yes, i've triaged many things. can we go and see a hedgehog, please? yes, of course, follow me. but her time with the hedgehogs is almost over because important filming is about to begin. the final return to her most famous role — stacey in gavin and stacey. can you believe we're actually going to meet tomorrow? yeah. oh, my goodness, how old are you here? - i reckon i'm about 17. it's going to be so funny getting us all together again and just seeing what we're all like. more than 18 million watched the last christmas special that left us all on a bit of a cliff—hanger. will you marry me? surely she could give us a clue as to what's happening next... marry me. five years, isn't it? i know, well, i'm the same as everybody else back home. i can't wait to find out what's happened because i remember all those years ago reading the script for the last special, and i was doing it on my phone. i got to the end, and then it says,

nessa goes down on one knee and says, you know, "will you marry me?" can't remember what she says. and i remember scrolling and going, "what? "what? it can't be the end. "can't be the end. what did he say? "what did he say?" so i'm the same as everybody. what happens? you must know. no. don't know anything. not even seen a script. so ijust hope because i've not seen anything that i haven't, you know, signed on to be running around on barry beach in a bikini because i'm not doing that at the age of a7. i know you know something. i genuinely don't. i bet you do. honestly, i cross my heart. there's no one listening. i can't even tell you anything. cross my heart. literally know nothing. i cannot give you anything at all. no, nothing. come on. you don't have to do this. not on christmas. we're going to have to wait until christmas. david sillito, bbc news, leatherhead. time for a look at the weather. here's sarah keith—lucas. we have had a lot of

good evening and welcome to newsnight, where we bring you interviews and insight. let me introduce your political panel tonight: former tory mp and levelling up minister, dehenna davison and former labour mp luciana berger, who is working on the party's mental health strategy. the new government has been busy — house—building targets have been reintroduced, and it would appear that prison reform is going to be one of the priorities

of the new government, because prisons in england and wales are reported to be 99.7% full, which is why the last conservative government introduced a scheme under which prisoners could be released up to 70 days early to relieve pressure onjails. we'll speak to the former conservative justice secretary sir robert buckland, who lost his seat last thursday night, and domestic abuse commissioner nicole jacobs. first, nick's here. what is happening? tonight a spokesperson _ what is happening? tonight a spokesperson for _ what is happening? tonight a spokesperson for the - what is happening? tonight ai spokesperson for the ministry what is happening? tonight a i spokesperson for the ministry of justice is saying that the prison system is in crisis. and it looks like on the prison estate in england and wales, there are now only 700 spare places. so you are getting very close to capacity. before we look at what the government is going to do, why don't we look at some figures to give us an idea of how close that is? we have some figures drawn up by the institute for government, drawing on some ministry ofjustice figures. i want to look at two lines. if you look at the top

line, the pink line, that is known as the usable operational capacity, and a line under it is population. in other words, if you look at that, there is just a in other words, if you look at that, there isjust a bit more in other words, if you look at that, there is just a bit more space in other words, if you look at that, there isjust a bit more space in there isjust a bit more space in the population. in 2024, they get very close and then look what happens. some projections from the ministry ofjustice from the end of last year and are going ahead to 2028, says that if we tick along like this, the population is going to overtake the capacity. there is capacity figures are charted by the institute for government. so what is the government going to do? no decisions have been formally made, but it looks like by the end of the week, shabana mahmood, the new justice secretary, will announce plans for releasing prisoners early. and it looks like she is going to be looking at what are known as standard determinate sentences. these are for people convicted of non—violent, nonsexual, non—terrorist offences. at the

moment, you are released after 50% of your sentence, and you are released on licence. so if you reoffend, you are straight back in again. that 50% could be reduced to around 45% of your sentence, maybe 43 or maybe as low as 40%. if you do that, that will free up places, as i understand it, in the low thousands. what the government will not do is reduce sentences for what are known as extended determinate sentences. that is violent, sexual or terrorist offences. currently, you are only allowed out after serving two thirds of your sentence. and it's interesting in a government statement that they are saying, we will get a grip of this situation. so we can lock up the most dangerous offenders, protect the public and make our prisons are safer for hard—working staff. in other words, they are not releasing everyone. what does this mean if you do these changes? well, you give yourself a

bigger cushion in spaces. you give yourself more time to build more prisons, and it allows you what the government is saying is more time to tackle the key long—term challenge, which is to bring down reoffending rates. that's why james timpson has been appointed as prisons minister, because that is something he is really big on. now, alex chalk, who was the conservative justice secretary and lost his seat in the general election, was looking at exactly the scheme that shabana mahmood will be announcing on friday. but that became a victim of the general election and was not seen as possible in downing street. but alex chalk did introduce some things. he had a sentencing bill in the king's speech last year. some of that was kept in the wash up. there was a thing called the home detention curfew, which survived. but the sentencing bill come through and one key thing that didn't come through was a presumption against short—term sentences, that's under

12 months, a presumption that you wouldn't send people to prison when it is under 12 months. crucially, the conservatives are saying that they did start that building programme of new prisons. they say two have been built, one is being built, one has planning permission and one is waiting to get planning permission. so you might find a strong attack from the government, government sources saying the last government sources saying the last government left our prisons in crisis. they chose to delay disaster by one more day and pursued a scorched earth policy on prisons, leaving this government to clear up their mess. you may find that the conservatives may say actually, we were building more prisons and we did have some core ideas in this area. �* , , , ., did have some core ideas in this area. �*, , , ., area. let's bring in dehenna davison and luciana — area. let's bring in dehenna davison and luciana berger. _ area. let's bring in dehenna davison and luciana berger. dehenna, - area. let's bring in dehenna davison and luciana berger. dehenna, you i area. let's bring in dehenna davison l and luciana berger. dehenna, you and yourfamily have been and luciana berger. dehenna, you and your family have been the victims of crime. i wonder if you could tell our audience what happened and how you react to the fact that it was the last tory government that started this and prisoners are being

