another community subjected to street violence and clashes with police tonight. we are live in sunderland. and with more protests planned across the country through the weekend, we will ask how the far right has mobilised and what happens now. hello. good evening. a week of unrest, triggered by the murders in southport, and the prospect of more over the coming days. tonight, police in sunderland say that officers are dealing with "ongoing disorder" in the city centre — and have been subjected to serious violence. liverpool's seen protest and counter protest this evening outside the oldest mosque in england.

south yorkshire police, thames valley police, northern ireland's psni and nottinghamshire police have also said they are preparing for potential disorder that may come over the weekend. we're going to spend the whole programme trying to unpick what's going on with our panel — conservative home creator tim montgomerie, more in common�*s luke tryl, and podcaster coco khan. welcome to you all. joe is here too. let's head first though to sunderland and liverpool, two cities which seem the focus of protest tonight. kim mcguinness is the north east mayor and dr abdul hamid from liverpool's abdullah quilliam mosque — where protestors have begun gathering this evening. thank you both for coming on the programme on a night where clearly difficult scenes are being seen in your areas. difficult scenes are being seen in yourareas. if difficult scenes are being seen in your areas. if we start with you, kim mcguinness, please, the images on social media appear to show sunderland central police station on fire. northumbria police haven't

confirmed that yet, but describe the scale of what you are seeing on the streets of sunderland tonight. i’m streets of sunderland tonight. i'm shocked streets of sunderland tonight. in shocked and appalled by what i've seenin shocked and appalled by what i've seen in sunderland, on social media. i've had countless messages from people, telling me that they do not represent the views of the people of sunderland and i think that is really, really important. look, that's not protest, its violent crime, it's dangerous and it stands for absolutely nothing other than thuggery. it’s for absolutely nothing other than thu~e . �*, ., for absolutely nothing other than thu~e . h ., ., for absolutely nothing other than thuggery. it's important to say and we can see — thuggery. it's important to say and we can see from _ thuggery. it's important to say and we can see from these _ thuggery. it's important to say and we can see from these pictures, i thuggery. it's important to say and | we can see from these pictures, we are talking about at most it's reported 100, perhaps 200, 300 people, several hundred people anyway. what do you know about what's going on? northumbria police have said, our officers are continuing to deal with ongoing disorder, they've been subjected to serious violence. what do you know? i'm seeing the same as other people are seeing on social media and i'm pretty horrified by what i'm seeing. earlier this week we saw the tragic murder of three young girls in

southport and the southport community, communities around the country, came out with compassion and love, and this response is the absolute opposite of that. it's violence, its thuggery, its people taking to the streets and using that as an excuse to commit crime and it's completely inexcusable. i can see that northumbria police have got a really big response, i'm pleased to see that, i have every confidence these people will face the full force of the law, and so they should. �* , ., force of the law, and so they should. �* i. . ., force of the law, and so they should. �* i. _, . ., ., should. are you concerned about more rotests in should. are you concerned about more protests in the — should. are you concerned about more protests in the north-east _ should. are you concerned about more protests in the north-east over - should. are you concerned about more protests in the north-east over the - protests in the north—east over the coming days? i protests in the north-east over the coming days?— coming days? i am concerned, i'm very concerned _ coming days? i am concerned, i'm very concerned about more - coming days? i am concerned, i'm i very concerned about more protests. this is not the way to respond to a tragedy. you can't use things that are happening to other people as an excuse and the people who are grieving in southport will not feel comforted by this action, so what i would say to people is that this is not reflective of our region, this is not reflective of the views of

the people of our region. do not do it, nobody benefits. stat; the people of our region. do not do it, nobody benefits.— it, nobody benefits. stay with us, i'd like to bring _ it, nobody benefits. stay with us, i'd like to bring in _ it, nobody benefits. stay with us, i'd like to bring in dr _ it, nobody benefits. stay with us, i'd like to bring in dr abdul - it, nobody benefits. stay with us, | i'd like to bring in dr abdul hamid, co—chair of the abdullah quilliam mosque. there are reports of brick has been thrown at your mosque. describe what is happening. the -rotest describe what is happening. the protest started in earnest this evening — protest started in earnest this evening but our counterprotest, we are not— evening but our counterprotest, we are not calling a protest, it's a peaceful— are not calling a protest, it's a peaceful vigil against the thugs that have invaded our space, our city and — that have invaded our space, our city and our— that have invaded our space, our city and our community, and so we have _ city and our community, and so we have come — city and our community, and so we have come out in hundreds and they have come out in hundreds and they have literally been at most around 40 to _ have literally been at most around 40 to 50 _ have literally been at most around 40 to 50 people, but unfortunately there _ 40 to 50 people, but unfortunately there has— 40 to 50 people, but unfortunately there has been a minor clash but the police _ there has been a minor clash but the police have _ there has been a minor clash but the police have been out in force, they are stiii— police have been out in force, they are still here, and we are lucky, we have _ are still here, and we are lucky, we

have not— are still here, and we are lucky, we have not encountered any major trouble — have not encountered any major trouble so — have not encountered any major trouble so far, but it looks like they are — trouble so far, but it looks like they are not prepared to leave and i'm they are not prepared to leave and i'm not— they are not prepared to leave and i'm not sure — they are not prepared to leave and i'm not sure why. they've been here a few _ i'm not sure why. they've been here a few hours — i'm not sure why. they've been here a few hours. it's been raining and it's cold — a few hours. it's been raining and it's cold. they are still willing to stay in _ it's cold. they are still willing to stay in the — it's cold. they are still willing to stay in the middle of the night and there _ stay in the middle of the night and there have — stay in the middle of the night and there have been some women and chiidren— there have been some women and children on— there have been some women and children on the other side who have actually— children on the other side who have actually been facing as off. take children on the other side who have actually been facing as off.- actually been facing as off. take us throu:h, actually been facing as off. take us through. sorry _ actually been facing as off. take us through. sorry to — actually been facing as off. take us through, sorry to interrupt, - actually been facing as off. take us through, sorry to interrupt, take i actually been facing as off. take usj through, sorry to interrupt, take us through, sorry to interrupt, take us through your decision making because you must i assume have increased security at the mosque, but you've decided to stay there tonight, have you? decided to stay there tonight, have ou? , ., ., you? yes, we are defending our community. _ you? yes, we are defending our community. we _ you? yes, we are defending our community, we are _ you? yes, we are defending our community, we are embedded, | you? yes, we are defending our. community, we are embedded, we you? yes, we are defending our- community, we are embedded, we work very closely _ community, we are embedded, we work very closely within our communities, we've _ very closely within our communities, we've got— very closely within our communities, we've got areas right behind us and we've _ we've got areas right behind us and we've got— we've got areas right behind us and we've got to protect those communities. we are part and parcel of that— communities. we are part and parcel of that community. if we give up and we let— of that community. if we give up and we let those — of that community. if we give up and we let those thugs walked straight through— we let those thugs walked straight through our door, then they get away with anything they want to do and

