live from london. this is bbc news. three us citizens imprisoned in russia, including wall streetjournal reporter evan gershkovich, are expected to be released under a prisoner exchange deal in the coming hours. a russian government plane landed in the turkish capital ankara shortly after turkey said it was coordinating an extensive prisoner swap. here are live pictures from the airport. the funeral of the political leader of hamas, ismail haniyeh, is held in tehran — benjamin netanyahu says israel delivered �*crushing blows�* to its enemies. iran vows revenge. the suspect in the southport stabbings named in court as restrictions lifted.

hello, i'm annita mcveigh and welcome to verified live, three hours of checking out the news and the facts behind the stories. the biggest prisoner exchange since the end of the cold war is expected to take place in the coming hours between russia and the west when as many as 2a prisoners could be freed. the biden administration says it has agreed to an exchange to secure the release of three american citizens imprisoned in russia, including wall streetjournal reporter evan gershkovich, marine veteran paul whelan, and russian—american radio journalist alsu kurmasheva. and according to the german magazine der speigel, this plane on the tarmac in the turkish capital ankara is taking vadim krasikov, identified by germany as a colonel in the the russian fsb intelligence service, back to russia. he's been serving a life sentence

in germany for the murder in 2019 in berlin of a kremlin critic. with me is our security correspondent frank gardner. we have a number of correspondence lining up to talk to us about this developing story and what we are expecting in the next couple of hours, but first we are actually going to go to our russia editor steve rosenberg who is in moscow for us. we are going to you now because in a day are big developments you have to leave us pretty quickly but first of all ring us right up—to—date with the details of this exchange as you understand them there in moscow. first exchange as you understand them there in moscow.— there in moscow. first of all it looks as if _ there in moscow. first of all it looks as if this _ there in moscow. first of all it looks as if this exchange - there in moscow. first of all it looks as if this exchange is . there in moscow. first of all it i looks as if this exchange is going ahead. i can confirm the numbers of people involved. earlier reports suggested that 2a prisoners were involved. reports a few minutes ago suggested 26. either way this is the

largest east— west prisoner exchange since the cold war. which in a sense is remarkable when you consider the current tension between russia and the west over russia's war on ukraine. it shows that channels of communication, some channels of communications for certain things have remained intact. we know that discussions have been going on for a long time between moscow and washington over the possible release of evan gershkovich, the wall street journal reporter, and paul whelan the former us marine who has been in a russianjailfor more the former us marine who has been in a russian jail for more than five years, and it seems as if recently a breakthrough was made and this large—scale swap was put together involving several countries, not only russia, belarus and the united states, but possibly also poland, possibly norway, some reports

suggested that, possibly other countries. we will have more information when we get the final lists are little bit later on, but this was a complicated deal put together and russia will be getting back it seems agents and spies that it wanted. i think if that is the case, that where putin will consider this to bejob done, mission accomplished. the concern looking ahead is it russia will conclude from this that what has come to be referred to as hostage diplomacy works. we saw it with the us basketball star brittney griner who was put in a russianjailfor drugs offences, and russia have managed to swap her for a convicted offences, and russia have managed to swap herfor a convicted russian arms dealer in an american jail, backin arms dealer in an american jail, back in december 2022. shortly after evan gershkovich the american reporter was arrested on assignment

in ekaterinburg and russian officials made it pretty clear they saw him as a bargaining chip to try to bring about the release of russians abroad. it looks as if this is happening. of course for the friends and families of those people free from russian jails, friends and families of those people free from russianjails, it friends and families of those people free from russian jails, it is a day of great celebration, but as i say, we cannot exclude this kind of thing happening again. we cannot exclude this kind of thing happening again-— happening again. thank you very much. happening again. thank you very much- let's _ happening again. thank you very much- let's go — happening again. thank you very much. let's go to _ happening again. thank you very much. let's go to berlin - happening again. thank you very much. let's go to berlin now- happening again. thank you very j much. let's go to berlin now and happening again. thank you very - much. let's go to berlin now and our eastern europe current fondant terror raynsford. steve saying that discussions have been going on a long time to try to bring out this prisoners up, why is this happening now and why has it come together at this moment?— this moment? difficult to know for sure, but this moment? difficult to know for sure. but we _ this moment? difficult to know for sure, but we know _ this moment? difficult to know for sure, but we know those - this moment? difficult to know for i sure, but we know those negotiations have been extremely intense. they have been extremely intense. they have been extremely intense. they have been going on when it comes to