leased early, because the prisons are full? in leased early, because the prisons are full? :: :: , ., ., are full? in 2007, my dad went into the ub are full? in 2007, my dad went into the pub and — are full? in 2007, my dad went into the pub and got _ are full? in 2007, my dad went into the pub and got into _ are full? in 2007, my dad went into the pub and got into an _ are full? in 2007, my dad went into the pub and got into an altercation. | the pub and got into an altercation. he was— the pub and got into an altercation. he was hit— the pub and got into an altercation. he was hit once and were dead before he hit _ he was hit once and were dead before he hit the _ he was hit once and were dead before he hit the ground. it is the kind of thing _ he hit the ground. it is the kind of thing you — he hit the ground. it is the kind of thing you see in movies or soap operas. — thing you see in movies or soap operas. but _ thing you see in movies or soap operas, but never expect to happen to your— operas, but never expect to happen to your family. so my entire drive for getting — to your family. so my entire drive for getting into politics was to try to do— for getting into politics was to try to do some hardcore campaigning in this space, — to do some hardcore campaigning in this space, to make sure other young people _ this space, to make sure other young people didn't have to lose parents in that— people didn't have to lose parents in that way-— people didn't have to lose parents in that wa . ., ., ,, in that way. how old were you when our dad in that way. how old were you when your dad died? _ in that way. how old were you when your dad died? 13, _ in that way. how old were you when your dad died? 13, and _ in that way. how old were you when your dad died? 13, and my - in that way. how old were you when your dad died? 13, and my dad - in that way. how old were you when your dad died? 13, and my dad was| your dad died? 13, and my dad was onl 35. your dad died? 13, and my dad was only 35- now _ your dad died? 13, and my dad was only 35. now that _ your dad died? 13, and my dad was only 35. now that i _ your dad died? 13, and my dad was only 35. now that i am _ your dad died? 13, and my dad was only 35. now that i am past - your dad died? 13, and my dad was only 35. now that i am past 30, . only 35. now that i am past 30, it makes _ only 35. now that i am past 30, it makes it— only 35. now that i am past 30, it makes it even more stark how young he was so— makes it even more stark how young he was. so for me, meeting so many families— he was. so for me, meeting so many families who — he was. so for me, meeting so many families who went through these similar— families who went through these similar assaults and lost loved ones and didnt— similar assaults and lost loved ones and didn't feel a true sense of justice — and didn't feel a true sense of justice for— and didn't feel a true sense of justice for what happened, has driven— justice for what happened, has driven me _ justice for what happened, has driven me to get more involved in that sense — driven me to get more involved in that sense of fairness in sentencing in particular, notjust for these crimes, — in particular, notjust for these crimes, hut— in particular, notjust for these crimes, but all crimes. i think there — crimes, but all crimes. i think there has— crimes, but all crimes. i think there has been a lack of confidence from _ there has been a lack of confidence from so _ there has been a lack of confidence from so many people in the public about— from so many people in the public about sentencing in this country, about— about sentencing in this country, about whetherjustice really is done —

about whetherjustice really is done so— about whetherjustice really is done. so early release, clearly, if you are _ done. so early release, clearly, if you are the — done. so early release, clearly, if you are the victim of crime and it is someone — you are the victim of crime and it is someone who has done something to your family. _ is someone who has done something to yourfamily, of is someone who has done something to your family, of course we know this doesn't _ your family, of course we know this doesn't include violent assaults, so in our— doesn't include violent assaults, so in our case, — doesn't include violent assaults, so in our case, it wouldn't have been applied~ _ in our case, it wouldn't have been applied. but if you have been robbed or something along those lines and the perpetrator is not only getting out after — the perpetrator is not only getting out after 50%, they are getting up at potentially 40%, that adds to the sense _ at potentially 40%, that adds to the sense of— at potentially 40%, that adds to the sense of injustice for the victims of crime — sense of injustice for the victims of crime and that worries me. luciana, — of crime and that worries me. luciana, if— of crime and that worries me. luciana, if labour expand this scheme and reduce the sentence at which prisoners can be released, i wonder if you would expect the conservatives to be attacking the government for that?— government for that? well, let's make no mistake _ government for that? well, let's make no mistake that _ government for that? well, let's make no mistake that the - make no mistake that the responsibility— make no mistake that the responsibility for- make no mistake that the responsibility for this - make no mistake that the responsibility for this myl make no mistake that the - responsibility for this my mind lies squarely— responsibility for this my mind lies squarely at— responsibility for this my mind lies squarely at the _ responsibility for this my mind lies squarely at the last _ responsibility for this my mind lies squarely at the last government'sl squarely at the last government's door~ _ squarely at the last government's door~ we — squarely at the last government's door~ we saw— squarely at the last government's door. we saw on _ squarely at the last government's door. we saw on that _ squarely at the last government's door. we saw on that graph, - squarely at the last government's door. we saw on that graph, thisl squarely at the last government's i door. we saw on that graph, this is something — door. we saw on that graph, this is something that _ door. we saw on that graph, this is something that any _ door. we saw on that graph, this is something that any government. door. we saw on that graph, this is. something that any government could and should _ something that any government could and should have _ something that any government could and should have planned _ something that any government could and should have planned for. - something that any government could and should have planned for. one - something that any government could and should have planned for. one or. and should have planned for. one or two prisons — and should have planned for. one or two prisons have _ and should have planned for. one or two prisons have been— and should have planned for. one or two prisons have been built, - and should have planned for. one or two prisons have been built, but - two prisons have been built, but this is— two prisons have been built, but this is no— two prisons have been built, but this is no surprise. _ two prisons have been built, but this is no surprise. you - two prisons have been built, but this is no surprise. you talked . this is no surprise. you talked about— this is no surprise. you talked about the _ this is no surprise. you talked about the scorched _ this is no surprise. you talked about the scorched earth - this is no surprise. you talked. about the scorched earth policy this is no surprise. you talked - about the scorched earth policy of governing, — about the scorched earth policy of governing, and _ about the scorched earth policy of governing, and that— about the scorched earth policy of governing, and that is— about the scorched earth policy of i governing, and that is symptomatic of the _ governing, and that is symptomatic of the government _ governing, and that is symptomatic of the government that _ governing, and that is symptomatic of the government that has - governing, and that is symptomatic of the government that has been i governing, and that is symptomatic. of the government that has been left behind _ of the government that has been left behind this — of the government that has been left behind this is — of the government that has been left behind. this is a _ of the government that has been left behind. this is a serious _

