rain as well, so poor visibility. —— thick enough for light drizzly rain. temperatures peaking at 2a degrees, 75 per night. however, as we go into sunday, that is when the real heat builds. this should new low—speed tougher and calling _ should new low—speed tougher and calling the two account. and should new low-speed tougher and calling the two account.— calling the two account. and as a bus asks calling the two account. and as a busy asks huw — calling the two account. and as a busy asks huw edwards - calling the two account. and as a busy asks huw edwards to - calling the two account. and as a - busy asks huw edwards to hand back £200,000 of his salary, with the leaders too slow to react? —— has

the bbc. good evening, and welcome to newsnight. we've seen yet again this week the power that words and images online can have in the real world. it started with false facts about the tragic stabbings in southport, became an echo chamber for anger and threats, and was used to rally people towards violent gatherings in towns and cities around the uk. a new 0nline safety act exists, but there are already questions about whether it goes far enough. 0ur panel tonight — tom baldwin, the former labour advisor and author of keir starmer: the biography. and poppy trowbridge — the comms strategist and former special advisor to philip hammond. also with us now, alex holmes, who sits on the global safety advisory boards of several of the biggest social media companies, as well as bloomberg's ellen milligan.

and here's a reminder of what the prime minister had to say earlier about looking again at the laws around social media. today we are due sentencing for online behaviour. that's a reminder to everyone that, whether you are directly involved or whether you are remotely involved, you are culpable and you will be put before the courts if you have broken the law. and so that is happening today, that sentencing. i do agree that we are going to have to look more broadly at social media after this disorder. but the focus at the moment has to be on dealing with the disorder and making sure that our communities are safe and secure. and those sentences have indeed been handed out. today the first person was jailed for social media posts in relation to the disorder. this isjordan parlour, who's 28 and from leeds. he was given a 20—month jail term after pleading guilty to stirring up racial hatred online. ellen, let's start with you.

we have been reporting on the story for the last few days. what is the government planning to do or talking about doing without legislation that does already exist? the? about doing without legislation that does already exist?— about doing without legislation that does already exist? they have been really concerned _ does already exist? they have been really concerned and _ does already exist? they have been really concerned and alarmed - does already exist? they have been really concerned and alarmed that l really concerned and alarmed that the role social media has played in terms of fanning the flames of the violence we have seen in the past week, but only in the misinformation that has been disseminating but the inciting of violence and the hateful content spread online and it comes at a time when there is a regulatory gap so the 0nline safety act is not yet been fully implement it by 0fcom and they released an open letter this week calling on social media firms to limit the harms to users before that is fully implemented but it has left a gap whereby the government is trying to engage with the social media companies and what i have been told is that x has been one of the least cooperative and engaged with helping them although

that has improved slightly in recent days so all of this has prompted a rethink on government and as you heard from keir starmer, they are considering ways in which they can strengthen the way they regulate social media firms.— strengthen the way they regulate social media firms. alex, you have seen this behind _ social media firms. alex, you have seen this behind the _ social media firms. alex, you have seen this behind the scenes, - social media firms. alex, you have seen this behind the scenes, you l seen this behind the scenes, you have certain rooms with this is discussed, just how practical is it to police social media? i discussed, just how practical is it to police social media?— discussed, just how practical is it to police social media? i 'ust want to police social media? i 'ust want to condemn * to police social media? i 'ust want to condemn the h to police social media? i 'ust want to condemn the racist _ to police social media? ijust want to condemn the racist and - to condemn the racist and islamophobic attacks that have harmed — islamophobic attacks that have harmed communities and social media has played _ harmed communities and social media has played a role in that and public safety _ has played a role in that and public safety is _ has played a role in that and public safety is a — has played a role in that and public safety is a priority and it absolutely matters and i am lucky to work with _ absolutely matters and i am lucky to work with a — absolutely matters and i am lucky to work with a number of technology companies, one is a small start—up compared — companies, one is a small start—up compared to— companies, one is a small start—up compared to the big ones but they have shown that they are capable of developing artificial intelligence, training — developing artificial intelligence, training that along with human moderation, and hate speech has patterns — moderation, and hate speech has patterns so you can look for signals and you _ patterns so you can look for signals and you can — patterns so you can look for signals and you can scan the content, whether— and you can scan the content, whether that is keywords or emojis

and you _ whether that is keywords or emojis and you can — whether that is keywords or emojis and you can look at community guidelines and intervene without and even bigger companies, whatsapp, which _ even bigger companies, whatsapp, which is _ even bigger companies, whatsapp, which is owned by meta, it is end—to—end encryption but they can slow down— end—to—end encryption but they can slow down the disinformation and there _ slow down the disinformation and there was— slow down the disinformation and there was an example in india where there _ there was an example in india where there was— there was an example in india where there was a — there was an example in india where there was a clear lynching that came from the _ there was a clear lynching that came from the spread of disinformation on that platform and they imposed a limit to _ that platform and they imposed a limit to the amount of times you can forward _ limit to the amount of times you can forward content that is worldwide and forward content that is worldwide ahd i_ forward content that is worldwide and i am — forward content that is worldwide and i am a — forward content that is worldwide and i am a big fan of... friction. professor— and i am a big fan of... friction. professor about that. in america it is convenience, we want to move fast and irreak— is convenience, we want to move fast and break things and that mean sometimes they do not like to put some _ sometimes they do not like to put some of— sometimes they do not like to put some of that friction, partly because _ some of that friction, partly because of the freedom of speech, but when _ because of the freedom of speech, but when you put things on there, like twitter— but when you put things on there, like twitter and x, when it asks users _ like twitter and x, when it asks users if— like twitter and x, when it asks users if they want to share this content, — users if they want to share this content, it— users if they want to share this content, it allows people to reflect on that _ content, it allows people to reflect on that is — content, it allows people to reflect on that is proven you are less likely— on that is proven you are less likely to — on that is proven you are less

