waiting for sue gray to win or lose a downing street power struggle? are those rumours true?

hello, welcome to newsnight with insight and interviews. strike—busting public sector pay deals are emerging tonight strike busting pay deals are emerging as the new governments policy. junior doctors will vote on a deal worth 22% over two years. the chancellor rachel reeves has said settling disputes left from the tory days will save the nation billions and boost growth. but who's going to pay? our guests with political hawkeyes are stephen bush, ava santina evans and jo tanner. dave penman is general secretary of the fda, the trade union for civil servants.

dave, nice to see you. good evening. it feels like night and day to me, the policy of the conservative government a couple of months ago, and the policy of the labour government now.— and the policy of the labour government now. and the policy of the labour covernment now. , ~ ., , government now. yes, i think that is true, the government now. yes, i think that is true. they have _ government now. yes, i think that is true, they have come with _ government now. yes, i think that is true, they have come with an - government now. yes, i think that is| true, they have come with an agenda to draw a line under these disputes. to settle disputes that cripple most of the public services. most of those disputes have not only been running for several months or years, but they were a long time in the making because of the problems around austerity, long—term issues overpay as well, as the problems of inflation. fin overpay as well, as the problems of inflation. ., ., , . ., inflation. on inflation, they could have had an _ inflation. on inflation, they could have had an inflation _ inflation. on inflation, they could have had an inflation deal, - inflation. on inflation, they could have had an inflation deal, but i have had an inflation deal, but there has been an inflation plus deal. are you surprised at that? most of those deals were done as a result of evidence from pay review bodies. the point of pay review bodies. the point of pay review bodies is to get evidence from the government and from the unions and

to look at the issues challenging those areas. at to look at the issues challenging those arm-— to look at the issues challenging those areas._ that i to look at the issues challenging | those areas._ that is those areas. at about 596. that is what the pay _ those areas. at about 596. that is what the pay review _ those areas. at about 596. that is what the pay review body - what the pay review body recommended.— what the pay review body recommended. ~ , ., , , , . recommended. were you suspected it would be less? _ recommended. were you suspected it would be less? labour— recommended. were you suspected it would be less? labour has _ recommended. were you suspected it would be less? labour has only - recommended. were you suspected it would be less? labour has only been | would be less? labour has only been in the government _ would be less? labour has only been in the government for— would be less? labour has only been in the government for a _ would be less? labour has only been in the government for a few - in the government for a few weeks and inevitably the government will have to choose and there are people who want labour to write a check. i think they send a signal to public service that they would honour independent evidence from pay review bodies and i think that is a good sign. if you want to improve public services, you need to be able to recruit and retain public servants. used the phrase to govern is to choose. here is the choice of plato, 10 million pensioners of universal winter fuel payments. age uk has said that has infuriated pensioners, many of whom have written to them, saying they have been given a lower priority is pensioners than the disputes and the strikes. that is the choices _

disputes and the strikes. that is the choices government - disputes and the strikes. that is the choices government has to i disputes and the strikes. that is - the choices government has to make. do you accept that comparison? it is do you accept that comparison? it is not 'ust do you accept that comparison? it is notjust that- — do you accept that comparison? it is notjust that. pensioners, _ do you accept that comparison? it is notjust that. pensioners, no, - notjust that. pensioners, no, strikers. _ notjust that. pensioners, no, strikers. yes- _ notjust that. pensioners, no, strikers, yes. that _ notjust that. pensioners, no, strikers, yes. that is - notjust that. pensioners, no, strikers, yes. that is not - strikers, yes. that is not the choice. strikers, yes. that is not the choice- is — strikers, yes. that is not the choice. is that _ strikers, yes. that is not the choice. is that the _ strikers, yes. that is not the choice. is that the choice - strikers, yes. that is not the l choice. is that the choice they strikers, yes. that is not the - choice. is that the choice they have made? the — choice. is that the choice they have made? the government _ choice. is that the choice they have made? the government spends - choice. is that the choice they have - made? the government spends money on eve hint made? the government spends money on everything we _ made? the government spends money on everything we deal _ made? the government spends money on everything we deal with, _ made? the government spends money on everything we deal with, whether - made? the government spends money on everything we deal with, whether it - everything we deal with, whether it is roads, nhs, teaching, defence, there are a lot of choices they have to make, it is not 1.4 pensioners and one port for civil servants. the government have made their political choices and have drawn a line over a long term disputes that are crippling public services, many of those that pensioners rely on, and making sure that we can improve and retain key public servants has been one of their significant aim is when the indian government. if one of their significant aim is when the indian government.— the indian government. if you look at the contagion _ the indian government. if you look at the contagion and _ the indian government. if you look at the contagion and the _ the indian government. if you look at the contagion and the mission l at the contagion and the mission creep, mick lynch has already said he wants a deal matching the aslef deal, so we can say that paying off one, you need to pay off the other. he says that, but the government will need to decide whether he has

got a legitimate claim and whether they want to satisfy that. he got a legitimate claim and whether they want to satisfy that.— they want to satisfy that. he said they want to satisfy that. he said the will they want to satisfy that. he said they will continue _ they want to satisfy that. he said they will continue to _ they want to satisfy that. he said | they will continue to strike unless they will continue to strike unless they synchronise the pay. my point is that his mission creep and pay off strikers. it is that his mission creep and pay off strikers— off strikers. it is not about mission — off strikers. it is not about mission creep, _ off strikers. it is not about mission creep, it - off strikers. it is not about mission creep, it is - off strikers. it is not about mission creep, it is about| mission creep, it is about understanding if you are public services and trains to run and hospitals to work and teachers to teach children, then you have to recruit and retain the talent that you have got in public services. what has been happening for more than a decade is pay has been suppressed for those key bits of the workforce. so dealing with that is what labour have started to do. there are lots of long—term issues that have to be addressed. this is only one pay round in one summer post the year of record inflation. what their approach is over the longer term will be more interesting than what they have done in this one pay round. than what they have done in this one -a round. , ., ., ,, a pay round. here is another kick, aslef are going _ pay round. here is another kick, aslef are going on _ pay round. here is another kick, aslef are going on strike - pay round. here is another kick, aslef are going on strike after. pay round. here is another kick, i aslef are going on strike after they were offered this pay. there is a strike on lner. i were offered this pay. there is a strike on lner.—

were offered this pay. there is a strike on lner. i am sure they have a reason to — strike on lner. i am sure they have a reason to do that. _ strike on lner. i am sure they have a reason to do that. i _ strike on lner. i am sure they have a reason to do that. i thought - strike on lner. i am sure they have a reason to do that. i thought this l a reason to do that. i thought this was to draw _ a reason to do that. i thought this was to draw a _ a reason to do that. i thought this was to draw a line _ a reason to do that. i thought this was to draw a line under - was to draw a line under conservative austerity and now there is another strike.— is another strike. there are a whole load of areas _ is another strike. there are a whole load of areas that _ is another strike. there are a whole load of areas that labour _ is another strike. there are a whole load of areas that labour have - is another strike. there are a whole i load of areas that labour have been trying to settle. the true individual disputes are only one aspect of that. if you look at what they have done in terms of teaching and the nhs, and public servants, they have listened to the evidence of what do you need? if you want teachers to teach and nurses to look after people, what do you need to do to recruit and retain them? the delays you have seen whether it is on trains or hospitals or the problems in schools, are only solved if you have got public servants working in them and that has been the change of approach, the night and day you talked about for what we have seen over the last few weeks. dave, thank you for addressing this with us. we would like you to stay because you know sue gray very well and we were very much like you to stay with us. let's come to our panel now. stephen bush, associate editor

