is here in italy, where prime minister giorgia meloni's far—right coalition has been in power for almost two years. my guest today is nicola procaccini, a meloni confidante who is a member of the european parliament. how is far—right rule changing italy? nicola procaccini, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for your invitation. it's great to have you on the programme. now, your party, brothers of italy, led by giorgia meloni, has been in power here in italy for almost two years now. would you say that power and responsibility have moderated the ambitions

of your party? have they tamed your party? no, i don't think so. i think that when you are in charge, obviously you have to... ..to change something, especially in the... ..in the explaining, uh, in the...in the... ..in the way you...you talk, in the terms you use. but i think the policies of this government are very coherent with the electoral programme, with...with our vision, with our point of view. so i think... i guess some italians may be asking themselves that perhaps you campaigned making promises you couldn't keep. attilio lucia, the member of the league party, which is one of your coalition partners, another sort of far—right party in italy,

he's the deputy mayor of lampedusa, which, famously, is the place where so many of the undocumented migrants arrive when they're crossing the mediterranean sea from north africa. he says, "where did that giorgia meloni go "who was talking about a complete naval blockade "to stop these illegal migrants coming to our country? "where did she go? "i hoped that a right—wing government "would change our situation, but it hasn't." she never talked about a naval blockade. she talked about a navy operation to... ..to stop the illegal migration, to stop the human trafficking. because, you know, human trafficking now is the... ..the biggest business in the world, more than drugs or weapons. the numbers are down, but you... absolutely... the numbers are down, but you haven't stopped it. i mean, 25,000 plus... no, no, we...we...we...we stopped the... we are down now for the 60%, compared to the last... ..to the last year — 60%. and, listen, this is a success,

because everybody was ready to fight, to shoot against giorgia meloni, on the right and on the left. 0n the right, "ah, you promised the naval blockade." 0n the left, "ah, you are ready to kill the... "..the migrants in the sea." she remains calm. she adopted a different way, a longest way, but a successful way, because she immediately wrote, adopted some stricter laws. but in the...at the same time, she made agreements with the...the third countries, especially the one of origin and transit of migrants. yeah, you... she has had a good relationship

with ursula von der leyen and europe. and now the numbers are telling that giorgia meloni made the right choice. does giorgia meloni care about human rights and international law? because you talk about those agreements made with third countries, particularly the countries of origin of these migrants. yeah. and let's talk about libya, because there's a whole series of different independent investigations of what libya is doing in terms of locking up, detaining migrants who want to get to, for example, italy. and there is egregious abuse, to quote a un report — "murder, enforced disappearance, torture, "enslavement, sex violence, rape, other inhumane acts." this is happening while italy is sending tens of millions of euros a year to libya to help them deal with the migrants. no, it's not. ..exact. we made agreements with tunisia, with egypt, with albania... we'll talk... not... we'll talk about those countries.

i know. but i'd like to talk about libya. but libya... libya is a different situation. different, it's not safe as tunisia, it's not safe as egypt. but you are sending tens of millions of euros a year to libya. no, it's not correct. we are sending to tunisia. no, you're sending to libya too, to their coastguard service... the deal, the agreement... ..to their border security services. the agreement with libya is something of the past. in 2023, you had an opportunity to end the agreement with libya. you chose to renew the agreement. exactly, exactly. now, you can't choose your partners. you can't choose who is the... ..the ruler, the government in libya. you have to work with the ones that there are to try the way to work, even with the ones that you don't like. but it's the only way.

i don't think that a country can survive without a short, a small quota of legal migrants. so the only way to have legal migrants is fighting the illegal migrants. but we need it, so... and we'll get to that. you make an interesting point about countries in europe needing migrants, and we'll get to that because italy, goodness knows, needs migrants. you have a demographic crisis. even for them. but before we get to that... but not only for them. but, listen, this is something like fresh blood that you need. but since the history of humanity, the migration is a positive factor. the problem is the illegal, is the big wave, the massive migration. this is something that put in danger the lives of the migrants and the lives of the welcoming countries... so let's stick with that point forjust a second, if i may, that is,

trying to protect life. do you think it is good for italy's reputation that your government has told those humanitarian agencies who have boats on the mediterranean trying to rescue migrants at sea when their boats are in danger of sinking, you've told those humanitarian agencies that you will find them, you will impound their vessels if they continue to pick these people up? if you are talking about the ngos�* boats, uh, listen, they are not the solution of the problem. they are part... but these are people's lives at stake. they are part of the problem. where is the morality? where is the morality of telling these vessels, these human. . . humanitarian workers that they will be fined... no, they are... ..their vessels will be taken away if they continue to do that work? they are doing

