after rishi sunak led the conservatives to their worst performance at a general election, who will succeed him as tory leader? the race officially began at 7pm tonight. plus, shoplifting has hit a record high, with 50 offences recorded by police every hour in england and wales — an increase of 30% in one year. why is shoplifting as widespread and how do we stop it? good evening, welcome to newsnight, live each weeknight, bringing you interviews and insight. your panel tonight — former conservative deputy to theresa may, damian green.

defeated at the election, he's now backing tom tugendhat. theo bertram, former number 10 adviser to prime ministers blair and brown, now director at the social market foundation think tank. and kevin foster, former tory mp who was migration minister between 2019 and 2022 and wants his old boss priti patel to stand for tory leader. two conservatives are sitting on our sofa, we had to labour members last night. it evens out over the series. and just before we get into the tory leadership, mr green, as a former policing minister, i want to show you and our audience this footage which is on websites and social media. it is distressing, so i do want to let you know that in case it's the first time you're seeing it, it happened last night at manchester airport and it shows a firearms officer stamping on a man's head and kicking him. shouting. oh, shit! move back, move back! move back, move back.

some context because we have a statement from greater manchester police. they declined an interview. they said the video shows an event which is truly shocking, the use of such force in an arrest is an unusual occurrence and one we understand creates alarm. it was filmed last night after an alleged suspect was seen on cctv at a ticket machine in a car park. officers attended to arrest him. during the response, three officers were assaulted, one female officer suffered a broken nose, the others were forced to the ground. one male officer has been removed from operational duty. gmp have referred themselves to the independent office of police conduct. how is that treatment of the man on the ground acceptable? do you think it is? i

can only say two sensible things. one is that there is no context to that, it is clearly a violent event, we see three or four second clip. i don't know what went on beforehand or afterwards. don't know what went on beforehand orafterwards. i don't know what went on beforehand or afterwards. i don't know what was going on three feet away. secondly, therefore trying to get, whoever is involved, everyone involved, deserves the fullest possible investigation. i am deserves the fullest possible investigation. iam not deserves the fullest possible investigation. i am not going to play games of instant responses with something that not because it would be irresponsible. i something that not because it would be irresponsible.— be irresponsible. i was not asking ou to be irresponsible. i was not asking you to play _ be irresponsible. i was not asking you to play again. _ be irresponsible. i was not asking you to play again, the _ be irresponsible. i was not asking you to play again, the footage - be irresponsible. i was not asking you to play again, the footage is l you to play again, the footage is distressing and that's why i read the gmp statement out, in order to give some context but thank you. now nick, mr green, mr bertram and mr foster, let's look at the conservative party leadership race. let's look at the timeframe. as you said, the contest is going to be starting, nominations closed at 7pm, we should see on our screens are graphic of the timeframe. seven pma

close, the nominations closed at 230 on monday and the candidate standing, they have five weeks when mps are not at westminster to try to persuade mps to vote for them because as it says, they are back on the 2nd of november, from the 2nd of november when parliament returns. the candidates will then be whittled down to four. you go to the conservative conference, 29th of september until the 2nd of october and the four candidates will do a beauty parade at the conservative party conference. when parliament returns on the 7th of october, mps will have another vote will whittle them down to two and those will go to the membership, the ballot will close on the 31st of october and then you will get the result on saturday 2nd of november, three days before the presidential election in

the united states. shall we look at the united states. shall we look at the candidates? we have got probably seven candidates, we can take a look at them. i have broken them into three groups. let's look at tom tugendhat, of the one nation group. interestingly, tom tugendhat will be announcing his campaign tomorrow. he has an article in the daily telegraph which has produced a headline saying i am ready to leave the european convention on human rights. , that's quite a thing for some months to see from the one nation group. they are to the left of the party. he says it's not about the echr or gender attacks, they are not up for debate but then he says this... if institutions do not serve the british people, if they make it harder to control borders then we have to exempt ourselves from them or leave theirjurisdiction. that sounds very much like the sort of thing david cameron did in 2005. he wrapped up the right of the

conservative party by saying he was prepared to leave the main centre—right grouping in the european parliament. then we move to candidates in the centre. james cleverly who has already announced he is standing, then mel stride, very close to rishi sunak. i have to say i think would be surprised if mel stride ends up as leader of the conservative party but you never know. then if we look to the right we have robertjenrick, former immigration minister, the obviously resigned over saying rishi sunak was not strong enough. there is a lot of momentum behind robertjenrick. then we have priti patel, former home secretary. she faltered in the 2022 leadership contest, she is running quite an operation now. kemi badenoch, she was business trade secretary and rishi sunak�*s cabinet, pointed remarks of hers the other day were leaked, that did not go down well with colleagues and

finally suella braverman, former home secretary, i have to say she is struggling to win support even amongst what were once hit her core supporters. the amongst what were once hit her core su orters. , , ., supporters. the rules this time are ou need, supporters. the rules this time are you need, including _ supporters. the rules this time are you need, including yourself, - supporters. the rules this time are you need, including yourself, ten l you need, including yourself, ten mps backing you. compare that to october 22 you need 100 mps to back you. with 121 october 22 you need 100 mps to back you. with121 tory mps there could be 12 candidates? possibly? mathematically not because the whips cannot _ mathematically not because the whips cannot nominate and... but mathematically not because the whips cannot nominate and. . ._ cannot nominate and... but there could be quite _ cannot nominate and... but there could be quite a _ cannot nominate and... but there could be quite a lot? _ cannot nominate and... but there could be quite a lot? there - cannot nominate and... but there i could be quite a lot? there could be but i think could be quite a lot? there could be but i think nick— could be quite a lot? there could be but i think nick is _ could be quite a lot? there could be but i think nick is right, _ could be quite a lot? there could be but i think nick is right, seven - but i think nick is right, seven appears — but i think nick is right, seven appears to be the current number. what _ appears to be the current number. what is _ appears to be the current number. what is going on at this point when they are deciding? they say will you support you, you have been involved in a lot of tory leadership contests. is it bribery, what is it? there is no bribery, no sensible leadership— there is no bribery, no sensible leadership candidate goes on promising jobs and things like that because _ promising jobs and things like that because it — promising jobs and things like that because it comes back to bite them. and there _ because it comes back to bite them. and there have been examples of

