here's darren.

the us secretary of state has cancelled his trip to the middle east tonight. is iran about to ignore pleas from western leaders and strike back against israel? and — sunday saw the most people arriving on small boats on a single day since labour came to power. does the new government have a deterrent? hello and welcome to newsnight, the place for thought—provoking interviews and conversation. america's top diplomat, the us secretary of state,

was due to fly to the middle east tonight, but antony blinken has postponed his trip, over "uncertainty in the region." that uncertainty is felt around the world, as the wait goes on to see if or how iran plans to retaliate after the assassination of the leader of hamas in tehran last month. on our panel tonight to discuss this and other news, conservative peer lord shaun bailey and deputy editor of the house magazine, sienna rodgers. joining us first, the iranian academic afshin shahi, an associate professor in middle east politics and international relations at keele university. and gina abercrombie winstanley, was the us ambassador to malta, and is president of the washington—based middle east policy council. thank you both for coming on newsnight. the briefings have been going on until recently that antony blinken was going to the middle east. he has now cancelled. how

perilous does that suggest the situation is? it perilous does that suggest the situation is?— situation is? it is quite telling. what we see _ situation is? it is quite telling. what we see at _ situation is? it is quite telling. what we see at the _ situation is? it is quite telling. what we see at the moment i situation is? it is quite telling. | what we see at the moment in situation is? it is quite telling. - what we see at the moment in the region is a climate of uncertainty. it's not only about uncertainty. only today on tuesday for the first time after a very long time, hamas directly targeted tel aviv. at the same time, the tensions are rising and they are rising extremely fast between hezbollah and israel and at the same time, as you mentioned, for at least two weeks the islamic republic have been talking about an imminent attack. obviously that has created a sense of uncertainty, not only in israel, not only in lebanon but across the region. find only in israel, not only in lebanon but across the region.— but across the region. and as a reader of _ but across the region. and as a reader of these _ but across the region. and as a reader of these things, - but across the region. and as a reader of these things, how - but across the region. and as a reader of these things, how do | but across the region. and as a - reader of these things, how do you assess it in terms of the past and now? in assess it in terms of the past and now? , ., ., ., now? in terms of iranian retaliation? _ now? in terms of iranian retaliation? in _ now? in terms of iranian retaliation? in terms - now? in terms of iranian retaliation? in terms ofl now? in terms of iranian i retaliation? in terms of the precariousness _ retaliation? in terms of the precariousness of - retaliation? in terms of the precariousness of the -

retaliation? in terms of the - precariousness of the situation, how serious is it? i’ee precariousness of the situation, how serious is it?— serious is it? i've been following the situation _ serious is it? i've been following the situation and _ serious is it? i've been following the situation and the _ serious is it? i've been following the situation and the middle - serious is it? i've been following| the situation and the middle east for a very, very long time. particularly i've been following the relationship, the very problematic relationship, the very problematic relationship between iran and israel. this has gone on for a long time. i have to be honest and frank, i've never seen it actually this sensitive. this is probably the most serious moment that we have been experiencing during this conflict, this ongoing cold war between iran and israel. and for this reason, experiencing this climate of uncertainty in the region. sorry, if something happens between iran and israel, if iran decides to attack israel, if iran decides to attack israel today, it's not only going to have implications for israel. it's not only going to have implications for gaza and lebanon. effectively, potentially the rest of the region very quickly can be implicated. and

given the geopolitical significance of the middle east, something like that can have serious consequences for all of us. that can have serious consequences for all of us— for all of us. and gina, let me brina for all of us. and gina, let me bring you _ for all of us. and gina, let me bring you income _ for all of us. and gina, let me bring you income here. - for all of us. and gina, let me| bring you income here. you've for all of us. and gina, let me - bring you income here. you've been involved in the state department over the years. given how high the stakes are, what would it have taken for antony blinken to pull out, do you think? for antony blinken to pull out, do ou think? ~ ., for antony blinken to pull out, do you think?— you think? well, i think the situation — you think? well, i think the situation with _ you think? well, i think the situation with the _ you think? well, i think the - situation with the negotiations, i'd say starting with the selection of yahya _ say starting with the selection of yahya sinwar as the head of hamas, thrat's— yahya sinwar as the head of hamas, that's a _ yahya sinwar as the head of hamas, that's a strong and telling signal that's a strong and telling signal that they— that's a strong and telling signal that they are committed to the end. israel's _ that they are committed to the end. israel's assassination, reported assassination of the more moderate leader_ assassination of the more moderate leader of— assassination of the more moderate leader of hamas sent a very strong signal— leader of hamas sent a very strong signal as— leader of hamas sent a very strong signal as well. why would hamas continue — signal as well. why would hamas continue to negotiate if, indeed, regardless of those negotiations, they don't have, as the israelis

