i'm helena humphrey. good to have you with us. world leaders gathered in washington, dc this week, for the three—day nato summit, dedicated to the alliances�* 75th anniversary. the north atlantic treaty organization was founded at the end of world war ii by the us, canada and several western european nations, as a collective security alliance against the soviet union. this week's summit focused heavily on taking steps to strengthen deterrence and defence, as well as bolstering long—term support for ukraine. it kicked off with president joe biden announcing that the us, along with several nato allies, would strengthen ukraine's air defences by providing it with more patriot missiles. my colleaguejonathan beale, spoke with general charles 0 brownjr, chairman of thejoint chiefs of staff on support for ukraine. first of all, you have just had

a nato summit, and there's been a nato summit, and there's been a strong signal of support for ukraine, in both practical in hardware, but also in terms of ukraine moving towards membership, but ukraine, one thing it says, it wants those restrictions on the weapons, long range weapons that countries like the us applies to be lifted, and i know this is a political decision. you are a military man. do you understand the frustrations of president zelenskyy having his arms tied behind his back because he can't use those weapons as he would like to use them? figs weapons as he would like to use them? �* , , ., weapons as he would like to use them? as you described it as a oli them? as you described it as a policy decision _ them? as you described it as a policy decision and _ them? as you described it as a policy decision and one - them? as you described it as a policy decision and one of - them? as you described it as a policy decision and one of the l policy decision and one of the things— policy decision and one of the things i— policy decision and one of the things i focus on as a chairman is to— things i focus on as a chairman is to work_ things i focus on as a chairman is to work closely with the nations, _ is to work closely with the nations, notjust from nato but the 15_ nations, notjust from nato but the 15 nations part of the ukraine _ the 15 nations part of the ukraine defence contact group to provide capability for ukraine to support its defence, and so — ukraine to support its defence, and so it— ukraine to support its defence, and so it is— ukraine to support its defence, and so it is that work together and so it is that work together and the — and so it is that work together and the advice i provide in my role _ and the advice i provide in my role to— and the advice i provide in my role to the _ and the advice i provide in my role to the president and the secretary of the defence to

ensure _ secretary of the defence to ensure that ukraine can do the things— ensure that ukraine can do the things it — ensure that ukraine can do the things it needs to do to defend itself — things it needs to do to defend itself. ., , ., things it needs to do to defend itself. . , ., ., ,~' itself. have you asked the president _ itself. have you asked the president to _ itself. have you asked the president to loosen - itself. have you asked the president to loosen those | president to loosen those restrictions? i president to loosen those restrictions?— president to loosen those restrictions? i won't get into the details _ restrictions? i won't get into the details of _ restrictions? i won't get into the details of the advice i i the details of the advice i provide _ the details of the advice i provide but as you might imagine, as we have done for the past _ imagine, as we have done for the past two plus years as a nation — the past two plus years as a nation with the nations of nato, _ nation with the nations of nato, continue to sit ukraine. i nato, continue to sit ukraine. iiust— nato, continue to sit ukraine. ijust listen to your list of i just listen to your list of concerns, china was top the list, russia next. how much of a threat is russia, do you think, the moment? and also, is itjust that military think, the moment? and also, is it just that military threat inside ukraine or is avatars as well that has been carried out inside western countries to try undermine support?— inside western countries to try undermine support? russia is an acute threat _ undermine support? russia is an acute threat anything _ undermine support? russia is an acute threat anything i _ undermine support? russia is an acute threat anything i think- acute threat anything i think atrout— acute threat anything i think about in— acute threat anything i think about in my role as chairman as i about in my role as chairman as i laid _ about in my role as chairman as itaid out — about in my role as chairman as i laid out the five challenges we have _ i laid out the five challenges we have in our, china was top of the — we have in our, china was top of the list _ we have in our, china was top of the list. when you think atrout— of the list. when you think about att— of the list. when you think about all those challenges, aggression that happens in one part of— aggression that happens in one part of the world does not stay there. —