that _ and there have been examples of that. people go round and literally, particularly with a regrettably very small _ particularly with a regrettably very small parliamentary party, it's very much _ small parliamentary party, it's very much an— small parliamentary party, it's very much an individual candidate to talk to as _ much an individual candidate to talk to as many— much an individual candidate to talk to as many people as possible, particularly when you mps, because obviously— particularly when you mps, because obviously those who have been there a long _ obviously those who have been there a long time _ obviously those who have been there a long time will know each other and be predisposed. others are coming to this fresh _ be predisposed. others are coming to this fresh. high note, as an excess, i this fresh. high note, as an excess, i am _ this fresh. high note, as an excess, i am supporting tom tugendhat. i know_ i am supporting tom tugendhat. i know tom — i am supporting tom tugendhat. i know tom is going around as many people _ know tom is going around as many people as — know tom is going around as many people as possible. it is know tom is going around as many people as possible.— people as possible. it is talking and the rest — people as possible. it is talking and the rest of _ people as possible. it is talking and the rest of it? _ people as possible. it is talking and the rest of it? it _ people as possible. it is talking and the rest of it? it is - people as possible. it is talking and the rest of it? it is like - people as possible. it is talking and the rest of it? it is like any| and the rest of it? it is like any other election. _ and the rest of it? it is like any other election. talk _ and the rest of it? it is like any other election. talk to - and the rest of it? it is like any other election. talk to the - other election. talk to the electorate, _ other election. talk to the electorate, identify- other election. talk to the . electorate, identify potential voters. — electorate, identify potential voters. from _ electorate, identify potential voters, from voters. and - electorate, identify potentiali voters, from voters. and you will also _ voters, from voters. and you will also know — voters, from voters. and you will also know a — voters, from voters. and you will also know a leadership _ voters, from voters. and you will also know a leadership candidatei also know a leadership candidate will meet — also know a leadership candidate will meet hot _ also know a leadership candidate will meet not supporting - will meet not supporting yourself. they will— will meet not supporting yourself. they will be — will meet not supporting yourself. they will be focused _ will meet not supporting yourself. they will be focused on _ will meet not supporting yourself. they will be focused on talking to| they will be focused on talking to people and — they will be focused on talking to people and persuading them, - people and persuading them, trying to get a _ people and persuading them, trying to get a genuine sense _ people and persuading them, trying to get a genuine sense of— people and persuading them, trying| to get a genuine sense of what level of support— to get a genuine sense of what level of support you're _ to get a genuine sense of what level of support you're going _ to get a genuine sense of what level of support you're going to _ to get a genuine sense of what level of support you're going to get - to get a genuine sense of what level of support you're going to get as - of support you're going to get as you go— of support you're going to get as you go forward _ of support you're going to get as you go forward i— of support you're going to get as you go forward-— of support you're going to get as ou no forward. ., ., ., you go forward. i am going to remind ou and you go forward. i am going to remind you and the — you go forward. i am going to remind you and the audience _ you go forward. i am going to remind you and the audience of— you go forward. i am going to remind you and the audience of the - you and the audience of the leadership contest in the summer of 2022. some of those contenders apparently all on the same side

really did take lumps out of each other. this is the type of toxic politics - that people want to get away from. the poor british public, i they've got a month of us. i've never been- in favour of self—id. i am not going to go around criticising other candidates in this race. tell the truth, please. there was a plan to move forward on self—id. is borisjohnson an honest man? applause. there have been some really severe issues. l we have to be honest, but borrowing your way out of inflation isnt a plan, it's a fairy tale. and then i asked why on earth this was going to be necessary. and you told me, "because the boss wanted it." serving in government is not easy. it requires takingl difficult decisions. tom has never done that. i'm not the legacy candidate. who can be trusted? in your past, you've been both a liberal democrat and a remainer. i was just wondering which one you regretted most. not something that i want to cause the... highest tax rate for 70 years. how on earth can you claim that that's going to drive economic growth? when i was working in the treasury,

it was always a choice _ between difficult option a, - terrible option b, mad option c. having been to a comprehensive school... my parents were part of an immigrant family that came here. i saw kids at my school being let down, not get the proper educational standards that you might have got at your school, rishi. do you have any concerns it is going to get bitter, dirty, negative? i think all leadership campaigns for man themselves of those sorts of scenes and that literally, what we were doing was writing the labour party election leaflets. i were doing was writing the labour party election leaflets.— party election leaflets. i actually wrote a tweet — party election leaflets. i actually wrote a tweet at _ party election leaflets. i actually wrote a tweet at the _ party election leaflets. i actually wrote a tweet at the time. - party election leaflets. i actually| wrote a tweet at the time. that's wh we wrote a tweet at the time. that's why we end _ wrote a tweet at the time. that's why we end up — wrote a tweet at the time. that's why we end up with _ wrote a tweet at the time. that's why we end up with 121— wrote a tweet at the time. that's why we end up with 121 mps, - why we end up with 121 mp5, disunited. why we end up with 121 mps, disunited— why we end up with 121 mps, disunited. ., , , ., why we end up with 121 mps, disunited. ., , ., �* disunited. damian green, you don't want to leave _ disunited. damian green, you don't want to leave the _ disunited. damian green, you don't want to leave the echr. _ disunited. damian green, you don't want to leave the echr. tom - want to leave the echr. tom tugendhat has written an article which _ tugendhat has written an article which produced an article on the daily— which produced an article on the daily telegraph saying i would like to leave _ daily telegraph saying i would like to leave the echr. his team seem very happy— to leave the echr. his team seem very happy with that and it does have _ very happy with that and it does have the — very happy with that and it does have the wording, if institutions