for political reason. they are fighting a legitimate, uh, political battle. they are for a �*no borders�* world. i don't think that a no borders world is a world safe and...and peaceful. i think that we need borders, we need control the borders. we need to decide who can come to...to our land and who not. we have the...we... ..we must...establish who has the right to come because they are fleeing from persecution, a war, and who has not the asylum right. who has the opportunity to establish their right to be officially an asylum—seeking refugee... there are loads... ..if they are drowning, if they are drowning in the mediterranean sea and you...? you have to save it. come on. you have to save it. every life is in danger... why are you threatening to impound the vessels of the humanitarian agencies who are trying to save lives? because this is different. because sometimes it's sure that these vessels are working with the smugglers.

and this is something that you have to stop, you have to break, you have to stop the illegal departures. you have to realise hot spots on the external borders and there, uh, define, decide who has the right to come and who's not. to the ones that has the right to come, you have to give them a safe passage to come... ..uh, to ourland. you said something very interesting earlier about italy needing new blood, needing migrants. every country. do you think the people who voted for your party two years ago, and then voted again in the european elections, do you think they really want, as your government has now announced, that there will be over 800,000 legal new migrants over the next three years? i mean, do you think that's what people voted for?

no, yes. absolutely, yes. yes? ithink, uh... ..if you take a look at the polls, it's clear, we have a very pragmatic policy. we think we must govern the migration. and this is something new for italy, because we were under pressure for this illegal migration for 30 years and more. and for the first time, the italians are seeing something new, are seeing the government of migration. so you're severe, strict with illegal migration, but open to the legal migration. see, italy has shrunk by 1.5 million people over the last decade. i mean, you are losing population at a... ..at a really quite dramatic rate. this is the problem. this is the main problem of italy. how are you going...?

not only italy. how are you going to fix it? is it simply by bringing in more and more migrants? no, no, absolutely. i don't believe this is the solution. the way is not easy. but we have the tools to increase the... ..the birth rates at the same time, uh, we need a small quota of legal migrants because the small quota, you can...you can manage it. you can welcome it. this is the only way. and let me say another thing — i don't believe in the multiculturalism. i think that you must teach to the ones who come that we are a nation with its tradition, its culture, and we want to conserve it. see, this seems to me a big... and you have to love it. if i may say so, this seems to me a big problem with your current policies. 0n the one hand,

you're telling italians, "you know what? let's get real. "we have to have more and more, "hundreds of thousands of people come from overseas "to live in italy and work in italy, "because that's the only way we can keep our economy going." and yet, at the same time, you're saying, "we will never be a multicultural, truly, "you know, diverse, positive, diverse nation." multiethnic? yes. multicultural? not. this is the key. multicultural, no, ok. this is the key. so let me ask you a very simple question. today, do you think italy has a deep—seated racism problem? i think not, but obviously, uh, somewhere, sometimes could happen. uh, but in general, the italians are not racist. but because we are... did you read the report

that came out...? ..we are open people, open—minded people. so it's very rare, uh, racist episodes. do you think so? did you read the un committee on the elimination of racial discrimination report that came out this time last year, which talked about growing levels of hate speech against minorities in italy? particularly, they said, look at what is happening in sport in italy, where in professional football, for example, matches have to be cancelled because of racism, racist chants in the crowd. look at what has happened to the italian volleyball team, who won gold in the olympics, and one of their key players, paola egonu, whose parents came from nigeria, she has seen her picture defaced in posters in this city, rome. one member of the league, your coalition partner, said that paola egonu doesn't represent the vast majority of italians, who have white skin. no, i don't agree. obviously, i don't agree. he's your coalition partner. that is not my party. he's not your party, but you're in government with these people. yeah, obviously.

but he...he was elected in the european parliament and he has the right to stay there. but this is not my opinion. i think that paola egonu is italian, exactly like me. the colour of the skin is. . . not what matters. the problem is that you have to love your country. and paola egona...egonu is someone who loves her country. this is important for us, if you love or not your country. this matters. you don't think brothers of italy has a problem here? did you see the covert reporting done by the fanpage news organisation here in italy, where they showed young members of your party's youth wing making fascist salutes... no. ..shouting "sieg heil," praising �*uncle benito�*. that is, mussolini. these are young members of your party today. yeah, yeah, yeah.