likely to do bad things like set fire to — likely to do bad things like set fire to hotel and we need to have that friction on social media company— that friction on social media company platforms and they are private — company platforms and they are private but actually we have seen clear— private but actually we have seen clear examples elsewhere with technology where they have chosen to prioritise _ technology where they have chosen to prioritise this and that is really important. it prioritise this and that is really important-— prioritise this and that is really important. prioritise this and that is really imortant. , important. it sounds like it can be done so we _ important. it sounds like it can be done so we are _ important. it sounds like it can be done so we are we _ important. it sounds like it can be done so we are we not _ important. it sounds like it can be done so we are we not seeing - important. it sounds like it can bej done so we are we not seeing this being done? why does it feel like reticence on the part of the companies to do this? it is reticence on the part of the companies to do this? it is complex and context — companies to do this? it is complex and context matters _ companies to do this? it is complex and context matters when - companies to do this? it is complex and context matters when it - companies to do this? it is complex and context matters when it comes| companies to do this? it is complex i and context matters when it comes to hate speech _ and context matters when it comes to hate speech and i am not convinced that we _ hate speech and i am not convinced that we have yet defined this in the same _ that we have yet defined this in the same way— that we have yet defined this in the same way we have defined other online _ same way we have defined other online harms so child sexual abuse imagery— online harms so child sexual abuse imagery and the progress that companies like x have made, we have not done _ companies like x have made, we have not done the — companies like x have made, we have not done the same with this disinformation and we need to work more _ disinformation and we need to work more with— disinformation and we need to work more with civil society and ngos that specialise in this to understand that and i think it is a case _ understand that and i think it is a case of— understand that and i think it is a case of government working with 0fcom, _ case of government working with

0fcom, 0fcom has hired a lot of teams _ 0fcom, 0fcom has hired a lot of teams and — 0fcom, 0fcom has hired a lot of teams and have taken a lot of social media _ teams and have taken a lot of social media company employees and we need to understand, is the bill fit for this? _ to understand, is the bill fit for this? and — to understand, is the bill fit for this? and how do we make sure that 0fcom _ this? and how do we make sure that 0fcom is— this? and how do we make sure that 0fcom is strong enough to tackle some _ 0fcom is strong enough to tackle some of these issues we have seen as a result— some of these issues we have seen as a result of disinformation and the rhetoric— a result of disinformation and the rhetoric we have seen on social media — rhetoric we have seen on social media. , ., . ., , media. there is a particular phrase that caused — media. there is a particular phrase that caused problems _ media. there is a particular phrase that caused problems when - media. there is a particular phrase that caused problems when the - media. there is a particular phrase | that caused problems when the bill was going through parliament and it is legal but harmful, difficult to define. ~ ., ., , ., is legal but harmful, difficult to define. ., ., , ., ., is legal but harmful, difficult to define. ., ., ., , define. what does that mean? this caused the torturous _ define. what does that mean? this caused the torturous process - define. what does that mean? this caused the torturous process this l caused the torturous process this act had through parliament and the government wanted to define and regulate legal but harmful content which was to bridge the gap between content that is illegal hate speech, for example, but actually content that was not technically illegal but went some way in terms of causing serious harm and offence and a month after rishi sunak became prime

minister the government dropped the provision for two reasons, there was concern among the conservative backbenchers that this would infringe on free speech and the other, as you said, it is hard to define what is legal but harmful content, not only for the government but the social media companies to then interpret and enforce that definition as well. you are seeing calls from prominent politicians to amend the 0nline safety act, sadiq khan did so yesterday and my understand is that peter kyle is looking at this clause and potentially reintroducing it and i am told the government does not think it is perfect but that it is necessary in terms of bridging the gap in what we have seen in the last two weeks. we gap in what we have seen in the last two weeks. ~ ., , gap in what we have seen in the last two weeks-— two weeks. we have seen sir keir starmer responding _ two weeks. we have seen sir keir starmer responding in _ two weeks. we have seen sir keir starmer responding in the - two weeks. we have seen sir keir starmer responding in the last. two weeks. we have seen sir keir| starmer responding in the last few days to the disorder on the streets, from his background, a legal perspective, he has used the law to try to change things. do you think