have _ they don't have, as the israelis have made clear, a bull's—eye on their— have made clear, a bull's—eye on their heads? for the secretary go, he had _ their heads? for the secretary go, he had to— their heads? for the secretary go, he had to have some hope of bringing something home. and increasingly that looks — something home. and increasingly that looks unlikely. and when you put that looks unlikely. and when you out us _ that looks unlikely. and when you put us prestige on the line, the secretary— put us prestige on the line, the secretary of state engaging, then you have — secretary of state engaging, then you have to have something to show for it _ you have to have something to show for it i_ you have to have something to show for it ithink— you have to have something to show for it. i think that decision, along with raised — for it. i think that decision, along with raised tensions in the region, and as— with raised tensions in the region, and as you — with raised tensions in the region, and as you are the guest said, the regional— and as you are the guest said, the regional nature of this is already in placem — regional nature of this is already in place... we've had exchanges of attacks _ in place... we've had exchanges of attacks between iraqi and forces in syria and _ attacks between iraqi and forces in syria and yemen and lebanon as well as israel— syria and yemen and lebanon as well as lsrael and — syria and yemen and lebanon as well as israel and the gaza strip. so the regional nature is already there. but for— regional nature is already there. but for all—out open war, that hasn't — but for all—out open war, that hasn't yet _ but for all—out open war, that hasn't yet come to pass and that's what _ hasn't yet come to pass and that's what people are concerned about now. she was _ what people are concerned about now. she was saying about... antony blinken's decision is about thinking they aren't going to get what they

want by going there. do you think there's any chance that they will be new intelligence, that they've heard something that means they've cancelled the trip? it’s something that means they've cancelled the trip? it's possible. of course you — cancelled the trip? it's possible. of course you have _ cancelled the trip? it's possible. of course you have to _ cancelled the trip? it's possible. | of course you have to remember cancelled the trip? it's possible. - of course you have to remember that israel successfully have been able to infiltrate into iranian security and political infrastructure so it is very likely that if iran makes a decision to attack israel, that israeli intelligence on the ground will probably know a lot earlier about it and probably can send a signal outside. so this could be a possibility. to be honest, as you said, a lot of people were expecting this to happen, they were expecting him and all of a sudden he decided to cancel his trip. the only thing that leapt to my mind, possibly there is something that we don't know. because they are talking about the climate of uncertainty about the climate of uncertainty they are talking about has been in place for at least two weeks. so there must be

an additional reason that he's decided to postpone his trip. i personally think it could be related to an additional intelligence that the possibility of iranian attack, either direct attack or from hezbollah, is more likely. gina, how can this situation _ hezbollah, is more likely. gina, how can this situation be _ hezbollah, is more likely. gina, how can this situation be diffused? - hezbollah, is more likely. gina, how can this situation be diffused? can i can this situation be diffused? can the us and a potential conflict between israel and iran before it begins? it’s between israel and iran before it beains? fl ., between israel and iran before it beains? �*, ., ., ., ., begins? it's going to take more than the us to get _ begins? it's going to take more than the us to get this _ the us to get this resolved. unfortunately right now you've got two leaders that are holding back from _ two leaders that are holding back from the — two leaders that are holding back from the ceasefire, that is yahya sinwar— from the ceasefire, that is yahya sinwar on — from the ceasefire, that is yahya sinwar on hamas's side and prime minister— sinwar on hamas's side and prime minister netanyahu on the israeli side _ minister netanyahu on the israeli side we — minister netanyahu on the israeli side. we have long suspected, we saw reports _ side. we have long suspected, we saw reports in _ side. we have long suspected, we saw reports in the new york times today about— reports in the new york times today about documentation that shows that the prime _ about documentation that shows that the prime minister changed the positions — the prime minister changed the positions of the israeli delegation