any violence goes, so we've decided to stand _ any violence goes, so we've decided to stand as— any violence goes, so we've decided to stand as a — any violence goes, so we've decided to stand as a community and the mosque — to stand as a community and the mosque management, as well as the volunteers— mosque management, as well as the volunteers and the congregation, have _ volunteers and the congregation, have decided to stay. we are outside the gates— have decided to stay. we are outside the gates and we are managing with the gates and we are managing with the police _ the gates and we are managing with the police and with the counter protesters, with supporters and the people _ protesters, with supporters and the people of— protesters, with supporters and the people of liverpool who are with us. they understand, they feel, they want _ they understand, they feel, they want another version of southport happening here right on our doorstep. do happening here right on our doorstep-— happening here right on our doorste. ., , doorstep. do you and your community toniuht feel doorstep. do you and your community tonight feel under _ doorstep. do you and your community tonight feel under threat? _ doorstep. do you and your community tonight feel under threat? do - doorstep. do you and your community tonight feel under threat? do you - tonight feel under threat? do you feel protected? 50 tonight feel under threat? do you feel protected?— tonight feel under threat? do you feel protected? so far, thankfully, we feel protected _ feel protected? so far, thankfully, we feel protected by _ feel protected? so far, thankfully, we feel protected by the _ feel protected? so far, thankfully, we feel protected by the police. i we feel protected by the police. they— we feel protected by the police. they have done a greatjob we feel protected by the police. they have done a great job and we thank— they have done a great job and we thank them for their resilience, they— thank them for their resilience, they attacked and the way they have handled _ they attacked and the way they have handled the crowd has been remarkable, so without the police i

think. _ remarkable, so without the police i think. you — remarkable, so without the police i think, you know, this community would _ think, you know, this community would have — think, you know, this community would have been much more vulnerable. the edl march that was arranged _ vulnerable. the edl march that was arranged right across the road from the mosque would have had thousands of people _ the mosque would have had thousands of people protesting against this community, so luckily the police have _ community, so luckily the police have picked this up, the local communities have got involved, and we feel. _ communities have got involved, and we feel. we — communities have got involved, and we feel, we still feel vulnerable, we feel, we still feel vulnerable, we are _ we feel, we still feel vulnerable, we are not— we feel, we still feel vulnerable, we are not safe, the edl protesters have been— we are not safe, the edl protesters have been around, they've been mixing — have been around, they've been mixing within the crowd, they've been _ mixing within the crowd, they've been walking around the mosque and they've _ been walking around the mosque and they've been picked up by the police, — they've been picked up by the police, they've been tagged, so let's— police, they've been tagged, so let's see — police, they've been tagged, so let's see where this goes, and so far, let's see where this goes, and so far. i_ let's see where this goes, and so far. i mean. _ let's see where this goes, and so far, i mean, it's nearly 11 pm, they still haven't — far, i mean, it's nearly 11 pm, they still haven't left, they are still here — still haven't left, they are still here. ~ . , , , still haven't left, they are still here. a , , , ., still haven't left, they are still here. a , ,, ., , here. 0k, kim mcguinness, to bring ou back here. 0k, kim mcguinness, to bring you back in. — here. 0k, kim mcguinness, to bring you back in. for— here. ok, kim mcguinness, to bring you back in, for dr— here. 0k, kim mcguinness, to bring you back in, for dr abdul— here. 0k, kim mcguinness, to bring you back in, for dr abdul hamid i you back in, for dr abdul hamid there is a counterprotest that he is not calling a protest outside the

mosque that he takes heart from. in your community, do you know the situation there? have other people come out to defend the mosque in sunderland, for example?- come out to defend the mosque in sunderland, for example? look, it makes me — sunderland, for example? look, it makes me so _ sunderland, for example? look, it makes me so very _ sunderland, for example? look, it makes me so very sad _ sunderland, for example? look, it makes me so very sad that - sunderland, for example? look, itj makes me so very sad that muslim communities feel under threat and are being targeted by these far right protesters, also called protesters, they are not protesters, they are criminals. i've certainly seen people congregating in order to protect and defend that community, the but the thing that really strikes me is the number of people contacting me directly, going out on social media, speaking out to say that this is not what we are about, that this is not what we are about, that we are a friendly, proud, loving, hard—working region. loving, ha rd—working region. sunderland loving, hard—working region. sunderland is a place that is currently very much on the up and these people won't win, they will not define our reputation, so as a city of sanctuary, a place that is known for being very welcoming, you know, i really believe that the

people of sunderland will come together and stand very clearly against this kind of hatred. kim mcguinness _ against this kind of hatred. kim mcguinness and dr abdul hamid, thank you for coming on newsnight. i want to turn to you, joe, to paint a picture of what's happening across england tonight?— england tonight? particularly in sunderland _ england tonight? particularly in sunderland hundreds _ england tonight? particularly in sunderland hundreds of - england tonight? particularly in sunderland hundreds of people| sunderland hundreds of people including quite a lot of teenagers, some in masks, some draped in england flags, some charting in support of tommy robinson —— chanting in support of tommy robinson, we've seen the looting of shops, we've seen the image of an upturned taxi satellite, of police cars being smashed up and also there are these videos on multiple sources on social media of sunderland central police station alight. northumbria police have not confirmed that yet but clearly this is an evolving and dangerous situation and we of course also know that there are at least 30 more protests expected across the country this weekend, including in

southport. this weekend, including in southport-— this weekend, including in southort. . ., , ., southport. what is the government res - onse? southport. what is the government response? what _ southport. what is the government response? what is _ southport. what is the government response? what is the _ southport. what is the government response? what is the governmentj response? what is the government saying tonight?— saying tonight? yvette cooper has tweeted in the _ saying tonight? yvette cooper has tweeted in the last _ saying tonight? yvette cooper has tweeted in the last 20 _ saying tonight? yvette cooper has tweeted in the last 20 minutes i saying tonight? yvette cooper has tweeted in the last 20 minutes or| saying tonight? yvette cooper has i tweeted in the last 20 minutes or so per saying people involved in these protests in sunderland will pay the price for their violence and thuggery. i've been speaking to sources at the home office and number ten tonight, an extra 70 crown prosecutors are on standby this weekend to ensure that people involved in violence, criminals, are charged quickly. that's no surprise considering there is a pm who used to be a director of prosecutions and during the london riots in 2011 fast tracked a lot of prosecutions. we are also told that police intelligence officers are out trying to predict violence, stop it before it starts. it's unclear whether northumbria police employed these sort of officers. if so, that clearly didn't work and that maybe comes to the key problem here, which is hard to predict where the worst violence will flare up. some earlier in the evening had expected liverpool to be the focus now.

