hello, i'm christian fraser.

terror attacks and two of his accomplices have agreed a plea deal. and two of his co—defendants, have reached a plea deal with the us government. khalid sheikh mohammed and the other two men — walid bin attash and mustafa al—hawsawi — will plead guilty to all of the charged offences, including the murder of the 2,976 people who died that day, in return for a life sentence. they will be spared the death penalty. all three have been held since their arrest, without trial, at the us military detention facility in guantanamo bay, cuba. the process was complicated by a law passed by congress in 2015 that prevented the us government from moving the detainees to the continental united states, even for criminal trial. it has been well documented

that the men had been moved through black sites, and had been interrogated using methods like waterboarding, which is a form of torture. last night donald trump's running mate, jd vance condemned the deal that has been done. now, as someone who enlisted in the marines to serve after 9/11, that is ridiculous but it's not surprising. now, just think about the point that we've gotten to. joe biden and kamala harris have weaponised the department ofjustice to go after their political opponents, but they're cutting a sweetheart deal with 9/11 terrorists. we need a president who kills terrorists, not negotiate with them. brian, in response, the white house said it was good that after more than 20 years that would at last be some accountability for the 9—11 attacks, somejustice some accountability for the 9—11 attacks, some justice for the victims and survivors of those crimes, but it is been a long time

coming. crimes, but it is been a long time cominu. ,, ., coming. the us government here decision versus _ coming. the us government here decision versust _ coming. the us government here decision versust vance - coming. the us government here | decision versust vance reaction, decision versusjd vance reaction, is a classic decision versusjd vance reaction, is a campaign trail, jd vance, who the campaign trail, jd vance, who can say whatever he wants and echo americans gut feelings and reactions versus the reality, the ugly reality of governing and running a country and government and trying to tie up these horrible loose ends. as a nation, i think there is some quiet shame in america associated with one bay and this 20 year plus rdc, that takes nothing away from september 11, but as it becomes history and memories of the attacks fade, there is a bit of a shame associated with the torture methods —— and the attack sites and the idea of guantanamo as this place people stuck in between, not actually facing american justice, stuck in between, not actually facing americanjustice, so stuck in between, not actually facing american justice, so this measure of accountability, i think it's like the withdrawal from

afghanistan by the biden administration. it is painful and ugly, it can be embarrassing and used against the administration politically, but a necessary move by the biden administration.— the biden administration. nathalie, and menacing _ the biden administration. nathalie, and menacing international- the biden administration. nathalie, and menacing international but - the biden administration. nathalie, and menacing international but of l and menacing international but of the statement was this had been reported, saying that the biden administration must take all necessary measures now to make for a programme of state sanctioned and forced disappearance, torture and other in treatment never be perpetrated by the united states again. i think that has been the finding of the us senate in its own investigation, but 23 years without trial, still at the trial, a plea deal, it is a dark period in americanjustice. it deal, it is a dark period in american justice.- deal, it is a dark period in american justice. deal, it is a dark period in american 'ustice. , ., american 'ustice. it is, and let me --erhas americanjustice. it is, and let me perhaps start _ americanjustice. it is, and let me perhaps start off _ americanjustice. it is, and let me perhaps start off by _ americanjustice. it is, and let me perhaps start off by saying - perhaps start off by saying the obvious — perhaps start off by saying the obvious european thing to say that which _ obvious european thing to say that which is _ obvious european thing to say that which is the fact that these people will not _ which is the fact that these people will not receive a death penalty but

a sentence — will not receive a death penalty but a sentence itself, in and of itself is a good — a sentence itself, in and of itself is a good thing. i think the other few things — is a good thing. i think the other few things to point out is the way in which — few things to point out is the way in which this makes some sense the pass resurface and hence the story of guantanamo and torture but it does _ of guantanamo and torture but it does so — of guantanamo and torture but it does so in — of guantanamo and torture but it does so in a political context in the united states which we know has become _ the united states which we know has become deeply polarised, and those remarks _ become deeply polarised, and those remarks byjudy finds highlight that polarisation and highlights the increasing politicisation and weaponisation ofjustice within this context— weaponisation ofjustice within this context the united states is in, so it isjust _ context the united states is in, so it isjust one — context the united states is in, so it isjust one of the stories where, on the _ it isjust one of the stories where, on the one — it isjust one of the stories where, on the one hand you see the value of what had _ on the one hand you see the value of what had been reached, but precisely that value _ what had been reached, but precisely that value and thinking, lots of nasty— that value and thinking, lots of nasty things in the past resurface in a political context which i become _ in a political context which i become far more fraught than it ties back then _ become far more fraught than it ties back then i— become far more fraught than it ties back then. ., .

