of aggression. let's listen to a bit of that exchange. the [art est bit of that exchange. the largest number - bit of that exchange. the largest number of - bit of that exchange. iie: largest number of terrorist coming into our country right now, all tariffs, all over the world, notjust in south america, all over the world, they come from everywhere, they are pouring in —— terrace. brute are pouring in -- terrace. we make sure — are pouring in -- terrace. we make sure we _ are pouring in —— terrace. we make sure we have a situation where — make sure we have a situation where there are no circumstances where they could come _ circumstances where they could come across the border with the number— come across the border with the number reported right now. we significantly increase the number of asylum.- significantly increase the number of asylum. ok, i'm 'oined number of asylum. ok, i'm joined now— number of asylum. ok, i'm joined now by _ number of asylum. ok, i'm joined now by michael- number of asylum. 0k, i'm| joined now by michael gold, number of asylum. ok, i'm - joined now by michael gold, new york times political correspondent who has been covering the trump campaign. but tonight it has been. fin but tonight it has been. on both sides, _ but tonight it has been. (in both sides, yes. but tonight it has been. on both sides, yes. what - but tonight it has been. on both sides, yes. what is i but tonight it has been. on l both sides, yes. what is your toline both sides, yes. what is your topline view— both sides, yes. what is your topline view of _ both sides, yes. what is your topline view of what - both sides, yes. what is your topline view of what has - topline view of what has happened tonight? i think president _ happened tonight? i think president trump - happened tonight? i think president trump came i happened tonight? i think| president trump came out swinging. he was on a fence for most of the night. i think you sees really early on present bone's stumbles, the trump

campaign told me this was a debate we wanted, this is what they hoped for. they sent a long time they hoped for. they sent a longtime setting the expectation abide macome out not look particularly strong. they tried reversing the few days suggesting he would be really strong debater, and that may not be necessary given what we just watched. it is may not be necessary given what we just watched.— we just watched. it is the new rules, we just watched. it is the new rules. the _ we just watched. it is the new rules, the impacting -- - rules, the impacting —— impacting, the meeting of the microphones, etc.— impacting, the meeting of the microphones, etc. donald trump zettabits on _ microphones, etc. donald trump zettabits on twitter, _ microphones, etc. donald trump zettabits on twitter, ways - microphones, etc. donald trump zettabits on twitter, ways that i zettabits on twitter, ways that the former benefit is father. donald trump looked remarkably restrained. there were no interruptions. because the mugs were muted he was able to say a lot of things about president biden double faults, misleading, exaggerations, and because the microphones omitted president biden couldn't fight back and moderators were not for checking the assertions, essential benefited from tonight. essential benefited from toni . ht. . essential benefited from toniaht. ., tonight. on that point, it was somewhat — tonight. on that point, it was somewhat unusual _ tonight. on that point, it was somewhat unusual that - tonight. on that point, it was somewhat unusual that the i somewhat unusual that the moderators were not fact checking and pushing back against things. missing passed ablaze they have done that. was there any particular reason for

that, agreed with the campaign? they cannot speak about that. you know it is hard on the flight to do these things. you have seen variations on this and what has been going on. tonight you saw the candidates talking to each other and the moderators were less of a presence and they sometimes are in these debates.— in these debates. what do you think in terms _ in these debates. what do you think in terms of— in these debates. what do you think in terms ofjoe _ in these debates. what do you think in terms ofjoe biden's i think in terms ofjoe biden's performance then? that is a major talking point tonight. think president biden struggled a bit at the beginning amazing to get animated and find his groove may be 30 minutes in. but by that point the clips that the trump campaign wanted they got, they are starting to circulate. you can see the energy down on the floor, the trump campaign had the surrogate is out immediately, they dominated the floor, blood campaign came out later. they're stronger now but there strong anabolism for more of a reactive energy from them to talk about what happened. hagar talk about what happened. how do ou talk about what happened. how do you think — talk about what happened. how do you think this _ talk about what happened. how do you think this will have impacted voters, what will they have taken away from a base or deny? have taken away from a base or den ? �* , ., ., have taken away from a base or den ? �*, ., ., deny? it's hard to say. it depends _ deny? it's hard to say. it depends on _ deny? it's hard to say. it depends on what - deny? it's hard to say. it depends on what you - deny? it's hard to say. it i depends on what you went deny? it's hard to say. it - depends on what you went into this debate thinking. these are