paul whelan for example, the former us marine, four years. when he was arrested and we first saw him in court, i rememberway arrested and we first saw him in court, i remember way back then him and his lawyer making it clear they believed he had been taken for a prisoner swap. believed he had been taken for a prisonerswap. he believed he had been taken for a prisoner swap. he talked about hostage diplomacy way back then. he is still in prison but as steve are just outlining there have been two other high—profile prisoner swap since then. we know there is this, and occasion. there are these negotiations. i think when evan gershkovich was arrested just over a year ago, gershkovich was arrested just over a yearago, i gershkovich was arrested just over a year ago, i think perhaps those negotiations really intensified. certainly to get american citizens released and returned from russia. i know from families and relatives of russian political prisoners who are being mentioned as part of this major prisoner swap as possible names, not confirmed yet but possible names, i know from them that they have been advocating very firmly and very loudly whenever they

have been meeting european diplomats and government ministers and officials, they have been saying there needs to be a much broader exchange. for example the wife of vladimir kara—murza has always made it quite clear, that she advocated firmly for russian political prisoners, especially those with serious illnesses, to be returned from russian prisons. it does seem that the scope and scale of this swap, that has been arranged, has gradually expanded to the size that we now see it being. this is a huge deal, unprecedented, and i think are so many families, all watching extremely closely of course, this could be a moment that they possibly never dared believe might happen, but they are just waiting on tenterhooks. i have been speaking to quite a few relatives and nobody wants to speak publicly for now until they see the relatives stepping off that plane but they are extremely nervous and very worried

about what is happening. let extremely nervous and very worried about what is happening.— extremely nervous and very worried about what is happening. let me pick u . about what is happening. let me pick u- on that about what is happening. let me pick up on that because _ about what is happening. let me pick up on that because you _ about what is happening. let me pick up on that because you know - about what is happening. let me pick up on that because you know some . about what is happening. let me pick| up on that because you know some of the people whose names are being mentioned as possibly being involved in this exchange, you know some of the families, and that he just mentioned, they can hardly dare to believe that this is happening, i expect, until they have the member of the family home with them. tell us more about what they have had to say about these discussions that have been going on for a long time now. . , , , ., , now. precisely. their nerves are why not they are — now. precisely. their nerves are why not they are saying _ now. precisely. their nerves are why not they are saying anything - not they are saying anything publicly. i can tell you the broad outline of what i am being told, which is that people are terrified that they could jinx the deal if they speak about it. they can't quite believe it could be happening. for many people this is something they have been advocating for and pushing for for a long time. vladimir kara—murza is in prison serving a 25 year sentence for treason, because of his political stance, its peaceful politics, because he is an opponent of leathery putin and because of its outspoken criticism of the war in

ukraine. nothing else on the charge sheet against him that denotes him as a traitor. he says he is a patriot and that he simply wants a different and better russia. he is serving 25 years. his song in the boat and haven't been able to see him, night phone calls or any access to him. he has three children who had barely been able to speak to him since he was arrested in 2022. he is held mostly isolation and he has been an extremely difficult conditions. that is just one of the names that have been mentioned as a possible candidate for release in this prisoner exchange but every one of the stories i think is extremely strong and powerful and there are so many relatives in many places around the world, many of them outside russia now because of the little situation there who are waiting for news and other family i have spoken to have been tripping little bits of information. they barely know what is happening. they hadn't been told which country a playing might go to, they don't knows themselves where