listen, that report was not fair, um...and... well, you didn't like it. i don't know if that makes it not fair. no, it was not fair. listen. yes, you can see sometimes, especially in the stadium stands, you can see some young guys making the fascist salute. but, listen, um, honestly, they don't know nothing about fascism. they are doing that gesture only because it's against the system. it's a sort of gesture of rebellion, stupid, against the system... 0k. ..against the society. it's a full gesture of rebellion. nothing more than this. let's then talk about italy's positioning in europe and the wider world under brothers of italy government here in rome. do you see yourselves as part of that european movement, which would probably include viktor 0rban in hungary,

prime minister robert fico of slovakia, and others who are fed up with domination, as they see it, from brussels, who want a new europe, defined by nation states with the power and the right to pursue their own agenda, even if it conflicts with the so—called values of the european union — are you with them? no, we are not with them. we are in a different group, as you know. they founded another group in the parliament. but you... we are ecr... when the european parliament recently took a vote on whether to continue sanctioning hungary, you supported 0rban against... yes. yes, yes, yes. why? yes. because i think that it's a big mistake, uh, demonising viktor 0rban and, um, uh, pushing him, uh, in the hands of putin.

i think this was a big mistake. i defend the original idea of europe. listen, the original idea of europe is not a superstate, a european superstate. the original idea of europe is a confederal system, an alliance of nations that are together for doing few things, but very important. not exactly what's happening in the last... so that leaves you with difficult... ..in the last years. this means you have some difficult choices to make. for example, the rules of the eurozone, recently reinforced from brussels, say that you have to have a national debt which is below 60% of gdp. currently, italy's is 137%. you have to have a budget deficit which is 3% maximum of gdp. italy's is around 7%.

you're breaking the rules. are you prepared to continue to defy those rules or not? oh, yes, our public debt...is the main problem of italy. but let me, let me, let me say that...never... let me say that today, uh, we are having the best economic performance... but that's not my question. ..in the whole europe. but with respect, that's not my question. it's whether you're prepared to live by europe's rules when it comes to your fiscal... well, it's something that we must accept. uh, obviously, we would like a more elastic, um, managing of the national debts, because especially in this period, obviously, if you are too focused on the debt, this is a problem, especially now that we have... ..we are fighting against the inflation. so what i'm hearing,

mr procaccini, is that you have no intention of meeting the eu's rules, because if you say your priority has to be... we...we...we must accept we are in the european union, trying to promote our point of view, our vision. but obviously sometimes you must accept... 0k. ..that you are with other nations, with other... so if you accept the collective will, will you also accept the collective commitment of the eu to the green deal, which means that you have to do everything to get to carbon neutrality, net zero, by 2050? cos you personally have trashed that deal, said it's unacceptable. no, listen, listen. yes. if we talk about the green deal, the european green deal, we are talking about the worst mistake, uh, of the european union, of the european commission, in the last five years. but you just told me you have to live by the eu's collective will and rules. in a european union,

it's impossible that everything goes in the direction you prefer. uh, but when you are inside, when you are italy, you have the task to change what is not working. for example, we are in favour of a more pragmatic approach to the green deal. we share the climate target, but we think that, um, we must have a more pragmatic approach, less radical. you have to reach a balance. it's not easy, i know, but this is the goal, have a balance between human activity, human beings and nature. i began by asking you whether actually, in power, brothers of italy had been more pragmatic, maybe more moderate

than people expected. yes. and i'm getting the feeling that actually... i agree. ..that may be true. you know, there was a concern that giorgia meloni would, like some other far—right parties in europe, be supportive of vladimir putin. she hasn't been at all. she has committed italy to assist ukraine, militarily and financially. and be careful. even when giorgia meloni was not in charge, when she was at the opposition of draghi's government, she supported draghi's decisions. this is very important because this reveals the coherence of giorgia meloni. the italians are not happy to pay the... ..the aid for ukraine with their taxes. they are not happy. this is an unpopular, uh, choice.