two people everyone is pretty familiar with at this point, if you're looking for signs that trump's narrative about biden was false you might struggle a bit with what you watched. on the other hand, if the substance of what trump was saying including, he was pretty reluctant to say he would accept the results of the election, he had been pushed several times on 6january. if you're looking at those issues are things that really affect the way you but you might see the way you but you might see the what he said and say this is not my guy. the what he said and say this is not my guy-— the what he said and say this is not my guy. would you have exected is not my guy. would you have expected to — is not my guy. would you have expected to see _ is not my guy. would you have expected to see both - is not my guy. would you have expected to see both of - is not my guy. would you have expected to see both of them | expected to see both of them outline their vision for the future? there was a loss of going back into the bars which are supposed to be expected when you have two presidents there. , . , when you have two presidents there. , ., , i. when you have two presidents there. , ., , ., when you have two presidents there. , . ., , . there. generally you do expect two candidates _ there. generally you do expect two candidates talk _ there. generally you do expect two candidates talk about - there. generally you do expectj two candidates talk about their vision for the future and one thing that is interesting is when you have an incumbent president they are running on the record and the challenge would be running on the future in this case the challenger already has four mr rann. the telling moment for me as they seem to be going back and forth about which one of them was the worst president in the history of the country. we've never

seen anything like that in the debate. we never had two candidates are would have that argument. it candidates are would have that an ument. , ~ candidates are would have that argument-— argument. it is like tuning into the former _ argument. it is like tuning j into the former presidents argument. it is like tuning - into the former presidents club or something. into the former presidents club orsomething. it into the former presidents club or something-— or something. it was striking. i think everyone _ or something. it was striking. i think everyone was - or something. it was striking. i think everyone was talking i i think everyone was talking about how unprecedented it was. you can never have a conversation like that before. we use that a lot of these days. you cover the trump campaign. it's done now come onto what's next. he campaign. it's done now come onto what's next.— onto what's next. he will be in vir: inia onto what's next. he will be in virginia tomorrow _ onto what's next. he will be in virginia tomorrow for - onto what's next. he will be in virginia tomorrow for a - onto what's next. he will be in virginia tomorrow for a rally, i virginia tomorrow for a rally, the trump campaign is hoping they can put it on the map, it has been democrat leading edge presidential elections was to a rally there. there is convention which is in two or 2.5 weeks, until then there will be conversations about running mates, the platform, the convention schedule, all of thatis the convention schedule, all of that is up in the air. a, the convention schedule, all of that is up in the air.— that is up in the air. a shout out for rick _ that is up in the air. a shout out for rick scott, _ that is up in the air. a shout out for rick scott, sorry, i that is up in the air. a shout| out for rick scott, sorry, tim scott during the debate. was that a bit of a tell as to who. .. that a bit of a tell as to who... i that a bit of a tell as to who- - -_ that a bit of a tell as to who... ., ., who... i could say or not. there have _ who... i could say or not. there have been - who... i could say or not. there have been three i who... i could say or not. - there have been three names widely reported right now to be the document —— contenders anne scott is on the second tier based on reporting a lot of

people have done. tom does bring out the work he does with tim scott during his presidency, reaching out to black voters. tim scott has been a surrogate is trump tries to get latin americans on his side. ~ ., ., ., ., side. when read into that at the moment. _ side. when read into that at the moment. who - side. when read into that at the moment. who knows i side. when read into that at - the moment. who knows anymore, right? very good, thanks for coming to talk to us. michael gold of the new york times. great to have you on bbc news. america's relationship with china was also on the agenda at the cnn presidential debate. military tensions over issues like taiwan played a role, so too did the us trading relationship with the well�*s second—largest economy. joining me now is author and analyst gordon chang who has brief the national security council tom lee central intelligence agency gumble us state department, and the pentagon on china matters. thank you forjoining us. what did you make of what you heard tonight? china came in seven or eight minutes into the debate was the first mention of china. yes, there were a number of

mentions of china, really that is not what people are talking about right now. there was remarkably little substance, there were a couple of points there were a couple of points there and they focused, the candidates focused on who was going to pay before the tariffs that president trump has talked about imposing an biden said it will contribute to inflation, president trump said the chinese were going to pay for them. but, really, that is not what people are focusing on right now. the one thing about china, though, is what did the chinese officials and leaders think about tonight's debate and this was a sad day for america. because they saw a president hu just was not capable. whatever one thinks about policy, they saw a president hu was incoherent at times, mumbling, wasn't able to string together thoughts, sometimes didn't answer questions, and so i think this was a moment of concern for the united states and for its allies and partners.-

