patchy rain moving, loitering here. patchy rain across northern ireland, northern england, that sink southwards over night reaching wales and the north midlands. temperatures double figures for the most part, a0 celsius. tomorrow more rain across north—east scotland, the rain turning light and patchy at —— ia celsius. then we have this tone of damp weather for northern england, across wales, the midlands, the rain turning showery as the day goes by but across southern parts of wales, a nice day with warm sunshine to look forward to an top temperatures reaching 23 degrees. the weather will feel like it should do, like july. for friday, we have pretty unsettled weather conditions working across northern france and the chance we will see rain clipping into south—east england. 0therwise,

into south—east england. otherwise, a weak area of high pressure trying to build in from the west will break the cloud up, sunny spells at times for west scotland, northern ireland, north—west england by temperatures below average, hides between 16 and 20 degrees. the weekend, low pressure around the north sea threatens outbreaks of rain across scotland and north—east england, otherwise a few showers around but also warm spells of sunshine at last. sunshine at last. that's it. now on bbc one, let's join our colleagues an 0val an oval office summer for keir starmerjoe biden. as tony blair tells this programme that the west is not on the front foot in ukraine.

good evening and welcome to a packed show with some super—sharp insight and crackling conversation. normal service will resume shortly, but how could we not start off with the breaking news out of germany? nick — england are in the final? smash netherlands at the last minute. seat of the pants stuff as ever. is it going to happen? and rejoicing. what will be interesting is, in the next half an hour or so, we will we will be seeing keir starmer, he was the first genuine football fans to be prime minister since gordon brown, raith rovers, could talk about that to his hearts content... look at the fan zones! and keir starmer will be wanting to do that, but he can't, because he is going to the oval office. we can see him there. he will be beaming. we havejust heard in him there. he will be beaming. we have just heard in the last few minutes that keir starmer will be travelling to berlin on sunday to see england play spain in that final. and will he have this thought, march 1966, harold wilson

got his big landslide, july 1966, england won the world cup. we'll keir starmer get lucky like that? let's introduce our guests tonight. a man who is living proof that when one door closes, another one opens. the former mp and cabinet minister jacob rees—mogg is to be a star of reality tv with his one wife and six children, in his very own meet the fockers. and baroness helena kennedy, the eminent lawyer, who is keir starmer�*s former boss, and has a mind like a steel trap. nato leaders are in washington marking 75 years of the organisation, hosted byjoe biden, whose presidentialjacket is on a shaky nail, and with ukraine at the forefront of their minds. earlier today, i sat down with the former prime minister tony blair, who wasn't pulling his punches about the west's response to the ukraine war. i first asked whether he agreed with condoleeza rice that the world is more dangerous now than after 9/11. back on the agenda in a way that

wasn't then is the possibility of big power conflict, and most people would have said 20 years ago, you're never going to end up with another war in europe, and we've got a war in europe, and a war that's being fought in a particularly brutal way, and yes, there is a sort of strange type of club or alliance with russia, iran, north korea, and with china obviously the dominant player, with strong associations with those countries, even though personally i believe the chinese will set a lot of limits to their engagement with those countries. but in 2001, the major threat was seen as islamist terrorism, and at that time, you regarded putin as an ally in the fight and you wanted him to have a seat at the top table. was that a mistake? so, one of the questions i always ask myself is, was he always like that and we didn't notice it, or did he change?

i tend to think that he did change, because, of course, when i came to office, the g7 wasn't the g7, it was the g8... and gleneagles, he was standing right beside you at gleneagles. absolutely, but, so, this had all been part of the change in politics after the fall of the berlin wall. both yeltsin and putin used to come to nato gatherings and the... there was a partnership with them, so it was a very different situation in those times. and of course, we did have a common fight against terrorism, but obviously what happened over time was that first of all, he started to remove a lot of the democratic constraints in russia, and russia stopped becoming a proper democracy, and then, of course, although this happened after i left office, he started to act aggressively, although even then, i have to say, i think myself and anyone who dealt with them were genuinely shocked

by what he did in ukraine in 2022. but there were warnings. there were warnings in papers released by the national archive that you were warned about whether he could be trusted back in 2001. oh, yes, there were always warnings... yes. ..about whether he could be trusted, but, i mean, no—one was saying he was about to launch a major war in europe. but then what you had was the expansion of the eu eastwards and in the baltics, and that was seen as a threat. he saw that as a threat. well, the problem was, and this is when i began to realise we were going to have a significant difficulty with him, is that my attitude was always, and the attitude of any other western leader was, it's up to these countries to decide their future. so, if they want to join the european union, they want to come into nato, that's their choice, and i remember having a specific discussion with them over ukraine where i was saying, look, we've got no strategic...