he will take this opportunity to change that act and try to refine that based on what we have seen? interesting what he said at the start— interesting what he said at the start of— interesting what he said at the start of this, _ interesting what he said at the start of this, he _ interesting what he said at the start of this, he did _ interesting what he said at the start of this, he did not- interesting what he said at the start of this, he did not think. interesting what he said at the . start of this, he did not think the answer— start of this, he did not think the answer was — start of this, he did not think the answer was reaching _ start of this, he did not think the answer was reaching for- start of this, he did not think the answer was reaching for the - answer was reaching for the legislative _ answer was reaching for the legislative lever— answer was reaching for the legislative lever new- answer was reaching for the| legislative lever new powers answer was reaching for the - legislative lever new powers for police _ legislative lever new powers for police and — legislative lever new powers for police and arresting _ legislative lever new powers for police and arresting people - legislative lever new powers for police and arresting people and | legislative lever new powers for. police and arresting people and so on, police and arresting people and so on. he _ police and arresting people and so on. he said — police and arresting people and so on. he said the— police and arresting people and so on, he said the police _ police and arresting people and so on, he said the police have - police and arresting people and so on, he said the police have got - police and arresting people and so| on, he said the police have got the powers. _ on, he said the police have got the powers. go— on, he said the police have got the powers. 9° out— on, he said the police have got the powers, go out and _ on, he said the police have got the powers, go out and use _ on, he said the police have got the powers, go out and use them - on, he said the police have got the powers, go out and use them on . on, he said the police have got the i powers, go out and use them on the crown prosecution— powers, go out and use them on the crown prosecution needs _ powers, go out and use them on the crown prosecution needs to - powers, go out and use them on the crown prosecution needs to get - crown prosecution needs to get people — crown prosecution needs to get people into _ crown prosecution needs to get people into court, _ crown prosecution needs to get people into court, he _ crown prosecution needs to get people into court, he wanted i crown prosecution needs to getj people into court, he wanted to crown prosecution needs to get - people into court, he wanted to use the legislation— people into court, he wanted to use the legislation that _ people into court, he wanted to use the legislation that is _ people into court, he wanted to use the legislation that is there - people into court, he wanted to use the legislation that is there and - the legislation that is there and none _ the legislation that is there and none of— the legislation that is there and none of this— the legislation that is there and none of this was _ the legislation that is there and none of this was in _ the legislation that is there and none of this was in the - the legislation that is there and - none of this was in the government's first 100 _ none of this was in the government's first 100 days— none of this was in the government's first 100 days plan— none of this was in the government's first 100 days plan and _ none of this was in the government's first 100 days plan and there - none of this was in the government's first 100 days plan and there is - first 100 days plan and there is a real question _ first 100 days plan and there is a real question over— first 100 days plan and there is a real question over how _ first 100 days plan and there is a real question over how much - first 100 days plan and there is a real question over how much of. first 100 days plan and there is a i real question over how much of that lrahdwidth_ real question over how much of that bandwidth they _ real question over how much of that bandwidth they want _ real question over how much of that bandwidth they want to _ real question over how much of that bandwidth they want to use - real question over how much of that bandwidth they want to use on - real question over how much of that bandwidth they want to use on what is incredibly— bandwidth they want to use on what is incredibly difficult _ bandwidth they want to use on what is incredibly difficult legislation, - is incredibly difficult legislation, which _ is incredibly difficult legislation, which might— is incredibly difficult legislation, which might use _ is incredibly difficult legislation, which might use up _ is incredibly difficult legislation, which might use up a _ is incredibly difficult legislation, which might use up a lot- is incredibly difficult legislation, which might use up a lot of- is incredibly difficult legislation, j which might use up a lot of time is incredibly difficult legislation, - which might use up a lot of time and energy— which might use up a lot of time and energyand— which might use up a lot of time and energy and lose _ which might use up a lot of time and energy and lose a _ which might use up a lot of time and energy and lose a lot _ which might use up a lot of time and energy and lose a lot of— which might use up a lot of time and energy and lose a lot of allies. - energy and lose a lot of allies. elon— energy and lose a lot of allies. elon musk— energy and lose a lot of allies. elon musk is _ energy and lose a lot of allies. elon musk is a _ energy and lose a lot of allies. elon musk is a twitter- energy and lose a lot of allies. elon musk is a twitter troll, i energy and lose a lot of allies. | elon musk is a twitter troll, he energy and lose a lot of allies. - elon musk is a twitter troll, he and donald _ elon musk is a twitter troll, he and donald trump _ elon musk is a twitter troll, he and donald trump are _ elon musk is a twitter troll, he and donald trump are the _ elon musk is a twitter troll, he and donald trump are the greatest - donald trump are the greatest twitter— donald trump are the greatest twitter controls _ donald trump are the greatest twitter controls of _ donald trump are the greatest twitter controls of their - donald trump are the greatest - twitter controls of their generation and he _ twitter controls of their generation and he is _ twitter controls of their generation and he is trolling _ twitter controls of their generation and he is trolling the _ twitter controls of their generation and he is trolling the government. | and he is trolling the government. downing _ and he is trolling the government. downing street _ and he is trolling the government. downing street is _ and he is trolling the government. downing street is aware _ and he is trolling the government. downing street is aware that - and he is trolling the government. downing street is aware that theyl and he is trolling the government. . downing street is aware that they do not want _ downing street is aware that they do not want to— downing street is aware that they do