allies and partners. just expand _ allies and partners. just expand on _ allies and partners. just expand on that - allies and partners. just expand on that a - allies and partners. just expand on that a little, | allies and partners. just i expand on that a little, if allies and partners. just expand on that a little, if you would mind. what kind of concern is that going to be generating in the national community? i generating in the national community?— generating in the national communi ? ~' , community? i think they looked at, first of— community? i think they looked at, first of all, _ community? i think they looked at, first of all, a _ community? i think they looked at, first of all, a schoolyard - at, first of all, a schoolyard fight between 25—year—old's does not engender confidence in the united states. but one of them is commander in chief, one of them has an obligation to defend the united states and its partners between now and 20 january 2025. and president biden did not look like he was able to do that and i'm worried china which already pressing the united states and, for instance, in the south china sea, they could decide that the united states was not capable. present biden's administration, the state department and the president himself had given china about a dozen warnings that the united states was prepared to use force against

china to discharge our obligations to the philippines pursuant to a 1951 mutual defence treaty. china has ignored those warnings. i think after tonight they will be even more bold in trying to pressure the philippines in disregard of the philippines in disregard of the united states.— the philippines in disregard of the united states. when we look at what's happening _ the united states. when we look at what's happening in _ the united states. when we look at what's happening in the - at what's happening in the world at the moment as well and how the various conflict a kind of bleeding over into each other, if you excuse the expression, and we have president putin visiting north korea, the support that is also getting from china, do you think the view that you've just mentioned there will be shared amongst the alliance that counterbalance that's forming. i think so. we have seen, for instance, xijinping and vladimir putin took very openly about how they are the ones that are driving events and by implication the united states is finished, now, that is arrogant, i think they

overstepping, but the important point is not whether they are right or wrong, the important point is what they believe and they do believe that they can do what they want and we do see problems throughout the world, there is a war in ukraine, there is a war in ukraine, there is a war in ukraine, there is the war in the middle east, and there are insurgencies in north africa that look like wars. and then you have china pressing taiwan but more importantly china pressing the philippines. so really we have conflicts around the world that could very well merge. remember in the 1930s there were separate wars that merged into what we now call world war ii and the question is are we seeing the same dynamic today? and after tonight's debate i think there is a greater chance that bad actors will merge those conflicts into history's nxt great war. conflicts into history's nxt great war-— conflicts into history's nxt great war. right, well, we will leave it on _ great war. right, well, we will leave it on that _ great war. right, well, we will leave it on that note _ great war. right, well, we will leave it on that note for - great war. right, well, we will leave it on that note for now. i leave it on that note for now. thank you forjoining us on bbc

news. thank you for 'oining us on bbc news. . ~ thank you for 'oining us on bbc news. ., ,, , ., thank you for 'oining us on bbc news. ., ,, i. . thank you for 'oining us on bbc nash the i news. thank you so much. the team at bbc— news. thank you so much. the team at bbc verify _ news. thank you so much. the team at bbc verify has - news. thank you so much. the team at bbc verify has been i team at bbc verify has been fact checking the cnn presidential debate. my colleague helena humphreyjoins colleague helena humphrey joins me colleague helena humphreyjoins me now with more on some of those claims made. helena. thank you. let's start by looking at a claim from president biden. he said he is the only president in the last decade that doesn't have "any troops dying anywhere in the world, like prompted. let's hear that. world, like prompted. let's hearthat— hear that. the truth is, i'm the only — hear that. the truth is, i'm the only president - hear that. the truth is, i'm the only president this - hear that. the truth is, i'm - the only president this century that doesn't have any, this decade. _ that doesn't have any, this decade, have any troops dying anywhere _ decade, have any troops dying anywhere in the world like he did — anywhere in the world like he did. �* �* , ., , did. bbc verify found this claim to _ did. bbc verify found this claim to be _ did. bbc verify found this claim to be untrue. - did. bbc verify found this| claim to be untrue. three did. bbc verify found this - claim to be untrue. three us soldiers were killed in a drone attack injordan injanuary of this year during the us withdrawal from afghanistan in august 2021 13 us service members were killed in a suicide attack at castle airport. on abortion, former

