ukraine says its troops are pushing deeper into russian territory. after nine days of kremlin embarrassment, how will putin respond? and with europe threatening elon musk�*s twitter/x social media platform because of his response to riots here, what can or should

the british government do? good evening. remarkable, historic, brave, and extemely risky. ukraine occupies parts of russia on its border, and the world awaits vladmir putin's response. western weapons prove critical to the audacious attempt to seize more than 1,000 square kilometers of russia's kursk region. and tonight, the mod confirms that ukraine can use british weapons on russian soil. we'll speak to two russian voices about this undoubted escalation of the ukraine war, one of president putin's mps from the russian parliament and a loyalformer agent, and his first prime minister, now exiled and a staunch opponent.

we will be analysing the western response to this with phillip collins, former blair speechwriter, and baronness claire fox, the former brexit party mep, and also talking about wider british politics. first, let's look at the emerging map of the ukraine war — where russia occupies vast swathes of eastern ukraine on the black sea, including crimea, first occupied a decade ago. 0nly last year, some western allies were cautioning kyiv about whether retaking crimea, for example, might cross a red line for putin and risk an uncontrolled escalation. but over the past nine days, ukraine has taken actual sovereign russian territory for the first time, in kursk, the first ocupation of any part of russia since the second world war. why? for how long? you may remember the name maria butina. she was the gun—toting russian political activist who spent 15 months in us prison after admitted acting as an agent and infiltrating us political groups. the fbi says she wanted to use these groups to establish "back channel" communication with official figures

with the ultimate aim of influencing us foreign policy in russia's favour. well, she now sits in the duma as a russian mp for the governing united russia party, which supports preisdent putin. i spoke to her this evening and i started by asking her about the response in russia to the country's loss of territory to ukrainian forces. what i see today unfortunately is that ukraine is attacking the civil population, that's first. and the second thing, they are trying to improve i guess their positions in negotiations so they are attacking nuclear plants without thinking what are the aftermath could be for europe, for russia, for the civil population. it seems to me that they don't care and it looks like agony, knowing that they are losing the campaign, they are trying to attract russian forces from the front line

in donbas, where they are losing territory, to the new front line. but we have enough forces to actually push them back. {lila but we have enough forces to actually push them back. ok, but i mean, actually push them back. ok, but i mean. this — actually push them back. ok, but i mean. this is _ actually push them back. ok, but i mean, this is the _ actually push them back. ok, but i mean, this is the first _ actually push them back. ok, but i mean, this is the first time - actually push them back. ok, but i mean, this is the first time that. mean, this is the first time that your country has lost sovereign territory since the second world war which is a humiliation for russia, is it not? , ., ., ., �* is it not? first of all, i don't think that — is it not? first of all, i don't think that the _ is it not? first of all, i don't think that the territory - is it not? first of all, i don't think that the territory is i is it not? first of all, i don't l think that the territory is lost. is it not? first of all, i don't . think that the territory is lost. i do believe that this is a temporary thing. that is the first thing. we can push them back. and the second thing, i know the goal, which is to escalate the conflict, to provoke and poke russia to be i guess more active, may be to use nuclear weapons, in that case, knowing that russia will do everything to protect its territory. you russia will do everything to protect its territory-— its territory. you think this is a conscious _ its territory. you think this is a conscious provocation - its territory. you think this is a conscious provocation so - its territory. you think this is a conscious provocation so that. its territory. you think this is a - conscious provocation so that your country uses its nuclear weapons? the conscious provocation that is used by ukrainian forces is exactly,

yes, they are attacking nuclear plants, yes, they are provoking a nuclear conflict. they have no understanding of what it is going to be, and by trying to get points from the west, they put in danger the whole world. it the west, they put in danger the whole world.— whole world. it sounds like an ominous threat. _ whole world. it sounds like an ominous threat. they - whole world. it sounds like an ominous threat. they are - whole world. it sounds like an l ominous threat. they are acting whole world. it sounds like an - ominous threat. they are acting like barbarians. — ominous threat. they are acting like barbarians, attacking _ ominous threat. they are acting like barbarians, attacking the _ barbarians, attacking the civilian population. they are attacking nuclear infrastructure. what do you call that? , , , nuclear infrastructure. what do you callthat? , ,, ., ., call that? cruise missile attacks on ukrainian cities, _ call that? cruise missile attacks on ukrainian cities, where _ call that? cruise missile attacks on ukrainian cities, where tens - call that? cruise missile attacks on ukrainian cities, where tens of- ukrainian cities, where tens of thousands of innocent ukrainians have died, then is it any surprise that ukrainians try to do whatever it takes to try to get some, you know, territory back or to have some kind of better position in any final negotiation?— kind of better position in any final negotiation? well, let's start from kursk territory _ negotiation? well, let's start from kursk territory is _ negotiation? well, let's start from kursk territory is not _ negotiation? well, let's start from kursk territory is not their - kursk territory is not their territory so that is the act of provocation. territory so that is the act of provocation-— territory so that is the act of rovocation. . , ., , ., provocation. crimea it is not your territory either. _