of the government that has been left behind. this is a serious issue - of the government that has been left behind. this is a serious issue and i behind. this is a serious issue and the implications— behind. this is a serious issue and the implications for— behind. this is a serious issue and the implications for what - behind. this is a serious issue and the implications for what comes i behind. this is a serious issue and i the implications for what comes down the implications for what comes down the line _ the implications for what comes down the line are _ the implications for what comes down the line are serious. _ the implications for what comes down the line are serious. there _ the implications for what comes down the line are serious. there are - the implications for what comes down the line are serious. there are no- the line are serious. there are no easy— the line are serious. there are no easy decisions _ the line are serious. there are no easy decisions that _ the line are serious. there are no easy decisions that can _ the line are serious. there are no easy decisions that can be - the line are serious. there are no easy decisions that can be madel the line are serious. there are no. easy decisions that can be made in the wake _ easy decisions that can be made in the wake of— easy decisions that can be made in the wake of the situation - easy decisions that can be made in the wake of the situation that i easy decisions that can be made in the wake of the situation that the. the wake of the situation that the new government _ the wake of the situation that the new government finds _ the wake of the situation that the new government finds itself- the wake of the situation that the new government finds itself in. l the wake of the situation that the new government finds itself in. it is the _ new government finds itself in. it is the first— new government finds itself in. it is the first monday _ new government finds itself in. it is the first monday of _ new government finds itself in. it is the first monday of a _ new government finds itself in. it is the first monday of a labour i is the first monday of a labour government— is the first monday of a labour government and _ is the first monday of a labour government and we _ is the first monday of a labour government and we are - is the first monday of a labour| government and we are talking is the first monday of a labour - government and we are talking about the implications— government and we are talking about the implications of— government and we are talking about the implications of the _ government and we are talking about the implications of the police - government and we are talking about the implications of the police not- the implications of the police not being _ the implications of the police not being able — the implications of the police not being able to— the implications of the police not being able to arrest _ the implications of the police not being able to arrest and - the implications of the police not being able to arrest and court i the implications of the police not being able to arrest and court isl being able to arrest and court is not being — being able to arrest and court is not being able _ being able to arrest and court is not being able to _ being able to arrest and court is not being able to conduct - being able to arrest and court is not being able to conduct trials. being able to arrest and court is . not being able to conduct trials. it is serious — not being able to conduct trials. it is serious and _ not being able to conduct trials. it is serious and any _ not being able to conduct trials. it is serious and any incoming - is serious and any incoming government— is serious and any incoming government minister- is serious and any incoming government minister will. is serious and any incoming i government minister will have to consider— government minister will have to consider all— government minister will have to consider all the _ government minister will have to consider all the different- government minister will have to consider all the different things i consider all the different things that are — consider all the different things that are available _ consider all the different things that are available to _ consider all the different things that are available to it. - consider all the different things that are available to it. as i consider all the different things that are available to it. as you i that are available to it. as you set, _ that are available to it. as you set. the — that are available to it. as you set. the policy— that are available to it. as you set, the policy that _ that are available to it. as you set, the policy that is- that are available to it. as you set, the policy that is alreadyl set, the policy that is already being — set, the policy that is already being done _ set, the policy that is already being done of— set, the policy that is already being done of early— set, the policy that is already being done of early release . set, the policy that is already . being done of early release had set, the policy that is already i being done of early release had to being done of early release had to be instigated _ being done of early release had to be instigated because _ being done of early release had to be instigated because the - being done of early release had to be instigated because the prisonsl be instigated because the prisons were not— be instigated because the prisons were not built. _ be instigated because the prisons were not built. it— be instigated because the prisons were not built. it is— be instigated because the prisons were not built. it is important- be instigated because the prisonsl were not built. it is important that labour— were not built. it is important that labour has — were not built. it is important that labour has identified _ were not built. it is important that labour has identified the - were not built. it is important that labour has identified the fact i were not built. it is important that labour has identified the fact that| labour has identified the fact that prisons _ labour has identified the fact that prisons should _ labour has identified the fact that prisons should be _ labour has identified the fact that prisons should be determined i labour has identified the fact that prisons should be determined asl labour has identified the fact that| prisons should be determined as a nationally— prisons should be determined as a nationally significant _ nationally significant infrastructure - nationally significant infrastructure so- nationally significantl infrastructure so that nationally significant _ infrastructure so that ministers can make _ infrastructure so that ministers can make those — infrastructure so that ministers can make those decisions _ infrastructure so that ministers can make those decisions and - infrastructure so that ministers can make those decisions and take i infrastructure so that ministers can i make those decisions and take them out of— make those decisions and take them out of the _ make those decisions and take them out of the hands _ make those decisions and take them out of the hands of _ make those decisions and take them out of the hands of local— make those decisions and take them out of the hands of local areas. i out of the hands of local areas. things— out of the hands of local areas. things like _ out of the hands of local areas. things like this _ out of the hands of local areas. things like this are _ out of the hands of local areas. things like this are nationally l things like this are nationally significant _ things like this are nationally significant and _ things like this are nationally significant and we _ things like this are nationally significant and we have - things like this are nationally significant and we have a i significant and we have a significant _ significant and we have a significant problem i significant and we have a significant problem thatl significant and we have a i significant problem that we significant and we have a - significant problem that we are discussing. _ significant problem that we are discussing, but— significant problem that we are discussing, but it's _ significant problem that we are discussing, but it's not - significant problem that we are discussing, but it's not going i significant problem that we are | discussing, but it's not going to significant problem that we are i discussing, but it's not going to be an easy— discussing, but it's not going to be an easy decision _ discussing, but it's not going to be an easy decision for— discussing, but it's not going to be an easy decision for any— discussing, but it's not going to be an easy decision for any of- discussing, but it's not going to be an easy decision for any of the i discussing, but it's not going to be an easy decision for any of the ja l an easy decision for any of the ja justice _ an easy decision for any of the ja justice team _ an easy decision for any of the ja justice team under— an easy decision for any of the ja justice team under the _ an easy decision for any of the ja i justice team under the leadership of shabana _ justice team under the leadership of shabana mahmood _ justice team under the leadership of shabana mahmood to _ justice team under the leadership of shabana mahmood to be _ justice team under the leadership of shabana mahmood to be making i justice team under the leadership of. shabana mahmood to be making over the next _ shabana mahmood to be making over the next few — shabana mahmood to be making over the next few days. _ shabana mahmood to be making over the next few days. so _ shabana mahmood to be making over the next few days.— the next few days. so when the decision was _

