a re are asking this morning. question we are asking this morning. this is because online influencers like andrew this is because online influencers like andrew tate, we are being told are radicalising boys into extreme misogyny in a way that is quite terrifying, police are warning this morning. a senior police officer has warned young men and boys can be radicalise the same way terrorists draw in followers. she was speaking at the national police chiefs' council, publishing a report into violence against women and girls that it violence against women and girls thatitis violence against women and girls that it is calling a national emergency. we are hearing from experts, we are hearing from men who work with boys, whether that's at school, clubs, and parents as well, how are you talking to boys in your life about this? and men, how are you having those conversations with friends in your life as well? men and misogyny, what's going on? call us and text us. a quick word from

sharon andjill. us and text us. a quick word from sharon and jill. we were talking about advice you might give parents who don't really know how to broach the subject. we will go to some new callers, in fact, the subject. we will go to some new callers, infact, but the subject. we will go to some new callers, in fact, but our thanks to our guests so far this morning. michael is in bedford. and we have craig in rotherham and katie in braintree, alljoining us on the nation's phone in. hello to all of you, thanks for being part of the conversation. it's a really important one this morning. craig, you have an 18—year—old daughter. tell us about your experiences in terms of how you have been talking to her about this. my terms of how you have been talking to her about this.— to her about this. my daughter is “ust about to her about this. my daughter is just about to _ to her about this. my daughter is just about to start _ to her about this. my daughter is just about to start drama - to her about this. my daughter is just about to start drama schooll to her about this. my daughter is. just about to start drama school in september and as part of a playwriting competition with the national theatre she wrote a play which was set in a dystopian future where women's safety was compromised to the point where their lives were curtailed, they were only allowed to do certain things at certain times,

they weren't allowed to socialise with men, all on the basis of keeping them safe. when she wrote the play, it's really funny, good, moving, and i was thinking, this could never happen. but the more society develops along these lines, the more you can see that this is going to become a thing. influenced by sarah everard, the yorkshire ripper and that kind of stuff. it's really worrying that of all the things she chose to write a play about, it was this, because it influences her and herfriends on a daily basis. this is not something abstract, it's not theoretical, it's something that really happens all the time. �* . ., , . the time. and that has influenced her to the point _ the time. and that has influenced her to the point that _ the time. and that has influenced her to the point that at _ the time. and that has influenced her to the point that at 18 - the time. and that has influenced her to the point that at 18 years l her to the point that at 18 years old she is writing a play about it. when you say these things happen all the time, what are we talking about? catcalling, wolf whistling. it's not just building sites, she has been threatened to have her eyes gouged out by a boy. it is absolutely lack

of respect for women and girls. it is worrying. of respect for women and girls. it is worrying-— of respect for women and girls. it is worrying. where do you think it is worrying. where do you think it is cominu is worrying. where do you think it is coming from? _ is worrying. where do you think it is coming from? i _ is worrying. where do you think it is coming from? i think— is worrying. where do you think it is coming from? i think it's - is worrying. where do you think it | is coming from? i think it's coming from a lack — is coming from? i think it's coming from a lack of _ is coming from? i think it's coming from a lack of respect _ is coming from? i think it's coming from a lack of respect within - from a lack of respect within society. your contributorjames will know where i am coming from. it's more a lack of respect for everybody. certainly social media plays a large part in that. but i think as men we really do have to set an example. we have to call out this behaviour when we see it because it is having a massively detrimental effect on young women and girls. if detrimental effect on young women and uirls. , ., detrimental effect on young women and uirls. ,, . detrimental effect on young women and uirls. . ., ., and girls. if you are among men, whether they _ and girls. if you are among men, whether they are _ and girls. if you are among men, whether they are friends - and girls. if you are among men, whether they are friends or - and girls. if you are among men, whether they are friends or other people, and you hear them make derogatory comments, if you hear them say misogynistic things, do you find there is any kind of sea change in the way other men might then intervene or is it the same as it has ever been from your personal

