tonight, are we on the precipice of peace, or a wider war? israel—gaza talks are held tonight, in qatar. and, trust the plan, the economy's on the up. whoops, that's the wrong chancellor!

will tory growth put the bounce into labour's spending plans? hello. welcome to newsnight, home of insights and interviews. a hostage release deal in the gaza strip linked to a ceasefire is once again dominating international diplomacy tonight. the location is qatar, but the background is bleak. a new milestone�*s been reported today for the number of palestinians killed. hamas, whose key leaders are being assasinated, says the death toll now surpasses 40,000. israel disputes the figure, saying more than 15,000 terrorists have been killed. 0n newsnight tonight, we'll discuss any expectations of a breakthrough with our panel.

both newsnight names. tory peer and times columnist daniel finkelstein and faiza shaheen, who was previously the labour candidate and then independent candidate for chingford and woodford green. welcome back to you both. now, the fate of israeli hostages is key to any ceasefire. a total of 116 of those taken prisoner during the filmed killings by hamas on october 7th have now been freed. 78 of them were israeli women and children, released as part of a deal between israel and hamas. one of them was 85—year—old yocheved livschitz, who gripped the hand of her captor on her release, uttering "shalom!" — hebrew for hello and peace. it's ok, let's go. you go with this one. shalom. shalom. i'm sure you will

remember — shalom. shalom. i'm sure you will remember those _ shalom. shalom. i'm sure you will remember those pictures. - i spoke to her daughter sharone an hour ago. she was in that film. she told me she backs the talks in qatar, as the war has failed. well, people have been on edge for ten and a half months. they've been on edge even more since they killed haniyeh. um, we are petrified of the prospect of retaliation. we are, you know, we have been waiting for the hostages for so long. we know that they suffer tremendously every day. we know, you know, our hearts sink when i see that haniyeh was, um, executed. you know, i have no sympathy for him, but i don't think it helps us reach where we want to be, which is the release of the hostages and a long—term agreement between israel and palestinian that will restore security for the citizens of this region. your mum and dad are peaceniks. this is a word you've used in an interview with me before. do you think that your dad will be

paying attention to the toll on palestinians around him? i hope my dad is well enough, after ten and a half months. i've just read again that, you know, the dismantling of hamas also means that hostages are put in worse and worse conditions. it's very hard to imagine how my father's heart rises and sinks with all this news, if he knows them. i don't know, you know, we have found strengths we do not have, and we sit among our loved ones. and my father has not been with loved ones for ten and a half months. i cannot imagine what it feels like. do you think israel's prime minister has put the hostages�* fate first? no. i think he has used them from the very beginning

to advance his own aims. so i'm listening to you, sharone, and i'm not hearing... newsnight viewers feel that these talks are going to work, but you tell me that you are hopeful. what is hope? you know, what is the alternative? do i hope? i hope to see my loved one back. i hope to see all the hostages back. i know many of them are no longer with us. i hope, with all my heart, that some of them come back, that those who worry... that wish for the bodies to be back are back. that the people of this region — both israeli and palestinians — have a chance of building a better future for our children. that will happen when cessation of hostilities, replacement of these leaders, because they will not bring peace upon us. and, um, having the hope

that we can be neighbours. sharone, thank you for talking to me again and for talking to newsnight. you're welcome. danny finklestein is back on the programme, assistant editor at the times, whose latest book details how hisjewish parents lived through the holocaust. and professor faiza shaheen organised an inter—faith summit here in the uk after october 7th. she was later deselected as a labour candidate, in a row over other people's tweets on israel — which we may return to. welcome both of you back to the programme. sharone livschitz in the centre of this global story, what an amazing account she gives and she still clings to hope of these talks working tonight, danny. i still clings to hope of these talks working tonight, danny.- still clings to hope of these talks working tonight, danny. i very much look forward — working tonight, danny. i very much look forward to _ working tonight, danny. i very much look forward to hearing _ working tonight, danny. i very much look forward to hearing what - working tonight, danny. i very much look forward to hearing what faiza i look forward to hearing what faiza shaheen thinks. my own view is that was incredibly courageous. i shared almost all her sentiments, i think. i desperately hope for a long—term peace. but it is hard to be

incredibly optimistic. two things need to happen. we need to get into a situation where palestinians can have emancipation in their own nation and israelis can feel that that happens well israel is safe. to have both those things going on at the same time is very hard and it is the same time is very hard and it is the only basis for any deal being more than an intermittent micro—tea. i have always felt with these things that both people on both sides of this can say —— an intermittent peace. but they end up getting us nowhere. what is so incredibly courageous and admirable is to be in the position that she is in and to concentrate on love and peace and how we can reach out to each other, rather than the bitterness she must also feel. she rather than the bitterness she must also feel. ,, , ., ., also feel. she feels the death toll is too high- _ also feel. she feels the death toll is too high. she _ also feel. she feels the death toll is too high. she thinks _ also feel. she feels the death toll is too high. she thinks the - also feel. she feels the death toll is too high. she thinks the war. also feel. she feels the death toll| is too high. she thinks the war has failed. i is too high. she thinks the war has failed. ~' ., is too high. she thinks the war has failed. ~ ., , failed. i think one thing she said that is very _