part of the world does not stay there, and sol part of the world does not stay there, and so i look at that from — there, and so i look at that from an— there, and so i look at that from an aspect of how we protect— from an aspect of how we protect ourselves, how we protect _ protect ourselves, how we protect ourselves, how we protect ourselves as an alliance _ protect ourselves as an alliance and all the things we do to— alliance and all the things we do to protect notjust alliance and all the things we do to protect not just from a military— do to protect not just from a military standpoint but the 1 bitiion— military standpoint but the 1 billion citizens that depend on our nato _ billion citizens that depend on our nato military to provide for that— our nato military to provide for that defence. with the summit wrapped, i spoke with polish foreign minister radek sikorski for his thoughts on what the meeting achieved for ukraine. isa is a nato summit has just wrapped up, we saw pledges for kyiv, in terms of weaponry, f-165, kyiv, in terms of weaponry, f—16s, more financial assistance as well, to your mind, is this enough ukraine, notjust to defend itself but to turn the tide on to win this war against russia?— to turn the tide on to win this war against russia? provided we start -- stay _ war against russia? provided we start -- stay the _ war against russia? provided we start -- stay the course. - war against russia? provided we start -- stay the course. i - start —— stay the course. i think in the era to the russian economy will be in serious difficulty. of course putin is counting on political change in this country. i think he will be disappointed. wars are never linear. last year, ukraine was

on the move, this year the russians regained the initiative on the ground, but they are taking terrible losses. ukraine won the battle of the black sea. the key thing is to continue the flow of equipment. ukraine has now passed a mobilisation law, they are now meeting their numbers of recruits. putin cannot achieve his war aims and we need him to come to the conclusion that this was a criminal mistake, from which he needs to withdraw. he criminal mistake, from which he needs to withdraw.— needs to withdraw. he 'ust said that ou needs to withdraw. he 'ust said that you think i needs to withdraw. he just said that you think president - needs to withdraw. he just said that you think president putin l that you think president putin is counting on a change of direction here in washington, potentially administration. i want to talk a little bit more about that because the pledge that we saw from nato, a0 billion us dollars in assistance for one year for ukraine. ijust wonder, is poland at all concerned that without a binding mechanism on that assistance cover that a tramp presidency for example could reverse that, could undo it? ~ , �* ,

it? well, president biden blast esterda it? well, president biden blast yesterday the _ it? well, president biden blast yesterday the ukraine - it? well, president biden blast| yesterday the ukraine compact, which is a collection of bilateral agreements by countries under the g7 formula that extend well into the future, and i can tell you that in the second part of the meeting, countries were very insistent and very generous in their pledges for multi—year assistance. also remember that of the 300 billion that ukraine has already received over 60% comes from europe, so if putin thinks that a change of administration will change his position, he is wrong. but exploring _ position, he is wrong. but exploring that _ position, he is wrong. but exploring that a _ position, he is wrong. but exploring that a little bit more, taking a look at comments from former president donald trump, he has for example said on numerous occasions that essentially he would solve the war in ukraine within 2a hours, and that has led to concerns, in the words ofjens stoltenberg, but it could be an occupation, if you were to freeze the map where it is right now, and other people saying that that there is the

concern that president putin could come back for more at a later date. is that something that warsaw is concerned about? 0n that warsaw is concerned about? on this trip and even before, we meet with representatives of the alternative administration, and what president trump's people are telling us, yes, we will want to win this, and we will want to win this, and we will win by threatening putin with escalation if he doesn't agree to a fair peace formula ukraine. ~ . , agree to a fair peace formula ukraine. ~ ., , ., _ ukraine. what they mean by that, what — ukraine. what they mean by that, what kind _ ukraine. what they mean by that, what kind of _ ukraine. what they mean byj that, what kind of escalation from washington?— that, what kind of escalation from washington? giving ukraine even more _ from washington? giving ukraine even more staff— from washington? giving ukraine even more staff and _ from washington? giving ukraine even more staff and removing - even more staff and removing those restrictions example, and i think this is something putin would have to take into account. i would have to take into account-— would have to take into account. ., ., .,~ ., account. i want to take a closer look _ account. i want to take a closer look at _ account. i want to take a closer look at some - account. i want to take a closer look at some of i account. i want to take a - closer look at some of poland's actions, signing thatjoint actions, signing that joint defence actions, signing thatjoint defence pact with ukraine, and one line in particular that stood out to me was saying that warsaw would explore the idea of shooting down russian missiles heading towards polish territory whilst they remain in ukrainian airspace presumably as well giving you more time to