not want to give _ downing street is aware that they do not want to give publicity— downing street is aware that they do not want to give publicity to - downing street is aware that they do not want to give publicity to a - not want to give publicity to a narcissistic— not want to give publicity to a narcissistic billionaire - not want to give publicity to a narcissistic billionaire twitter| narcissistic billionaire twitter troll— narcissistic billionaire twitter troll who _ narcissistic billionaire twitter troll who craves _ narcissistic billionaire twitter troll who craves publicity, . narcissistic billionaire twitterl troll who craves publicity, this narcissistic billionaire twitter. troll who craves publicity, this is about _ troll who craves publicity, this is about regulating _ troll who craves publicity, this is about regulating social - troll who craves publicity, this is about regulating social media i about regulating social media platforms _ about regulating social media platforms as _ about regulating social media platforms as a _ about regulating social media platforms as a whole, - about regulating social media platforms as a whole, it - about regulating social media platforms as a whole, it is . about regulating social medial platforms as a whole, it is not about regulating social media - platforms as a whole, it is notjust about _ platforms as a whole, it is notjust about x— platforms as a whole, it is notjust about x or— platforms as a whole, it is notjust about x or elon _ platforms as a whole, it is notjust about x or elon musk, _ platforms as a whole, it is notjust about x or elon musk, if _ platforms as a whole, it is notjust about x or elon musk, if there - platforms as a whole, it is notjust about x or elon musk, if there are | about x or elon musk, if there are tweaks— about x or elon musk, if there are tweaks that — about x or elon musk, if there are tweaks that need _ about x or elon musk, if there are tweaks that need to _ about x or elon musk, if there are tweaks that need to be _ about x or elon musk, if there are tweaks that need to be done, - about x or elon musk, if there are tweaks that need to be done, do. about x or elon musk, if there are - tweaks that need to be done, do them and 0fcom _ tweaks that need to be done, do them and 0fcom need — tweaks that need to be done, do them and 0fcom need to _ tweaks that need to be done, do them and 0fcom need to stop— and 0fcom need to stop dragging theirfeet and _ and 0fcom need to stop dragging i their feet and implement legislation but do _ their feet and implement legislation but do not necessarily— their feet and implement legislation but do not necessarily use up - their feet and implement legislation but do not necessarily use up all ofl but do not necessarily use up all of your bandwidth _ but do not necessarily use up all of your bandwidth. keir starmer- your bandwidth. keir starmer the other— your bandwidth. keir starmer the other day said _ your bandwidth. keir starmer the other day said there is _ your bandwidth. keir starmer the other day said there is a problemj other day said there is a problem with angry— other day said there is a problem with angry people _ other day said there is a problem with angry people and _ other day said there is a problem with angry people and populist, i other day said there is a problem i with angry people and populist, left and right, _ with angry people and populist, left and right, the— with angry people and populist, left and right, the way— with angry people and populist, left and right, the way to _ with angry people and populist, left and right, the way to beat - with angry people and populist, leftl and right, the way to beat populism, and right, the way to beat populism, and that is— and right, the way to beat populism, and that is what _ and right, the way to beat populism, and that is what these _ and right, the way to beat populism, and that is what these twitter - and that is what these twitter trolls — and that is what these twitter trolls feed _ and that is what these twitter trolls feed off, _ and that is what these twitter trolls feed off, is _ and that is what these twitter trolls feed off, is to _ and that is what these twitter trolls feed off, is to deliver. and that is what these twitter. trolls feed off, is to deliver what labour— trolls feed off, is to deliver what labour is — trolls feed off, is to deliver what labour is talking _ trolls feed off, is to deliver what labour is talking about. - trolls feed off, is to deliver what labour is talking about. better l labour is talking about. better housing, — labour is talking about. better housing, nhs, _ labour is talking about. better housing, nhs, living _ labour is talking about. better. housing, nhs, living standards, labour is talking about. better - housing, nhs, living standards, that actually— housing, nhs, living standards, that actually addresses— housing, nhs, living standards, that actually addresses the _ housing, nhs, living standards, that actually addresses the anger - housing, nhs, living standards, that actually addresses the anger peoplel actually addresses the anger people feel. actually addresses the anger people feel and _ actually addresses the anger people feel and that — actually addresses the anger people feel. and that might— actually addresses the anger people feel. and that might be _ actually addresses the anger people feel. and that might be a _ actually addresses the anger people feel. and that might be a better- actually addresses the anger people| feel. and that might be a better way of spending — feel. and that might be a better way of spending the _ feel. and that might be a better way of spending the government's - feel. and that might be a better way of spending the government's time. of spending the government's time and getting — of spending the government's time and getting into _ of spending the government's time and getting into a _ of spending the government's time and getting into a row— of spending the government's time and getting into a row with - of spending the government's time and getting into a row with elon - and getting into a row with elon musk _ and getting into a row with elon musk l— and getting into a row with elon musk. ., . ., ., ., ., musk. i would echo that, a lot of these issues _ musk. i would echo that, a lot of these issues are _ musk. i would echo that, a lot of

these issues are the _ musk. i would echo that, a lot of these issues are the same - musk. i would echo that, a lot of. these issues are the same online, and the government has had a conversation with the education secretary about tackling misogyny, illiteracy, and that is a valid point that we do not want to use up all of the energy on social media when there are real problems with communities and schools but there is an interesting study about the euro is in 2024 were x and tiktok have had lots of success in aggressively addressing what players face around hate speech so there are things that can be done and i am reminded about that, and when it was twitter, they look to that, 90% of abuse came from the uk accounts so it goes back to a problem with racism we have in society that we need to address, not just online. society that we need to address, not 'ust online. ~ ., ., ., just online. what about that discourse? _ just online. what about that discourse? in _ just online. what about that discourse? in your- just online. what about that. discourse? in your professional just online. what about that - discourse? in your professional life you have experienced the darker side of social media online as well. how much of a priority do you think