we're not going to try and pull ukraine towards us, we've got no strategic interest in causing difficulties, but, you know, obviously in the end, it's a decision for the ukrainian people, and his attitude was, it isn't. they are part of our sphere of influence. and i think the problem... and at that point, did you realise that we were in for trouble? i certainly realised that this was going to be much more difficult, and that's why things became more difficult with him towards the end of my time in office. but as i say, at that point, it was a disagreement about our expansion of nato, it wasn't a threat of military action. but now, we are faced with horrific developments in ukraine just even this week. is the west on the front foot enough in support of ukraine? no, i think we've got to be doing more. look, in the end, if there's going to be a settlement of the ukrainian conflict, the only settlement that's going to be acceptable is one

in which russian aggression is not rewarded, and that means the ukrainians have got to be given the means and have the strength to make sure that whatever agreement ends the conflict is an agreement that's on good terms. this is not going to end in the way that the first world war or second world war ended. it will end in an agreement, but we've got a much better chance of getting a good agreement if we are giving ukraine everything they need. just on the question of the us election, because a poll for cbs at the end ofjune, 72% of registered us voters do not believe thatjoe biden has the mental or cognitive health to serve as president, and indeed, obviously, as commander—in—chief, and i wonder, is the best chance for a democratic win to think about a new candidate? kirsty. .. 0k. i've got to try! i've got to try. right, i'm going to... i'm definitely not

getting into that! but we are getting into that in a little while! but right now, first of all, jacob rees—mogg, it was notjust tony blair, was it? it was the political establishment that got putin wrong. i think that's absolutely right. i thought it was a really interesting interview, because you pointed out to sir tony that he had essentially fallen for putin, and he argued that putin had changed. i think there is no evidence for that. indeed, i think all the evidence is that putin very cleverly played the west, appeared to be onside, got as much money as he possibly could, huge oil revenues, and then pushed his policy of re—establishing the soviet union. it was the long game. it was the long game, and putin played it better than we did. but as you say, it wasn't only tony blair got it wrong. what about that picture from the g8 summit in gleneagles? i can remember back then, they were literally, he was cosying up to putin. it was the

strangest atmosphere. i was cosying up to putin. it was the strangest atmosphere. i remember it well, strangest atmosphere. i remember it well. because — strangest atmosphere. i remember it well. because i— strangest atmosphere. i remember it well, because i chaired _ strangest atmosphere. i remember it well, because i chaired the _ strangest atmosphere. i remember it well, because i chaired the british . well, because i chaired the british council_ well, because i chaired the british council at — well, because i chaired the british council at the time from 1998—2004, and i was _ council at the time from 1998—2004, and i was there when putin came, and there _ and i was there when putin came, and there was— and i was there when putin came, and there was a _ and i was there when putin came, and there was a state banquet, and everybody entertained him. i had to be everybody entertained him. i had to he had _ everybody entertained him. i had to he had a _ everybody entertained him. i had to be had a conversation with him, because — be had a conversation with him, because there was some conversation about— because there was some conversation about the _ because there was some conversation about the russians wanting to learn about _ about the russians wanting to learn about setting up something like the british— about setting up something like the british council, but a russian versioh _ british council, but a russian version. we had a sort of conversation about that, but i am a human— conversation about that, but i am a human rights lawyer, and very early on, human rights lawyer, and very early on. all— human rights lawyer, and very early on. at! the — human rights lawyer, and very early on, all the evidence was indicating that this _ on, all the evidence was indicating that this was a seriously venal man, and that— that this was a seriously venal man, and that he — that this was a seriously venal man, and that he was turning the kremlin into a _ and that he was turning the kremlin into a criminal enterprise. what happened — into a criminal enterprise. what happened was that every single opponent, from corica to ski, through— opponent, from corica to ski, through to _ opponent, from corica to ski, through to nemsov, who ended up dead, _ through to nemsov, who ended up dead. and — through to nemsov, who ended up dead, and more recently navalny... and tit _ dead, and more recently navalny... and tit fihiah — dead, and more recently navalny... and lit finian co. yes, and arrest warrant issued in the last— yes, and arrest warrant issued in the last day— yes, and arrest warrant issued in the last day for the wife of navalny. t - navalny. i met her only a few