become far more fraught than it ties back then. ~ ., ., ,., ., back then. i think we are about to meet contact _ back then. i think we are about to meet contact with _ back then. i think we are about to meet contact with carol _ back then. i think we are about to l meet contact with carol rosenberg, who was thought —— don't reporting for the new york times on guantanamo bay, carol can you hear me? lovely to have you with us. you followed this closely, i am intrigued to find out how long this negotiation has taken. , ., ., , taken. there been no gear shift and on and off for— taken. there been no gear shift and on and off for 27 _ taken. there been no gear shift and on and off for 27 months. they - taken. there been no gear shift and | on and off for 27 months. they came out of— on and off for 27 months. they came out of the _ on and off for 27 months. they came out of the coronavirus _ on and off for 27 months. they came out of the coronavirus shutdown - on and off for 27 months. they came out of the coronavirus shutdown of l out of the coronavirus shutdown of the courts — out of the coronavirus shutdown of the courts and _ out of the coronavirus shutdown of the courts and immediately- out of the coronavirus shutdown of the courts and immediately went l out of the coronavirus shutdown of. the courts and immediately went into negotiations — the courts and immediately went into negotiations. they— the courts and immediately went into negotiations. they broke _ the courts and immediately went into negotiations. they broke down - negotiations. they broke down because — negotiations. they broke down because the _ negotiations. they broke down because the white _ negotiations. they broke down because the white house, - negotiations. they broke down because the white house, the| negotiations. they broke down - because the white house, the biden administration, _ because the white house, the biden administration, chose _ because the white house, the biden administration, chose not _ because the white house, the biden administration, chose not to - because the white house, the biden administration, chose not to sign- administration, chose not to sign off on— administration, chose not to sign off on certain _ administration, chose not to sign off on certain conditions, - administration, chose not to sign off on certain conditions, but - administration, chose not to sign off on certain conditions, but the j off on certain conditions, but the white _ off on certain conditions, but the white house _ off on certain conditions, but the white house tossed _ off on certain conditions, but the white house tossed it _ off on certain conditions, but the white house tossed it back- off on certain conditions, but the white house tossed it back overl off on certain conditions, but the i white house tossed it back over to the pentagon. _ white house tossed it back over to the pentagon, and _ white house tossed it back over to the pentagon, and the _ white house tossed it back over toi the pentagon, and the negotiations continued. — the pentagon, and the negotiations continued. or— the pentagon, and the negotiations continued, orwhy_ the pentagon, and the negotiations continued, or why now? _ the pentagon, and the negotiations continued, or why now? yes, - the pentagon, and the negotiations continued, or why now?— the pentagon, and the negotiations continued, or why now? yes, why now? there is no _ continued, or why now? yes, why now? there is no precise _ continued, or why now? yes, why now? there is no precise explanation - continued, or why now? yes, why now? there is no precise explanation but - there is no precise explanation but i there is no precise explanation but i can— there is no precise explanation but i can give _ there is no precise explanation but i can give a — there is no precise explanation but i can give a few— there is no precise explanation but i can give a few theories, - there is no precise explanation but i can give a few theories, they- i can give a few theories, they want to get— i can give a few theories, they want to get it _ i can give a few theories, they want to get it done — i can give a few theories, they want to get it done before _ i can give a few theories, they want to get it done before the _ i can give a few theories, they want to get it done before the next - to get it done before the next president— to get it done before the next president comes _

to get it done before the next president comes into- to get it done before the next president comes into office i to get it done before the next president comes into office isj to get it done before the next - president comes into office is one possibility. — president comes into office is one possibility. and _ president comes into office is one possibility, and of— president comes into office is one possibility, and of the _ president comes into office is one possibility, and of the political- possibility, and of the political season — possibility, and of the political season. there _ possibility, and of the political season. there has— possibility, and of the political season. there has been- possibility, and of the political. season. there has been ongoing pretrial— season. there has been ongoing pretrial hearings— season. there has been ongoing pretrial hearings in _ season. there has been ongoing pretrial hearings in the - season. there has been ongoing pretrial hearings in the case, - season. there has been ongoingl pretrial hearings in the case, and the judge — pretrial hearings in the case, and the judge is— pretrial hearings in the case, and the judge is poised _ pretrial hearings in the case, and the judge is poised to _ pretrial hearings in the case, and the judge is poised to rule, - pretrial hearings in the case, and the judge is poised to rule, i- pretrial hearings in the case, and l the judge is poised to rule, i would say, the judge is poised to rule, i would say. in _ the judge is poised to rule, i would say. in the — the judge is poised to rule, i would say. in the next _ the judge is poised to rule, i would say, in the next few— the judge is poised to rule, i would say, in the next few months - the judge is poised to rule, i would say, in the next few months on - the judge is poised to rule, i would say, in the next few months on the admissibility— say, in the next few months on the admissibility of— say, in the next few months on the admissibility of key— say, in the next few months on the admissibility of key evidence - admissibility of key evidence indicates. _ admissibility of key evidence indicates, whether— admissibility of key evidence indicates, whether it - admissibility of key evidence indicates, whether it is - indicates, whether it is contaminated - indicates, whether it is contaminated by- indicates, whether it is . contaminated by torture, indicates, whether it is - contaminated by torture, and indicates, whether it is _ contaminated by torture, and the judge _ contaminated by torture, and the judge in— contaminated by torture, and the judge in another— contaminated by torture, and the judge in another case _ contaminated by torture, and the judge in another case throughoutj judge in another case throughout these _ judge in another case throughout these confessions, _ judge in another case throughout these confessions, and _ judge in another case throughout these confessions, and if- judge in another case throughout these confessions, and if the - these confessions, and if the government— these confessions, and if the government were _ these confessions, and if the government were to - these confessions, and if the government were to lose - these confessions, and if the . government were to lose those confessions. _ government were to lose those confessions, they— government were to lose those confessions, they would - government were to lose those confessions, they would be - government were to lose those i confessions, they would be having government were to lose those - confessions, they would be having a hard time _ confessions, they would be having a hard time mounting _ confessions, they would be having a hard time mounting it— confessions, they would be having a hard time mounting it case - confessions, they would be having a hard time mounting it case because| hard time mounting it case because the them _ hard time mounting it case because the them around _ hard time mounting it case because the them around them, _ hard time mounting it case because the them around them, so - hard time mounting it case because the them around them, so various. the them around them, so various moments — the them around them, so various moments of— the them around them, so various moments of truth _ the them around them, so various moments of truth were _ the them around them, so various moments of truth were coming. moments of truth were coming together. — moments of truth were coming together. and _ moments of truth were coming together, and it _ moments of truth were coming together, and it is _ moments of truth were coming together, and it is been - moments of truth were coming together, and it is been 12- moments of truth were coming . together, and it is been 12 years, and memories— together, and it is been 12 years, and memories are _ together, and it is been 12 years, and memories are fading, - together, and it is been 12 years, j and memories are fading, people together, and it is been 12 years, - and memories are fading, people are dying, _ and memories are fading, people are dying. and _ and memories are fading, people are dying, and frustration _ and memories are fading, people are dying, and frustration has— and memories are fading, people are dying, and frustration has mounted, i dying, and frustration has mounted, and i_ dying, and frustration has mounted, and i think— dying, and frustration has mounted, and i think while _ dying, and frustration has mounted, and i think while not— dying, and frustration has mounted, and i think while not every— dying, and frustration has mounted, and i think while not every family i and i think while not every family member— and i think while not every family member and _ and i think while not every family memberand victim _ and i think while not every family member and victim of— and i think while not every family member and victim of 9/11 - and i think while not every family member and victim of 9/11 is - member and victim of 9/11 is pleased with this _ member and victim of 9/11 is pleased with this at _ member and victim of 9/11 is pleased with this at all, _ member and victim of 9/11 is pleased with this at all, there _ member and victim of 9/11 is pleased with this at all, there is _ member and victim of 9/11 is pleased with this at all, there is great - with this at all, there is great opposition— with this at all, there is great opposition to _ with this at all, there is great opposition to it, _ with this at all, there is great opposition to it, some - with this at all, there is great opposition to it, some are . with this at all, there is great - opposition to it, some are relieved that this _ opposition to it, some are relieved that this would _ opposition to it, some are relieved that this would not _ opposition to it, some are relieved that this would not continue - opposition to it, some are relieved that this would not continue for. opposition to it, some are relievedl that this would not continue for the next 10-20 — that this would not continue for the next 10—20 years. _ that this would not continue for the next 10—20 years. there _ that this would not continue for the next 10—20 years. there was - that this would not continue for the next 10—20 years. there was a - next 10—20 years. there was a realisation — next 10—20 years. there was a realisation that— next 10—20 years. there was a realisation that if— next 10—20 years. there was a realisation that if they - next 10—20 years. there was a realisation that if they made . next 10—20 years. there was a realisation that if they made itj next 10—20 years. there was a . realisation that if they made it to trial and — realisation that if they made it to trial and if— realisation that if they made it to trial and if they _ realisation that if they made it to trial and if they got a _ realisation that if they made it to trial and if they got a death - trial and if they got a death penalty. _ trial and if they got a death penalty. it— trial and if they got a death penalty, it would _ trial and if they got a death penalty, it would be - trial and if they got a death penalty, it would be underl trial and if they got a death -

