accusing the previous tory government of covering up unfunded policies, the chancellor counsels road and rail projects to plug a gap of £22 billion in the public

finances. but can she really blame the tories for some of her own choices. and two children have died after a ferocious attack at a children's taylor swift dance class in southport. six other children are in southport. six other children are in critical condition. we will talk live to the bishop of liverpool. good evening. welcome to newsnight for interviews and insight. your panel this evening, former levelling up minister dehenna davison and sunday times columnist and former olympian matthew syed. it's been another huge political day, with the chancellor accusing the tories of a public finance cover—up, and we'll come on to that.

but first, how could a dance workshop for children become a scene of such tragedy? let's talk live to the bishop of liverpool, john perumbalath, and councillor sean halsall. two children have been killed and nine more injured, six of them critically after what police described as a ferocious stabbing attack at a taylor swift dance class for primary schoolchildren. a 17—year—old boy has been arrested. thank you for talking to our audience this evening. bishopjohn, first of all, how are you able to help a community through such a horrific, traumatic event? it is horrific, traumatic event? it is reall a horrific, traumatic event? it is really a shocking _ horrific, traumatic event? it 3 really a shocking thing that horrific, traumatic event? it 1 really a shocking thing that we heard. and it is a bigger tragedy than we even imagined in the first instance. we are there in the community, it is the first thing that we do. we are there with the

people who are going through this experience. our prayers and thoughts go out to them, and our clergy and lay leaders on the ground are there to support and care for families who have lost loved ones and those who are injured and those who are caring for them. a lot of clergy have been active the whole evening, and this night the churches are open. people are going in for a place of quiet and prayer and to give and receive support for one another, and that is what we are doing.— what we are doing. councillor sean, ou crew what we are doing. councillor sean, you grew up — what we are doing. councillor sean, you grew up on _ what we are doing. councillor sean, you grew up on the _ what we are doing. councillor sean, you grew up on the street _ what we are doing. councillor sean, you grew up on the street where - what we are doing. councillor sean, | you grew up on the street where this happened, you know this area well. tell our audience across the country about the families who live there and what the place is like. yes.

about the families who live there and what the place is like. yes, it is an ordinary _ and what the place is like. yes, it is an ordinary working-class - is an ordinary working—class community. it is super quiet. i remember— community. it is super quiet. i remember many happy summer holidays as a child _ remember many happy summer holidays as a child cycling around the streets. _ as a child cycling around the streets, and it is super quiet. there — streets, and it is super quiet. there was_ streets, and it is super quiet. there was nothing out of the ordinary, _ there was nothing out of the ordinary, it wasjust there was nothing out of the ordinary, it was just a quiet there was nothing out of the ordinary, it wasjust a quiet good, working _ ordinary, it wasjust a quiet good, working class area to grow up in. and what— working class area to grow up in. and what kind of things are people saying to you after what has happened today? i saying to you after what has happened today?— saying to you after what has happened today? saying to you after what has ha ened toda ? ~ , ,, , happened today? i think the shock is the bi est happened today? i think the shock is the biggest thing _ happened today? i think the shock is the biggest thing that _ happened today? i think the shock is the biggest thing that has _ happened today? i think the shock is the biggest thing that has not - the biggest thing that has not really— the biggest thing that has not really sunk in yet, how could this happen— really sunk in yet, how could this happen in— really sunk in yet, how could this happen in an area like southport, very quiet. — happen in an area like southport, very quiet, not somewhere that would have been_ very quiet, not somewhere that would have been used to this. i can't have been used to this. ican't remember— have been used to this. i can't remember any have been used to this. i can't rememberany sort of have been used to this. i can't remember any sort of tragedy like this happening and i have worked in southport _ this happening and i have worked in southport my entire life.— southport my entire life. bishop john, at southport my entire life. bishop john. at times _ southport my entire life. bishop john, at times like _ southport my entire life. bishop john, at times like this, - southport my entire life. bishop john, at times like this, some i john, at times like this, some people will lean on their faith, and others will question it. what do you say to those who are questioning it right now? say to those who are questioning it riaht now? 1, ., ., .,

right now? both our natural reactions — right now? both our natural reactions now. _ right now? both our natural reactions now. there - right now? both our natural reactions now. there is - right now? both our natural reactions now. there is no | right now? both our natural. reactions now. there is no way right now? both our natural- reactions now. there is no way to predict how the human mind will react to a tragedy like this, and all i will say is that god understands our questions and our doubts and whatever might be going through our mind. but whether we turn to god or not, the christian god or not, the church on the ground is there to support and love that god wants us to share.— is there to support and love that god wants us to share. sean, people will want to — god wants us to share. sean, people will want to help, _ god wants us to share. sean, people will want to help, they _ god wants us to share. sean, people will want to help, they will _ god wants us to share. sean, people will want to help, they will want - god wants us to share. sean, people will want to help, they will want to i will want to help, they will want to come together to help those who have been affected. what can they do? i been affected. what can they do? i think making sure that the community wraps— think making sure that the community wraps its_ think making sure that the community wraps its arms around those who are affected _ wraps its arms around those who are affected now, because today and in the coming — affected now, because today and in the coming weeks this isn't something that people are going to get over_ something that people are going to get over throughout their lifetime, but this_ get over throughout their lifetime, but this trauma doesn't leave a community. it is about making sure we look_ community. it is about making sure we look after each other in times like this— we look after each other in times