as they— positions of the israeli delegation as they were negotiating, but it has been discussed in the israeli press for weeks — been discussed in the israeli press for weeks now. so, showing that he hasn't _ for weeks now. so, showing that he hasn't been — for weeks now. so, showing that he hasn't been negotiating in good faith _ hasn't been negotiating in good faith. this is something, as you'll recall— faith. this is something, as you'll recall early — faith. this is something, as you'll recall early in the conflict, the prime minister actually came out and said, prime minister actually came out and said. i_ prime minister actually came out and said. i have _ prime minister actually came out and said, i have prevented the establishment of the palestinian state _ establishment of the palestinian state and this is something the us has been — state and this is something the us has been working with him on for 17 years. _ has been working with him on for 17 years. to _ has been working with him on for 17 years, to get to the two state solution — years, to get to the two state solution and he came out and said he was not _ solution and he came out and said he was not working in good faith. so, this concern — was not working in good faith. so, this concern is not a new one when it comes _ this concern is not a new one when it comes to— this concern is not a new one when it comes to this particular prime minister~ — it comes to this particular prime minister. the united states does not control— minister. the united states does not control either one of these leaders. israel— control either one of these leaders. lsrael is _ control either one of these leaders. lsrael is a _ control either one of these leaders. israel is a sovereign state, hamas is a terrorist — israel is a sovereign state, hamas is a terrorist organisation and unless— is a terrorist organisation and unless and until they want this war to end. _ unless and until they want this war to end. or— unless and until they want this war to end, or until the unless and until they want this war to end, or untilthe international community— to end, or untilthe international community as a whole, not just the us, because — community as a whole, not just the us, because it's notjust the us that is— us, because it's notjust the us that is supporting either hamas or

lsrael. _ that is supporting either hamas or israel, says enough is enough and is willing _ israel, says enough is enough and is willing to _ israel, says enough is enough and is willing to take steps to implement that, whether it is how the israelis are being — that, whether it is how the israelis are being supported with military supplies. — are being supported with military supplies, diplomatic cover or diplomatic relations with the states in the _ diplomatic relations with the states in the region and beyond. i diplomatic relations with the states in the region and beyond.— diplomatic relations with the states in the region and beyond. i think we can see what _ in the region and beyond. i think we can see what joe — in the region and beyond. i think we can see what joe biden, _ in the region and beyond. i think we can see what joe biden, the - can see whatjoe biden, the president of america... he has been talking in the last few hours and he's essentially been saying that a ceasefire deal in gaza could deter iran from attacking israel in retaliation. see what iran does and see what happens, if any attack. but i'm not giving up. do you have any understanding that iran could cease or stop doing - an action if a ceasefire deal is possible? - that's my expectation but we'll see. thank you. gina, listening to that, if you could hear it, what do you make of

that? is he right? i could hear it, what do you make of that? is he right?— that? is he right? i think that the resident that? is he right? i think that the president has _ that? is he right? i think that the president has additional- that? is he right? | think that the | president has additional knowledge and so _ president has additional knowledge and so he _ president has additional knowledge and so he probably is right. if you recall. _ and so he probably is right. if you recall. all— and so he probably is right. if you recall. all of— and so he probably is right. if you recall, all of the activity, whether it's from — recall, all of the activity, whether it's from hezbollah or the houthis, and iran— it's from hezbollah or the houthis, and iran and syria, it is all because _ and iran and syria, it is all because of the conflict between israel— because of the conflict between israel and the palestinians. getting to a ceasefire takes away the excuse for the _ to a ceasefire takes away the excuse for the rest — to a ceasefire takes away the excuse for the rest of it. that's why the us and — for the rest of it. that's why the us and our— for the rest of it. that's why the us and our partners in europe, in the region. — us and our partners in europe, in the region, have been saying that this ceasefire is the core, the central— this ceasefire is the core, the central way to figure out an end to the conflict. we've been saying that there _ the conflict. we've been saying that there is— the conflict. we've been saying that there is no— the conflict. we've been saying that there is no military solution to this we — there is no military solution to this. i've been saying that since i was a _ this. i've been saying that since i was a young diplomat. it has to be through— was a young diplomat. it has to be through negotiations, a two state solution _ through negotiations, a two state solution between these two people

who share the land. the ceasefire is core, _ who share the land. the ceasefire is core. but _ who share the land. the ceasefire is core. but the — who share the land. the ceasefire is core, but the prime minister is definitely— core, but the prime minister is definitely being questioned by all of us _ definitely being questioned by all of us as— definitely being questioned by all of us as to whether he is seriously interested — of us as to whether he is seriously interested in that ceasefire. you're talkinu interested in that ceasefire. you're talking about _ interested in that ceasefire. you're talking about the _ interested in that ceasefire. you're talking about the prime _ interested in that ceasefire. you're talking about the prime minister i interested in that ceasefire. you'rej talking about the prime minister of israel. just to lay it out for us tonight, where do you think israel is and where do you think iran is in terms of their thinking and whether this will escalate or not? you know, the lslamic — this will escalate or not? you know, the islamic republic _ this will escalate or not? you know, the islamic republic of _ this will escalate or not? you know, the islamic republic of iran - this will escalate or not? you know, the islamic republic of iran is - this will escalate or not? you know, the islamic republic of iran is left i the islamic republic of iran is left between the devil and the deep blue c. whatever they do, there will be serious consequences. if they attack, they will be consequences. right now as we talk iran is faced with a lot of major, economic issues. every year at least $5 billion are lost only because of the power cuts. iran is facing a lot of fundamental challenges. and they know, should they retaliate against israel, there will be serious

