hello! a slightly different episode of newscast today, because there were two massive news stories, two resignations, that happened about the same time. so you're going to get a podcast that's split into two — and also recorded in two different studios for boring logistical reasons. so the first half of this episode will be me and john murray and henry zeffman talking about the departure of gareth southgate as the england manager, which we did in the studio upstairs, and the second half will be me and my podcasting best buddy chris mason, who is in wales, talking about the departure of vaughan gething as the welsh first minister. all that on this episode of newscast of two halves. newscast from the bbc. well, let's discuss it now

because we're joined by a friend of the podcast, football correspondent and legendary commentatorjohn murray. hello, john. hello, adam. i always know it's a big football story when i get the call from newscast. well, i mean, we'd do medium—sized football stories if we had room! but, no, glad to see you. and i know you're about to head off to a completely different sport, aren't you? yes, lam. i'm very much getting a change of scenery after, what was it, four or five weeks in germany at the football? yeah, heading off to the open golf championship to commentate on that this week. so i'm very much looking forward to that. 0k, well, 12 more minutes of football, if that's ok. and also we're joined by a friend of the podcast, chief political correspondent and chief football fan, henry zeffman. hello, henry. hi. yeah, i don't know what it says about this story that you've called upon me, but i'm very happy to have some people to sort of share in the collective act of mourning with. do you know what? let's combine the streams, then. and so imagine, henry, you're reporting on the retirement of gareth southgate, but in the style of a political news story. go! well, i think you would say, no—one has had greater influence in recent years than gareth southgate.

he's transformed how we think about football. and, you know, if he were a politician, you would say he's transformed how westminster works and how the political arena looks. but i think also all politicians do have a shelf life. and it certainly felt with gareth southgate that things were headed that way. you know, it's often said of prime ministers that none of them get to go out on their own terms. i think gareth southgate probably has actually managed almost to go out on his own terms, even if not quite as successfully as he'd like to, and that's probably where this diverges from any political story i've covered. as an outside observer, i'd say that was pretty good. john? well, as henry said, you know, for many, it will be a collective act of mourning. but i think the strange thing is, with gareth southgate, the way that he has in the end ended up polarising opinions. i think for many, in the words of neil kinnock — i heard neil kinnock use this word last week — for many, it will be a case of rejoice, because they felt that

gareth southgate would never be the man to get england over the line to actually win a trophy. so even though he, while he's been at the helm, has taken england to heights that england supporters have not experienced for decades and decades and decades without actually getting over the line to win a trophy, you know, those supporters feel it would never happen. and i think there was an inevitability as well that we would get to this point. they haven't let grass grow under their feet. i think that... personally, i think whatever had happened when we were in berlin on sunday night, i think we would have reached this point this week. so, john, would you say history mightjudge him as a transitional figure? possibly. history mightjudge him as a transitional figure. i think history might actually be very, very kind to gareth southgate. you know, if i think back to my england—watching time, back to sir bobby robson's day, you know, people have such a fond memory of bobby robson, who took england to the semifinal at italia 90, with gazza and the tears and all of that, and chris waddle's missed penalty,

and so close then. i mean, gareth southgate's achievements as the england manager outstrip bobby robson's by a distance. and, john, just remind us what kind of england squad he inherited eight years ago. yeah, well, ithink, you know, it was still a very, very talented squad with wayne rooney at the forefront of that and, you know, a very young harry kane just coming through at the time. but, you know, there was turmoil back in 2016. england had been knocked out of the euros by iceland, which was seen as one of the most embarrassing defeats that the england national team have ever experienced, in the round of 16 at euro 2016. and then there was the very short reign of sam allardyce, who ended up being the victim of a newspaper sting, was only in charge for 67 days. and gareth southgate was drafted in from his position as the u21 coach. when roy hodgson stepped down after the euros, gareth southgate said he wasn't interested in the big job. but when he eventually got it, you know, he was very much part of the football association's set—up at st george's park and, you know, he proved to be the man who changed