at the financial times, ava santina evans is correspondent at politichoe, and jo tanner is the strategist who was political advisor to borisjohnson. thank you all for coming. is this a victory for the unions? i thank you all for coming. is this a victory for the unions?— victory for the unions? i think it is possibly _ victory for the unions? i think it is possibly a — victory for the unions? i think it is possibly a pr _ victory for the unions? i think it is possibly a pr disaster- victory for the unions? i think it is possibly a pr disaster for- victory for the unions? i think it i is possibly a pr disaster for aslef to pick this fight so early, to have the pay deal done and then to come out with this second issue or action that they have called. i am not sure i have got across louise hay, the new secretary of transport. it will be interesting to see if this is something... it feels a bit like they have pulled the rug quite quickly because they were still reeling from the deal and absorbing the and then suddenly this action has been called and i'm not sure it is a smart move. in has been called and i'm not sure it is a smart move.— has been called and i'm not sure it is a smart move. in other words, the second strike i _ is a smart move. in other words, the second strike i was talking _ second strike i was talking about with dave, that is a pr catastrophe for aslef? it

with dave, that is a pr catastrophe for aslef? , ., , with dave, that is a pr catastrophe foraslef? , ., , ., for aslef? it is really risky for them. for aslef? it is really risky for them- what _ for aslef? it is really risky for them. what about _ for aslef? it is really risky for them. what about this - for aslef? it is really risky for them. what about this line i for aslef? it is really risky for l them. what about this line that for aslef? it is really risky for - them. what about this line that it is a choice. _ them. what about this line that it is a choice, pensioners, - them. what about this line that it is a choice, pensioners, no, - is a choice, pensioners, no, strikers, yes? is a choice, pensioners, no, strikers. yes?— is a choice, pensioners, no, strikers, yes? is a choice, pensioners, no, strikers, es? , strikers, yes? there is some truth in that, but _ strikers, yes? there is some truth in that. but we — strikers, yes? there is some truth in that, but we shouldn't - strikers, yes? there is some truth in that, but we shouldn't forget i in that, but we shouldn't forget that the — in that, but we shouldn't forget that the triple lock when it goes up next year— that the triple lock when it goes up next year will benefit pensioners by much, more than the wealthiest pensioners will lose when the winter fuel allowance goes. it was introduced by gordon brown when most pensioners— introduced by gordon brown when most pensioners were in poverty. now pensioners— pensioners were in poverty. now pensioners are the richest demographic in the united kingdom, so i demographic in the united kingdom, so i think. _ demographic in the united kingdom, so i think, ultimately quite rightly pensioners are the main beneficiaries of us ending the retention crisis in the nhs because public— retention crisis in the nhs because public services is u—shaped, roughly speaking. _ public services is u—shaped, roughly speaking, used by the very young and the very— speaking, used by the very young and the very old. but the political economy of this is the wealthiest pensioners did not vote labour last time and _ pensioners did not vote labour last time and they are unlikely to vote labour_ time and they are unlikely to vote labour in — time and they are unlikely to vote labour in next time and i suspect when _ labour in next time and i suspect when we see that budget which will be full_ when we see that budget which will be full of— when we see that budget which will be full of very difficult choices, to use — be full of very difficult choices, to use rachel reeves' phrase, there will be _ to use rachel reeves' phrase, there will be new— to use rachel reeves' phrase, there

will be new taxes on the wealthiest pensioners in order to keep our promise — pensioners in order to keep our promise not to tax working people, the people — promise not to tax working people, the people who voted labour at the selection. _ the people who voted labour at the selection, and who they hope they will keep— selection, and who they hope they will keep voting for them. is it wise to pay — will keep voting for them. is it wise to pay off _ will keep voting for them. is it wise to pay off strikers? it - wise to pay off strikers? it has been reported as _ wise to pay off strikers? it has been reported as bad politics i been reported as bad politics because it _ been reported as bad politics because it looks like - been reported as bad politicsl because it looks like labour is kowtowing to _ because it looks like labour is kowtowing to the unions, - kowtowing to the unions, but actually — kowtowing to the unions, but actually this is _ kowtowing to the unions, but actually this is rather- kowtowing to the unions, but. actually this is rather pragmatic. if actually this is rather pragmatic. if you _ actually this is rather pragmatic. if you look at _ actually this is rather pragmatic. if you look at how— actually this is rather pragmatic. if you look at how expensive - actually this is rather pragmatic. if you look at how expensive a i if you look at how expensive a strike — if you look at how expensive a strike is — if you look at how expensive a strike is for— if you look at how expensive a strike is for the _ if you look at how expensive a strike is for the country, - if you look at how expensive a strike is for the country, if- if you look at how expensive a| strike is for the country, if you look— strike is for the country, if you look back— strike is for the country, if you look back at— strike is for the country, if you look back at the _ strike is for the country, if you look back at the teachers' - strike is for the country, if you i look back at the teachers' strike, or the _ look back at the teachers' strike, or the potential strike _ look back at the teachers' strike, or the potential strike that - look back at the teachers' strike, i or the potential strike that would have occurred _ or the potential strike that would have occurred later _ or the potential strike that would have occurred later this- or the potential strike that would have occurred later this year- have occurred later this year had the education secretary - have occurred later this year had the education secretary is - have occurred later this year had the education secretary is not i the education secretary is not reached — the education secretary is not reached a _ the education secretary is not reached a potential— the education secretary is not reached a potential pay- the education secretary is not reached a potential pay deal. the education secretary is not. reached a potential pay deal with the national— reached a potential pay deal with the national education _ reached a potential pay deal with the national education union, i reached a potential pay deal withi the national education union, the cost of— the national education union, the cost of paying _ the national education union, the cost of paying those _ the national education union, the cost of paying those teachers - the national education union, the cost of paying those teachers is i cost of paying those teachers is cheaper. — cost of paying those teachers is cheaper. the _ cost of paying those teachers is cheaper. the pay— cost of paying those teachers is cheaper, the pay rise, - cost of paying those teachers is cheaper, the pay rise, than- cost of paying those teachers is l cheaper, the pay rise, than those teachers — cheaper, the pay rise, than those teachers going _ cheaper, the pay rise, than those teachers going on _ cheaper, the pay rise, than those teachers going on strike. - cheaper, the pay rise, than those teachers going on strike. that - cheaper, the pay rise, than those teachers going on strike. that is| teachers going on strike. that is exactly— teachers going on strike. that is exactly the _ teachers going on strike. that is exactly the same _ teachers going on strike. that is exactly the same situation - teachers going on strike. that is exactly the same situation you l teachers going on strike. that is - exactly the same situation you have with the _ exactly the same situation you have with the trains. _ exactly the same situation you have with the trains.— with the trains. that is the rachel reeves argument _ with the trains. that is the rachel reeves argument in _ with the trains. that is the rachel reeves argument in a _ with the trains. that is the rachel reeves argument in a nutshell, . with the trains. that is the rachell reeves argument in a nutshell, all of this is costing us. you reeves argument in a nutshell, all of this is costing us.— of this is costing us. you don't get urowth if of this is costing us. you don't get growth if you _ of this is costing us. you don't get growth if you have _ of this is costing us. you don't get growth if you have got _ of this is costing us. you don't get growth if you have got people - growth if you have got people getting to work because there are no trains taking them. fine getting to work because there are no trains taking them.— trains taking them. one of the reasons the — trains taking them. one of the reasons the conservatives lost the election _ reasons the conservatives lost the election was the sense that nothing worked. _ election was the sense that nothing worked, 80% of people working for an