these changes should be for the government?— these changes should be for the government? ~ ., , ,, , ., government? what strikes me about what keir starmer _ government? what strikes me about what keir starmer said _ government? what strikes me about what keir starmer said was - government? what strikes me about what keir starmer said was the - what keir starmer said was the simplest sentence, if you are involved, you are involved, whether online or physically, and he is removing the barrier between the metaverse that people might think they can act out involvement in the real world. they can act out involvement in the realworld. i they can act out involvement in the real world. i think that is why we have this act coming down the pipes, it clearly cannot come soon enough but on the details, inciting violence has been illegalfor decades, that is straightforward and we have to start somewhere so let was not stop this be the enemy of a good start, it will be murkier when we decide to do with people spreading disinformation, for example the person who was arrested today for allegedly spreading disinformation about the perpetrator of the stockport attacks has apologised and said he made a terrible mistake. at what point she'd take responsibility? we will not get an answer on that end of the spectrum but we can start at the

beginning, involvement online is involvement in person and incitement to violence remains a legal whether you do that online or in person and they need to be very clear on that in order to be able to make progress. in order to be able to make progress-— in order to be able to make rouress. , ., i. progress. there is also, if you look back over decades, _ progress. there is also, if you look back over decades, over _ progress. there is also, if you lookj back over decades, over centuries, there has been violence, people have managed to come together on the streets and managed to protest against things and there have been riots before social media. where does the history of things, what is our personal responsibility come into this? , , ., ., ., into this? this is a new world and we accept — into this? this is a new world and we accept that. — into this? this is a new world and we accept that, this _ into this? this is a new world and we accept that, this is _ into this? this is a new world and we accept that, this is why - into this? this is a new world and we accept that, this is why we - into this? this is a new world and we accept that, this is why we do | we accept that, this is why we do not know how to apply this act and why we are taking steps to do so but i think the debate we are having, the fact we are calling for this to come into place soon and that it is able to do shows it is able to be something that we are able to do as citizens and educators and journalists and citizens on the

street, it is essential we took part in this competition. it is true that none of this is true but the way we interact with each other is gay because there is no longer a distinction between a face—to—face interaction where you can read the other person's emotions in the conversation evaporates and what you write in black and white that can be shared with millions more, that is no longer between two people, it is publication that can exist forever and can be misinterpreted and the consequences are significantly greater. consequences are significantly creater. . , consequences are significantly ureater. ., , greater. i have been in downing street with _ greater. i have been in downing street with the previous - street with the previous governments and technology companies and there is willingness there but i would say to keir— is willingness there but i would say to keir starmer that nothing should be off— to keir starmer that nothing should be off the table, we nearly saw people — be off the table, we nearly saw people getting burned alive, it was as serious— people getting burned alive, it was as serious as a result of the incitement and police were hurt and families— incitement and police were hurt and families were hurt, it is incredibly serious _ families were hurt, it is incredibly serious so — families were hurt, it is incredibly serious so nothing should be off the table and _ serious so nothing should be off the table and public safety should be a priority— table and public safety should be a priority and we have to come up with solutions— priority and we have to come up with solutions to — priority and we have to come up with solutions to make sure this cannot

happen— solutions to make sure this cannot happen again. we solutions to make sure this cannot happen again-— solutions to make sure this cannot happen again. we might struggle to enact the far— happen again. we might struggle to enact the far end _ happen again. we might struggle to enact the far end of _ happen again. we might struggle to enact the far end of the _ happen again. we might struggle to enact the far end of the spectrum i enact the far end of the spectrum but that is what he said today, you are on my radar and you can no longer behave like this and hope not to be caught. longer behave like this and hope not to be caught-— to be caught. there are silly arguments _ to be caught. there are silly arguments sometimes - to be caught. there are silly| arguments sometimes about to be caught. there are silly - arguments sometimes about free speech— arguments sometimes about free speech and elon musk and trump, they say it is— speech and elon musk and trump, they say it is an _ speech and elon musk and trump, they say it is an absolute right that has never _ say it is an absolute right that has never been — say it is an absolute right that has never been an absolute right and the bbc is _ never been an absolute right and the bbc is regulated, the bbc is better for being _ bbc is regulated, the bbc is better for being regulated and we don't have _ for being regulated and we don't have two— for being regulated and we don't have two of the press is worse for not being — have two of the press is worse for not being regulated and social media is another— not being regulated and social media is another form of media and for too lon- is another form of media and for too long people — is another form of media and for too long people in that internet world, this idea _ long people in that internet world, this idea of freedom of the internet, a thought that this great technological change can go through without— technological change can go through without touching the sides of democracy but democracy needs to reinsert— democracy but democracy needs to reinsert itself. i do democracy but democracy needs to reinsert itself.— reinsert itself. i do not think elon musk is interfering _ reinsert itself. i do not think elon musk is interfering in _ reinsert itself. i do not think elon musk is interfering in democracy, reinsert itself. i do not think elon i musk is interfering in democracy, he is an electioneering, he is just