they don't knows themselves where they are supposed to go to meet a relative who they believe is being freed, extremely nervous and worried but also extremely hopeful that this might finally be the moment they are reunited. ., .. might finally be the moment they are reunited. ., ~ , ., might finally be the moment they are reunited. ., ~' , ., ~ might finally be the moment they are reunited. ., ~ , ., ~ , reunited. thank you. with me is frank gardner— reunited. thank you. with me is frank gardner or _ reunited. thank you. with me is frank gardner or security - frank gardner or security correspondent. tell us what you know of the details of the exchange at the moment. in of the details of the exchange at the moment-— of the details of the exchange at the moment. ,., , ., the moment. in the bowl is a huge amount of— the moment. in the bowl is a huge amount of people, _ the moment. in the bowl is a huge amount of people, a _ the moment. in the bowl is a huge amount of people, a lot _ the moment. in the bowl is a huge amount of people, a lot of- the moment. in the bowl is a huge. amount of people, a lot of countries and a lot of behind—the—scenes work was up to six during for several reasons, notjust because of the large number of people involved, up to 24 large number of people involved, up to 2a possibly 26. that would make it the largest exchange of prisoners in this way since the end of the cold war. the most recent one perhaps was about ia people exchanged in 2010. it is perhaps was about 1a people exchanged in 2010. it is its ordinary as well because of the number of countries involved. turkish intelligence has talked about several other countries involved such as norway or slovenia,

that are included in this. indie involved such as norway or slovenia, that are included in this.— that are included in this. we are seeinu that are included in this. we are seeing reports _ that are included in this. we are seeing reports from _ that are included in this. we are seeing reports from the - that are included in this. we are seeing reports from the turkish | seeing reports from the turkish security source saying 26 prisoners from seven countries are being swapped. b, from seven countries are being swa ed. �* ., ., from seven countries are being swaued. �* ., ., ' swapped. a lot of different countries _ swapped. a lot of different countries and people. - swapped. a lot of different countries and people. i - swapped. a lot of different i countries and people. i think swapped. a lot of different - countries and people. i think the really extraordinary thing about this is that it is taking place against the backdrop of a full—scale war on europe's eastern borders where relations are at an absolute rock bottom between the west and russia. and yet despite that, intelligence agencies on both sides and other individuals, diplomats, have managed to maintain contact, have managed to maintain contact, have not let this drop. there has managed to be a confluence, meeting of interests. this is entirely transactional. let's not kid ourselves that this is russia getting soft or the west giving in. this is because both sides won something out of this. russia wants this guy but the critic of buck,

plus others, the west once people like evan gershkovich and paul whelan and others out of russian jails and they agreed they both got something to gain by this. but it is no coincidence we are seeing ankara airport there in previous pictures and that is where we are expecting at least some of the releases to take place, because turkey's intelligence agency mit is involved intelligence agency mit is involved in this. �* ., , ., in this. another line, this one bein: in this. another line, this one being attributed _ in this. another line, this one being attributed to _ in this. another line, this one being attributed to the - in this. another line, this one | being attributed to the turkish presidency saying ten prisoners including two minors being relocated to russia, 13 to germany and three to russia, 13 to germany and three to the us. what i am not aware of is who these minors might be. i to the us. what i am not aware of is who these minors might be.- who these minors might be. i don't know anything _ who these minors might be. i don't know anything about _ who these minors might be. i don't know anything about that. - who these minors might be. i don't know anything about that. we - who these minors might be. i don't| know anything about that. we know quite a bit about the main characters involved in this on both sides, so sarah raynsford referred to some of them earlier there but just to recap, the people that the west want out, in terms of profile

and dissenting order, would probably be evan gershkovich, the wall street journal reporter who was arrested after making a journalistic visit to after making a journalistic visit to a russian factory in several hundred miles east of moscow, he was arrested and accused and convicted of spying and given a 16 year sentence. he is a relatively young 32—year—old reporter, who he has, his family and taper employers and government all saying have nothing to do with espionage. he is simply a pawn in this. then you have paul whelan, former us marine, he has beenin whelan, former us marine, he has been in prison in russia since 2018 and russian prisons are not for the faint—hearted. you might have seen some of the pictures of it. they have a standard procedure whereby when prisoners are moved from one cell to another they have their arms put behind them, doubled over, with