consequences. at the same time, they know that if they don't attack, if they don't project power, if they don't flex their muscles, there will be consequences as well. we shouldn't forget that iran, the islamic republic is facing a profound crisis of legitimacy at home. so they are desperately trying to save face in front of their supporters in the region and the militia in the region. if you look at the news outlets associated with these proxy forces across the region, overthe these proxy forces across the region, over the last few days they have constantly been going on and on and talking about the imminent revenge and iran is definitely going to attack. in this situation, it iran decides to adopt —— if iran decides not to show its muscles, there will be serious consequences. this is making the situation problematic. for israel, the situation is a bit different. of course we know that israel has the most effective air force in the region, the most effective air

defences in the region but at the same time we cannot deny the fact that there are limitations. so should iran retaliate, in this situation, probably other important actors in the region are going to be involved as well including the united states. and the other factor, very quickly, the elephant in the room, the iranian nuclear programme. although israel may not 100% embrace the possibility of conflict, should the possibility of conflict, should the opportunity arise, they may use this opportunity to basically target some of the nuclear sites in iran which is obviously making them extremely concerned. about the possibility of iran reaching weapons of mass destruction. {lilia possibility of iran reaching weapons of mass destruction.— possibility of iran reaching weapons of mass destruction. coming up, we speak to the photo—journalist who took this photo of new year's eve in manchester in 2015. in recent weeks, joel goodman's been

covering the riots in england. south yorkshire police is considering legal action to force him to hand over all his photos of the riot outside the holiday inn in rotherham on the ltth of august. we'll hear from joel goodman in a few minutes about why he's not complying with the request — he says it would infringe an important principle of media freedom. what's labour's plan to tackle the small boats bringing asylum seekers across the channel, other than a determination to smash the smuggling gangs behind the trade and establishing a new border command? on sunday, 703 people crossed the channel in small boats according to the home office, the largest single day figure since labour came to power. more than 5,000 people have crossed since labour came to power just over a month ago. that is almost identical to the number who crossed in the same period in 2023. after last month's election, the government axed the rwanda scheme, the conservatives' preferred, albeit untested, solution.

but does labour have a deterrent? we asked the government to come on, but no—one was available. let's discuss with our panel. shaun, labour have been in powerfor just a month how long would you give them until you say that their plan is a failure when it comes to this? they have only been in charge for a month so no one could blame them for the first 5000 but people now will be counting and they are in this position now, they got rid of the rwanda scheme but they do not have a response and certainly no deterrent that they have articulated to the public. so they're burning through goodwill very quickly. i think what they will find is the conservative government were impotent in many cases with small boats but now they are finding it is a tougher problem than they imagined. you cannotjust put tell people to stop and they will comply. put tell people to stop and they will comply-— put tell people to stop and they will coml . ,, ., .,, , will comply. keir starmer has been s-ueakin will comply. keir starmer has been speaking with _ will comply. keir starmer has been speaking with the _ will comply. keir starmer has been speaking with the italian _ will comply. keir starmer has been speaking with the italian prime - speaking with the italian prime minister about organising an anglo

italian plan and with europe all? he is italian plan and with europe all? he: is correct in one sense that the response to migration has got to be international, that is correct. i think he will fail though if he talks about smashing the gangs is too late once people are in europe, you need to smash the gangs at the point of origin and the only way to do that is if you have a strong relationship with the country of origin. that is who she should be speaking to the more he speaks about the plan and the less is working than the quicker he will find himself in trouble.- than the quicker he will find himself in trouble. sienna what is our view himself in trouble. sienna what is your view on _ himself in trouble. sienna what is your view on when _ himself in trouble. sienna what is your view on when the _ himself in trouble. sienna what is your view on when the public - himself in trouble. sienna what is l your view on when the public needs to see progress on small boats? labour has said it will get worse before it gets better but i suppose the question is is it going to get better? ,, ., better? keir starmer has been manauuin better? keir starmer has been managing expectations - better? keir starmer has been managing expectations and i managing expectations and acknowledging that i think as we've seen the _ acknowledging that i think as we've seen the weather is the biggest factor— seen the weather is the biggest factor in — seen the weather is the biggest factor in small boat crossings and it gets _ factor in small boat crossings and it gets worse over the summer and he is letting _ it gets worse over the summer and he is letting everyone know that is the case so _