don't _ have the wording, if institutions don't serve the british people then we have _ don't serve the british people then we have to — don't serve the british people then we have to exempt ourselves from them _ we have to exempt ourselves from them or— we have to exempt ourselves from them or leave theirjurisdiction. them or leave their jurisdiction. even _ them or leave their jurisdiction. even the — them or leave theirjurisdiction. even the headline doesn't say tom tugendhat — even the headline doesn't say tom tugendhat would _ even the headline doesn't say tom tugendhat would like _ even the headline doesn't say tom tugendhat would like to _ even the headline doesn't say tom tugendhat would like to lead... i l tugendhat would like to lead... i read tugendhat would like to lead... read it. tugendhat would like to lead... i read it. what _ tugendhat would like to lead... i read it. what he _ tugendhat would like to lead... i read it. what he says _ tugendhat would like to lead... i read it. what he says is - tugendhat would like to lead... i read it. what he says is differentj read it. what he says is different aaain. i read it. what he says is different again- ithink— read it. what he says is different again. i think it _ read it. what he says is different again. i think it is _ read it. what he says is different again. i think it is in _ read it. what he says is different again. i think it is in britain's - again. i think it is in britain's broad — again. i think it is in britain's broad interest _ again. i think it is in britain's broad interest to _ again. i think it is in britain's broad interest to stay- again. i think it is in britain's broad interest to stay in - again. i think it is in britain's broad interest to stay in thel again. i think it is in britain's - broad interest to stay in the echr but it— broad interest to stay in the echr but it has— broad interest to stay in the echr but it has to — broad interest to stay in the echr but it has to be _ broad interest to stay in the echr but it has to be reformed, - broad interest to stay in the echr but it has to be reformed, it's - but it has to be reformed, it's clearly — but it has to be reformed, it's clearly not _ but it has to be reformed, it's clearly not as _ but it has to be reformed, it's clearly not as fit _ but it has to be reformed, it's clearly not as fit for— but it has to be reformed, it's clearly not as fit for purpose i but it has to be reformed, it's. clearly not as fit for purpose as the i950s — clearly not as fit for purpose as the 1950s when _ clearly not as fit for purpose as the 19505 when it _ clearly not as fit for purpose as the 1950s when it was - clearly not as fit for purpose as the 1950s when it was set - clearly not as fit for purpose as the 1950s when it was setup. ij the 1950s when it was setup. i wrote — the 1950s when it was setup. i wrote an — the 1950s when it was setup. i wrote an article _ the 1950s when it was setup. i wrote an article along - the 1950s when it was setup. i wrote an article along with - the 1950s when it was setup. i wrote an article along with myi wrote an article along with my colleague, _ wrote an article along with my colleague, we _ wrote an article along with my colleague, we are _ wrote an article along with my colleague, we are co—chairs. wrote an article along with myj colleague, we are co—chairs of wrote an article along with my. colleague, we are co—chairs of the one nation— colleague, we are co—chairs of the one nation caucus _ colleague, we are co—chairs of the one nation caucus of _ colleague, we are co—chairs of the one nation caucus of conservative | one nation caucus of conservative mps, _ one nation caucus of conservative mps. saying — one nation caucus of conservative mps. saying that _ one nation caucus of conservative mps, saying that absolutely - one nation caucus of conservative mps, saying that absolutely nextl mps, saying that absolutely next conservative _ mps, saying that absolutely next conservative party _ mps, saying that absolutely next conservative party leader - mps, saying that absolutely next conservative party leader should | conservative party leader should lead the — conservative party leader should lead the way _ conservative party leader should lead the way in _ conservative party leader should lead the way in reforming - conservative party leader should lead the way in reforming the i conservative party leader should - lead the way in reforming the echr. white _ lead the way in reforming the echr. white is _ lead the way in reforming the echr. white is tom — lead the way in reforming the echr. white is tom tugendhat _ lead the way in reforming the echr. white is tom tugendhat saying - lead the way in reforming the echr. white is tom tugendhat saying he l lead the way in reforming the echr.| white is tom tugendhat saying he is ready to leave? he white is tom tugendhat saying he is ready to leave?— ready to leave? he is saying that as art of a ready to leave? he is saying that as part of a wider— ready to leave? he is saying that as part of a wider article. _ ready to leave? he is saying that as part of a wider article. but - ready to leave? he is saying that as part of a wider article. but i - ready to leave? he is saying that as part of a wider article. but i am - part of a wider article. but i am askin: part of a wider article. but i am asking about — part of a wider article. but i am asking about that _ part of a wider article. but i am asking about that article, - part of a wider article. but i am asking about that article, why l part of a wider article. but i am | asking about that article, why is part of a wider article. but i am - asking about that article, why is he saying that?— asking about that article, why is he sainathat? , my , , saying that? presumably because he wants to reform _ saying that? presumably because he wants to reform the _ saying that? presumably because he wants to reform the echr. - saying that? presumably because he wants to reform the echr. so - saying that? presumably because he wants to reform the echr. so he . wants to reform the echr. so he doesnt wants to reform the echr. so he doesn't really _ wants to reform the echr. so he doesn't really believe... - wants to reform the echr. so he doesn't really believe... when i wants to reform the echr. so he i doesn't really believe... when nick sa s he doesn't really believe... when nick says he wants _ doesn't really believe... when nick says he wants to _ doesn't really believe... when nick says he wants to leave _ doesn't really believe... when nick says he wants to leave the - doesn't really believe... when nick says he wants to leave the echr, l says he wants to leave the echr, that is _

says he wants to leave the echr, that is not _ says he wants to leave the echr, that is not... that— says he wants to leave the echr, that is not... that is— says he wants to leave the echr, that is not... that is not- says he wants to leave the echr, that is not... that is not what- says he wants to leave the echr, that is not... that is not what hel that is not... that is not what he says _ that is not... that is not what he says if— that is not... that is not what he sa s. , ., , ., ., , says. if institutions do not serve the british _ says. if institutions do not serve the british people, _ says. if institutions do not serve the british people, or— says. if institutions do not serve the british people, or they - says. if institutions do not serve | the british people, or they make says. if institutions do not serve i the british people, or they make it harder to control our borders, then we have to exempt ourselves from them or leave theirjurisdiction. and to reform them which... he says to leave the — and to reform them which... he says to leave the man _ and to reform them which... he says to leave the man he _ and to reform them which... he says to leave the man he is _ and to reform them which... he says to leave the man he is raising - and to reform them which... he says to leave the man he is raising the - to leave the man he is raising the prospect of leaving them. leading the debate on _ prospect of leaving them. leading the debate on reforming - prospect of leaving them. leading the debate on reforming the - prospect of leaving them. leading j the debate on reforming the echr prospect of leaving them. leading i the debate on reforming the echr is a constructive — the debate on reforming the echr is a constructive thing _ the debate on reforming the echr is a constructive thing to _ the debate on reforming the echr is a constructive thing to do _ the debate on reforming the echr is a constructive thing to do but - the debate on reforming the echr is a constructive thing to do but he - a constructive thing to do but he makes _ a constructive thing to do but he makes the — a constructive thing to do but he makes the point _ a constructive thing to do but he makes the point you _ a constructive thing to do but he makes the point you just - a constructive thing to do but he makes the point you just read i a constructive thing to do but he i makes the point you just read out that there — makes the point you just read out that there are _ makes the point you just read out that there are large _ makes the point you just read out that there are large tracts - makes the point you just read out that there are large tracts of - makes the point you just read out that there are large tracts of the i that there are large tracts of the basic— that there are large tracts of the basic conservative _ that there are large tracts of the basic conservative principles - that there are large tracts of the i basic conservative principles which every _ basic conservative principles which every leadership— basic conservative principles which every leadership candidate - basic conservative principles which every leadership candidate will - every leadership candidate will support — every leadership candidate will support. so _ every leadership candidate will support. so we _ every leadership candidate will support. so we can _ every leadership candidate will support. so we can avoid - every leadership candidate will support. so we can avoid thatl every leadership candidate will . support. so we can avoid that sort of horror— support. so we can avoid that sort of horror show— support. so we can avoid that sort of horror show we _ support. so we can avoid that sort of horror show we just _ support. so we can avoid that sort of horror show we just weren't - of horror show we just weren't reminded _ of horror show we just weren't reminded of— of horror show we just weren't reminded of their— of horror show we just weren't reminded of their where - of horror show we just weren't reminded of their where theyl of horror show we just weren't - reminded of their where they take lumps— reminded of their where they take lumps out— reminded of their where they take lumps out of— reminded of their where they take lumps out of each _ reminded of their where they take lumps out of each other. - reminded of their where they take lumps out of each other. and - reminded of their where they take | lumps out of each other. and what reminded of their where they take i lumps out of each other. and what is sensible _ lumps out of each other. and what is sensible it _ lumps out of each other. and what is sensible it seems _ lumps out of each other. and what is sensible it seems to _ lumps out of each other. and what is sensible it seems to me _ lumps out of each other. and what is sensible it seems to me and - lumps out of each other. and what is sensible it seems to me and tom'si sensible it seems to me and tom's basic— sensible it seems to me and tom's basic pitch — sensible it seems to me and tom's basic pitch is — sensible it seems to me and tom's basic pitch is that _ sensible it seems to me and tom's basic pitch is that to _ sensible it seems to me and tom's basic pitch is that to get _ sensible it seems to me and tom's| basic pitch is that to get anywhere, in terms _ basic pitch is that to get anywhere, in terms of— basic pitch is that to get anywhere, in terms of recovery, _ basic pitch is that to get anywhere, in terms of recovery, we _ basic pitch is that to get anywhere, in terms of recovery, we need - basic pitch is that to get anywhere, in terms of recovery, we need to l in terms of recovery, we need to restore _ in terms of recovery, we need to restore trust _ in terms of recovery, we need to restore trust in _ in terms of recovery, we need to restore trust in politics. - in terms of recovery, we need to restore trust in politics. to- restore trust in politics. to actually _ restore trust in politics. to actually have _ restore trust in politics. to actually have an _ restore trust in politics. toj actually have an intelligent restore trust in politics. to- actually have an intelligent debate about _ actually have an intelligent debate about the —