perhaps unexpectedly sunderland is where we are seeing the worst, some would say pretty shocking images. thanks, let's bring in our panel. also here on the sofa — co—founder of the centre for socialjustice and creator of conservative home, tim montgomerie, the uk director of the more in common think—tank, luke tryl. and coco khan, the co—host of the political podcast pod save the uk. lets start with the scenes in sunderland. what do you make of them? ., �* ., . .,, ., them? you've introduced me as a conservative _ them? you've introduced me as a conservative and _ them? you've introduced me as a conservative and i _ them? you've introduced me as a conservative and i sometimes i them? you've introduced me as a i conservative and i sometimes think what mrs thatcher would say in a circumstance like this and she would have a different view perhaps this government from a previous tory administration is in some of the multicultural and immigration but herfirst and foremost multicultural and immigration but her first and foremost response would be to condemn the thuggery. a lot of it is alcohol fuelled, its drug fuelled, it's completely unacceptable, and any decent person in britain today, a patriot, a christian, someone who believes that western civilisation and that front line and liverpool wouldn't be on

the side of defending the mosque, not attacking it. these people do not attacking it. these people do not speak for all those people in britain who do have some real questions about community cohesion. there is no excuse, no defence, for what we are seeing in too many cities, too many northern towns in britain at the moment. {ace cities, too many northern towns in britain at the moment. coco khan? i'm not convinced _ britain at the moment. coco khan? i'm not convinced this _ britain at the moment. coco khan? i'm not convinced this particular i i'm not convinced this particular mob _ i'm not convinced this particular mob has — i'm not convinced this particular mob has legitimate questions. if other— mob has legitimate questions. if other people have legitimate questions and concerns then of course — questions and concerns then of course there are many forums to discuss _ course there are many forums to discuss them and discuss then we should, _ discuss them and discuss then we should, but i'm not convinced those two things— should, but i'm not convinced those two things should be conflated. most of these _ two things should be conflated. most of these people are being mobilised lry of these people are being mobilised by disinformation, they've read the internet. _ by disinformation, they've read the internet, they are mustering a group of people _ internet, they are mustering a group of people they don't have much information about and they are looking — information about and they are looking to scapegoat a group of people — looking to scapegoat a group of people who have little power and many _ people who have little power and many years of government failings, so i many years of government failings, so i wanted — many years of government failings, so i wanted to say that i don't think— so i wanted to say that i don't think these people necessarily represent what we might call legitimate concerns. i represent what we might call legitimate concerns.- represent what we might call legitimate concerns. i think you would say _ legitimate concerns. i think you would say and _ legitimate concerns. i think you

would say and luke _ legitimate concerns. i think you would say and luke will- legitimate concerns. i think you would say and luke will be i legitimate concerns. i think you would say and luke will be ablej legitimate concerns. i think you i would say and luke will be able to confirm some of this, that if you poll the british people, if you look at some of what has been retweeted on social media, there is a body of public opinion in britain not protesting, not behaving like yobs, who are concerned about some things they've never given consent to in this country, a scale of immigration, a failure of certain communities to integrate, that are legitimate. we have to divorce what we are seeing tonight, unacceptable, from those conversations. i completely agree with goal on that but there is a failure in this country to be able to talk about how outrageous it is that muslim friends of mine have been telling me this week that they are frightened in britain, just as jews have week that they are frightened in britain, just asjews have been frightened over the last nine months, to talk about why certain muslim immigrants, particularly in this country, failed to integrate. those are legitimate questions. being able to talk about them at the same time without accusing each other of racism is important because white let's bring in luke tryl. how