provocation. crimea it is not your territory either. crimea _ provocation. crimea it is not your territory either. crimea is - provocation. crimea it is not your| territory either. crimea is russian territo , territory either. crimea is russian territory, historically _ territory either. crimea is russian territory, historically and - territory either. crimea is russian| territory, historically and mentally and according to all international boundaries. what is now going on from the ukrainian side is a provocation. they are not trying to create the. provocation. they are not trying to create the-— provocation. they are not trying to create the. ~ ., �* ,, ., . ., create the. wouldn't russia exchange these areas of — create the. wouldn't russia exchange these areas of kursk _ create the. wouldn't russia exchange these areas of kursk for i _ create the. wouldn't russia exchange these areas of kursk for i don't - these areas of kursk for i don't know, areas of zaporizhzhia or somewhere like that? thea;r know, areas of zaporizhzhia or somewhere like that? they are in no osition to somewhere like that? they are in no position to negotiate _ somewhere like that? they are in no position to negotiate in _ somewhere like that? they are in no position to negotiate in exchanges . position to negotiate in exchanges because that is not there territory. this is a terrorist act by actually taking hostages from the civilian population. this is called terrorism. it is not a negotiating position. when you have something to negotiate, they have nothing. now, theyjust negotiate, they have nothing. now, they just take the forces they have, they just take the forces they have, the little forces they have left, and they have changed their position in the direction of kursk, during this last agony, like an animal that has been shot but isn't dead. that is what they are doing.—

is what they are doing. since the special military _ is what they are doing. since the special military operation, - is what they are doing. since the special military operation, as - is what they are doing. since the | special military operation, as you call it, started, your invasion of ukraine, your country is treated like a pariah, it has economic sanctions, you have been kicked out of all the sporting and cultural events, you now face the loss of sovereign territory, use a temporary but at the moment you are not in charge of the whole of russia. this is a disaster for your country. charge of the whole of russia. this is a disasterfor your country. it is a disaster for your country. it is a disaster for your country. it is not. first of all, we adapt very well and even in the western media well and even in the western media we see the claims from the western politicians, including presidential candidates in the united states, will say that russia actually, we adapt quite well. and you see the lights in my working space and it is my office and it is ok. we have food to eat, unlike europe that now is suffering from the difficulties and hardships of the economic crisis because they are low on resources. isn't the reality here that your country, your president, your party, you are waiting for president trump? that is what you want because he will give you an easy ride.-

that is what you want because he will give you an easy ride. trump is riaht, i will give you an easy ride. trump is right, i watched _ will give you an easy ride. trump is right, i watched his _ will give you an easy ride. trump is right, i watched his interviews - will give you an easy ride. trump is right, i watched his interviews with| right, i watched his interviews with elon musk, wonderful congratulations and of course i have an interest in us politics because i lived there and studied there and serve time there. but that is it. i have no illusions regarding trump, and russia does not favour anyone. as much as we see today, they are all the same. donald trump broke all the promises. now he is going to come again. he is going to promise a lot and break all the promises. we are not stupid. we don't mess with us politics. we don't care whether it will be trump or harris, they can choose for themselves who will be better with them and russia will negotiate with whoever is ready for negotiations. negotiate with whoever is ready for negotiations-— negotiations. thank you for “oining us. thank negotiations. thank you for “oining thankyou. * philip collins and claire fox are here. nobody in these studios or anywhere really were talking about ukraine seizing russian territory up until a

couple of weeks ago. are they going to be selling this —— celebrating this in downing street and the white house? i this in downing street and the white house? ., ., ., ., house? i would not have thought celebration _ house? i would not have thought celebration is _ house? i would not have thought celebration is in _ house? i would not have thought celebration is in order _ house? i would not have thought celebration is in order because i house? i would not have thought celebration is in order because it| celebration is in order because it is sophie beale and dangerous. that was a fascinating interview and the ominous, threatening tone of some of those remarks means that i don't think anyone is going to be celebrating. i think also, although it is a very notable moment, as you said, the first time since the second world war that sovereign russian territory has been infiltrated, but nevertheless, the question you have to ask is, does this bring us closer to a conclusion? does it in fact break the long stalemate? i'm not sure that actually it does. so celebration will be in order when there is some prospect of a settlement, an end to the fighting, and if you are on that side of this conflict, a ukrainian victory. but i don't think we are actually particularly closer to that. with all the attendant dangers which this