practising. we will see what unfolds with that... ., , we will see what unfolds with that... , ., that... hope he sticks to his country--- — that... hope he sticks to his country- -- my _ that... hope he sticks to his country... my favourite - that... hope he sticks to his| country... my favourite thing that... hope he sticks to his - country... my favourite thing with lar the country... my favourite thing with larry the cat. _ country... my favourite thing with larry the cat, the _ country... my favourite thing with larry the cat, the downing - country... my favourite thing with larry the cat, the downing street| larry the cat, the downing street cat saying — larry the cat, the downing street cat saying we _ larry the cat, the downing street cat saying we do _ larry the cat, the downing street cat saying we do have _ larry the cat, the downing street cat saying we do have freedom i larry the cat, the downing streetj cat saying we do have freedom of speech— cat saying we do have freedom of speech but— cat saying we do have freedom of speech but don't _ cat saying we do have freedom of speech but don't land _ cat saying we do have freedom of speech but don't land people - cat saying we do have freedom of speech but don't land people to l speech but don't land people to incite violence _ speech but don't land people to incite violence ponder- speech but don't land people to incite violence ponder that - speech but don't land people to incite violence ponder that it i speech but don't land people to incite violence ponder that it isl speech but don't land people tol incite violence ponder that it is a debate _ incite violence ponder that it is a debate to— incite violence ponder that it is a debate to watch! _ incite violence ponder that it is a debate to watch!— incite violence ponder that it is a debate to watch! thank you, we're auoin to debate to watch! thank you, we're going to move _ debate to watch! thank you, we're going to move on _ debate to watch! thank you, we're going to move on to _ debate to watch! thank you, we're going to move on to another - going to move on to another story you will see across quite a few of the front pages tomorrow morning and we will take a look at them soon. the bbc has asked huw edwards to hand back more than £200,000 that he was paid by the corporation as salary after being arrested. the bbc chair, samir shah, emailed staff today — and it was a strongly—worded message. in it he said... and on the decisions taken by the bbc bosses he wrote this...

he called for mr edwards to return hundreds of thousands of pounds in salary paid during the period where the bbc said that he knew what he had done, and said this about a workplace culture review... there is a lot to get into. first of all, i think the language is really striking, describing huw edwards as the billing of the peace but we remember that less than a year ago this was somebody who was one of the most trusted faces at the corporation. it most trusted faces at the corporation.— most trusted faces at the corporation. it is a terrible, tra . ic corporation. it is a terrible, tragic fall — corporation. it is a terrible, tragic fall from _ corporation. it is a terrible,

tragic fall from grace. - corporation. it is a terrible, tragic fall from grace. i i corporation. it is a terrible, tragic fall from grace. ijust praised _ tragic fall from grace. ijust praised the bbc in the earlier segment, i'm now going to slug it off if— segment, i'm now going to slug it off if that's — segment, i'm now going to slug it off if that's all right! i think the bbc is — off if that's all right! i think the bbc is but it's a bit like one of those — bbc is but it's a bit like one of those generals always fighting the last war _ those generals always fighting the last war i— those generals always fighting the last war. i think you got it wrong when _ last war. i think you got it wrong when the — last war. i think you got it wrong when the huw edwards story broke in the first— when the huw edwards story broke in the first place because at that stage — the first place because at that stage the police were saying there was no _ stage the police were saying there was no criminality involved pond but the bbc_ was no criminality involved pond but the bbc were running it at the top of the _ the bbc were running it at the top of the bulletins, i think that was a mistake — of the bulletins, i think that was a mistake. what has happened now is they over— mistake. what has happened now is they over corrected and when they were _ they over corrected and when they were aware that there was criminality, alleged criminality involved. _ criminality, alleged criminality involved, they thought, we mustn't do that— involved, they thought, we mustn't do that again, so they didn't act like a _ do that again, so they didn't act like a news _ do that again, so they didn't act like a news organisation and report it. like a news organisation and report it and _ like a news organisation and report it and i'm — like a news organisation and report it. and i'm sure there's all kind of meetings — it. and i'm sure there's all kind of meetings going on in this building is a very— meetings going on in this building is a very good and worthy people discussing — is a very good and worthy people discussing these things. they do have _ discussing these things. they do have a _ discussing these things. they do have a bit— discussing these things. they do have a bit of a track record of getting — have a bit of a track record of getting these things wrong. and the bbc is public — getting these things wrong. and the bbc is public money, _ getting these things wrong. and the bbc is public money, it's _ getting these things wrong. and the bbc is public money, it's publicly i bbc is public money, it's publicly funded, the national broadcaster and it needs to be held to that higher,

most transparent standards so had that happen? i most transparent standards so had that happen?— that happen? i think it is and i think it tries _ that happen? i think it is and i think it tries its _ that happen? i think it is and i think it tries its best _ that happen? i think it is and i think it tries its best and - that happen? i think it is and i think it tries its best and i'm l that happen? i think it is and i l think it tries its best and i'm not defending the bbc, i agree entirely that they got a lot wrong and namely they failed to zoom out and consider some of the other constituency, the employees in a newsroom who were mis—reporting information because they were not aware, other employees who had made complaints to other press organisations are saying that they had concerns that weren't being listened to. they were focused on one issue at the time and that failure to zoom out, we do see happening over and over again. but in their defence, the corporation, not the news channel, they are living through this in real time in the public eye with an internal reporting mechanism built in. that also is very tricky because these are individuals involved, notjust mr edwards but his family and employees of the bbc and they must be thinking about that. sometimes when you overthink, that can force in action i wonder if that is part of what has contributed to the