do you think we've arrived at this moment? , , , ., , ., moment? give us your understanding ofthe moment? give us your understanding of the back story. _ moment? give us your understanding of the back story. the _ moment? give us your understanding of the back story. the truth _ moment? give us your understanding of the back story. the truth is - moment? give us your understanding of the back story. the truth is most i of the back story. the truth is most eo - le in of the back story. the truth is most people in britain, _ of the back story. the truth is most people in britain, people _ of the back story. the truth is most people in britain, people we i of the back story. the truth is most people in britain, people we speak| people in britain, people we speak to day— people in britain, people we speak to day in. — people in britain, people we speak to day in. day— people in britain, people we speak to day in. day out, _ people in britain, people we speak to day in, day out, are _ people in britain, people we speak to day in, day out, are proud - people in britain, people we speak to day in, day out, are proud we i to day in, day out, are proud we multiethnic— to day in, day out, are proud we multiethnic society. _ to day in, day out, are proud we multiethnic society. they- to day in, day out, are proud we multiethnic society. they mightl to day in, day out, are proud we i multiethnic society. they might have some _ multiethnic society. they might have some concerns — multiethnic society. they might have some concerns about _ multiethnic society. they might have some concerns about immigration, i some concerns about immigration, they might — some concerns about immigration, they might have _ some concerns about immigration, they might have disillusionment i some concerns about immigration, i they might have disillusionment with politics. _ they might have disillusionment with politics. the — they might have disillusionment with politics, the fact _ they might have disillusionment with politics, the fact they— they might have disillusionment with politics, the fact they can't _ they might have disillusionment with politics, the fact they can't get - they might have disillusionment with politics, the fact they can't get a i politics, the fact they can't get a gp appointment _ politics, the fact they can't get a gp appointment might _ politics, the fact they can't get a gp appointment might make i politics, the fact they can't get a i gp appointment might make them disillusioned _ gp appointment might make them disillusioned as _ gp appointment might make them disillusioned as well, _ gp appointment might make them disillusioned as well, but - gp appointment might make them disillusioned as well, but that i gp appointment might make them disillusioned as well, but that is i disillusioned as well, but that is very separate _ disillusioned as well, but that is very separate to _ disillusioned as well, but that is very separate to what _ disillusioned as well, but that is very separate to what we - disillusioned as well, but that is very separate to what we are i disillusioned as well, but that is i very separate to what we are seeing tonight— very separate to what we are seeing tonight and — very separate to what we are seeing tonight and i— very separate to what we are seeing tonight and i actually— very separate to what we are seeing tonight and i actually don't - very separate to what we are seeing tonight and i actually don't think i tonight and i actually don't think this is— tonight and i actually don't think this is the — tonight and i actually don't think this is the space _ tonight and i actually don't think this is the space to— tonight and i actually don't think this is the space to have - tonight and i actually don't think this is the space to have the i this is the space to have the conversation _ this is the space to have the conversation about- this is the space to have the conversation about those i this is the space to have the - conversation about those concerns, because _ conversation about those concerns, because i'm — conversation about those concerns, because i'm worried _ conversation about those concerns, because i'm worried that _ conversation about those concerns, because i'm worried that in - conversation about those concerns, because i'm worried that in doing i conversation about those concerns, | because i'm worried that in doing so you give _ because i'm worried that in doing so you give credence _ because i'm worried that in doing so you give credence to _ because i'm worried that in doing so you give credence to these - because i'm worried that in doing so you give credence to these thugs i because i'm worried that in doing so. you give credence to these thugs who don't speak— you give credence to these thugs who don't speak for— you give credence to these thugs who don't speak for the _ you give credence to these thugs who don't speak for the vast _ you give credence to these thugs who don't speak for the vast majority- you give credence to these thugs who don't speak for the vast majority of. don't speak for the vast majority of britons. _ don't speak for the vast majority of britons. don't— don't speak for the vast majority of britons, don't speak _ don't speak for the vast majority of britons, don't speak for _ don't speak for the vast majority of britons, don't speak for the - don't speak for the vast majority of britons, don't speak for the vast i britons, don't speak for the vast majority— britons, don't speak for the vast majority of— britons, don't speak for the vast majority of people _ britons, don't speak for the vast majority of people who - britons, don't speak for the vast majority of people who have i majority of people who have concerns _ majority of people who have concerns i _ majority of people who have concerns. i was _ majority of people who have concerns. i was talking i majority of people who have concerns. i was talking to i majority of people who have i concerns. i was talking to some voters — concerns. i was talking to some voters in — concerns. i was talking to some voters in lee, _ concerns. i was talking to some voters in lee, in— concerns. i was talking to some voters in lee, in greater- concerns. i was talking to some i voters in lee, in greater manchester last night— voters in lee, in greater manchester last night and — voters in lee, in greater manchester last night and they _ voters in lee, in greater manchester last night and they had _ voters in lee, in greater manchester last night and they had concerns i last night and they had concerns about— last night and they had concerns about immigration, _ last night and they had concerns about immigration, they- last night and they had concerns about immigration, they had i last night and they had concerns - about immigration, they had concerns about— about immigration, they had concerns about some _ about immigration, they had concerns about some of— about immigration, they had concerns about some of the _ about immigration, they had concerns about some of the policies _ about immigration, they had concerns about some of the policies of - about immigration, they had concerns about some of the policies of past i about some of the policies of past governments _ about some of the policies of past governments. their— about some of the policies of past governments. their first- about some of the policies of past governments. their first thought i governments. their first thought when _ governments. their first thought when they— governments. their first thought when they were _ governments. their first thought when they were talking - governments. their first thought when they were talking about i governments. their first thought i when they were talking about these protesters — when they were talking about these protesters was, _ when they were talking about these

protesters was, we _ when they were talking about these protesters was, we have _ when they were talking about these protesters was, we have law- when they were talking about these protesters was, we have law and i protesters was, we have law and order in— protesters was, we have law and order in this _ protesters was, we have law and order in this country, _ protesters was, we have law and order in this country, you - protesters was, we have law and order in this country, you followi order in this country, you follow the rules— order in this country, you follow the rules and _ order in this country, you follow the rules and you _ order in this country, you follow the rules and you treat - order in this country, you follow the rules and you treat people i order in this country, you follow. the rules and you treat people with respect _ the rules and you treat people with respect and — the rules and you treat people with respect and it's _ the rules and you treat people with respect and it's important - the rules and you treat people with respect and it's important to - respect and it's important to divorce — respect and it's important to divorce the _ respect and it's important to divorce the two _ respect and it's important toi divorce the two conversations because — divorce the two conversations because we _ divorce the two conversations because we credit _ divorce the two conversations because we credit the - divorce the two conversations i because we credit the protesters with too — because we credit the protesters with too much— because we credit the protesters with too much if— because we credit the protesters with too much if we _ because we credit the protesters with too much if we don't. - because we credit the protesters with too much if we don't.- because we credit the protesters with too much if we don't. there are --eole with too much if we don't. there are people saying _ with too much if we don't. there are people saying this — with too much if we don't. there are people saying this is _ with too much if we don't. there are people saying this is actually - with too much if we don't. there are people saying this is actually about | people saying this is actually about the fact these people haven't been listened to, that they've got legitimate concerns over immigration, economic injustice, crime, and that this is the blowback. well, look, my position is that a key part— well, look, my position is that a key part of— well, look, my position is that a key part of why we are seeing this tension _ key part of why we are seeing this tension is — key part of why we are seeing this tension is economic. we've seen a briton _ tension is economic. we've seen a briton that's — tension is economic. we've seen a briton that's been in economic decline — briton that's been in economic decline since 2008. gdp may have gone _ decline since 2008. gdp may have gone up _ decline since 2008. gdp may have gone up the wealth is concentrated and most _ gone up the wealth is concentrated and most people's lives have got worse _ and most people's lives have got worse we — and most people's lives have got worse. we talked about keir starmer 's response — worse. we talked about keir starmer '5 response. anyone familiar with barking _ '5 response. anyone familiar with barking and dagenham where i grew up in the barking and dagenham where i grew up inthe 90s, _ barking and dagenham where i grew up inthe 90s, a— barking and dagenham where i grew up in the 905, a big national front and bnp presence, they 5pray tainted my house. i_ bnp presence, they 5pray tainted my house, i know what it is like to