failed. i think one thing she said that is very clear _ failed. i think one thing she said that is very clear is _ failed. i think one thing she said that is very clear is it _ failed. i think one thing she said that is very clear is it is - failed. i think one thing she said that is very clear is it is not - that is very clear is it is not about— that is very clear is it is not about the _ that is very clear is it is not about the hostages any more. this has actually been used by netanyahu and the _ has actually been used by netanyahu and the governmentjust has actually been used by netanyahu and the government just to has actually been used by netanyahu and the governmentjust to kill so many— and the governmentjust to kill so many people in gaza and to take land in the _ many people in gaza and to take land in the west— many people in gaza and to take land in the west bank. i know that so many— in the west bank. i know that so many of— in the west bank. i know that so many of us — in the west bank. i know that so many of us have been heartbroken this week— many of us have been heartbroken this week to see, we keep seeing these _ this week to see, we keep seeing these babies and this dad suffering after his_ these babies and this dad suffering after his twins. you see the birth certificates. it isjust atrocious. many— certificates. it isjust atrocious. many people no longer have the words for this _ many people no longer have the words forthis. 0ne many people no longer have the words for this. one thing that is important, it is notjust israel and hamas_ important, it is notjust israel and hamas but— important, it is notjust israel and hamas but the wider community. why is the _ hamas but the wider community. why is the us— hamas but the wider community. why is the us and uk not doing more? that is— is the us and uk not doing more? that is the — is the us and uk not doing more? that is the issue here, the wider community— that is the issue here, the wider community supporting israel in this. as you _ community supporting israel in this. as you might expect, there is a bit of disagreement between us on this. i think it is partly about the hostages. it is also because israel cannot be expected simply to allow hamas to keep its citizens and not return them. one can disagree with whether or not this is a

proportionate action and one can disagree as she clearly does with whether or not it is likely to be effective, but we won't have peace until hamas decides that it is not going to engage in a war. that is only part of the answer. i going to engage in a war. that is only part of the answer.- going to engage in a war. that is only part of the answer. i think you misunderstood _ only part of the answer. i think you misunderstood what _ only part of the answer. i think you misunderstood what i _ only part of the answer. i think you misunderstood what i said. - only part of the answer. i think you misunderstood what i said. of - only part of the answer. i think you i misunderstood what i said. of course you need _ misunderstood what i said. of course you need the hostages released. but at the _ you need the hostages released. but at the same time, what the war has become _ at the same time, what the war has become is _ at the same time, what the war has become is not about the hostages number— become is not about the hostages number one, that is not what it looks— number one, that is not what it looks like — number one, that is not what it looks like to the world. you see what _ looks like to the world. you see what has — looks like to the world. you see what has happened to gaza and the bulldozing and the people that have been killed. it is bulldozing and the people that have been killed. , . . , bulldozing and the people that have been killed. , . ., , ., been killed. it is clearly about more than — been killed. it is clearly about more than that. _ been killed. it is clearly about more than that. to _ been killed. it is clearly about more than that. to try - been killed. it is clearly about more than that. to try and . been killed. it is clearly about i more than that. to try and reach been killed. it is clearly about - more than that. to try and reach a common accord. that is obviously correct. it is notjust about hostages. but beyond that, israel feels that after what happened in october, it simply cannot allow 0ctober, it simply cannot allow hamas to rule gaza. october, it simply cannot allow hamas to rule gaza.— october, it simply cannot allow hamas to rule gaza. let's pick up on that. the hamas to rule gaza. let's pick up on that- the peace _ hamas to rule gaza. let's pick up on that. the peace talks _ hamas to rule gaza. let's pick up on that. the peace talks do _ hamas to rule gaza. let's pick up on that. the peace talks do include - that. the peace talks do include people who have gone, egypt and

qatar is there. do they agree, the powers who are not palestinians, that gaza cannot be run by hamas? what danny is saying is that is what israel wants, but does it look like the wider world agrees with that? i have a problem with this because it has to— have a problem with this because it has to come from the palestinians. but hamas— has to come from the palestinians. but hamas doesn't really like votes very much. but hamas doesn't really like votes ve much. ., ., , �* but hamas doesn't really like votes very much-— but hamas doesn't really like votes ve much. ., ., , �* , ., very much. no, it doesn't! they have not been voted _ very much. no, it doesn't! they have not been voted on _ very much. no, it doesn't! they have not been voted on in _ very much. no, it doesn't! they have not been voted on in that _ very much. no, it doesn't! they have not been voted on in that way. - very much. no, it doesn't! they have not been voted on in that way. but i not been voted on in that way. but to have _ not been voted on in that way. but to have this— not been voted on in that way. but to have this conversation about everyone — to have this conversation about everyone thinks that hamas should not he _ everyone thinks that hamas should not be there, so many people are dying _ not be there, so many people are dying and — not be there, so many people are dying and have been killed in the most _ dying and have been killed in the most brutal way. the focus has to be this is— most brutal way. the focus has to be this is not— most brutal way. the focus has to be this is not a — most brutal way. the focus has to be this is not a question about it being — this is not a question about it being proportionate, it is completely disproportionate. i�*m completely disproportionate. i'm 'ust completely disproportionate. in just getting to the talks. it is that —— is it likely whatever the arguments, if there is a deal at all, it has to mean goodbye to hamas in gaza? ., , ., ,, ., in gaza? how can they make that decision? it _ in gaza? how can they make that decision? it would _ in gaza? how can they make that decision? it would be _ in gaza? how can they make that decision? it would be made - in gaza? how can they make that decision? it would be made for. in gaza? how can they make that - decision? it would be made for them. it will be decision? it would be made for them. it will be the — decision? it would be made for them. it will be the qataris, _ decision? it would be made for them. it will be the qataris, the _ it will be the qataris, the americans and egyptians who would say, time is up. aha, americans and egyptians who would

