straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. increasingly, russia's relentless assault on ukraine seems to hinge on the question of staying power. amid attritional fighting, horrendous bloodshed and diplomatic stalemate, whose will is stronger? putin's russia, with its alliance of autocracies, or zelensky�*s ukraine, backed by nato and the west? well, my guest is russian mp and putin loyalist maria butina. 2.5 years post—invasion, is time really on russia's side? maria butina in moscow, welcome to hardtalk.

thank you so much for inviting me. well, it's a pleasure... happy to see you again. ..to have you back on the programme. you may remember, we last spoke about a month after mr putin's all—out invasion of ukraine. and back then, you said to me you were confident it was all going to plan, even though you admitted you didn't know what the plan was. well, some 2.5 years on, are you now ready to acknowledge that it has not gone to plan? no. i told you last time that i don't know the plan, so maybe it was planned this way. and, you know, russia is ready for peace and negotiations. the question is whom to negotiate with? zelensky is not a legitimate leader now and the west, it seems to be, doesn't want to have

any serious negotiations. they instead want to continue the war. that's the problem. so, you know, unfortunately, we do what we can and what we should to stop nato expansion to russian borders. and it goes as planned so far. we stopped nato and we have our allies, as you noticed at the beginning, as planned. it goes as planned? it can't surely have been the plan to expend so much in terms of men and materiel to hold less territory inside ukraine today than the russian military held when we last spoke to each other at the end of march 2022? that makes no sense whatsoever. it clearly has gone very wrong? well, you know, i think we should divide here two different terms — strategic and tactical goals. so, the art of war, as you know, is to actually have a strategic

purpose of the special military operation, which, you know, as i noticed earlier, it's densification and demilitarisation of ukraine. this goes as planned. but there are also tacticals. when you are talking about the actual field, actual warfield, that might be different. and also, we have... we accept there are many players involved and it's notjust the conflict between ukraine and russia, unfortunately. but now many countries of the world — first of all nato — is involved. and so it has certain... well, i wouldn't say difficulties, but it's very sad that the countries who are not directly involved in the conflict, who shall not be — in fact, they are. and they supply ukraine with more and more guns. so these are the people whose guilt it is that the conflict is continuing. because i do believe we could have reached the negotiations....

let me stop you just for a second, cos there's various things you just said which, again, i'm puzzled by. early in that answer, you referred to the mission to demilitarise ukraine. you said it's on plan, on track. well, of course it's not. i mean, what we see today — as nato has just met in washington with a new $40 billion commitment to ukraine, the us itself has a $60 billion commitment to ukraine. we know ukraine in the summer is going to get f—16 aircraft. it's getting more long—range missiles. it's getting more air defences. if your notion was that you were going to demilitarise ukraine, you've had the precisely opposite effect? well, actually not. because when you talk about the supplying of guns to ukraine, to give them different weapons, you should remember that the key issue are — you will be surprised — the people. actually, the people who are going to fight on the battlefield.

and the problem is that now ukraine is so lack of soldiers that they have to grab people on the streets, students on the streets, to take them unvoluntarily to the army. the ukrainians, they don't want to fight. that's the problem. so you can supply as many weapons as you want, but the problem is that the war cannot be won by weapons alone. it's always about people. again, ms butina, that's a very interesting answer you've given me. and i guess what you're doing there is emphasising the scale of russia compared with ukraine. it is indeed true — russia can afford to lose many more military personnel than ukraine can because you're a much bigger country. but look at the scale of your losses. i don't know if you read it, but the economist magazine did an article the other day which looked at the most recent data released by mediazona and meduza, which are two russian online outlets who have analysed obituary records, inheritance records, and they are very sure that russia has now lost, in terms of deaths,

in terms of deaths, more than 100,000 men. we know from analysts of many different stripes that the ratio of deaths to severely wounded is roughly three or four to one. so it's safe to say half a million russian military personnel have been taken out of action during the course of this war. that's staggering. and even russia can't afford that. well, you know, i don't know where you take numbers. because, yeah, you quoted some newspapers. in fact, they have been named in russia as foreign agents because they get the money, the sponsors from abroad. so i wouldn't trust their statistics so much, because if they're working in the interest of a foreign country, they will likely change the numbers the way the country that pays for their work wants. so, you know... you're an elected politician.