nhs procedure, schools, and tackling those _ nhs procedure, schools, and tackling those crisis are a key part to getting _ those crisis are a key part to getting elected.— those crisis are a key part to caettin elected. . ., ., . those crisis are a key part to heflin elected_ . ., ., ., �*, getting elected. what about that? as a former adviser _ getting elected. what about that? as a former adviser to _ getting elected. what about that? as a former adviser to boris _ getting elected. what about that? as a former adviser to boris johnson, i a former adviser to borisjohnson, the argument made here is we have come in as labour to clear up your nasty austerity. you bowled us back to the stone age and public services. do you think the tory record on austerity will haunt them, that they ran things into the ground and this is what labour is going to be saying? i and this is what labour is going to be sa inc? ~ and this is what labour is going to besa inc? ~ ., ., , be saying? i think it has already haunted them _ be saying? i think it has already haunted them to _ be saying? i think it has already haunted them to some - be saying? i think it has already haunted them to some extent. i haunted them to some extent. whenever anyone mentions george osborne, there is very little about a lot else that he did. for the tories the narrative has been very much set, which is everything was broken and are you guys, we have now got to come and unpack it. it is like buying a house and you find that the roof is caving in. how long that the roof is caving in. how long that lasts is another question. i that lasts is another question. i was going to say it is not even about— was going to say it is not even about austerity, _ was going to say it is not even about austerity, one - was going to say it is not even about austerity, one of- was going to say it is not even about austerity, one of the . was going to say it is not even| about austerity, one of the big problems—

about austerity, one of the big problems we _ about austerity, one of the big problems we have _ about austerity, one of the big problems we have had - about austerity, one of the big problems we have had over. about austerity, one of the big| problems we have had over the about austerity, one of the big - problems we have had over the last ten years. _ problems we have had over the last ten years, particularly— problems we have had over the last ten years, particularly with - problems we have had over the last ten years, particularly with rail, - ten years, particularly with rail, is privatisation. _ ten years, particularly with rail, is privatisation. in _ ten years, particularly with rail, is privatisation. in the - ten years, particularly with rail, | is privatisation. in the pandemic we were _ is privatisation. in the pandemic we were giving billions— is privatisation. in the pandemic we were giving billions and _ is privatisation. in the pandemic we were giving billions and billions- is privatisation. in the pandemic we were giving billions and billions of. were giving billions and billions of pounds _ were giving billions and billions of pounds to— were giving billions and billions of pounds to these _ were giving billions and billions of pounds to these rail _ were giving billions and billions of pounds to these rail companies i pounds to these rail companies to keep— pounds to these rail companies to keep them — pounds to these rail companies to keep them afloat. _ pounds to these rail companies to keep them afloat. at _ pounds to these rail companies to keep them afloat. at the - pounds to these rail companies to keep them afloat. at the same i pounds to these rail companies to i keep them afloat. at the same time, they were _ keep them afloat. at the same time, they were giving _ keep them afloat. at the same time, they were giving £35— keep them afloat. at the same time, they were giving £35 million - keep them afloat. at the same time, they were giving £35 million to - they were giving £35 million to their— they were giving £35 million to their shareholders. _ they were giving £35 million to their shareholders. the - they were giving £35 million to i their shareholders. the headlines today— their shareholders. the headlines today and — their shareholders. the headlines today and tomorrow— their shareholders. the headlines today and tomorrow that - their shareholders. the headlines today and tomorrow that will - today and tomorrow that will inevitably _ today and tomorrow that will inevitably come _ today and tomorrow that will inevitably come out - today and tomorrow that will inevitably come out are - today and tomorrow that will inevitably come out are thatl today and tomorrow that will. inevitably come out are that it is too expensive _ inevitably come out are that it is too expensive to _ inevitably come out are that it is too expensive to pay— inevitably come out are that it is too expensive to pay the - inevitably come out are that it is i too expensive to pay the workers, which _ too expensive to pay the workers, which is _ too expensive to pay the workers, which is almost _ too expensive to pay the workers, which is almost a _ too expensive to pay the workers, which is almost a redundant - too expensive to pay the workers, - which is almost a redundant argument because _ which is almost a redundant argument because it _ which is almost a redundant argument because it is _ which is almost a redundant argument because it is an— which is almost a redundant argument because it is an absolute _ which is almost a redundant argument because it is an absolute fraction. - because it is an absolute fraction. it is because it is an absolute fraction. it is about a — because it is an absolute fraction. it is about a tenth _ because it is an absolute fraction. it is about a tenth of _ because it is an absolute fraction. it is about a tenth of what we - because it is an absolute fraction. i it is about a tenth of what we gave them _ it is about a tenth of what we gave them during — it is about a tenth of what we gave them during the _ it is about a tenth of what we gave them during the pandemic. - it is about a tenth of what we gave them during the pandemic. find i them during the pandemic. and finally contagion, _ them during the pandemic. finally contagion, do you think them during the pandemic— finally contagion, do you think more pay deals will go up? 140. finally contagion, do you think more pay deals will go up? no, ultimately the thing that _ pay deals will go up? no, ultimately the thing that sets _ pay deals will go up? no, ultimately the thing that sets the _ pay deals will go up? no, ultimately the thing that sets the metric - pay deals will go up? no, ultimately the thing that sets the metric of - pay deals will go up? no, ultimately the thing that sets the metric of a i the thing that sets the metric of a pay deal is — the thing that sets the metric of a pay deal is canned that particular workforce — pay deal is canned that particular workforce of 40 strike? that is why the rail— workforce of 40 strike? that is why the rail unions always get a good deal. _ the rail unions always get a good deal. is a — the rail unions always get a good deal. is a government struggling to recruit— deal. is a government struggling to recruit the — deal. is a government struggling to recruit the workers in these? that is why— recruit the workers in these? that is why the big pay battles will be with teachers and train drivers, but also in _ with teachers and train drivers, but also injobs where people cannot afford to— also injobs where people cannot afford to strike where the government is struggling to recruit people. _ government is struggling to recruit people, like the care sector. the care sector _ people, like the care sector. the care sector are _ people, like the care sector. tie: care sector are people who people, like the care sector. ti2 care sector are people who cannot go on strike. it's an a level playing

field. , ., on strike. it's an a level playing field. , . , ., , ., on strike. it's an a level playing field. , . , ., ., field. they are the people who are not bein: field. they are the people who are not being talked _ field. they are the people who are not being talked about, _ field. they are the people who are not being talked about, they - field. they are the people who are not being talked about, they are l field. they are the people who are not being talked about, they are a i not being talked about, they are a bit of the nhs who no one is covering, apart from ed davey who raised it during the election. but day in, day out, if they were not to turn up for work, they know the names on the faces of the people who would be suffering and theyjust don't do it. would be suffering and they 'ust don-t do it.�* would be suffering and they 'ust don-t do itfi would be suffering and they 'ust don't do it. . don't do it. remember, during the last administration _ don't do it. remember, during the last administration their _ don't do it. remember, during the last administration their right - don't do it. remember, during the last administration their right to i last administration their right to bring _ last administration their right to bring their— last administration their right to bring their families _ last administration their right to bring their families here - last administration their right to bring their families here was. last administration their right to i bring their families here was taken away— bring their families here was taken away from — bring their families here was taken away from them _ bring their families here was taken away from them and _ bring their families here was taken away from them and a _ bring their families here was taken away from them and a lot - bring their families here was taken away from them and a lot of- bring their families here was taken away from them and a lot of theml bring their families here was taken. away from them and a lot of them are here on— away from them and a lot of them are here on poor— away from them and a lot of them are here on poor pay. _ away from them and a lot of them are here on poor pay, unable _ away from them and a lot of them are here on poor pay, unable to— away from them and a lot of them are here on poor pay, unable to strike - here on poor pay, unable to strike and they— here on poor pay, unable to strike and they are — here on poor pay, unable to strike and they are not _ here on poor pay, unable to strike and they are not with _ here on poor pay, unable to strike and they are not with their - and they are not with their families. _ and they are not with their families-— and they are not with their families. ~ . ._ families. we are under way, it is ve nice families. we are under way, it is very nice of _ families. we are under way, it is very nice of you _ families. we are under way, it is very nice of you to _ families. we are under way, it is very nice of you to come - families. we are under way, it is very nice of you to come and - families. we are under way, it is very nice of you to come and we | families. we are under way, it is - very nice of you to come and we want you to be with us to talk about our next subject when dave will join you to be with us to talk about our next subject when dave willjoin us again. a number ten power struggle is making headlines again. totally predictable rumours of downing street fireworks involving sue gray have made it into the papers just weeks into the new administration. she is the former partygate panjandrum said by some to be the most powerful woman in britain. we've found a rare television interview with her — as far as we know, it's the only one she ever did.