penalty, it would be under appeal for years— penalty, it would be under appeal for years and _ penalty, it would be under appeal for years and years _ penalty, it would be under appeal for years and years through - penalty, it would be under appeal for years and years through the l for years and years through the military— for years and years through the military courts _ for years and years through the military courts and _ for years and years through the military courts and then - for years and years through the military courts and then the - military courts and then the civilian _ military courts and then the civilian courts, _ military courts and then the civilian courts, possibly- military courts and then the civilian courts, possibly the| civilian courts, possibly the supreme _ civilian courts, possibly the supreme court, _ civilian courts, possibly the supreme court, and - civilian courts, possibly the supreme court, and so- civilian courts, possibly the i supreme court, and so they civilian courts, possibly the - supreme court, and so they would civilian courts, possibly the _ supreme court, and so they would not be what _ supreme court, and so they would not be what they— supreme court, and so they would not be what they call— supreme court, and so they would not be what they call the _ supreme court, and so they would not be what they call the judicial _ be what they call the judicial finality _ be what they call the judicial finality ls— be what they call the 'udicial finali . . . be what they call the 'udicial finali . , , , ., finality. is this the beginning of the end for— finality. is this the beginning of the end for guantanamo - finality. is this the beginning of the end for guantanamo bay? | finality. is this the beginning of| the end for guantanamo bay? it finality. is this the beginning of. the end for guantanamo bay? it is the end for guantanamo bay? it is the beginning _ the end for guantanamo bay? it is the beginning of and for people who still remember— the beginning of and for people who still remember guantanamo - the beginning of and for people who still remember guantanamo bay. i the beginning of and for people who. still remember guantanamo bay. are 30 printers— still remember guantanamo bay. are 30 printers there _ still remember guantanamo bay. are 30 printers there is _ still remember guantanamo bay. are 30 printers there is no, _ still remember guantanamo bay. are 30 printers there is no, half- still remember guantanamo bay. are 30 printers there is no, half were - 30 printers there is no, half were clear— 30 printers there is no, half were clear to _ 30 printers there is no, half were clear to be — 30 printers there is no, half were clear to be cancer— 30 printers there is no, half were clear to be cancer —— _ 30 printers there is no, half were l clear to be cancer —— transferred to countries _ clear to be cancer —— transferred to countries that — clear to be cancer —— transferred to countries that would _ clear to be cancer —— transferred to countries that would take - clear to be cancer —— transferred to countries that would take them, i clear to be cancer —— transferred tol countries that would take them, but people _ countries that would take them, but people like — countries that would take them, but people like the _ countries that would take them, but people like the accused _ countries that would take them, but people like the accused and - countries that would take them, but people like the accused and maybe i people like the accused and maybe soon to _ people like the accused and maybe soon to be — people like the accused and maybe soon to be admitted _ people like the accused and maybe soon to be admitted mastermind . people like the accused and maybe | soon to be admitted mastermind of the 9m _ soon to be admitted mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, _ soon to be admitted mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, will— soon to be admitted mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, will be _ soon to be admitted mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, will be senses - the 9/11 attacks, will be senses still likely— the 9/11 attacks, will be senses still likely life _ the 9/11 attacks, will be senses still likely life without - still likely life without possibility _ still likely life without possibility of - still likely life without possibility of release, still likely life without i possibility of release, so still likely life without - possibility of release, so there still likely life without _ possibility of release, so there is a possibility— possibility of release, so there is a possibility that _ possibility of release, so there is a possibility that once _ possibility of release, so there isi a possibility that once automobile it becomes — a possibility that once automobile it becomes the... _ a possibility that once automobile it becomes the... on _ a possibility that once automobile it becomes the... on the - a possibility that once automobile it becomes the... on the war- a possibility that once automobile it becomes the... on the war on i it becomes the... on the war on terror. _ it becomes the... on the war on terror. which _ it becomes the... on the war on terror, which for— it becomes the... on the war on terror, which for the _ it becomes the... on the war on terror, which for the last - it becomes the... on the war on i terror, which for the last detainee to the _ terror, which for the last detainee to the guy— terror, which for the last detainee to the guy to— terror, which for the last detainee to the guy to stop _ terror, which for the last detainee to the guy to stop interesting - terror, which for the last detainee to the guy to stop interesting to l to the guy to stop interesting to -et to the guy to stop interesting to get your— to the guy to stop interesting to get your perspective, _ to the guy to stop interesting to get your perspective, carol - get your perspective, carol rosenberg. _ get your perspective, carol rosenberg, thank- get your perspective, carol rosenberg, thank you - get your perspective, carol rosenberg, thank you for. get your perspective, carol - rosenberg, thank you for coming get your perspective, carol _ rosenberg, thank you for coming on. last year 34—year—old hannah neeleman was crowned mrs american at a mega casino in las vegas. she was on stage in a swimsuit, 5 inch heels, spray—tanned —