like this rather than turn to more reactionary— like this rather than turn to more reactionary reactions. gk. like this rather than turn to more reactionary reactions.— like this rather than turn to more reactionary reactions. 0k. thank you both very much _ reactionary reactions. 0k. thank you both very much for _ reactionary reactions. 0k. thank you both very much for talking _ reactionary reactions. 0k. thank you both very much for talking to - reactionary reactions. 0k. thank you both very much for talking to our - both very much for talking to our audience this evening. we appreciated, thank you. sean halsall, a councillorfrom the appreciated, thank you. sean halsall, a councillor from the area, and the bishop of liverpool. dehenna, you were telling me that the global swifty community is wanting to come together to help the families affected?— families affected? absolutely, any attack like this _ families affected? absolutely, any attack like this is _ families affected? absolutely, any attack like this is always _ families affected? absolutely, any attack like this is always a - families affected? absolutely, any attack like this is always a shock, l attack like this is always a shock, but for those who are huge taylor swift fans, seeing this and knowing children were targeted as horrendous, but the community has been coming together. there is a fundraiser online that has raised £7,000 already, that was set up by a swifty in the usa, and there is also a swifty in canada who is trying to arrange for care packages to be sent to the families with taylor swift merchandise. nothing can do anything to compensate, butjust a small bit of comfort in this dark time, and it shows the power of music and how it

can bring people together in a way that transcends anything else. we are going to talk about the big political event of today, of course. you stood down as a conservative mp, you will form a levelling up minister. matthew syed, columnist for the sunday times. obviously rachel reeves, the new chancellor, making that address before the house of commons today, and saying that essentially it was unfunded and covered up policies by the last tory government. do you buy it? i covered up policies by the last tory government. do you buy it? i don't, whatsoever- — government. do you buy it? i don't, whatsoever. you _ government. do you buy it? i don't, whatsoever. you would _ government. do you buy it? i don't, whatsoever. you would expect - government. do you buy it? i don't, whatsoever. you would expect me | government. do you buy it? i don't,| whatsoever. you would expect me to say that, but when you look at the figures being used here, £20 billion of supposed black hole in the budget, but when you look at what that is made off, roughly half of it is through discretionary pay rises, and the other half is through not enacting welfare reforms that the previous government were going to

do. and labour should have found other ways to cross that, rather than sweep into power and saying, we will do these things anyway and blame it on the other is. what will do these things anyway and blame it on the other is. what you think, matthew? _ blame it on the other is. what you think, matthew? taking _ blame it on the other is. what you think, matthew? taking a - blame it on the other is. what you think, matthew? taking a step - blame it on the other is. what you | think, matthew? taking a step back and the political _ think, matthew? taking a step back and the political tribalism _ think, matthew? taking a step back and the political tribalism out - think, matthew? taking a step back and the political tribalism out of - and the political tribalism out of it, and the political tribalism out of it. would — and the political tribalism out of it, would you call me cynical if i said _ it, would you call me cynical if i said that — it, would you call me cynical if i said that both parties have lied? it is clear— said that both parties have lied? it is clear to — said that both parties have lied? it is clear to a — said that both parties have lied? it is clear to a neutral observer that the tories — is clear to a neutral observer that the tories have lied about their in year spending, but labour have clearly — year spending, but labour have clearly also lied, lied throughout the general election campaign, throughout like the conservatives. the uk _ throughout like the conservatives. the uk is — throughout like the conservatives. the uk is in a terrible fiscal position _ the uk is in a terrible fiscal position. we are borrowing 100% of gdp. _ position. we are borrowing 100% of gdp, and _ position. we are borrowing 100% of gdp, and the obeah expected to rise to 300% _ gdp, and the obeah expected to rise to 300% by— gdp, and the obeah expected to rise to 300% by 2070, and the only way that lahour— to 300% by 2070, and the only way that labour can deal with that is either— that labour can deal with that is either by— that labour can deal with that is either by increasing taxes or borrowing more. it wasn't frank. but did the borrowing more. it wasn't frank. did they lied? borrowing more. it wasn't frank. emit did they lied? to say that parties lied, we all know people who lie including politicians. they were

accused, both main parties, of a conspiracy of silence, but did they lie? i conspiracy of silence, but did they lie? ~' , ., conspiracy of silence, but did they lie? ~ , �* lie? i think both parties lied. but this is not unique _ lie? i think both parties lied. but this is not unique to _ lie? i think both parties lied. but this is not unique to the - lie? i think both parties lied. but this is not unique to the uk. - lie? i think both parties lied. but i this is not unique to the uk. across the western— this is not unique to the uk. across the western world, democratic politicians are not being honest with their— politicians are not being honest with their electric plume because they fear— with their electric plume because they fear that they will not be elected~ — they fear that they will not be elected. america's debt to gdp ratio is iio%. _ elected. america's debt to gdp ratio is 110%, france is 130, and it hasn't — is 110%, france is 130, and it hasn't been like this since the second — hasn't been like this since the second world war when we had just defeated _ second world war when we had just defeated fascism. we have been through— defeated fascism. we have been through a — defeated fascism. we have been through a period of relative peace, and the _ through a period of relative peace, and the problem is that democratic politicians — and the problem is that democratic politicians lie because they get away _ politicians lie because they get away with it. electorates are not gullible. — away with it. electorates are not gullible, but they elect people who break— gullible, but they elect people who break their promises and we go to the same — break their promises and we go to the same cycle. so why is it the most _ the same cycle. so why is it the most political operators feel that if parties — most political operators feel that if parties were honest with the electorate they would lose votes? it seems _