the next few days. so when the decision was first _ the next few days. so when the decision was first made, - the next few days. so when the decision was first made, it i the next few days. so when the decision was first made, it was| the next few days. so when the i decision was first made, it was last october when prisoners started to be released early under the last conservative government. how do you feel when you hear that that is going to be your policy? it’s going to be your policy? it's uncomfortable. _ going to be your policy? it's uncomfortable. that is not to say that the — uncomfortable. that is not to say that the ministry ofjustice before the general election were not working — the general election were not working hard on this. i had many conversations with the justice secretary alex chalk to get his reassurances that the work we were doing _ reassurances that the work we were doing around sentencing would not be held back— doing around sentencing would not be held back by the issues around prisoner— held back by the issues around prisoner capacity. and i got those assurances — prisoner capacity. and i got those assurances from him. he ran me through— assurances from him. he ran me through the _ assurances from him. he ran me through the steps that were being taken _ through the steps that were being taken. my biggest concern, as i say, is around _ taken. my biggest concern, as i say, is around the — taken. my biggest concern, as i say, is around the confidence of the public— is around the confidence of the public when it comes to criminal justice _ public when it comes to criminal justice bill and sentencing. but essentially. — justice bill and sentencing. but essentially, we _ justice bill and sentencing. emit essentially, we are saying that if you are convicted of burglary, convicted of stalking or other domestic abuse offences, you get out after 50% of your sentence under the tories, or possibly 43% or 40% under a labour government because the

prisons are nearly full. that's disgusting, isn't it? again, for any incomin: disgusting, isn't it? again, for any incoming government, _ disgusting, isn't it? again, for any incoming government, they i disgusting, isn't it? again, for any incoming government, they are i disgusting, isn't it? again, for any i incoming government, they are going to be faced _ incoming government, they are going to be faced with— incoming government, they are going to be faced with some _ incoming government, they are going to be faced with some tough - to be faced with some tough decisions _ to be faced with some tough decisions. that _ to be faced with some tough decisions. that is _ to be faced with some tough decisions. that is the - to be faced with some tough decisions. that is the legacy| to be faced with some tough i decisions. that is the legacy of what _ decisions. that is the legacy of what has — decisions. that is the legacy of what has been _ decisions. that is the legacy of what has been left _ decisions. that is the legacy of what has been left behind i decisions. that is the legacy of what has been left behind an. what has been left behind an inheritance _ what has been left behind an inheritance which— what has been left behind an inheritance which is - what has been left behind an inheritance which is one - what has been left behind an inheritance which is one of. what has been left behind an. inheritance which is one of the worst— inheritance which is one of the worst of— inheritance which is one of the worst of any— inheritance which is one of the worst of any government. - inheritance which is one of the worst of any government. this inheritance which is one of the . worst of any government. this is inheritance which is one of the - worst of any government. this is one of a list _ worst of any government. this is one of a list of— worst of any government. this is one of a list of tricky _ worst of any government. this is one of a list of tricky decisions _ worst of any government. this is one of a list of tricky decisions that - of a list of tricky decisions that the labour_ of a list of tricky decisions that the labour government- of a list of tricky decisions that the labour government will. of a list of tricky decisions that l the labour government will have of a list of tricky decisions that - the labour government will have to make _ the labour government will have to make but — the labour government will have to make. but ultimately, _ the labour government will have to make. but ultimately, this- the labour government will have to make. but ultimately, this is- the labour government will have to make. but ultimately, this is not. make. but ultimately, this is not going _ make. but ultimately, this is not going to — make. but ultimately, this is not going to be — make. but ultimately, this is not going to be a _ make. but ultimately, this is not going to be a long—term - going to be a long—term implementation. - going to be a long—term implementation. this i going to be a long—term implementation. this is| going to be a long—term - implementation. this is what the government— implementation. this is what the government will— implementation. this is what the government will have _ implementation. this is what the government will have to - implementation. this is what the government will have to do - implementation. this is what the government will have to do in - implementation. this is what the | government will have to do in the immediate — government will have to do in the immediate term _ government will have to do in the immediate term to— government will have to do in the immediate term to content - government will have to do in the immediate term to content with i government will have to do in the . immediate term to content with the reality _ immediate term to content with the reality [_ immediate term to content with the reali . ., , immediate term to content with the reali . . , ., ., immediate term to content with the reali . ., ., ., _ immediate term to content with the reali . ., ., ., . reality. i was going to say that keir starmer _ reality. i was going to say that keir starmer clearly _ reality. i was going to say that keir starmer clearly has - reality. i was going to say that| keir starmer clearly has strong views on this in the long term, regardless of the crisis in front of us. by appointing james timpson as his prison ministerfrom the prison reform trust, he strongly believes that too many people are in prison. he basically says of the prison population, a third absolutely should be in prison, a third need serious support and a third shouldn't be imprisoned. that is his

strategy. from the timson company, the locksmith, they employ a lot of ex—offenders and he says he has shown by their employment practices how you can give people, former prisoner a path that prevents them from reoffending. key facts — don't employ men under the age of 25, but women from the age of 19 are fine, he says, in terms of reoffending. back with you in a moment. last week, two days before he became pm, keir starmer had this to say about prisons. would you let prisoners out early because the jails are full? this is going to be a problem we'll inherit if we are privileged to come in to serve. i'm not going to sit here and pretend to you that i can build a prison on the first day of a labour government. so that means letting people out early. in all likelihood, we will have to continue with that because because it simply wouldn't be realistic. that was last week. we're going talk to a labour

minister tomorrow. right now, let's talk to one of the 11 former conservativejustice secretaries we've had in the past ia years, sir robert buckland, who was voted out by his constituents last week, and to the domestic abuse commissioner nicole jacobs. sir robert, can i show you and our audience that the gap between what consecutive justice audience that the gap between what consecutivejustice secretaries have promised in terms of delivering prison places over the last ten years, and what you have actually delivered. we can show that to our audience now. so you promised the yellow line and what you delivered is the pink line. it's a massive 93p- is the pink line. it's a massive gap. it is no more complicated than that. so i'm going to put to you, do you accept that the prisons overcrowding crisis is at the conservative government's doors? yes, and one of the reasons is that the remand population has increased by 20% since the covid crisis. that