react. how much of a threat is that, and are there any concerns about the possibility here for russia to react to that and escalate things? we would also — that and escalate things? - would also like the world to know that we are spending a% of gdp on defence this year, going on to five next year. we have the world's 1ath defence budget already and we will defend our border whatever anybody else does. 0n the missiles, yes, we are discussing this with ukraine and with allies, and let me explain to you why. russian missiles are regularly breached polish airspace. 0ne breached polish airspace. one of their missiles traverse two thirds of poland, 500 kilometres from the ukrainian border, and landed ten kilometres from my house, which is in western poland. 0nce kilometres from my house, which is in western poland. once they are over poland, when you shoot them down, the debris is liable to damage something or kill someone. we have lost two citizens already, and some of

these missiles only breach our airspace briefly, so we don't have enough time to take them down. and what our ukrainian partners have told us, we will take the risk, please, help yourself and shoot them down from inside your territory before they even reach poland, in other words when they become an imminent threat to polish airspace. in myjudgment, this would be self defence. but we don't want to take unilateral action. we would like to do this together with allies. and this together with allies. and i this together with allies. and i perfectly — this together with allies. and i perfectly understand the threat and the risk that you were just mentioning there, but i suppose really when it comes to retaliation from russia, is that something you are exploring. i that something you are exploring-_ that something you are exlorina. ., �* ,, ,, ., exploring. i don't think russia wants a war — exploring. i don't think russia wants a war with _ exploring. i don't think russia wants a war with nato. - exploring. i don't think russia wants a war with nato. also i | wants a war with nato. also i did want to — wants a war with nato. also i did want to speak— wants a war with nato. also i did want to speak about - wants a war with nato. also i i did want to speak about ukraine and what it has been asking for from this summit, aside from that weaponry and so on, we have been speaking to other ministers particularly from baltic states as well. they

have been saying they believe that ukraine needs to be able to strike military facilities in russia with all weaponry, nothing off the table, not always a unified response i have had from allies, but they say without it they feel they are fighting this war with one hand tied behind their back. is that something that poland supports? that something that poland sopports?_ that something that poland sopports?— that something that poland su orts? , ., supports? there is nothing in international _ supports? there is nothing in international law _ supports? there is nothing in international law that - international law that precludes or bars the victim of aggression from responding to the territory of the aggressor. the russians hit a children's hospital in kyiv a couple of days ago. that missiles launched from a strategic bomber flying over russian territory. ukraine would be perfectly in its right to take it down before the missile launched, and also to attack the homebase of that bomber. that seems to me all to be in self defence. 50 that seems to me all to be in self defence.— that seems to me all to be in self defence. so is washington bein: too self defence. so is washington being too cautious _ self defence. so is washington being too cautious then, - self defence. so is washington | being too cautious then, saying that longer range missiles should not be doing that at this stage should the be being a bit cautious there?—

this stage should the be being a bit cautious there? these are american _ a bit cautious there? these are american decisions. _ a bit cautious there? these are american decisions. we - a bit cautious there? these are american decisions. we are - a bit cautious there? these are. american decisions. we are very gratefulfor american decisions. we are very grateful for what america is doing for the security of europe, for ukraine. we have had these discussions before. we discuss something, it seems a little on the brave side, and then six months later we do it. after the debate, he treated with reference to the roman empire, marcus aurelius, saying he was a great emperor but he should have managed, i think you said it is important to manage one's's raid into the sunset. you would have seen president biden plasma press conference last night over the world was watching it, do you still hold that view after that press conference, compared to what you tweeted following the debate? i what you tweeted following the debate? ., ., debate? i hold the view that marcus aurelius _ debate? i hold the view that marcus aurelius should - debate? i hold the view that marcus aurelius should not l debate? i hold the view that - marcus aurelius should not have passed the button to his natural sun, passed the button to his naturalsun, dust, he should have adopted someone who was capable, because the guy from the gladiator�*s rain was disastrous. after him we had a year of four emperors and the decline started. yes, i maintain fully my position on