president trump claim president biden "ripped the baby out of the womb in the ninth month". here is that moment. the problem _ here is that moment. the problem they _ here is that moment. the problem they have - here is that moment. the problem they have is - here is that moment. the problem they have is they are radical, — problem they have is they are radical, because _ problem they have is they are radical, because they - problem they have is they are radical, because they will - problem they have is they are | radical, because they will take the life — radical, because they will take the life of— radical, because they will take the life of a _ radical, because they will take the life of a child _ radical, because they will take the life of a child in _ radical, because they will take the life of a child in the - the life of a child in the eighth— the life of a child in the eighth month, - the life of a child in the eighth month, the - the life of a child in thei eighth month, the ninth the life of a child in the - eighth month, the ninth month, and even — eighth month, the ninth month, and even after— eighth month, the ninth month, and even after birth, _ eighth month, the ninth month, and even after birth, after- and even after birth, after birth _ and even after birth, after birth if— and even after birth, after birth if you _ and even after birth, after birth. if you look - and even after birth, after birth. if you look at - and even after birth, after birth. if you look at the i birth. if you look at the former— birth. if you look at the former governor- birth. if you look at the former governor of- birth. if you look at the - former governor of virginia was willing — former governor of virginia was willing to — former governor of virginia was willing to do _ former governor of virginia was willing to do this, _ former governor of virginia was willing to do this, he _ former governor of virginia was willing to do this, he said - former governor of virginia was willing to do this, he said we i willing to do this, he said we willing to do this, he said we will put — willing to do this, he said we will put the _ willing to do this, he said we will put the baby— willing to do this, he said we will put the baby aside - willing to do this, he said we will put the baby aside and i willing to do this, he said we i will put the baby aside and we will put the baby aside and we will determine _ will put the baby aside and we will determine what _ will put the baby aside and we will determine what we - will put the baby aside and we will determine what we do - will put the baby aside and we| will determine what we do with the baby, — will determine what we do with the baby, meaning _ will determine what we do with the baby, meaning we - will determine what we do with the baby, meaning we will- will determine what we do with the baby, meaning we will killi the baby, meaning we will kill the baby, meaning we will kill the baby _ the baby, meaning we will kill the bab . �* �* , ., , the baby. bbc verify found this claim to be _ the baby. bbc verify found this claim to be wrong. _ the baby. bbc verify found this claim to be wrong. killing - the baby. bbc verify found this claim to be wrong. killing a i claim to be wrong. killing a newborn is illegal in every us state and no state is attempting to pass a law which would change that. less than 1% of abortions in the united states happen from 28 weeks onwards, that is according to data from the cdc, the national public health agency. more analysis you can to our webpage, bbc verify, and that will be back to checking the cnn presidential debate and you can visit our live blog as well. and we can go back out

now to caitriona perry live in atlanta. ., ., . ., atlanta. thanks, helena. we are in the basketball _ atlanta. thanks, helena. we are in the basketball arena - atlanta. thanks, helena. we are in the basketball arena of- in the basketball arena of georgia tech, the cnn spin room of the night. we have the thriller don't. i'm joined by anthony zurcher, goss did we get a thriller tonight. welcome to the thriller _ get a thriller tonight. welcome to the thriller don't. _ get a thriller tonight. welcome to the thriller don't. i - get a thriller tonight. welcome to the thriller don't. i don't - to the thriller don't. i don't know if it was a thriller but a lot of democrats will be coming out of tonight's to be very scared about where their party is right now and the candidates, joe biden and his team, they hunker down, they hope this is early and they have ground where they can make up have ground where they can make up their deficit they can make up up their deficit they can make up for this debate performance. i think it will be a very rough few days for democrats at the very least. few days for democrats at the very least-— very least. we have been discussing _ very least. we have been discussing conversations | very least. we have been - discussing conversations that are being held in democratic circles about an open convention, highly unlikely as thatis, convention, highly unlikely as that is, the fact that

conversations being had a something, isn't it? the fact that this even _ something, isn't it? the fact that this even comes - something, isn't it? the fact that this even comes up - something, isn't it? the fact that this even comes up is i that this even comes up is astounding. joe biden won the democratic primary process. it has all the delegates he needs to be the presidential nominee going forward and he is the incumbent, which traditionally is a very strong position to be in. because this debate happened this early — by the democrats people's own choice, they wanted this early, before they wanted this early, before the nominating conventions, does open up the speculation that may be democrats could switch to a different candidate. if this had happened in october it would have been even more devastating for the democrats because it would have happened on the eve of voting. one of the reasons democrats wanted this early was notjust to change focus or get donald trump in the spotlight but to give them time to recover. well, they have time to recover now, it is up to them and joe biden in particular to use it to their advantage.- to their advantage. you mentioned _ to their advantage. you mentioned that - to their advantage. you mentioned that the - to their advantage. you mentioned that the difference of the debate being earlier this year was up a few other changes. what impact do you