i mean, you're smiling at me as i give you those numbers. you're an elected politician. surely you know that the people of russia, the mothers of russia, the wives of military personnel, they are deeply worried about what is happening to their loved ones on the front lines? in fact, i talk to many of them. in fact, i do help those families. and if you let me finish — because you interrupt me every time, like it was last time — i will tell you that. of course we mourn for each family that lost their relatives. we know, each family in russia knows, after the great patriotic war, what does it mean to sacrifice their lives for the great victory? and we have to do it. and i do personally, as a politician. but first of all, as a woman, i have to help the people who are in trouble today, as those people helped me when i was in trouble. which means that i will help every single family that asks for help.

i have not refused any request from any person from russian federation. and in fact, we are friends with many women who actually are the wives of the soldiers. and, yes, we have losses. but again, this is the mission of russia today, to stop the aggression toward our borders. and this is what we do. i know, you've made that point. as a woman, as you put it — and a politician — what do you make of the fact that your own russian justice ministry recently declared that the put�* domoi movement — that is the way home movement — which represents wives, mothers of personnel on the front lines who are deeply worried and want the right to express their concern on the streets of russia — they were proscribed as a foreign agent organisation, which means the authorities now have the right to easily arrest them and silence them. what does that tell us?

well, you are probably not familiar with the law on foreign agents. i'm the author of the law. so when somebody is called a foreign agent, the only obligatory thing they have to do — just one — is to notify that they are actually sponsored, which is proved, by certain countries abroad or people living abroad... i don't mean to interrupt. ..in the interest... and please, you do interrupt. you're saying these women we see wearing the white bonnets, who are protesting about the conditions that their men are serving under on the front lines — you're saying that they are all paid foreign agents, are you? i wish they were paid, all. but the problem is that only the organisers, they get all the money — and they steal the money, usually. and theyjust make these poor people, who actually do need help, they make them even more poor. they make them stand against the government.

while, again, let me repeat, i will help every single person — and i am helping — who asks me to help. as a parliamentarian and, number one, as a woman. and the law on foreign agent just says one thing. you have to notify in public space that your group has been sponsored by a foreign influencer. that's all. if we ask you to do that... and by the way, they can go to the court and they can appeal and they can say, "oh, we don't get any money from abroad." all right, you've made that point. ijust wonder again, for you personally as a politician — who, of course, i guess is dedicated to the idea of free and open debate — what do you make of the fact that if, as a russian citizen, you go on to the streets to protest about this war and the conduct of it by putin and the military, you're going to get arrested and you're going to get locked up — probably for ten years?

what do you make of that? i would never go on the streets to protest against... well, no, maybe you wouldn't, but maybe some other russians would. isn't that the nature of a free society? maybe not. i know how patriotic people here are. they are not going to go. because, you know, it's very interesting when you report about russia not being in russia. so, come to russia, go to russian regions, go to kirovskaya 0blast i was elected from. last time when we were talking, i was in kirovskaya 0blast on a regional week, actually working as a parliamentarian for my state. and today people are all united and they do understand the difficulties we have to face with the special military operation, that we have to defend the free world again. and you know how many people from the west are coming now to russia, just looking here for a safe place? and i have to record all these videos saying, that there is a safe haven here now in russia. come here, all people, and you will find a free religion, you will find a free society. and you actually can