the highly—rated civil servant — who came from a working—class background — ran a pub in northern ireland before becoming permanent secretary of the department of finance there, but was then passed over for the top job. that's how she came to speak to the bbc belfast political correspondent gareth gordon in 2021. not everybody gets this kind of treatment. really? she laughs you are a bit of a mystery. i mean, i'm just going to read out some of the titles that i've heard applied to you. "deputy god". that's a good one. "the most powerful civil servant you've never heard of" or "the most powerful woman in britain". do you recognise those titles? they obviously relate to my formerjob. the deputy god title was that i worked for gus o'donnell, and his initials are god. so i was his deputy and, therefore, i was deputy god. i, er, you know, "the most powerful person you've never heard of" —

i, actually was just doing myjob. and i think that was some of your journalist colleagues probably actually devised that. but i suppose the mystery around you, this is the first interview you've ever done. yep. you were director general of the propriety and ethics team at the cabinet, and it said you did have the power to make or break political careers, and that is exactly what you did. so, i would always have just given my advice to the prime minister, and it was always the prime minister's decision. um, but thejob i was doing then was very different to thejob i do now, and i don't necessarily recognise all that you're saying about me. i'm not actually sure many permanent secretaries in whitehall have run a pub in newry. and you were with your husband in that venture, of course, and you still are. and he was not very good at it. he wasn't? no. um, so he hated the pub and, actually, most of the customers didn't like him either because he was quite miserable in it. so, he, after six to eight weeks,

it was making him a bit fed up. so i sent him back to london and i carried on running the bar on my own. whenever he was back, when he would come back or a short time, i would make sure that i booked him to sing and play music in the bar on a thursday and saturday night, and that went down quite well. um, but as for his bar skills, they're not the best. i think i felt i was being a bit pigeonholed in whitehall and, you know, why

didn't i get thejob? an extraordinary interview and perhaps it is maybe why sue gray has not done an interview subsequently. i think she gave a bit much away! i i think she gave a bit much away! i wonder if keir starmer knows that is how she treated her husband and what is in store for him! before we get into whether there is a power struggle. are there briefings to the

press there are power struggles? yes, there are briefings. i think yes, there are briefings. ithink the power— yes, there are briefings. ithink the power struggle _ yes, there are briefings. ithink the power struggle is— yes, there are briefings. ithink the power struggle is putting i yes, there are briefings. ithink the power struggle is putting it| yes, there are briefings. i thinki the power struggle is putting it a little too — the power struggle is putting it a little too strongly. _ the power struggle is putting it a little too strongly. but _ the power struggle is putting it a little too strongly. but what - the power struggle is putting it a little too strongly. but what is i little too strongly. but what is fascinating _ little too strongly. but what is fascinating about _ little too strongly. but what is fascinating about keir - little too strongly. but what isj fascinating about keir starmer little too strongly. but what is - fascinating about keir starmer for those _ fascinating about keir starmer for those of— fascinating about keir starmer for those of us — fascinating about keir starmer for those of us who _ fascinating about keir starmer for those of us who cover _ fascinating about keir starmer for those of us who cover this - fascinating about keir starmer for those of us who cover this stuff. fascinating about keir starmer for| those of us who cover this stuff as this is— those of us who cover this stuff as this is someone _ those of us who cover this stuff as this is someone who _ those of us who cover this stuff as this is someone who is _ those of us who cover this stuff as this is someone who is a - those of us who cover this stuff as this is someone who is a very- this is someone who is a very experienced _ this is someone who is a very experienced public— this is someone who is a very experienced public sector- experienced public sector bureaucrat. _ experienced public sector bureaucrat, who - experienced public sector bureaucrat, who really. experienced public sector- bureaucrat, who really knows what experienced public sector— bureaucrat, who really knows what he thinks _ bureaucrat, who really knows what he thinks when _ bureaucrat, who really knows what he thinks when it— bureaucrat, who really knows what he thinks when it comes _ bureaucrat, who really knows what he thinks when it comes to _ bureaucrat, who really knows what he thinks when it comes to criminal - thinks when it comes to criminal justice. — thinks when it comes to criminal justice. but— thinks when it comes to criminal justice, but whose _ thinks when it comes to criminal justice, but whose broad - thinks when it comes to criminal justice, but whose broad politics are slightly more half formed. he i has picked someone who like him is deeply steeped _ has picked someone who like him is deeply steeped in— has picked someone who like him is deeply steeped in how _ has picked someone who like him is deeply steeped in how whitehall- has picked someone who like him is| deeply steeped in how whitehall and institutions— deeply steeped in how whitehall and institutions work, _ deeply steeped in how whitehall and institutions work, and _ deeply steeped in how whitehall and institutions work, and her— deeply steeped in how whitehall and institutions work, and her politics i institutions work, and her politics are also— institutions work, and her politics are also not— institutions work, and her politics are also not entirely _ institutions work, and her politics are also not entirely clear. - institutions work, and her politics are also not entirely clear. therel are also not entirely clear. there is a lot— are also not entirely clear. there is a lot of— are also not entirely clear. there is a lot of anxiety— are also not entirely clear. there is a lot of anxiety at _ are also not entirely clear. there is a lot of anxiety at the - are also not entirely clear. there is a lot of anxiety at the top - are also not entirely clear. there is a lot of anxiety at the top of. is a lot of anxiety at the top of the labour— is a lot of anxiety at the top of the labour party— is a lot of anxiety at the top of the labour party where - is a lot of anxiety at the top of| the labour party where people is a lot of anxiety at the top of- the labour party where people go, i don't _ the labour party where people go, i don't really— the labour party where people go, i don't really know— the labour party where people go, i don't really know what _ the labour party where people go, i don't really know what downing - don't really know what downing street _ don't really know what downing street wants _ don't really know what downing street wants me _ don't really know what downing street wants me or— don't really know what downing street wants me or understandl don't really know what downing. street wants me or understand the politics— street wants me or understand the politics of— street wants me or understand the politics of what _ street wants me or understand the politics of what we _ street wants me or understand the politics of what we are _ street wants me or understand the politics of what we are doing. - street wants me or understand the politics of what we are doing. thei politics of what we are doing. the ower politics of what we are doing. power struggle is said to politics of what we are doing. tip; power struggle is said to be politics of what we are doing. power struggle is said to be with morgan mcsweeney who was going to be the politics guy and she was going to be the chief of staff. there was a was going to be this transition tension. but the briefing say she has moved his desk further away from the prime minister. yes. has moved his desk further away from the prime minister.— the prime minister. yes, there has also been a — the prime minister. yes, there has also been a bit _ the prime minister. yes, there has also been a bit of _ the prime minister. yes, there has also been a bit of counter - the prime minister. yes, there has also been a bit of counter briefingl also been a bit of counter briefing to that suggesting that the office that was chosen was not suitable for