new development has brought with it. isn't it great news that russia has been forced back or is feeling the pressure in some way? i been forced back or is feeling the pressure in some way?— been forced back or is feeling the pressure in some way? i think it is aood pressure in some way? i think it is good news- _ pressure in some way? i think it is good news- i _ pressure in some way? i think it is good news. ithink— pressure in some way? i think it is good news. i think that _ pressure in some way? i think it is good news. i think that one - pressure in some way? i think it is good news. i think that one of - pressure in some way? i think it is good news. i think that one of the | good news. i think that one of the problems— good news. i think that one of the problems is that the stalemate had felt problems is that the stalemate had feit as— problems is that the stalemate had felt as though it was a kind of forever— felt as though it was a kind of forever war, and the kind of demoralisation that was happening, notiust_ demoralisation that was happening, notjust within ukraine, and you could _ notjust within ukraine, and you could feel— notjust within ukraine, and you could feel that war weariness and obviously, a lot of people have died. _ obviously, a lot of people have died. but — obviously, a lot of people have died, but also, even in the west, notjust— died, but also, even in the west, notjust in— died, but also, even in the west, notjust in america but increasingly, you heard people saying. — increasingly, you heard people saying, what is this war we are involved — saying, what is this war we are involved in. _ saying, what is this war we are involved in, isn't it costing a lot of money, _ involved in, isn't it costing a lot of money, and so on. what is amazing about— of money, and so on. what is amazing about what_ of money, and so on. what is amazing about what has happened is that it has completely changed the narrative, and notjust... i mean, it's a _ narrative, and notjust... i mean, it's a really— narrative, and notjust... i mean, it's a really big deal and fantastic for morale — it's a really big deal and fantastic for morale within ukraine itself. they— for morale within ukraine itself. they didn'tjust take for morale within ukraine itself. they didn't just take the bbc new studios _ they didn't just take the bbc new studios by surprise, they took russia — studios by surprise, they took russia by— studios by surprise, they took russia by surprise. they took everybody, the west by surprise. and

so it is— everybody, the west by surprise. and so it is an _ everybody, the west by surprise. and so it is an act — everybody, the west by surprise. and so it is an act of autonomy, some courage. — so it is an act of autonomy, some courage, actually, to have done what they have _ courage, actually, to have done what they have done in many ways. and i think— they have done in many ways. and i think in_ they have done in many ways. and i think in that — they have done in many ways. and i think in that sense, it shakes things— think in that sense, it shakes things up— think in that sense, it shakes things up and i think this will put putin— things up and i think this will put putin on— things up and i think this will put putin on the back foot. i think its likely— putin on the back foot. i think its likely changes things. it gives a sense _ likely changes things. it gives a sense of dynamism to a war that felt stuck _ sense of dynamism to a war that felt stuck in _ sense of dynamism to a war that felt stuck in a _ sense of dynamism to a war that felt stuck. in a geographical territory where _ stuck. in a geographical territory where the — stuck. in a geographical territory where the action was not happening at alt _ where the action was not happening at all. everything that has happened in the _ at all. everything that has happened in the last— at all. everything that has happened in the last few months or the last endless _ in the last few months or the last endless months have been on russian terms. _ endless months have been on russian terms, russia has dictated even how the war— terms, russia has dictated even how the war was— terms, russia has dictated even how the war was conducted. now they are kind of— the war was conducted. now they are kind of like _ the war was conducted. now they are kind of like looking over their shoulders, and so, that to me is very— shoulders, and so, that to me is very positive because this war, and ensuring _ very positive because this war, and ensuring that, you know, what it means— ensuring that, you know, what it means for— ensuring that, you know, what it means for western freedom, what it means— means for western freedom, what it means for— means for western freedom, what it means for national sovereignty and so on _ means for national sovereignty and so on is _ means for national sovereignty and so on is very— means for national sovereignty and so on is very important. we means for national sovereignty and so on is very important.— means for national sovereignty and so on is very important. we are now imlicated so on is very important. we are now implicated in — so on is very important. we are now implicated in terms _ so on is very important. we are now implicated in terms of— so on is very important. we are now implicated in terms of our— implicated in terms of our armaments, we had that clear message from the mod tonight that there are no restrictions for the ukrainians

in terms of their use of british armaments on russian soil? irate in terms of their use of british armaments on russian soil? we are very heavily — armaments on russian soil? we are very heavily implicated, _ armaments on russian soil? we are very heavily implicated, no - armaments on russian soil? we arej very heavily implicated, no question about it. i don't know where it ends but i think the point that you put at the end of that interview, there was a lot that she said that was dubious but the thing that was categorically not true is that they have no interest in who wins the american presidential election because obviously, they do, because the one thing which could really change the stalemate in a very bad way, in my opinion, would be a trump presidency because the american help for ukraine is significantly greater than anybody else's and if an american president were to curtail that or withdraw it, that would really break the stalemate. that could be the pivotal moment in a very bad way. could be the pivotal moment in a very bad way-— could be the pivotal moment in a very bad way. there is this notion that trump _ very bad way. there is this notion that trump might _ very bad way. there is this notion that trump might on _ very bad way. there is this notion that trump might on the - very bad way. there is this notion that trump might on the one - very bad way. there is this notion | that trump might on the one hand very bad way. there is this notion - that trump might on the one hand try to force both parties back to the negotiating table by withdrawing support for ukraine, but it may be that the timing of this ukrainian