she was also 12 days postpartum. she had just given birth to her eighth child in an upstairs bedroom of their rural home in utah, without drugs. she had kept herself fit, did some weightlifting before her other children woke up. she had ice baths in the irrigation ditches of the farm where she spends her days milking cows, rearing children, baking and preparing dinners for her billionaire husband daniel neeleman. his father founded several commercial airline including jet blue. hannah is a tradwife. an internet phenomenon. one of a band of women who have rejected more modern gender roles for the traditional existence of wife, mother, homemaker — and who then promote that online, to millions of followers.

when we started the farm, i was on swept up the beauty of learning to make food from scratch. it makes sense why i soon fell into love with the family family milk cow. i was making my own butter, cheese, ice cream and yoghurt. as i began to explore this world to cook an invent, i needed a way to share these products with more than just friends and family. joining us now is megan agnew, senior features writer from the sunday times. she has written the viral article about "tradwife queen". welcome to the programme. so much interest in the pc or written, she bakes sourdough from scratch, gives birth without pain relief, competes in page just days after giving birth, why does she do it all? that was the reason _ birth, why does she do it all? that was the reason why _ birth, why does she do it all? that was the reason why i want to go, and ithink— was the reason why i want to go, and i think when— was the reason why i want to go, and i think when i— was the reason why i want to go, and i think when i spoke _ was the reason why i want to go, and i think when i spoke to _ was the reason why i want to go, and i think when i spoke to her— was the reason why i want to go, and i think when i spoke to her over- was the reason why i want to go, and i think when i spoke to her over the l i think when i spoke to her over the period of— i think when i spoke to her over the period of the — i think when i spoke to her over the period of the day. _ i think when i spoke to her over the period of the day, she _ i think when i spoke to her over the period of the day, she said that - i think when i spoke to her over the period of the day, she said that it. period of the day, she said that it was implicit — period of the day, she said that it was implicit within _ period of the day, she said that it was implicit within her, _ period of the day, she said that it was implicit within her, that - was implicit within her, that it felt natural _ was implicit within her, that it felt natural to— was implicit within her, that it felt natural to her, _ was implicit within her, that it felt natural to her, and - was implicit within her, that it felt natural to her, and it - was implicit within her, that it

felt natural to her, and it felti felt natural to her, and it felt like the — felt natural to her, and it felt like the thing _ felt natural to her, and it felt like the thing she _ felt natural to her, and it felt like the thing she wanted - felt natural to her, and it felt like the thing she wanted toi felt natural to her, and it felt i like the thing she wanted to do, felt natural to her, and it felt - like the thing she wanted to do, but she of— like the thing she wanted to do, but she of course — like the thing she wanted to do, but she of course pushes _ like the thing she wanted to do, but she of course pushes herself- like the thing she wanted to do, but she of course pushes herself reallyl she of course pushes herself really hard in _ she of course pushes herself really hard in order— she of course pushes herself really hard in order to _ she of course pushes herself really hard in order to do _ she of course pushes herself really hard in order to do all— she of course pushes herself really hard in order to do all of— she of course pushes herself really hard in order to do all of these - hard in order to do all of these things — hard in order to do all of these things she _ hard in order to do all of these things. she has— hard in order to do all of these things. she has eight childrenl hard in order to do all of these . things. she has eight children and no childcare. _ things. she has eight children and no childcare, and _ things. she has eight children and no childcare, and they— things. she has eight children and no childcare, and they do - things. she has eight children and i no childcare, and they do genuinely live this _ no childcare, and they do genuinely live this while _ no childcare, and they do genuinely live this while existence _ no childcare, and they do genuinely live this while existence where - no childcare, and they do genuinely live this while existence where shel live this while existence where she cooks— live this while existence where she cooks everything _ live this while existence where she cooks everything from _ live this while existence where she cooks everything from scratch, - live this while existence where she cooks everything from scratch, her husband _ cooks everything from scratch, her husband is — cooks everything from scratch, her husband is up _ cooks everything from scratch, her husband is up on _ cooks everything from scratch, her husband is up on the _ cooks everything from scratch, her husband is up on the farm, - cooks everything from scratch, her husband is up on the farm, and - husband is up on the farm, and obviously— husband is up on the farm, and obviously it _ husband is up on the farm, and obviously it is _ husband is up on the farm, and obviously it is all— husband is up on the farm, and obviously it is all on _ husband is up on the farm, and obviously it is all on social - husband is up on the farm, and i obviously it is all on social media. she has— obviously it is all on social media. she has a — obviously it is all on social media. she has a huge _ obviously it is all on social media. she has a huge following - obviously it is all on social media. she has a huge following online, i she has a huge following online, which for me to bring certain responsibilities with it. that she has any concern that she is the kind of role model that is lots of women these days would not want to emulate, might even feel pressure to emanate? i emulate, might even feel pressure to emanate? . . emulate, might even feel pressure to emanate? ., , , emanate? i was interested when we soke, emanate? i was interested when we spoke. she — emanate? i was interested when we spoke. she was _ emanate? i was interested when we spoke, she was really _ emanate? i was interested when we spoke, she was really enthusiastic. spoke, she was really enthusiastic about— spoke, she was really enthusiastic about promoting _ spoke, she was really enthusiastic about promoting this _ spoke, she was really enthusiastic about promoting this sort - spoke, she was really enthusiastic about promoting this sort of - about promoting this sort of full-time _ about promoting this sort of full—time commitment- about promoting this sort of full—time commitment to i about promoting this sort of - full—time commitment to motherhood and making _ full—time commitment to motherhood and making food — full—time commitment to motherhood and making food for— full—time commitment to motherhood and making food for your _ full—time commitment to motherhood and making food for your family. - full—time commitment to motherhood and making food for your family. shel and making food for your family. she said that. _ and making food for your family. she said that, especially _ and making food for your family. she said that, especially recently, - said that, especially recently, women — said that, especially recently, women had _ said that, especially recently, women had been _ said that, especially recently, women had been made - said that, especially recently, women had been made to- said that, especially recently, | women had been made to feel said that, especially recently, - women had been made to feel bad,

