next on bbc news, hardtalk with stephen sackur. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. how close are we to a multi—front war in the middle east? with or without formal confirmation, it seems israel has assassinated two two key enemies in 2a hours — a hezbollah commander in beirut, a hamas leader in tehran. meanwhile, israel's assault on gaza continues with no sign of a ceasefire or the release

of israeli hostages. my guest is ohad tal, an mp from the far—right—wing pro—settler religious zionism party in israel's ruling coalition. amid all the talk of escalation, what is israel's endgame? ohad tal injerusalem, welcome to hardtalk. hello, stephen. thank you very much for having me. yeah, it's a pleasure

to have you on hardtalk. the world has just seen two carefully targeted assassinations — one of a hezbollah commander in beirut, the second of the political leader of hamas, in iran's capital, tehran. now, israel has confirmed it was responsible for the attack in beirut. no official word on the attack in iran, but it's widely assumed israeli responsibility for both. why? why do you think israel has done it now? well, maybe we should have done it before. already before. maybe that would have prevented october 7th. er, these... both of these people are responsible for the death of thousands of people. you know, just a couple of days ago, there was an attack of hezbollah to a druze village in the northern area of israel, killed 12 children,

injured so many more. that was under the responsibility of this hezbollah commander who, thank god, died yesterday, paid with his life. of course, these are terrorists who are not only that, this person also is in charge of the death, is responsible for the death of over 200 american marines. he's a murderer. he's a barbaric murderer. and i think the world is a better place without him. right, so that's your explanation of why israel assassinated fuad shukr in the southern suburbs of beirut. perhaps of more long—term significance is the killing of ismail haniyeh, the political leader of hamas, in the iranian capital, tehran. now, it is obvious that ismail haniyeh was involved in indirect talks with israel about a ceasefire. that was his role — chief negotiator in the long—running protracted ceasefire negotiations. why would you take out the man you're talking to about trying to get a deal for hostages

and a ceasefire in gaza? ismail haniyeh... and, of course, i'm not confirming if israel has done anything to him. but whoever did that, i think did a greatjob. but i can only say that he was the number—one person of hamas. on october 7th, you saw him, together with the whole leadership of hamas, rejoicing, happy, celebrating the massacre of 1,200 people and the...and the kidnap of over 250 people. that is the man. he's responsible for the deaths of so many israelis and americans and people from other nationalities for many, many decades. this man should only deserve

what he got last night. i come back to my point. israel was indirectly in negotiation with hamas and with ismail haniyeh about a ceasefire and prisoner exchange for those israeli hostages held inside the gaza strip. what does it say when you assassinate the man that you're negotiating with? israel hasn't launched the war on october 7th, just to remind everybody. hamas launched this attack on october 7th. until this moment, they're holding over 100 israelis in their, er... until this moment, they're holding over 100 israelis in gaza, in the underground tunnels. yes, we need to do what we have to do in order to bring back the hostages.

we went out to this war in order to bring them back, and to make sure that hamas will no longer be able to pose a threat to the life of israelis. those were the goals of the war, and we have to accomplish that. the only way to do that is by eradicating the leadership of hamas and eradicating all its military capabilities. this is what we've promised to our people. this is what we've said on day one, and this is what we are doing until today. and thank god, i think, the fact that ismail haniyeh, the leader of hamas, is no longer with us, only makes the world a better place. this group of terrorists, they are notjust terrorising israel, they are terrorising the region. they are terrorising the world. and i think the world is a very better place now. you, um... much better place. you personally have advocated for a long time, long before october 7th, for israel to have a strategic reset, to commit itself to total military victory over its enemies. and, of course, you say the number—one enemy

lies in tehran, is iran. are you now welcoming the prospect of a very significant military escalation with iran? we've seen supreme leader ali khamenei, since the killing of haniyeh, blaming israel, saying that harsh punishment of israel is now tehran�*s duty. you welcome all—out conflict with iran? israel doesn't want to engage wars. we never wanted... we didn't... again, as i said, we didn't engage the war, started the war on october 7th. again, as i said, we didn't engage the war, started the war on october 7th. it was hamas. it was actually iran. but we cannot fool ourselves. we cannot think that, you know, if we would not want to have a war, then our enemies would not want to do the same thing. they do want to have a war. they do want to destroy israel. by the way, they don'tjust want to destroy israel. they want to take down the entire western civilisation. they are saying it — only yesterday in tehran, they burned american flags and they shouted, "death to israel, death to america."