offensive has the us presidential election in mind. that offensive has the us presidential election in mind.— election in mind. that is a suspicion _ election in mind. that is a suspicion on _ election in mind. that is a suspicion on what - election in mind. that is a suspicion on what has - election in mind. that is a i suspicion on what has driven zelensky— suspicion on what has driven zelensky to have chosen now. just in case trump — zelensky to have chosen now. just in case trump gets in and then, if he does. just— case trump gets in and then, if he does. just in— case trump gets in and then, if he does, just in case the scenario that philip _ does, just in case the scenario that philip has — does, just in case the scenario that philip has painted happens. i am less sure — philip has painted happens. i am less sure what trump will do only inasmuch— less sure what trump will do only inasmuch as he is so erratic. i thought— inasmuch as he is so erratic. i thought the greatest lie she told in that story— thought the greatest lie she told in that story was the idea that the elon musk and donald trump interview was interesting! i know we're coming onto it _ was interesting! i know we're coming onto it but _ was interesting! i know we're coming onto it but i — was interesting! i know we're coming onto it but ijust thought, i mean, for goodness' sake! 0ne onto it but ijust thought, i mean, for goodness' sake! one thing that i would _ for goodness' sake! one thing that i would say, — for goodness' sake! one thing that i would say, from the point of view of the uk, _ would say, from the point of view of the uk, and — would say, from the point of view of the uk, and the fact that we are implicated in this, and that british armaments will be used in russian territory. _ armaments will be used in russian territory, this is a big day in history. _ territory, this is a big day in history, right? idon't territory, this is a big day in history, right? i don't want russian history, right? idon't want russian territory— history, right? i don't want russian territory and — history, right? i don't want russian territory and russian sovereignty to have their _ territory and russian sovereignty to have their borders breached any more than anyone _ have their borders breached any more than anyone else but it was fascinating watching somebody

saying. — fascinating watching somebody saying, how dare somebody invade us? and i saying, how dare somebody invade us? and i think. _ saying, how dare somebody invade us? and i think, yes, that is where we started. _ and i think, yes, that is where we started, don't you remember? but i think— started, don't you remember? but i think the _ started, don't you remember? but i think the government needs to be on the front— think the government needs to be on the front foot on this because one of the _ the front foot on this because one of the things that i have noticed in parliament— of the things that i have noticed in parliament is, very declaratory, we are on— parliament is, very declaratory, we are on the — parliament is, very declaratory, we are on the side of ukraine, we assume — are on the side of ukraine, we assume that is the right side, i am totally— assume that is the right side, i am totally prone ukraine in this war and so — totally prone ukraine in this war and so on — totally prone ukraine in this war and so on but i don't know that we have _ and so on but i don't know that we have actually had that discussion enough — have actually had that discussion enough in — have actually had that discussion enough in public. i have heard some labour— enough in public. i have heard some labour backbenchers are saying this, ithink— labour backbenchers are saying this, i think we _ labour backbenchers are saying this, i think we might have two... the government might need to ensure that it does— government might need to ensure that it does not— government might need to ensure that it does notjust assume public support— it does notjust assume public support for that position. i think it is important. and now that this has happened, it is even more the case _ has happened, it is even more the case. ~ ., ., , case. we have not finished the discussion- _ case. we have not finished the discussion. i spoke _ case. we have not finished the discussion. i spoke to another| discussion. i spoke to another guest. mikhail kasyanov served as russian prime minister under president putin between 2000 and 200a. after leaving government he became a leading critic and opposition figure before leaving the country in exile. last year, the kremlin

declared him a "foreign agent". i first asked him whether he thought putin had been caught by surprise. i think that was unexpected. and it is a real, i would say, creation of anger. and i am afraid that mr putin is thinking how to punish ukrainians. and he is very angry. he is very angry at everything going on right now. i mean, just give us some context here. not since the second world war has russian territory in western russia been occupied by a foreign power. not during the chaos after the end of the cold war. not during any of these periods. this is an extraordinary moment, isn't it? absolutely it is. but the problem is for putin. he wanted to create an atmosphere, to create understanding that it is not the war and that special military operation that they called. for, ukraine that's absolutely war with russia. it is for everyone. it's clear that it's the war between two countries, between russia and ukraine.