the culture and he changed the thinking, and he changed the whole mood around the england squad. and, henry, as an england fan, what are some kind of quintessential southgate moments that you witnessed, either in the stadium or watching on tv or listening to 5 live? well, look, ithink john's completely right about the mood thing. i mean, i don't even remember euro 96, which is probably the last time before southgate that england were properly on the cusp of something — i mean, on the cusp of getting to a final, which southgate managed for the first time since alf ramsey. i think, you know, you've got to... if you're younger than your late 30s as an england fan, gareth southgate will be responsible for basically every great memory you have as an england fan. that is really some achievement. you know, there were moments under sven, particularly sort of euro 2004, when england looked pretty good, but they never got beyond a quarterfinal,

even with that golden generation. you know, the less said about steve mcclaren and fabio capello and roy hodgson, the better. so, gareth southgate completely transformed that. i mean, personally, the memories — i mean, i had the great fortune to be at the england—germany round of 16 match in euro 2020, which was played in 2021 because of covid, and at the denmark semifinal and at the italy final, all of them at wembley, all amazing. i mean, i think people will look back and say that italy final, which we lost, of course, on penalties, was the great missed opportunity because we were a better team than that italy team in a way that probably wasn't true of the spain team we played against the other night. and, you know, not to sound too much like a sort of rubbish, state—of—the—nation novelist, that summer of 2021, when the country — well, the world — was just emerging from covid, some of those stadiums were half full, although in practice some of them were a bit more full, and there's documentaries you can watch about that, but it did feel like this massive, sort of collective national release of pent up joy. and i think gareth southgate was responsible for that, because no other england manager

in my lifetime has got england playing that well. but, john, i mean, there was quite a tense moment after that final in 2021, which we had to pretend was 2020, when there was quite a lot of racism — like, hardcore racism — aimed at some of the players who had missed penalties. yeah, jadon sancho, marcus rashford, bukayo saka, whose penalty was saved by the italian goalkeeper donnarumma to actually win it for italy. and in the aftermath of that, you know, i remember very clearly the morning after, i think it was a zoom call actually at the time, i mean, gareth southgate having to deal with the immediate aftermath of defeat when england was so close to winning the trophy, but also everything that had poured out on social media during the course of the night. i think that was a particularly low ebb for gareth southgate. i think he very much thought about his future after that. he certainly thought about his future after the world cup in qatar and in the end made a borderline decision to carry on to the euros here.

but i think reference to that, adam, makes me... you know, some of the issues that he's had to deal with as the england manager, graham taylor used to call it the impossible job. he meant in terms of actually getting england to win something, but i think he also meant, as, you know, everything that encompasses being england manager. i've sat there as a professional broadcaster, either opposite him or in press conferences or whatever it happens to be, and listened to some of the questions that have been thrown at him about all walks of life, cultural issues, diversity, you name it, and the way that he's dealt with it, i've sat there and thought, "i'm not sure how he's come up with the answers to this." i mean, he's as much a politician and a diplomat as he has had to be you know, he's been able to tread a very, very careful... i mean, he's as much a politician and a diplomat as he has had to be england manager to deal with some of the things off the field. but in the end, ultimately, ultimately, you know, he will be judged by how his england team performed. and we can have a little listen to how he dealt with that racism episode in 2021. for some of them to be abused

is unforgivable, really. - i know a lot of that - has come from abroad — you know, people that track those lthings have been able to explainl that — but not all of it, _ and it'sjust not what we stand for. we, ithink, have been a beacon of light in bringing people - together, in people being ablej to relate to the national team, and the national team stands for everybody. | and so that togetherness has to continue. - and we've shown the power our country has when it does comel together and has that energy and positivity together. - now, john, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing — i'm saying this about myself, by the way, because you have a lot of knowledge. so i saw the play at the national theatre, dear england, written byjames graham, wherejoseph fiennes plays gareth southgate, and that taught me that, it seems to me the biggest thing he did with the squad behind the scenes was allowing them to be themselves, to open up, talk about their feelings, and the play really focuses on just the psychology around