actually have an intelligent debate about the echr, _ actually have an intelligent debate about the echr, defence - actually have an intelligent debatel about the echr, defence spending, taxation— about the echr, defence spending, taxation levels, _ about the echr, defence spending, taxation levels, things _ about the echr, defence spending, taxation levels, things like - about the echr, defence spending, taxation levels, things like that. . taxation levels, things like that. and if— taxation levels, things like that. and if you — taxation levels, things like that. and if you do _ taxation levels, things like that. and if you do that, _ taxation levels, things like that. and if you do that, then - taxation levels, things like that. and if you do that, then you - taxation levels, things like that. and if you do that, then you canj and if you do that, then you can turn _ and if you do that, then you can turn a _ and if you do that, then you can turn a leadership _ and if you do that, then you can turn a leadership campaign - and if you do that, then you can turn a leadership campaign into| turn a leadership campaign into something _ turn a leadership campaign into something constructive. - turn a leadership campaign into something constructive. and i turn a leadership campaign into| something constructive. and too often _ something constructive. and too often in — something constructive. and too often in the _ something constructive. and too often in the past, _ something constructive. and too often in the past, it— something constructive. and too often in the past, it has- something constructive. and too often in the past, it has fallen i something constructive. and too often in the past, it has fallen to something — often in the past, it has fallen to something destructive. - often in the past, it has fallen to something destructive. iititt�*ho - often in the past, it has fallen to something destructive. who would labour like something destructive. who would labour like to _ something destructive. who would labour like to see _ something destructive. who would labour like to see leading - something destructive. who would labour like to see leading the - labour like to see leading the conservative party?— labour like to see leading the conservative party? labour would be uuite ha- conservative party? labour would be quite happy if _ conservative party? labour would be quite happy if the _ conservative party? labour would be quite happy if the conservative - quite happy if the conservative debate is about issues the conservative party members care about and no one else really cares about. ~ . about and no one else really cares about-_ echr _ about and no one else really cares about._ echr is - about and no one else really cares about._ echr is not - about. like what? echr is not something _ about. like what? echr is not something if— about. like what? echr is not something if you _ about. like what? echr is not something if you knock - about. like what? echr is not something if you knock on - about. like what? echr is not i something if you knock on doors about. like what? echr is not - something if you knock on doors in the last election people will say i really care about the echr. if the conservative leadership goes to another rerun of europe, i think that will be great for the labour party. not great for the country and probably not for the future prospect of the conservative party. i also think of the conservative party leadership debate is essentially determined by nigel farage's set of questions and the trifecta is how auntie walk you, how anti—immigration are you and how anti—net zero are you? if that is

where we have cabinets feeling they need to show a bit of leg on that, i think that will be very bad for the future of the tory party.- future of the tory party. kevin foster, future of the tory party. kevin foster. he _ future of the tory party. kevin foster, he want _ future of the tory party. kevin foster, he want priti - future of the tory party. kevin foster, he want priti patel - future of the tory party. kevin foster, he want priti patel to| future of the tory party. kevin i foster, he want priti patel to win the contest. she, and ally of hers, has said she would want nigel farage in the conservative party. other people like suella braverman have said they would welcome her. they get on well, i am going to show you this from the conservative party conference last year, have a look... is that just for the is thatjust for the cameras? is that just for the cameras? if you is that 'ust for the cameras? if you [an is that just for the cameras? if you [an the is that just for the cameras? if you plan the cameras _ is that just for the cameras? if you plan the cameras you _ is that just for the cameras? if you plan the cameras you would - is that just for the cameras? if you plan the cameras you would see i is that just for the cameras? if you i plan the cameras you would see me. it is plan the cameras you would see me. it is good _ plan the cameras you would see me. it is good to work well with people but the issue is not nigel as a person— but the issue is not nigel as a person but the issues. how do we reconnect? — person but the issues. how do we reconnect? a big section of the

electorate care about immigration and other— electorate care about immigration and other issues such as crime and things— and other issues such as crime and things will— and other issues such as crime and things will talk about later in the show _ things will talk about later in the show it— things will talk about later in the show it is— things will talk about later in the show. it is connecting with issues and policies rather than the person. heat priti patel was home secretary and introduce a points—based system which she said would reduce immigration permit she signed the rwanda plan with kigali in 2022 and you don't need me to tell you that did not work so what achievements has she had either at the home office or as international development secretary could point to? ., , ., development secretary could point to? ., ,., ., ., development secretary could point to? ., ., ., , ., to? the reason the rwanda plan didn't look _ to? the reason the rwanda plan didn't look at _ to? the reason the rwanda plan didn't look at the _ to? the reason the rwanda plan didn't look at the very _ to? the reason the rwanda plan didn't look at the very thing - to? the reason the rwanda plan i didn't look at the very thing labour didn't look at the very thing labour did with _ didn't look at the very thing labour did with scrap 8.0 come on! she sinned it did with scrap 8.0 come on! she signed it in _ did with scrap 8.0 come on! sie: signed it in 2022 and did with scrap 8.0 come on! s“ie: signed it in 2022 and not one plane took off, apart from the four volunteers.— took off, apart from the four volunteers. ., ., volunteers. there were more due to come. volunteers. there were more due to come- look — volunteers. there were more due to come- look at _ volunteers. there were more due to come. look at the _ volunteers. there were more due to come. look at the billions _ volunteers. there were more due to come. look at the billions we - volunteers. there were more due to come. look at the billions we are i come. look at the billions we are potentially — come. look at the billions we are potentially wasting and we will see the impact in the channel also pulled — the impact in the channel also pulled up _ the impact in the channel also pulled up i don't want to go over the rwanda plan, asking about her achievements punt at one of our key