aggressive. putin's russia invaded, a full scale invasion into ukraine. independent ukraine. of course, for ukrainians, they are absolutely free to create any, let's say, plans for the counteroffensive or offensive operations, just respecting the geneva convention. but it is full scale war. mr putin believes that all russians and all ukrainians and maybe westerns think that it's not a war, aand that's whyjust the borders, —— westerners think that it's not a war, aand that's whyjust the borders, recognised borders, of russian federation are untouchable but invasion inside, just keeping the territory under the control of other state, that's absolutely historic event. that's something extraordinary. it was said, approximately a year ago it was said, and this has been repeated by some leaders of western countries, that you don't want to provoke mr putin too much, you don't want to look like you're going to claim crimea back, for example, because that would risk the really horrible thing, you know,

potentially nuclear war. that's what for all these years, in my conversations with western politicians and my comments even on your channel, i always say just putin is bluffing. that's why you should support ukraine as much as you can. and now i say if you wantjust to, end up with this war, with the victory of ukraine, not necessarily victory, which will be just the full de—occupation of all territories, but considerable part of ukraine should be restored under the control of ukrainian government. if you wish to achieve this, you should double the support, double the support of ukraine, so that mr putin is now spending 6, 7% of gdp for the war, if he spends i2, 15% of gdp for the war, that is already beginning of crash of economy. putin understands this and the war of attrition that he is now undertaking also should not last long.

that's why this year and these coming months are crucial, crucial for making decision by western leaders what to do with the war, how to support ukraine, to what extent and how to end up with this war. but you will have heard former president trump saying repeatedly that he fears a risk of thermonuclear war, that he thinks that the american people should elect him because he will stop world war 3 from happening. this could be an important issue in the us presidential election. that's important issue everywhere. but i say that mr putin is not, say, army general, who is ready to be killed in battlefield. he's a kgb agent. he wanted just to escape somehow from responsibility, not take all this responsibility. and he will not press the nuclear button. he's bluffing on that. are you sure? yes, i'm sure, i'm sure on that.

that's what i'm saying. all these three years. he's bluffing on that. and he knows, moreover, from american and other governments, what their response would be if he pressed the nuclear button. the response will be not nuclear, but devastating, completely devastating just all his regime and infrastructure. military infrastructure. well, i must leave that there. thank you very much, mikhail kasyanov, thanks for talking to bbc newsnight tonight. thank you. he is playing it down there. it is pretty chilling discussing the stuff isn't it? it pretty chilling discussing the stuff isn't it? , ., �* , ., isn't it? it is. i don't share the certainty- _ isn't it? it is. i don't share the certainty- he _ isn't it? it is. i don't share the certainty. he knows _ isn't it? it is. i don't share the certainty. he knows mr- isn't it? it is. i don't share the certainty. he knows mr putin l isn't it? it is. i don't share the - certainty. he knows mr putin better than i ever will, mercifully, but the catastrophic risk of being wrong means it's very difficult to have the confidence of that. i mean, you look back at putin, he had the tendency of doing what he says. ——

he has the tendency. he is on record many times during his speech as saying he plans to take various parts of territory which he has always regarded as russian and whenever he's had an opportunity to do so he has donejust whenever he's had an opportunity to do so he has done just that. there is a reading of putin that he is a straight kind of guy and therefore the confidence, the fact he is bluffing, particularly if he's backed into a corner, particularly if he's humiliated, particularly if 12% of gdp is going on prosecuting a war effort, i do not share that same certainty and it is ominous and extremely worrying.— certainty and it is ominous and extremely worrying. claire, it's a bluff, isn't _ extremely worrying. claire, it's a bluff, isn't it? — extremely worrying. claire, it's a bluff, isn't it? because _ extremely worrying. claire, it's a bluff, isn't it? because the - bluff, isn't it? because the alternative is to let russia have what it once because it has nuclear weapons. i what it once because it has nuclear wea ons. ., �* what it once because it has nuclear weaons. ., �* ~ ., , what it once because it has nuclear weaons. ., �* ~ ., weapons. i don't know if it is a bluff but one _ weapons. i don't know if it is a bluff but one of— weapons. i don't know if it is a bluff but one of the _ weapons. i don't know if it is a bluff but one of the peculiar. weapons. i don't know if it is a - bluff but one of the peculiar things about— bluff but one of the peculiar things about this — bluff but one of the peculiar things about this conversation is on the one hand — about this conversation is on the one hand saying if donald trump gets elected _ one hand saying if donald trump gets elected it— one hand saying if donald trump gets elected it will be very bad for ukraine — elected it will be very bad for ukraine because he won't get the backing. — ukraine because he won't get the backing, but actually a lot of the discussion—