experience? has ever been from your personal experience?_ experience? from my personal experience. — experience? from my personal experience. i — experience? from my personal experience, i think _ experience? from my personal experience, i think it _ experience? from my personal experience, i think it is - experience? from my personal. experience, i think it is probably worse. i think there is less likelihood that people will intercede. i am getting on a bit now, i am intercede. i am getting on a bit now, iam in intercede. i am getting on a bit now, i am in my 505, intercede. i am getting on a bit now, iam in my 505, but intercede. i am getting on a bit now, i am in my 505, but among the younger generation there seems to be a complete lack of respect. back when i was young you would treat women and girls with deference. and maybe feminism has a part to play in the erosion of that. but now there is just no respect any more, there is just no respect any more, there is no courtesy, is no compassion for stop it really is quite scary. stat; stop it really is quite scary. stay there if you _ stop it really is quite scary. stay there if you could. _ stop it really is quite scary. stay there if you could. michael is in bedford, you are a vice principal at a secondary school, you are in a very good position to tell us what you think is happening. what's your experience and what kind of attitudes do you see in the boys under your care? attitudes do you see in the boys underyour care? i attitudes do you see in the boys under your care?— attitudes do you see in the boys under your care? i think we have definitely seen _ under your care? i think we have definitely seen a _ under your care? i think we have definitely seen a change - under your care? i think we have definitely seen a change in - under your care? i think we have definitely seen a change in the i definitely seen a change in the attitude in a positive way from the

younger generations. the slightly older generation, between 16 and their early 20s, they are definitely more influenced by social media. a lot of it comes down to the lack of control of social media. every caller so far has talked about social media. this year the government put out head lines about banning mobile phones in school whereas actually the guidance doesn't do that at all, it gives us no powers in school. i think the government need to take control of that and give people the power to not have mobile phones in school. a lot of parents do it for safety. sarah everard is a perfect example, a tracker on her phone, but they still need a phone to get to and from school safety. but that element of safety within schools, they don't need it in school.— need it in school. even outside school they — need it in school. even outside school they will _ need it in school. even outside school they will get _ need it in school. even outside school they will get access - need it in school. even outside school they will get access to l need it in school. even outside i school they will get access to the internet a lot of the time, one way or another. what are the kinds of

things, when you are talking to other teachers and you are putting your heads together and saying, what are the kind of things they are looking at here, what can you tell us? most people are familiar with andrew tate and what he says, but what are the kinds of messages getting into the heads of boys that are in your schools? i getting into the heads of boys that are in your schools?— are in your schools? i think the olice are in your schools? i think the police have _ are in your schools? i think the police have done _ are in your schools? i think the police have done some - are in your schools? i think the police have done some great . are in your schools? i think the i police have done some great work are in your schools? i think the - police have done some great work in schools, for us in bedfordshire anyway, around how to be safe online. they will click on anything, that's the problem. tiktok is quick, they will see 15 or 20 opinions in ten minutes and most of those opinions are not ok. and when they see one video, like andrew tate, things like that will come on their feed because of the algorithms and they will see similar things again and again. a big influence when we were younger, our parents and families influenced us. and now that has changed. parents and families have far less influence over

children and it is whoever is on social media. this boils back down to the influence of social media. there are some great things for a lot of schools and parents. the diana awards, named after princess diana, they were introduced in september, we have been part of it before. as your earlier caller said, you have to teach students how to do that, teach them how to have conversations with their friends and not have them in front of everybody. it's all about timing and the right moment and the right place. this report which has got us talking about this this morning from the national police chiefs' council and the college of policing, published today says that violence against women and girls is reaching epidemic levels. it identified several key threats facing victims including sexual violence, domestic abuse, stalking, child sexual abuse. sexual violence, domestic abuse, stalking, child sexualabuse. it sexual violence, domestic abuse, stalking, child sexual abuse. it is wide ranging and found there has

been a 37% increase in the number of violent crimes against women and girls between 2018 and 2023, huge leap. more than1 million girls between 2018 and 2023, huge leap. more than 1 million such crimes were recorded in england and wales last year alone accounting for 20% of all crimes recorded by police. some of the rise has been driven by increased reporting and more awareness of these crimes but these are such stark figures. i wonder what are the kind of conversations at school that you have about consent, about healthy relationships, the kind of stuff that might counter a lot of the things they see online? it’s that might counter a lot of the things they see online? it's all about your _ things they see online? it's all about your tutor _ things they see online? it's all about your tutor time - things they see online? it's all about your tutor time activity. things they see online? it's all i about your tutor time activity and children trusting the people who work with them on a daily basis and being able to have those conversations. we operate a three strike rule, we will re—educate the first time. if something comes up we will try to re—educate the student, a bit like bringing them out and having a four day retreat, educate.