their faces facing to the ground, and of course they have been put into drill alongside some really hardened criminals, murderers, rapists, as in many gels around the world, but it is not a place for the faint—hearted, plus you have an incredibly tough conditions which killed off alexei navalny earlier this year in february when he was sent to an arctic penal colony. then you also have other people that the west would like out of there. you have vladimir kara—murza, a british, russian british citizen, and, critic who is serving a 25 year sentence. there is rico cregan, a german citizen being held in belarus who were sentenced to death but that was and commuted by president lukashenko. there are others who are less well known. the people at russia wants out our vadim krasikov, we have mentioned him. he has been

convicted and given a life sentence ijy convicted and given a life sentence by a german court and this is quite a hot potato politically within germany because many people say we are opposing any kind of a deal that would let him off the hook, which german politician saying we just want to let someone come over to this country and shoot somebody in cold blood and let them go because it suits another country? but if he is indeed being released that is extraordinary bit of diplomatic manipulation to get him out. he is an fsb colonel who shot dead a chechen dissident in berlin in 2019. thank you. let's go to washington and we can speak to our correspondent will grant. hello to you. what more are you hearing from the administration there about this prisoner exchange? this the administration there about this prisoner exchange?— prisoner exchange? as you can imarine, prisoner exchange? as you can imagine, there _ prisoner exchange? as you can imagine, there are _ prisoner exchange? as you can imagine, there are some - prisoner exchange? as you can imagine, there are some quite | prisoner exchange? as you can - imagine, there are some quite tight

lips as people don't want to jinx the situation before it is fully happened. there is still some reservations about letting out too many details, but there is obviously, i wouldn't want to call it celebration, not that, because this is obviously a long—term goal for the biden administration, that looks like it is about to be achieved. that is close but celebration on that level. but there are so many factors involved, including those who haven't made it onto the list. including those who are being returned to russia. it is more of a transactional thing than a single direction coming this way to the united states. nevertheless, of course this is a huge shot in the arm for the baghdad restoration, for president biden himself, —— and the

harris campaign as she steps up for the democratic party. there will be moments of history. this is the biggest prisoner swap with the period since the cold war. this is hugely important in terms of the agencies involved and the complexity of pulling off this deal. but as i say, tight lips for now. there will be more to come. they will no doubt release statements and so are the families but not until it is actually completed. indie families but not until it is actually completed. families but not until it is actuall comleted. ~ , actually completed. we may be back with ou actually completed. we may be back with you very — actually completed. we may be back with you very soon _ actually completed. we may be back with you very soon in _ actually completed. we may be back with you very soon in washington - actually completed. we may be back| with you very soon in washington but for the moment likely. let's speak to sergey sanovich, hoover fellow at stanford university, who personally knows some of the russian political prosinners. thank you for your time. your thoughts with this developing story as we have heard in the last three minutes, lots of people not wanting to say too much until this is absolutely a done deal and the exchanges have happened. what absolutely a done deal and the exchanges have happened. what we can

see ressure exchanges have happened. what we can see pressure is — exchanges have happened. what we can see pressure is that _ exchanges have happened. what we can see pressure is that these _ exchanges have happened. what we can see pressure is that these people - see pressure is that these people loved russia. iam notjust see pressure is that these people loved russia. i am notjust talking about opposition politicians who were prepared to endure really harsh conditions, cold in the winter and heatin conditions, cold in the winter and heat in the summer and soldiery confinement for months on end, just for the sake of bringing change to the country. but even foreigners, people like evan gershkovich, refugees from the soviet union, invited parents to russia to show them the country has changed and different to what i remember from the 70s. these people loved russia. what putin is getting back in

exchange are spice and all sorts of shady characters. pm? exchange are spice and all sorts of shady characters.— exchange are spice and all sorts of shady characters. why do you think in this particular _ shady characters. why do you think in this particular circumstance - in this particular circumstance those channels of communication have remained open, very specifically, when communication on other fronts is really difficult? i when communication on other fronts is really difficult?— is really difficult? i think this idea that there _ is really difficult? i think this idea that there is _ is really difficult? i think this idea that there is no - is really difficult? i think this - idea that there is no communication is more a facade particularly on the common side, they are saying they are fighting this holy war with the west. and not interested in any kind of negotiations, whether it is uncontrolled with the united states. they are interested in negotiations with ukraine but only after ukraine seeds big parts of its territory. i think it is more of a facade. they are prepared to have deals if they