think they had, at the meeting of the microphones, the very short time is, all of that? it drains some of the energy out of it, i think the biden team wanted that, they wanted to keep donald trump from being dominating and aggressive but i think it may have helped restrained donald trump to his benefit. it kept him from talking all overjoe biden's responses. he made it seem like this is a very concerted effort to keep himself focused and disciplined and go on the attack when he had a live microphone but to keep his mouth closed whilejoe biden was talking and joe biden wasn't really able to take advantage of openings that donald trump gave him and he wasn't able to protect his weaknesses, which is what you want out of a presidential candidate in a debate like this. , , , this. nevertheless we did see ruite a this. nevertheless we did see quite a bit — this. nevertheless we did see quite a bit of _ this. nevertheless we did see quite a bit of rolling - this. nevertheless we did see quite a bit of rolling of - this. nevertheless we did see quite a bit of rolling of the i quite a bit of rolling of the sleeves and a bit of name—calling going on between both of them, didn't we? joe biden was — both of them, didn't we? joe biden was a _ both of them, didn't we? ire: biden was a box on the ropes early. even in vice president

kamala harris's admission, it was a rough start. seems to find his footing as the debate progressed, when the subject turned to abortion and january six, he was able to go on the attack there. i could box on the rope, he was able to throw a few big punches in the hopes that they landed, and he appeared rattled —— appeared to rattle donald trump a few times with his answers on abortion which were not all that great for him and for moderate voters who are looking at him to show that he has a middle ground on abortion after appointing supreme courtjustices that cancelled roe v wade and his explanation forjanuary six, he attempted to change the subject and his refusal to condemn the people who attacked the capitol directly, i think it would cost him and it's an area wherejoe biden has an advantage but the american public watching this watched the first 30 minutes more than anything. that hurt joe biden and put him in a hole that it took him a lotto try to even struggle out of. that it took him a lot to try to even struggle out of. there will be a lot _ to even struggle out of. there will be a lot of _ to even struggle out of. there will be a lot of clickable - will be a lot of clickable moments from this and talking

about voters watching the first 30 minutes, many of them will wake up in the morning and see those clips on their phone —— clippable. what story will that tell? , ., ~ tell? his line on medicare, defeating _ tell? his line on medicare, defeating medicare - tell? his line on medicare, defeating medicare was i defeating medicare was nonsensical. it will be clipped up. we've already seen these clipped collections at the trump campaign have been putting forward ofjoe biden seeming confused, disoriented while the debate is going to give them a wealth of material to work with so i think we will see donald trump's team go on the attack here and say, "see, we told you so! we will not doing deepfakes carefully doing deepfa kes carefully edited doing deepfakes carefully edited clips, this is the entire debate. the american public it and make up their own mind aboutjoe biden's fitness, his alacrity, his alacrity, his nimbleness on his feet." well, the biden campaign will want to focus on abortion and his response on the january six questions, his refusal to talk about his election denialism in 2020. they will push ahead and

will also want to get focus on joe biden's record over the past 3.5 years which they say they are proud of. the problem is this debate did not do a whole lot to is this debate did not do a whole lotto advance them on this issue, didn't give them a whole lot of material to help them make that point to the american public.— them make that point to the american public. you think the second debate _ american public. you think the second debate will _ american public. you think the second debate will go - american public. you think the second debate will go ahead? | american public. you think the | second debate will go ahead? i don't know. i thinkjoe biden will want to have a shot at this, another opportunity to show he is up to the task of debating donald trump but i'm not sure donald trump would want to have a second debate. he accomplished i think everything he wanted to do here, especially if he is still ahead in the polls in september, he may want to just stay with the path he has. brute stay with the path he has. we will wait and _ stay with the path he has. we will wait and see, along stay with the path he has. we will wait and see, a long way to go until polling day, of course. thank you as always so much forjoining us and let's go back to our panel. stephanie murphy, democrat from florida, and rodney davis, republican from illinois. writing, to go to you, there was a mention, anthony said that, of the january six issue