marcus aurelius. but maintain fully my position on marcus aurelius.— marcus aurelius. but it was surely with _ marcus aurelius. but it was surely with reference - marcus aurelius. but it was surely with reference to - surely with reference to president biden, so do you think... ., , ,, . ., think... you might suspect that but i couldn't _ think... you might suspect that but i couldn't possibly - but i couldn't possibly comment. we do not interfere in the internal affairs of our great ally. the internal affairs of our great ally-— the internal affairs of our treat all . �* great ally. but you did tweeted after the debate. _ great ally. but you did tweeted after the debate. what - great ally. but you did tweeted after the debate. what you - after the debate. what you start interfering _ after the debate. what you start interfering on - after the debate. what you start interfering on other i start interfering on other people's internal affairs, you're on a very slippery slope, as sir humphrey says in yes minister. with the prospect of donald trump potentially returning to the oval office and back on to the world stage, some western leaders are concered about the impact mr trump could have on the future of the alliance. my colleague, carl nasman, sat down withjohn bolton, who served as un ambassador under george w bush, and briefly as national security advisor to mr trump. ambassador, ijust ambassador, i just want to start by asking you about this nato summit has just wrapped up in dc. do you think the alliance did enough to put ukraine on a path notjust to defend itself by doing this conflict against russia? well, i don't

conflict against russia? well, | don't think— conflict against russia? well, i don't think so, _ i don't think so, unfortunately. i think there were — unfortunately. i think there were good expressions of political support and i think some — political support and i think some progress in delivery of additional military assistance, but the — additional military assistance, but the fact is neither the united _ but the fact is neither the united states nor nato have really — united states nor nato have really approached this conflict effectively strategically for two years now, and i think that is one — two years now, and i think that is one reason why we have miiitary— is one reason why we have military gridlock on the ground ukraine — military gridlock on the ground ukraine. obviously the £800 gorilla — ukraine. obviously the £800 gorilla was the upcoming election for us president and the uncertainty about who was going — the uncertainty about who was going to — the uncertainty about who was going to win, and i think there is good — going to win, and i think there is good reason to be concerned and worried about a trumpet victory, _ and worried about a trumpet victory, because i don't think this— victory, because i don't think this is— victory, because i don't think this is going to be in long—term interest of the us or ukraine — long—term interest of the us or ukraine or— long—term interest of the us or ukraine or nato. long-term interest of the us or ukraine or nato._ ukraine or nato. let's talk about it — ukraine or nato. let's talk about it then, _ ukraine or nato. let's talk about it then, there - ukraine or nato. let's talk about it then, there was i ukraine or nato. let's talk about it then, there was a | ukraine or nato. let's talk. about it then, there was a lot of discussion about what some were calling trumpet proofing nato and support for ukraine. what do you think a trumpet presidency would mean the permanator and how would it affect the alliance of the us were to back away a bit? it

were to back away a bit? it could be more than backing away a bit. ithink could be more than backing away a bit. i think trump is very serious about prospectively withdrawing from nato. he may be distracted for four years. that may not happen but he could weaken it in other ways. i think he likes the idea of doing something dramatic, he said to me in 2018 at doing something dramatic, he said to me in 2018— said to me in 2018 at the brussels _ said to me in 2018 at the brussels nato _ said to me in 2018 at the brussels nato summit, l said to me in 2018 at the i brussels nato summit, we said to me in 2018 at the - brussels nato summit, we want to make — brussels nato summit, we want to make some history today, and by that— to make some history today, and by that he — to make some history today, and by that he meant withdrawing from — by that he meant withdrawing from the north atlantic tree to. from the north atlantic tree to i— from the north atlantic tree to. i think in any event as he is considering what he is doing or nato, — is considering what he is doing or nato, he thinks he can solve the russia _ or nato, he thinks he can solve the russia ukraine war. that sounds — the russia ukraine war. that sounds very dangerous to me becausem _ sounds very dangerous to me because... do sounds very dangerous to me because- - -— sounds very dangerous to me because... do you believe him when he _ because... do you believe him when he says _ because... do you believe him when he says that? _ because... do you believe him when he says that? he - because... do you believe him when he says that? he can't i when he says that? he can't solve it in — when he says that? he can't solve it in 24 _ when he says that? he can't solve it in 24 hours - when he says that? he can't solve it in 24 hours as - when he says that? he can't solve it in 24 hours as he i solve it in 24 hours as he says. _ solve it in 24 hours as he says. but _ solve it in 24 hours as he says, but i think his inclination is to support his body, _ inclination is to support his body, vladimir putin, so if i were — body, vladimir putin, so if i were zelenskyy and the ukrainian government i would be very worried about this.- very worried about this. there is also this — very worried about this. there is also this well— very worried about this. there is also this well window - is also this well window speculation about the current presidentjoe biden, and whether or not he is fit to run for office. do you think he is at osede think he did enough during this nato summit to