this is what they actually want to do. you know, a couple of weeks ago, i saw a video of... i understand... ..the muslim brotherhood... i understand that you want to analyse iran's motivations. but as you're sitting here with me on hardtalk, i want to have you discuss with me israel's motivations. and respond to this — vali nasr, a former senior state department official in the us, has said that these assassinations were, quote, "done in a deliberately provocative manner "designed "designed to invite — invite — escalatory retaliation." do you agree with that? no, of course i do not agree with that. fuad shukr, he was the person in charge of killing 12 children in northern israeljust a couple of days ago. what are you offering? you're saying we should not respond to that? when we are attacking back, this is part of defending ourselves. this is what we are doing. i don't know if you're aware to the fact that, as we speak, for ten months, there's over 80,000 israelis

from northern israel who are homeless in their own country, they cannot go back to their homes because they are being constantly bombed by hezbollah with about 7,000 rockets, who were launched to israel in the last ten months. you're saying that we should just accept that as a fact of life? no, of course we should prevent that from happening. and the way to prevent that from happening is to take down the leadership of these terror organisations who are shooting at us. just...just a thought — because as i pointed out, with the killing of haniyeh, it raises new questions about the viability of any negotiations to get a ceasefire and a release of the israeli hostages in gaza. just answer me this — how do you think that the families of the many israeli hostages

still held in gaza are going to be feeling now that they've woken up to the news that haniyeh, the chief hamas negotiator, has been assassinated? how do you think they are feeling? the only way to bring back all the hostages... and this is what we are trying to do. the only way to bring back all the hostages is by eradicating hamas, is by pressuring them, is by forcing them to bring them back. if you're thinking that you will negotiate with them and we will come up with some kind of compromise with them in which they will bring back the hostages, you're fooling yourself. i'm not willing to fool myself, because... with respect, it's clear that many, many israelis... stephen, stephen, just a second. they are not england. they are not a country in europe. they are a terror organisation who has only one goal, and that is to destroy israel. you cannot compromise with somebody who wants to destroy you. if you want to make them bring back the hostages, you have to make them do that.

what we've seen in the hebrew israeli press recently, are military sources saying that the military high command believes now it's incompatible to get the remaining hostages out of gaza and at the same time deliver on this complete destruction of hamas. and it seems the command believes the right thing to do is have a ceasefire and a hostage release — now. why are you so opposed to that? first of all these specialists who are voicing their opinions, ok. you know, they were the ones to tell us that hamas is deteriorated and we are not expected to see any, any war launching from gaza. and we've seen exactly what actually happened on october 7th. so allow me not to take everything they're saying as the absolute truth. there's only one way to bring back all the hostages. we've seen that.

i mean, we are negotiating with hamas about the hostages for months already. every time we are reaching some kind of an agreement, they're taking it back. not i'm saying that — president biden himself said that several times. so, yes, the only way to bring back the hostages is by pressuring hamas, is by making them, by forcing them to bring back the hostages. that's the only way that is practical in order to bring them back. listen to the words of daniel hagari, the israeli military�*s chief spokesman, quote, "those who think we can make hamas disappear are wrong. "hamas is an idea. "hamas is a political party. "it is rooted in people's hearts." the military agrees with the idea of degrading hamas, but your pursuit of absolute elimination, they say, is impossible. tell me, is nazism an idea? stephen, is nazism — is an idea?