means people awaiting trial or sentence. that has been a particularly difficult problem to overcome. but particularly difficult problem to overcome-— particularly difficult problem to overcome. �* h . , , overcome. but it's also because you didn't deliver _ overcome. but it's also because you didn't deliver the _ overcome. but it's also because you didn't deliver the places _ overcome. but it's also because you didn't deliver the places you - didn't deliver the places you promised. didn't deliver the places you promised-— didn't deliver the places you romised. , ,, . ~ . ., promised. rishi sunak and i got the money integrate — promised. rishi sunak and i got the money integrate the _ promised. rishi sunak and i got the money integrate the biggest - promised. rishi sunak and i got the money integrate the biggest prison | money integrate the biggest prison building programme since the victorians. and i took a close interest in making sure the planning process was as quick as possible and that the treasury rules to allow spending were fed to the ministry of justice. �* , ., �* . . i justice. and you didn't manage. i had two years — justice. and you didn't manage. i had two years to _ justice. and you didn't manage. i had two years to get _ justice. and you didn't manage. i had two years to get on - justice. and you didn't manage. i had two years to get on with - justice. and you didn't manage. i | had two years to get on with this. justice. and you didn't manage. i i had two years to get on with this. i managed it as well as i could. i want to see progress after that. i know the way prisons are being built to modern methods of construction is an excellent way to do it. i do agree with the labour approach on planning, making ita agree with the labour approach on planning, making it a national priority. why didn't you do that? because we were working on ministry ofjustice land already, so we were not having to make purchases. i had conversations with members of parliament to persuade them of the merits of having new prisons. it does seem that nimby—ism took control in some respects, i'm afraid. i was frustrated by the time

i got the boot that i wasn't able to make more progress. i do think it's important that not only do we provide more prison places, but that here and now, we also look through new technology at ways which we can punish offenders, but not use prison places. punish offenders, but not use prison laces. u, . punish offenders, but not use prison laces. . g ,, punish offenders, but not use prison laces. places. nicola jacobs, as the domestic— places. nicola jacobs, as the domestic abuse _ places. nicola jacobs, as the i domestic abuse commissioner, places. nicola jacobs, as the - domestic abuse commissioner, how alarmed are you by the early release of prisoners, which looks like it is going to continue? extremely alarmed, it seems victims are paying _ extremely alarmed, it seems victims are paying the price for this crisis and they— are paying the price for this crisis and they will be the ones who have sleepless _ and they will be the ones who have sleepless nights, thinking about, or not knowing, not being properly communicated with about release. i mean, _ communicated with about release. i mean. they— communicated with about release. i mean, they will pay a huge price including — mean, they will pay a huge price including their safety. keep in mind, — including their safety. keep in mind, for— including their safety. keep in mind, for victims of domestic abuse, the perpetrator knows where they live, everything about their life, their— live, everything about their life, their family. this is critically

important when we are thinking about managing _ important when we are thinking about managing overcrowding in this way. but the _ managing overcrowding in this way. but the victims... in this sense, the victims aren't being considered. i know. if you are convicted of a serious — i know. if you are convicted of a serious sexual offence you i know. if you are convicted of a serious sexual offence— serious sexual offence you are sta in: serious sexual offence you are staying inside. _ serious sexual offence you are staying inside, anna _ serious sexual offence you are staying inside, anna -- - serious sexual offence you are staying inside, anna -- and i staying inside, anna —— and terrorism. i staying inside, anna -- and terrorism-— staying inside, anna -- and terrorism. . ~ , , terrorism. i take issue with the word serious _ terrorism. i take issue with the word serious because - terrorism. i take issue with the word serious because domestic abusers— word serious because domestic abusers and what they are convicted for can— abusers and what they are convicted for can vary— abusers and what they are convicted for can vary greatly. also it is important _ for can vary greatly. also it is important to keep in mind how few domestic— important to keep in mind how few domestic abusers are convicted. we've _ domestic abusers are convicted. we've got— domestic abusers are convicted. we've got 5%, which is perhaps a whole _ we've got 5%, which is perhaps a whole other programme worth of interviews about why that is but we have very _ interviews about why that is but we have very few victims who actually obtain _ have very few victims who actually obtain any — have very few victims who actually obtain any kind ofjustice in the criminat— obtain any kind ofjustice in the criminaljustice system and so these options. _ criminaljustice system and so these options, every single one of them are reattym —

options, every single one of them are really... delaying trials, picking _ are really... delaying trials, picking and choosing who may be released — picking and choosing who may be released early, it all boils down to victims _ released early, it all boils down to victims paying the price, often not understanding what's happening and bein- understanding what's happening and being put— understanding what's happening and being put in the firing line because of these _ being put in the firing line because of these failures. fire being put in the firing line because of these failures.— of these failures. are there any other practical _ of these failures. are there any other practical solutions? - of these failures. are there any| other practical solutions? well, of these failures. are there any i other practical solutions? well, i think that rather _ other practical solutions? well, i think that rather than _ other practical solutions? well, i think that rather than constantly| think that rather than constantly reacting to events, the government needs to have the courage to use, as i said earlier, new technology such as curfews and home detention and incarcerate people in a way that even allows them to work. so incarcerate people in a way that even allows them to work. so you are sa in: , even allows them to work. so you are saying. send — even allows them to work. so you are saying, send fewer— even allows them to work. so you are saying, send fewer people _ even allows them to work. so you are saying, send fewer people to - even allows them to work. so you are saying, send fewer people to jail? - saying, send fewer people to jail? for minor offences, yes. did saying, send fewer people to “ail? for minor offences, yesfi saying, send fewer people to “ail? for minor offences, yes. did you say that when you _ for minor offences, yes. did you say that when you were _ for minor offences, yes. did you say that when you were just _ for minor offences, yes. did you say that when you were just a _ for minor offences, yes. did you say that when you were just a secretary | that when you were just a secretary i had the chance to do something. yes. , , ., i had the chance to do something. yes. , , . ., , yes. did you pay shallow if you see m white yes. did you pay shallow if you see my white paper _ yes. did you pay shallow if you see my white paper you _ yes. did you pay shallow if you see my white paper you will— yes. did you pay shallow if you see my white paper you will see - yes. did you pay shallow if you see my white paper you will see that, l yes. did you pay shallow if you seej my white paper you will see that, a commitment i my white paper you will see that, a commitmen— my white paper you will see that, a commitmen . ., _, ., ., commitment i had a commitment to go further. commitment i had a commitment to go further- you — commitment i had a commitment to go further. you were _ commitment i had a commitment to go further. you were ignored _ commitment i had a commitment to go