how you take a penalty. and so in the old days, maybe they'd be feeling a bit lonely when they were at the penalty spot. gareth southgate made them feel less alone at the penalty spot, stuff like that. yeah, and i went to see that play myself. indeed, i actually featured in it, if i may blow my own trumpet. yes, but... you know, i very much enjoyed it. i thought it was brilliantly written. a fascinating piece of stage play, actually. but i did feel that it portrayed gareth southgate as a little bit of a liberal softie, which i'm not necessarily sure is the case. he does have a hard edge, even though you very rarely see this. but in terms of being all things to all men as the england football manager... and, remember, he's dealing with some very, very sensitive egos. you know, they're all multi—millionaires, they're all like ceos of their own individual companies.

and to be able to deal with that over the course of eight years, four big tournaments, in the main, keep everyone happy — there have been issues. ben white, for example, the arsenal right—back, who didn't play at the world cup in qatar, didn't play at the euros, there was certainly upset there, and he made himself unavailable for international football, which is why he wasn't in the squad for these euros. i think that will have hurt gareth southgate, because i think he prided himself in the way that he dealt with players, and for an individual like ben white to make himself unavailable, i think that will have really hurt him and, you know, possibly was part of the process that drew him to this point where, as i say, i have a feeling that whatever would have happened in berlin on sunday night, that would have been gareth southgate's102nd and final match as the manager. and then there's just the whole kind of cultural thing around gareth southgate that you didn't have to know anything about football to be aware of. so, there was the sartorial choices. he became like the face of waistcoats for a couple of years, for example.

he went from waistcoat to smart casual over the course of the eight years! henry, how did it feel different for him just as a sort of figurehead, as a sort of character in the national story compared to some of his predecessors, who, let's face it, just got a really hard time, in various different forms? well, i think he was just clearly more likeable than some of his immediate predecessors. you know, he followed after sam alla rdyce, who managed one game before going down in a national newspaper sting/scandal — choose your own word as appropriate. i think roy hodgson, very likeable to some and certainly sort of worldly in a way which southgate perhaps is as well, never really clicked, and it was all pretty acrid by the end. i mean, the thing i'd say just as a fan is that, you know, thinking to who i watched the final with on sunday and also some of the other great moments — you know, particularly the penalty shoot—out against colombia in 2018 and the euros in 2021 — i have friends who would never have really been into football or the england national team, the england men's national team,

who did feel, it seems, like they could get into it under gareth southgate. and that's not necessarily that they were attracted to southgate himself, but he seemed to sort of change the culture around the national team — perhaps that speaks to other things happening in society as well — and that was very striking to me. and, you know, ithink it probably goes hand in hand with the lionesses, the women's team's success at the euros in 2022. and it does feel, to me, at least, like more of the nation was galvanised by england's successes under gareth southgate. i guess it helps that there were just more successes under gareth southgate for people to be galvanised by. john, i can't work out if that means his successor has got an impossible task or a possible task. yeah, i mean, listen, if you look at the list of achievements, under gareth southgate, the england team either did things that they've never done before, like reach a european championship final twice, first time in a final overseas. they broke down lots of barriers.

actually, they scored a lot of goals and some of them memorable moments. even in this stuttering, spluttering performance through euro 2024, they came up with with memories that will be genuinely going down they came up with memories that will be genuinely going down in history for decades and decades for england supporters, whether it was bellingham's overhead kick against slovakia, the winning — the convincing winning — of the penalty shoot—out against switzerland, or whether it was the ollie watkins late goal to win the semifinal against the netherlands. you know, it's a tricky one, i think, for england fans to get their head around, in those terms. but you mentioned the play dear england. i always felt when i watched it then, the whole thing, it felt like it needed that final chapter, that final story. but this is one of the compelling things about sport — that if this was hollywood, yes, england would have won against spain on sunday night, but it's not. and that's why sport keeps so many of us who love sport locked into it —