it's a simple question. what do you think, what is your answer to that? are you asking me, or are you asking the israeli military? i'm asking you! because i'm telling you what the israeli military is saying. ok, i don't have to agree with everything people are saying. i'm asking you if nazism is an idea. you can pose questions like that to me. what is your response? your problem, if i may say so, ohad tal, is that the israeli your problem, if i may say so, ohad tal, is that the israeli public, in the most recent poll from the times of israel, 60% saying they want a ceasefire deal and return of hostages now. we have quotes like the one i've just given you from the military chief spokesman, saying that hamas cannot be made to disappear... i'll tell you, stephen... it seems to many israelis your position is one... i will tell you a couple of things. ..of permanent war in gaza. you just don't want a ceasefire... no, no, no, no.

..because ultimately, you want to see gaza rendered unliveable, and the people who are there either moved out — many of them killed, as we've already seen — or, i imagine, under complete israeli control indefinitely. it's very nice of you to try and tell me what i think. i will tell you what i think. israel has proven — and this is what i think — israel has proven for so many years that we want peace more than anything. israel is a very, very small country, only the size of newjersey — and yet, for 30 years, we are trying to do everything we can, including giving parts of this tiny land to our arab neighbours, hoping that that will achieve peace. unfortunately, this approach hasn't proved itself. as much as we are giving them land, as much as we gave them gaza in 2005, gave it all them — we have withdrawn from the gaza strip, gave it all to the palestinians. billions of dollars were invested in gaza. and, instead of making gaza the singapore of the middle east, as they could have done, they chose to make it into the biggest terror nest of the world. so, yes, i think that

is the wrong approach. and if we want to bring our hostages, we have to force them doing that. and, about the polls in israel, i want to tell you one thing. i think that what you should do is read the whole poll. the whole poll says that, yes, they want ceasefire. yes, they want to bring back the hostages. but when you ask the israelis if they're willing to allow the idf to withdraw from the gaza strip again, the vast majority are saying no. if you're asking them, if you're willing to a ceasefire without eradicating hamas, the vast majority of israelis would say no. so it's also the question — it's how you ask the question. it's part of the answer that you would get. do you believe in the idea of an innocent civilian in gaza? i read the polls of dr khalil shikaki, a palestinian — among palestinians, including in gaza, not i'm saying it — a palestinian who did a poll among palestinians, including in gaza, and that showed already for months, by the way, it's three

polls that he did in the last couple of months — over 80% of the palestinians support hamas till this moment. over 70% justify the massacre of october 7th, saying that if they would have a chance, they would repeat it time and time again. so you so tell me... so... yeah, i understand, so when you said in the united states not long ago, "it's very hard to differentiate where hamas ends "and where the civilian population begins..." exactly. "..the only way i believe that we can achieve victory "in this war is by making them pay a price". you were clearly talking about the civilians, weren't you? which, i guess, is of a piece with the fact that the death toll, according to the health ministry in gaza, now stands at close to 40,000 — the majority of them women and children — where we have un agencies saying that the catastrophe in gaza, in terms of humanitarian suffering, is worsening by the day and the week. we have reports of

malnutrition spreading. we even have reports from the who of polio now being a very real threat in gaza. and you regard all of that as legitimate, in terms of a punishment, do you? no, we're not seeking to punish anybody. we are seeking two things. we are seeking to eradicate hamas, to make sure that they will not be able to kill our civilians again, and to bring back the hostages. no, i'm not talking now about the... you say, in your official statements in israel, you say 14,000 hamas fighters killed. i'm talking about the tens of thousands of civilians killed. stephen, if you want to ask a question for a whole minute, and then, you one only want me to answer it for ten seconds, it will not work, so please allow me to complete my answer. we are not seeking to punish anybody. we are seeking to bring back the hostages and to make sure that hamas will not be able to kill us. this is what we are trying to do in this war. our soldiers protecting,

with their own lives, risking their lives to protect palestinian civilians in gaza. you know, at the beginning of the war, we've designated safe zones to the palestinians of gaza. hamas were shooting their own people, preventing them preventing them from entering these safe zones, from entering the: safe zones, and our soldiers were protecting them. yeah, you... we are doing everything we can. if you'll check the numbers, if you'll check the data, the real facts on the ground, you will discover that the ratio of harming civilian in gaza in this war is unprecedented. have you, just as a matter of interest...? not any other army in the world has even came close to what... and yet, we are sorry for every civilian casualty, but when hamas is using their own people as human shields, they are the only people you can blame for the number of dead in gaza.