is letting everyone know that is the case so they expect that. i think people — case so they expect that. i think people will give the new labour government a bit of breathing space to deal— government a bit of breathing space to deal with the issue. they have not had _ to deal with the issue. they have not had much of a honeymoon, there has been _ not had much of a honeymoon, there has been a _ not had much of a honeymoon, there has been a domestic crisis, this huge _ has been a domestic crisis, this huge camera foreign affairs crisis at the _ huge camera foreign affairs crisis at the same time, a massively challenging context for a new prime challenging context fora new prime minister— challenging context for a new prime minister to— challenging context for a new prime minister to come into but yes eventually they will have to see progress. i think probably that will look like. — progress. i think probably that will look like. i— progress. i think probably that will look like, i mean the crossings probably— look like, i mean the crossings probably will get better in the winter~ — probably will get better in the winter. because the weather is so important — winter. because the weather is so important. probably we need to give it a year— important. probably we need to give it a year to _ important. probably we need to give it a year to see this new uk security border command actually start to _ security border command actually start to get up and running. you have _ start to get up and running. you have to — start to get up and running. you have to hire thousands of people to specialise _ have to hire thousands of people to specialise in this. but also as you mention— specialise in this. but also as you mention those discussions with giorgia — mention those discussions with giorgia meloni are more important, that kind _ giorgia meloni are more important, that kind of— giorgia meloni are more important, that kind of international cooperation in the fact that he has shown— cooperation in the fact that he has shown willing to work so closely with someone whose politics are so different _ with someone whose politics are so different to his own is encouraging.

i different to his own is encouraging. i suppose _ different to his own is encouraging. i suppose this is an issue for the conservatives too, with a leadership election going on. what would you like to see from whoever is elected as conservative leader? is it about leaving the european convention on human rights for example? i do not think anyone — human rights for example? i do not think anyone wants _ human rights for example? i do not think anyone wants to _ human rights for example? i do not think anyone wants to migrate - think anyone wants to migrate to britain legally or illegally would be thinking about the european convention of human rights, they are thinking about how easily i can get in, are the streets paved with gold? so a red herring? it does not deal with the issue of who wants to come here and why. and the trouble i think all political parties have is you need a deterrent and for a long time in this country we have spoken about immigration is if we can stop it by force of will. but no, you need what i call some kind of policy waiting and that need some kind of deterrent. and that is the problem for keir starmer, good to have

friends around the world like the italians but that is not a deterrent and most people come here would not fact that relationship into coming here. we need something to stand in people's way. what keir starmer has done is remove any deterrent and that sent a message as well. because these are gangs of people who make millions per year who carry the propaganda back.— propaganda back. most of the candidates — propaganda back. most of the candidates are _ propaganda back. most of the candidates are going - propaganda back. most of the candidates are going for - propaganda back. most of the l candidates are going for leaving propaganda back. most of the - candidates are going for leaving the echr, i wonder what you think about it personally? and who you're going for, who do you want to be tory leader? 50 for, who do you want to be tory leader? ., ., ., , ., , leader? so who i want to be tory leader? so who i want to be tory leader l've _ leader? so who i want to be tory leader l've yet — leader? so who i want to be tory leader i've yet to _ leader? so who i want to be tory leader i've yet to decide, - leader? so who i want to be tory leader i've yet to decide, a - leader? so who i want to be tory leader i've yet to decide, a few. leader i've yet to decide, a few candidates stick out like kemi badenoch and robertjenrick but we have a hustings in the house of lords and we are able to get under the issues. what i'm looking for is someone who understands it is not enough to say bring people together but you need to do that and have a reason for existing, what is the