say. time is urn-— say, time is up. a lot of people would stay _ say, time is up. a lot of people would stay in — say, time is up. a lot of people would stay in gaza. _ say, time is up. a lot of people would stay in gaza. you - say, time is up. a lot of people would stay in gaza. you say - say, time is up. a lot of people | would stay in gaza. you say the say, time is up. a lot of people - would stay in gaza. you say the aim is to get— would stay in gaza. you say the aim is to get rid — would stay in gaza. you say the aim is to get rid of hamas and the more you do— is to get rid of hamas and the more you do this, — is to get rid of hamas and the more you do this, the more you create people _ you do this, the more you create people that want to support them. the framing of this discussion is difficult — the framing of this discussion is difficult it— the framing of this discussion is difficult. it is not i don't agree hamas— difficult. it is not i don't agree hamas is— difficult. it is not i don't agree hamas is a _ difficult. it is not i don't agree hamas is a problem, ijust think is a step— hamas is a problem, ijust think is a step in— hamas is a problem, ijust think is a step in terms of steps, you have to give _ a step in terms of steps, you have to give the — a step in terms of steps, you have to give the palestinians voice on this _ to give the palestinians voice on this. ,., , ., ., ., ,, this. the point you are making reruires this. the point you are making requires thought _ this. the point you are making requires thought and - this. the point you are making requires thought and you - this. the point you are making requires thought and you are l this. the point you are making - requires thought and you are quite right part of the cost of a war of this kind is you create more militancy. 0n the other hand, he tried to destroy the military infrastructure of the people who live... , ., ,. ., live... let me put it to you as i heard another _ live... let me put it to you as i heard another cousin - live... let me put it to you as i heard another cousin of - live... let me put it to you as i heard another cousin of the . live... let me put it to you as i - heard another cousin of the hostages say. there are two mutually exclusive goals israel appears to be fulfilling. 0ne exclusive goals israel appears to be fulfilling. one is the complete destruction of hamas and two is negotiating with them in qatar. yes. negotiating with them in qatar. yes, because it is — negotiating with them in qatar. yes, because it is an _ negotiating with them in qatar. 1a: because it is an impossible situation. i because it is an impossible situation-— because it is an impossible situation. ., �* ~ ., situation. i don't think... you should situation. i don't think. .. you should never— situation. i don't think... you should never have _ situation. i don't think... you| should never have committed situation. i don't think... you i should never have committed to situation. i don't think... you - should never have committed to the complete destruction of hamas... i

think what israel said was they were committed to the complete military defeat of hamas which is a slightly different thing. and i think if we are going to have peace in the middle east, israel will not be able to coexist with a force that once its destruction and is heavily armed and militarily organised and financed by iran. so in all the solutions to stop the fighting and to stop the death, one thing we have got to do is make sure that happens. you won't create peace simply by israel stopping, right? iunderstand why there is a desperate desire for that to happen, but israel did this in response to a deadly attack. but no government can allow a military force to exist.— force to exist. you cover that earlier. sorry. _ force to exist. you cover that earlier. sorry. no, _ force to exist. you cover that earlier. sorry. no, only- force to exist. you cover that i earlier. sorry. no, only because you are speaking from the heart. i would if you can both answered this and i know you are reaching that agreement, which is unusual in this conversation. you agree it is a

ceasefire or wider war, does it look like that to you, faiza? i ceasefire or wider war, does it look like that to you, faiza?— ceasefire or wider war, does it look like that to you, faiza? i have been s-ueakin like that to you, faiza? i have been speaking to — like that to you, faiza? i have been speaking to my _ like that to you, faiza? i have been speaking to my friends _ like that to you, faiza? i have been speaking to my friends in _ like that to you, faiza? i have been speaking to my friends in beirut i like that to you, faiza? i have beenl speaking to my friends in beirut who work for— speaking to my friends in beirut who work for the un and they are very concerned — work for the un and they are very concerned it is a wider war that is coming — concerned it is a wider war that is coming. again, the role of the us and the _ coming. again, the role of the us and the uk— coming. again, the role of the us and the uk is really critical. i, like _ and the uk is really critical. i, like many, _ and the uk is really critical. i, like many, don't see this going well in terms _ like many, don't see this going well in terms of— like many, don't see this going well in terms of peace talks and i think there _ in terms of peace talks and i think there has— in terms of peace talks and i think there has to be far more in coming down _ there has to be far more in coming down hard — there has to be far more in coming down hard on stopping the killing. and i_ down hard on stopping the killing. and i agree the hostages. but we have _ and i agree the hostages. but we have to _ and i agree the hostages. but we have to stop this killing. gn and i agree the hostages. but we have to stop this killing. on a ruestion have to stop this killing. on a question of— have to stop this killing. on a question of a _ have to stop this killing. on a question of a war _ have to stop this killing. on a question of a war this - have to stop this killing. on a question of a war this is i have to stop this killing. on a question of a war this is a i question of a war this is a ceasefire.— question of a war this is a ceasefire. , ~ ., , ceasefire. yes, i think that is probably _ ceasefire. yes, i think that is probably correct. _ ceasefire. yes, i think that is probably correct. -- - ceasefire. yes, i think that is probably correct. -- versus l ceasefire. yes, i think that is probably correct. -- versus a probably correct. —— versus a ceasefire. there are obviously lessons for israel to learn and there is clearly a problem with iran and its global ambitions and ambitions in the region that have to be addressed. there cannot be peace without security. it is true... for both. sojust without security. it is true... for both. so just to say there cannot be peace without palestinians being