express your mind here in russia that you cannot do on bbc and all these western channels. don't you ban people? don't you ban my youtube channel? come on. i had my youtube channel where i can talk about whatever i like, but they banned me. that's very sad. in those early days of the all—out invasion, when we last spoke, you assured me that russia would never attack civilians. that russia was committed to only hitting military targets. a lot has happened since then, and i'm sure you saw, just as i did, the massive bombardment of ukrainian cities — including kyiv — just a few days ago, which included a direct hit on kyiv�*s biggest children's hospital, which destroyed a ward of child cancer patients and heart patients. ijust wonder, again, what your personal reaction was to that? were you as horrified as the rest of the world? first of all, russia has,

as we last time talked, an alternative position toward this. last time we were talking, if i'm not missing the point, that it was supposed to be the place where — i'm sorry, my english is not so perfect — children are born. but in fact, it happened to be that there were ukrainian soldiers hiding and using people as a shield. that was not the place, not the hospital. and here i have questions again. i think you'll find many independent investigators, including those from the icc, who dispute what you've just said. but let's stick to what we just saw happen last week. volker turk, the un human rights commissioner, happened to be in kyiv at the time. he went straight to the strike on the children's hospital. he said amongst the victims were ukraine's sickest children. a un team visited shortly afterwards, saw children that were receiving cancer treatment on the street because they'd been forced out of the hospital.

that would represent a war crime, wouldn't it? that strike by russian missiles on that hospital? you know, it's very sad now that in the world we don't have any more objective truth. because you cannot believe me, i cannot believe you. because, simply, the west is banning all the reporting from russia. so to have a fair debate... i'm not asking you to believe me. i'm asking you to believe direct un witnesses, including volker turk, the human rights commissioner. i believe... today, i can only believe the things i see my own eyes. unfortunately, that's it. and now, when i hear your statistics from foreign agents that are paid from abroad, when i hear your quotes from the people who are working in the interest of foreign influencers, and now you're quoting me the fact that last time happened to be actually a fake. well, it forms kind of a way of distrust, which means that, of course, every single step

that we do is officially made, and we check all the questions that we have before we do any missile and we have to attack any point. and of course, we have to make sure that there are minimum civilians. you know? you say you only believe what you see with your very own eyes, which i guess sort of means that your eyes are closed when it comes to what's happening in ukraine right now. but whether your eyes are open or closed, the international community's eyes are very much open. the icc — that is the international criminal court — has issued an arrest warrant for vladimir putin. the international court ofjustice has ruled overwhelmingly that russia must immediately halt all military operations inside ukraine. of course, that decision was taken years ago, been completely ignored by moscow. russia, your country, is now an outlaw state, isn't it?

ijust have one question, if i may. why all those people don't go to donbas to see the every day missiles from ukraine hitting russian cities and civilians? why nobody is talking about it? where is the truth? where is the justice you are quoting me and talking to me about? i do have questions because this is what i see in the news here in russia, and it has never been reported in the west. why wouldn't you go to donbas to see all these destroyed hospitals and movie theatres where children go? they completely just destroy everything. i guess one reason is the donbas is occupied territory under international law, and therefore... so, that's fine? and therefore independent journalism is impossible. the only way in would be with the russian military. absolutely. that's the reality. absolutely, i'm ready if you ask me and write me a request that

you would like to go to donbas. no—one has ever been rejected to go there. if you want to report, if you're an independentjournalist, go. go. i do believe in independentjournalism. well, go there. why won't you do it? in russia, independent journalism is in many cases a one—way ticket to arrest, imprisonment, and sometimes even worse. 0h, seriously? there are lists of foreignjournalists, including western journalists, working every day here in russia and reporting from russia. and they feel just fine. you know how i know? i actually am in touch with them. and every single time they ask me for any comments, like you, i'm always accepting. ask your colleagues from the washington post. it's sad that respected journalists in moscow, like evan gershkovich — they couldn't possibly ask you a question right now because mr gershkovich happens to be locked up. well, just don't be a spy. how about that? don't break the laws. how about that? if you're a journalist. i mean, even in russia, i imagine