conservative party for and what we need, what is our voter coalition, that is what i want to see also someone who will take on the labour party. the labour party to my mind has of things its own way. and that needs strong leadership to turn it around. ,, ., ., , , around. sienna rogers, we see riotin: around. sienna rogers, we see rioting on _ around. sienna rogers, we see rioting on our— around. sienna rogers, we see rioting on our streets _ around. sienna rogers, we see rioting on our streets and - around. sienna rogers, we see rioting on our streets and the l around. sienna rogers, we see. rioting on our streets and the far right using immigration as justification for the unrest but polling suggests it is one of the biggest concerns for a significant number of the population? what biggest concerns for a significant number of the population? what has ha--ened number of the population? what has happened in — number of the population? what has happened in recent _ number of the population? what has happened in recent years _ number of the population? what has happened in recent years is - number of the population? what has happened in recent years is the - happened in recent years is the conservatives have done a good job of raising _ conservatives have done a good job of raising awareness of the issue of immigration so that is at the top people's— immigration so that is at the top people's minds and yet they've done nothing _ people's minds and yet they've done nothing to— people's minds and yet they've done nothing to bring numbers down on the fact that _ nothing to bring numbers down on the fact that got up to record high and that leaves the labour government with a _ that leaves the labour government with a difficult situation. where it is politically fraught for them as well those high numbers. and the riots absolutely a huge challenge for keir _ riots absolutely a huge challenge for keir starmer. i do feel that he reacted _ for keir starmer. i do feel that he

reacted by— for keir starmer. i do feel that he reacted by kind of retreating to his past as— reacted by kind of retreating to his past as a _ reacted by kind of retreating to his past as a former director of public prosecutions, going back to that kind of— prosecutions, going back to that kind of legal response of being very tough _ kind of legal response of being very tough on _ kind of legal response of being very tough on law and order and it seemed as if that _ tough on law and order and it seemed as if that response did work and was effective _ as if that response did work and was effective in— as if that response did work and was effective in quelling the rights but ithink— effective in quelling the rights but i think what needs to happen next is a bit more _ i think what needs to happen next is a bit more political leadership and that is— a bit more political leadership and that is what we do not seen so much from _ that is what we do not seen so much from the _ that is what we do not seen so much from the prime minister yet. as you say people — from the prime minister yet. as you say people from the government were asked _ say people from the government were asked to _ say people from the government were asked to command but did not. perhaps — asked to command but did not. perhaps they will one day soon. stick with us. everyone will remember the images of rioting and looting that unfolded across parts of england and northern ireland in recent weeks. some of the people who went on the rampage woke up to find pictures of their criminality appearing online and in the media for all to see. the police investigating what happened view those images as useful evidence — but when south yorkshire police asked freelance photographer joel goodman to hand over pictures he took of the disorder in rotherham, he refused. joeljoins us from salford.

hello, let's just start with where you were and what did you see, what were you photographing and how frightening was it? what were you photographing and how frightening was it?— were you photographing and how frightening was it? what i saw was hundreds probably _ frightening was it? what i saw was hundreds probably thousands - frightening was it? what i saw was hundreds probably thousands of i hundreds probably thousands of people surrounding a hotel trying to smash their way into the hotel. setting fires around the fire exit of the hotel. fighting with police and throwing rocks and bricks. just quite horrific violence. find and throwing rocks and bricks. just quite horrific violence.— quite horrific violence. and your photographs — quite horrific violence. and your photographs l — quite horrific violence. and your photographs i think _ quite horrific violence. and your photographs i think have - quite horrific violence. and your photographs i think have been l photographs i think have been published widely across the media? yes. ~ . , , yes. where have they been? everywhere. _ yes. where have they been? everywhere. l _ yes. where have they been? everywhere, i mean - yes. where have they been? everywhere, i mean withoutl yes. where have they been? - everywhere, i mean without wishing to sound sort of... x�*t�*ou everywhere, i mean without wishing to sound sort of. . ._ to sound sort of... you are allowed to sound sort of... you are allowed to no to sound sort of... you are allowed to go your — to sound sort of... you are allowed to go your own _ to sound sort of... you are allowed to go your own trumpet! _ to sound sort of. .. you are allowed to go your own trumpet! i - to sound sort of... you are allowed to go your own trumpet! i think i to sound sort of... you are allowed j to go your own trumpet! i think the oint to go your own trumpet! i think the point being — to go your own trumpet! i think the point being that — to go your own trumpet! i think the point being that the _ to go your own trumpet! i think the point being that the coverage i to go your own trumpet! i think the point being that the coverage that l point being that the coverage that has been gained has been partly because i could work freely as much as possible within that situation.