able to live securely. by the way, that might also be secure from hamas as well as from israel.— as well as from israel. look, i think some — as well as from israel. look, i think some of _ as well as from israel. look, i think some of this, _ as well as from israel. look, i think some of this, we - as well as from israel. look, i think some of this, we would | as well as from israel. look, i i think some of this, we would ask as well as from israel. look, i - think some of this, we would ask you to return to. i am hearing you are following these talks as closely as our first guest sharone livschitz, always so moving to hear from our first guest sharone livschitz, always so moving to hearfrom her and indeed, from the counts you have given of your friends in the and indeed, from the counts you have given of yourfriends in the un. i would like to turn to events back home and i will do it by reminding myself of the last time you would hear, which was an extraordinary interview. you told how you had been rejected as a candidate one hour before coming to the studio. share rejected as a candidate one hour before coming to the studio. are you the labour candidate _ before coming to the studio. are you the labour candidate for— before coming to the studio. are you the labour candidate for chingford i the labour candidate for chingford and woodford _ the labour candidate for chingford and woodford green? _ the labour candidate for chingford and woodford green? well, - the labour candidate for chingford and woodford green?— the labour candidate for chingford and woodford green? well, i thought i was and and woodford green? well, i thought i was and then _ and woodford green? well, i thought i was and then i _ and woodford green? well, i thought i was and then i literally _ and woodford green? well, i thought i was and then i literallyjust - and woodford green? well, i thought i was and then i literallyjust got i i was and then i literallyjust got an e-mail — i was and then i literallyjust got an e—mail. so i'm just did a bit of an e—mail. so i'm just did a bit of a state— an e—mail. so i'm just did a bit of a state of— an e—mail. so i'm just did a bit of a state of shock, to be honest. i have _ a state of shock, to be honest. i have worked that seat for a long time _ have worked that seat for a long time i_ have worked that seat for a long time ijust _ have worked that seat for a long time. ijust had a baby. i went back and had _ time. ijust had a baby. i went back and had a _ time. ijust had a baby. i went back and had a c—section. i was knocking on doors _ and had a c—section. i was knocking on doors six — and had a c—section. i was knocking on doors six weeks after my baby was

born _ on doors six weeks after my baby was born. honestly, i on doors six weeks after my baby was born. honestly, lam on doors six weeks after my baby was born. honestly, iamjust on doors six weeks after my baby was born. honestly, i am just so shocked i’ilht born. honestly, i am just so shocked right now— born. honestly, i am just so shocked right now to— born. honestly, i am just so shocked right now to be treated this badly, after being such an active member of the party _ faiza was deselected as a labour candidate shortly before the election. it candidate shortly before the election. . , candidate shortly before the election. ., ,, candidate shortly before the election. . , ., ~ ., election. it was about liking a tweet which _ election. it was about liking a tweet which appeared - election. it was about liking a tweet which appeared to i election. it was about liking a i tweet which appeared to include jewish stereotypes and tropes and she said she was supported in her community for organising an interfaith conference. when you see it now, what does it make you remember? i it now, what does it make you remember?— it now, what does it make you remember? . ., ., ., ., ., remember? i mean, a lot of trauma that they and _ remember? i mean, a lot of trauma that they and then _ remember? i mean, a lot of trauma that they and then went _ remember? i mean, a lot of trauma that they and then went on - remember? i mean, a lot of trauma that they and then went on to i remember? i mean, a lot of trauma l that they and then went on to become an independent and got a lot of support— an independent and got a lot of support in— an independent and got a lot of support in the community. one thing in this— support in the community. one thing in this conversation about israel and palestine as i wasn't allowed to say anything and when i had internal arguments— say anything and when i had internal arguments in the labour party or try

to push— arguments in the labour party or try to push back, i was very much rebuffed — to push back, i was very much rebuffed and they really wanted to -et rebuffed and they really wanted to get rid _ rebuffed and they really wanted to get rid of — rebuffed and they really wanted to get rid of me and it is very upsetting because it is we are to be here and _ upsetting because it is we are to be here and finally be able to talk about — here and finally be able to talk about these issues and this is a problem — about these issues and this is a problem sometimes that happens in this conversation that we can't have this conversation that we can't have this conversation. do this conversation that we can't have this conversation.— this conversation. do you think this heled this conversation. do you think this helped conservatives _ this conversation. do you think this helped conservatives hold - this conversation. do you think this helped conservatives hold on i this conversation. do you think this helped conservatives hold on in i this conversation. do you think this| helped conservatives hold on in this constituency?— helped conservatives hold on in this constituency? unquestionably, i said it to faiza before, _ constituency? unquestionably, i said it to faiza before, i _ constituency? unquestionably, i said it to faiza before, i thought - constituency? unquestionably, i said it to faiza before, i thought the i it to faiza before, i thought the result she achieved was remarkable as an independent candidate so i think you did prove your point that you had quite a lot of local support. secondly the other thing i said is personally speaking i didn't think to the charge of anti—semitism was made out at all, and i am very sensitive about that because i think it is incredibly important we are able to have free discussion between people who obviously disagree quite a lot about israel and palestine without everybody immediately saying thatis without everybody immediately saying that is anti—semitic and i think you have to have a strong basis for that so i was quite concerned about that.