if it happens again then there is a suspension and if it happens again after that they might not be at the school any more. in terms of what we are seeing, there is such a vast of things we are seeing honoured daily basis that we have to challenge in the students and also in parents to take responsibility as well and making sure that they are doing it with us. it's notjust us trying to do it on our own. to with us. it's notjust us trying to do it on our own.— with us. it's notjust us trying to do it on our own. to do here that, arents do it on our own. to do here that, parents basically _ do it on our own. to do here that, parents basically saying _ do it on our own. to do here that, parents basically saying schools . parents basically saying schools have to do more and schools are saying, hang on a second, we are not there for every little part of your child's life. there for every little part of your child's life-— child's life. and you are talking about a minority _ child's life. and you are talking about a minority of _ child's life. and you are talking about a minority of parents - child's life. and you are talking - about a minority of parents because the majority of parents are very good and supportive. that's really important to say.— important to say. katie is in braintree, _ important to say. katie is in braintree, good _ important to say. katie is in braintree, good morning, i important to say. katie is in - braintree, good morning, thanks for being with us. you are a domestic abuse specialist. what do you make of what you are hearing in the conversation this morning? the conversations _

conversation this morning? the conversations who are having are fantastic — conversations who are having are fantastic about it. i have been in the industry over 13 years now and i have _ the industry over 13 years now and i have noticed — the industry over 13 years now and i have noticed an increase in support services _ have noticed an increase in support services for — have noticed an increase in support services for people. it is mostly for people — services for people. it is mostly for people who recognise they have an issue _ for people who recognise they have an issue and no to access support. we have _ an issue and no to access support. we have noticed there is nothing for people _ we have noticed there is nothing for people who might recognise they have a perpetrator or something isn't right, _ a perpetrator or something isn't right, but— a perpetrator or something isn't right, but there is nothing for them — right, but there is nothing for them. some people might not want to come forward and say they are a perpetrator of domestic abuse. they might— perpetrator of domestic abuse. they might want to do something anonymously. there needs to be more support— anonymously. there needs to be more support online, anonymous online courses— support online, anonymous online courses or— support online, anonymous online courses or anonymous one to one support— courses or anonymous one to one support online. at the moment i don't _ support online. at the moment i don't know— support online. at the moment i don't know of anything like that for people _ don't know of anything like that for --eole. �* , ., don't know of anything like that for --eole. �* ,, . don't know of anything like that for --eole. �* ., ., ~ people. and you are talking specifically _ people. and you are talking specifically about _ people. and you are talking specifically about domestic| people. and you are talking - specifically about domestic abuse, people who might see they have a problem and maybe they want to do something about it but don't know where to turn.— something about it but don't know where to turn. yeah. i work mostly within the domestic _

where to turn. yeah. i work mostly within the domestic abuse - where to turn. yeah. i work mostly within the domestic abuse sector. | within the domestic abuse sector. but this— within the domestic abuse sector. but this applies to all violence against — but this applies to all violence against women and girls. it could work— against women and girls. it could work for— against women and girls. it could work for stalking perhaps and other issues _ work for stalking perhaps and other issues as— work for stalking perhaps and other issues as well. i think it's something that is needed and isn't available _ something that is needed and isn't available at the moment. the figure i mentioned — available at the moment. the figure i mentioned a _ available at the moment. the figure i mentioned a short _ available at the moment. the figure i mentioned a short time _ available at the moment. the figure i mentioned a short time ago, - available at the moment. the figure i mentioned a short time ago, a - available at the moment. the figure| i mentioned a short time ago, a 3796 i mentioned a short time ago, a 37% increase in the number of violent crimes against women and girls between 2018 and 2023 is quite an incredible jump. between 2018 and 2023 is quite an incrediblejump. what between 2018 and 2023 is quite an incredible jump. what do you see in your day to day working in that environment in terms of the number of people coming to you in need of help and support? it of people coming to you in need of help and support?— help and support? it doesn't surrise help and support? it doesn't surprise me _ help and support? it doesn't surprise me because - help and support? it doesn't surprise me because we - help and support? it doesn't surprise me because we get| help and support? it doesn't. surprise me because we get a help and support? it doesn't - surprise me because we get a hell of a lot more _ surprise me because we get a hell of a lot more people coming in. we get more _ a lot more people coming in. we get more of— a lot more people coming in. we get more of the — a lot more people coming in. we get more of the older generation coming in now _ more of the older generation coming in now that— more of the older generation coming in now. that used to be something we didn't— in now. that used to be something we didn't hear— in now. that used to be something we didn't hear of. things used to be different— didn't hear of. things used to be different when they were growing up. even when _ different when they were growing up. even when i was at school and i am 34 now. _ even when i was at school and i am 34 now. but— even when i was at school and i am 34 now, but when we were at school we didn't _ 34 now, but when we were at school we didn't speak about domestic abuse or violence _ we didn't speak about domestic abuse or violence against women and girls. we didn't— or violence against women and girls. we didn't know what it was. things