prove he has the capacity to continue to lead the largest military presence within nato? i don't think he is fit, i don't _ i don't think he is fit, i don't think trump is fit either. _ don't think trump is fit either. i— don't think trump is fit either, i think we are in for a very— either, i think we are in for a very bad— either, i think we are in for a very bad patch for the united states. — very bad patch for the united states, whoever wins, but that's _ states, whoever wins, but that's part of the problem. we will see — that's part of the problem. we will see if— that's part of the problem. we will see if biden survives this level— will see if biden survives this level of— will see if biden survives this level of concern, and i think on the — level of concern, and i think on the democratic side what they— on the democratic side what they are _ on the democratic side what they are worried about is if he has publicly demonstrated problems in september or october, there is no turning back— october, there is no turning back for— october, there is no turning back for them at that point, it is too — back for them at that point, it is too late _ back for them at that point, it is too late by the time you get that close _ is too late by the time you get that close to the election, so if they— that close to the election, so if they are going to do anything aboutjoe biden, anything about joe biden, they've _ anything aboutjoe biden, they've got to do it within the next — they've got to do it within the next very— they've got to do it within the next very few days, i think. given— next very few days, i think. given your— next very few days, i think. given your concerns you laid out there, which are pretty stark about what donald trump would mean for nato, would you be throwing your support behind joe biden or a democratic nominee come november? trio. joe biden or a democratic nominee come november? no, in 2020, faced _ nominee come november? no, in 2020, faced with _ nominee come november? no, in 2020, faced with this _ nominee come november? no, in 2020, faced with this same - 2020, faced with this same choice. _ 2020, faced with this same choice. i— 2020, faced with this same choice, i live in maryland where _ choice, i live in maryland where you can write in other candidates, i wrote where you can write in other candidates, iwrote in where you can write in other candidates, i wrote in dick cheney. _

candidates, i wrote in dick cheney, because i wanted to... who— cheney, because i wanted to... who wasn't— cheney, because i wanted to... who wasn't running by the way. yeah that's right, it is a protest vote, and i will vote for the same. it protest vote, and i will vote for the same.— for the same. it is a failing of our two _ for the same. it is a failing of our two political - for the same. it is a failing | of our two political parties. potts — of our two political parties. polls showed over 70% of the american _ polls showed over 70% of the american people did not want a rematch — american people did not want a rematch of 2020, and yet, as of today, _ rematch of 2020, and yet, as of today, that's what they're going _ today, that's what they're going to get. today, that's what they're going to get-— today, that's what they're going to get. sticking with donald trump _ going to get. sticking with donald trump and - going to get. sticking with donald trump and then i l going to get. sticking with l donald trump and then i do going to get. sticking with i donald trump and then i do want to circle back to nato, he has been meeting with the leader of hungary, viktor orban, who personally of course that not only with vladimir putin but xi jinping. what do you think that meeting between trump and orban signals to this nato alliance? i think it is a very disturbing signai~ _ i think it is a very disturbing signai~ i_ i think it is a very disturbing signal. i remember back in the i990s — signal. i remember back in the 19905 when hungary wa5 signal. i remember back in the 19905 when hungary was one of the first— 19905 when hungary was one of the first countries that wanted tojoin— the first countries that wanted tojoin nato from the first countries that wanted to join nato from the warsaw pact, — to join nato from the warsaw pact, because it did not want to be — pact, because it did not want to be part _ pact, because it did not want to be part of the russian orbit~ _ to be part of the russian orbit~ i— to be part of the russian orbit. i think in many respects 0rban— orbit. i think in many respects 0rban has— orbit. i think in many respects orban ha5 betrayed the hungarian revolution of 1956,