mishandling at the beginning and the over correction that tom has observed. to over correction that tom has observed-— over correction that tom has observed. to balance our own condemnation _ observed. to balance our own condemnation of _ observed. to balance our own condemnation of the - observed. to balance our own condemnation of the bbc, i observed. to balance our own i condemnation of the bbc, there is a difference — condemnation of the bbc, there is a difference. there are other news organisations who would never admit mistakes _ organisations who would never admit mistakes and never worry about these things— mistakes and never worry about these things and _ mistakes and never worry about these things and the bbc as an agonised stance _ things and the bbc as an agonised stance of— things and the bbc as an agonised stance of trying to get it right and they do— stance of trying to get it right and they do keep getting it wrong. i would so — they do keep getting it wrong. i would so much prefer to have an organisation which tries to get things— organisation which tries to get things right, which worries about these things, about its responsibility. we talked about elon musk earlier, he doesn't care! he's 'ust musk earlier, he doesn't care! he's just trying — musk earlier, he doesn't care! he's just trying to get publicity. the bbc does try to get it right and they are — bbc does try to get it right and they are right, they are not people who has— they are right, they are not people who has committed crimes, huw edwards— who has committed crimes, huw edwards has committed a crime. the bbc is _ edwards has committed a crime. the bbc is a decent organisation which, in this— bbc is a decent organisation which, in this case, — bbc is a decent organisation which, in this case, has got something wrong — in this case, has got something wrong but — in this case, has got something wrong but people just to kick it all the time — wrong but people just to kick it all the time i— wrong but people 'ust to kick it all the time. ., . wrong but people 'ust to kick it all the time. ,, ., , ., the time. i think that is what the cultural review _ the time. i think that is what the cultural review is _ the time. i think that is what the cultural review is to _ the time. i think that is what the cultural review is to in _ the time. i think that is what the cultural review is to in what i the time. i think that is what the cultural review is to in what theyj cultural review is to in what they flush out, to see what they got one

and see if they're listening and maybe that's the big lesson because they have a lot of people willing to contribute with goodwill their input. i think there were a bit blinkered and it's a very important institution and even though their managers keep getting things wrong, we shouldn't throw them out with the bath water. let's take a quick look at a few of the stories on the front pages... the daily mail goes with that story writ large across the front page. also, it has been a bruising few weeks with the bbc with this other story about graziano di prima from strictly come dancing which has been dogged by controversy. the daily mirror... bbc bosses demand that you edwards give back the pay he raked in, the paper says. the times has a

message from king charles hailing the response to the riots we have seen around the country, particularly praising police officers for the work they have done. also, katarina johnson—thompson on the front page after she won silver in the olympic heptathlon and we will talk about that later. the daily telegraph as that later. the daily telegraph as that story about king charles calling for unity in the wake of the riots. the guardian has a story about higher education, universities are facing tipping point, they say, as the money runs out ponder institutions at risk, they say, could merge and some departments could merge and some departments could even be cut back. and the i we came to malcolm it has rachel reeves eyeing fuel duty hike in the budget but says voters are opposed, something that has been talked about before now with the chancellor considering lifting the 13 year freeze on fuel duty in her first budget when it comes in october. we've spent a lot of the programme

talking about people in powerful positions and the corrupting influence they can have on the world around them. and that, of course, is nothing new. we have been seeing that for centuries. i'm delighted to say the eminent classicist mary beard is with us. mary, your new paperback, emperor of rome, deals with exactly those topics, but thousands of years ago. has much changed? thank heavens, loads has changed. but you can still look at roman emperors and you can think about them for a way in to how we imagine power. what its misuse is, what the response polity of the powerful are so it is a marvellous window for thinking notjust about so it is a marvellous window for thinking not just about those old guys back then in togas but also about our view of ourselves as much as them. �* . about our view of ourselves as much as them. . ., , , ., ,., as them. and what it tells us about the world because _ as them. and what it tells us about the world because what _ as them. and what it tells us about the world because what is - the world because what is interesting with the book, you use

these stories are power and intrigue to actually tell the lives of ordinary people. i to actually tell the lives of ordinary people.— to actually tell the lives of ordinary people. i think what is wonderful— ordinary people. i think what is wonderful about _ ordinary people. i think what is wonderful about roman - ordinary people. i think what is i wonderful about roman emperors is, to start with, you think heavens, you're looking at roman emperors, is itjust going to be about posh old white men in togas? it's partly about them but what is amazing is the way roman emperors open up, this fantastic view people like us in the roman empire. that is partly because roman empire. that is partly because roman emperors, they weren'tjust or powerful remote characters, there were people who were supposed to be approachable pond you were supposed to be able to go to the emperor with your problems. there is a bit of a myth in that, a 50 million people in the roman empire, they couldn't all go to the emperor but a lot of them

did. and what is that we still have some of the records of those problems that they brought to the emperor. you kind of get this little glimpse of the everyday cases in the disparate communities of the empire put my favourite is about some poor slave who, on the coast of modern turkey, was supposed to be throwing the contents of a chamber pot under some nasty hooligans underneath but, this is a little mini riot in a way, he actually dropped the chamber pot and killed the hooligan! was it first degree homicide? well, that case comes to the roman emperor and the emperor says no, justifiable self—defence. that kind of thing is