are spoken — we didn't know what it was. things are spoken of more now and that's why we _ are spoken of more now and that's why we are — are spoken of more now and that's why we are getting more numbers because _ why we are getting more numbers because people recognise they are a victim _ because people recognise they are a victim or— because people recognise they are a victim or that violent crime like domestic— victim or that violent crime like domestic abuse. that's possibly why. i don't _ domestic abuse. that's possibly why. ldon't think— domestic abuse. that's possibly why. i don't think there is an increase, idon't think there is an increase, i think— i don't think there is an increase, i think it's — idon't think there is an increase, i think it's an— i don't think there is an increase, i think it's an increase of knowledge around it. i think it's an increase of knowledue around it. ~ , ., ., knowledge around it. when you are deahnu knowledge around it. when you are dealing with _ knowledge around it. when you are dealing with the _ knowledge around it. when you are dealing with the victims _ knowledge around it. when you are dealing with the victims of - knowledge around it. when you are| dealing with the victims of domestic abuse and when you are getting a better understanding of what they have been through comedy horror of what they have been through i'm sure in many cases, is there a common thread that exists in the men who have carried out the crimes against those women? i have carried out the crimes against those women?— those women? i work within the housin: those women? i work within the housing industry _ those women? i work within the housing industry so _ those women? i work within the housing industry so we - those women? i work within the housing industry so we are - those women? i work within the i housing industry so we are seeing those women? i work within the - housing industry so we are seeing a lot of— housing industry so we are seeing a lot of repeat offenders. that's kind of one _ lot of repeat offenders. that's kind of one of— lot of repeat offenders. that's kind of one of the things we are seeing. we see _ of one of the things we are seeing. we see a _ of one of the things we are seeing. we see a lot of repeat victims as welt _ we see a lot of repeat victims as welt i_ we see a lot of repeat victims as well. i know it takes a victim seven times— well. i know it takes a victim seven times to _ well. i know it takes a victim seven times to be — well. i know it takes a victim seven times to be able to leave an abusive

relationship. we are definitely seeing — relationship. we are definitely seeing a — relationship. we are definitely seeing a lot more repeat victims and repeat— seeing a lot more repeat victims and repeat offenders. it�*s seeing a lot more repeat victims and repeat offenders.— repeat offenders. it's also the idea of escalation- _ repeat offenders. it's also the idea of escalation. it's _ repeat offenders. it's also the idea of escalation. it's unlikely... - repeat offenders. it's also the idea of escalation. it's unlikely... i - of escalation. it's unlikely... i suppose it happens in a lot of cases but in some cases there will be people who display misogynistic behaviour, what you might regard at a lower level, and i don't mean that to diminish it, but that might be it, and then you might have escalation, where that person is then carrying out the kind of crimes you end up dealing with. i wonder if thatis you end up dealing with. i wonder if that is ever described? people who say, when i first got together, they were lovely, and then things started to change a little bit, and then the escalation to the point where it becomes control and violence. i wonder if you have any comment on that, the way we sometimes see that happen. that, the way we sometimes see that hauen. , that, the way we sometimes see that haen.--m., , that, the way we sometimes see that happen. absolutely. most abusive relationships— happen. absolutely. most abusive relationships don't _ happen. absolutely. most abusive relationships don't start _ happen. absolutely. most abusive relationships don't start with - relationships don't start with physical— relationships don't start with physical violence. relationships don't start with

physicalviolence. it relationships don't start with physical violence. it starts with a loving _ physical violence. it starts with a loving and — physical violence. it starts with a loving and kind relationship and then— loving and kind relationship and then little things start to happen. ithink— then little things start to happen. i think a _ then little things start to happen. i think a lot of it is not helped by social— i think a lot of it is not helped by social media. social media is great for some _ social media. social media is great for some things but for this kind of thing. _ for some things but for this kind of thing. and — for some things but for this kind of thing, and misogynistic behaviour and stuff, — thing, and misogynistic behaviour and stuff, that is learnt a lot from social— and stuff, that is learnt a lot from social media. that really doesn't help _ social media. that really doesn't help it — social media. that really doesn't help. it isn't helped either by the groups— help. it isn't helped either by the groups of— help. it isn't helped either by the groups of people, groups of lads who talk to— groups of people, groups of lads who talk to each— groups of people, groups of lads who talk to each other and have misogynistic views. if another male does it— misogynistic views. if another male does it and — misogynistic views. if another male does it and they speak up, they will be laughed at in their groups so we need _ be laughed at in their groups so we need to— be laughed at in their groups so we need to speak about those behaviours more _ need to speak about those behaviours more. . �* , . need to speak about those behaviours more. ., �* , ., ., , ., more. that's what we are trying to find out from _ more. that's what we are trying to find out from listeners _ more. that's what we are trying to find out from listeners and - more. that's what we are trying to | find out from listeners and viewers this morning because of what happens when they voice their opinions and say something is wrong? we have viewers on bbc news. we are continuing the nation's phone in. men and misogyny, what's going on? emma in birmingham, it is notjust a