navalny. — i met her only a few weeks ago in london _ i met her only a few weeks ago in london when she came over, a sweet and lovely— london when she came over, a sweet and lovely woman. she was not terribly — and lovely woman. she was not terribly involved in politics, and wasiust— terribly involved in politics, and was just speaking about what happened to her husband, and yet he has now— happened to her husband, and yet he has now made it clear he is going after— has now made it clear he is going after her — has now made it clear he is going after her. he goes after his enemies _ after her. he goes after his enemies. he is a really malign force. — enemies. he is a really malign force. and _ enemies. he is a really malign force, and of course, he is absolutely a malign force in relation _ absolutely a malign force in relation to our democracies. he wants— relation to our democracies. he wants the — relation to our democracies. he wants the west to be on its knees. but do _ wants the west to be on its knees. but do you — wants the west to be on its knees. but do you agree with condoleezza rice that actually the world is a more dangerous place than after 911? i think the world is a very dangerous place, and we should be deeply concerned about russia, iran and china and the intentions of those countries, we need to reinvigorate nato and boost defence spending. of course, that's exactly what is of course, that's exactly what is under discussion just now. we of course, that's exactly what is under discussionjust now. we have heard a few things from keir starmer, apart from watching the football, he had his first handshake and photocall with joe football, he had his first handshake and photocall withjoe biden, we understand he will have his first 0val understand he will have his first oval office meeting withjoe biden, bilaterally. that's right, in the last few

minutes, we have heard what the prime minister will say to the nato summit tomorrow. he will warn allies the front line defence of the euro— atlantic region is the ukrainian trenches, and the prime minister will say that the £3 billion a year in military support the uk has provided to ukraine will continue until 2030 — provided to ukraine will continue until 2030 - 31, but provided to ukraine will continue until 2030 — 31, but after that, for as long as it is needed. the prime minister said today that ukraine can use uk storm shadow missiles to target russian military targets inside russia. he will announce tomorrow that we will deliver a new package of artillery, 90 brimstone missiles, in the coming weeks to ukraine, and then the prime minister will say that nato was founded by the generation who defeated fascism, and this generation has got to follow in the footsteps of those founders, keir starmer will say. follow in the footsteps of those founders, keir starmerwill say. he founders, keir starmer will say. he will say founders, keir starmerwill say. he will say we have got to say we will support ukraine with whatever it

takes for as long as it takes to uphold our shared values and our shared security. and we understand tonight as well that f—16s, which of course, zelensky has been calling for for so long this air cover, and there are going to be f—16s, which in a way as a kind of riposte to tony blair saying, we are not on the front foot about ukraine? i think tony blair is right to some extent _ extent. i - extent. i don't think enough extent. — i don't think enough of our democracies in the west have made the argument strongly enough to our people _ the argument strongly enough to our people about why this matters, about the real— people about why this matters, about the real nature of this threat, and particularly — the real nature of this threat, and particularly the americans, ukraine seems _ particularly the americans, ukraine seems very, very far away and an awful— seems very, very far away and an awful lot — seems very, very far away and an awful lot of— seems very, very far away and an awful lot of republicans, for example, do not want this money to be to— example, do not want this money to be to ukraine and all this alms support, — be to ukraine and all this alms support, and they really feel, what has this— support, and they really feel, what has this got to do with us? and that sense _ has this got to do with us? and that sense that — has this got to do with us? and that sense that this is a really, really major— sense that this is a really, really major threat to the world has not .ot

major threat to the world has not got through to many of the peoples. yes, got through to many of the peoples. yes. so _ got through to many of the peoples. yes. so we — got through to many of the peoples. yes, so we are now in a situation where we are at 75 years of nato, and actually, the conversation is also about whether or not the leader of the free world should run again for president, nick? absolutely, and growing numbers of democrats are openly saying joe biden really cannot be on the ticket, but what we have not yet had is the leader is on the hill, the democratic leaders, saying he should go. for him to decide to go, it has really got to be those leaders, or the elders, but today, we did hear from one of the most important elders, nancy pelosi, the former democratic speaker of representatives. she appeared on morning joe, the msnbc programme fronted byjoe scarborough. the significance of that is thatjoe biden went on that show on monday and said, i am the nominee, i am not going anywhere. nancy pelosi was a little more equivocal. it's up to the president to decide if he is fine to run.