and because i can work freely that means i can get the images that tell the story, the more dangerous it becomes to work in those kind of situation is the harder it is to get those images. find situation is the harder it is to get those images-— those images. and that ties into what we're _ those images. and that ties into what we're talking _ those images. and that ties into what we're talking about - those images. and that ties into | what we're talking about because those images. and that ties into i what we're talking about because the police had been in touch with you about those pictures, what have they asked you for, what are they saying? they asked me if they could see all the pictures i took that day. i said no and explained both in terms of the procedural aspects of the police and criminal evidence act but also in terms ofjournalistic ethics way thatis in terms ofjournalistic ethics way that is a problem. they said they would consult their legal team and then came back to say that they would proceed for a judge to issue an orderfor me would proceed for a judge to issue an order for me to would proceed for a judge to issue an orderfor me to hand them over. in my experience this is something that the police do but media organisations find it butjust explain to people watching what you said no? ~ . ,

explain to people watching what you said no? ~ ., , ,.,�* explain to people watching what you said no? ~ ., , i. �* ., said no? what is it you're worried about? just _ said no? what is it you're worried about? just quickly _ said no? what is it you're worried about? just quickly on _ said no? what is it you're worried about? just quickly on that i said no? what is it you're worried about? just quickly on that point, big media organisations have the resource and backing to be able to cover their people working on the street because i'm freelance i do not have that backing so obviously i should, i would love to be able to rely on that but it is not available to me. in terms of why i said no, there is a very important point which is thatjournalists must not be seen to be police officers, we must not be seen to be acting on behalf of the police. it is a fundamental trust issue, if people perceive me as working in the interest of the police then when i need to interview someone or photograph someone in need than to trust me that what they tell me on or off the record isjust trust me that what they tell me on or off the record is just that, trust me that what they tell me on or off the record isjust that, if they think that actually this will end up in the hands of the police they will not trust me. so end up in the hands of the police they will not trust me.— they will not trust me. so what would you _ they will not trust me. so what would you say _ they will not trust me. so what would you say to _ they will not trust me. so what would you say to people i they will not trust me. so what would you say to people who i they will not trust me. so what i would you say to people who say hold on if i pictures of people breaking the law i think i would hand them over? . , , the law i think i would hand them over? ., , , ., the law i think i would hand them over? ., , j over? that is up to then, if they're not working _ over? that is up to then, if they're not working as _ over? that is up to then, if they're not working as a _ over? that is up to then, if they're not working as a photojournalist i over? that is up to then, if they're i not working as a photojournalist and will not be meeting the same people again or asking someone else to

trust and that could work well for me when i and my colleagues and that is the other things well, it is not just me, next time it will not be me but one of my colleagues he was assaulted for being a copper�*s not. it is not against the police who i thought worked incredibly hard in rotherham. it is about protecting myself and my colleagues that come next from being perceived as being working for the police. it next from being perceived as being working for the police.— working for the police. it really is that simple- _ working for the police. it really is that simple. because _ working for the police. it really is that simple. because if— working for the police. it really is that simple. because if you i working for the police. it really is that simple. because if you are i that simple. because if you are perceived as working for the police, do you feel that your safety would be under threat? it do you feel that your safety would be under threat?— do you feel that your safety would be under threat? it is. i mean that exists anyway. _ be under threat? it is. i mean that exists anyway. so _ be under threat? it is. i mean that exists anyway, so in _ be under threat? it is. i mean that exists anyway, so in a situation i exists anyway, so in a situation like that no one is really happy to be photographed any more than they are happy to be arrested. but that is the situation i go into and i know that. but then you multiply it by an additional risk and i think if you're someone who is both hostile towards being identified and also who perceives someone is acting on

behalf of the enemy, that is a bigger problem. and then i come to it the next day when i speak to someone not in a situation like that but i need than to trust me that i say their image will be anonymized because they are in trouble for something else, they need to trust me that i will keep to my word and their identity will not be revealed against their wishes. fin a their identity will not be revealed against their wishes.— against their wishes. on a more superficial— against their wishes. on a more superficial note _ against their wishes. on a more superficial note i _ against their wishes. on a more superficial note i was _ against their wishes. on a more j superficial note i was astounded against their wishes. on a more i superficial note i was astounded by how many people had their photographs taken without attempting to cover their faces as they were looting or rioting. did that surprise you as you were going about your work or is itjust people caught up in heat of the moment? wishing to presume what motives are at think that is likely. heat of the moment, i sort of have less sympathy for that in that you're talking about lots of people in a position where they could have left at any point they wished. the police were telling them to leave, they were arresting them and they had their riot shields on pushing them back with plenty of room to leave at any point so i do not have sympathy for