men's issue, it is wider, with institutional victim blaming and the burden on women to protect themselves more we need institutions to make radical changes. that's an interesting point on the burden on women to protect themselves. i want to put aside, a comment from mina smallman, hertwo to put aside, a comment from mina smallman, her two daughters, to put aside, a comment from mina smallman, hertwo daughters, bibaa henry and nicole smallman were murdered in the summer of 2020 by a man they didn't know, stabbed to death in a park in london as they celebrated a birthday. horrendous story. two met police officers deployed to guard the crime scene took photographs of their dead bodies and shared them on whatsapp. mina smallman now campaigns for changes in attitude. she says in response to the report, i'm sick of it for it being a woman's responsibility to keep themselves safe. don't drink too much, don't wear provocative clothing, walk with a friend, have keys in your hand when you walk. it is ridiculous, she

saysin when you walk. it is ridiculous, she says in response. we need a programme that focuses on education, catch them before they fall. that sort of what we were getting into with james earlier, and with sharon, who do work in that area and do really good work by the sound of it. let's get some more calls, and thanks to katie, craig and michael for their contributions this morning. call and text. for their contributions this morning. calland text. katie, another katie, this one in peterborough. and alison is in south london. alison isn't your real name. and we havejoe, who teaches relationships and sex education across herefordshire. hello to all of you and thank you forjoining us. katie, where are you with this? i called in because ijust don't know where the boys get it from. because my little boy is seven. he is quite small, and we live, we talk about

our emotions, my husband is amazing. he likes hugs and cries at films, he is very passive. he is a mental health worker, nurse. i am a nurse and we talk about emotions a lot. we talk around the table. then the work is undone because my little boy goes out into the world and comes back and says things like, boys don't cry. boys need to be strong. girls are stupid, girls like pink. where are stupid, girls like pink. where are you getting this from?! . and are stupid, girls like pink. where are you getting this from?! . and he is seven? he — are you getting this from?! . and he is seven? he is _ are you getting this from?! . and he is seven? he is seven. _ are you getting this from?! . and he is seven? he is seven. all— are you getting this from?! . and he is seven? he is seven. all the - are you getting this from?! . and he is seven? he is seven. all the work. is seven? he is seven. all the work we do at home _ is seven? he is seven. all the work we do at home to _ is seven? he is seven. all the work we do at home to kind _ is seven? he is seven. all the work we do at home to kind of— is seven? he is seven. all the work. we do at home to kind of ameliorate that stereotype of men being strong and not sharing their emotions and sometimes it is horrible, i can

actually see him when he is upset holding in his emotion. being strong. i'm like, you don't need to do that. tell me how you are feeling. no, boys don't cry. 0h, do that. tell me how you are feeling. no, boys don't cry. oh, my gosh. it's horrible. it feeling. no, boys don't cry. oh, my gosh. it's horrible.— gosh. it's horrible. it must be from other boys — gosh. it's horrible. it must be from other boys at _ gosh. it's horrible. it must be from other boys at school, _ gosh. it's horrible. it must be from other boys at school, do _ gosh. it's horrible. it must be from other boys at school, do you - gosh. it's horrible. it must be from| other boys at school, do you think? presumably. it other boys at school, do you think? presumably-— other boys at school, do you think? presumably. it has to be other boys at school, presumably. it has to be other boys at school. but _ presumably. it has to be other boys at school, but is _ presumably. it has to be other boys at school, but is it _ presumably. it has to be other boys at school, but is it to _ presumably. it has to be other boys at school, but is it to the _ presumably. it has to be other boys at school, but is it to the school - at school, but is it to the school as well or is it telly? he isn't on social media so it can't be that yet. social media so it can't be that et. ., ., , , . ., , yet. katie, we appreciate it. this is what we _ yet. katie, we appreciate it. this is what we are _ yet. katie, we appreciate it. this is what we are after, _ yet. katie, we appreciate it. this is what we are after, personal i is what we are after, personal experiences from you this morning. alison is in south london. jonathan in huntingdon as well, another teacher. alison, tell us about your situation. you have been concerned about the behaviour of boys at your school, how long ago was that? i