manifesto _ achievements punt at one of our key manifesto commitments in 2019, 20,000 — manifesto commitments in 2019, 20,000 extra police officers, delivered. 20,000 extra police officers, delivered-— 20,000 extra police officers, delivered. . , , :: 11:11: delivered. which is putting 20,000 of us is back— delivered. which is putting 20,000 of us is back that _ delivered. which is putting 20,000 of us is back that have _ delivered. which is putting 20,000 of us is back that have been - delivered. which is putting 20,000 of us is back that have been taken l of us is back that have been taken out by conservatives from 2010, probably by damian green! don't raise your eyebrow at me! tbs, probably by damian green! don't raise your eyebrow at me! a number of forces at — raise your eyebrow at me! a number of forces at record _ raise your eyebrow at me! a number of forces at record offices _ raise your eyebrow at me! a number of forces at record offices in - of forces at record offices in numbers— of forces at record offices in numbers so went beyond the numbers in 2010 _ numbers so went beyond the numbers in 2010. wasn't simply replacing those _ in 2010. wasn't simply replacing those taken out. priti in 2010. wasn't simply replacing those taken out.— those taken out. priti patel's big itch is those taken out. priti patel's big pitch is she's — those taken out. priti patel's big pitch is she's a _ those taken out. priti patel's big pitch is she's a brexiteer- those taken out. priti patel's big pitch is she's a brexiteer but - those taken out. priti patel's bigj pitch is she's a brexiteer but has reached across the park to the one nation wing because she is very loyal to the conservative party and there she was dancing with nigel farage. she was a member of an earlier iteration of the rash, the referendum party so the history of her not being a conservative. most --eole her not being a conservative. most people would _ her not being a conservative. most people would say _ her not being a conservative. most people would say these _ her not being a conservative. most people would say these are pretty solid conservative figure, help pretty— solid conservative figure, help pretty much every role in the party from _ pretty much every role in the party from being — pretty much every role in the party from being an activist right the way up from being an activist right the way up to— from being an activist right the way up to being a senior cabinet minister— up to being a senior cabinet minister so up to being a senior cabinet ministersol up to being a senior cabinet minister so i think credentials are pretty— minister so i think credentials are pretty strong in terms of the party and as—

pretty strong in terms of the party and as you've touched on, she hasn't been _ and as you've touched on, she hasn't been involved a lot of the arguments in the _ been involved a lot of the arguments in the last— been involved a lot of the arguments in the last couple of years which a lot of— in the last couple of years which a lot of members did not think helped us. lot of members did not think helped us and _ lot of members did not think helped us and it— lot of members did not think helped us. and it will be about reaching across— us. and it will be about reaching across the — us. and it will be about reaching across the party and clinical issues like housing and the economy not 'ust like housing and the economy not just on— like housing and the economy not just on immigration and crime. do ou just on immigration and crime. you think you just on immigration and crime. drr you think you can get up the fact that she's broken the ministerial code of allegations about bullying and in fact you worked for her then, i don't know if you were aware of that? and obviously forced to resign as international developer secretary because of the private meetings with israeli officials which were unauthorised. i israeli officials which were unauthorised.— israeli officials which were unauthorised. ., ,, ., unauthorised. i worked with someone who was extremely _ unauthorised. i worked with someone who was extremely supportive - unauthorised. i worked with someone who was extremely supportive and i who was extremely supportive and determined to get results... do you think she could _ determined to get results... do you think she could get _ determined to get results... do you think she could get past _ determined to get results... do you think she could get past those? - determined to get results... do you think she could get past those? i i think she could get past those? i think she could get past those? i think she could get past those? i think she can get through and win this contest and get the support of members — this contest and get the support of members and win a general election. she could _ members and win a general election. she could be a prime minister? every erson she could be a prime minister? every person putting in _ she could be a prime minister? every person putting in this _ she could be a prime minister? every person putting in this contest should — person putting in this contest should be ready to go ahead and win a general— should be ready to go ahead and win a general election. we can deliver from _ a general election. we can deliver from opposition.— a general election. we can deliver from opposition. when you look at priti patel can _ from opposition. when you look at priti patel can you _ from opposition. when you look at priti patel can you see _ from opposition. when you look at priti patel can you see a _ from opposition. when you look at priti patel can you see a woman i from opposition. when you look at l priti patel can you see a woman who could run the country?— priti patel can you see a woman who could run the country? yes. you have talked about — could run the country? yes. you have talked about this article of tom

tugendhat and the echr, he's never run a department, that accusation from the 2022 leadership still stands, was he ever run? iie from the 2022 leadership still stands, was he ever run? he was uuite a stands, was he ever run? he was quite a senior— stands, was he ever run? he was quite a senior officer _ stands, was he ever run? he was quite a senior officer helping - stands, was he ever run? he was quite a senior officer helping run | quite a senior officer helping run helmand province in the middle about war pond and are there parallels with running the country? one thing you can say is you can get things done. he has a long record of public service both in the army and politics and he's always been willing to serve as dumb things and been a very successful security minister. and on a more purely political front, minister. and on a more purely politicalfront, he has led minister. and on a more purely political front, he has led the way in warning us about the problems of chinese espionage —— and done things. help set up a chinese research group which helped ship to the dull british policy which is usually desirable and has opened our eyes to the way we need to be quite wary of what used to be the golden era open relations between britain and china that we were in danger of being sucked into a relationship and he has shifted the dial on that. and