further. you were ignored in _ commitment i had a commitment to go further. you were ignored in the - commitment i had a commitment to go further. you were ignored in the end i further. you were ignored in the end because people _ further. you were ignored in the end because people said _ further. you were ignored in the end because people said there _ further. you were ignored in the end because people said there were - further. you were ignored in the end because people said there were no l because people said there were no votes in that and you were accused of being soft on crime.— of being soft on crime. there is a fear of being _ of being soft on crime. there is a fear of being soft _ of being soft on crime. there is a fear of being soft on _ of being soft on crime. there is a fear of being soft on crime. - of being soft on crime. there is a fear of being soft on crime. i - fear of being soft on crime. i introduced a two thirds minimum for overfour introduced a two thirds minimum for over four year sentences, i restored that because labour had reduced it to 15% for everybody unless you are a dangerous offender. i rightly change that because i believe prison is a place to incarcerate the dangerous sexual and violent offenders for public protection. what i don't believe in is the indiscriminate use of very expensive present places as a revolving door to deal with people who need intensive support in order to get away from a life of crime. they are costing us millions every year. james timpson, i know him well and that he is committed to this, if he can crack that then he will have my full support. everybody in the country would agree with that intelligent approach to sentencing which is something i spoke about in my maiden speech ia years ago. i

my maiden speech ia years ago. i don't disagree with that at all and i don't disagree with that at all and i know— don't disagree with that at all and i know we've worked together in the past _ i know we've worked together in the past for— i know we've worked together in the past. for domestic abuse it is so important — past. for domestic abuse it is so important to understand the difference, that threat of having to consider— difference, that threat of having to consider that as a particular crime when _ consider that as a particular crime when you — consider that as a particular crime when you have a known perpetrator with a _ when you have a known perpetrator with a very — when you have a known perpetrator with a very fixated view of their victim, — with a very fixated view of their victim, often ongoing, repeated. so, home— victim, often ongoing, repeated. so, home detention, you know... et victim, often ongoing, repeated. so, home detention, you know...- home detention, you know... et not auoin to home detention, you know... et not going to work. _ home detention, you know... et not going to work, that's _ home detention, you know... et not going to work, that's what _ home detention, you know... et not going to work, that's what you're i going to work, that's what you're saying. going to work, that's what you're sa inc. ., going to work, that's what you're sa in. ., , ., going to work, that's what you're sa inc. ., . ., ., going to work, that's what you're sa in. ., . ., ., ., , saying. for some and not for others. the inspectorate _ saying. for some and not for others. the inspectorate of _ saying. for some and not for others. the inspectorate of probation, - saying. for some and not for others. the inspectorate of probation, you i the inspectorate of probation, you know, _ the inspectorate of probation, you know, pointed out for us that one third _ know, pointed out for us that one third of— know, pointed out for us that one third of people who are monitored or unticensed _ third of people who are monitored or unlicensed through probation are domestic— unlicensed through probation are domestic abusers. they may not be imprisoned — domestic abusers. they may not be imprisoned for domestic abuse -retated — imprisoned for domestic abuse —related offences but they are known domestic— —related offences but they are known domestic abusers and this is where some _ domestic abusers and this is where some office unravels. we must understand the population we are dealing _ understand the population we are dealing with, the risks they pose, whether— dealing with, the risks they pose, whether they are in a category of

"higher— whether they are in a category of "higher risk", they could be convicted _ "higher risk", they could be convicted of something different and this is— convicted of something different and this is where we need more support for victims — this is where we need more support for victims and more work within probation — for victims and more work within probation to link with, you know, victim _ probation to link with, you know, victim liaison officers, having that, — victim liaison officers, having that, to — victim liaison officers, having that, to mitigate these risks. as we try and _ that, to mitigate these risks. as we try and deat— that, to mitigate these risks. as we try and deal with these crises we have _ try and deal with these crises we have to — try and deal with these crises we have to mitigate these risks for victims — have to mitigate these risks for victims properly. can have to mitigate these risks for victims properly.— victims properly. can i ask you about the _ victims properly. can i ask you about the tory _ victims properly. can i ask you about the tory leadership - victims properly. can i ask you - about the tory leadership contest? you aren't an mp any more and you are still a member so you will presumably get a vote. i are still a member so you will presumably get a vote.- are still a member so you will- presumably get a vote.- who presumably get a vote. i will. who don't ou presumably get a vote. i will. who don't you want _ presumably get a vote. i will. who don't you want to _ presumably get a vote. i will. who don't you want to see _ presumably get a vote. in ii. who don't you want to see leading presumably get a vote. iii-h" ll. who don't you want to see leading your party? don't you want to see leading your .a ? �* , , don't you want to see leading your -a ? �* , , . don't you want to see leading your party? anybody wanting to invite ni . el party? anybody wanting to invite nigel farage _ party? anybody wanting to invite nigel farage into _ party? anybody wanting to invite nigel farage into the _ party? anybody wanting to invite l nigel farage into the conservative party would not be a suitable person to be leader of the conservative party. to be leader of the conservative pa . �* , to be leader of the conservative party. because right there because ou are party. because right there because you are talking _ party. because right there because you are talking about _ party. because right there because you are talking about suella - you are talking about suella braverman who tweeted today. i'm going to rate it off my phone. here it is. yvette cooper has talked

about the first steps of establishing a new uk border security command to go after the criminal gangs who are bringing people across the channel. suella braverman saying the uk will become an even bigger magnet for illegal arrivals, we need to leave the echr, scrap the hra and nothing else matters, so she wouldn't get your vote? ., ., ., “ matters, so she wouldn't get your vote? ., ., ., .. ., matters, so she wouldn't get your vote? ., ., ~ , matters, so she wouldn't get your vote? ., ., . , . vote? no, we look out whitley and we are an internationalist _ vote? no, we look out whitley and we are an internationalist party _ vote? no, we look out whitley and we are an internationalist party and - are an internationalist party and always have been. we take our responsibilities seriously. that is a massive red herring, it doesn't solve the problem of migration from war—torn parts of the world. the only way to deal with that is international cooperation, quotas where we take our fair share. you sound like — where we take our fair share. you sound like a _ where we take our fair share. you sound like a labour politician. i'm certainl sound like a labour politician. i�*rn certainly not a labour politician, i'm a tory and anyone suggesting i'm a social democrat, they don't