left in 2019. that's when i was 18. i was _ left in 2019. that's when i was 18. i was born— left in 2019. that's when i was 18. i was born 2001. i was in my teenage years— i was born 2001. i was in my teenage years before — i was born 2001. i was in my teenage years before the andrew tate rise significantly. but i'm not totally... none of it has surprised me given — totally... none of it has surprised me given my experiences when i was at school— me given my experiences when i was at school because ijust don't think the way— at school because ijust don't think the way boys and girls were treated was egual~ — the way boys and girls were treated was equal. i don't think girls and was equal. idon't think girls and their— was equal. i don't think girls and their concerns were taken seriously enough _ their concerns were taken seriously enough. some casual and some quite serious _ enough. some casual and some quite serious misogyny, even assault and harassment— serious misogyny, even assault and harassment ran quite rampant. rampant? harassment ran quite rampant. ramant? ~ harassment ran quite rampant. rampant?— rampant? with almost tacit endorsement _ rampant? with almost tacit endorsement from - rampant? with almost tacit endorsement from staff. . rampant? with almost tacit endorsement from staff. it | rampant? with almost tacit. endorsement from staff. it was treated — endorsement from staff. it was treated as, boys will be boys a little _ treated as, boys will be boys a little bit — treated as, boys will be boys a little bit. �* , , treated as, boys will be boys a little bit. , , , treated as, boys will be boys a little bit. , , little bit. boys will be boys. give us some examples. _ little bit. boys will be boys. give us some examples. i _ little bit. boys will be boys. give us some examples. i had - little bit. boys will be boys. give us some examples. i had a - little bit. boys will be boys. give i us some examples. i had a couple

little bit. boys will be boys. give - us some examples. i had a couple of incidents at — us some examples. i had a couple of incidents at school _ us some examples. i had a couple of incidents at school where _ us some examples. i had a couple of incidents at school where a - us some examples. i had a couple of incidents at school where a boy - incidents at school where a boy word, _ incidents at school where a boy word, and _ incidents at school where a boy word, and he would, iwas incidents at school where a boy word, and he would, i was sitting on a bench _ word, and he would, i was sitting on a bench and — word, and he would, i was sitting on a bench and he pushed his hands up my skirt— a bench and he pushed his hands up my skirt and — a bench and he pushed his hands up my skirt and up my thighs. i complained about it and nothing happened. complained about it and nothing ha ened. ., ., ,, complained about it and nothing ha ened. ., ., , , ., happened. nothing happened after somethin: happened. nothing happened after something like _ happened. nothing happened after something like that?! _ happened. nothing happened after something like that?! the - happened. nothing happened after something like that?! the same i happened. nothing happened after. something like that?! the same boy came u- to something like that?! the same boy came up to me _ something like that?! the same boy came up to me later— something like that?! the same boy came up to me later and _ something like that?! the same boy came up to me later and slapped i something like that?! the same boy| came up to me later and slapped me in the _ came up to me later and slapped me in the face _ came up to me later and slapped me in the face in— came up to me later and slapped me in the face in the corridor. i went to the _ in the face in the corridor. i went to the staff— in the face in the corridor. i went to the staff and nothing happened. i think possibly female teachers might have treated it differently but at the same time i actually don't know if they— the same time i actually don't know if they would have because i don't think— if they would have because i don't think girls' — if they would have because i don't think girls' feelings about things were _ think girls' feelings about things were taken seriously. there was a culture _ were taken seriously. there was a culture of. — were taken seriously. there was a culture of. i— were taken seriously. there was a culture of, i don't know, it was a co—educational school and i think the structures in place just weren't designed _ the structures in place just weren't designed to take girls' needs as seriously— designed to take girls' needs as seriously as the needs of boys,

educationally and pastorally. that is very concerning _ educationally and pastorally. trust is very concerning if that's the case. you have to question where it comes from. the idea that boys will be boys, being an answer and excuse, as you describe it, for clearly very misogynistic behaviour. bringing in jonathan, and if alison can stay there if you can because you can respond again to this point. jonathan is a teacher, can you respond to what you heard from michael, the other head teacher, or vice principal, we had from an earlier. i vice principal, we had from an earlier. . , vice principal, we had from an earlier. ., , .., . earlier. i was concerned when he said the line _ earlier. i was concerned when he said the line of _ earlier. i was concerned when he said the line of three _ earlier. i was concerned when he said the line of three strikes i earlier. i was concerned when he said the line of three strikes and| said the line of three strikes and you are out of education. if you are trying to counteract a huge influence from social media or the parental or family influence where there might well be misogyny and boys might witness violence against their mothers or sisters, you can't change that with one or two discussions. it's a whole lifetime, it's a whole environment in