and his— hungarian revolution of 1956, and his affinity for putin and xi jinping i5 and his affinity for putin and xijinping is a and his affinity for putin and xi jinping is a very bad sign, but— xi jinping is a very bad sign, butl— xi jinping is a very bad sign, but i think— xi jinping is a very bad sign, but i think his meeting with trump _ but i think his meeting with trump give some indication of where — trump give some indication of where trump i5 '5 leanings are. for more analysis on the nato summit, and its fallout for the us, ukraine and other western allies, i'm joined by veteran national security journalist, barbara starr, who's now a senior fellow at the annenberg center on communication leadership and policy at the university of southern california, and elise labott, professor at american university's school of international service, and author of the substack newsletter cosmopolitics. welcome to you both. always great to have you on the programme. we will delve into what was achieved at the summit in a moment — butjust listening tojohn bolton there — what happens in november loomed large at this summit. barbara — how will the pentagon be looking at this election and what it means for the nato?

—— what it could mean for global security? -- what it could mean for global security?— -- what it could mean for global security? well, you know, there _ global security? well, you know, there is _ global security? well, you know, there is an - global security? well, you know, there is an awful i global security? well, you | know, there is an awful lot global security? well, you i know, there is an awful lot of concern about donald trump, that's no secret, concerned that's no secret, concerned that he is not committed to nato fully, that he does not wish to commit to international security alliances, that he is cosying up to vladimir putin already, if you will. he has been making a lot of statements how he will end the war in ukraine within a day, putin will pay attention to him, that he will take very strong measures against china and the chinese leadership will pay attention to him. a lot of concern that the security arrangement that has been in place across europe since essentially world war ii, once again by they were under the previous trump administration, could be under threat.- could be under threat. elise, what do you _ could be under threat. elise, what do you think _ could be under threat. elise, what do you think the - could be under threat. elise, i what do you think the potential for the winds of change here

could mean for security around the world?— the world? well, i think barbara _ the world? well, i think barbara laid _ the world? well, i think barbara laid it _ the world? well, i think barbara laid it out i the world? well, i thinkj barbara laid it out really well, _ barbara laid it out really well, and i would also add, and barbara — well, and i would also add, and barbara know5 well, and i would also add, and barbara knows this as well, it is not — barbara knows this as well, it is notjust— barbara knows this as well, it is notju5t about barbara knows this as well, it is not just about the same barbara knows this as well, it is notju5t about the same kind i5 notju5t about the same kind of things— i5 notju5t about the same kind of things that we see, but it is also — of things that we see, but it is also about other foe5 and intelligence 5haring acr055 allies— intelligence 5haring acr055 allie5 acr055 intelligence 5haring acr055 allie5 across the world. you know. — allie5 across the world. you know, there are some reports this week— know, there are some reports this week that if trump wa5 this week that if trump was elected. _ this week that if trump was elected, he would share le55 intelligence with the europeans. not necessarily more of european5. not necessarily more of an— europeans. not necessarily more of an isolationist point of view, _ of an isolationist point of view, butju5t really kind of america _ view, butju5t really kind of america as the only one and everybodyjust ha5 america as the only one and everybodyjust has to listen, and — everybodyjust has to listen, and just— everybodyjust has to listen, and just this whole idea of not 'u5t and just this whole idea of not just alliances, per 5e, but ju5t alliances, per 5e, but coordination, cooperation with allies — coordination, cooperation with allies i— coordination, cooperation with allie5. i think it is not really— allie5. i think it is not really clear that donald trump understands whether it is the importance of alliances, the