they lost— women had been made to feel bad, they lost their — women had been made to feel bad, they lost their identity _ women had been made to feel bad, they lost their identity if _ women had been made to feel bad, they lost their identity if they- they lost their identity if they had chosen— they lost their identity if they had chosen to — they lost their identity if they had chosen to do _ they lost their identity if they had chosen to do that, _ they lost their identity if they had chosen to do that, and _ they lost their identity if they had chosen to do that, and she sort l they lost their identity if they hadl chosen to do that, and she sort of wants— chosen to do that, and she sort of wants to _ chosen to do that, and she sort of wants to prove _ chosen to do that, and she sort of wants to prove that _ chosen to do that, and she sort of wants to prove that that _ chosen to do that, and she sort of wants to prove that that is - chosen to do that, and she sort of wants to prove that that is not - chosen to do that, and she sort ofj wants to prove that that is not the case _ wants to prove that that is not the case as— wants to prove that that is not the case as to — wants to prove that that is not the case. as to whether— wants to prove that that is not the case. as to whether it _ wants to prove that that is not the case. as to whether it is _ wants to prove that that is not the l case. as to whether it is dangerous or not. _ case. as to whether it is dangerous or not. i_ case. as to whether it is dangerous or not. idon't— case. as to whether it is dangerous or not, i don't necessarily- or not, i don't necessarily think that— or not, i don't necessarily think that she — or not, i don't necessarily think that she sees _ or not, i don't necessarily think that she sees that _ or not, i don't necessarily think that she sees that as _ or not, i don't necessarily think that she sees that as being - or not, i don't necessarily think that she sees that as being her| that she sees that as being her responsibility, _ that she sees that as being her responsibility, she _ that she sees that as being her responsibility, she sort - that she sees that as being her responsibility, she sort of- that she sees that as being her responsibility, she sort of lives her life — responsibility, she sort of lives her life on— responsibility, she sort of lives her life on nine, _ responsibility, she sort of lives her life on nine, and _ responsibility, she sort of lives her life on nine, and she - responsibility, she sort of lives| her life on nine, and she shows responsibility, she sort of lives - her life on nine, and she shows the people _ her life on nine, and she shows the people -- — her life on nine, and she shows the people -- online _ her life on nine, and she shows the peeple -- online-— people -- online. that bit interesting _ people -- online. that bit interesting to _ people -- online. that bit interesting to why - people -- online. that bit interesting to why it - people -- online. that bit interesting to why it is - people -- online. that bit - interesting to why it is popular, i just wonder that people don't want to be her but there are lots of women who had said in the past that the idea of having it all is the girl boss era, that they don't have enough support to do that in raising families if they choose, so do they live vicariously through her? i think a lot of it is that and a lot of it— think a lot of it is that and a lot of it is women _ think a lot of it is that and a lot of it is women feeling - think a lot of it is that and a lot. of it is women feeling crowded out of it is women feeling crowded out of these _ of it is women feeling crowded out of these sort — of it is women feeling crowded out of these sort of _ of it is women feeling crowded out of these sort of online _ of it is women feeling crowded out of these sort of online space - of it is women feeling crowded out of these sort of online space to - of it is women feeling crowded out of these sort of online space to be| of these sort of online space to be able to— of these sort of online space to be able to talk— of these sort of online space to be able to talk about _ of these sort of online space to be able to talk about the _ of these sort of online space to be able to talk about the joys - of these sort of online space to be able to talk about the joys and - able to talk about the joys and glorious — able to talk about the joys and glorious parts _ able to talk about the joys and glorious parts of _ able to talk about the joys and glorious parts of motherhood, | glorious parts of motherhood, particularly _ glorious parts of motherhood, particularly in _ glorious parts of motherhood, particularly in the _ glorious parts of motherhood, particularly in the last - glorious parts of motherhood, particularly in the last five -