he has shifted the dial on that. and thinkin: he has shifted the dial on that. and thinking about the way these questions _ thinking about the way these questions are _ thinking about the way these questions are working - thinking about the way these questions are working in - thinking about the way these i questions are working in terms thinking about the way these - questions are working in terms of the contest — questions are working in terms of the contest and _ questions are working in terms of the contest and thinking - questions are working in terms of the contest and thinking back- questions are working in terms of the contest and thinking back to i the contest and thinking back to david _ the contest and thinking back to david cameron— the contest and thinking back to david cameron and _ the contest and thinking back to david cameron and how - the contest and thinking back to david cameron and how he - the contest and thinking back to| david cameron and how he came through. — david cameron and how he came through. i— david cameron and how he came through, ithink— david cameron and how he came through, i think it's— david cameron and how he came through, i think it's a _ david cameron and how he came through, i think it's a lot - david cameron and how he came through, i think it's a lot easier. through, i think it's a lot easier to talk— through, i think it's a lot easier to talk about _ through, i think it's a lot easier to talk about the _ through, i think it's a lot easier to talk about the future than i to talk about the future than defining _ to talk about the future than defining the _ to talk about the future than defining the past. _ to talk about the future than defining the past. i- to talk about the future than defining the past. i think- to talk about the future than| defining the past. i think one to talk about the future than i defining the past. i think one of the things— defining the past. i think one of the things about _ defining the past. i think one of the things about cabin - defining the past. i think one of the things about cabin at - defining the past. i think one of the things about cabin at the i defining the past. i think one of. the things about cabin at the time was everyone _ the things about cabin at the time was everyone said _ the things about cabin at the time was everyone said he _ the things about cabin at the time was everyone said he had - the things about cabin at the time was everyone said he had no i was everyone said he had no experience _ was everyone said he had no experience but— was everyone said he had no experience but he _ was everyone said he had no experience but he was- was everyone said he had no experience but he was able i was everyone said he had no. experience but he was able to was everyone said he had no i experience but he was able to talk about _ experience but he was able to talk about the — experience but he was able to talk about the future _ experience but he was able to talk about the future and _ experience but he was able to talk about the future and the _ experience but he was able to talk about the future and the others i experience but he was able to talk i about the future and the others were saddled _ about the future and the others were saddled with — about the future and the others were saddled with a — about the future and the others were saddled with a legacy. _ about the future and the others were saddled with a legacy.— saddled with a legacy. unlike the last contest. _ saddled with a legacy. unlike the last contest, the _ saddled with a legacy. unlike the last contest, the person - saddled with a legacy. unlike the last contest, the person who i saddled with a legacy. unlike the| last contest, the person who wins this will_ last contest, the person who wins this will not be prime minister on day one. — this will not be prime minister on day one, it's a very different type of contest — day one, it's a very different type of contest-— day one, it's a very different type of contest. ~ ., ., , ., of contest. with cameron, everyone saw him as — of contest. with cameron, everyone saw him as wet _ of contest. with cameron, everyone saw him as wet behind _ of contest. with cameron, everyone saw him as wet behind the - of contest. with cameron, everyone saw him as wet behind the ears, - of contest. with cameron, everyone i saw him as wet behind the ears, not taken _ saw him as wet behind the ears, not taken seriously, _ saw him as wet behind the ears, not taken seriously, davis _ saw him as wet behind the ears, not taken seriously, davis and _ saw him as wet behind the ears, not taken seriously, davis and fox - saw him as wet behind the ears, not taken seriously, davis and fox were| taken seriously, davis and fox were way out _ taken seriously, davis and fox were way out in _ taken seriously, davis and fox were way out in front _ taken seriously, davis and fox were way out in front. you _ taken seriously, davis and fox were way out in front.— way out in front. you are saying david cameron _ way out in front. you are saying david cameron was _ way out in front. you are saying david cameron was the - way out in front. you are saying david cameron was the future l way out in front. you are saying - david cameron was the future once! he was but who is the future this time? _ he was but who is the future this time? they— he was but who is the future this time? theyare _ he was but who is the future this time? they are little _ he was but who is the future this time? they are little more - time? they are little more experiehced _ time? they are little more experienced than - time? they are little more experienced than he - time? they are little more experienced than he was l time? they are little more - experienced than he was even then. do you _ experienced than he was even then. do you thihk— experienced than he was even then. do you think your— experienced than he was even then. do you think your party— experienced than he was even then. do you think your party is _ experienced than he was even then. do you think your party is ready - experienced than he was even then. do you think your party is ready to l do you think your party is ready to be led by an unapologetic remain? nobody is an unapologetic remain,

there _ nobody is an unapologetic remain, there are _ nobody is an unapologetic remain, there are those like me who campaigned for many mechanics the results. _ campaigned for many mechanics the results, but one of the points which was very— results, but one of the points which was very sensible, that the conservative party needs to be talking — conservative party needs to be talking about things that people care about and to be honest, brexit did not— care about and to be honest, brexit did not come up... find care about and to be honest, brexit did not come up...— did not come up... and i bet china has been lunch _ did not come up... and i bet china has been lunch did _ did not come up... and i bet china has been lunch did not _ did not come up... and i bet china has been lunch did not either. - did not come up... and i bet china has been lunch did not either. but| has been lunch did not either. but written's place in the world does come _ written's place in the world does come up — written's place in the world does come up and tom clearly has a very strong _ come up and tom clearly has a very strong pitch— come up and tom clearly has a very strong pitch on defence and security are afraid _ strong pitch on defence and security are afraid we live in a dangerous enough — are afraid we live in a dangerous enough world but actually, having a potential— enough world but actually, having a potential prime minister who is absolutely rock solid on defence is going _ absolutely rock solid on defence is going to _ absolutely rock solid on defence is going to be a very important part of the conservative party appeal in the run-up— the conservative party appeal in the run-up to _ the conservative party appeal in the run—up to the next election. we the conservative party appeal in the run-up to the next election.- run-up to the next election. we will ose run-up to the next election. we will pose there. — run-up to the next election. we will pose there, thank _ run-up to the next election. we will pose there, thank you _ run-up to the next election. we will pose there, thank you for _ run-up to the next election. we will pose there, thank you for the - pose there, thank you for the moment. right, let's talk about shoplifting. it's hit a record high, have a look at these cctv images. the kinds of scenes that are playing out up and down the country. there is something really mundane about it and yet sinister point i

don't know if you can see the woman who works there with the white hoodie on moving to the right and jumping over the counter because these guys turned up. and i can't tell what this guy is anything but it's absolutely brazen. data out today from the office for national statistics shows that shoplifting is at its highest level in 20 years. 415,995 offences were recorded by police in the year to march 202a. up 30% from the previous year. here's what the home secretary had to say about the rise earlier on today. street crime is soaring and these crimes that are really hitting people in town centres and local communities. so labour will bring more neighbourhood police back onto the beat. and in the king's speech, we're setting out new laws to tackle anti—social behaviour, shoplifting and knife crime. we can speak now emmeline taylor, professor of criminology at city university and host

of the retail crime uncovered podcast. and ben selvaratnam, shop owner of freshfields market in croydon. welcome to both of you. thank you for talking to our audience. how bad is it for you, ben?— is it for you, ben? when we first o-ened is it for you, ben? when we first opened up. _ is it for you, ben? when we first opened up. it— is it for you, ben? when we first opened up, it was _ is it for you, ben? when we first opened up, it was three - is it for you, ben? when we first opened up, it was three or- is it for you, ben? when we first opened up, it was three or four. opened up, it was three or four incidents a week and recently we are facing anywhere of eight to ten per day. b. facing anywhere of eight to ten per da . �* . , facing anywhere of eight to ten per da .�* it facing anywhere of eight to ten per day.- it has been _ facing anywhere of eight to ten per day.- it has been a massive| day. a day? it has been a massive increase. how _ day. a day? it has been a massive increase. how many _ day. a day? it has been a massive increase. how many hundreds - day. a day? it has been a massive increase. how many hundreds of. increase. how many hundreds of -ounds increase. how many hundreds of pounds are _ increase. how many hundreds of pounds are you _ increase. how many hundreds of pounds are you losing _ increase. how many hundreds of pounds are you losing weight? l increase. how many hundreds of| pounds are you losing weight? in pounds are you losing weight? in terms of shoplifting, hundreds of pounds but also the extra security measures we had to implement from our own pocket, whether glass and steel structure around the tail because we kept getting jumped, some of our girl crushes could spat on and handed in notice, we have extra staff where we don't necessarily as a business need it but because for the peace of mind and security of everyone, we keep them on board. there's been a massive increase in the costs of running the operation.

