across europe, political parties once regarded as too far right to get a sniff of political power are now winning elections, or getting mighty close. but what happens when they do achieve national office? well, the best case study in western europe right now is here in italy, where prime minister giorgia meloni's far—right coalition has been in power for almost two years. my guest today is nicola procaccini, a meloni confidante who is a member of the european parliament. how is far—right rule changing italy? nicola procaccini, welcome to hardtalk.

thank you for your invitation. it's great to have you on the programme. now, your party, brothers of italy, led by giorgia meloni, has been in power here in italy for almost two years now. would you say that power and responsibility have moderated the ambitions of your party? have they tamed your party? no, i don't think so. i think that when you are in charge, obviously you have to... ..to change something, especially in the... ..in the explaining, uh, in the...in the... ..in the way you...you talk, in the terms you use. but i think the policies of this government are very coherent with the electoral programme, with...with our vision, with our point of view. so i think...

i guess some italians may be asking themselves that perhaps you campaigned making promises you couldn't keep. attilio lucia, the member of the league party, which is one of your coalition partners, another sort of far—right party in italy, he's the deputy mayor of lampedusa, which, famously, is the place where so many of the undocumented migrants arrive when they're crossing the mediterranean sea from north africa. he says, "where did that giorgia meloni go "who was talking about a complete naval blockade "to stop these illegal migrants coming to our country? "where did she go? "i hoped that a right—wing government "would change our situation, but it hasn't." she never talked about a naval blockade. she talked about a navy operation to... ..to stop the illegal migration, to stop the human trafficking. because, you know, human trafficking now is the... ..the biggest business in the world,

more than drugs or weapons. the numbers are down, but you... absolutely... the numbers are down, but you haven't stopped it. i mean, 25,000 plus... no, no, we...we...we...we stopped the... we are down now for the 60%, compared to the last... ..to the last year — 60%. and, listen, this is a success, because everybody was ready to fight, to shoot against giorgia meloni, on the right and on the left. 0n the right, "ah, you promised the naval blockade." 0n the left, "ah, you are ready to kill the... "..the migrants in the sea." she remains calm. she adopted a different way, a longest way, but a successful way, because she immediately wrote, adopted some stricter laws.

but in the...at the same time, she made agreements with the third countries, especially the one of origin and transit of migrants. yeah, you... she has had a good relationship with ursula von der leyen and europe. and now the numbers are telling that giorgia meloni made the right choice. does giorgia meloni care about human rights and international law? cos you talk about those agreements made with third countries, particularly the countries of origin of these migrants. yeah. and let's talk about libya, because there's a whole series of different independent investigations of what libya is doing in terms of locking up, detaining migrants who want to get to, for example, italy. and there is egregious abuse, to quote a un report — "murder, enforced disappearance, torture, "enslavement, sex violence,

rape, other inhumane acts." this is happening while italy is sending tens of millions of euros a year to libya to help them deal with the migrants. no, it's not. ..exact. we made agreements with tunisia, with egypt, with albania... we'll talk... not... we'll talk about those countries. i know, i know! but i'd like to talk about libya. but libya... libya is a different situation. different, it's not safe as tunisia, it's not safe as egypt. but you are sending tens of millions of euros a year to libya. no, it's not correct. we are sending to tunisia. no, you're sending to libya too, to their coastguard service... the deal, the agreement... ..to their border security services. the agreement with libya is something of the past. in 2023, you had an opportunity to end the agreement with libya. you chose to renew the agreement. exactly, exactly. no, you can't choose your partners.

you can't choose who is the... ..the ruler, the government in libya. you have to work with the ones that there are to try the way to work, even with the ones that you don't like. but it's the only way. i don't think that a country can survive without a short, a small quota of legal migrants. so the only way to have legal migrants is fighting the illegal migrants. but we need it, so... and we'll get to that. you make an interesting point about countries in europe needing migrants, and we'll get to that because italy, goodness knows, needs migrants. you have a demographic crisis. even for them. but before we get to that... but not only for them. but, listen, this is something like fresh blood that you need. but since the history of humanity, the migration is a positive factor.

the problem is the illegal, is the big wave, the massive migration. this is something that put in danger the lives of the migrants and the lives of the welcoming countries... so let's stick with that point forjust a second, if i may, that is, trying to protect life. do you think it is good for italy's reputation that your government has told those humanitarian agencies who have boats on the mediterranean trying to rescue migrants at sea when their boats are in danger of sinking, you've told those humanitarian agencies that you will find them, you will impound their vessels if they continue to pick these people up? if you are talking about the ngos' boats, uh, listen, they are not the solution of the problem. they are part... but these are people's lives at stake. they are part of the problem. where is the morality? where is the morality

of telling these vessels, these human. . . humanitarian workers that they will be fined... no, they are... ..their vessels will be taken away if they continue to do that work? they are doing for political reason. they are fighting a legitimate, uh, political battle. they are for a �*no borders' world. i don't think that a no borders world is a world safe and...and peaceful. i think that we need borders, we need control the borders. we need to decide who can come to our land and who not. we have the...we... ..we must establish who has the right to come because they are fleeing from persecution, a war, and who has not the asylum right. who has the opportunity to establish their right to be officially an asylum—seeking refugee... there are loads...