hou5e, i know what it is like to feel— house, i know what it is like to feel afraid _ house, i know what it is like to feel afraid walking around. the police — feel afraid walking around. the police re5pon5e feel afraid walking around. the police response is going to make people _ police response is going to make people feel safer but that's part of the puzzle. we need briton feeling happier— the puzzle. we need briton feeling happieragain, more secure. we must invest— happieragain, more secure. we must invest in— happieragain, more secure. we must invest in britain again. i think the economics — invest in britain again. i think the economics of the situation and the government that —— governments that have seen— government that —— governments that have seen this decline mu5t government that —— governments that have seen this decline must answer. i have seen this decline must answer. i have _ have seen this decline must answer. i have a _ have seen this decline must answer. i have a lot — have seen this decline must answer. i have a lot of sympathy for what luke has said. i'm uncomfortable seeing this rioting but the flip side is that when somebody raises these concerns, that are held by many people, are they going to be shouted down and say, you are just like the people who were rioting a few weeks ago in places like southport and sunderland? the timing and juxtaposition of these conversations are very important but a lot of people, they are talking about it in pubs and at family meal tables. if we can't talk about it on

a forum like newsnight we are in trouble. i a forum like newsnight we are in trouble. ., . , . trouble. i totally agree, tim, exce -t trouble. i totally agree, tim, except for— trouble. i totally agree, tim, except for the _ trouble. i totally agree, tim, except for the fact _ trouble. i totally agree, tim, except for the fact that i trouble. i totally agree, tim, except for the fact that we i trouble. i totally agree, tim, l except for the fact that we fall into the — except for the fact that we fall into the trap _ except for the fact that we fall into the trap of _ except for the fact that we fall into the trap of legitimising i except for the fact that we fall i into the trap of legitimising those who would — into the trap of legitimising those who would call— into the trap of legitimising those who would call everyone - into the trap of legitimising those who would call everyone who i into the trap of legitimising those who would call everyone who is i who would call everyone who is concerned _ who would call everyone who is concerned about _ who would call everyone who is concerned about immigration i who would call everyone who is concerned about immigration a| who would call everyone who is - concerned about immigration a racist if we conflate — concerned about immigration a racist if we conflate it _ concerned about immigration a racist if we conflate it with _ concerned about immigration a racist if we conflate it with what's - if we conflate it with what's happening _ if we conflate it with what's happening tonight. - if we conflate it with what's happening tonight. there i if we conflate it with what's i happening tonight. there are if we conflate it with what's - happening tonight. there are those on the _ happening tonight. there are those on the far— happening tonight. there are those on the far right _ happening tonight. there are those on the far right who want _ happening tonight. there are those on the far right who want to say i on the far right who want to say this is— on the far right who want to say this is about _ on the far right who want to say this is about legitimate - this is about legitimate concerns and there — this is about legitimate concerns and there are _ this is about legitimate concerns and there are those _ this is about legitimate concerns and there are those on - this is about legitimate concerns and there are those on the - this is about legitimate concerns and there are those on the far. this is about legitimate concerns. and there are those on the far left who says — and there are those on the far left who says anyone _ and there are those on the far left who says anyone with _ and there are those on the far left who says anyone with concern i and there are those on the far left i who says anyone with concern about immigration — who says anyone with concern about immigration is — who says anyone with concern about immigration is a _ who says anyone with concern about immigration is a racist. _ who says anyone with concern about immigration is a racist. we - who says anyone with concern about immigration is a racist. we must- immigration is a racist. we must keep— immigration is a racist. we must keep the — immigration is a racist. we must keep the conversations - keep the conversations separate. there is a — keep the conversations separate. there is a time _ keep the conversations separate. there is a time and _ keep the conversations separate. there is a time and a _ keep the conversations separate. there is a time and a place. i keep the conversations separate. there is a time and a place. the i there is a time and a place. the focus _ there is a time and a place. the focus should _ there is a time and a place. the focus should be _ there is a time and a place. the focus should be on— there is a time and a place. the focus should be on how- there is a time and a place. the focus should be on how we i there is a time and a place. the focus should be on how we 5top| there is a time and a place. the - focus should be on how we stop these mobs _ well, let's talk about how much social media is driving what's been happening. with disinformation rife, protests that look fairly easy to organise, and protesters apparently, at times, able to give the police the runaround. joining me isjoe 0ndrak, head of investigations at the misinformation tracking company logically. good evening, joe. just give us the

back story to this. where has this network emerged? people are talking about a post—organisational far right. how has it happened? 50. about a post-organisational far right. how has it happened? so, the scene has been _ right. how has it happened? so, the scene has been set _ right. how has it happened? so, the scene has been set way _ right. how has it happened? so, the scene has been set way back, i right. how has it happened? so, the scene has been set way back, really| scene has been set way back, really galvanised during the lockdown of 2020 and the pandemic. a lot of people found themselves online looking for answers. a lot of normal people, everyday users, as well as those with ideologies and agendas. 0ver those with ideologies and agendas. over the years, during lockdown, when the pandemic was the main news story of the time, you found these groups gravitating towards platforms like telegram, from mainstream platforms like twitter and facebook. 0n the telegram, the infrastructure was laid for a lot of protest organisations to take place, so we saw that with anti—lockdown

protests, we saw it with the occupation of the itv news office, we saw it with the attempted citizens arrests at vaccination stations. 0nce citizens arrests at vaccination stations. once the far right... what the far right saw was an opportunity to hijack and leveraged this infrastructure for people who were possible conspiracy theorists, anti—vaccine orjust generally scared and concerned, given the pandemic, and slowly turning the dial towards anti—migrant rhetoric, far right rhetoric, planting the seeds and using the language of conspiracy theory to bring people on board to make these ideas more personal to those who wouldn't necessarily consider themselves anti—migrant. necessarily consider themselves anti-migrant— necessarily consider themselves anti-mirrant. ~ , ., ., anti-migrant. when it comes to what we are seeing — anti-migrant. when it comes to what we are seeing now, _ anti-migrant. when it comes to what we are seeing now, how— anti-migrant. when it comes to what we are seeing now, how much i anti-migrant. when it comes to what we are seeing now, how much is - we are seeing now, how much is social media planning this, enabling it, if you like? —— fanning this? it