get these kind of people. putin said on live tv to tackle carson that this guy from berlin is a killer. this will be brought back as a hero. do you think what we are seeing here ultimately will make it more difficult forforeign nationals ultimately will make it more difficult for foreign nationals or people who hold joint citizenship between russia and another country, more difficult for them to live and work in russia because there is a danger that they may be sent to jail, imprisoned forfuture prisoner swap? i jail, imprisoned for future prisoner swa - ? .. , , jail, imprisoned for future prisoner swa? ~' , , ., swap? i think there is this idea that putin _ swap? i think there is this idea that putin is _ swap? i think there is this idea that putin is trying _ swap? i think there is this idea that putin is trying to - swap? i think there is this idea that putin is trying to recruit i swap? i think there is this idea l that putin is trying to recruit new spies or needs to get the current ones out of prison in europe into us. i don't think putin is particularly on spies. this is more his personal brand of never backing

down, abducting new people to have an innocent sort of exchange and the irony is this russian opposition leader, these are people who want to turn russia into something different, the only time any of the action it was an election in moscow, he tried to prepare himself for being in government like an executive. also he was writing this brilliant essay in present reminiscent of the best soviet prison literature, all sorts of characters, in the same prison as ordinary criminals, how these people ended up being a hero, an essay about someone who ended up going to ukraine to fight for russia and died. how the russian government was

sending people like that to fight this war of aggression in ukraine. he tried to really understand and changes country and unfortunately for the time being the best hope for them was discount of exchange and even after that putin will continue this tight grip on ratchet.- this tight grip on ratchet. thank ou ve this tight grip on ratchet. thank you very much _ this tight grip on ratchet. thank you very much to _ this tight grip on ratchet. thank you very much to talking - this tight grip on ratchet. thank you very much to talking to - this tight grip on ratchet. thankj you very much to talking to me. here are the latest reports quoting the turkish presidency as saying that 26 people from presence in seven different countries including the united states and russia have been exchanged in a major prisoner swap in ankara today. live pictures from the airport at ankara. this is one of the aircraft we believed to be involved in that prisoner swap.

the turkish presidency being quoted ijy the turkish presidency being quoted by reuters as saying a 26 individuals had also come from presence in germany, poland, slovenia, norway and belarus. those being swapped included wall street journal reporter evan gershkovich and former us marine paul whelan, who had both been imprisoned in russia. we were told one of the aircraft we were seeing earlier carried a russian fsb intelligence officer imprisoned in germany for a murder in 2019. it was taking him back to russia. now we are hearing from the presidency that prisoner swap which had been rumoured for days and became something stronger than a rumoura days and became something stronger than a rumour a little earlier today, we know now 26 people from

presence in seven different countries including the us and russia have been exchanged in a major prisoner swap in ankara. the other countries involved, germany, poland, slovenia, norway and belarus. we are hearing in that statement from the turkish presidency that was being swapped include the wall streetjournal reporter evan gershkovich, and also us remain paul whelan. let's speak to danielle gilbert, assistant professor of political science at northwestern university. she can talk about what happens around prisoner exchanges. thank you forjoining us today on the programme. iam forjoining us today on the programme. i am fascinated to get your insight on the political discussions that will have been going on behind the scenes to try to bring about this moment.— bring about this moment. today's news is enormous. _ bring about this moment. today's news is enormous. i— bring about this moment. today's

news is enormous. i know - bring about this moment. today's news is enormous. i know we - bring about this moment. today's news is enormous. i know we are| bring about this moment. today's - news is enormous. i know we are also awaiting cautiously and cautiously optimistic to see this exchange will indeed go through but if the news reports are correct there are at least seven countries that would be releasing prisoners from their jails. there would be very high—level diplomacy happening across allies and adversaries alike. these would be conversations happening behind—the—scenes from foreign ministries, the us state department, in the united states this is led by the special presidential on viper hostage affairs and high—level conversations on going for a very long time to figure out what is the mixture, what is the right combination of people, who else can be added to a deal that would ultimately result in the release today? this would ultimately result in the release today?— would ultimately result in the release toda ? �* , . ., , release today? as far as a country involved in — release today? as far as a country involved in this _ release today? as far as a country involved in this exchange - release today? as far as a country involved in this exchange are - involved in this exchange are concerned, some people not list of names would be absolute must haves.