—— rodney. how the president refused when asked what he denounced those who have been convicted so what did you think about that and how we handle that? is something that voters care about at this point?- care about at this point? well, it's an area _ care about at this point? well, it's an area where _ care about at this point? well, it's an area where i _ care about at this point? well, it's an area where i think - care about at this point? well, it's an area where i think the i it's an area where i think the president is weak. i think president trump needs to craft a better response to inaudible january six. inaudiblejanuary january six. inaudible january six, january six. inaudiblejanuary six, have any compassion for anyone who walked into the capitol building knowingly and then complained about being prosecuted for that crime. the president needs to realise that it's a wedge issue, that the biden campaign is going to try to use against him. that being said, he was right to deflector when it comes to debate preparation and debate performance. he was right to talk about what was happening more positively onjanuary talk about what was happening more positively on january six

than what we are seeing with the biden administration right now. , , ., the biden administration right now. ,, , ., the biden administration right now. , , ., , ., as now. stephanie, your view? as somebody _ now. stephanie, your view? as somebody who _ now. stephanie, your view? as somebody who was _ now. stephanie, your view? as somebody who was on - now. stephanie, your view? as somebody who was on the - now. stephanie, your view? as i somebody who was on the january six select— somebody who was on the january six select committee, i saw up close _ six select committee, i saw up close and — six select committee, i saw up close and personal the evidence and the — close and personal the evidence and the information that we received _ and the information that we received about howjanuary six transpired, so i have deep concerns— transpired, so i have deep concerns about the former president's actions and his followers's actions on that day — followers's actions on that day i_ followers's actions on that day i do— followers's actions on that day. i do understand, though, that— day. i do understand, though, that it's — day. i do understand, though, that it's not front and centre for a — that it's not front and centre for a lot— that it's not front and centre for a lot of americans in their minds — for a lot of americans in their mindsand— for a lot of americans in their minds andi for a lot of americans in their minds and i listened to a inaudible sponsored focus group recently— inaudible sponsored focus group recently and none of the focus group — recently and none of the focus group members when prompted, either— group members when prompted, either about democracy or about trump's — either about democracy or about trump's term, even brought up the words — trump's term, even brought up the words "january six" and so while — the words "january six" and so while it— the words "january six" and so while it is— the words "january six" and so while it is the reason forjoe

biden— while it is the reason forjoe biden to _ while it is the reason forjoe biden to want to win this election, it cannot be the how of how— election, it cannot be the how of how he _ election, it cannot be the how of how he wins this election. he has— of how he wins this election. he has to _ of how he wins this election. he has to focus on the economic issues _ he has to focus on the economic issues that— he has to focus on the economic issues that matter to broad swathes _ issues that matter to broad swathes of americans and especially those independent voters — especially those independent voters who are not necessarily remembering what happened three years ago— remembering what happened three years ago onjanuary remembering what happened three years ago on january six and using — years ago on january six and using that as their motivating, you know. _ using that as their motivating, you know, factor for inaudible. do you _ you know, factor for inaudible. do you think president biden did a good job of reaching into those voters you mentioned? i think the good news is that this— think the good news is that this debate is still months out from — this debate is still months out from the _ this debate is still months out from the actual election and i think— from the actual election and i think it — from the actual election and i think it was done on purpose by his campaign in the ——if he didn't— his campaign in the ——if he didn't go— his campaign in the ——if he didn't go the way they wanted it to — didn't go the way they wanted it to for— didn't go the way they wanted it to. for him to continue to sharpen— it to. for him to continue to sharpen his message and reach out to— sharpen his message and reach out to those swing voters that he needs— out to those swing voters that he needs and ——in the handful of states— he needs and ——in the handful of states in— he needs and ——in the handful of states in the us that will be determining the outcome of our election and so, there's more — our election and so, there's more that— our election and so, there's more that can be done to remind

people _ more that can be done to remind people that he is a president who— people that he is a president who upholds our democratic norms. _ who upholds our democratic norms, who will protect the rights _ norms, who will protect the rights, reproductive rights of women — rights, reproductive rights of women and he has a chance of laying — women and he has a chance of laying out _ women and he has a chance of laying out a future plan for how — laying out a future plan for how he _ laying out a future plan for how he is _ laying out a future plan for how he is going to inaudible for the — how he is going to inaudible for the american people. writing, _ for the american people. writing, on the point of accepting the election results come november, whatever they may be, the president had to be asked that a few times before he said something along the lines of if the election is fair, then i will —— rodney. qualified answer. how do you think about his response to that? , , ., , that? he is being honest. if the election _ that? he is being honest. if the election results - that? he is being honest. if the election results come i that? he is being honest. if. the election results come back fairly. — the election results come back fairly, he's going to accept them _ fairly, he's going to accept them i_ fairly, he's going to accept them. i mean, obviously, the american— them. i mean, obviously, the american people accept the election results. i remember my first opponent in 2012 didn't concede, _ first opponent in 2012 didn't concede, it didn't make me any less— concede, it didn't make me any less of— concede, it didn't make me any less of a — concede, it didn't make me any less of a congressman when i raised — less of a congressman when i raised my— less of a congressman when i raised my right hand and was