glorious parts of motherhood, l particularly in the last five years or so. _ particularly in the last five years or so. which. _ particularly in the last five years or so, which, for— particularly in the last five years or so, which, for the _ particularly in the last five years or so, which, for the better, - particularly in the last five years or so, which, forthe better, we| or so, which, for the better, we have _ or so, which, for the better, we have become _ or so, which, for the better, we have become much— or so, which, for the better, we have become much more - or so, which, for the better, we have become much more free l or so, which, for the better, we - have become much more free about sin the bits— have become much more free about sin the bits that _ have become much more free about sin the bits that are — have become much more free about sin the bits that are quite _ have become much more free about sin the bits that are quite rubbish - have become much more free about sin the bits that are quite rubbish or- the bits that are quite rubbish or boring _ the bits that are quite rubbish or boring or— the bits that are quite rubbish or boring or difficult. _ the bits that are quite rubbish or boring or difficult. so— the bits that are quite rubbish or boring or difficult. so it - the bits that are quite rubbish or boring or difficult. so it sort of. boring or difficult. so it sort of gives— boring or difficult. so it sort of gives other— boring or difficult. so it sort of gives other women _ boring or difficult. so it sort of gives other women the - boring or difficult. so it sort of gives other women the abilityl boring or difficult. so it sort of. gives other women the ability to boring or difficult. so it sort of- gives other women the ability to do that. _ gives other women the ability to do that. i_ gives other women the ability to do that. i think. — gives other women the ability to do that, i think, and _ gives other women the ability to do that, i think, and also _ gives other women the ability to do that, i think, and also it— gives other women the ability to do that, i think, and also it is- gives other women the ability to do that, i think, and also it isjust - that, i think, and also it isjust really— that, i think, and also it isjust really common. _ that, i think, and also it isjust really common. if— that, i think, and also it isjust really common. if you - that, i think, and also it isjust really common. if you look - that, i think, and also it isjust really common. if you look at i that, i think, and also it isjustl really common. if you look at a that, i think, and also it isjust - really common. if you look at a lot of the _ really common. if you look at a lot of the photos— really common. if you look at a lot of the photos and _ really common. if you look at a lot of the photos and videos, - really common. if you look at a lot of the photos and videos, and - really common. if you look at a lot of the photos and videos, and i- really common. if you look at a lot . of the photos and videos, and i went there. _ of the photos and videos, and i went there. it's _ of the photos and videos, and i went there, it's these _ of the photos and videos, and i went there, it's these enormous - of the photos and videos, and i went there, it's these enormous guys, - of the photos and videos, and i wentl there, it's these enormous guys, and these _ there, it's these enormous guys, and these lovely — there, it's these enormous guys, and these lovely little _ there, it's these enormous guys, and these lovely little children— there, it's these enormous guys, and these lovely little children who - these lovely little children who don't _ these lovely little children who don't use — these lovely little children who don't use ipads, _ these lovely little children who don't use ipads, and _ these lovely little children who don't use ipads, and when - these lovely little children who don't use ipads, and when you| these lovely little children who - don't use ipads, and when you are on your commutes — don't use ipads, and when you are on your commutes home. _ don't use ipads, and when you are on your commutes home. she _ don't use ipads, and when you are on your commutes home.— don't use ipads, and when you are on your commutes home. she is married to a billionaire _ your commutes home. she is married to a billionaire isn't _ your commutes home. she is married to a billionaire isn't she, _ your commutes home. she is married to a billionaire isn't she, not - to a billionaire isn't she, not everyone follow that we have life and have a ruralfarm to bake on? let me bring in first michael what i am sure has read the piece, is it an imploring new model of womanhood or an hammer blow forfeminism? you imploring new model of womanhood or an hammer blow for feminism? you are referrin: to an hammer blow for feminism? you are referring to the — an hammer blow for feminism? you are referring to the fact _ an hammer blow for feminism? you are referring to the fact that _ an hammer blow for feminism? you are referring to the fact that women - referring to the fact that women can't _ referring to the fact that women can't have — referring to the fact that women can't have it all, in a sense, this is a _

can't have it all, in a sense, this is a story— can't have it all, in a sense, this is a story that validates that theory _ is a story that validates that theory. whereas women cannot have it all argument was presented as a suit -- basically— all argument was presented as a suit —— basically to make an argument forcing _ —— basically to make an argument forcing what if the system has to change _ forcing what if the system has to change so — forcing what if the system has to change so that actually women can have it _ change so that actually women can have it all— change so that actually women can have it all or at least can have the same _ have it all or at least can have the same as— have it all or at least can have the same as what men have? in a sense, this is— same as what men have? in a sense, this isan— same as what men have? in a sense, this is an admission of that. what's interesting — this is an admission of that. what's interesting about it is that whereas, in a sense, being progressive or forward—looking was the cool _ progressive or forward—looking was the cool thing to do, now what we are seeing. — the cool thing to do, now what we are seeing, and i think it applies inthis. — are seeing, and i think it applies inthis. we— are seeing, and i think it applies in this, we are cementing other spares — in this, we are cementing other spares as— in this, we are cementing other spares as well, social conservatism the way— spares as well, social conservatism the way in — spares as well, social conservatism the way in which technology in particular, social media is used, it essentially— particular, social media is used, it essentially presents a vision that looks— essentially presents a vision that looks backwards as the forward looking — looks backwards as the forward looking thing. whether it's dangerous or not fans of the

perspective you're coming from, sol would _ perspective you're coming from, sol would consider it to be very dangerous, but it depends where you are coming _ dangerous, but it depends where you are coming at it from.— are coming at it from. there is one woman who _ are coming at it from. there is one woman who does _ are coming at it from. there is one woman who does it _ are coming at it from. there is one woman who does it in _ are coming at it from. there is one woman who does it in europe - are coming at it from. there is one woman who does it in europe all, i woman who does it in europe all, that's a ursula von der leyen, she has seven children. she that's a ursula von der leyen, she has seven children.— has seven children. she has seven children, has seven children. she has seven children. she _ has seven children. she has seven children, she comes _ has seven children. she has seven children, she comes from - has seven children. she has seven children, she comes from a - has seven children. she has seven. children, she comes from a wealthy background as well, and precisely, this is— background as well, and precisely, this is the — background as well, and precisely, this is the case that essentially says. _ this is the case that essentially says. if— this is the case that essentially says, if you have the means to do it, says, if you have the means to do it. you _ says, if you have the means to do it. you can— says, if you have the means to do it, you can have it's all about so that— it, you can have it's all about so that is— it, you can have it's all about so that is what— it, you can have it's all about so that is what i'm saying, should not the argument being to ensure how others _ the argument being to ensure how others have not exactly ursula von der leyen — others have not exactly ursula von der leyen is — others have not exactly ursula von der leyen is means but the ability to be _ der leyen is means but the ability to be able — der leyen is means but the ability to be able to have that professional life and _ to be able to have that professional life and be — to be able to have that professional life and be a mother of, perhaps not seven. _ life and be a mother of, perhaps not seven. but— life and be a mother of, perhaps not seven, but several children as well. i am seven, but several children as well. i am in _ seven, but several children as well. i am in awe — seven, but several children as well. i am in awe of ursula von der leyen, running europe and that family as well, and brian, what thing that occurs to me, you have kamala harris right now on stage saying freedom, onstage, saying we're not going back, and a lot will look at this