electorate they would lose votes? it seems to _ electorate they would lose votes? it seems to me that electorates need to take some _ seems to me that electorates need to take some responsibility for voting for inadequate and deceptive salespeople. we have to be more realistic— salespeople. we have to be more realistic as— salespeople. we have to be more realistic as voters in order to get the politicians that can actually tell us — the politicians that can actually tell us the truth and deal with this fiscal— tell us the truth and deal with this fiscal crisis. 50 tell us the truth and deal with this fiscal crisis-— fiscal crisis. so why don't politicians, _ fiscal crisis. so why don't politicians, if— fiscal crisis. so why don't politicians, if you - fiscal crisis. so why don't politicians, if you accept | fiscal crisis. so why don't - politicians, if you accept what matthew has just put forward, why won't politicians tell voters the truth? is it because they want to be elected? i’m truth? is it because they want to be elected? �* ., _ ., elected? i'm not so cynicalto necessarily — elected? i'm not so cynicalto necessarily put _ elected? i'm not so cynicalto necessarily put it _ elected? i'm not so cynicalto necessarily put it in _ elected? i'm not so cynicalto necessarily put it in those - elected? i'm not so cynical to - necessarily put it in those terms. we live in a world where we try to put everything into black and white terms and sometime things are not black and white. sometimes as politicians we are not necessary honest about the scale of the challenges and how things interlock in a way that can't be put out in a tweet, for example. so to some extent we have been reduced to sound bites in a way that means we are not necessarily tackling complex issues in a way that is palatable and winnable and comes across well on tv and social media in this age where

everyone is competing for attention, so you want to be snappy, but it is difficult to be snappy when you are grappling with really big issues. 1 grappling with really big issues. i think the fundamental problem is a cultural— think the fundamental problem is a cultural and psychological one. in order— cultural and psychological one. in order to — cultural and psychological one. in order to create growth, you need to defer— order to create growth, you need to defer gratification. in order to invest. — defer gratification. in order to invest, you don't consume. you need to make _ invest, you don't consume. you need to make sure — invest, you don't consume. you need to make sure you keep a lid on the debt and _ to make sure you keep a lid on the debt and don't max out the credit card _ debt and don't max out the credit card you — debt and don't max out the credit card. you don't want to bring in low-wage — card. you don't want to bring in low—wage immigration because even though— low—wage immigration because even though it _ low—wage immigration because even though it cuts the cost of social care _ though it cuts the cost of social care in — though it cuts the cost of social care in the _ though it cuts the cost of social care in the short term, it increases fiscal— care in the short term, it increases fiscal liabilities in the long term. you don't — fiscal liabilities in the long term. you don't want to print money and dehase _ you don't want to print money and dehase the — you don't want to print money and debase the currency. all of these are symptoms of a fundamental issue across— are symptoms of a fundamental issue across western civilisation which is across western civilisation which is a difficulty— across western civilisation which is a difficulty in deferring gratification for long—term gain. it is true _ gratification for long—term gain. it is true in — gratification for long—term gain. it is true in the united states, it is true _ is true in the united states, it is true in _ is true in the united states, it is true in the — is true in the united states, it is true in the uk, it is true across western— true in the uk, it is true across western europe. i think it reflects what _ western europe. i think it reflects what happened to rome, which was lean and _ what happened to rome, which was lean and hungry at the beginning of its great _ lean and hungry at the beginning of its great run of domination, it built— its great run of domination, it built fantastic infrastructure, had a brilliant — built fantastic infrastructure, had a brilliant military and then it

wanted — a brilliant military and then it wanted to have the blessings of success — wanted to have the blessings of success without incurring the costs, the public— success without incurring the costs, the public dole started to include olive _ the public dole started to include olive oil— the public dole started to include olive oil and wine, bread and circuses. _ olive oil and wine, bread and circuses, and they ran out of money and instead — circuses, and they ran out of money and instead of reining in their expenditure, they debase the currency _ expenditure, they debase the currency. the denarii went from 90% silver _ currency. the denarii went from 90% silver 20% _ currency. the denarii went from 90% silver 20% across two centuries. we are seeing _ silver 20% across two centuries. we are seeing similar trends in the west, _ are seeing similar trends in the west. and— are seeing similar trends in the west, and the problems at the moment is that— west, and the problems at the moment is that democracies are not stepping up is that democracies are not stepping up to— is that democracies are not stepping up to the _ is that democracies are not stepping up to the plate of a challenging world — up to the plate of a challenging world. �* , ., ., up to the plate of a challenging world. �* i. ., ., ., world. but when you are on a five ear world. but when you are on a five year electoral _ world. but when you are on a five year electoral cycle, _ world. but when you are on a five year electoral cycle, it _ world. but when you are on a five year electoral cycle, it is - world. but when you are on a five year electoral cycle, it is harder l year electoral cycle, it is harder to plan for that long term delayed gratification, because in four or five years, you could be booted out on the whole thing could be scrapped and started again. it makes it more difficult. it and started again. it makes it more difficult. ., , , ., �* difficult. it does, but wouldn't the electorate wish _ difficult. it does, but wouldn't the electorate wish to _ difficult. it does, but wouldn't the electorate wish to vote _ difficult. it does, but wouldn't the electorate wish to vote for - difficult. it does, but wouldn't the electorate wish to vote for a - difficult. it does, but wouldn't the electorate wish to vote for a party that makes the long—term argument. why is— that makes the long—term argument. why is it _ that makes the long—term argument. why is it we — that makes the long—term argument. why is it we give, perhaps margaret thatcher— why is it we give, perhaps margaret thatcher said, the most important political— thatcher said, the most important political decision outside war as interest— political decision outside war as interest rates. we have handed them over to _ interest rates. we have handed them over to an— interest rates. we have handed them