and if i have remembered this correctly, your cctv cameras have gone from eight up to 40?- gone from eight up to 40? that's correct, gone from eight up to 40? that's correct. yes- _ gone from eight up to 40? that's correct, yes. just _ gone from eight up to 40? that's correct, yes. just to _ gone from eight up to 40? that's correct, yes. just to help - gone from eight up to 40? that's correct, yes. just to help deter. correct, yes. just to help deter criminals pond more often than not, we are watching it as it happens after they have left or identifying theft, trying to provide evidence to theft, trying to provide evidence to the police who don't always turn up when we need them to.— when we need them to. have you considered _ when we need them to. have you considered selling _ when we need them to. have you considered selling up? _ when we need them to. have you considered selling up? yes, - when we need them to. have you considered selling up? yes, lastl considered selling up? yes, last ear was considered selling up? yes, last year was really _ considered selling up? yes, last year was really bad. _ considered selling up? yes, last year was really bad. we - considered selling up? yes, last year was really bad. we put - considered selling up? yes, last year was really bad. we put the| year was really bad. we put the store on the market. we had a couple of interested buyers, they came in and looked at the figures but i think the feedback was, they could purchase similar operations without the high fixed costs that we incur point of this is your cctv footage which you have kindly said we can share with our audience. it is share with our audience. it is brazen. that's _ share with our audience. it is brazen. that's correct, - share with our audience. it is brazen. that's correct, yes. i share with our audience. it is - brazen. that's correct, yes. does it friuhten brazen. that's correct, yes. does it frighten you? _ brazen. that's correct, yes. does it frighten you? because _ brazen. that's correct, yes. does it frighten you? because you - brazen. that's correct, yes. does it frighten you? because you have . frighten you? because you have been assaulted, i think?

frighten you? because you have been assaulted, ithink?— assaulted, i think? yes, i have been bottled from — assaulted, i think? yes, i have been bottled from stock stolen _ assaulted, i think? yes, i have been bottled from stock stolen from - bottled from stock stolen from a sprinter when you see men or youths with balaclavas coming in brazenly taking what they want, we are a small business, family run business we don't have a big head office to offset cuts and we try to retrieve stolen goods and are mostly in that situation it can go either way, they can hand it back or get violent and abusive or aggressive. what can hand it back or get violent and abusive or aggressive. what happened to ou? he abusive or aggressive. what happened to you? he didn't _ abusive or aggressive. what happened to you? he didn't want _ abusive or aggressive. what happened to you? he didn't want to _ abusive or aggressive. what happened to you? he didn't want to give - abusive or aggressive. what happened to you? he didn't want to give it - to you? he didn't want to give it back, to you? he didn't want to give it back. pushing — to you? he didn't want to give it back, pushing and _ to you? he didn't want to give it back, pushing and shoving - to you? he didn't want to give it back, pushing and shoving in - to you? he didn't want to give it| back, pushing and shoving in the end of the up bottling us.— back, pushing and shoving in the end of the up bottling us.- in - back, pushing and shoving in the end of the up bottling us.- in my| of the up bottling us. where? in my head? that — of the up bottling us. where? in my head? that could _ of the up bottling us. where? in my head? that could have _ of the up bottling us. where? in my head? that could have killed - of the up bottling us. where? in my head? that could have killed you. . of the up bottling us. where? in my| head? that could have killed you. in the heat of — head? that could have killed you. in the heat of the _ head? that could have killed you. in the heat of the moment, _ head? that could have killed you. in the heat of the moment, you - head? that could have killed you. in the heat of the moment, you don't i the heat of the moment, you don't necessarily think about that and that was one of the reasons why my wife asked me to put the business up for sale. wife asked me to put the business up forsale. it wife asked me to put the business up for sale. it has an emotional impact not only on me and the team as well, it's why we have had staff leaving and handing in notice. i don't think, coming into work should not be so disheartening, will i be

assaulted for doing myjob? we are being let down. irate assaulted for doing my 'ob? we are being let down.h assaulted for doing my 'ob? we are being let down. we will come back to that oint. being let down. we will come back to that point. milling _ being let down. we will come back to that point. milling taylor, _ being let down. we will come back to that point. milling taylor, why - being let down. we will come back to that point. milling taylor, why this i that point. milling taylor, why this massive rise?— that point. milling taylor, why this massive rise? shop theft is a really aood massive rise? shop theft is a really good barometer _ massive rise? shop theft is a really good barometer to _ massive rise? shop theft is a really good barometer to assess - massive rise? shop theft is a really good barometer to assess the - massive rise? shop theft is a really i good barometer to assess the health of a nation _ good barometer to assess the health of a nation because most of the driving — of a nation because most of the driving forces of social practice drug _ driving forces of social practice drug addiction, homelessness, mental health. _ drug addiction, homelessness, mental health. att— drug addiction, homelessness, mental health, all of these issues were exacerbated during the pandemic and of course _ exacerbated during the pandemic and of course that came against the backdrop — of course that came against the backdrop of over a decade of austerity— backdrop of over a decade of austerity measures that really stripped — austerity measures that really stripped out much needed social services — stripped out much needed social services and also the disinvestment in the _ services and also the disinvestment in the police can this really sent a message — in the police can this really sent a message to offenders that there was simply— message to offenders that there was simply no _ message to offenders that there was simply no consequences to offending. so are _ simply no consequences to offending. so are you _ simply no consequences to offending. so are you saying essentially, i don't put words in your mouth, you are the professor, to a certain extent, shoplifting has become decriminalised?— extent, shoplifting has become decriminalised? , ., ., decriminalised? yes, and looking at the fi . ures decriminalised? yes, and looking at the figures argue _ decriminalised? yes, and looking at the figures argue this _ decriminalised? yes, and looking at the figures argue this as _ decriminalised? yes, and looking at the figures argue this as well- the figures argue this as well ponder— the figures argue this as well ponder that they take from the 0ns