actually opened up by these apparently distant, or powerful guys. the book really includes a lot of the ordinary as well as the extraordinary.— extraordinary. and i think people are still endlessly _ extraordinary. and i think people are still endlessly fascinated, i are still endlessly fascinated, aren't they, by that?- are still endlessly fascinated, aren't they, by that? they are fascinated _ aren't they, by that? they are fascinated by _ aren't they, by that? they are fascinated by it. _ aren't they, by that? they are fascinated by it. what - aren't they, by that? they are fascinated by it. what i - aren't they, by that? they are fascinated by it. what i think. aren't they, by that? they are | fascinated by it. what i think is amazing is right now, i know the papers are full of riots and also full the new gladiator film papers are full of riots and also full the new gladiatorfilm coming out, there is a remake of caligula the worst 60s movie of all time! and we are drawn to the familiarity and quality of these people. often with it which i think rather boringly, through biographies here is the biography of the emperor augustus followed by tiberias and on and on.

but actually, if you take a wider view and you say, what did people in the roman empire expected their empress? what's the job description of a roman emperor? how do they actually run the show? 50 million people, scotland to syria. how did you possibly make this work? i think then you start to see some of the real essentials are power and also its myths. they probably didn't run its myths. they probably didn't run it very efficiently, actually. speaking of myths, elon musk has quite a lot to say about the roman empire. i quite a lot to say about the roman emire. ., ., ., empire. i had to say that if i was to rive empire. i had to say that if i was to give anybody _ empire. i had to say that if i was to give anybody a _ empire. i had to say that if i was to give anybody a warning - empire. i had to say that if i wasl to give anybody a warning tonight empire. i had to say that if i was i to give anybody a warning tonight i would say that if ever they see a tweet from musk saying anything about the roman empire go and do a bit of research!— bit of research! check it with you first! nine _ bit of research! check it with you first! nine times _ bit of research! check it with you first! nine times out _ bit of research! check it with you first! nine times out of ten - bit of research! check it with you first! nine times out of ten it i bit of research! check it with you first! nine times out of ten it is i first! nine times out of ten it is sheer rubbish! _

first! nine times out of ten it is sheer rubbish! i _ first! nine times out of ten it is sheer rubbish! i was _ first! nine times out of ten it is sheer rubbish! i was wondering j first! nine times out of ten it is i sheer rubbish! i was wondering that the as lum sheer rubbish! i was wondering that the asylum seekers _ sheer rubbish! i was wondering that the asylum seekers in _ sheer rubbish! i was wondering that i the asylum seekers in that rotherham hotel could _ the asylum seekers in that rotherham hotel could have employed the chamber— hotel could have employed the chamber pot deterrent about the people _ chamber pot deterrent about the people beneath trying to kill on the other— people beneath trying to kill on the other day! — i don't think there are very many lessons in the roman empire, we have, a bit, thank heavens. they had riots but they didn't have a police force. i think it helps you count your blessings. as well as wonder about the similarities. i your blessings. as well as wonder about the similarities.— your blessings. as well as wonder about the similarities. i wanted to ask ou about the similarities. i wanted to ask you about that _ about the similarities. i wanted to ask you about that story _ about the similarities. i wanted to ask you about that story that i about the similarities. i wanted to ask you about that story that was | about the similarities. i wanted to i ask you about that story that was on the front page of the guardian tomorrow about higher education in trouble, universities running out of money, the idea of departments being merged. i know you're notjust passionate about your subject but sharing it and education so does that make you nervous? yes

sharing it and education so does that make you nervous? yes have to sa , i'm that make you nervous? yes have to say. l'm retired _ that make you nervous? yes have to say, i'm retired so _ that make you nervous? yes have to say, i'm retired so i'm _ that make you nervous? yes have to say, i'm retired so i'm out _ that make you nervous? yes have to say, i'm retired so i'm out of - say, i'm retired so i'm out of this so you get an old lady's view here! but i think that story in the guardian is very important. and what has been happening recently is we have not noticed, we have chosen not to look at how successful british universities are. four out of ten of the top ten ranked universities in the top ten ranked universities in the world are british. what do we hear about here? we hear about how there is no point in going to university because you won't get a high enough salary, that all that is happening on campuses is cancel culture. i accept there is some of that, that campuses are conflictual places and they should be, they are arguing about things. but we have come away with the idea that somehow that british universities are no good. in fact, they are absolutely

amazing. i thought one of the real symbols i will take away from the recent riots, which kind of to be bolstered up the importance of education, with the idea that one of the things that was attacked by those louts was a library. actually, libraries come in whatever new form they are, is what we need to more education is what we need and we need to be proud of our universities. notjust to universities. not just to underfunded universities. notjust to underfunded them. basically, it's about resource, underfunding. i about resource, underfunding. i wanted to squeeze in a tiny chat about something which actually survives from ancient times which we have seen in the last couple of weeks which is the olympics. with those originators of the olympics recognise what we're seeing? i’m recognise what we're seeing? i'm they would! _ recognise what we're seeing? i“n they would! we had a very glowing view of the ancient 0lympic they would! we had a very glowing view of the ancient olympic games, that everybody was just competing for the honour and they didn't really care about the prizes or the

fame. actually, it was pretty