but she's a leader. she's not a follower. if she thinks...if she thinks that that is the good choice, the right choice for having a peaceful order, international order, she hasn't fear to do the right choice. and a final thought about where you are going, your brothers of italy party, giorgia meloni as prime minister. would you say that actually, as time passes, it's clear that... ..that wielding power has changed giorgia meloni more than giorgia meloni has changed italy? in other words, she's becoming much more pragmatic. she's pragmatic. she's always have been pragmatic, has been pragmatic. i know her since we were teenagers. as you know, we grew up together.

she has always... she's been always the same. uh, she's... let me say, she's a woman. uh, and maybe the women are usually more pragmatic than the males, um, and... ..maybe this is one of the reasons she's the first, uh, woman to lead italy. uh, and this is why i think she's the right person in the right moment. nicola procaccini, thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thanks. thank you very much for your invitation.

hello there. monday was a little warmer, but for some parts of the country temperatures are going to climb even higher in the next couple of days. but, there will be some rain around as well and that rain is coming in from the atlantic. that weather front bringing some wetter weather into the north and west of the uk, and it's ahead of the weather front that we will find temperatures tending to rise in the sunshine. we should get some sunshine as the rain clears from northern ireland. some heavy rain in dumfries and galloway for a while, but the rain does ease off from much of scotland on tuesday as itjust stumbles into northern england, wales and the south—west. through the midlands towards the south east of england, east anglia, lincolnshire, it's going to be dry. there'll be some sunshine, it's going to be warmer as well. this is where the temperatures are starting to pick up, getting up to 2a or 25 degrees. so the temperatures are rising in the sunshine ahead of that weather front. and because it's moving so slowly, in fact, probably stopping on wednesday, the temperatures

could climb even higher. following on from that weatherfront, though, pressure�*s a bit lower in the north—west, so we're going to find some showers for northern ireland and scotland. some of them could be heavy and thundery, especially in western scotland. there's the weather front. there isn't much rain on it, but it's not moving very far at all. so again through the east midlands, lincolnshire, east anglia, the south—east — it's going to be the south—east — it's going to be warmer, temperatures getting up warmer, temperatures getting up to 27, possibly 28 degrees. to 27, possibly 28 degrees. now that is likely to be the peak now that is likely to be the peak of the heat because that of the heat because that weather front is finally weather front is finally going to move its way eastwards. going to move its way eastwards. little or no rain in the south. little or no rain in the south. a bit of rain for northern areas, a bit of rain for northern areas, but once that moves through, but once that moves through, then we're all into a westerly then we're all into a westerly breeze and that's going to bring breeze and that's going to bring with it cooler and fresher air. with it cooler and fresher air. in the sunshine, mind you. and again, we've got lower pressure and again, we've got lower pressure towards the north of the uk. towards the north of the uk. so we're going to find some showers so we're going to find some showers coming into northern ireland, coming into northern ireland, into scotland, perhaps the far north into scotland, perhaps the far north of england, but further south of england, but further south on thursday it should be dry on thursday it should be dry and there'll be quite a bit and there'll be quite a bit of sunshine as well. of sunshine as well. it is cooler air. it is cooler air. temperatures are going to be lower temperatures are going to be lower everywhere, only 16 or 17 everywhere, only 16 or 17 in scotland and northern ireland. in scotland and northern ireland.

pleasant enough further south pleasant enough further south in the sunshine, mind you. and here we've got higher pressure trying to build up from the south—west. it's keeping all this rain further away into the atlantic, and the low pressure in northern scotland tending to move away as well. so it's going to turn drier on friday for scotland for northern ireland and the far north of england. maybe a bit more cloud here with the sunnier

in from the north—west on sunday, perhaps early on monday. that then tends to move away. we keep low pressure towards the north of the uk, higher pressure in the south, so giving us a run generally of westerly winds. there won't be a lot of rain, i think for the outlook. most of the wet weather will be across the far north of scotland, so a lot of places are going to be dry and with higher pressure there'll be more sunshine, particularly in the south. and here we've got temperatures, a pleasant mid 20s for the start of course, of september.

criminality investigation. welcome to newsday, reporting welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, live from singapore, i'm steve lai. i'm steve lai. the headlines. the headlines. a huge russian air a huge russian air attack across ukraine — attack across ukraine — six people killed six people killed and dozens injured. the un says it's had to suspend and dozens injured. the un says it's had to suspend aid operations in gaza aid operations in gaza after israel ordered after israel ordered the evacuation of the area its the evacuation of the area its workers were operating from. workers were operating from. french authorities extend the detention of pavel durov — the founder of the social media

network telegram — as part of a cyber