the team and it meant he was moving back. you were never quite sure with this stuff. but there is no question thatis this stuff. but there is no question that is something going on. they have only been there a few weeks. normally, most people are still working out the best place to get a sandwich and where the toilets are. they are clearly already starting to have a sense of whose job is whose. even who was appointed by who. the prime minister was not the one ringing up people. jess phillips has open the talked about how she stood in the rain and got a phone call from sue gray which is not the way things are normally done.- from sue gray which is not the way things are normally done. dave, you know her. things are normally done. dave, you know her- do _ things are normally done. dave, you know her. do you _ things are normally done. dave, you know her. do you recognise - things are normally done. dave, you know her. do you recognise this - know her. do you recognise this tension? ~ ., . ., ,, ., , tension? well, no. what i know is that she is — tension? well, no. what i know is that she is a _ tension? well, no. what i know is that she is a really _ tension? well, no. what i know is that she is a really effective - tension? well, no. what i know is that she is a really effective civil l that she is a really effective civil servant — that she is a really effective civil servant and she was brought in by labour— servant and she was brought in by labour planning for running government. if you think about what the country— government. if you think about what the country has faced over the last few weeks— the country has faced over the last few weeks with the riots and the challenges there, sue was hot the heart _ challenges there, sue was hot the heart of— challenges there, sue was hot the heart of pollen government together on that. _ heart of pollen government together on that. i_ heart of pollen government together on that. i think most people would

say if— on that. i think most people would say if you — on that. i think most people would say if you want government to respond — say if you want government to respond to that situation, you would want someone like sue gray at the heart _ want someone like sue gray at the heart of it— want someone like sue gray at the heart of it -- — want someone like sue gray at the heart of it —— pulling the government. any new administration and particularly one coming from so many— and particularly one coming from so many years— and particularly one coming from so many years in opposition, will take time to— many years in opposition, will take time to find — many years in opposition, will take time to find its feet and we are seeing — time to find its feet and we are seeing a — time to find its feet and we are seeing a bit of that. different roles— seeing a bit of that. different roles and lots of people who work working _ roles and lots of people who work working for labour not getting roles in government because civil servants take those _ in government because civil servants take those roles and that takes time to settle _ take those roles and that takes time to settle down. so take those roles and that takes time to settle down-— to settle down. so you are saying this is a classic _ to settle down. so you are saying this is a classic rivalry _ to settle down. so you are saying this is a classic rivalry and - to settle down. so you are saying this is a classic rivalry and it - to settle down. so you are saying this is a classic rivalry and it is i this is a classic rivalry and it is bound to happen with people whose roles are being sorted out. but on the question we raised, listen to this, jess felix. jessjess phillips. so i was stood in the street in central london. it was absolutely chucking it down. and i was waiting for an uber, so i was looking at my phone, and sue gray called me. so i answered the phone. iwas like, "oh, hi, sue. how are you?" and we had a little bit of conversation about the election and stuff. and then she said, "anyway, jess, i just want to say,

do you want to come back into government?" they laugh that is sue offering her the job. that— that is sue offering her the job. that sounds rather positive and it tallies _ that sounds rather positive and it tallies with the briefing. it tallies with the briefing. sounds... tallies with the briefing. it sounds... the _ tallies with the briefing. it sounds... the prime - tallies with the briefing. it i sounds... the prime minister tallies with the briefing. it - sounds. .. the prime minister is sounds... the prime minister is meant to _ sounds... the prime minister is meant to do — sounds... the prime minister is meant to do that. _ sounds... the prime minister is meant to do that. it _ sounds... the prime minister is meant to do that. it is - sounds... the prime minister is meant to do that. it is missionl meant to do that. it is mission lead. meant to do that. it is mission lead- that _ meant to do that. it is mission lead. that is _ meant to do that. it is mission lead. that is meant _ meant to do that. it is mission lead. that is meant to - meant to do that. it is mission lead. that is meant to be - meant to do that. it is mission lead. that is meant to be the i lead. that is meant to be the patronage of the prime minister, not sue gray. it patronage of the prime minister, not sue gra . .. . sue gray. it tallies with the briefings — sue gray. it tallies with the briefings there _ sue gray. it tallies with the briefings there is _ sue gray. it tallies with the briefings there is a - sue gray. it tallies with the i briefings there is a bottleneck sue gray. it tallies with the - briefings there is a bottleneck with sue gray— briefings there is a bottleneck with sue gray and every decision and ministerial— sue gray and every decision and ministerial decision has to go through— ministerial decision has to go through her, which downing street has denied. .. through her, which downing street has denied. . ., , , ., has denied. that does lend itself to it. i have never— has denied. that does lend itself to it. i have never known _ has denied. that does lend itself to it. i have never known there - has denied. that does lend itself to it. i have never known there to - has denied. that does lend itself to it. i have never known there to be i it. i have never known there to be an orthodox _ it. i have never known there to be an orthodox way _ it. i have never known there to be an orthodox way of _ it. i have never known there to be an orthodox way of appointing - it. i have never known there to be i an orthodox way of appointing junior ministers. _ an orthodox way of appointing junior ministers. i— an orthodox way of appointing junior ministers. i feel— an orthodox way of appointing junior ministers. ! feel every— an orthodox way of appointing junior ministers. i feel every government i ministers. i feel every government transition — ministers. i feel every government transition i — ministers. i feel every government transition i have _ ministers. i feel every government transition i have covered _ ministers. ! feel every government transition i have covered both- transition i have covered both within— transition i have covered both within the _ transition i have covered both within the conservative - transition i have covered both within the conservative partyl transition i have covered both- within the conservative party and now with — within the conservative party and now with the _ within the conservative party and now with the labour _ within the conservative party and now with the labour party, - within the conservative party and - now with the labour party, somebody has gone. _ now with the labour party, somebody has gone. that— now with the labour party, somebody has gone, that was _ now with the labour party, somebody has gone, that was a _ now with the labour party, somebody has gone, that was a bit _ now with the labour party, somebody has gone, that was a bit weird. - now with the labour party, somebody has gone, that was a bit weird. i - has gone, that was a bit weird. i remember— has gone, that was a bit weird. i remember in— has gone, that was a bit weird. i remember in 2015 _ has gone, that was a bit weird. i remember in 2015 on _ has gone, that was a bit weird. i remember in 2015 on a - has gone, that was a bit weird. i remember in 2015 on a labour. remember in 2015 on a labour transition _ remember in 2015 on a labour transition as— remember in 2015 on a labour transition as it _ remember in 2015 on a labour transition as it was _ remember in 2015 on a labour| transition as it was happening, remember in 2015 on a labour. transition as it was happening, i was taking — transition as it was happening, i was taking a _ transition as it was happening, i was taking a labour— transition as it was happening, i was taking a labour contact - transition as it was happening, i was taking a labour contact out| transition as it was happening, i. was taking a labour contact out to dinner_ was taking a labour contact out to dinner and — was taking a labour contact out to dinner and they— was taking a labour contact out to dinner and they were _ was taking a labour contact out to dinner and they were bemoaning i was taking a labour contact out to i dinner and they were bemoaning the fate of— dinner and they were bemoaning the fate of the _ dinner and they were bemoaning the fate of the labour— dinner and they were bemoaning the fate of the labour party— fate of the labour party under jeremy— fate of the labour party under jeremy corbyn _ fate of the labour party under jeremy corbyn when - fate of the labour party under jeremy corbyn when the - fate of the labour party underl jeremy corbyn when the phone fate of the labour party under- jeremy corbyn when the phone went and it— jeremy corbyn when the phone went and it was— jeremy corbyn when the phone went and it was the — jeremy corbyn when the phone went and it was the chief— jeremy corbyn when the phone went and it was the chief whip's - jeremy corbyn when the phone went and it was the chief whip's office - and it was the chief whip's office and it was the chief whip's office and asking — and it was the chief whip's office and asking them _ and it was the chief whip's office and asking them if— and it was the chief whip's office and asking them if they- and it was the chief whip's office and asking them if they would i and it was the chief whip's office i and asking them if they would take and it was the chief whip's office - and asking them if they would take a shadow— and asking them if they would take a shadow ministerial— and asking them if they would take a shadow ministerialjob. _ and asking them if they would take a shadow ministerialjob. it— and asking them if they would take a shadow ministerialjob. it is- and asking them if they would take a shadow ministerialjob. it is very- shadow ministerialjob. it is very rare that — shadow ministerialjob. it is very rare that there _ shadow ministerialjob. it is very rare that there is _