we are all encouraging him to make that decision, because time is running short. i want him to do whatever he decides to do, and that's the way it is. whatever he decides, we go with. i think it's really important, and i would hope everyone would join in, to let him deal with this nato conference. this is a very big deal. 30 heads, over30 heads of state are here. he is the host of it, and that means notjust hosting, it means orchestrating the discussion and setting the agenda, and he's doing so magnificently. and i've said to everyone, let'sjust hold off, whatever you're thinking. either tell somebody privately, but you don't have to put that on the table until we see how we go this week. i want to bring jacob and helena back in now, but first i want to read you this quote from george clooney in a new york times op—ed today, who said:

"this is about age. nothing more. this is from the man who is the biggest fundraiserfor this is from the man who is the biggest fundraiser for the democrats, and biggest fundraiserfor the democrats, and has been for many years. the immediate issue, jacob rees—mogg, isjoe biden. is he too old? i thought from the debate that it looked as if he is too old, and i actually thought it was deeply sad that he is a man of some distinction, the president of the us, and he seemed a confused old man, and it looks cool to make him carry on going through with this and not giving the american people a proper choice, because they need to have a candidate of the left and the candidate of the right, either of whom can run the country and be effectively the leader of the free world at a time of great danger. —— it looks cruel. the presidency matters. there is not someone who can effectively and do

it, and the final decisions must be signed off by the president. you are a trump fan... he is only three years younger thanjoe biden. age is not a thing that is generally spread evenly? i don't think entirely at about age, we'rejust i don't think entirely at about age, we're just listening i don't think entirely at about age, we'rejust listening to i don't think entirely at about age, we're just listening to nancy pelosi, whose brother the same age asjoe biden, and what she has a really important about her contemporary tone. —— she is broadly the same age. it's about competence, the same age. it's about competence, the question is, isjoe biden able to fulfil the role? the question is, is joe biden able to fulfil the role?— to fulfil the role? what do you think, to fulfil the role? what do you think. from — to fulfil the role? what do you think, from your _ to fulfil the role? what do you think, from your point - to fulfil the role? what do you think, from your point of - to fulfil the role? what do you | think, from your point of view, about the whole question? it must be confused with, as it were, elderly people, because not all elderly people, because not all elderly people are the same, but in this circumstance? i people are the same, but in this circumstance?— people are the same, but in this circumstance? ., , ., . circumstance? i have been watching joe biden over— circumstance? i have been watching joe biden over the _ circumstance? i have been watching joe biden over the last _ circumstance? i have been watching joe biden over the last months - circumstance? i have been watching joe biden over the last months and| circumstance? i have been watching| joe biden over the last months and i am now— joe biden over the last months and i am now very— joe biden over the last months and i am now very familiar with the business _ am now very familiar with the business of parkinson's, because i've business of parkinson's, because i've seen— business of parkinson's, because i've seen it — business of parkinson's, because i've seen it with someone very close to n1e~_

i've seen it with someone very close to me and — i've seen it with someone very close to me and i— i've seen it with someone very close to me. and i think he is suffering from _ to me. and i think he is suffering from parkinson's. you know, you see it in his _ from parkinson's. you know, you see it in his date, — from parkinson's. you know, you see it in his gate, you see it in the rigidity. — it in his gate, you see it in the rigidity, the loss of animation in his face — rigidity, the loss of animation in his face -- — rigidity, the loss of animation in his face -- in— rigidity, the loss of animation in his face —— in his gait. and sometimes... it takes many different forms, _ sometimes... it takes many different forms, parkinson's, so it's difficult— forms, parkinson's, so it's difficult to diagnose it in a particular way, difficult to diagnose it in a particularway, but difficult to diagnose it in a particular way, but i think he has symptoms— particular way, but i think he has symptoms that suggest me he has got it. at symptoms that suggest me he has got it. �* ~ ., , _ , it. at the white house says emphatically. _ it. at the white house says emphatically, no _ it. at the white house says emphatically, no sign - it. at the white house says emphatically, no sign of. it. at the white house says | emphatically, no sign of any cognitive failure, no sign of any neurological disorder. but the truth is, of course, it's not some side bar issue, it's the most important thing... bar issue, it's the most important thin... , , , thing... sometimes these things take a while to really _ thing... sometimes these things take a while to really be _ thing... sometimes these things take a while to really be positively - a while to really be positively diagnosed. and it takes lots of investigation. but the indication to me is— investigation. but the indication to me is that — investigation. but the indication to me is that all is not well. if you're _ me is that all is not well. if you're starting out, if you're going to be _ you're starting out, if you're going to be going — you're starting out, if you're going to be going into an election at the end of— to be going into an election at the end of this — to be going into an election at the end of this year, you've got four years— end of this year, you've got four years ahead of you, and there is a suggestion— years ahead of you, and there is a suggestion something is going wrong, it's not— suggestion something is going wrong, it's not a _ suggestion something is going wrong, it's not a good auger for... presidencies lie about the health of their principal, did we have that