overto an independent interest rates. we have handed them over to an independent group of people — over to an independent group of people because democratic politicians don't trust themselves to do— politicians don't trust themselves to do the — politicians don't trust themselves to do the right thing. we are seeing a lot of— to do the right thing. we are seeing a lot of these devices in democracies at the moment and it is a fundamental issue.— democracies at the moment and it is a fundamental issue. before we came on air i a fundamental issue. before we came on air i went — a fundamental issue. before we came on air i went down _ a fundamental issue. before we came on air i went down to _ a fundamental issue. before we came on air i went down to westminster - a fundamental issue. before we came on air i went down to westminster to | on air i went down to westminster to talk to the chief secretary to the treasury called darrenjones, and i put it to him that while around half of the £22 billion shortfall in the public finances is due to public sector pay, it was labour that made the choice to accept the recommendations on public sector pat’- so the pay review bodies are organisations that make recommendations on public sector pay, but they make recommendations for ministers. former minister set them to work, but the one thing they didn't do this time was include the assumptions on affordability, so the pay review bodies did their work, we arrived in this government, they have made their recommendations. you are right, we could have decided not to accept them today, but we know thatjust in health for example it

has cost over £1 billion last year alone from striking doctors which causes all of these implications for patients in the health service, so we wanted to reset the relationship with public sector workers today alongside the need for reform and modernisation, and so yes we took the decision to fund those. find modernisation, and so yes we took the decision to fund those.- the decision to fund those. and so that is your _ the decision to fund those. and so that is your political _ the decision to fund those. and so that is your political choice? - the decision to fund those. and so that is your political choice? it - that is your political choice? it is, but the alternative is not a good choice either, which is why we have made the difficult decision to reset these relationships with public sector workers, to get them back to work serving the public so that we can work together on modernising and reforming public services and deliver priorities for the country. but services and deliver priorities for the country-— the country. but you could have chosen to _ the country. but you could have chosen to pay — the country. but you could have chosen to pay a _ the country. but you could have chosen to pay a lower _ the country. but you could have chosen to pay a lower amount l the country. but you could have i chosen to pay a lower amount and the country. but you could have - chosen to pay a lower amount and you say that would potentially risk more strike action but it would have meant the so—called black hole the smaller. meant the so-called black hole the smaller. ,., , meant the so-called black hole the smaller. , ,., , smaller. the pay review body recommendations _ smaller. the pay review body recommendations were - smaller. the pay review body - recommendations were reflective as what has taken place in the economy. you don't have to accept them, do you? hf you don't have to accept them, do ou? �* ., . . , , you? if we didn't accept them, they would be implications _ you? if we didn't accept them, they would be implications for _ you? if we didn't accept them, they would be implications for that - you? if we didn't accept them, they would be implications for that that l would be implications for that that we will also have to factor into finance. , , . , i. ., finance. the spending cuts you have made announced _

finance. the spending cuts you have made announced today _ finance. the spending cuts you have made announced today 5 _ finance. the spending cuts you have made announced today 5 billion - finance. the spending cuts you have made announced today 5 billion of l made announced today 5 billion of that 20 billion shortfall. so does that 20 billion shortfall. so does that mean our audience can expect after the budget in october £15 billion worth of spending cuts and tax rises? we have more work to do from today till the budget on october 30 to push down on in your spending. some things we have announced today, for example, is that we expect departments to reduce the amount they spend at consultants, which has been year for some of the big consultancies. the government communication service was spending hundreds of billions filming content for conservative ministers�* social media channels. for conservative ministers' social media channels.— media channels. hundreds of millions? _ millions? hundreds of hundreds of millions of pounds, that needs to be reduced, so we are going to reduce it. but even with those reductions, that leaves 15 billion still to come, so it is going to be bleak, isn�*t it, for voters? it is going to be had, and we have to work as hard as possible between now and october to get that number down, but you are right, we will then have to settle that number at

then have to settle that number at the budget in october as because of this financial year and starts to face the future, having cleared up the mess from the conservatives and starting to deliver the change labour promised that this election. but shouldn�*t we also make clear to viewers, this is all totally separate from the implied cuts that came out ofjeremy hunt�*s last spring budget, which you, labour, backed? those cuts are also still to come, courts, prisons, transport etc. the projections from the office for budget responsibility before the election to a couple of things differently to what would happen now, with the new budget forecast in october which will be updated. one thing is, leaf affected in former conservative policies we have now cancelled, like the rwanda scheme. we have change those policies. we have better ones in place, and that will change the forecasting. the other thing that will change, of course, is the previous obi our focus was on the basis of the conservative government�*s plans for getting growth into the economy. we�*ve already started to set out to planning reform and investment with