i appreciate that on one thing i want _ i appreciate that on one thing i want to— i appreciate that on one thing i want to say when we are on the topic, _ want to say when we are on the topic, i— want to say when we are on the topic, i genuinely thought i would wake _ topic, i genuinely thought i would wake up _ topic, i genuinely thought i would wake up and have that, i don't even want _ wake up and have that, idon't even want to— wake up and have that, idon't even want to say— wake up and have that, i don't even want to say it. and to have so many people _ want to say it. and to have so many people coming out for me in the election — people coming out for me in the election. but i was really upset that iain— election. but i was really upset that iain duncan smith one and the moment— that iain duncan smith one and the moment i— that iain duncan smith one and the moment i was deselected... don�*t moment i was deselected... don't mistake it, _ moment i was deselected... don't mistake it, i _ moment i was deselected... don't mistake it, i obviously _ moment i was deselected... don't mistake it, i obviously wouldn't i mistake it, i obviously wouldn't have voted for you. pare mistake it, i obviously wouldn't have voted for you.— mistake it, i obviously wouldn't have voted for you. are we saying that faiza's _ have voted for you. are we saying that faiza's independent - have voted for you. are we saying | that faiza's independent candidacy helped her hang on? i that faiza's independent candidacy helped her hang on?— helped her hang on? i think the labour party — helped her hang on? i think the labour party decided _ helped her hang on? i think the labour party decided they i helped her hang on? i think the| labour party decided they would rather— labour party decided they would rather iain duncan smith than me. clearly— rather iain duncan smith than me. clearly that — rather iain duncan smith than me. clearly that is not faiza's doing, if the labour party decided they didn't want her as a candidate. they split the vote with her. so didn't want her as a candidate. they split the vote with her.— split the vote with her. so labour ut iain split the vote with her. so labour put iain duncan _ split the vote with her. so labour put iain duncan smith _ split the vote with her. so labour put iain duncan smith back- split the vote with her. so labour put iain duncan smith back in? i split the vote with her. so labour i put iain duncan smith back in? the wa i think put iain duncan smith back in? iie: way i think about it put iain duncan smith back in? "iie: way i think about it as put iain duncan smith back in? i“ie: way i think about it as they put iain duncan smith back in? iie: way i think about it as they took a

deliberate decision of they would rather have iain duncan smith than faiza. ., , , , rather have iain duncan smith than faiza. .,, ,, ., ., faiza. people were upset about that locall . i faiza. people were upset about that locally- i know _ faiza. people were upset about that locally. i know i _ faiza. people were upset about that locally. i know i have _ faiza. people were upset about that locally. i know i have said _ faiza. people were upset about that locally. i know i have said this i faiza. people were upset about that locally. i know i have said this to i locally. i know i have said this to ou, i locally. i know i have said this to you. i don't _ locally. i know i have said this to you, i don't think _ locally. i know i have said this to you, i don't think it _ locally. i know i have said this to you, i don't think it is _ locally. i know i have said this to you, i don't think it is that i locally. i know i have said this to j you, i don't think it is that stupid a calculation by them. they got one extra tory mp but they managed to keep out a critic of keir starmer who is possibly more effective out of parliament. has who is possibly more effective out of parliament-— who is possibly more effective out of arliament. . , ,, ., of parliament. has keir starmer rung ou since of parliament. has keir starmer rung you since the election? _ of parliament. has keir starmer rung you since the election? angela i you since the election? angela ra ner? you since the election? angela rayner? no- — you since the election? angela rayner? no- i— you since the election? angela rayner? no. i heard _ you since the election? angela rayner? no. i heard she i you since the election? angela rayner? no. i heard she was l you since the election? angela i rayner? no. i heard she was ringing ou when rayner? no. i heard she was ringing you when you _ rayner? no. i heard she was ringing you when you came _ rayner? no. i heard she was ringing you when you came into _ rayner? no. i heard she was ringing you when you came into the - rayner? no. i heard she was ringing you when you came into the studio l rayner? no. i heard she was ringingl you when you came into the studio on newsnight? she you when you came into the studio on newsniaht? ,, i, , you when you came into the studio on newsniaht? ,, n, , h, ~ a, you when you came into the studio on newsniaht? ,, n, , a, , w, newsnight? she has spoken to people on the team but _ newsnight? she has spoken to people on the team but no _ newsnight? she has spoken to people on the team but no one _ newsnight? she has spoken to people on the team but no one has _ newsnight? she has spoken to people on the team but no one has spoken i newsnight? she has spoken to people on the team but no one has spoken to i on the team but no one has spoken to me. a, , on the team but no one has spoken to me. i, , , a, on the team but no one has spoken to me. i, , , i, i, on the team but no one has spoken to me. i, , i, , i me. that is it, you have been out free from — me. that is it, you have been out free from labour. _ me. that is it, you have been out free from labour. absolutely! . me. that is it, you have been cutl free from labour. absolutely! you don't seem _ free from labour. absolutely! you don't seem sad _ free from labour. absolutely! you don't seem sad about _ free from labour. absolutely! you don't seem sad about it. - free from labour. absolutely! you don't seem sad about it. at - don't seem sad about it. at least i can talk about _ don't seem sad about it. at least i can talk about palestine _ don't seem sad about it. at least i can talk about palestine now - don't seem sad about it. at least i can talk about palestine now and l can talk about palestine now and this is_ can talk about palestine now and this is the — can talk about palestine now and this is the problem. we have got to be able _ this is the problem. we have got to be able to— this is the problem. we have got to be able to have a broad church. let's _ be able to have a broad church. let's come _ be able to have a broad church. let's come to that issue because i would like to do an economic chat but i wonder if the cleaner segway as if we have done a little bit of a