all the time? we heard it before. if you say... we all the time? we heard it before. if ou sa ~ , ., all the time? we heard it before. if you say---— you say... we should also be investigating _ you say... we should also be investigating whether - you say... we should also be investigating whether trump | you say... we should also be - investigating whether trump has got dementia, too. i investigating whether trump has got dementia. toe-— dementia, too. i think some of the thins dementia, too. i think some of the things that — dementia, too. i think some of the things that trump _ dementia, too. i think some of the things that trump says _ dementia, too. i think some of the things that trump says are - dementia, too. i think some of the things that trump says are so - things that trump says are so ridiculous— things that trump says are so ridiculous one _ things that trump says are so ridiculous one wonders - things that trump says are so ridiculous one wonders about| things that trump says are so i ridiculous one wonders about his mental— ridiculous one wonders about his mental capacity. _ ridiculous one wonders about his mental capacity, too. _ ridiculous one wonders about his mental capacity, too. i— ridiculous one wonders about his mental capacity, too. i actually. ridiculous one wonders about his. mental capacity, too. i actually do think— mental capacity, too. i actually do think there — mental capacity, too. i actually do think there is _ mental capacity, too. i actually do think there is an _ mental capacity, too. i actually do think there is an issue _ mental capacity, too. i actually do think there is an issue here - mental capacity, too. i actually do think there is an issue here about| think there is an issue here about people _ think there is an issue here about people standing _ think there is an issue here about people standing as _ think there is an issue here about people standing as elderly - think there is an issue here about people standing as elderly as... i | people standing as elderly as... i do people standing as elderly as... do agree with that, there people standing as elderly as...” do agree with that, there should people standing as elderly as..." do agree with that, there should be cut off. i do agree with that, there should be cut off. ~ do agree with that, there should be cut off. ,, , ., , , ., cut off. i think it should be up to voters to decide, _ cut off. i think it should be up to voters to decide, they _ cut off. i think it should be up to voters to decide, they should i cut off. i think it should be up to voters to decide, they should be free to decide, it's not for us to tell them who they must have. it just seems that president biden has become too frail to do it, and in the interests of his party and his country, he should be persuaded to stand aside, but people shouldn't be banned from voting for him. let stand aside, but people shouldn't be banned from voting for him.- banned from voting for him. let me seak banned from voting for him. let me speak about — banned from voting for him. let me speak about george _ banned from voting for him. let me speak about george clooney. - banned from voting for him. let me speak about george clooney. he . banned from voting for him. let me speak about george clooney. he is | speak about george clooney. he is very close to joe speak about george clooney. he is very close tojoe biden, he loves him, and i'm a firm believer in very close to joe biden, he loves him, and i'm a firm believer in the importance _ him, and i'm a firm believer in the importance of— him, and i'm a firm believer in the importance of speaking _ him, and i'm a firm believer in the importance of speaking truth - him, and i'm a firm believer in the importance of speaking truth to i importance of speaking truth to ower, importance of speaking truth to power. but _ importance of speaking truth to power. but it's _ importance of speaking truth to power, but it's even _ importance of speaking truth to power, but it's even harder - importance of speaking truth to power, but it's even harder to l importance of speaking truth to - power, but it's even harder to speak truth to someone you love. he power, but it's even harder to speak truth to someone you love.- truth to someone you love. he says he loves joe — truth to someone you love. he says he loves joe biden, _ truth to someone you love. he says he loves joe biden, and _ truth to someone you love. he says he loves joe biden, and he - truth to someone you love. he says he loves joe biden, and he does, i truth to someone you love. he says| he loves joe biden, and he does, his he lovesjoe biden, and he does, his wife is _ he lovesjoe biden, and he does, his wife is a _ he lovesjoe biden, and he does, his wife is a colleague _ he lovesjoe biden, and he does, his wife is a colleague of—