is not only happening in places like telegram but the ephemeral media such as tiktok accounts and instagram stories. the ability to create a poster for a instagram stories. the ability to create a posterfor a protest, put it online, get people to screenshot it online, get people to screenshot it and share it around and these networks, flows of information can circulate it quite rapidly. flan networks, flows of information can circulate it quite rapidly.— circulate it quite rapidly. can it be tackled. — circulate it quite rapidly. can it be tackled, is _ circulate it quite rapidly. can it be tackled, is there _ circulate it quite rapidly. can it be tackled, is there a - circulate it quite rapidly. can it be tackled, is there a way - circulate it quite rapidly. can it be tackled, is there a way of. be tackled, is there a way of stopping it? be tackled, is there a way of stepping it?— be tackled, is there a way of stopping it? there's certainly ways in which we _ stopping it? there's certainly ways in which we can _ stopping it? there's certainly ways in which we can try. _ stopping it? there's certainly ways in which we can try. the _ stopping it? there's certainly ways in which we can try. the tools - stopping it? there's certainly ways in which we can try. the tools we | in which we can try. the tools we develop here allow us to track it and try to stop it, however the rapid development of this and making sure we understand the groups who are both vulnerable to be mobilised when they don't necessarily believe these ideas and those who are taking advantage of them are both key as well. ~ . ., , ., advantage of them are both key as well. ~ . ., , ., well. what are you picking about lanned well. what are you picking about planned protests _ well. what are you picking about planned protests over _ well. what are you picking about planned protests over the - well. what are you picking about planned protests over the next l well. what are you picking about i planned protests over the next few days? the police are talking about it, have you picked up on that as well? . ., ., .,

well? there are a lot of conversations - well? there are a lot of conversations around . well? there are a lot of- conversations around various protests. ironically people talking about masking up but also not participating in violence, so you have this strange dissidence going on. posts are being circulated. at the last count i've seen 16 sincere efforts to organise protests around the country with probably more on the country with probably more on the way as well.— let's pick it up with you. coco does the increasingly online way we lead our lives make this worse? definitely, there are lots of pieces of the _ definitely, there are lots of pieces of the puzzle _ definitely, there are lots of pieces of the puzzle. i've _ definitely, there are lots of pieces of the puzzle. i've spoken - definitely, there are lots of pieces of the puzzle. i've spoken about . definitely, there are lots of pieces i of the puzzle. i've spoken about how a lot of— of the puzzle. i've spoken about how a lot of the _ of the puzzle. i've spoken about how a lot of the problems, _ of the puzzle. i've spoken about how a lot of the problems, foreign - a lot of the problems, foreign interference, _ a lot of the problems, foreign interference, misinformation, a lot of the problems, foreign - interference, misinformation, people with political— interference, misinformation, people with political agendas _ interference, misinformation, people with political agendas and _ interference, misinformation, people with political agendas and also - interference, misinformation, people with political agendas and also just i with political agendas and also just bil with political agendas and also just big tech— with political agendas and also just big tech giants being _ with political agendas and also just big tech giants being held - with political agendas and also just big tech giants being held to - with political agendas and also just big tech giants being held to no . big tech giants being held to no account— big tech giants being held to no account whatsoever _ big tech giants being held to no account whatsoever when - big tech giants being held to no account whatsoever when theyl big tech giants being held to no - account whatsoever when they allow misinformation _ account whatsoever when they allow misinformation to _ account whatsoever when they allow misinformation to thrive _ account whatsoever when they allow misinformation to thrive and - misinformation to thrive and ultimately— misinformation to thrive and ultimately benefit, - misinformation to thrive and ultimately benefit, they- misinformation to thrive and ultimately benefit, they are i ultimately benefit, they are factors, _ ultimately benefit, they are factors, when _ ultimately benefit, they are factors, when you - ultimately benefit, they are factors, when you add - ultimately benefit, they are factors, when you add it - ultimately benefit, they are factors, when you add it to| ultimately benefit, they are - factors, when you add it to people feeling _ factors, when you add it to people feeling hard — factors, when you add it to people feeling hard up _ factors, when you add it to people feeling hard up for— factors, when you add it to people feeling hard up for money, - factors, when you add it to people feeling hard up for money, angry, | feeling hard up for money, angry, upset, _ feeling hard up for money, angry, upset, it— feeling hard up for money, angry, upset, it becomes _

feeling hard up for money, angry, upset, it becomes a _ feeling hard up for money, angry, upset, it becomes a bit _ feeling hard up for money, angry, upset, it becomes a bit of- feeling hard up for money, angry, upset, it becomes a bit of a - upset, it becomes a bit of a problem _ upset, it becomes a bit of a problem. solving _ upset, it becomes a bit of a - problem. solving misinformation obviously— problem. solving misinformation obviously needs— problem. solving misinformation obviously needs to _ problem. solving misinformation obviously needs to be _ problem. solving misinformation obviously needs to be done - problem. solving misinformation i obviously needs to be done because it is toxic— obviously needs to be done because it is toxic and — obviously needs to be done because it is toxic and terrible _ obviously needs to be done because it is toxic and terrible and _ obviously needs to be done because it is toxic and terrible and it - it is toxic and terrible and it sticks, _ it is toxic and terrible and it sticks. peopte _ it is toxic and terrible and it sticks, people keep- it is toxic and terrible and it l sticks, people keep repeating it is toxic and terrible and it - sticks, people keep repeating these lies sticks, people keep repeating these ties for— sticks, people keep repeating these ties for a _ sticks, people keep repeating these ties for a long — sticks, people keep repeating these lies for a long time _ sticks, people keep repeating these lies for a long time until— sticks, people keep repeating these lies for a long time until they- lies for a long time until they become _ lies for a long time until they become true. _ lies for a long time until they become true. but _ lies for a long time until they become true. but i— lies for a long time until they become true. but i don't- lies for a long time until they. become true. but i don't believe it's the _ become true. but i don't believe it's the only— become true. but i don't believe it's the only thing. _ become true. but i don't believe it's the only thing. i— become true. but i don't believe it's the only thing. i don't - become true. but i don't believel it's the only thing. i don't believe it's the only thing. i don't believe it'siust _ it's the only thing. i don't believe it'siust a — it's the only thing. i don't believe it'siust a case _ it's the only thing. i don't believe it's just a case of _ it's the only thing. i don't believe it's just a case of some _ it's the only thing. i don't believe it's just a case of some thugs - it's just a case of some thugs and misinformation. _ it's just a case of some thugs and misinformation. there _ it's just a case of some thugs and misinformation. there is- it's just a case of some thugs and misinformation. there is more i it's just a case of some thugs and misinformation. there is more at| misinformation. there is more at play~ _ misinformation. there is more at play~ i_ misinformation. there is more at play. i would _ misinformation. there is more at play. i would say, _ misinformation. there is more at play. i would say, tim, _ misinformation. there is more at play. iwould say, tim, i- misinformation. there is more at play. i would say, tim, i would . play. i would say, tim, i would argue — play. i would say, tim, i would argue that _ play. i would say, tim, i would argue that the _ play. i would say, tim, i would argue that the conservative - argue that the conservative government— argue that the conservative government and _ argue that the conservative government and how - argue that the conservative government and how they. argue that the conservative - government and how they have been dotting _ government and how they have been dotting the _ government and how they have been dotting the cap — government and how they have been dotting the cap to— government and how they have been doffing the cap to some _ government and how they have been doffing the cap to some of _ government and how they have been doffing the cap to some of these - doffing the cap to some of these hard-tine — doffing the cap to some of these hard—line, right— doffing the cap to some of these hard—line, right ideas, _ doffing the cap to some of these hard—line, right ideas, they- doffing the cap to some of these hard—line, right ideas, they also| hard—line, right ideas, they also have _ hard—line, right ideas, they also have to — hard—line, right ideas, they also have to take _ hard—line, right ideas, they also have to take responsibility. - hard—line, right ideas, they also have to take responsibility. if i hard—line, right ideas, they alsoi have to take responsibility. if you say stop — have to take responsibility. if you say stop the _ have to take responsibility. if you say stop the boats... _ have to take responsibility. if you say stop the boats... [— have to take responsibility. if you say stop the boats. . ._ have to take responsibility. if you say stop the boats... i wonder how ou read say stop the boats... i wonder how you read that? _ say stop the boats. .. i wonder how you read that? i _ say stop the boats. .. i wonder how you read that? i think— say stop the boats... i wonder how you read that? i think the - say stop the boats... i wonder how you read that? i think the vast - you read that? i think the vast ma'ori you read that? i think the vast majority of — you read that? i think the vast majority of the _ you read that? i think the vast majority of the british - you read that? i think the vast majority of the british people | you read that? i think the vast - majority of the british people quite rightly think that british people are welcoming people coming here genuinely fleeing from war—torn parts of the world, but people coming in illegally across the english channel, breaking into the country, effectively, that is strongly disapproved of and so it