importance of alliances, the importance of alliances, the importance of collaboration and coordination with allie5, or as barbara — coordination with allie5, or as barbara wa5 mentioning, the actual— barbara wa5 mentioning, the actual use of us force. they mean — actual use of us force. they mean all— actual use of us force. they mean all of the things we talk about, you know, the liberal world — about, you know, the liberal world order and all these things. _ world order and all these things, but the role of commander—in—chief i5 things, but the role of commander—in—chief is so important, and it is really unclear— important, and it is really unclear if donald trump really understands the magnitude and the severity of the decision is a commander—in—chief make5. and a commander-in-chief makes. and i do have a commander-in-chief makes. and i do have to — a commander-in-chief makes. and i do have to say, _ a commander—in—chief make5. fific i do have to say, eli5e, being i do have to say, elise, being at that summit there, those conversations about intelligence sharing did come up intelligence sharing did come up time and time again when i was speaking to delegates there. something else that came out pretty often was about limitations, us limits on ukraine for example being able to use its weaponry to strike further into russia on military targets, of course something that kyiv says it wants to be able to do. barbara, i wonder, how do you see this evolving, because up until now, whether it has been tanks, fighterjets and so on, there has often been and so on, there has often been a no from washington, and then at a certain point that has

changed. do you see that changing when it comes to strike capability from ukraine's side deep into russia? i ukraine's side deep into russia? ~ . ukraine's side deep into russia?— russia? i think a lot of military _ russia? i think a lot of military analysts i russia? i think a lot of military analysts will i russia? i think a lot of. military analysts will tell russia? i think a lot of- military analysts will tell you it has got to change, in order for ukraine to make that significant leap forward, to regain a significant advantage in their war with russia. it can't go on like this forever. because russia has the advantage of manpower and weaponry. they can keep sending troops in. they don't particularly care if their troops get killed, and they can produce more weapons, everything from ammunition to fighterjets, than the fighter jets, than the ukrainians fighterjets, than the ukrainians can get a hold of. so the russians will maintain a significant tactical if not strategic advantage against ukraine. ukraine needs to find a way forward. i think one of the things we saw at this nato

summit was nato beginning to settle in for the long haul. more coordination with a new cell being stood up in germany. we will see how that goes. but importantly, missiles once again the first time in decades being placed in germany to protect europe, and very strong language about china's military assistance for russia. these are all much more strategic long—term issues while ukraine still is trying to get its footing back with this issue of not being able to strike deep inside russia.— inside russia. that's very interesting _ inside russia. that's very interesting point, - inside russia. that's very | interesting point, because inside russia. that's very i interesting point, because when i was looking through that declaration, one thing i noticed in coming to you was there was no actual declaration in that language from nato that ukraine should win this war, and barbara, you werejust saying western support for for the long haul. so elise, what did you read into that? labour well, it is something i have been saying for a while, i mean

it is really unclear if the alliance wants to just keep ukraine defending against europe, against russia, not losing any more territory, or does it want to decisively win. this is something general breedlove the former commander, commander of nato forces many years ago has said recently, this is going to end the way the us wants it to end, and if the us wants it to end, and if the alliance really wants to end this war and have ukraine decisively defeat russia, as barbara said, it is going to have to be able to go into russia and use those missiles, use those weapons. something struck me in your interview with the polish prime minister. he said something about two years from now the he said something about two years from now— years from now the russian economy — years from now the russian economy will _ years from now the russian economy will start - years from now the russian economy will start to i

years from now the russian | economy will start to falter, and — economy will 5tart to falter, and feel— economy will start to falter, and feel it, and i was thinking, do they really want this war— thinking, do they really want this war to go on for another two — this war to go on for another two years? so if they don't want — two years? so if they don't want to— two years? so if they don't want toju5t keep two years? so if they don't want to just keep the russians at bay, — want to just keep the russians at bay, and they want ukraine to make — at bay, and they want ukraine to make decisive gain5, they are going _ to make decisive gain5, they are going to have to let them use those _ are going to have to let them use those weapons to go deep into ru55ia. at the same time, ithink— into ru55ia. at the same time, i think president biden was saying _ i think president biden was saying the other day you really also don't want to provoke russia _ also don't want to provoke russia to the extent where the use ru55ia to the extent where the use of— russia to the extent where the use of nuclear weapons, i don't know— use of nuclear weapons, i don't know whether ru55ia would use nuclear— know whether ru55ia would use nuclear weapons but there are many — nuclear weapons but there are many greater military minds that— many greater military minds that think he might, do you want — that think he might, do you want to— that think he might, do you want to provoke ru55ia that think he might, do you want to provoke russia to the extent — want to provoke russia to the extent where you really can't walk— extent where you really can't walk back from the bring? you've _ walk back from the bring? you've got about 30 seconds left, but one thing i did notice at the nato summit, we were in vastly underrepresented in security and defence. you are —— women vastly underrepresented. you are two experts in that field. barbara, what does it mean, that