you talk about protecting palestinians. have you seen the video released just a few days ago by idf soldiers of those self—same idf soldiers blowing up a key water storage facility in rafah — where, of course, water is desperately short — and saying on the video that they put out that it was "an honour to do this on shabbat". that's an international crime, isn't it, against humanitarian law? i don't know of this video that you're referring to. i can only tell you the facts. the facts are that, since the beginning of the war, there are more trucks with humanitarian aid, with food, with supplies entering gaza than before the war. that is a fact. so, if there's any starvation or thirst in gaza, it's only because hamas taking control of these trucks and preventing, again, preventing their own people from getting the trucks, from getting these supplies, that is the only fact that... see, mr tal, iwould put it to you that soldiers feel free

to put that kind of video out on social media platforms because there is an attitude of impunity, a confidence that they will not be punished for violating international, or indeed israeli national law. another example of that is what has been happening in one of your detention facilities inside israel, sde teiman, where hamas suspects are being held, where there are now serious allegations of the gravest sexual abuse of suspected hamas militants. your party, your political party sent a mob, along with others, sent a mob of armed people to that detention centre just a couple of days ago to try to stop security personnel from detaining those accused of these egregious abuses. why? first of all, it's a complete lie. we haven't sent anybody anywhere.

and not only that, i publicly tweeted on that and said that anybody who is going there and trying to prevent this investigation is doing a horrible, horrible thing. so, what you're saying is — first of all, it's a complete lie, this is one thing. second of all, the fact that we are investigating our own people when there's even just a suspicious of something which was done wrongly, then it only proves that israel has a very strong and independent law enforcement system. we are obligated 100%, 100%... you know what? more than 100%. because i don't know any other country in the world who takes care and feeding their enemies while at war. but we are obligated 100% to international law. and whenever there's problems,

we are investigating, and whoever...

a little bit warmer across scotland and northern ireland to start friday than we've had of late, but it will be another muggy one for england and wales. start to see some changes into friday — this new area of low pressure will bring weather fronts, outbreaks of rain, strengthening winds to western scotland and northern ireland through the day, winds also picking up through the irish sea. large parts of eastern scotland, certainly england and wales will have another sunny afternoon with a few thunderstorms across eastern england — but it's going to be another warm one again, 28—29 celsius in the warmest spots in the southeast, low—20s further north and west. and it will be turning fresher here as this weather front starts to cross the country during saturday. eventually, it will reach east and southeastern england during saturday afternoon, clearing through, then allowing fresher air to move in across most areas, with sunny spells, variable cloud, scattered showers for western scotland and northern ireland. here, the high teens at best, further south, it's cooler as well, 21—25 celsius. the fresher air will be across all areas as we move into part two of the weekend.

low pressure starts to dominate, bringing ourairsource from the atlantic. not a bad day in store for sunday — a lot of sunshine through central, southern, and eastern areas, more cloud further north and west. we'll start to see more persistent rain moving into northern ireland and western scotland with strengthening winds. high teens celsius again in the north and west, low—to—mid—20s further south.

live from singapore, this is bbc news. lets get you the headlines... israel's prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, says israel has delivered crushing blows to its enemies — after the killing of a hezbollah commander and a leader of hamas. more than 100 are arrested in a second night of violence as police investigating a mass stabbing in the north of england are due to give an update this hour — we'll bring it to you live. and the bbc says it is "shocked" by what it calls the "abhorrent behaviour" of former presenter huw edwards, who's pleaded guilty to making indecent images of children.