should be because they are undermining the public confidence in the immigration system generally. so i have to disagree with coco on that. it isn't hard right rhetoric. margaret thatcher was very clear in the 19705, she broke the national front of the 705, who were more extreme than almost any fascist organisation we see today, by taking clear positions on immigration and community cohesion. she said quite rightly that if mainstream parties don't reassure the public then the borders and the streets are under control, then they will turn to the extreme parties. that's thejob control, then they will turn to the extreme parties. that's the job of the conservative party and the labour party. i don't believe they have exceeded the language of moderation on this at all. i don't think it is _ moderation on this at all. i don't think it is helpful— moderation on this at all. i don't think it is helpful to _ moderation on this at all. i don't think it is helpful to label - think it is helpful to label something like saying stop the boats. — something like saying stop the boats, which the vast majority, including — boats, which the vast majority, including most labour voters, most progressive —

including most labour voters, most progressive voters want, as hard right— progressive voters want, as hard right rhetoric. there is some language _ right rhetoric. there is some language from individual politicians, like similar pavement -- like _ politicians, like similar pavement —— like suella braverman talking about— —— like suella braverman talking about an — —— like suella braverman talking about an invasion... but people want people _ about an invasion... but people want people to _ about an invasion... but people want people to follow the rules when it comes— people to follow the rules when it comes to — people to follow the rules when it comes to immigration and asylum. we are a generous country. i often say that when— are a generous country. i often say that when it _ are a generous country. i often say that when it comes to refugee policy, — that when it comes to refugee policy, the british public want control— policy, the british public want control and compassion. james cleverly said — control and compassion. james cleverly said tonight _ control and compassion. james cleverly said tonight that - control and compassion. james cleverly said tonight that we i control and compassion. james - cleverly said tonight that we cannot let rioting thugs and rioters win. but sometimes the narrative that is being _ but sometimes the narrative that is being engaged _ but sometimes the narrative that is being engaged with, _ but sometimes the narrative that is being engaged with, it— but sometimes the narrative that is being engaged with, it is— but sometimes the narrative that is being engaged with, it is like - being engaged with, it is like britain — being engaged with, it is like britain is _ being engaged with, it is like britain is painted _ being engaged with, it is like britain is painted as - being engaged with, it is like britain is painted as if- being engaged with, it is like britain is painted as if it's- being engaged with, it is like britain is painted as if it's a l britain is painted as if it's a lovely— britain is painted as if it's a lovely grandfather- britain is painted as if it's a lovely grandfather who- britain is painted as if it's a i lovely grandfather who takes britain is painted as if it's a - lovely grandfather who takes in the waifs lovely grandfather who takes in the waits and _ lovely grandfather who takes in the waifs and strays _ lovely grandfather who takes in the waifs and strays out _ lovely grandfather who takes in the waifs and strays out of— lovely grandfather who takes in the waifs and strays out of the - lovely grandfather who takes in the i waifs and strays out of the goodness of their— waifs and strays out of the goodness of their heart— waifs and strays out of the goodness of their heart and _ waifs and strays out of the goodness of their heart and they _ waifs and strays out of the goodness of their heart and they run _ waifs and strays out of the goodness of their heart and they run amok. i of their heart and they run amok. that's_ of their heart and they run amok. that's not— of their heart and they run amok. that's not what _ of their heart and they run amok. that's not what happened, - of their heart and they run amok. that's not what happened, therei of their heart and they run amok. i that's not what happened, there are 'obs that's not what happened, there are jobs needing — that's not what happened, there are jobs needing to _ that's not what happened, there are jobs needing to be _ that's not what happened, there are jobs needing to be done _ that's not what happened, there are jobs needing to be done and - that's not what happened, there are jobs needing to be done and most. that's not what happened, there arej jobs needing to be done and most of those _ jobs needing to be done and most of those people — jobs needing to be done and most of those people were _ jobs needing to be done and most of those people were legally— jobs needing to be done and most of those people were legally allowed i those people were legally allowed here to _ those people were legally allowed here to do — those people were legally allowed here to do those _ those people were legally allowed here to do those jobs _ those people were legally allowed here to do those jobs and - those people were legally allowed here to do those jobs and set - those people were legally allowed here to do those jobs and set up i here to do those jobs and set up