shadow ministerialjob. it is very rare that there is the _ shadow ministerialjob. it is very rare that there is the recognisedj rare that there is the recognised procedure — rare that there is the recognised procedure for _ rare that there is the recognised procedure for that. _ rare that there is the recognised procedure for that.— rare that there is the recognised procedure for that. ultimately, you saw not sue _ procedure for that. ultimately, you saw not sue gray _ procedure for that. ultimately, you saw not sue gray offering - procedure for that. ultimately, you saw not sue gray offering jess - saw not sue gray offering jess phillips— saw not sue gray offering jess phillips the job, it was the prime minister. — phillips the “ob, it was the prime minister. �* . . phillips the “ob, it was the prime minister. �* , , ,, ., minister. because she speaks for him. that minister. because she speaks for him- that is _ minister. because she speaks for him. that is what _ minister. because she speaks for him. that is what she _ minister. because she speaks for him. that is what she does. - minister. because she speaks for him. that is what she does. shel minister. because she speaks for. him. that is what she does. she is his key special— him. that is what she does. she is his key special adviser _ him. that is what she does. she is his key special adviser and - him. that is what she does. she is his key special adviser and special| his key special adviser and special advisers _ his key special adviser and special advisers only operate with the authority— advisers only operate with the authority of the minister and in this case — authority of the minister and in this case the prime minister. and for somebody doing a chief of staff, that covers— for somebody doing a chief of staff, that covers any number of issues. there _ that covers any number of issues. there is— that covers any number of issues. there is a — that covers any number of issues. there is a key relationship, the trust _ there is a key relationship, the trust between the prime minister and the chief— trust between the prime minister and the chief of staff. this trust between the prime minister and the chief of staff.— the chief of staff. this is the woman who _ the chief of staff. this is the woman who knows - the chief of staff. this is the l woman who knows everything. the chief of staff. this is the - woman who knows everything. the the chief of staff. this is the _ woman who knows everything. the one person out of everyone in downing street who knows where everything is, she has been there for many years before, so she knows her way around. so to some extent, you can imagine it being a sense of not taking over, but a degree of that. i think the issue is they have to sort it out quite fast because it is not a good look. the things i have heard from other people that know keir starmer very well say it is not his style and he doesn't like this kind of personality stop playing very —— playing out. of personality stop playing very -- playing out-— playing out. access to the prime minister's time _ playing out. access to the prime minister's time is _ playing out. access to the prime minister's time is power - playing out. access to the prime minister's time is power and - playing out. access to the prime minister's time is power and if i

playing out. access to the prime l minister's time is power and if she is the chief of staff, we have rehearsed this argument, where you friends were dominic cummings? i worked with him a long time ago friends were dominic cummings? j worked with him a long time ago and it didn't work particularly well, did it? is it didn't work particularly well, did it? , , ., it didn't work particularly well, did it? , , . , , it didn't work particularly well, didit?, , did it? is this a timeless script and 'ust did it? is this a timeless script and just rehashing _ did it? is this a timeless script and just rehashing something, did it? is this a timeless script - and just rehashing something, that we love a power struggle at number 10, but access to the prime minister has always been a closely guarded commodity? bill has always been a closely guarded commodity?— has always been a closely guarded commodity? all those advisers will be tossinu commodity? all those advisers will be tossing for _ commodity? all those advisers will be tossing for the _ commodity? all those advisers will be tossing for the prime _ commodity? all those advisers will be tossing for the prime minister's| be tossing for the prime minister's time and there is still a fight from the transition from working for the labour party to working to number 10 —— tussling. especially for many advisers who have not quite made the cut and had appointments. being advisers who have not quite made the cut and had appointments.— cut and had appointments. being in o- osition cut and had appointments. being in opposition and _ cut and had appointments. being in opposition and lots _ cut and had appointments. being in opposition and lots of— cut and had appointments. being in opposition and lots of people - cut and had appointments. being in opposition and lots of people have i opposition and lots of people have access— opposition and lots of people have access to — opposition and lots of people have access to keir as leader of the opposition is different to being in government and the prime minister. the key— government and the prime minister. the keyjob— government and the prime minister. the keyjob sue gray has asked chief of staff— the keyjob sue gray has asked chief of staff is— the keyjob sue gray has asked chief of staff is access. the the key job sue gray has asked chief of staff is access.— of staff is access. the gate pupa. and sometimes _ of staff is access. the gate pupa. and sometimes could _ of staff is access. the gate pupa. | and sometimes could gatekeeper of staff is access. the gate pupa. - and sometimes could gatekeeper says no. . .. and sometimes could gatekeeper says no. , ., ., and sometimes could gatekeeper says no. , . ., , ., , , no. under trees are made, people put box notes in — no. under trees are made, people put box notes in -- _ no. under trees are made, people put box notes in -- the _ no. under trees are made, people put box notes in -- the gatekeeper. - no. under trees are made, people put box notes in -- the gatekeeper. they| box notes in —— the gatekeeper. they put notes in the box the prime minister used to get and take them

back out and that is not the way it is supposed to be. the prime minister is supposed to make decisions of their own and not always the chief of staff to do that for them. . ., . always the chief of staff to do that for them. ,, ., , ., ., for them. should i be at all concerned _ for them. should i be at all concerned there _ for them. should i be at all concerned there is - for them. should i be at all i concerned there is something for them. should i be at all - concerned there is something about for them. should i be at all _ concerned there is something about a working—class woman who achieves great heights being knocked on the tv? , , ._ great heights being knocked on the tv? yes, i suppose unfairly. i think she has had — tv? yes, i suppose unfairly. i think she has had a _ tv? yes, i suppose unfairly. i think she has had a name _ tv? yes, i suppose unfairly. i think she has had a name made - tv? yes, i suppose unfairly. ! think she has had a name made for- tv? yes, i suppose unfairly. i think. she has had a name made for herself without her doing that during the borisjohnson administration. so she has been thrown out again to the public consumption. but has been thrown out again to the public consumption.— has been thrown out again to the public consumption. but if there is a fi . ht public consumption. but if there is a fight between — public consumption. but if there is a fight between morgan _ public consumption. but if there is i a fight between morgan mcsweeney public consumption. but if there is - a fight between morgan mcsweeney and sue gray, she wins already on profile. the people in the street don't know who he is and many more people know who she is. she has won. there have been _ people know who she is. she has won. there have been quite _ people know who she is. she has won. there have been quite a _ people know who she is. she has won. there have been quite a lot _ people know who she is. she has won. there have been quite a lot of- there have been quite a lot of chiefs — there have been quite a lot of chiefs of— there have been quite a lot of chiefs of staff _ there have been quite a lot of chiefs of staff under - there have been quite a lot of chiefs of staff under keir - there have been quite a lot of. chiefs of staff under keir starmer who have — chiefs of staff under keir starmer who have tussled _ chiefs of staff under keir starmer who have tussled with _ chiefs of staff under keir starmer who have tussled with morgan i who have tussled with morgan mcsweeney _ who have tussled with morgan mcsweeney and _ who have tussled with morgan mcsweeney and he _ who have tussled with morgan mcsweeney and he is - who have tussled with morgan mcsweeney and he is still- who have tussled with morgan i mcsweeney and he is still there! he's laughing! _ mcsweeney and he is still there! he's laughing! the _ mcsweeney and he is still there! he's laughing! the story- mcsweeney and he is still there! he's laughing! the story of- mcsweeney and he is still there! i he's laughing! the story of labour party— he's laughing! the story of labour party politics _ he's laughing! the story of labour party politics under— he's laughing! the story of labour party politics under keir _ he's laughing! the story of labour party politics under keir starmer i party politics under keir starmer has mostly— party politics under keir starmer has mostly been _ party politics under keir starmer has mostly been that _ party politics under keir starmer has mostly been that morgan . party politics under keir starmer - has mostly been that morgan always wins both— has mostly been that morgan always wins both internally— has mostly been that morgan always wins both internally and _ has mostly been that morgan always wins both internally and indeed - has mostly been that morgan always wins both internally and indeed i- wins both internally and indeed i suppose — wins both internally and indeed i suppose externally _ wins both internally and indeed i suppose externally in _ wins both internally and indeed i suppose externally in the - wins both internally and indeed i suppose externally in the most i suppose externally in the most recent — suppose externally in the most recent election. _ suppose externally in the most recent election. where - suppose externally in the most recent election. where this - suppose externally in the most recent election. where this is i