he lovesjoe biden, and he does, his wife is a colleague of mine _ he lovesjoe biden, and he does, his wife is a colleague of mine and - he lovesjoe biden, and he does, his wife is a colleague of mine and we . wife is a colleague of mine and we have _ wife is a colleague of mine and we have worked — wife is a colleague of mine and we have worked together— wife is a colleague of mine and we have worked together on - wife is a colleague of mine and we have worked together on many - wife is a colleague of mine and we - have worked together on many issues. for him _ have worked together on many issues. for him to _ have worked together on many issues. for him to come — have worked together on many issues. for him to come out _ have worked together on many issues. for him to come out must _ have worked together on many issues. for him to come out must have - have worked together on many issues. j for him to come out must have caused him a _ for him to come out must have caused him a lot— for him to come out must have caused him a lot of— for him to come out must have caused him a lot of pain. — for him to come out must have caused him a lot of pain. one _ for him to come out must have caused him a lot of pain-— him a lot of pain. one thought on that. if him a lot of pain. one thought on that- if you _ him a lot of pain. one thought on that. if you really _ him a lot of pain. one thought on that. if you really love _ him a lot of pain. one thought on that. if you really love someone, | that. if you really love someone, don't you tell them privately rather than through the columns of a newspaper?— than through the columns of a news--aer? , ,_ �*, newspaper? presumably he's feeling now that time _ newspaper? presumably he's feeling now that time is _ newspaper? presumably he's feeling now that time is of _ newspaper? presumably he's feeling now that time is of the _ newspaper? presumably he's feeling now that time is of the essence. - newspaper? presumably he's feeling now that time is of the essence. i . now that time is of the essence. i also talked to tony blair about some of his advice to keir starmer, not least not to full pay wokery, as he called it. we began with his big passion, generative ai, and i put it to him that it's generating troubling deep fakes. ——not least not to fall prey to wokery as he called it, but we began with his big passion "generative ai". i put it to him that a! has generated some very troubling deep fakes, most recently when wes streeting was victim of a deep fake smear network and we haven't got it right yet. it can be used for good things and bad things. my point is not to say it's

the most wonderful thing that's ever happened. my point is to say it is a transformative technology. but it's also... you know, it can also fall prey to bad actors. you know, obviously chinese, for example, russians, wherever it's coming from. i mean, the whole point, is there some kind of wall that's up to dealing with that? and the answer, no, there isn't. well, there'll have to be a whole lot of new things that are invented in order to deal with the problems. but you're not going to disinvent the technology. but yes, of course there's going to be... there'll be job displacement, there'll be all the things to do with deep fakes. actually, worse than that, it will be easier to create, um, weapons that can be used for terrorism and so on. all of that is absolutely true. but my point is simply, this is the 21st century equivalent of the 19th century industrial revolution. one man who has championed ai quite ferociously is rishi sunak. could you see him as some kind of ai tsar? he laughs. give him ajob! i don't think...| don't think keir�*s going to be rushing to do that. but... no, look, one of the advantages that britain has is that probably after america and china, britain is probably third in the world, actually, on al, which gives us an enormous opportunity. but we've got to keep

building the sector. you believe that labour does best when it inhabits the centre ground, but keir starmer calls himself a socialist. are you? well, i always called myself a socialist when people asked me, you know, i used to say... it depends what you're talking about. if you mean...if you mean a set of values... it's a catch—all. well, if you mean a set of values that are about a belief in society and community and the importance of socialjustice, yes. but if you're. . . if you're asking me, do i believe in a socialised economy, so that the state runs the economy? no, but he doesn't either. imean... look, this is a debate... i think when i was starting as a labour leader, people used to spend an enormous amount of time trying to say, "is he a socialist or not a socialist?" but it's interesting that keir starmer actually said that quite specifically. yeah, i think i... i can't absolutely remember, but i think i did, in the new clause iv that we adopted for the labour party, it says in terms we're a democratic socialist party. you gave keir starmer advice, some advice when he came into the job. and one of the bits of advice was, don't fall prey to wokeism.

i mean, what is your definition of wokeism? well, it's a good question. but i think people know what you mean by it, or know what i mean by that. what do you mean, though? it's...it's making sure that on issues that are... ..cultu rally really sensitive, you keep to... ..what i think is, keep to a pretty... ..sensible middle ground. and you just... it's, you know, we... i've had discussions on the trans issue which have, um, given rise to headlines i never thought i'd see in terms of, you know, biological discussion. but it's just, on all of this stuff the most important thing is that you're just... you're where sensible middle ground opinion is. now, people can debate where... ..where that lies in different elements and different issues. but that's my general view.