their— here to do those jobs and set up their lives— here to do those jobs and set up their lives and _ here to do those jobs and set up their lives and deserve - here to do those jobs and set up their lives and deserve to - here to do those jobs and set up their lives and deserve to be - their lives and deserve to be respected _ their lives and deserve to be respected i_ their lives and deserve to be respected. idon't— their lives and deserve to be respected. i don't know- their lives and deserve to be| respected. i don't know what their lives and deserve to be - respected. i don't know what the respected. idon't know what the numbers— respected. i don't know what the numbers are _ respected. i don't know what the numbers are but _ respected. i don't know what the numbers are but you _ respected. i don't know what the numbers are but you have - respected. i don't know what the numbers are but you have to - respected. i don't know what the i numbers are but you have to accept that the _ numbers are but you have to accept that the conversation _ numbers are but you have to accept that the conversation between - numbers are but you have to acceptj that the conversation between legal and illegal— that the conversation between legal and illegal has— that the conversation between legal and illegal has got _ that the conversation between legal and illegal has got outrageous - that the conversation between legal and illegal has got outrageous and i don't think— and illegal has got outrageous and i don't think the _ and illegal has got outrageous and i don't think the conservative - and illegal has got outrageous and i don't think the conservative party . don't think the conservative party wanted _ don't think the conservative party wanted to— don't think the conservative party wanted to even _ don't think the conservative party wanted to even stop _ don't think the conservative party wanted to even stop that. people | wanted to even stop that. people don't _ wanted to even stop that. people don't know— wanted to even stop that. people don't know the _ wanted to even stop that. people don't know the difference - wanted to even stop that. people - don't know the difference sometimes between _ don't know the difference sometimes between a _ don't know the difference sometimes between a person— don't know the difference sometimes between a person of— don't know the difference sometimes between a person of colour _ don't know the difference sometimes between a person of colour and - between a person of colour and anyone — between a person of colour and anyone else _ between a person of colour and anyone else-— between a person of colour and anyone else. what i think is the dancer, anyone else. what i think is the danger. what — anyone else. what i think is the danger, what you _ anyone else. what i think is the danger, what you are _ anyone else. what i think is the danger, what you are tiptoeing| danger, what you are tiptoeing towards, you haven't quite got there, but a lot of people feel an immigrant should speak english and integrate and that they should accept basic british values. there is a sense that if you start to voice those sorts of views, very quickly you can be shouted down as a racist. having a censorious attitude towards certain words, that people sometimes clumsily but not malevolently used, it means this conversation is driven underground in a way that leads to the kind of violence we've seen on the streets rather than it being a serious discussion.

i'd like to bring in lord walney, the government's advisor on political violence and disruption. thanks for coming on. 0ver thanks for coming on. over the last couple of days we've seen protests, violence in various parts of england and it is continuing. what's your reaction? does it surprise you? i think the speed and volatility with which this has spread has been surprising. it's certainly seen police forces scrambling to keep up. but this has been a latent possibility through the ways in which the far right and extreme actors have been able to organise it in recent years. do actors have been able to organise it in recent years— in recent years. do you see it as a resurgence _ in recent years. do you see it as a resurgence of— in recent years. do you see it as a resurgence of the _ in recent years. do you see it as a resurgence of the far _ in recent years. do you see it as a resurgence of the far right? - in recent years. do you see it as a resurgence of the far right? on i in recent years. do you see it as a| resurgence of the far right? on the one hand you've — resurgence of the far right? on the one hand you've seemed _ resurgence of the far right? on the one hand you've seemed to - resurgence of the far right? on the one hand you've seemed to have . resurgence of the far right? on the i one hand you've seemed to have the far right at a lower air, organisationally, but clearly there's been that latent possibility for groups and movements to form

quite quickly, aided through the powers and the ways that social media works, for things to flare up. i think at the moment we are in danger of disappearing down a rabbit hole with these conversations about... too much or too little conversation about immigration. you have a situation on the streets now where a number of towns are burning out of control in the evenings and the focus has got to be on restoring the focus has got to be on restoring the deterrent effect as quickly as possible. the deterrent effect as quickly as ossible. �* ., ., , ., the deterrent effect as quickly as ossible. �* ., ., i. ., the deterrent effect as quickly as ossible. �* ., ., ., ., possible. and how do you do that? what can be _ possible. and how do you do that? what can be done? _ possible. and how do you do that? what can be done? sir— possible. and how do you do that? what can be done? sir keir- possible. and how do you do that? | what can be done? sir keir starmer is talking about establishing a violent disorder unit and police force coordination, is that the answer? . ., ., ., force coordination, is that the answer? _, ., ., ., force coordination, is that the answer? ., ., ., , answer? one recommendation of my review, answer? one recommendation of my review. one — answer? one recommendation of my review. one of _ answer? one recommendation of my review, one of the _ answer? one recommendation of my review, one of the things _ answer? one recommendation of my review, one of the things they - review, one of the things they wanted to tackle, the gap in sharing intelligence between, if you have troublemakers in one part of the country being dealt with by one

force, but they are looking towards organising something in a different part of the country, then sometimes there has been a gap. so getting that capability fired up as quickly as possible, but then we've got relatively new strength and legislation on the statute book now that enables people who are known violent offenders or have been convicted of disruptive protest in the past cannot travel to the scene of different sites. that has got to be a thing used to the maximum now to be able to ensure that you can't have this kind of flying picket of far right organisers going from area to area and whipping this up. what to area and whipping this up. what about the idea _ to area and whipping this up. what about the idea of _ to area and whipping this up. what about the idea of banning them? we know that groups like national action are proscribed. should the

groups like this go on to a list and be banned? i groups like this go on to a list and be banned?— groups like this go on to a list and be banned? ~ , ,. , ., ., , be banned? i think prescription does have its place _ be banned? i think prescription does have its place and _ be banned? i think prescription does have its place and there _ be banned? i think prescription does have its place and there is _ be banned? i think prescription does have its place and there is an - be banned? i think prescription does have its place and there is an issue | have its place and there is an issue over whether it would be effective or not to ban groups that have officially been disbanded but are still active in some ways. we should look at that urgently but it is only part of the picture given actually you have to have the same ringleaders, the same people who can be active and are able at very quick notice now to build up these fluid, unofficial groupings. it can take a matter of hours, you can create a new telegram channel and be able to organise through that. so i think being at the forefront of what we can do in terms of clamping down on criminal incitement and organising

on social media is something we also