understand the conservative party and the fact that we are seeking to address the hard questions and give honest answers. more importantly than any personality contest that we might have is what the values of the conservative party are. i know what mine are, compassionate conservative values that have underpinned the success of the conservative party through the generations. if we throw that away we will end any prospect of a conservative government. that's something i can't contemplate and i know that thousands of other members and millions of voters as well would agree. and millions of voters as well would auree. ~ ., and millions of voters as well would a. ree, . ., ., , and millions of voters as well would aree. . ., .,, ~' and millions of voters as well would an ree, ~ ., .,, " ., and millions of voters as well would auree.~ . ~ ., ., agree. what was it like for you to lose our agree. what was it like for you to lose your seat? _ agree. what was it like for you to lose your seat? well, _ agree. what was it like for you to lose your seat? well, it - agree. what was it like for you to lose your seat? well, it was - agree. what was it like for you to l lose your seat? well, it was tough. i don't lose your seat? well, it was tough. i don't think— lose your seat? well, it was tough. i don't think being _ lose your seat? well, it was tough. i don't think being sacked - lose your seat? well, it was tough. i don't think being sacked on - lose your seat? well, it was tough. i don't think being sacked on live i i don't think being sacked on live television is the most happy way to end a political career, or temporarily end it, but worse things happen at sea. i am still here, fighting for the causes i believe in, domestic abuse, autism and the

issues i wish to continue talking about even though now i am back as a member of the public. is it about even though now i am back as a member of the public.— member of the public. is it was bein: member of the public. is it was being sacked — member of the public. is it was being sacked by _ member of the public. is it was being sacked by voters - member of the public. is it was being sacked by voters or- member of the public. is it was being sacked by voters or borisj being sacked by voters or boris johnson? ~ ., , , . ~ being sacked by voters or boris johnson? ~ ., , , _ being sacked by voters or boris johnson? ~ , _ , johnson? worst being sacked by boris johnson, johnson? worst being sacked by boris johnson. sacked _ johnson? worst being sacked by boris johnson, sacked for— johnson? worst being sacked by boris johnson, sacked for doing _ johnson? worst being sacked by boris johnson, sacked for doing a _ johnson? worst being sacked by boris johnson, sacked for doing a good - johnson, sacked for doing a good job. ifind that johnson, sacked for doing a good job. i find that very difficult. give me another two years in justice and maybe we wouldn't have the problems we have now. inttni’e’iiii and maybe we wouldn't have the problems we have now. we'll never know, problems we have now. we'll never know. thanks _ problems we have now. we'll never know, thanks for _ problems we have now. we'll never know, thanks for being _ problems we have now. we'll never know, thanks for being with - problems we have now. we'll never know, thanks for being with us. - know, thanks for being with us. nicole jay pitts, thank you. nick, what have you been hearing about the conservative leadership contest? today we had a conservative shadow cabinet reshuffle, we have had one of those in some time. this had to happen because so many members of the former cabinet lost their seats. two people have decided to leave. david cameron has decided he wanted to go. he quite fancied being foreign secretary in the house of lords but not keen on being shadow foreign secretary. his place has been taken by his former deputy, andrew mitchell, and richard

the former conservative party chairman, has gone, and that's no surprise because he was in charge of a devastating defeat. kemi badenoch, clearly going to stand for the conservative leadership, she was business and trade but now she is in a more politically sensitive role, shadow communities and housing, meaning she will shadow angela rayner, the deputy minister. tom tugendhat keeping his security prey. rishi sunak�*s intention, i understand, in his role is to be completely noncontroversial. he wants to take over until he finally goes. i can see —— he wants to tick over. three people who will almost definitely stand. i over. three people who will almost definitely stand.— definitely stand. i think we have a u-rahic. definitely stand. i think we have a graphic- kemi _ definitely stand. i think we have a graphic. kemi badenoch, - definitely stand. i think we have a graphic. kemi badenoch, victoria| graphic. kemi badenoch, victoria atkins, shadow— graphic. kemi badenoch, victoria atkins, shadow health _ graphic. kemi badenoch, victoria| atkins, shadow health secretary, graphic. kemi badenoch, victoria - atkins, shadow health secretary, and tom tugendhat and possiblyjames

cleverly, the shadow home secretary. maybe he will want to stand. {lit maybe he will want to stand. of those, jeremy hunt has ruled himself out which is why he has a green cross across his face. who would you go for? bi cross across his face. who would you no for? �* . . ., cross across his face. who would you . o for? �* , , ., ., �* go for? at this stage i wouldn't because i _ go for? at this stage i wouldn't because i haven't _ go for? at this stage i wouldn't because i haven't heard - go for? at this stage i wouldn't because i haven't heard their i go for? at this stage i wouldn't - because i haven't heard their pitch. we need _ because i haven't heard their pitch. we need someone right now who can unite _ we need someone right now who can unite the _ we need someone right now who can unite the conservative party, unite the different elements of voters who deserted _ the different elements of voters who deserted us to try and win them back but come _ deserted us to try and win them back but come up — deserted us to try and win them back but come up with a pitch for the country— but come up with a pitch for the country that is positive, optimistic and has _ country that is positive, optimistic and has proper conservative values at its _ and has proper conservative values at its core — and has proper conservative values at its core. they would get my vote. that's really— at its core. they would get my vote. that's really significant, what dehenna says because a number of seniorfigures, i reported, william hague, david cameron, who i understand have gone to rishi sunak and said, please do a michael howard and said, please do a michael howard and stick around until the tory conference and turned that into a beauty contest. rishi sunak is going to chair his first meeting of the shadow cabinet tomorrow. evidently his view is that what must happen is

that the i922 his view is that what must happen is that the 1922 committee, the backbench conservative mps, will meet tomorrow to choose a new chair. only two members of their executive have survived, geoffrey clifton—brown and bob blackman. a lot of thought is on bob blackman, not money betting! many people think he might be the person who gets to be the chair of that. the rishi sunak opinion is that it is up to the 1922 to decide the timetable and he will abide by that.— he will abide by that. sure. luciana. — he will abide by that. sure. luciana, can _ he will abide by that. sure. luciana, can the _ he will abide by that. sure. i luciana, can the conservatives he will abide by that. sure. - luciana, can the conservatives learn anything from labour in the way that they change so dramatically from 2019, that historic defeat, today's historic achievement now? there's lots that the _ historic achievement now? there's lots that the conservative - historic achievement now? there's lots that the conservative party i lots that the conservative party could _ lots that the conservative party could learn _ lots that the conservative party could learn but _ lots that the conservative party could learn but whether- lots that the conservative party could learn but whether it i lots that the conservative party i could learn but whether it chooses to is another— could learn but whether it chooses to is another matter. _ could learn but whether it chooses to is another matter. certainly- could learn but whether it chooses to is another matter. certainly thej to is another matter. certainly the labour _ to is another matter. certainly the labour party— to is another matter. certainly the labour party today _ to is another matter. certainly the labour party today is _ to is another matter. certainly the i labour party today is unrecognisable from the _ labour party today is unrecognisable from the labour— labour party today is unrecognisable from the labour party— labour party today is unrecognisable from the labour party who _ labour party today is unrecognisable from the labour party who suffered. from the labour party who suffered one of— from the labour party who suffered one of its _ from the labour party who suffered one of its greatest _ from the labour party who suffered one of its greatest defeats - from the labour party who suffered one of its greatest defeats in - one of its greatest defeats in history— one of its greatest defeats in history in _ one of its greatest defeats in history in 2019. _