education. this is the problem because at the moment all our education is directly towards exam results. we don't have exams in misogyny. if it's not on the curriculum for exam results then it's not worth bothering with. we tick the box to say we have done it in p hsc or whatever it might be but that's it. schools shouldn'tjust be the exam factories they are at the moment and this is part of the problem. the school i teach in at the moment, we have a head teacher who has introduced a very strict policy of no physicality at all. no unwelcome physicality at all between any students because we don't do it as professionals with each other. that is working well, it is good. i think it is alison who is on the line at the moment, that's what she was talking about, unwelcome sexual advances and touching from boys, that has to be taken seriously. my main thing is the whole culture of education at the moment is drifting

in the wrong direction. we are very quick to exclude students. and not actually work with them. schools don't have the resources because all the resources are directed at curriculum and exam results and not educating the child. like curriculum and exam results and not educating the child.— educating the child. like you say, ou have educating the child. like you say, you have to _ educating the child. like you say, you have to give _ educating the child. like you say, you have to give the _ educating the child. like you say, you have to give the time - educating the child. like you say, you have to give the time for- educating the child. like you say, i you have to give the time for people to change, ultimately. it is going to change, ultimately. it is going to be a process, isn't it? jonathan, thank you. we only have a few minutes left of this hour of the programme so we will bring in some more callers. thank you tojonathan and alison. imogen is in manchester. mike is in birmingham. hello and thank you forjoining the nation's phone in. mike, you have been listening for a while, what do you want to say? it listening for a while, what do you want to say?— listening for a while, what do you want to sa ? , , ., ., want to say? it is very good to have this conversation _ want to say? it is very good to have this conversation as _ want to say? it is very good to have this conversation as a _ want to say? it is very good to have this conversation as a society i want to say? it is very good to have this conversation as a society but i . this conversation as a society but i would like to have an opinion directly to the last caller, saying

that it's about schools. i would disagree with that, charity begins at home. my opinion is that we are forgetting how to actually have that conversation with young men and boys. feminism is having rights for both men and women. this problem is starting at home. society itself, the biggest killer for starting at home. society itself, the biggest killerfor men under 50 is suicide in this country but nobody talks about it. nobody talks about the pressures on young men and boysin about the pressures on young men and boys in this country. all we talk about is the opposite sex, hence the reason that i feel there is a kick back with this generation. it's not because they don't respect women, of course they do, but when we come down to policies and certain things in society that are now leaning, not exactly fair, but leaning towards the opposite sex, including this

environment we see with young boys. you describe it as a kickback. it's more than that if we are talking about a 37% increase in the number of violent crimes against women and girls in five years. i of violent crimes against women and girls in five years.— girls in five years. i don't condone any violence _ girls in five years. i don't condone any violence but _ girls in five years. i don't condone any violence but we _ girls in five years. i don't condone any violence but we need - girls in five years. i don't condone any violence but we need to i any violence but we need to understand what are the triggers in society. we have become too politically correct. and being scared to actually talk about these things and actually say, ok, true feminism is treating men and females the same. now there is a slight... it's like being in relationships, 50-50. as it's like being in relationships, 50—50. as soon as it is 51—49, it's not a fair relationship. 50 50-50. as soon as it is 51-49, it's not a fair relationship.— not a fair relationship. so you think it has — not a fair relationship. so you think it has swung _ not a fair relationship. so you think it has swung too - not a fair relationship. so you think it has swung too far i not a fair relationship. so you think it has swung too far the | not a fair relationship. so you i think it has swung too far the other way. emma jen in manchester, what you think about what mike is saying? i'm not sure about that. as a woman, that's— i'm not sure about that. as a woman, that's not— i'm not sure about that. as a woman, that's not nry— i'm not sure about that. as a woman, that's not my experience. i think a