because you just never know. and, you know, i'm sitting here talking to you on newscast. where i was supposed to be right now, until the final whistle on sunday night when we were in berlin, i was expecting that it could be that i would be right now in trafalgar square, when we would be witnessing a very, very different story and a very different narrative about gareth southgate. and henry, you'd have been just down the road in downing street, where, presumably, the victorious england squad would have just been in to see, like, superfan prime minister keir starmer. that was the plan, i believe. and i suspect he would have been sir gareth southgate in fairly short order. i wonder if he still will be, by the way, although there's an interesting question about gareth southgate�*s future, isn't there? because he was only very briefly — and fairly unsuccessfully — a club managerfor middlesbrough quite a long time ago now, and i wonder — you know, john might know — whether he'll want to try his hand at club management. if he does, especially if it's in the premier league, he instantly will become a more divisive figure, because club rivalries

in this country run very deep. yeah, i think that's the plan, adam. i think club management, i think he would like to have another crack. i think he believes he's a much better football manager now. and actually, a number of the decisions that he made during the course of this tournament, i think, showed that he has developed. and, you know, he was criticised for a number of decisions in a number of matches, but quite often, it actually came off for him at this tournament. i think he's quite worldly—wise. he said before this tournament he's been learning german. it wouldn't surprise me at all if he ended up managing one of the big clubs overseas. his third act! right, john, i'm going to let you get in the car and drive to the golf. thanks, adam. and, henry, i'm going to let you get back to commenting on things like the launch of labour's defence review. pleasure! hello, here is your second quick fire episode of newscast of the day to mark the second resignation of the day. and it's about vaughan gething, who's announced he's stepping down as first minister of wales and leader of labour in wales. and it's been a pretty long—running story, so plenty

to get our teeth into in this second helping of newscast. a few months ago, vaughan gething won the contest to lead the labour party in wales, and he became the first minister. and he came on this podcast to talk about what a big milestone that was, because he was the first black person to be elected as the first minister of a uk nation, or in fact, to even be in a position of real, real political power anywhere in western europe. but from that moment, he was dogged because he had accepted a donation to his leadership campaign from a businessman whose company had been prosecuted for environmental offences in wales. no rules were broken, but people were asking lots of questions about it and raising it all the time. fast forward a few months, he faced a vote of no confidence in the senedd, the welsh parliament, which was brought by the welsh opposition parties. he lost that vote, but the rules say he didn't have to resign, so he carried on.

then there was the whole thing where he accused a former colleague of leaking a whatsapp message from during the covid pandemic, which she strenuously denied. and then the last straw came on tuesday morning, when four of his welsh government colleagues resigned and in their letters said, "mate, you're holding us back. we cannot serve in government while you are its head." and that meant he basically just couldn't carry on. he resigned, triggering another leadership contest in wales. and here is vaughan gething announced the news on tuesday mid—morning. i have this morning taken the difficult decision to begin the process of stepping down as the leader of welsh labour and, as a result, the first minister. having been elected as the leader of my party in march this year, i had hoped that over the summer, a period of reflection, rebuilding and renewal could

take place under my leadership. i recognise now that this is not possible. it has been an extraordinary honour to do thisjob forjust a few short months. in 11 years as a minister, i have never, ever made a decision for personal gain. i have never, ever misused or abused my ministerial responsibilities. my integrity matters. i have not compromised it. i regret that the burden of proof is no longer an important commodity in the language of our politics. i do hope that can change for all of us. i will now discuss with the welsh executive a timetable for the election of a new leader of welsh labour. finally, i do want to say thank you to all those who have reached out to support me,