tour of labour strife after this massive victory the one it seems disingenuous when we really want to ask you about these six people vying to lead the conservative party. what is the matter because you are well plugged into this party? it is plugged into this party? it is externally — plugged into this party? it is externally difficult _ plugged into this party? it 3 externally difficult to judge what the conservative party will do. it is a good context in which to talk about it. they were clearly made a decision which would position themselves in the centre and they very ruthlessly and that is why they did what they did to you, which i understand only political level even though the personal consequences and the in that one the seat were not good. i understand the conservative party has not yet chosen what it wants to be ruthless about, even before it starts to organise itself. what about some of the things that they have been doing? robertjenrick wants to ban the shouting and public

and they want to ban blue on blue attacks, anything you like? the conservative _ attacks, anything you like? me: conservative party attacks, anything you like? iie: conservative party needs attacks, anything you like? ii2 conservative party needs to present to people notjust a leader of the opposition but something beyond that, something they can believe it is a real prime minister. robert jenrick�*s comment is characteristic of the sort of comment that got the conservative party i think into the position it did last general election which is people, not only quite a lot of people recoiled at this idea, and a lot of other people thought, you are never going to do that. so it was a combination of repulsive to some people and completely unrealistic to others, so the conservatives probably managed to lose votes to everyone. do the conservatives probably managed to lose votes to everyone.— to lose votes to everyone. do you have a favourite _ to lose votes to everyone. do you have a favourite of _ to lose votes to everyone. do you have a favourite of the _ to lose votes to everyone. do you have a favourite of the six? - to lose votes to everyone. do you have a favourite of the six? i - to lose votes to everyone. do you have a favourite of the six? i do l have a favourite of the six? i do it. have a favourite of the six? i do it- would _ have a favourite of the six? i do it- would you — have a favourite of the six? i do it. would you tell _ have a favourite of the six? i do it. would you tell me? - have a favourite of the six? i do it. would you tell me? let - have a favourite of the six? i do it. would you tell me? let me i have a favourite of the six? i do i it. would you tell me? let me turn to ou, it. would you tell me? let me turn to you. faiza. _ it. would you tell me? let me turn to you, faiza, just _ it. would you tell me? let me turn to you, faiza, just to _ it. would you tell me? let me turn to you, faiza, just to ask. in - it. would you tell me? let me turn to you, faiza, just to ask. in termsj to you, faiza, just to ask. in terms of the growth figures that have come out today, 0.6%, that is tory

growth, isn't it?— out today, 0.6%, that is tory growth, isn't it? you can say it is tory growth- -- — growth, isn't it? you can say it is tory growth- -- it _ growth, isn't it? you can say it is tory growth... it clearly - growth, isn't it? you can say it is tory growth... it clearly is - growth, isn't it? you can say it is tory growth... it clearly is tory l tory growth... it clearly is tory arowth, tory growth... it clearly is tory growth. it _ tory growth. .. it clearly is tory growth. it can't— tory growth... it clearly is tory growth, it can't be _ tory growth. .. it clearly is tory growth, it can't be rachel- tory growth... it clearly is tory i growth, it can't be rachel reeves growth. growth, it can't be rachel reeves urowth. ., , ., ., growth. you can try and tell a ositive growth. you can try and tell a positive story _ growth. you can try and tell a positive story about _ growth. you can try and tell a positive story about that - growth. you can try and tell a positive story about that but l growth. you can try and tell a i positive story about that but the underlying factors are not good. you look underlying factors are not good. you took at _ underlying factors are not good. you look at what that 0.6 is made up of, mainly— look at what that 0.6 is made up of, mainly services. big problems that are stored — mainly services. big problems that are stored up. mainly services. big problems that are stored up-_ are stored up. wouldn't it be good to sa it are stored up. wouldn't it be good to say it is — are stored up. wouldn't it be good to say it is definitely _ are stored up. wouldn't it be good to say it is definitely tory - are stored up. wouldn't it be good to say it is definitely tory growth? j to say it is definitely tory growth? it is tory growth but it is not good growth _ it is tory growth but it is not good growth |— it is tory growth but it is not good urowth. ., , ., it is tory growth but it is not good urowth. . , ., , it is tory growth but it is not good urowth. ., , ., , ., growth. i am telling you why i want to do this so _ growth. i am telling you why i want to do this so clearly _ growth. i am telling you why i want to do this so clearly because - growth. i am telling you why i want to do this so clearly because it - growth. i am telling you why i want to do this so clearly because it has| to do this so clearly because it has got quite ugly betweenjeremy hunt and rachel reeves, let's get a reminder of some newsnight segments. the previous government let people down. hear, hear! mr speaker, the previous government made commitment after commitment, without knowing where the money was going to come from. today, i am calling out the conservatives' cover—up. that great office of state depends, more than any, on trust. yet in her... shouting yet in her first big moment, she breaks that trust, with an utterly bogus attempt

to hoodwink the public about the choices she has. so because labour is casting themselves as the builder that comes to your house and repairs the skirting board and size of the wall is falling down and the neighbour has tapped into the electricity, and now they have this growth figure courtesy ofjeremy hunt and rishi sunak? courtesy ofjeremy hunt and rishi sunak? , g courtesy ofjeremy hunt and rishi sunak? , ., , ., sunak? funnily enough, the question of tory growth _ sunak? funnily enough, the question of tory growth are — sunak? funnily enough, the question of tory growth are labour— sunak? funnily enough, the question of tory growth are labour growth, . sunak? funnily enough, the question of tory growth are labour growth, it | of tory growth are labour growth, it is slightly cold growth.— is slightly cold growth. timing is eve hinu is slightly cold growth. timing is everything in — is slightly cold growth. timing is everything in politics _ is slightly cold growth. timing is everything in politics and - is slightly cold growth. timing is everything in politics and the - everything in politics and the politics were bequeathing a growing economy? politics were bequeathing a growing econom ? . , politics were bequeathing a growing econom ? ., , ., ~ economy? that is true and i think the conservative _ economy? that is true and i think the conservative party _ economy? that is true and i think the conservative party received . economy? that is true and i think- the conservative party received more opprobrium than it should have done and therefore would not have been honest when growth arises. the trend is not as high as we all want. however, jeremy is right. i think