lot of— that's not my experience. i think a lot of people have said it comes down _ lot of people have said it comes down to— lot of people have said it comes down to social media. i encounter outrage _ down to social media. i encounter outrage every day that is clearly fake on — outrage every day that is clearly fake on my feed.— fake on my feed. what are you talkin: fake on my feed. what are you talking about _ fake on my feed. what are you talking about exactly? - fake on my feed. what are you talking about exactly? a i fake on my feed. what are you talking about exactly? a guy i fake on my feed. what are you i talking about exactly? a guy asking a woman on — talking about exactly? a guy asking a woman on the _ talking about exactly? a guy asking a woman on the street _ talking about exactly? a guy asking a woman on the street how- talking about exactly? a guy asking a woman on the street how much i talking about exactly? a guy asking i a woman on the street how much her boyfriend _ a woman on the street how much her boyfriend makes and she says $25,000. and her friend interjects and says, _ $25,000. and her friend interjects and says, you should be embarrassed. it is real~ _ and says, you should be embarrassed. it is real. people are re—treating it, it is real. people are re—treating it. posting — it is real. people are re—treating it, posting it, replying say that women — it, posting it, replying say that women are so selfish and stupid. this is— women are so selfish and stupid. this is what— women are so selfish and stupid. this is what the current generation of men _ this is what the current generation of men have to deal with. it is obviously— of men have to deal with. it is obviously not true. i think that's where _ obviously not true. i think that's where a — obviously not true. i think that's where a lot— obviously not true. i think that's where a lot of this is coming from, especially— where a lot of this is coming from, especially with young men, because they see _ especially with young men, because they see this content online and mail content creators they like and trust _ mail content creators they like and trust are _ mail content creators they like and trust are repeating this sort of

rhetoric — trust are repeating this sort of rhetoric. �* , , ., , rhetoric. and it is deliberately beinu rhetoric. and it is deliberately being constructed _ rhetoric. and it is deliberately being constructed to - rhetoric. and it is deliberately being constructed to get i rhetoric. and it is deliberately being constructed to get thatl rhetoric. and it is deliberately i being constructed to get that kind of response, isn't it? it is extremely cynical in the way these people go about it.— extremely cynical in the way these people go about it. many women are interactin: people go about it. many women are interacting with _ people go about it. many women are interacting with it _ people go about it. many women are interacting with it because _ people go about it. many women are interacting with it because it - people go about it. many women are interacting with it because it is i interacting with it because it is obviously— interacting with it because it is obviously fake. i look at it and think. — obviously fake. i look at it and think. i— obviously fake. i look at it and think, i don't know anyone who talks like think, idon't know anyone who talks like that— think, idon't know anyone who talks like that or— think, i don't know anyone who talks like that or thinks like that. but because — like that or thinks like that. but because they are so online and in these _ because they are so online and in these spaces that are echo chambers of other— these spaces that are echo chambers of other men also seeing this, and men _ of other men also seeing this, and men who— of other men also seeing this, and men who are teenagers who probably haven't— men who are teenagers who probably haven't even had a girlfriend yet, i 'ust haven't even had a girlfriend yet, i just think— haven't even had a girlfriend yet, i just think it's really sad. gf just think it's really sad. of course, just think it's really sad. of course. i — just think it's really sad. of course, i totally agree, just think it's really sad. oi course, i totally agree, but i think the undercurrent, the under issue here, social media has a vast influence and i totally understand that. but from my perspective i think society, for example the laws we have in this country in terms of family arrangements, in terms of child arrangement orders, in terms

of child maintenance. for example, myself, i have had to do a dna test, after 13 years of not being aware, i have to pay £500 a month of child maintenance. i didn't know about it for 13 years. we are not talking about social media, principles in society and things that are breaking down for men and women and understanding what it is to have the value of appreciating one another. there are things men can do that women can't and things women can do that men can't stop— that men can't stop mike, we appreciate — that men can't stop mike, we appreciate your _ that men can't stop mike, we appreciate your call. - that men can't stop mike, we appreciate your call. we i that men can't stop mike, we} appreciate your call. we want that men can't stop mike, we - appreciate your call. we want the full range of opinions. thank you to all of our callers. we will say goodbye to our viewers on bbc two and bbc news. thank you for being with us for the last half an hour. as to our listeners on 5 live, we will carry on talking about this a little bit more for a short while

because we have had some excellent calls as you would expect on this question on men and misogyny, what is going on. we will do a few more of those and speak to a few more listeners after ten o'clock. then we will talk about the two child benefit cap as well. all of that is still to come. a quick text on what we have been talking about this hour, the hypocrisy of men is what upsets me. says one listener. live from london. this is bbc news. kamala harris says she's proud to have secured pledges from enough democratic delegates to become the party's nominee for president. we have doors to knock on, we have people to talk to, we have phone calls to make, and we have an election to win. cheering.

3,000 violent crimes against women and girls every day in england and wales — police say it's a national emergency deadly airstrikes hit southern gaza — as the israeli prime minister travels to washington for high—level meetings. and andy murray confirms he's retiring from tennis after competing at the paris olympics. the us vice president, kamala harris, says she's proud to have secured the broad support needed to become the democratic party's nominee for president. she was speaking after surveys found she'd won pledges from enough party delegates. on monday, ms harris made herfirst pitch for the presidency. she was speaking to supporters at her campaign headquarters in delaware — who until sunday had been working to re—electjoe biden.

she promised more gun control and protection