sworn — raised my right hand and was sworn in _ raised my right hand and was sworn in. similarly withjoe biden _ sworn in. similarly withjoe biden. but democrats, they've — i've watched them? election results — i've watched them? election results and frankly, president trump — results and frankly, president trump emma corrin many times. but before — trump emma corrin many times. but before i_ trump emma corrin many times. but before i watched them question election results. —— president— question election results. —— president trump's results many times — president trump's results many times it's _ president trump's results many times. it's a question of integrity in this country and i believe — integrity in this country and i believe we in america have the safest, — believe we in america have the safest, fairest election system in the — safest, fairest election system in the world and it pains me that— in the world and it pains me that republicans and democrats don't _ that republicans and democrats don't recognise that. are that republicans and democrats don't recognise that.— don't recognise that. are you concerned — don't recognise that. are you concerned yourself _ don't recognise that. are you concerned yourself about - don't recognise that. are you i concerned yourself about what may happen after the election results later this year? if it is so close?— is so close? i'm concerned because — is so close? i'm concerned because l _ is so close? i'm concerned because i certainly - is so close? i'm concerned because i certainly hope i is so close? i'm concerned i because i certainly hope that we here _ because i certainly hope that we here in washington have realised _ we here in washington have realised the security lapses that — realised the security lapses that took place leading up to and on — that took place leading up to and onjanuary six that took place leading up to and on january six and corrected them. i'm concerned, frankly— corrected them. i'm concerned, frankly more so, about the violence _ frankly more so, about the violence that ensued ifjoe

biden— violence that ensued ifjoe biden loses and the democrats to support him and the far left to support him and the far left to support him don't accept the results — to support him don't accept the results about another —— donald trump _ results about another —— donald trump january results about another —— donald trumpjanuary six. results about another -- donald trump january six.— trump january six. stephanie, do ou trump january six. stephanie, do you want — trump january six. stephanie, do you want to _ trump january six. stephanie, do you want to jump - trump january six. stephanie, do you want to jump in? - trump january six. stephanie, do you want to jump in? i - trump january six. stephanie, i do you want to jump in? i would do you want to 'ump in? i would 'ust sa do you want to 'ump in? i would just say that _ do you want to 'ump in? i would just say that t — do you want to jump in? i would just say that i do _ do you want to jump in? i would just say that i do worry - do you want to jump in? i would just say that i do worry that - just say that i do worry that if this is a close election that the strains of political violence that still exist within a system will be reignited and i think that is a concern for me but my hope is that the american people understand that we have an incredibly strong democratic system that was resilient the last time somebody tried to manipulate it but its core to our democracy to have the voters and our american citizens believe in the system and we have a good system. there are lots of checks and balances. there are ways to appeal if you think there is something wrong. but when all

of those court cases get settled, americans must accept the outcome of the election. we did here joe biden the outcome of the election. we did herejoe biden mention, of course, that donald trump is a convicted felon. —— hear. what did you think about how that plays out? would you expect the president to make more of that charge? i president to make more of that charte? ~ _, . charge? i think the convicted felon status _ charge? i think the convicted felon status did _ charge? i think the convicted felon status did help - charge? i think the convicted i felon status did help president trump raise money and polling shows that it really didn't have the kind of impact, the negative impact, among former president trump's base that people thought it may have. in fact, it fired it up and he raised a bunch of money on it and they are even selling t—shirts that say i am with the felon so it is a full embrace of that status and i'm not sure it hurt him in the way that it would have in normal political

circumstances. {iii would have in normal political circumstances.— would have in normal political circumstances. of course, the president _ circumstances. of course, the president does _ circumstances. of course, the president does not _ circumstances. of course, the president does not tend - circumstances. of course, the president does not tend to i president does not tend to appeal that conviction from new york anyway. rodney, what will happen. in the republican perspective, we will still find out who will be on the ticket with donald trump. he said he has more than likely is going to reveal that at the convention, has a rally in virginia and as well as we heard earlier and his campaign thinks that potentially may be in play. where does he go from here? ,., ., ., , here? going to virginia is something _ here? going to virginia is something i _ here? going to virginia is something i didn't - here? going to virginia is something i didn't have i here? going to virginia is| something i didn't have on here? going to virginia is - something i didn't have on my bingo— something i didn't have on my bingo card after the first bait _ bingo card after the first bait i_ bingo card after the first bait. i would bingo card after the first bait. iwould have bingo card after the first bait. i would have thought of the republican, virginia was off the — the republican, virginia was off the map. especially if donald _ off the map. especially if donald trump was a nominee. the sheer— donald trump was a nominee. the sheer fact— donald trump was a nominee. the sheer fact that he is competitive right now should inaudible spark a lot of fear into democrats circles today. i certainly — into democrats circles today. i certainly think there's going to be — certainly think there's going to be a _ certainly think there's going to be a lot of optimism among republicans, and again i watch this debate with about 30 of my former— this debate with about 30 of my former republican colleagues right— former republican colleagues right here about two blocks from — right here about two blocks from the capitol building and