my team and my family in recent weeks. it really does mean a great deal. right, let's pick up all of this with chris mason. hello, chris. hello, adam, hello. i know you've been in cardiff in the afternoon. i imagine you're maybe now heading back to london because of the small matter of the king's speech on wednesday. but anyway, enough of the logistics. well, to quote your immortal words on election night, blimey! well, yeah. no, exactly — blimey! i'm back in the van with no windows again, trundling around like a kind of mad thing, and, yeah, kind of, "here we go again." when you just might... even the most dedicated newscaster might be thinking, you know, "we've had enough of folk like chris mason rambling on about politics. can't we talk about, like, anything else?" and i kind of get that because i'd be quite happy to shut up for a bit, but the thing is, stuff keeps happening. and then this morning, i mean, a proper thunderbolt moment in welsh politics, 10:00 this morning,

with those four — four, four! — resignations and basically ramming home the eternal political truth as a leader, which is that if you can't convince your own side that you can lead, you can't lead, and you've got to go. and one hour, 15 minutes later — what is that? — 75 minutes later, he was a goner. or at least saying that he was a goner. yeah, and of course, you're referring there to the four ministers from the welsh government who resigned on tuesday morning and basically were the last four straws in a saga that had actually been going on ever since — in fact, evenjust before — vaughan gething was elected. yeah, completely. so i was here in cardiff in march when vaughan gething was elected. and it was a really kind of curious experience, that, adam, because we were in cardiff university in a lecture theatre. it was quite low—key on a saturday morning. and, you know, it was the big announcement. it was vaughan gething againstjeremy miles, both of them ministers in the previous welsh government,

and there was lots of warm words as you get at these kind of things about the labour family, blah—blah—blah, but it was obvious even to a visitor from london... i'm always kind of conscious of my sort of relative english ignorance when i'm reporting on politics in wales. i'm fascinated by it, but i'm conscious of the limits of my knowledge, to be entirely candid. but it was obvious, even to me, the kind of bad blood that there was in the room. sojeremy miles, who lost, wouldn't even talk to us on camera to sort of say congratulations to the other guy, said something on social media eventually, but wouldn't say anything on camera. that donations row was already rumbling. £200,000, that is a massive amount of money — well, full stop, but in welsh politics, it's a colossal amount of money. there were questions about whether that money should have even been accepted. and then... and he never really shook off the whole donations row, vaughan gething. and then you add on to that the whole row about the alleged leaking of text messages from the pandemic time, where vaughan gething said he was going to delete some messages

from a group, the sacking of the minister who was accused of doing that leaking, which she denied, and then the welsh website that had published this thing first said that she wasn't the source. so, what a mess. then there was a vote of no confidence brought by the conservatives, which vaughan gething lost. but it was non—binding, so he could stay on. so it was one thing after another, and this all in just a handful of months. so it was a nightmare, really, for vaughan gething. he got the most extraordinaryjob, really, in welsh politics, to be welsh first minister. and yet the minute he got it, to be honest, the kind of skids were under him. and i suppose the weird thing is like, ok, this might have been him bursting to kind of uk—wide political attention, but he'd been around in welsh politics, well, for decades. he hadn'tjust come out of nowhere, so of course there was a backstory. yeah, oh, completely. so, fascinating character. here is a man where one of his parents was from zambia — he was born there — anotherfrom bridgend. he, as i say, was born in zambia,

then spent his childhood in dorset, then ended up at university in aberystwyth, had become a labour politician, was very prominent in wales during the pandemic as health minister, then went on to become economy minister, was seen as, you know, a coming political thing in welsh politics, which was justified in the context of what then happened in becoming wales�*s first minister, and then that leadership race between him and jeremy miles. and what was fascinating — and there's so many parallels with other political examples here — jeremy miles was more popular among members of the senedd, among msps. —— among mss. so the very team thatjeremy — sorry, that vaughan gething was spending his day to day political life with as first minister, more of them had backed his opponent than had backed him.