underrepresentation? i what does it mean, that underrepresentation? i think it is a si . n underrepresentation? i think it is a sign of _ underrepresentation? i think it is a sign of the _ underrepresentation? i think it is a sign of the times. - underrepresentation? i think it is a sign of the times. there i is a sign of the times. there are a lot of european countries that welcome women into the ranks quite significantly, as does the us, but look, we're talking about the situation here where it takes years if not decades to grow the ranks, to grow the senior enlisted and the senior officers into these positions. i think one of the most interesting things going on in the us military right now is we are getting rapidly passed the afghanistan — iraq generation, if you will, a 9—11 generation. so many of the young troopsjoining generation. so many of the young troops joining today, thankfully, hopefully, will never step foot in a combat zone like that, and so this is going to be a new world for the us military and european militaries to coordinate. i guess i would point out in ukraine, women are very much fighting on the front lines, in defence of the nation. absolutely command for the first time in nato, they did get body armour at the summit.

always really appreciate both of your perspectives. thank you so much for being with us on bbc news. you are watching bbc news. i will have more global news for you at the top of the hour. in the meantime because you can noise get the latest on our website, bbc .com. hello. if you like cool weather with lots of clouds and the weekend may be perfect for you, but be careful what you wish for. it may end up being a little too chilly with the rain and the wind off the north sea. and for many of us actually, the weekend is looking quite mixed at the moment. on the satellite picture we have clouds circling the uk. this cloud here is responsible

for the damp weather and you can see the outbreaks of rain there across many eastern parts of the country. but earlier on in the night we will have had some clear spells out towards the west and 7am temperatures around 11 to 13 degrees with lower values earlier on in the night. so a lot of cloud to start the day wherever you are. but soon sunny spells will be developing out towards the west and in some central areas. showers will develop too across wales, southern england, some in northern ireland. but here, along the north sea coast, layers of cloud, outbreaks of rain. there's a weather front there and it's going to feel quite chilly. look at that. 1a in aberdeen, 1a in newcastle, no higher than about 15 in hull, and out towards the west, perhaps temperatures not even making 20 celsius, even where the sun does come out. now here's sunday, we still have that low pressure circling in the north sea here with that breeze out of the north. outbreaks of rain from time to time. but i think for many of us, actually sunday is going to be a drier, brighter day. and as a result, the temperatures

will be a little bit higher. a good day, i think overall for wimbledon on sunday, and it's looking hot and sunny in germany as well for that football match. now let's have a look at the forecast then for sunday evening. if you're planning to spend it outdoors, perhaps in your garden looking mostly dry across most of the uk. here's a look at the forecast for monday now. surprise, surprise, a weather front sweeps in from the southwest. it'll bring outbreaks of rain, potentially heavy showers at times, even some thunderstorms possible. but this time i think eastern areas should hang on to the better weather. and because there's going to be a bit of a change in the wind direction. so coming in from the south, the temperatures will be typically in the low 20s. how about the outlook? well, next week, again, mixed bag in the north of the country. but further south there are hints, tentative hints that things are going to be turning a little bit warmer. that's it. bye bye.

voice—over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after this programme. this week, we're going big on the environment, but can we fight or even understand the changes we're inflicting on the planet?

well, we're in iceland, pulling co2 out of thin air. talking of thin air, we're high up in the alps monitoring melting snow. and how do you find out what lives in a rainforest? well, here's one high—flying idea. i'm being swabbed! snow. icebergs. glaciers. continental ice sheets. if its white and cold, it's part of the earth's cryosphere... ..and it shouldn't come as a surprise to learn that that is getting smaller. working out what's melting and where is important... ..and up here, nearly

3,500m above sea level, we've come to the high—altitude research station overlooking