they— from the capitol building and they are _ from the capitol building and they are giddy. giddy about an opportunity to win back the white — opportunity to win back the white house and be able to take the senate inaudible favourable inaudible that exists and they believe — inaudible that exists and they believe because of donald trump and low— believe because of donald trump and low propensity donald trump inaudible voters that they can win seats that are considered competitive right now and get a unified — competitive right now and get a unified inaudible and that's going — unified inaudible and that's going to allow them to extend and renew the trump tax cuts. there — and renew the trump tax cuts. there is— and renew the trump tax cuts. there is going to be a republican optimism after tonight that i don't think i ever— tonight that i don't think i ever imagined when we talk about— ever imagined when we talk about this debate just a few hours — about this debate just a few hours ago before it happened. stephanie, for his part, joe biden is shortly on his way to north carolina and will have a rally tomorrow and is then onto new york where he has a large number of campaign in manhattan and then the hamptons on saturday. where do you think things will go for him? he has to kee- things will go for him? he has to keep campaigning - things will go for him? he has to keep campaigning hard - things will go for him? he has to keep campaigning hard andj to keep campaigning hard and talking to swing voters and go

into the swing states and as well as trying to raise money and i'm sure that some of those campaign stops will be opportunities for him to reassure his democratic base, especially his donors, that he is up to this job. the especially his donors, that he is up to thisjob. the campaign marches on. it is onlyjune. i don't think a lot of swing voters will pick their head up and pay attention to the base until closer to the election day in the fall.— day in the fall. just very briefly to _ day in the fall. just very briefly to both - day in the fall. just very briefly to both of - day in the fall. just very briefly to both of you, i day in the fall. just very - briefly to both of you, after tonight when both perspectives, from both campaigns, do you think we will see that second debate taking place? stephanie? i think it's hard to back away from a commitment to debate and be able to control the around it, so i imagine that the debate will go forward and hopefully, in the next bait,

the president will not be struggling with a cold or whatever it is that his campaign said his voice was so difficult to understand. —— next debate. difficult to understand. -- next debate.— difficult to understand. --| next debate.- i've difficult to understand. -- - next debate.- i've got a next debate. rodney? i've got a cold ritht next debate. rodney? i've got a cold right now _ next debate. rodney? i've got a cold right now so _ next debate. rodney? i've got a cold right now so he _ next debate. rodney? i've got a cold right now so he can't - cold right now so he can't really _ cold right now so he can't really -- _ cold right now so he can't really —— you can't really trust _ really —— you can't really trust my— really —— you can't really trust my response but he has the second debate inaudible ha! very good. we will be talking about but no doubt when it is due to take place on the 10th of september and there is due to be a vice presidential debate as well of course but we don't yet know whether republican vice president will be. i don't know if you have any insights, rodney, but we will look forward to the convention to find that out on a grand revealfrom donald trump. thank you all very much forjoining us live from atlanta. rodney davis, former republican congressman from illinois, and stephanie murphy, former democratic brisbane.

thank you so much for watching and tuning in to watch us here, our coverage of the cnn presidential debate and you can carry on watching us on bbc news, of course, and keep up to date with all of the day's news on the bbc website. we now send you over to our colleague in london. live from london. this is bbc news. us presidentjoe biden and former president donald trump hit out at one another in a testy televised debate — the first of the 2024 election. mr biden was highly critical of his rival�*s recent court case. adding six with a porn star while your wife was pregnant —— having six. what are you talking about? you have the morals of an ali cupper. mr trump started the debate defending his economic policies while in office.

we are the greatest economy in the history of our country. we have never done so well, everybody is amazed by it. other countries were copying us. reform uk have condemned campaigners for the party who were apparently recorded making racist, homophobic and islamophobic comments while campaigning to elect nigel farage as mp. and history has been made in us sport, as the basketball player lebronjames and his son, bronnyjames, become the first father—son duo to share the same nba team. hello, i'm lukwesa burak. welcome to bbc news. we start in the us where president biden and his rival donald trump have been taking part in their tv debate ahead of this november's election.

it was the first time they had faced off since the 2020