rachel reeves and her budget, that is exactly what you would do politically, completely. after all the conservatives did the same in 2010. you try and draw as clear a line and say everything is broken. i totally understand the strategy behind it but i don't think it really holds water. i behind it but i don't think it really holds water.- behind it but i don't think it really holds water. i ask you a moment ago _ really holds water. i ask you a moment ago about _ really holds water. i ask you a moment ago about your- really holds water. i ask you a i moment ago about your amazing contacts in the tories, can i ask you to plug me into labour thinking? a lot at people around me in journalism say labour is going to scrap the cap. have you heard that? i have heard that but the broader problem — i have heard that but the broader problem with the economy and what rachel_ problem with the economy and what rachel reeves is doing as they are saying _ rachel reeves is doing as they are saying these things about fixing the foundation, they are painting themselves into the corner by having fiscal rules _ themselves into the corner by having fiscal rules and playing into a narrative _ fiscal rules and playing into a narrative that is wrong about household budgets and the way the economy— household budgets and the way the economy works. they have very much created _ economy works. they have very much created this _ economy works. they have very much created this narrative of change and i'm created this narrative of change and i'm not— created this narrative of change and i'm not willing to come up with the money— i'm not willing to come up with the money to— i'm not willing to come up with the money to think about infrastructure

investment. the two child benefit cap, there — investment. the two child benefit cap, there is a huge cost of child poverty — cap, there is a huge cost of child poverty. those kids don't go on to do as— poverty. those kids don't go on to do as well— poverty. those kids don't go on to do as well in— poverty. those kids don't go on to do as well in school. i think they well— do as well in school. i think they well but — do as well in school. i think they well but i — do as well in school. i think they well but i don't think it will happen— well but i don't think it will happen right now.- well but i don't think it will happen right now. well but i don't think it will ha en riaht now. ., , happen right now. there are viewers watchin: happen right now. there are viewers watching right _ happen right now. there are viewers watching right now— happen right now. there are viewers watching right now who _ happen right now. there are viewers watching right now who limit - happen right now. there are viewers watching right now who limit the i watching right now who limit the number of children they have themselves on the grounds they can't afford them so as this a sensible argument for labour to be having with itself? should they say some children do already limit their families based on finances? i think it will -la families based on finances? i think it will play very _ families based on finances? i think it will play very well _ families based on finances? i think it will play very well to _ families based on finances? i think it will play very well to labour i it will play very well to labour mps, the base, make them feel well about themselves. i think in the general public there is less support than people think for that because people make exactly that argument and i have certainly made that argument. sol and i have certainly made that argument. so i don't think it is as universally popular a move as a lot of labour mps think. i can imagine very much that they will do that. it is the child that suffers the parents _ is the child that suffers the parents decision but it is the child

that suffers. parents decision but it is the child that suffers-— that suffers. every time you disagree — that suffers. every time you disagree you _ that suffers. every time you disagree you come - that suffers. every time you disagree you come round i that suffers. every time you disagree you come round to that suffers. every time you i disagree you come round to a situation of agreeing. links me to space, ifeel very situation of agreeing. links me to space, i feel very universal. here am ifloating �*round my tin can. far above the moon. planet earth is blue. and there's nothing i can do. so warbled david bowie predicting the fate of two nasa astronauts stuck in space. suni williams and butch wilmor travelled to the international space station so long ago rishi sunak hadn't even arrived at the d day commemorations down here on earth. it was on fifth ofjune they arrived expecting to return after eight days. a problem with the thrusters on the boeing starliner could turn into eight months instead. how will they be feeling, and what can they expect to experience between now and next spring? i'm going to speak now to one of the few people on earth who knows the answer to that question — canada's colonel chris hadfield, retired astronaut — and more recently, author of cold war thriller novel, the defector — who commanded the iss. welcome to newsnight. good evening,

sounds like you — welcome to newsnight. good evening, sounds like you are _ welcome to newsnight. good evening, sounds like you are all _ welcome to newsnight. good evening, sounds like you are all fired _ welcome to newsnight. good evening, sounds like you are all fired up - sounds like you are all fired up tonight. sounds like you are all fired up toniaht. �* , ., . ., tonight. don't blame me. what will the be tonight. don't blame me. what will they be thinking? _ tonight. don't blame me. what will they be thinking? will— tonight. don't blame me. what will they be thinking? will they - tonight. don't blame me. what will they be thinking? will they be i they be thinking? will they be afraid? ., ., ., ., afraid? you have it all wrong. the thing astra _ afraid? you have it all wrong. the thing astra not _ afraid? you have it all wrong. the thing astra not to _ afraid? you have it all wrong. the thing astra not to do _ afraid? you have it all wrong. the thing astra not to do for- afraid? you have it all wrong. the thing astra not to do for a - afraid? you have it all wrong. the thing astra not to do for a living l thing astra not to do for a living as we sign up for a life of service and then we train for decades on the hopes that we will have a chance for an extended stay in space, so this is a tremendous boon and a really rare experience and suni williams and butch wilmor who are up there right now, they are thriving and having the time of their life. this is what they do for a living so it is what they do for a living so it is funny that you couch it has stranded in space, that is what astra not to do. we look at it has people were stranded on earth and don't get to go anywhere else so it is an interesting perspective. i love it because you are portraying me as snowflake journalist meets true blue astronaut and they accept that criticism because it seems to