he'd done very well amongst the wider membership and the trade unions. and the other thing, adam, is that the contest was actually really close. even though vaughan gething had this sort of shedload of wonga rattling around in his bank account, courtesy of that donation, it was actually quite close. so people were then asking questions, "well, could he have even won without that money?" the flip side is if he'd not accepted that money and he had won, would anything of what came afterwards have actually happened? and if it had, would it have been as destabilising as this sort of domino effect ended up being, with one thing after another kind of piling up against his political credibility and durability? obviously, we should cover this story on its own merits because it's a big deal in wales, and i hate reducing anything that happens somewhere else in the uk to, "what does it mean at westminster?", but the fact is, throughout a lot of this, vaughan gething had the support of his party leader, the now prime minister keir starmer. he did, he did. i mean, onlyjust last week, when keir starmer was on his dash around the uk to say hello

to all of the devolved leaders, he was here in cardiff, gripping the hand and grinning with vaughan gething. and in all of those years that labour were in opposition at westminster, so much of the political conversation about labour as a government, a potential government of the uk or a government in a constituent part of the uk, pointed here to wales, to the long standing labour government here. and yet here we are, less than a fortnight into a uk labour government and the welsh labour government is imploding. so if you're keir starmer, it's kind of the last thing you need. now, of course, he is cushioned by his mountainous, colossal majority at westminster, but clearly stuff like this is not what you would want. and by the way, it's worth mentioning — we've had a fair smattering, haven't we, of instability in all of the devolved governments around the uk? that massive period without a devolved government in northern ireland, which came to an end

in february with a new first and deputy first minister. then we've had the sort of merry—go—round here in wales, starting in march and resuming again now injuly. and in between, a first minister of scotland has come and gone and a replacement arrived. so, kind of turbulence wherever you look, really. chris, thank you very much. see you soon. ta—ra! talk to you tomorrow. newscast. newscast from the bbc. hello. well, it looks like we're in for a breakfrom the heavy rain, the cooler weather. and in its place, something warmer is heading our way. in fact, it'll turn quite hot for some of us briefly towards the end of the week, maybe into the weekend as well. i want to show you the big picture. here in blue, colour—coded, is the jet stream, and you can see it sort of curving northwards, and that opens up the doors for the hot air to stream

in from the southern climes. but that's still to reach us. this is what it looks like right now. it's relatively quiet on the weather front. plenty of clear weather through the early hours, a bit of mist and fog here and there, but that's pretty much it. and early morning temperatures, about 12 to 11; degrees at about 7am. so the forecast, then, for wednesday shows a weak ridge of high pressure over the uk, but not too far away, there's a weather front. that's going to brush ireland and maybe western parts of scotland, so at times cloudier here. and also inland, we'll see clouds bubbling up, those cumulus clouds. some of them will turn into showers, so there is a chance of catching a shower on wednesday. but the vast majority of us should have a dry day. 2a in london, about 2! expected in the lowlands of scotland. really, a fine day for some of us. you'd call it a perfect summer's day. now, thursday, this weatherfront approaches western parts of the uk, so admittedly cloudier with some spits and spots of rain here. further east, it'll be sunny and turning really quite warm by thursday — 27 in london.

we're approaching the low or mid 20s across northern england too, and then by the time we get to friday, very little in the way of wind. the air�*s coming in from the south. the weather's been dominated by this high pressure here, although in the north—west, we are being brushed by a weather system, so perhaps some cloud and rain here. no heat wave on offer for north—western parts of the uk, but a brief dose of heat. let's call it a hot spell, not a heat wave, on the way for parts of england. in fact, in the south—east... well, 29 is the forecast for london right now, but i wouldn't be surprised if one or two spots reach 30 celsius. but it is going to be brief. hence it's not technically a heatwave. you can see by the time we get to saturday and sunday, the temperatures ease to the seasonal norm. bye— bye.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore. i'm stevfe lai. the headlines: its day two of the republican national convention — where the theme is "make america safe again". this is the scene live from the convention — we'll bring you the latest lines as the republicans get set for an evening of rousing speeches. six people are found dead in a luxury hotel in bangkok — in what police suspect was a poisoning. bangladesh closes all its schools and colleges indefinitely following a day of violent demonstrations against a quota system for governmentjobs.