the private sector, action on labour and skills, how we plan to stimulant growth, and we hope that will be reflected in the obi our forecasts as well. ., ., , , , as well. you hope it will, but it is not a guarantee. _ as well. you hope it will, but it is not a guarantee. you _ as well. you hope it will, but it is not a guarantee. you have - as well. you hope it will, but it is - not a guarantee. you have announced a big benefit cut today outside of the budget. 10 million pensioners won�*t get their winter fuel payment any more, something that would normally be announced in a budget. are you honestly telling our audience like that you have no thoughts about cutting the winter fuel allowance until you got into the treasury injuly fuel allowance until you got into the treasury in july the fuel allowance until you got into the treasury injuly the 5th? irate fuel allowance until you got into the treasury in july the 5th? we did not work on — the treasury in july the 5th? we did not work on this _ the treasury in july the 5th? we did not work on this policy _ the treasury in july the 5th? we did not work on this policy in _ not work on this policy in opposition, i can give you that promise, because i worked on all of our policies in opposition. i�*m not saying it was necessarily a policy, elder elsie would have had to put it in your manifesto. are you saying you had no conversations about the winter fuel allowance? no, we didn�*t. this is not a secret policy we have pulled out of the hat post election. but you must have had conversations about it. no, because we didn�*t realise the amount of in year spending the conservatives had been doing that was outside of the budget. we only discovered that coming into power a

few weeks ago. that�*s why the chancellor was very clear today this is not a policy change that we relished or that we wanted to announce, because we recognise it�*s announce, because we recognise it�*s a difficult decision, but the winter fuel payments are, because they used to be universal, a very untargeted use of taxpayers�* money, and because we need to get money back into the bank, and it will save 1.5 billion pounds by doing this, we have decided to target it to pensioners needing the most.— decided to target it to pensioners needing the most. you're trying to net it out needing the most. you're trying to get it out of _ needing the most. you're trying to get it out of the _ needing the most. you're trying to get it out of the way _ needing the most. you're trying to get it out of the way ahead - needing the most. you're trying to get it out of the way ahead of - needing the most. you're trying to get it out of the way ahead of the l get it out of the way ahead of the budget. no, we think it�*s important to give advance notice to pensioners ahead of this change, because we want the 900,000 pensioners who currently don�*t apply the pension credit but who are entitled to it to sign up for pension credit, because in doing so, they will then guaranteed to continue to receive their winter fuel payments. you told voters today, the chancellor has cancelled multiple building

projects. so how does that boost growth? how is that not short term sticking plaster politics, and how is it stable for businesses? what sticking plaster politics, and how is it stable for businesses? what we have cancelled _ is it stable for businesses? what we have cancelled today _ is it stable for businesses? what we have cancelled today are _ is it stable for businesses? what we have cancelled today are projects i have cancelled today are projects that were never financed have cancelled today are projects that were neverfinanced in have cancelled today are projects that were never financed in the first place, but also, they were not projects that would stimulate growth in the economy by improving productivity. a tunnel under stonehenge that we have cancelled today, neverfinanced by the stonehenge that we have cancelled today, never financed by the tories were promised by them, will not stimulate long—term growth into the economy. it stimulate long-term growth into the econom . , ., economy. it will help with growth, whoa to? it _ economy. it will help with growth, whoa to? it will _ economy. it will help with growth, whoa to? it will create _ economy. it will help with growth, whoa to? it will create jobs. - economy. it will help with growth, whoa to? it will create jobs. it - whoa to? it will create jobs. it might help for a bit while they are building the road, but it will not improve productivity in the long run. �* improve productivity in the long run. ~ run. are you telling me infrastructure - run. are you telling me infrastructure projects | run. are you telling me l infrastructure projects do run. are you telling me - infrastructure projects do not necessarily build growth very much? come on. ., , , ., come on. you need the right type of infrastructure _ come on. you need the right type of infrastructure projects _ come on. you need the right type of infrastructure projects that - come on. you need the right type of infrastructure projects that allow - infrastructure projects that allow for improvements across the economy. that�*s what you will see from this government when we set out our budget and spending review and our infrastructure strategy. 50 in budget and spending review and our infrastructure strategy.— infrastructure strategy. so in the, doesnt infrastructure strategy. so in the, doesn't necessarily _ infrastructure strategy. so in the, doesn't necessarily boost - infrastructure strategy. so in the, doesn't necessarily boost growth, doesn�*t necessarily boost growth, but labour�*s will? that�*s not what i said. i said the 8303 was not a project that would

improve the growth prospects of this economy, and more importantly, it was never funded economy, and more importantly, it was neverfunded in the economy, and more importantly, it was never funded in the first place, which is why we have cancelled it today. do which is why we have cancelled it toda . , ., which is why we have cancelled it toda . ., which is why we have cancelled it toda. ., . today. do you have confidence in the treasury and — today. do you have confidence in the treasury and in _ today. do you have confidence in the treasury and in the _ today. do you have confidence in the treasury and in the treasury - treasury and in the treasury permanent secretary, who apparently didn�*t tell you what was really going on? i didn't tell you what was really going on?— didn't tell you what was really auoin on? ., ., , . going on? i have absolute confidence in treasury officials. _ going on? i have absolute confidence in treasury officials. how— going on? i have absolute confidence in treasury officials. how come? - in treasury officials. how come? because i _ in treasury officials. how come? because i have _ in treasury officials. how come? because i have worked - in treasury officials. how come? because i have worked with - in treasury officials. how come? | because i have worked with them in treasury officials. how come? - because i have worked with them for a number of weeks and they are all first rate. we have to be clear, ministers are accountable for the decisions ministers take, that�*s why i�*m talking to you this evening. officials advise ministers, ministers take decisions. the only people that should be held to account for the mess we have inherited are they conservative ministers that were running the country until the last general election, and frankly, i was deeply surprised thatjeremy hunt today didn�*t start by apologising to the country. darrenjones, country. darren jones, thanks for talking country. darrenjones, thanks for talking to us. matthew, does this feel like the theme for the next parliament? labour blaming the tories, just like the tories and coalition blamed labour in 2010?