me on the face of it to be an unplanned stay in the space with failing thrusters. you are a novelist now, and unplanned stay in space with fading boosters is not a good? it space with fading boosters is not a aood? , , ., good? it is the first flight that eo - le good? it is the first flight that people have _ good? it is the first flight that people have ever— good? it is the first flight that people have ever taken i good? it is the first flight that people have ever taken on i good? it is the first flight that | people have ever taken on this vehicle and if you look back on the history, i was a combat fighter pilot and i was a test pilot, and if you look at the first flight of new vehicles they are always plagued with problems. the first flight of the space shuttle barely made it back, it had some tremendous problems, so none of this is new. the big bonus is they are not stranded, they are actually docked to the international space station, so they can stay there indefinitely while they look at the problem, try and make sure they know everything they can possibly know to make it as safe as possible for the astronauts when they return to earth.- when they return to earth. forgive me, i am when they return to earth. forgive me. i am making _ when they return to earth. forgive me, i am making it— when they return to earth. forgive me, i am making it worse - when they return to earth. forgive me, i am making it worse by- when they return to earth. forgive i me, i am making it worse by shouting at you, but we are looking at pictures you took from the iss. we

are seeing beautiful green reefs, this beautiful planet that in britain we love to put sewage in the sea. these are amazing pictures. you remind me now of what you said at first, the people that are stuck they don't feel stuck when they are looking at that. it is they don't feel stuck when they are looking at that.— looking at that. it is one of the rarest and _ looking at that. it is one of the rarest and most _ looking at that. it is one of the rarest and most exquisite i looking at that. it is one of the i rarest and most exquisite places i have been in my life and i have flown in space three times. the thing you are maybe also missing is the huge risk is the launch. more risk per second than anything i have donein risk per second than anything i have done in my life and that succeeded and they got safely to the space station and now they are doing all the research for as long as they can and while they are they are there helping to run 200 experiments on the space station, completely dug in as part of the crew, and as soon as all the research we can do is done they will come back on the vehicle that nasa decides is the safest. i

think it is different perhaps than it seems. . ~ think it is different perhaps than it seems. ., ,, , ., think it is different perhaps than it seems. . ~' , ., ~' it seems. thank you. i think there is even a clip _ it seems. thank you. i think there is even a clip of _ it seems. thank you. i think there is even a clip of you _ it seems. thank you. i think there is even a clip of you singing i it seems. thank you. i think there is even a clip of you singing the i is even a clip of you singing the song i mentioned earlier but we will get back to that. ilice song i mentioned earlier but we will get back to that.— get back to that. nice to talk to ou. get back to that. nice to talk to you- where _ get back to that. nice to talk to you- where you _ get back to that. nice to talk to you. where you inspired - get back to that. nice to talk to you. where you inspired by i get back to that. nice to talk to you. where you inspired by the | you. where you inspired by the astronauts? _ you. where you inspired by the astronauts? if _ you. where you inspired by the astronauts? if i _ you. where you inspired by the astronauts? if i ever— you. where you inspired by the astronauts? if i ever get i you. where you inspired by the astronauts? if i ever get a i you. where you inspired by the i astronauts? if i ever get a failing car i will get _ astronauts? if i ever get a failing car i will get him _ astronauts? if i ever get a failing car i will get him to _ astronauts? if i ever get a failing car i will get him to explain i astronauts? if i ever get a failing car i will get him to explain it. i car i will get him to explain it. that is the right stuff! the finest wa of that is the right stuff! the finest way of describing _ that is the right stuff! the finest way of describing failing - that is the right stuff! the finest i way of describing failing boosters. he is behind you smiling. this is leadership and we need more of this town on earth, we need someone to take us to the shining city on the hill. ~ ., . ., , take us to the shining city on the hill. . ., . ., , ., ., hill. we are certainly failing on the leading — hill. we are certainly failing on the leading front _ hill. we are certainly failing on the leading front but _ hill. we are certainly failing on the leading front but it - hill. we are certainly failing on the leading front but it is i hill. we are certainly failing on i the leading front but it is because we have _ the leading front but it is because we have watched so many movies with things— we have watched so many movies with things going wrong and that is why we read _ things going wrong and that is why we read it— things going wrong and that is why we read it that way. it is interesting and i am glad to hear that it _ interesting and i am glad to hear that it is — interesting and i am glad to hear that it is all under control. thank ou ve that it is all under control. thank you very much. _ that it is all under control. thank you very much. i— that it is all under control. thank you very much, ithink— that it is all under control. thank you very much, i think you i that it is all under control. thank you very much, i think you put i that it is all under control. thank you very much, i think you put it| you very much, i think you put it very well. always nice to have something good to look forward to. i feel i should say thank you very

much while i stumbled through the papers, very nice to hear you and i mean what i say, interesting to hear the ways you come together and thank you for returning to newsnight. let's take a quick look at a few of the stories on the front pages. we start with the daily mail, so much for an economic crisis. chancellor rachel reeves came under fire after her doom laden claims about the tory economy were left in tatters. the financial times, recession fears ease as a robust retail sales raise us hopes for soft landing. and below, chat gpt surprises english speakers by providing answers in fluent welsh. the daily telegraph, the story at the top is of the 20 doses of keita man that killed matthew perry. the friends legend who gave a memorable interview tojeremy newsnight in 2013, you can look for that if you wish to online. dm plasma