you still have the principle of innocent until proven guilty? mr gershkovich has been proven guilty of absolutely nothing. how can you call him a spy? he has been accused of spying. well, yeah, but you just called him a spy. and he adamantly, adamantly rejects it, as does his newspaper. i guess that says something about your attitude to journalism? did you call me when i was in prison? no. did anybody care before i actually was forced to plead guilty, that i was not the red sparrow? nobody did. and so, you know, everything that happens in our life is like a mirror. what you did with us, we do with you. that's fine. that's just the mirroring thing. and when the west was just kicking out russian journalists, that's what we did. and still we kept here a lot of media — that is still working here. and still i am open with you now. i am not obligated to grant you any comments, but i do want a dialogue. why? because i do believe in peace. i'm delighted we are having a dialogue.

let me just shift focus a little bit. me, too. let's talk about geopolitics. you sit in the duma. you're a russian mp. you obviously have to think about russia's place in the world. are you entirely comfortable with the fact that russia is increasingly, increasingly dependent on china for its trade, for its financial survival — also for key electronic materials that keep your war effort going? and you're also dependent — leave aside china — on iran and north korea for weapons supplies. is that a good place for russia to be? if i'm missing something, but last week we had here modi, prime minister of india, and we have people from china and china leaders coming here. yeah, well, mr modi was visiting because he loves buying... and from hungary. he loves buying russian oil at discounted prices. but look at the state of your economy today. you don't know what modi likes or dislikes. don't be disrespectful. that's too much. you don't read minds, as well as i don't. 0k? so he came here and what he

expressed, he expressed. and let us think that this is his mind. so don't, please, be accusing of foreign leaders. and so russia is absolutely a part of foreign trade. you know, it's called foreign trade — when you trade with someone something and somebody gives you something back. and now, in fact, with india, we can pay back and forth in national currencies. yes, not in dollars, but in national currencies, as well as with china. so what is that? maybe mutual dependence, or maybe just trade. this is... look, i studied at an american school, and i know when you have a mutual relationships — exchange in goods — it typically means trade. and people that trade, and countries that trade, they usually become partners. that's what happens with russia. and now, thanks to brics, we have more than half of world population as our allies. so, yeah, everything goes as planned.

for the west, no. it doesn't. i'm getting that message from you. let's end with a thought about the united states of america. it's a country you know well. you worked there for a while. you then got arrested there, spent some time in a us prison convicted as being a foreign agent — which you always denied. but you do know america. and i wonder whether, right now, you believe russia is investing a great deal of geopolitical hope in a donald trump victory in the presidential election in november? that might change the game for you, mightn't it? oh, boy, you have the wrong person to ask. don't forget that i was actually jailed when trump was in power. so you're not... you're talking to the wrong person of being number one trump fan. it's first. and second thing, you know, i know the things that trump says and the things that he does might be very much different. the biggest expelling of russian diplomats before the special military operation

was during trump times. and, you know, they were saying good things about russia, but they never did good things toward russia. and, look, i was accused in the very beginning that i was kind of taking some money from the kremlin to trump, and then it was proven it never happened. because it never happened. all right. well, because you've made that point. russia doesn't care. we are really short of time now. russia doesn't care who is in charge. ijust want to end with a thought about the endgame here. just a month or so ago, president putin put out his version of a peace plan. he said, "look, all you have to do is give us all of the territories "of those four ukrainian oblasts that we have annexed" — an annexation, which, of course, the vast majority of other countries simply doesn't recognise because they think it's illegal. but he said, "give us that territory, ensure that ukraine "neverjoins nato and we can stop the fighting, we can "stop the bloodshed." nobody — not only in ukraine, but in the united states, in europe,

many other countries — is ever going to regard that as an acceptable plan. so is russia ultimately prepared to offer more? you know, let me play backjust a bit. in istanbul, there were agreements at the very beginning of the special military operation, and actually their idea was that ukraine is going to have an independent status and nato will promise that it will never be in ukraine or ukraine be in nato. and now we know that the west was cheating, and they actually didn't let ukraine to sign those deals and to follow those deals. the same thing happened with minsk and minsk ii agreement when angela merkel was cheating. she was openly saying, "i was cheating on russia "and i didn't want to stop the conflict." so, you know, the way the west acts, that's what they get back. as i mentioned before, that's a mirror. and if you do bad things, don't expect that people will...