they did, you bet. if it is, it is a bit they did, you bet. if it is, it is a hit tedious. _ they did, you bet. if it is, it is a hit tedious. i_ they did, you bet. if it is, it is a bit tedious, i think. they said, we said _ bit tedious, i think. they said, we said it _ bit tedious, i think. they said, we said it is — bit tedious, i think. they said, we said it is not— bit tedious, i think. they said, we said. it is not really getting to grips — said. it is not really getting to grips with— said. it is not really getting to grips with the fundamental... in fact, _ grips with the fundamental... in fact, i_ grips with the fundamental... in fact, i shouldn't admit this, i voted — fact, i shouldn't admit this, i voted for— fact, i shouldn't admit this, i voted for labour at the election and wanted _ voted for labour at the election and wanted them to win, disappointed that they— wanted them to win, disappointed that they were not fully truthful, but i _ that they were not fully truthful, but i think that even though there are some — but i think that even though there are some very good things they have already— are some very good things they have already announced and positive, it is not _ already announced and positive, it is not radical enough to address britain — is not radical enough to address britain was like a relative decline. i britain was like a relative decline. i would _ britain was like a relative decline. i would like to hear them talk more about— i would like to hear them talk more about inequality. we are going to go on to— about inequality. we are going to go on to talk— about inequality. we are going to go on to talk about the olympics. one thing _ on to talk about the olympics. one thing i_ on to talk about the olympics. one thing i loved about sport was that it was— thing i loved about sport was that it was not— thing i loved about sport was that it was not completely but largely meritocratic. people reach the top on the _ meritocratic. people reach the top on the basis of their hard work and talent _ on the basis of their hard work and talent rather than social connections and background. i think lahour— connections and background. i think labour should focus a lot on that, and i_ labour should focus a lot on that, and i won't — labour should focus a lot on that, and i won't bore you with my own proposals, — and i won't bore you with my own proposals, but a massive reform of the tax _ proposals, but a massive reform of the tax system is one thing they should _ the tax system is one thing they should do — the tax system is one thing they should do. at the moment, it feels like they— should do. at the moment, it feels like they are making good moves, but it is still— like they are making good moves, but it is still tinkering around the edges— it is still tinkering around the edges of— it is still tinkering around the edges of a fundamental problem. looking _ edges of a fundamental problem. looking forward to that column on the changes to the tax system! you said that with _ the changes to the tax system! you said that with a _

the changes to the tax system! you said that with a bit of irony! well, — said that with a bit of irony! well, maybe. i mean, labourare well, maybe. i mean, labour are borrowing from the tories�* 2010 playbook, you can�*t deny at? yes, we remember the note left by liam byrne, something still brought up liam byrne, something still brought up at the dispatch box up until a few months ago, there is no money left, which i think was a bit tongue in cheek, which is a tradition, i think, that the treasury secretary leave such an note, so it is not surprising labour are doing this, but it is surprising when they have claimed right through the election and previously of the other party of integrity, they believe in honesty, to be in the position we are now where the reason there is the so—called black hole is because a political decisions taken by the labour party. i think they need to own up to that. labour party. i think they need to own up to that-— labour party. i think they need to own up to that. although we had that letter from the _ own up to that. although we had that letter from the obi _ own up to that. although we had that letter from the obi are _ own up to that. although we had that letter from the obi are today - own up to that. although we had that letter from the obi are today saying i letter from the obi are today saying they would look at this, which did back—up some of what rachel reeves was saying. it does give her some ammunition?— ammunition? yes, but i think it's interesting _ ammunition? yes, but i think it's interesting as _ ammunition? yes, but i think it's interesting as well— ammunition? yes, but i think it's interesting as well that _ ammunition? yes, but i think it's interesting as well that the - ammunition? yes, but i think it's l interesting as well that the shadow chancellor has written to simon case this evening to talk about the

integrity of the figures which were signed up a very senior civil servants, implying that rachael ray is perhaps might not have been honest in her statement today. —— rachel reeves. more to come on that, perhaps. let�*s talk about the olympics, as you are a former olympian. many moons ago! i am hoping we have some old pictures of you! there they are. look at the state of mi! what mp — what olympics was mi! what olympics was that? ori-inally what olympics was that? originally you had hair?! yes, in 1992, you had hair?! yes, in1992, i had you had hair?! yes, in 1992, i had hair. that was yes, in1992, i had hair. that was sydney— yes, in 1992, i had hair. that was sydney in — yes, in 1992, i had hair. that was sydney in 2000. it was a disaster, victoria! _ sydney in 2000. it was a disaster, victoria! the performance psychology, four years of build—up, you go _ psychology, four years of build—up, you go out — psychology, four years of build—up, you go out into the megawatt arena and you _ you go out into the megawatt arena and you know those four years of preparation will hinge on the 30 minutes, — preparation will hinge on the 30 minutes, and my coach said to me, this is— minutes, and my coach said to me, this is where — minutes, and my coach said to me, this is where it is at. you have to deliver~ — this is where it is at. you have to deliver~ but _ this is where it is at. you have to deliver~ but i _ this is where it is at. you have to deliver. but i got a little tremble in my— deliver. but i got a little tremble in my hand, because of that, i was completely— in my hand, because of that, i was completely destroyed by a german opponent in my match. table tennis back then _ opponent in my match. table tennis back then was up till 21, so a typical— back then was up till 21, so a typical match would be 21—18. i lost