story an example of how to run life as a woman with a that is 1940s or 19505, i as a woman with a that is 1940s or 1950s, i don't want to go back to that. �* . ., . . 1950s, i don't want to go back to that. �*, ., , , ., that. there's a sense of submissiveness, - that. there's a sense of submissiveness, of - that. there's a sense of| submissiveness, of kind that. there's a sense of i submissiveness, of kind of that. there's a sense of - submissiveness, of kind of black that. there's a sense of _ submissiveness, of kind of black and one —— black and white feminine ideas here. many of these trade wife creators are appealing to men and putting on a show for men and posted on instagram and tiktok singh gets in millions of followers, and a result of the fact our life can become content and we can become creators on nine, it's also a reaction, number one to men who want that content and reaction to low birth rates and the idea of childlessness, people not having families, and all that concernjd vance has been talking about, and a reaction to technology and technology feeling like it is smothering us and people want to go back to their roots. it's an american ethos to want to go out and build a homestead out on the prairie. the first thing i did when i had a few bucks, i went out and

bought a farm, and a farm now and have so horses, but we haven't got around to the chickens and the rest because realistically, it is very difficult to do, and that is the thing about trad wife's, it is their job, they're doing it full—time, for theirjob, for their living, but they're pretending to put on a show for those who watch it, that is how i viewed. ., ., ., for those who watch it, that is how iviewed. ., ., ., ~ ., i viewed. you are not in, megan. that is it. _ i viewed. you are not in, megan. that is it. it's _ i viewed. you are not in, megan. that is it, it's a _ i viewed. you are not in, megan. that is it, it's a huge _ that is it, it's a huge contradiction, - that is it, it's a huge - contradiction, increasing a that is it, it's a huge _ contradiction, increasing a high paying — contradiction, increasing a high paying job _ contradiction, increasing a high paying job for _ contradiction, increasing a high paying job for themselves - contradiction, increasing a high paying job for themselves by. paying job for themselves by committing _ paying job for themselves by committing what— paying job for themselves by committing what this - paying job for themselves by. committing what this neighbour paying job for themselves by- committing what this neighbour in the home — committing what this neighbour in the home is. — committing what this neighbour in the home is, but— committing what this neighbour in the home is, but it _ committing what this neighbour in the home is, but it is _ committing what this neighbour in the home is, but it is also - the home is, but it is also right they— the home is, but it is also right they presented _ the home is, but it is also right they presented the _ the home is, but it is also right they presented the problem i the home is, but it is also right they presented the problem as| the home is, but it is also right- they presented the problem as the solution. _ they presented the problem as the solution, presenting _ they presented the problem as the solution, presenting this _ they presented the problem as the solution, presenting this home - they presented the problem as the| solution, presenting this home that for the _ solution, presenting this home that for the stay— solution, presenting this home that for the stay at — solution, presenting this home that for the stay at home _ solution, presenting this home that for the stay at home with _ solution, presenting this home that for the stay at home with the - for the stay at home with the children— for the stay at home with the children that _ for the stay at home with the children that looks _ for the stay at home with the children that looks perfect i for the stay at home with the i children that looks perfect and peaceful— children that looks perfect and peaceful and _ children that looks perfect and peaceful and everything - children that looks perfect and peaceful and everything works j children that looks perfect and . peaceful and everything works as children that looks perfect and - peaceful and everything works as the answer. _ peaceful and everything works as the answer. but — peaceful and everything works as the answer, but that _ peaceful and everything works as the answer, but that is _ peaceful and everything works as the answer, but that is actually- peaceful and everything works as the answer, but that is actually the - answer, but that is actually the problem — answer, but that is actually the problem in _ answer, but that is actually the problem in the _ answer, but that is actually the problem in the first _ answer, but that is actually the problem in the first place, - answer, but that is actually the - problem in the first place, because that is— problem in the first place, because that is the — problem in the first place, because that is the issue. _ problem in the first place, because that is the issue. it’s— problem in the first place, because that is the issue.— that is the issue. it's a really interesting _ that is the issue. it's a really interesting topic, _ that is the issue. it's a really interesting topic, really - interesting topic, really interesting, and has been popular

online, megan, thank you for coming on. who knew that brian stelter was a tried farmer, ijust did not know that. we would take a short break and be back shortly.

now, it's time for the panel. i squeeze it again so as to be brief, let me start with you first michael, giorgia meloni, we have been talking about freedom, she is rolling back freedoms. she been talking about freedom, she is rolling back freedoms.— rolling back freedoms. she is rollin: rolling back freedoms. she is rolling back _ rolling back freedoms. she is rolling back freedoms - rolling back freedoms. she is rolling back freedoms and . rolling back freedoms. she is l rolling back freedoms and what rolling back freedoms. she is - rolling back freedoms and what is interesting is that for several months. _ interesting is that for several months, the story has been giorgia meloni _ months, the story has been giorgia meloni has— months, the story has been giorgia meloni has been moving to the centre. — meloni has been moving to the centre, and look at their stance on ukraine _ centre, and look at their stance on ukraine and — centre, and look at their stance on ukraine and her attitude towards the european _ ukraine and her attitude towards the european union, and for a while i bought— european union, and for a while i bought into — european union, and for a while i bought into this as well, and what we have _ bought into this as well, and what we have been seen over the last several— we have been seen over the last

several months is really a giorgia meloni _ several months is really a giorgia meloni that innocence has been rooted — meloni that innocence has been rooted to— meloni that innocence has been rooted to herself. she started the mask— rooted to herself. she started the mask against european union, voted against _ mask against european union, voted against the _ mask against european union, voted against the ursula underline, seriously— against the ursula underline, seriously rolling back media freedoms in italy thinking about changing the constitution, centralising power in her hands, and i've centralising power in her hands, and i've been— centralising power in her hands, and i've been wondering whether the far ri-ht i've been wondering whether the far right actually moderate or is the real difference between a rough heart _ real difference between a rough heart rate and an incremental heart rate. _ heart rate and an incremental heart rate. which — heart rate and an incremental heart rate, which is the latter, which could _ rate, which is the latter, which could be — rate, which is the latter, which could be far more dangerous. we have seen it before. — could be far more dangerous. we have seen it before, it's _ could be far more dangerous. we have seen it before, it's interesting - could be far more dangerous. we have seen it before, it's interesting the - seen it before, it's interesting the producer picked a picture of viktor 0rban beside her, because addressing that in poland and hungary stop brian, you want to talk about this amazing image is of the surfer at the olympic games.— amazing image is of the surfer at the olympic games. olympic fever is real, television _