people will be friendly to you to the certain point and at some point. this is a very old russian proverb, that we are kind of slow in the beginning, but then we finish the deal. that's what happens now. all right. we are finishing the deal. maria butina, we are finishing this interview, but i thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. thanks. hello there.

it is all down to the jet stream bending away with words, allowing this warm and humid air to waft its way up from the south, but where your closest to, a funnel system will be in play, more cloud rolling into northern and western scotland, bit of rain for the western isles later where it will also turn quite breezy. come further east, the stronger less untrained the pink temperatures 230 in the possibly 3i, temperatures 230 in the possibly 31, the warmth pretty widespread, temperatures generally a little above the seasonal average. so it will feel 0k in thejuly sun.

now, as we head through friday evening we'll see more of that mist and murk out towards the west, this frontal system bringing rain in across northern ireland and western scotland, and you can see that wriggling frontal system here as we get into saturday. it is this that is eventually going to sweep the warmth and the humidity away. but depending on the progress and the timing of this weather front it may well be that the eastern half of the uk gets another opportunity for some pretty warm weather on saturday. some spells of sunshine, particularly across eastern parts of england. we mayjust see some sharp showers and thunderstorms triggering off here through the afternoon. 0ut towards the west, our frontal system bringing heavy rain. that front moving quite slowly. underneath it and behind it, it will feel cooler, so 16 degrees for belfast, 18 for plymouth. parts of eastern england could get into the mid to possibly the high 20s. however, that front will move its way through as we head into sunday, it'll sweep the warmth and the humidity away. not a bad day weather—wise on sunday, some sunny spells, just one or two showers, but those temperatures back down to between 15 and 22 degrees. and really for the start of the new week, we are back to square one, with the jet stream racing in from the atlantic, bringing a feed of cooler,

fresher air and also spinning up this area of low pressure for monday. now, there's still a bit of uncertainty about how deep this area of low pressure will be, just how potent it will be, but it does look like we will see showers or longer spells of rain spilling northwards and eastwards, potentially some quite breezy conditions as well. should be some sunny spells here and there but those temperatures again between 15 and 22 degrees in most places. now for tuesday it looks like that area of low pressure will swirl away eastwards and a drier interlude will start to develop. more in the way of sunshine, bit of patchy cloud, small chance for a shower, but no return of the very warm weather. in fact once again, temperatures between 15 and 22 degrees. now, that drier day on tuesday will come courtesy of this little ridge of high pressure, and the big question mark for next week is about how long that area of high pressure will hold on. at this stage it does look like frontal systems will try to push back in from the atlantic, but high pressure never too far away, particularly from southern parts, so we should see some decent drier gaps in between the weather

systems during next week, but there will be some rain at times and there's no sign of any return to that very warm weather. that's all from me. bye— bye.

welcome to newsday,

reporting live from singapore. i'm steve lai. the headlines: president zelensky is in the uk for a summit of european leaders. speaking exclusively to the bbc, he says continued western support is vital in the war with russia. we are counting on uk leadership with this new step, because he will push other countries. a us media report says former president barack 0bama has told allies thatjoe biden needs to "seriously consider" his candidacy. the uk home secretary condemns attacks on public transport and police vehicles as disorder breaks out in leeds. a nearly complete dinosaur skeleton becomes the most valuable fossil ever sold at auction.