that has— ponder that they take from the 0ns that has come out this shows that death, _ that has come out this shows that death, police recorded incidents of theft at— death, police recorded incidents of theft at their highest level in 20 years— theft at their highest level in 20 years since comparable data was captured — years since comparable data was captured. but any retailer will tell you those — captured. but any retailer will tell you those figures are actually a drop— you those figures are actually a drop in— you those figures are actually a drop in the ocean to what they are experiencing. nearly half a million incidents— experiencing. nearly half a million incidents to police recorded crime, the british— incidents to police recorded crime, the british retail consortium over similar— the british retail consortium over similar period suggested nearly 17 million _ similar period suggested nearly 17 million incidents of theft that suggests retailers are reporting around — suggests retailers are reporting around 3% of incidents so absolutely you could _ around 3% of incidents so absolutely you could argue that in many instances, _ you could argue that in many instances, it has been decriminalised.- instances, it has been decriminalised. ., . . ,, ., decriminalised. how much it back to the fact that — decriminalised. how much it back to the fact that in — decriminalised. how much it back to the fact that in 2014 _ decriminalised. how much it back to the fact that in 2014 the _ the fact that in 2014 the government essentially downgraded, with that be a fair description, shoplifting offences, ie, if goods are worth under 200 quid, they would not be pursued. under 200 quid, they would not be ursued. , ., , ., ., pursued. yes, really unfortunate -iece pursued. yes, really unfortunate iece of pursued. yes, really unfortunate piece of legislation _ pursued. yes, really unfortunate piece of legislation was - pursued. yes, really unfortunate piece of legislation was brought| pursued. yes, really unfortunate i piece of legislation was brought in 2014 and —

piece of legislation was brought in 2014 and as you say, thefts for a value _ 2014 and as you say, thefts for a value of— 2014 and as you say, thefts for a value of less than £200 were downgraded and you could plead guilty— downgraded and you could plead guilty try— downgraded and you could plead guilty by post, would not have your day in court — guilty by post, would not have your day in court and you might be given a fine— day in court and you might be given a fine which — day in court and you might be given a fine which might actually be less than the _ a fine which might actually be less than the value of the goods you have stolen _ than the value of the goods you have stolen i _ than the value of the goods you have stolen i think it sent the wrong message — stolen i think it sent the wrong message to offenders and many sleeves — message to offenders and many sleeves i — message to offenders and many sleeves i speak to through the course — sleeves i speak to through the course of— sleeves i speak to through the course of my work will say that as [on- course of my work will say that as long as _ course of my work will say that as long as i — course of my work will say that as long as i keep it under £200, i have a license to — long as i keep it under £200, i have a license to steal. so long as i keep it under £200, i have a license to steal.— a license to steal. so from your oint of a license to steal. so from your point of view. _ a license to steal. so from your point of view, ben, _ a license to steal. so from your point of view, ben, if— a license to steal. so from your point of view, ben, if the - a license to steal. so from yourj point of view, ben, if the home secretary is watching, what do you want from her? i secretary is watching, what do you want from her?— secretary is watching, what do you want from her? i mean, a lot of the criminals we _ want from her? i mean, a lot of the criminals we face _ want from her? i mean, a lot of the criminals we face are repeat - criminals we face are repeat offenders. the logic is, why don't you have a record or database of these repeat offenders and give them these repeat offenders and give them the support and help they need, whatever it is, take them off the streets or give them any support so they can remove that proportion. also, the national retail crime plan, i'd like it to be taken more

seriously, incorporating police commissioners. i see they are tackling retail crime and it has gone up in their priority list but they need but at the police need to attend in certain events and like chris philp said previously, the policing minister, shopkeepers should perhaps and keep criminals while the police come.— while the police come. would you fancy doing _ while the police come. would you fancy doing that? _ while the police come. would you fancy doing that? if _ while the police come. would you fancy doing that? if the _ fancy doing that? if the police aren't going — fancy doing that? if the police aren't going to _ fancy doing that? if the police aren't going to turn _ fancy doing that? if the police aren't going to turn up - fancy doing that? if the police aren't going to turn up what's| fancy doing that? if the police . aren't going to turn up what's the point? aren't going to turn up what's the oint? ., ,., aren't going to turn up what's the mint? ., ,., ., ., point? you might get bottled again. exactl . point? you might get bottled again. exactly- what _ point? you might get bottled again. exactly. what you _ point? you might get bottled again. exactly. what you think _ point? you might get bottled again. exactly. what you think from - point? you might get bottled again. exactly. what you think from your i exactly. what you think from your oint of exactly. what you think from your point of view _ exactly. what you think from your point of view would _ exactly. what you think from your point of view would help - exactly. what you think from your point of view would help stamp i exactly. what you think from your| point of view would help stamp on this? �* , ., ., ., ., this? there's a whole range of factors and — this? there's a whole range of factors and i— this? there's a whole range of factors and i think _ this? there's a whole range of factors and i think investing i this? there's a whole range of factors and i think investing in j factors and i think investing in services, _ factors and i think investing in services, you mentioned prolific offenders — services, you mentioned prolific offenders who are typically drug addicted and have drug issues, and they are _ addicted and have drug issues, and they are really not getting the help they are really not getting the help they need. i recently spoke to a prolific— they need. i recently spoke to a prolific drug affected in which he was dealing and he described it as

his full—time job he told me that in order— his full—time job he told me that in order to _ his full—time job he told me that in order to fund his £500 a day drug addiction. — order to fund his £500 a day drug addiction, he would need to steal three _ addiction, he would need to steal three times that, so £1500 a day and you can _ three times that, so £1500 a day and you can quickly do the maths, that's more _ you can quickly do the maths, that's more than _ you can quickly do the maths, that's more than half £1 million which is 'ust more than half £1 million which is just one — more than half £1 million which is just one individual so imagine that ”p just one individual so imagine that up and _ just one individual so imagine that up and down the country being replicated. public health england say for— replicated. public health england say for every £1 invested in drug services, — say for every £1 invested in drug services, it— say for every £1 invested in drug services, it saves the public purse for pounds — services, it saves the public purse for pounds so there is a really compelling argument in terms of investing — compelling argument in terms of investing in drug rehabilitation and another— investing in drug rehabilitation and another appendicectomy that it's almost _ another appendicectomy that it's almost like winning the lottery, heing _ almost like winning the lottery, being given a rehabilitation that, they think it isjust being given a rehabilitation that, they think it is just for celebrities because there is not the services _ celebrities because there is not the services there. we cannot arrest our way out _ services there. we cannot arrest our way out of— services there. we cannot arrest our way out of this problem so a mix of legislative — way out of this problem so a mix of legislative changes, as we've seen in the _ legislative changes, as we've seen in the labour commitment to the policing — in the labour commitment to the policing and crime bill, fantastic, that will— policing and crime bill, fantastic, that will take some of the way. but really. _ that will take some of the way. but really. that— that will take some of the way. but really, that investment in broader social— really, that investment in broader social services is key.— social services is key. thank you both very _

social services is key. thank you both very much _ social services is key. thank you both very much for _ social services is key. thank you both very much for being - social services is key. thank you both very much for being with i social services is key. thank you i both very much for being with us. i wish you all the