with the united states they buy the administration has been talking for administration has been talking for a very long time about their absolute commitment in particular to bringing home to americans who have been wrongfully detained in russia, in the case of paul whelan a former marine who has been detained since 2018, who was not included in at least two prior prisoner swaps with russia. he has been a very high priority for the united states as was evan gershkovich, the wall streetjournal reporter arrested last march for simply doing his job of investigative recording in russia. both of those are very high profile and high priority americans who have been wrongfully detained in russia that the biden administration has been very committed to figuring out a way to bring them home. on the russian side to have been a lot of rumours particularly about that creswick up and we have been talking

early this morning about who was in prison in germany, are cagey —— fsb prison in germany, are cagey -- fsb agent murder prison in germany, are cagey —— fsb agent murder committed in germany. give us your insight into the logistics of actually getting all these prisoners from the various prisons in which they have been held to the places they need to be for that exchange to happen. we have heard for example that in the last few days and number of the prisoners being held in russia haven't been seenin being held in russia haven't been seen in their cells, so obviously there was movement going on in advance of this popular story began almost a break in the last few days as journalists around the world noticed as journalists around the world notice ., , noticed that there were interesting fli . ht noticed that there were interesting flight patterns _ noticed that there were interesting flight patterns that _ noticed that there were interesting flight patterns that some - noticed that there were interesting flight patterns that some of - noticed that there were interesting flight patterns that some of these | flight patterns that some of these aeroplanes that have been previously used in prisoner swaps were travelling to certain places that made people wonder if that was of value to some sort of grant coordinated swap. 0n the other hand

the lawyers representing some of these high—profile prisoners had not been able to reach their clients in recent days, which could be a sign of something ghastly or assign that they can't be reached because they are being removed or relocated in anticipation of some sort of swap. pieces started to come together and leading up to today's announcement from the abiodun administration that they had agreed to swap. that would be relocating all of these prisoners and getting everyone together on these planes, bringing them to a neutral third party location in this case, it sounds like it would be turkey, where the swap will hopefully take place with the prisoners crossing the tarmac and travelling on to safety.— prisoners crossing the tarmac and travelling on to safety. thank you. let's travelling on to safety. thank you. let's return _ travelling on to safety. thank you.

let's return to _ travelling on to safety. thank you. let's return to our _ travelling on to safety. thank you. let's return to our eastern - travelling on to safety. thank you. let's return to our eastern europe| let's return to our eastern europe correspondent sarah raynsford in berlin with some more details. is that more detail on who is on the list of 26 prisoners?— that more detail on who is on the list of 26 prisoners? looking at the list of 26 prisoners? looking at the list and information _ list of 26 prisoners? looking at the list and information released - list of 26 prisoners? looking at the list and information released by . list and information released by turkish intelligence, the one name thatjumped out on that list that is new is a confirmed name of ilia yashin who is a well—known political activist and opposition activist inside russia and has been for many years, relatively young in his 30s, perhaps early a0s. he was mentioned by one of your previous guest but that has now been confirmed that he is among those being released. i have known ilia yashin as an interviewee and politician for some years. he is a very passionate individual about his politics. he is a man who i remember reading that went the full—scale invasion of ukraine began, he published a post saying he had gone to the dentist to

get his teeth checked because he knew he was going to get arrested because he would speak out against the war in ukraine and at the dentist in prison were rubbish. he had got that sorted and he was then arrested. he was charged with spreading bulls information about the war in ukraine. what he actually did was a youtube stream in which he discussed very openly the killing of civilians by the russian military outside kyiv. he showed video including from the bbc about what had happened on the ground. the russian authorities have always denied there was any russian war crimes or suggestion of war crimes in future. ilia yashin made clear the evidence and that was the evidence against him that was produced in court. i remember reading the transcript of his last speech he made in court and he said then that despite his sentence and i think it was around seven years that

he got for denouncing the