backing, but actually a lot of the discussion about whether he should -et discussion about whether he should get the _ discussion about whether he should get the backing has been within the context— get the backing has been within the context of— get the backing has been within the context of saying, what if we do this, _ context of saying, what if we do this, or— context of saying, what if we do this, or if— context of saying, what if we do this, or if we do this, that might lead _ this, or if we do this, that might lead to— this, or if we do this, that might lead to nuclear war and escalation. so in _ lead to nuclear war and escalation. so in some — lead to nuclear war and escalation. so in some ways it's been a half— hearted so in some ways it's been a half—hearted support of so in some ways it's been a half— hearted support of the so in some ways it's been a half—hearted support of the ukraine and one _ half—hearted support of the ukraine and one of— half—hearted support of the ukraine and one of the things which is interesting about what happened with this latest development is ukraine has acted — this latest development is ukraine has acted autonomously and kind of set the _ has acted autonomously and kind of set the scene itself rather than kind of— set the scene itself rather than kind of following around what the west _ kind of following around what the west were telling it to do because the west— west were telling it to do because the west has been rather hesitant and a _ the west has been rather hesitant and a bit — the west has been rather hesitant and a bit scaremongering. the danger with that _ and a bit scaremongering. the danger with that is _ and a bit scaremongering. the danger with that is the war can go on and on and _ with that is the war can go on and on and in — with that is the war can go on and on and in the end give putin more authority. — on and in the end give putin more authority, which is what none of us want, _ authority, which is what none of us want. i_ authority, which is what none of us want, iassume. so, ithink something a bit more decisive is important — something a bit more decisive is important. which is what your guest hasjust_ important. which is what your guest hasjust said, which is there is a lot of— hasjust said, which is there is a lot of bluff— hasjust said, which is there is a lot of bluff going on and we should ourselves— lot of bluff going on and we should ourselves not over scaremonger about nuclear _ ourselves not over scaremonger about nuclear war _ ourselves not over scaremonger about nuclear war around the corner. not that i_ nuclear war around the corner. not that i want— nuclear war around the corner. not that i want to be complacent about any kind _ that i want to be complacent about any kind of— that i want to be complacent about any kind of possible escalation because — any kind of possible escalation because i_

any kind of possible escalation because i do understand that is a threat _ because i do understand that is a threat. tole— because i do understand that is a threat. ~ ., ., threat. we will leave it there for now but don't — threat. we will leave it there for now but don't go _ threat. we will leave it there for now but don't go anywhere. - it's been another day of those involved in the recent unrest across britain appearing in court. in one of a string of convictions for social media posts relating to the riots, one sentencing judge today condenmed "so—called keyboard warriors" and urged them to take "responsibility for your disgusting and inflammatory language." the spat between the owner of twitter/x, elon musk, and the uk government continued, with former pm liz truss backing musk, who in turn thanked her. the european union meanwhile upped the ante in its battle with x with a threat of fines or more, after citing the role of misinformation in the recent british riots, and mr musk�*s own use of his personal account. let's unpack some of that with our panel. there was this intriguing letter citing the british rights from the european union in the last 2a hours, so what should britain do and what could we do if anything? that so what should britain do and what could we do if anything?— could we do if anything? that were difficult. the _

could we do if anything? that were difficult. the european _ could we do if anything? that were i difficult. the european commissioner is involved. and that rare group of people who have an overlapping interest in both digital safety and surrealism it is andre brett on. because it is such a mixture of things. a great space like the internet, it is extraordinary difficult to police it. we went through a major attempt to regulate our media, which was completely in ankara it didn't take place. quite what we can do to that, i don't think anybody really get to know is but i do think this is something which is welcome to government. he has a set of issues. both the riot and then the misinformation through social media. i don't think anybody in the labour government thought this would dominate their first few months but it shows you how extraordinary

government is, that all of the things you plan to do just get lost and you are thrown into something else. . and you are thrown into something else. , , ., , else. interesting it is europe. it is the eu standing _ else. interesting it is europe. it is the eu standing up _ else. interesting it is europe. it is the eu standing up for- else. interesting it is europe. itj is the eu standing up for britain else. interesting it is europe. it i is the eu standing up for britain or the richest man in the world? he wasn't standing up for britain. the richest man in the world? he i wasn't standing up for britain. they are citin: wasn't standing up for britain. they are citing the _ wasn't standing up for britain. they are citing the uk. _ wasn't standing up for britain. they are citing the uk. i'm _ wasn't standing up for britain. they are citing the uk. i'm very - are citing the uk. i'm very concerned _ are citing the uk. i'm very concerned that _ are citing the uk. i'm very concerned that one - are citing the uk. i'm very concerned that one of - are citing the uk. i'm very concerned that one of the | are citing the uk. i'm very - concerned that one of the things that's— concerned that one of the things that's going to be sacrificed on the back of— that's going to be sacrificed on the back of the — that's going to be sacrificed on the back of the response to the riots is free speech — back of the response to the riots is free speech and one of the things i'm concerned about is censorship and particularly the way the whole online _ and particularly the way the whole online discussion and this misinformation, disinformation, and clampdowns, people being sent to prison— clampdowns, people being sent to prison for— clampdowns, people being sent to prison for things they post and so on. prison for things they post and so on the _ prison for things they post and so on the last — prison for things they post and so on. the last thing you want is the eu involved... it's not because it is the _ eu involved... it's not because it is the eu, — eu involved... it's not because it is the eu, it _ eu involved... it's not because it is the eu, it is preposterous to say