one of its greatest defeats in history in 2019. defeat - one of its greatest defeats in history in 2019. defeat can i one of its greatest defeats ini history in 2019. defeat can be one of its greatest defeats in i history in 2019. defeat can be a fantastic— history in 2019. defeat can be a fantastic teacher— history in 2019. defeat can be a fantastic teacher but _ history in 2019. defeat can be a fantastic teacher but it's - history in 2019. defeat can be a fantastic teacher but it's where| history in 2019. defeat can be a i fantastic teacher but it's where the conservatives _ fantastic teacher but it's where the conservatives decide _ fantastic teacher but it's where the conservatives decide to _ fantastic teacher but it's where the conservatives decide to take i fantastic teacher but it's where the conservatives decide to take on i fantastic teacher but it's where the | conservatives decide to take on the battle _ conservatives decide to take on the battle for— conservatives decide to take on the battle for the — conservatives decide to take on the battle for the greatest _ battle for the greatest traditions of conservatism _ battle for the greatest traditions of conservatism or— battle for the greatest traditions of conservatism or continue i battle for the greatest traditions of conservatism or continue to i battle for the greatest traditions i of conservatism or continue to put party— of conservatism or continue to put party before — of conservatism or continue to put party before country— of conservatism or continue to put party before country and - of conservatism or continue to put party before country and fight i party before country and fight amongst _ party before country and fight amongst themselves. - party before country and fight amongst themselves. in i party before country and fight amongst themselves. in my i party before country and fight i amongst themselves. in my mind it party before country and fight - amongst themselves. in my mind it is pretty— amongst themselves. in my mind it is pretty irrelevant _ amongst themselves. in my mind it is pretty irrelevant. the _ amongst themselves. in my mind it is pretty irrelevant-— pretty irrelevant. the new government _ pretty irrelevant. the new government policy - pretty irrelevant. the new government policy push . pretty irrelevant. the new i government policy push today pretty irrelevant. the new - government policy push today was pretty irrelevant. the new _ government policy push today was on planning, here is the chancellor, rachel reeves. over the weekend i met with the prime minister and deputy prime minister to agree the urgent action needed to fix our planning system. today, alongside the deputy prime minister, i am taking immediate action to deliver this labour government's mission to kick—start economic growth and to take the urgent steps necessary to build the infrastructure that we need, including 1.5 million homes in the next five years. i want to show you this tweet, dehenna, from nigel huddleston, who tweeted that rachel reeves announced maybe changes to planning and housing and name checked a place in

my constituency. in my campaign i expressed concerns about labour's instincts to make top—down decisions that impact the countryside from offices in whitehall. local voices shouldn't be ignored. we know that we need more housing but it should be in the right place. i wonder if it's because of objections like that that conservatives never got to grips with housing and because of that they dropped their housing targets. that they dropped their housing tar: ets. . ., that they dropped their housing tar: ets. , . ., targets. there is an element of nimbyism _ targets. there is an element of nimbyism in — targets. there is an element of nimbyism in every _ targets. there is an element of nimbyism in every party i targets. there is an element of nimbyism in every party and i targets. there is an element of nimbyism in every party and in | targets. there is an element of i nimbyism in every party and in the conservative party that put a damper on the _ conservative party that put a damper on the big _ conservative party that put a damper on the big reforms the party wanted to make _ on the big reforms the party wanted to make. from the perspective of my generation— to make. from the perspective of my generation and those younger than me coming _ generation and those younger than me coming through, aspiring and wanting to own _ coming through, aspiring and wanting to own their— coming through, aspiring and wanting to own their own homes and if we want _ to own their own homes and if we want young — to own their own homes and if we want young people to feel that they have a _ want young people to feel that they have a proper stake in society we must _ have a proper stake in society we must build — have a proper stake in society we must build houses. it is early in the labour— must build houses. it is early in the labour government but i cast a smile _ the labour government but i cast a smile hearing rachel reeves talking about _ smile hearing rachel reeves talking about planning reforms today. yeah there will be — about planning reforms today. yeah there will be possibly _ about planning reforms today. nee—n there will be possibly even labour

mps who find that there may be some planning proposalfor their constituency, local people will be “p constituency, local people will be up in arms and they will feel that they have to represent their constituents. is the chancellor going to bulldoze through? i constituents. is the chancellor going to bulldoze through? i spent a lot of time campaigning _ going to bulldoze through? i spent a lot of time campaigning in _ going to bulldoze through? i spent a lot of time campaigning in the i lot of time campaigning in the election across the country and i heard that one of the biggest concerns on the doorstep was issues around housing, either people for themselves or their children and grandchildren felt that they couldn't have homes, that the homes weren't being dealt and that they weren't being dealt and that they were getting out of reach. and weren't being dealt and that they were getting out of reach. and then ou sa were getting out of reach. and then you say we — were getting out of reach. and then you say we will _ were getting out of reach. and then you say we will build _ were getting out of reach. and then you say we will build a _ were getting out of reach. and then you say we will build a housing i you say we will build a housing estate and they say that isn't the right place. estate and they say that isn't the right place-— estate and they say that isn't the ria-htlace.~ . , , right place. what you must consider in terms of — right place. what you must consider in terms of what _ right place. what you must consider in terms of what we've _ right place. what you must consider in terms of what we've heard i right place. what you must consider in terms of what we've heard today| in terms of what we've heard today from the chancellor is about the golden rules. it is brownfield first, the grey belt land. it is about ensuring we have the public services to complement any new house—building which hasn't been the case in some places in the country until now. you know, there's a

number of other things that i