the olympic games. olympic fever is real, television ratings _ the olympic games. olympic fever is real, television ratings are _ the olympic games. olympic fever is real, television ratings are up, - the olympic games. olympic fever is real, television ratings are up, and i real, television ratings are up, and this photo sums developed, this 0lympics this photo sums developed, this olympics is something the world has need for years, and the best thing about the olympics, is discovering new sports unfolding of with those, here at my farming family, it is surfing, we are watching the serpent from tahiti every day, the most relaxing and calming background you can have on the television, just to watch the waves roll in for hours, and every so often, you get one of these incredible moments. ijust wish the olympics was longer than two weeks. it wish the olympics was longer than two weeks. . ,, wish the olympics was longer than twoweeks. , _ two weeks. it is passing by, the surfin: , two weeks. it is passing by, the surfing, clearly _ two weeks. it is passing by, the surfing, clearly not _ two weeks. it is passing by, the surfing, clearly not on - two weeks. it is passing by, the surfing, clearly not on the - two weeks. it is passing by, the surfing, clearly not on the river seine, you wouldn't get many ways there, is that where is, tahiti? tahiti, yes, the first this distance from it and if the quarters were seenin from it and if the quarters were seen in a decade, but worth it, not too late to tune in, so calming and relaxing, except for the athletes. the reason i'm not seen it, different time zone number that is why, i went to search at different

image of you tonight, brian, on the farm, watching surfing, nathalie and i will, and visit, always a pleasure to have you both nathalie and brian, i am on a breakfor the next few weeks, not on the programme, but who is here tomorrow question mark steve is here tomorrow question mark steve is here tomorrow question mark steve is here tomorrow. he will be through with you tomorrow night, have a good evening. have a good break, christine. good evening, i'm chetan pathak with your latest sports news. we start with the end of andy murray's playing career. in the last hour, his final match has ended in defeat at the paris 0lympics. he and dan evans have been beaten in straight sets by america's taylor fritz and tommy paul — 6—2 6—4 in the men's doubles quarter finals. murray, who's 37 and has had more injury problems this year, confirmed before the games that it would be his final event. and so this result brings the curtain down on an extraordinary career which included three

grand slam titles, two at wimbledon, and of course two olympic gold medals. meanwhile, the lawn tennis association has announced tonight in london has been re—named 'the andy murray arena'. gymnastics superstar simone biles has further cemented her greatness tonight, winning won gold for team usa in the women's all—around final. she finished with an overall score of 59.131 — ahead of brazil's rebeca andrade and her us team—mate sunisa lee. it completes a remarkable comeback for biles — who pulled out of the final in tokyo three years ago. it's her sixth olympic gold and ninth medal in total. the debate over the criteria for participation in women's sport inside 46 seconds. khelif is one of two athletes — along with taiwan's lin yu—ting — who've been cleared to compete

in the women's boxing in paris, having been disqualified from last year's women's world championships for failing to meet eligibility criteria. the ioc claims in khelif�*s case that was because of increased levels of testosterone which it says are within regulation now. 0ur sports editor dan roan has more from paris: it was always going to be highly controversial ever since it was revealed that these two fighters lin yu—ting and imane khelif of algeria were going to be allowed to compete in this woman's boxing competition by the ioc, despite both of them being disqualified by the world governing body, the iba, who were at that time were organising the world championship , also making it more complicated, that governing body has since been suspended by the ioc, and they are now effectively running the boxing competition and are applying their own rules that were applied to the last

of olympics, not the iba rules, and that is where the discrepancy lies between these two outcomes. the ioc says one thing, they maintain that when it comes to imane khelif, it was a highly elevated testosterone level, when it comes to lin yu—ting, it was a gender eligibility test that was failed. there is a discrepancy with what the iba, but angela carini's abandonment after 46 supercharged that controversy, and made what was already a divisive situation even more intense. double 0lympic champion helen glover missed out on a historic third title for britain as her women's four team were beaten by the netherlands in the rowing. glover — in the yellow boat — who returned to the sport after becoming a mother — took silver alongside esme booth, sam redgrave and rebecca shorten in a thrilling women's four race — they were edged out byjust .18 seconds. 0li wilkes, david ambler,

matt aldridge and freddie davidson took bronze in the mens fours — the united states winning gold in the even for the first time in 64 years. new zealand silver. there was also a bronze for the british pair of becky wilde and mathilda hodgkins byrne in the doubles sculls. gold for new zealand, silverfor romania. huddersfield giants. but it was far from straight forward, the warriors were 8—0 elsewhere leigh leopards beat castleford tigers by 20—10. some sad news tonight — the former leicester city manager craig shakespeare has died at the age of 60, his

he was undergoing treatment for cancer back in october last and had a spell as england assistant boss in 2016. and st mirren are through to the third qualifying round of round of the europa conference league. kilmarnock willjoin them there after losing in the europa league. that's all from us — goodnight. hello there. thursday was another day of heat and humidity, particularly across central and southern wales, where we saw temperatures widely into the high 20s. but temperatures did peak in wisley, surrey and bournemouth at 30 celsius once again. it did, however, come at a price this heat and humidity, because through the afternoon we saw a cluster of sharp, thundery downpours moving their way eastwards. now they started off across south wales and then steadily pushed their way east. they were quite slow moving because the winds pretty light, and they brought a lot of heavy rain

in a short space of time.

somewhat fresher conditions will arrive as we move into the weekend because as this front — a cold front — sinks south and east, it will introduce slightly less humid air, but there is still a risk of a cloudy start across parts of england and wales, and a line of sharp, thundery downpours moving their way south and east. behind it, brighter conditions, a few scattered showers into the northwest, and saturday not quite as warm right across the country, ranging from 15 to 2a celsius. and that trend is going to continue into the week ahead. temperatures perhaps back to where they should be for this time of year. there will be more in the way of rain around. but all in all, for some still some, good dry, usable weather. take care.

had been arrested for possession of the most serious category