that that _ is the eu, it is preposterous to say that that is — is the eu, it is preposterous to say that that is supporting britain against — that that is supporting britain against the owner of x. it is supporting an aspect of government policy— supporting an aspect of government policy in _ supporting an aspect of government policy in terms of clamping down. i actually— policy in terms of clamping down. i actually think that elon musk's response to this, which is to basically— response to this, which is to basically say, you know, i stand for free speech, — basically say, you know, i stand for free speech, is a reasonable one. i'm free speech, is a reasonable one. im not— free speech, is a reasonable one. i'm not particularly interested in elon musk but we have got to remember what twitter was like before _ remember what twitter was like before it — remember what twitter was like before it was x when in fact there were _ before it was x when in fact there were quite — before it was x when in fact there were quite considerable political interventions on that side. mask's conception — interventions on that side. mask's conception of— interventions on that side. mask's conception of free _ interventions on that side. mask's conception of free speech -- - interventions on that side. mask's conception of free speech -- elon| conception of free speech —— elon musk's conception of free speech is not what is embodied in british law where there is all sorts of curtailment on speech with respect to inflammatory language and incitement of violence and hatred etc. elon musk is essentially saying he doesn't buy it. his conception of free speech is saying, you can say

whatever you like. that in fact is not the legal position we have and neither should it be. you not the legal position we have and neither should it be.— neither should it be. you will understand _ neither should it be. you will understand that _ neither should it be. you will understand that one - neither should it be. you will understand that one of- neither should it be. you will understand that one of the l neither should it be. you will - understand that one of the things that has— understand that one of the things that has escalated, and it has literally— that has escalated, and it has literally escalated, is that there have been televised court, judicial, you know. — have been televised court, judicial, you know, judges filmed actually put by them, _ you know, judges filmed actually put by them, the courts, by x, government saying think before you post _ government saying think before you post. people are being sent to prison for— post. people are being sent to prison for substantial sentences day in, prison for substantial sentences day in. day out, — prison for substantial sentences day in, day out, 1000 people based on these _ in, day out, 1000 people based on these rights, for speech. it might be unpleasant speech and there are absolutely, there are libel laws and all sorts _ absolutely, there are libel laws and all sorts of— absolutely, there are libel laws and all sorts of laws. i think there are too many— all sorts of laws. i think there are too many sensory laws myself but that is _ too many sensory laws myself but that is not — too many sensory laws myself but that is not what has happened. it has upped — that is not what has happened. it has upped the anti... pure that is not what has happened. it has upped the anti... are you saying from our has upped the anti... are you saying from your perspective _ has upped the anti... are you saying from your perspective there - has upped the anti... are you saying from your perspective there is - from your perspective there is freedom to say whatever you want without consequences, even if it insights violence?—

without consequences, even if it insights violence? incitement is a articular insights violence? incitement is a particular and _ insights violence? incitement is a particular and very _ insights violence? incitement is a particular and very specific... - insights violence? incitement is a particular and very specific... i'm | particular and very specific... i'm going _ particular and very specific... i'm going to — particular and very specific... i'm going to instruct you to, i'm telling — going to instruct you to, i'm telling you to go and burn that mosgue — telling you to go and burn that mosque down, right? that is incitement and that is against the law. incitement and that is against the law some — incitement and that is against the law. some of the things people are beingm _ law. some of the things people are being... let's use an example because — being... let's use an example because you actually said, a 53—year—old woman, the judge said i'm 53—year—old woman, the judge said im finding — 53—year—old woman, the judge said i'm finding it difficult, he has sent— i'm finding it difficult, he has sent her to prison for, i think of 18 months _ sent her to prison for, i think of 18 months. she is the sole care of a disabled _ 18 months. she is the sole care of a disabled person. she has said something really vile. she said i wish _ something really vile. she said i wish they— something really vile. she said i wish they would attack the mosque and kill— wish they would attack the mosque and kill everyone in it. this is not good _ and kill everyone in it. this is not good it's— and kill everyone in it. this is not good. it's racist! it and kill everyone in it. this is not good. it's racist!— good. it's racist! it is more than not good- _ good. it's racist! it is more than not good. don't _ good. it's racist! it is more than not good. don't try _ good. it's racist! it is more than not good. don't try and - good. it's racist! it is more than not good. don't try and hold - not good. don't try and hold me responsible- _ not good. don't try and hold me responsible. if— not good. don't try and hold me responsible. if you _ not good. don't try and hold me responsible. if you say - not good. don't try and hold me responsible. if you say anything | not good. don't try and hold me i responsible. if you say anything on this itll— responsible. if you say anything on this it'll be — responsible. if you say anything on this it'll be clicked and they will be knocking on your door! the point i am be knocking on your door! the point i am making — be knocking on your door! the point i am making is even the judge said there _ i am making is even the judge said there was— i am making is even the judge said there was no leniency, no thought... what _ there was no leniency, no thought... what i'm _