and by the way, i don't give him advice on it. it's just, this is my view as to what is sensible for government. but the reason is, it matters because in the new statesman, you said, "left wing politics has become defined by new fashioned social and cultural messages around extreme identity and anti—police politics, for which large swathes of people is voter repellent." so how would you deal with the left? because it's the left you're talking about. yeah, you've just got to say to them, "i'm sorry, i'm not doing that." look what's happened. i think the government's made a great start. they've got a lot of energy, a lot of ideas. i think what... ..what these new ministers and new mps will be feeling for the first time is, we can actually do something. yeah, but keir starmer... but you put all that at risk... but keir starmer has probably never been in, or going to be in a stronger position than he is now. so is now the time to deal with the left? well, it's not about dealing with the left. it's just about making sure that you're not... ..you're not going out of the mainstream of sensible british public opinion. 0therwise you're going to find you're ending up spending your time debating things you don't really want to debate.

finally, fraser nelson, the editor of the spectator, has said that many in this huge consultancy will end up working for the government. so how about you? what about an ambassadorship to the us? er, no, thank you very much. no, i'm very happy doing this. anyjob you would take? no, i'm not... i don't want to go back into the front line of politics. i'm very happy doing what we're doing with the institute because we do things in this country. but we're in roughly a0 countries in the world, and we've got, actually, almost 1000 people working for us. and i'm enjoying it. i'm very enthusiastic about it. and... sounds like megalomania! i'm only kidding. i'm only kidding! yeah, well. tony blair, thank you very much. thank you. we're just waiting for news from the oval of that bilateral between keir

0val of that bilateral between keir starmer and joe biden —— from the oval office. let's pick back up on the tony blair interview there. he sets himself up, doesn't he? he talks about wokery but actually, doesn't. .. talks about wokery but actually, doesn't... it's like, why even mention it?— doesn't... it's like, why even mention it? y ., . ., , mention it? my advice to tony is, don't talk about _ mention it? my advice to tony is, don't talk about wokery, - mention it? my advice to tony is, don't talk about wokery, what - mention it? my advice to tony is, j don't talk about wokery, what are you talking about? wokery was invented by the right wing because they saw it as being a way of being divisive. and i think that keir starmer deals with this very well, and i heard angela rayner talking about it, we are trying to create a society in which the humanity of everybody is respected and will give dignity to everyone and if somebody is a trans person you treat them with respect, and find ways, there are practical ways through most of these problems, and turning it into something you can't go near seems to be as mad as turning it into something you're going to poke the other side with. really, something you're going to poke the otherside with. really, let's forget about wokery. it's about treating people well and treating

people with respect and dignity. let's talk about respect and dignity when it comes to the tory leadership race. you've got suella braverman talking about pride flags, she's talked about pride flags being thrown on government buildings, they are a symbol of our failure as conservatives.— are a symbol of our failure as conservatives. ,, ., , ., ,, ., ,., conservatives. she was talking about the particular— conservatives. she was talking about the particular pride _ conservatives. she was talking about the particular pride flag _ conservatives. she was talking about the particular pride flag around - conservatives. she was talking about the particular pride flag around on i the particular pride flag around on gender— the particular pride flag around on gender back issues and saying that as conservatives we know what a man is and _ as conservatives we know what a man is and what _ as conservatives we know what a man is and what a — as conservatives we know what a man is and what a woman is, so perhaps... _ is and what a woman is, so perhaps- - -_ is and what a woman is, so perhaps- - -— is and what a woman is, so --erhas... ., , �* ., , is and what a woman is, so n-erhas... ., , �* ., , perhaps... that isn't what she was sa in. perhaps... that isn't what she was saying- the _ perhaps... that isn't what she was saying- the flag — perhaps... that isn't what she was saying. the flag is _ perhaps... that isn't what she was saying. the flag is many _ perhaps... that isn't what she was saying. the flag is many colours i perhaps... that isn't what she was i saying. the flag is many colours and it's always been like that. it's not changed because of trans... she it's always been like that. it's not changed because of trans. .. she was a very clear — changed because of trans. .. she was a very clear that _ changed because of trans. .. she was a very clear that she _ changed because of trans. .. she was a very clear that she knows - changed because of trans. .. she was a very clear that she knows what i changed because of trans. .. she was a very clear that she knows what a i a very clear that she knows what a man is _ a very clear that she knows what a man is at — a very clear that she knows what a man is at the woman is and it can't be changed. — man is at the woman is and it can't be changed. she was actually answer tony blair's _ be changed. she was actually answer tony blair's wokeism question, you should _ tony blair's wokeism question, you should have — tony blair's wokeism question, you should have asked her! she tony blair's wokeism question, you should have asked her! she stoking a atriot a should have asked her! she stoking a patriot a seriously _ should have asked her! she stoking a patriot a seriously malign _ should have asked her! she stoking a patriot a seriously malign way. i should have asked her! she stoking a patriot a seriously malign way. but i patriot a seriously malign way. but when ou patriot a seriously malign way. but when you at this