suppose externally in the most| recent election. where this is a story— recent election. where this is a story of— recent election. where this is a story of real _ recent election. where this is a story of real impact _ recent election. where this is a story of real impact is - recent election. where this is a story of real impact is that - recent election. where this is a | story of real impact is that what recent election. where this is a i story of real impact is that what it comes— story of real impact is that what it comes down— story of real impact is that what it comes down to _ story of real impact is that what it comes down to ask— story of real impact is that what it comes down to ask an _ story of real impact is that what it comes down to ask an anxiety - story of real impact is that what it i comes down to ask an anxiety across the labour— comes down to ask an anxiety across the labour party— comes down to ask an anxiety across the labour party is— comes down to ask an anxiety across the labour party is they _ comes down to ask an anxiety across the labour party is they don't - the labour party is they don't necessarily— the labour party is they don't necessarily know— the labour party is they don't necessarily know when - the labour party is they don't i necessarily know when someone the labour party is they don't - necessarily know when someone says downing _ necessarily know when someone says downing street wants _ necessarily know when someone says downing street wants x, does - necessarily know when someone says downing street wants x, does that i downing street wants x, does that mean _ downing street wants x, does that mean keir— downing street wants x, does that mean keir starmer— downing street wants x, does that mean keir starmer once _ downing street wants x, does that mean keir starmer once x? - downing street wants x, does that mean keir starmer once x? does. downing street wants x, does that. mean keir starmer once x? does that mean _ mean keir starmer once x? does that mean the _ mean keir starmer once x? does that mean the relevant _ mean keir starmer once x? does that mean the relevant age _ mean keir starmer once x? does that mean the relevant age they— mean keir starmer once x? does that mean the relevant age they are - mean the relevant age they are talking — mean the relevant age they are talking to — mean the relevant age they are talking to once _ mean the relevant age they are talking to once it? _ mean the relevant age they are talking to once it? does - mean the relevant age they are talking to once it? does it- mean the relevant age they are | talking to once it? does it mean mean the relevant age they are - talking to once it? does it mean the departmental— talking to once it? does it mean the departmental minister— talking to once it? does it mean the departmental minister is ventral - departmental minister is ventral closing — departmental minister is ventral closing downing _ departmental minister is ventral closing downing street- departmental minister is ventral closing downing street and - departmental minister is ventral i closing downing street and hoping they get— closing downing street and hoping they get their— closing downing street and hoping they get their way? _ closing downing street and hoping they get their way? does - closing downing street and hoping they get their way? does it - closing downing street and hoping they get their way? does it meani they get their way? does it mean rache!— they get their way? does it mean rachel reeves— they get their way? does it mean rachel reeves once _ they get their way? does it mean rachel reeves once x? _ they get their way? does it mean rachel reeves once x? that - they get their way? does it mean rachel reeves once x? that hasl they get their way? does it mean i rachel reeves once x? that has to they get their way? does it mean - rachel reeves once x? that has to be decided. _ rachel reeves once x? that has to be decided. who — rachel reeves once x? that has to be decided. who does _ rachel reeves once x? that has to be decided. who does speak— rachel reeves once x? that has to be decided. who does speak for- rachel reeves once x? that has to be decided. who does speak for the - decided. who does speak for the prime _ decided. who does speak for the prime minister? _ decided. who does speak for the prime minister? because - decided. who does speak for the prime minister? because the - decided. who does speak for the i prime minister? because the prime minister— prime minister? because the prime minister cannot— prime minister? because the prime minister cannot do— prime minister? because the prime minister cannot do all— prime minister? because the prime minister cannot do all that - prime minister? because the prime minister cannot do all that stuff - minister cannot do all that stuff i'm minister cannot do all that stuff i'm cell. — minister cannot do all that stuff i'm cell. �* ., , , , i'm cell. don't forget, it is silly season. i'm cell. don't forget, it is silly season- it _ i'm cell. don't forget, it is silly season. it is _ i'm cell. don't forget, it is silly season. it is the _ i'm cell. don't forget, it is silly season. it is the summer- i'm cell. don't forget, it is silly season. it is the summer and i i'm cell. don't forget, it is silly - season. it is the summer and a lot of stuff like this goes on. it might start to calm down. but of stuff like this goes on. it might start to calm down.— of stuff like this goes on. it might start to calm down. but whatever we sa , what start to calm down. but whatever we say. what an — start to calm down. but whatever we say, what an amazing _ start to calm down. but whatever we say, what an amazing interview- start to calm down. but whatever we say, what an amazing interview fromj say, what an amazing interview from northern ireland.— northern ireland. fantastic, and her oor northern ireland. fantastic, and her poor husband! _ lovers of lists are licking their lips over the 100 best—selling books of the last 50 years. compiled by the sunday times, the chart is a nostalgic rummage through the nation's shelves. life on earth by david attenborough is on there, along with the world according

to clarkson, by you know who. writing home by alan bennett, bill bryson's the lost continent, captain corelli's mandolin by louis de bernieres, and many more. in fact, up to 100. as it is a list of 100. how many did you read? as it is a list of 100. how many did ou read? �* .,, .. as it is a list of 100. how many did ou read? �* ., ., ., you read? i'm ashamed to say i have not some you read? i'm ashamed to say i have got some of— you read? i'm ashamed to say i have got some of them _ you read? i'm ashamed to say i have got some of them and _ you read? i'm ashamed to say i have got some of them and i _ you read? i'm ashamed to say i have got some of them and i have - you read? i'm ashamed to say i have got some of them and i have never i got some of them and i have never read any of them, ijust have them on a book shelf. i was pleased to see a gym mole and that took me back to my childhood. it see a gym mole and that took me back to my childhood-— to my childhood. it isn't a star loric to my childhood. it isn't a star logic because that _ to my childhood. it isn't a star logic because that came - to my childhood. it isn't a star logic because that came out i to my childhood. it isn't a star- logic because that came out when i was the age of the boy, 13 and three quarters. —— adrian mole. what does it tell us about ourselves? it quarters. -- adrian mole. what does it tell us about ourselves?— it tell us about ourselves? it tells us thins it tell us about ourselves? it tells us things that _ it tell us about ourselves? it tells us things that we _ it tell us about ourselves? it tells us things that we value _ it tell us about ourselves? it tells us things that we value and - it tell us about ourselves? it tells us things that we value and bring | it tell us about ourselves? it tells i us things that we value and bring us together. _ us things that we value and bring us together. delia smith has three entries. — together. delia smith has three entries. also about our vanity. the topmost _ entries. also about our vanity. the topmost selling book is a brief history— topmost selling book is a brief history of time which i think is one of the _ history of time which i think is one of the most — history of time which i think is one of the most bought books but not one of the most bought books but not one of the _ of the most bought books but not one of the most _ of the most bought books but not one of the most read. it of the most bought books but not one of the most read.— of the most read. it was so brief, i didn't aet of the most read. it was so brief, i didn't get passed _ of the most read. it was so brief, i didn't get passed number - of the most read. it was so brief, i didn't get passed number two, - of the most read. it was so brief, i i didn't get passed number two, page two of the brief history of time. how many have you read on the list?