21-2! _ 21-2! that is like zt-zt - that is like me zt-zt — that is like me playing my kid 21-2! that is like me playin- my kid when that is like me playing my kid when he was six! but i wanted to ask you, what is your definition of winning? this is adam peaty�*s definition. have a look. it doesn�*t matter what the time it says on the board, i think in my heart, i have already won, because... and everybody at home knows you are a winner. _ and everybody at home knows you are a winner. and— and everybody at home knows you are a winner, and —— youryoung man over there. _ a winner, and —— youryoung man over there. your— a winner, and —— youryoung man over there. your son — a winner, and —— youryoung man over there, yourson, he a winner, and —— youryoung man over there, your son, he knows you are a winnen _ there, your son, he knows you are a winnen they— there, your son, he knows you are a winner. they all love you just as much _ winner. they all love you just as much now— winner. they all love you just as much now as when the race started. i'm much now as when the race started. i'm not— much now as when the race started. i'm not crying because i came i�*m not crying because i came second, i�*m crying because itjust took so much to get here. tom daley collected a silver medal in the men�*s synchronised 10—metre diving today in front of his six—year—old son. that was with noah williams. he first spoke to the bbc as a 13—year—old with a dream to become an olympic gold medallist and has been reflecting on thatjourney. he was talking to gabby logan. as a kid, growing up and feeling different and feeling like i didn�*t

quite fit in, i always felt like i had to overachieve to disguise the part of me that i always thought was considered wrong. so this is my bedroom. the bedroom of a budding olympian. that bedroom! i know how i felt in that period of time, and it was like a very tortured soul, and i struggled with all kinds of different things. so what is your definition of winning? if you had asked me that question 30 years— if you had asked me that question 30 years ago. _ if you had asked me that question 30 years ago. i_ if you had asked me that question 30 years ago, i would have said it is about— years ago, i would have said it is about being at the top of the podium. _ about being at the top of the podium, and anything else is a waste of time _ podium, and anything else is a waste of time the — podium, and anything else is a waste of time. the older i have got, the more _ of time. the older i have got, the more i_ of time. the older i have got, the more i have — of time. the older i have got, the more i have realised, ithink, that it is all— more i have realised, ithink, that it is all about the journey, and the journey— it is all about the journey, and the journey isn't — it is all about the journey, and the journey isn'tjust about it is all about the journey, and the journey isn't just about the person who competes, it's about the parents who competes, it's about the parents who have _ who competes, it's about the parents who have made sacrifices to give them _ who have made sacrifices to give them a _ who have made sacrifices to give them a chance. it's about the mentor, _ them a chance. it's about the mentor, it's about the coach. these are remarkable odysseys. the other thing _ are remarkable odysseys. the other thing is, _ are remarkable odysseys. the other thing is, it— are remarkable odysseys. the other thing is, it is— are remarkable odysseys. the other thing is, it is a celebration of excellence. in so many areas of life, _ excellence. in so many areas of life. it — excellence. in so many areas of life. it is — excellence. in so many areas of life. it is a _ excellence. in so many areas of life, it is a great area, who is better? — life, it is a great area, who is better? it— life, it is a great area, who is better? it is highly subjective. in

many— better? it is highly subjective. in many sports,... actually, in diving, there _ many sports,... actually, in diving, there is— many sports,... actually, in diving, there is a _ many sports,... actually, in diving, there is a subjective element, but it is much— there is a subjective element, but it is much more objective, and i think— it is much more objective, and i think to — it is much more objective, and i think to he _ it is much more objective, and i think to be the best you can be, to maximise — think to be the best you can be, to maximise your potential, there is something — maximise your potential, there is something tremendously empowering about that, and if that means you finish _ about that, and if that means you finish first, — about that, and if that means you finish first, fantastic. if not, i never— finish first, fantastic. if not, i never got _ finish first, fantastic. if not, i never got to the top of the world rankings — never got to the top of the world rankings i— never got to the top of the world rankings. i won the commonwealths three _ rankings. i won the commonwealths three times, just like to point out quickly! _ three times, just like to point out quickly! but it was a wonderful journey — journey. did you watch tom journey — did you watch tom pidcock on the mountain biking today? now that an incredible race! and i�*m sure as newsnight viewers will have seen on the website or on bbc television, absolutely astonishing. essentially he... have you seen this? i haven�*t seen any clips yet. he got a puncture in the middle of the mountain bike race. we ended up being lto seconds behind and still won gold! i mean, that isjust the best story ever, isn�*t it?! talk about a comeback! it was astonishing! the person who was in the lead was french, _ the person who was in the lead was french, and — the person who was in the lead was french, and getting remarkable support, — french, and getting remarkable support, and because of this