now on bbc one, let's join our colleagues it was really pleased with the quality of our play, and england side had 60% of the ball from a side from the netherlands. they went england way, but also the resilience and the character of the group because 0llie watkins has trained like that every day and he's been ready for his moment no matter how frustrated he might have been, but he's ready on the whole group have been. the way that they formed, you know, it's a group with a lot of new players and half of them had never beenin players and half of them had never been in a tournament, but they've bonded so well and they've all got each other�*s back and tonight was a great example of that. each other's back and tonight was a great example of that.— great example of that. thank you, over there- _

great example of that. thank you, over there. steve _ great example of that. thank you, over there. steve from _ great example of that. thank you, over there. steve from ap, - great example of that. thank you, | over there. steve from ap, sounds like ou over there. steve from ap, sounds like you stressed _ over there. steve from ap, sounds like you stressed out _ over there. steve from ap, sounds like you stressed out the _ over there. steve from ap, sounds like you stressed out the king i over there. steve from ap, sounds like you stressed out the king back at home. _ like you stressed out the king back at home. he — like you stressed out the king back at home, he sent _ like you stressed out the king back at home, he sent a _ like you stressed out the king back at home, he sent a message - like you stressed out the king backi at home, he sent a message saying he's at _ at home, he sent a message saying he's at the — at home, he sent a message saying he's at the edge _ at home, he sent a message saying he's at the edge of _ at home, he sent a message saying he's at the edge of his _ at home, he sent a message saying he's at the edge of his seat. - at home, he sent a message saying he's at the edge of his seat. do i at home, he sent a message saying he's at the edge of his seat. do youj he's at the edge of his seat. do you have a _ he's at the edge of his seat. do you have a message _ he's at the edge of his seat. do you have a message for— he's at the edge of his seat. do you have a message for people - he's at the edge of his seat. do you have a message for people at - he's at the edge of his seat. do you. have a message for people at home, over the _ have a message for people at home, over the past— have a message for people at home, over the past few— have a message for people at home, over the past few weeks _ have a message for people at home, over the past few weeks of _ have a message for people at home, over the past few weeks of your- over the past few weeks of your late late shows. — over the past few weeks of your late late shows. , . over the past few weeks of your late late shows-— late shows. they are en'oying a few beers reauy. — late shows. they are en'oying a few beers really. we've i late shows. they are enjoying a few beers really. we've had _ beers really. we've had some incredible nights, you know, the last seven, eight years. these games have been dramatic because the goals have been dramatic because the goals have come so late, the only reason i did thejob when i took it have come so late, the only reason i did the job when i took it on was to try and bring success to england as a nation and tried to improve english football and to be able to take the team to their first final overseas, i'm immensely proud of that, but now of course we have come here to win. we had a day lester

prepare so it's a huge task but we are still here and we are fighting. 0llie moody, dw sports. kobe maynard was everywhere, seemed to be gaining confidence _ was everywhere, seemed to be gaining confidence from everything he did, pulling _ confidence from everything he did, pulling out the flicks by the end of the house, do you think this was a break-out— the house, do you think this was a break—out performance for him and in england shirt and how important is it for— england shirt and how important is it for the _ england shirt and how important is it for the team to have players like that who _ it for the team to have players like that who bring a little usefuljoy to the _ that who bring a little usefuljoy to the game with mark i think all of his performances have been exceptional.— his performances have been exceptional. his performances have been excetional. . . . . , , ., exceptional. especially when you consider his _ exceptional. especially when you consider his age. _ exceptional. especially when you consider his age. we _ exceptional. especially when you consider his age. we haven't i exceptional. especially when you l consider his age. we haven't really had a player like him until now so it makes such a difference when your midfield players can receive come across and return with the ball so easily and comfortably, it looks simple when he doesn't it isn't simple. but i thought him, phil

popping up