that really. but certainly i do know that really. but certainly i do know that there is psychology amongst the marb that is slightly harder to rationalise in that situation. hand rationalise in that situation. and worse saying — rationalise in that situation. and worse saying that south yorkshire police issued a statement to us tonight saying they have sympathy with you and they will proceed cautiously so perhaps they are backing away from perhaps it was one police officer making suggestions to you that when they look at it in the round they are rolling back from it. i hope so, that will be good. the previous information i was given on saturday was that they explicitly were going to get a production order from a judge or at least ask for that. so if they roll back altogether. it is notjust about me but every other journalist who altogether. it is notjust about me but every otherjournalist who has the right to work safely.— but every otherjournalist who has the right to work safely. please do kee us the right to work safely. please do keep us posted- — the right to work safely. please do keep us posted. let's _ the right to work safely. please do keep us posted. let's pick- the right to work safely. please do keep us posted. let's pick it i the right to work safely. please do keep us posted. let's pick it up i keep us posted. let's pick it up with the panel. shaun bailey, where do you sit around the ethics on

this? ., ., ., , ., this? there are two angles, in one sense journalists _ this? there are two angles, in one sense journalists need _ this? there are two angles, in one sense journalists need to - this? there are two angles, in one sense journalists need to defend i sense journalists need to defend their— sense journalists need to defend their source and that is sacrosanct, one of— their source and that is sacrosanct, one of the — their source and that is sacrosanct, one of the big things but of course that could — one of the big things but of course that could also be abused. but i think— that could also be abused. but i think if— that could also be abused. but i think if you force this particular photographer or photographers in general— photographer or photographers in general we will lose the news because — general we will lose the news because the level of danger will be hu-e because the level of danger will be huge because largely in a crowd people — huge because largely in a crowd people allowjournalists to do that but if _ people allowjournalists to do that but if they think that their gathering information for the police at the _ gathering information for the police at the level of danger would be significantly higher. you at the level of danger would be significantly higher.— significantly higher. you have worked with _ significantly higher. you have worked with the _ significantly higher. you have worked with the police - significantly higher. you have worked with the police in i significantly higher. you have i worked with the police in london, can you see it from their perspective? i can you see it from their perspective?— can you see it from their perspective? can you see it from their --ersective? , ., , perspective? i can because of course the want perspective? i can because of course they want to — perspective? i can because of course they want to solve _ perspective? i can because of course they want to solve crime _ perspective? i can because of course they want to solve crime because i perspective? i can because of course | they want to solve crime because the same _ they want to solve crime because the same media — they want to solve crime because the same media organisations will be asking _ same media organisations will be asking what you've not solved those crimes _ asking what you've not solved those crimes but _ asking what you've not solved those crimes but i— asking what you've not solved those crimes but i worry you would give up another— crimes but i worry you would give up another aspect of our privacy because _ another aspect of our privacy because once you set this precedent of getting _ because once you set this precedent of getting everything you demand from people who have done nothing illegal, _ from people who have done nothing illegal, what is next? what else are we going _ illegal, what is next? what else are we going to demand? so we need to be

careful~ _ we going to demand? so we need to be careful. ,, ., ., , ., , ., careful. sienna rogers, as a journalist — careful. sienna rogers, as a journalist what _ careful. sienna rogers, as a journalist what do _ careful. sienna rogers, as a journalist what do you i careful. sienna rogers, as a| journalist what do you think? careful. sienna rogers, as a i journalist what do you think? i think my view is quite predictable, of course i completely agree with joel and the fact that he is resisting this if it comes to it, i think he is absolutely right. i think he is absolutely right. i think in a situation in particular the fact that he is a freelance journalist does increase the risk but also means if they do go ahead with an order then he has less financial backing and less support that other journalist financial backing and less support that otherjournalist might have. so he feels the weight on him to kind of set a precedent in resisting this kind of thing but also one particular has he been targeted for that request? find particular has he been targeted for that request?— particular has he been targeted for that request? and shaun bailey 'ust ick u- that request? and shaun bailey 'ust pick up something i that request? and shaun bailey 'ust pick up something with i that request? and shaun bailey 'ust pick up something with relating i that request? and shaun baileyjust pick up something with relating to i pick up something with relating to the riots and you previously criticised keir starmer for picking a side as you said. but surely there arejust the side a side as you said. but surely there are just the side of law and order on the side of criminality? what on the side of criminality? what keir starmer _ on the side of criminality? what keir starmer did, _ on the side of criminality? what keir starmer did, he _ on the side of criminality? what keir starmer did, he came i on the side of criminality? what keir starmer did, he came out and said everyone involved has these

feelings—