puncture, _ support, and because of this puncture, you can imagine, psychologically feeling as if fate is against me, and then working... and it _ is against me, and then working... and it took— is against me, and then working... and it took a — is against me, and then working... and it took a long time to start to hring _ and it took a long time to start to hring the — and it took a long time to start to bring the gap down to 30 seconds, and then— bring the gap down to 30 seconds, and then 25, and time is running out _ and then 25, and time is running out and — and then 25, and time is running out. and the commitment and the drive _ out. and the commitment and the drive you — out. and the commitment and the drive. you can imagine each second probably— drive. you can imagine each second probably took hours and hours of training — probably took hours and hours of training and endurance. that was one of the _ training and endurance. that was one of the most _ training and endurance. that was one of the most remarkable performances. do you _ of the most remarkable performances. do you know _ of the most remarkable performances. do you know the name lola anderson? she is in the women�*s quadruple sculls, team gb. she was watching as a girl, london 2012, and she was lit, and wrote in her diary, my name is lola anderson, and i think it would be my biggest dream in life to go to the olympics in rowing and if possible to win a gold for team gb. she was embarrassed about what she had written. she ripped out the page in her diary, chucked it in a bin. her dad found it and kept it. seven years later, her dad got this piece of paper out of his safety deposit box and gave it back to her. she was

already then competing for her country, and he had a terminal illness. he gave it back to her, and she is now in team gb in the women�*s quadruple sculls. i mean, these stories... and her dad has died. you know, these stories are just incredible. you only get those in the olympics, don�*t you, matthew? yes, i think there is a moment in 2012. _ yes, i think there is a moment in 2012, a _ yes, i think there is a moment in 2012, a judo— yes, i think there is a moment in 2012, a judo player, yes, i think there is a moment in 2012, ajudo player, gemma yes, i think there is a moment in 2012, a judo player, gemma gibbons, i 2012, a judo player, gemma gibbons, i hope _ 2012, a judo player, gemma gibbons, i hope i've _ 2012, a judo player, gemma gibbons, i hope i've got the details right... it is i hope i've got the details right... it is not _ i hope i've got the details right... it is not gibbons, it is gemma, though. i will look it up. she made a remark about her parents who had _ she made a remark about her parents who had passed away, and it got me so profoundly, because it is the people — so profoundly, because it is the people who make sacrifices for you to he _ people who make sacrifices for you to he the _ people who make sacrifices for you to be the best you can be that makem — to be the best you can be that make... thanks for looking it up. it make... thanks for looking it up. it is _ make... thanks for looking it up. it is gemma _ make... thanks for looking it up. it is gemma gibbons, you are absolutely right. and honestly, ithink absolutely right. and honestly, i think parents often tet and honestly, i think parents often get a _ and honestly, i think parents often get a hard — and honestly, i think parents often get a hard time in society, don't they? _ get a hard time in society, don't they? a — get a hard time in society, don't they? a lot— get a hard time in society, don't they? a lot of the psychotherapy, blame _ they? a lot of the psychotherapy, blame the —

they? a lot of the psychotherapy, blame the parents for everything that has— blame the parents for everything that has gone wrong in your life. you know. — that has gone wrong in your life. you know, family such a profound unit in— you know, family such a profound unit in our— you know, family such a profound unit in our society, so many of the people _ unit in our society, so many of the people i_ unit in our society, so many of the people i have interviewed as a sports — people i have interviewed as a sportsjournalist, when people i have interviewed as a sports journalist, when you people i have interviewed as a sportsjournalist, when you go people i have interviewed as a sports journalist, when you go and deconstruct the journey, they talk about— deconstruct the journey, they talk about parents. it might be a single mum: _ about parents. it might be a single mum, single father, it might be both of them _ mum, single father, it might be both of them it— mum, single father, it might be both of them. it might be someone who has passed _ of them. it might be someone who has passed away. and it isjust a beautiful— passed away. and it isjust a beautiful thing, and i think it tells — beautiful thing, and i think it tells us — beautiful thing, and i think it tells us a _ beautiful thing, and i think it tells us a deep story about where greatness — tells us a deep story about where greatness comes from. ithink— greatness comes from. i think there is the role of those inspirational teachers at school who spot something and recommend the kid stepped up and goes to try to play for their city or county or whatever. they are amazing stories too. we�*ve seen a few of those in this olympics. i'll i�*ll read a few of the pages of tomorrow�*s newspapers. they are all leading on what has happened in southport. the time says knife attack on children was like a horror movie. the daily mail, two children dead and holiday club carnage. the telegraph, knifeman kills two children on holiday club horror. the guardian, two children dead and nine injured in ferocious attack at dance class, and the i, deadly knife

attack at children�*s dance class. andy metro: tv huw kid pawn charge. former bbc presenter huw edwards has been charged with making indecent images of children and will appear in court on wednesday. thanks to both of you for being with us this evening. you are off the brazil to start a new life! three days! we wish you the very best, we really do. thank you, matthew, to come back. just before we go, irish literary legend edna o�*brien, author of the country girls, has died aged 93. kirsty spoke to her on newsnight back in 2002. and straight after us here on bbc two, do watch imagine with alan yentob for his interview with edna o�*brien. here is the chat. people say you are railing against ireland, _ people say you are railing against ireland, in— people say you are railing against ireland, in a sense, you are anti—ireland. what is your response to that? _ to that? it - to that? it is true that i to that? — it is true that i address topics that are not welcome. a,