there was no leniency, no thought... what i'm saying is it's ambivalent... what i'm saying is it's ambivalent. . .- what i'm saying is it's ambivalent... ~ ., , ambivalent... with the 'udge was a- -l in: ambivalent... with the 'udge was applying not ambivalent... with the 'udge was applying the law. _ ambivalent. .. with the 'udge was applying the law. what- ambivalent... with the judge was applying the law. what is - ambivalent... with the judge was i applying the law. what is happening is that through _ applying the law. what is happening is that through the _ applying the law. what is happening is that through the wide _ applying the law. what is happening is that through the wide scale, - applying the law. what is happening is that through the wide scale, as i is that through the wide scale, as the police — is that through the wide scale, as the police have admitted, special squads— the police have admitted, special sguads of— the police have admitted, special squads of police officers trawling through — squads of police officers trawling through social media, looking for examples — through social media, looking for examples that they can then use to send people to prison. the judge made _ send people to prison. the judge made the — send people to prison. the judge made the point, it is important we send _ made the point, it is important we send a _ made the point, it is important we send a message. it made the point, it is important we send a message.— made the point, it is important we send a message. it happened in 2011, as well. i send a message. it happened in 2011, as well- i know— send a message. it happened in 2011, as well. i know and _ send a message. it happened in 2011, as well. i know and i _ send a message. it happened in 2011, as well. i know and i opposed - send a message. it happened in 2011, as well. i know and i opposed it - as well. i know and i opposed it then. is there _ as well. i know and i opposed it then. is there a _ as well. i know and i opposed it then. is there a risk _ as well. i know and i opposed it then. is there a risk of - as well. i know and i opposed it then. is there a risk of a - then. is there a risk of a miscarriage _ then. is there a risk of a miscarriage of _ then. is there a risk of a miscarriage ofjustice? i miscarriage of justice? disproportionate miscarriage ofjustice? disproportionatejudicial miscarriage ofjustice? disproportionate judicial activism. there _ disproportionate judicial activism. there is— disproportionate judicial activism. there is always a risk of that in the aftermath of a very significant event. there is always a risk of that. i don't want to be cavalier about that and say, you know, that doesn't matter because of course it does. there is a risk of that. nevertheless, you could describe trawling through social media as the police are looking for people who have broken the law and if people have broken the law and if people have used inflammatory and inciting language, which has contributed to

acts of violence, well, that is, as we stand, against the law. contributing to acts of violence is an interesting turn of phrase because _ an interesting turn of phrase because the point is that some racist, — because the point is that some racist, vile, disgusting things have been _ racist, vile, disgusting things have been said — racist, vile, disgusting things have been said on social media. they are said by— been said on social media. they are said by millions of people all around — said by millions of people all around the world every day. it is a question— around the world every day. it is a question of— around the world every day. it is a question of whether you think that is the _ question of whether you think that is the appropriate thing they should be doingm — is the appropriate thing they should be doing... but is the appropriate thing they should be doinu . .. �* . is the appropriate thing they should bedoinu... �* , ., be doing... but it gives it a different — be doing... but it gives it a different status, _ be doing... but it gives it a different status, doesn't i be doing... but it gives it a| different status, doesn't it? be doing... but it gives it a - different status, doesn't it? it's not the same as a private conversation.— not the same as a private conversation. ., ~ ., conversation. elon musk has made the oint or it conversation. elon musk has made the point or it is — conversation. elon musk has made the point or it is the _ conversation. elon musk has made the point or it is the public _ conversation. elon musk has made the point or it is the public square. - point or it is the public square. are we — point or it is the public square. are we actually arguing that the british— are we actually arguing that the british government should close down x or do— british government should close down x or do we _ british government should close down x or do we think that anything you say on _ x or do we think that anything you say on social media is going to be looked _ say on social media is going to be looked at — say on social media is going to be looked at by the police and? when you say— looked at by the police and? when you say the police are looking for people _ you say the police are looking for people who have broken the law, they

don't have _ people who have broken the law, they don't have to look very far in any city in _ don't have to look very far in any city in this— don't have to look very far in any city in this country, people break the law, — city in this country, people break the law, you phone the police, the police _ the law, you phone the police, the police say — the law, you phone the police, the police say we are very hard pressed to deal— police say we are very hard pressed to deal with — police say we are very hard pressed to deal with crimes of theft and burglary— to deal with crimes of theft and burglary and so on, don't they? we are burglary and so on, don't they? are hard burglary and so on, don't they? - are hard pressed for time. burglary and so on, don't they? we are hard pressed for time. sorry. i burglary and so on, don't they? we. are hard pressed for time. sorry. we will not get — are hard pressed for time. sorry. we will not get the _ are hard pressed for time. sorry. we will not get the pleasure _ are hard pressed for time. sorry. we will not get the pleasure of- are hard pressed for time. sorry. we will not get the pleasure of seeing liz truss today with the lettuce on the banner. let's start with the free press. don't rush in new laws for workers, bosses warned them on the front of the times. tories accuse government of caving in with the rail pay offer. the same story in the daily mail in terms of train drivers and their bumper pay deal. in the telegraph have the career criminals walking free in softjustice scandal and a picture of keely hodgkinson.