the three delia smith books were always in our kitchen and god bless my mother, i don't think she ever opened them. they were a nice ornament in our kitchen. that opened them. they were a nice ornament in our kitchen. that is a shame because _ ornament in our kitchen. that is a shame because her— ornament in our kitchen. that is a shame because her carrot - ornament in our kitchen. that is a shame because her carrot soup i ornament in our kitchen. that is a - shame because her carrot soup recipe is an absolute essential. you need to tell your family to read it again. have you made it several times could muck welcome absolutely. where are you? men are from mars. women are from venus —— women from venus. i got through that. captain corelli's mandolin. i was in catalonia on wednesday. there are about a dozen. _ catalonia on wednesday. there are about a dozen. i _ catalonia on wednesday. there are about a dozen. i like _ catalonia on wednesday. there are about a dozen. i like the _ catalonia on wednesday. there are about a dozen. i like the eclectic. about a dozen. i like the eclectic mix. _ about a dozen. i like the eclectic mix. little — about a dozen. i like the eclectic mix. little book of calm. cooking books. _ mix. little book of calm. cooking books. some of the stuff by bill bryson. — books. some of the stuff by bill bryson. a — books. some of the stuff by bill bryson, a view of brits from a foreigner. _ bryson, a view of brits from a foreigner, that is quite nice. it foreigner, that is quite nice. it does foreigner, that is quite nice. does show foreigner, that is quite nice. it does show a great warmth and sense of humour. but what is missing? any favourite authors missing? i was favourite authors missing? i was surrised favourite authors missing? i was surprised e _ favourite authors missing? i was

surprised e l— favourite authors missing? i was surprised e ljames _ favourite authors missing? i was surprised e ljames wasn't - favourite authors missing? i was surprised e ljames wasn't on i favourite authors missing? m23 surprised e ljames wasn't on there. 50 shades trilogy. that took the world by storm. it is 50 shades trilogy. that took the world by storm.— world by storm. it is all we ever talked about _ world by storm. it is all we ever talked about for _ world by storm. it is all we ever talked about for a _ world by storm. it is all we ever talked about for a year - world by storm. it is all we ever talked about for a year and - world by storm. it is all we ever talked about for a year and a i world by storm. it is all we ever. talked about for a year and a half. that didn't appear. and i will sound like i have a theme, butjudy bloom was another big author that for many youngsters seem to be the book everybody read as a teenager. and i didn't see that either.— didn't see that either. when you think of the _ didn't see that either. when you think of the books _ didn't see that either. when you think of the books we _ didn't see that either. when you think of the books we are - didn't see that either. when you | think of the books we are looking at, or is there a common denominator? do we seem to have changed habits? men are from mars, that sort of seems a bit outdated now, the idea that you can explain away all of your relationship worries about wondering whether or not you and i will see life differently. i want to retreat to my man cave, i think the book says, and you want to see more regular signs of affection. you want to see more regular signs of affection-— of affection. sure, but a book on there which _ of affection. sure, but a book on there which i _ of affection. sure, but a book on there which i forget _ of affection. sure, but a book on there which i forget the - of affection. sure, but a book on there which i forget the full - of affection. sure, but a book on| there which i forget the full title, but it is not ok exploded on social media and the themes are exactly the

same as men from mars. how do you understand each other from same as men from mars. how do you understand each otherfrom different genders? understand each other from different renders? ~ .. . understand each other from different renders? ~ . , , , understand each other from different renders? . . , , , ., genders? what is interesting is that the perennial— genders? what is interesting is that the perennialthemes. _ genders? what is interesting is that the perennial themes. a _ genders? what is interesting is that the perennial themes. a lot - genders? what is interesting is that the perennial themes. a lot of- the perennial themes. a lot of self—help. a lot the perennial themes. a lot of self— help. a lot of the perennial themes. a lot of self—help. a lot of big books about the universe. thinking fast incredibly so. in fiction speaking to our— incredibly so. in fiction speaking to our deeper sense of what it means to our deeper sense of what it means to be _ to our deeper sense of what it means to be human. — to our deeper sense of what it means to be human. even about what down which _ to be human. even about what down which is _ to be human. even about what down which is technically about rabbits, but really— which is technically about rabbits, but really about loyalty and fraternity and friendship and death. and it _ fraternity and friendship and death. and it speaks to an access to a wider— and it speaks to an access to a wider world and opening new perspectives and whatnot. | wider world and opening new perspectives and whatnot. i was really surprised _ perspectives and whatnot. i was really surprised rosemary - perspectives and whatnot. m23 really surprised rosemary conley perspectives and whatnot. 11!"23 really surprised rosemary conley was on. again, another one of those books that became a phenomenon about peoplejumping around in their living rooms and different exercises people do, but also thinking about what they were eating, at the same time you saw delia smith and many of her books and the carrot soup. quite a lot she has put together that have

probably taken up lots of people's kitchen shelves.— kitchen shelves. yes. nostalgia is all over it- — kitchen shelves. yes. nostalgia is all over it. when _ kitchen shelves. yes. nostalgia is all over it. when i _ kitchen shelves. yes. nostalgia is all over it. when i saw _ kitchen shelves. yes. nostalgia is all over it. when i saw the - kitchen shelves. yes. nostalgia is all over it. when i saw the cover i kitchen shelves. yes. nostalgia is| all over it. when i saw the cover of watership down, it took me back to being about ten. it is the one i actually read, it is that copy. there was a great feeling of warmth about this list.— about this list. yes, 'ust looking at it, about this list. yes, 'ust looking at at, mccarthy-s — about this list. yes, just looking at it, mccarthy's akbar, - about this list. yes, just looking at it, mccarthy's akbar, a - about this list. yes, just looking at it, mccarthy's akbar, a great| at it, mccarthy's akbar, a great travel— at it, mccarthy's akbar, a great travel writer. that's quite a lot of travel _ travel writer. that's quite a lot of travel and — travel writer. that's quite a lot of travel and perspective on the world around _ travel and perspective on the world around us — travel and perspective on the world around us -- — travel and perspective on the world around us —— mccarthy's bar. a man named _ around us —— mccarthy's bar. a man named dave. — around us —— mccarthy's bar. a man named dave, also. you around us -- mccarthy's bar. a man named dave, also.— around us -- mccarthy's bar. a man named dave, also. you have created a new political — named dave, also. you have created a new political interview _ named dave, also. you have created a new political interview where - named dave, also. you have created a new political interview where you - new political interview where you should talk about books, more politicians and leaders to talk about their taste in books. thank you and i will scamper through the papers and if i get through quickly, perhaps you can comment on the front pages and i think you predicted them earlier. let's look. the times. strike pain for travellers, despite big wage rises. the front page of the times. as predicted by our

panel. the i.