..if they are drowning — if they are drowning in the mediterranean sea and you...? you have to save it. come on. you have to save it. every life is in danger... why are you threatening to impound the vessels of the humanitarian agencies who are trying to save lives? because this is different. because sometimes it's sure that these vessels are working with the smugglers. and this is something that you have to stop, you have to break, you have to stop the illegal departures. you have to realise hot spots on the external borders and there, uh, define, decide who has the right to come and who's not. to the ones that has the right to come, you have to give them a safe passage to come... ..uh, to ourland. you said something very interesting earlier about italy needing new blood, needing migrants. every country. do you think the people who voted for your party two years ago, and then voted again

in the european elections, do you think they really want, as your government has now announced, that there will be over 800,000 legal new migrants over the next three years? i mean, do you think that's what people voted for? no, yes. absolutely, yes. yes? ithink, uh... ..if you take a look at the polls, it's clear, we have a very pragmatic policy. we think we must govern the migration. and this is something new for italy, because we were under pressure for this illegal migration for 30 years and more. and for the first time, the italians are seeing something new, are seeing the government of migration. so you're severe,

strict with illegal migration, but open to the legal migration. see, italy has shrunk by 1.5 million people over the last decade. i mean, you are losing population at a... ..at a really quite dramatic rate. this is the problem. this is the main problem of italy. how are you going...? not only italy. how are you going to fix it? is it simply by bringing in more and more migrants? no, no, absolutely. i don't believe this is the solution. the way is not easy. but we have the tools to increase the... ..the birth rates at the same time, uh, we need a small quota of legal migrants because the small quota, you can...you can manage it. you can welcome it. this is the only way. and let me say another thing — i don't believe in the multiculturalism. i think that you must teach

to the ones who come that we are a nation with its tradition, its culture, and we want to conserve it. see, this seems to me a big... and you have to love it. if i may say so, this seems to me a big problem with your current policies. 0n the one hand, you're telling italians, "you know what? let's get real. "we have to have more and more, "hundreds of thousands of people come from overseas "to live in italy and work in italy, "because that's the only way we can keep our economy going." and yet, at the same time, you're saying, "we will never be a multicultural, truly, "you know, diverse, positive, diverse nation." multiethnic? yes. multicultural? not. this is the key. multicultural, no, ok. this is the key. so let me ask you a very simple question. today, do you think italy has a deep—seated racism problem? i think not, but obviously, uh, somewhere,

sometimes could happen. uh, but in general, the italians are not racist. but because we are... did you read the report that came out...? ..we are open people, open—minded people. so it's very rare, uh, racist episodes. do you think so? did you read the un committee on the elimination of racial discrimination report that came out this time last year, which talked about growing levels of hate speech against minorities in italy? particularly, they said, look at what is happening in sport in italy, where in professional football, for example, matches have to be cancelled because of racism, racist chants in the crowd. look at what has happened to the italian volleyball team, who won gold in the olympics, and one of their key players, paola egonu, whose parents came from nigeria, she has seen her picture defaced in posters in this city, rome. one member of the league,

your coalition partner, said that paola egonu doesn't represent the vast majority of italians, who have white skin. no, i don't agree. obviously, i don't agree. he's your coalition partner. that is not my party. he's not your party, but you're in government with these people. yeah, obviously. but he...he was elected in the european parliament and he has the right to stay there. but this is not my opinion. i think that paola egonu is italian, exactly like me. the colour of the skin is. . . not what matters. the problem is that you have to love your country. and paola egona...egonu is someone who loves her country. this is important for us, if you love or not your country. this matters. you don't think brothers of italy has a problem here? did you see the covert reporting done by the fanpage news organisation here in italy,

where they showed young members of your party's youth wing making fascist salutes... no. ..shouting "sieg heil," praising �*uncle benito�*. that is, mussolini. these are young members of your party today. yeah, yeah, yeah. listen, that report was not fair, um...and... well, you didn't like it. i don't know if that makes it not fair. no, it was not fair. listen. yes, you can see sometimes, especially in the stadium stands, you can see some young guys making the fascist salute. but, listen, um, honestly, they don't know nothing about fascism. they are doing that gesture only because it's against the system. it's a sort of gesture of rebellion, stupid, against the system... against the system... 0k. 0k. ..against the society. ..against the society. it's a full gesture it's a full gesture

of rebellion. of rebellion. nothing more than this. nothing more than this. let's then talk about let's then talk about italy's positioning in europe italy's positioning in europe and the wider world under and the wider world under brothers of italy government brothers of italy government here in rome. here in rome. do you see yourselves as part do you see yourselves as part of that european movement, of that european movement, which would probably include which would probably include viktor 0rban in hungary, viktor 0rban in hungary, prime minister robert fico prime minister robert fico of slovakia, of slovakia, and others who are and others who are fed up with domination, fed up with domination, as they see it, from brussels, as they see it, from brussels, who want a new europe, who want a new europe, defined by nation states defined by nation states with the power with the power and the right to pursue and the right to pursue their own agenda, their own agenda, even if it conflicts even if it conflicts with the so—called values with the so—called values of the european union — of the european union — are you with them? are you with them? no, we are not with them. no, we are not with them. we are in a different group, we are in a different group, as you know. they founded another group in the parliament. but you... we are ecr... when the european parliament recently took a vote on whether to continue

sanctioning hungary, you supported 0rban against... as you know.

say that you have to have a national debt which is below 60% of gdp. currently, italy's is 137%. you have to have a budget deficit which is 3% maximum of gdp. italy's is around 7%. you're breaking the rules. are you prepared to continue to defy those rules or not? oh, yes, our public debt is the main problem of italy. but let me — let me, let me say that...never... let me say that today, uh, we are having the best economic performance... but that's not my question. ..in the whole europe. but with respect, that's not my question. it's whether you're prepared to live by europe's rules when it comes to your fiscal... well, it's something that we must accept. uh, obviously, we would like a more elastic, um, managing of

the national debts, because especially in this period, obviously, if you are too focused on the debt, this is a problem, especially now that we have... ..we are fighting against the inflation. so what i'm hearing, mr procaccini, is that you've no intention of meeting the eu's rules, cos if you say your priority has to be... we...we...we must accept we are in the european union, trying to promote our point of view, our vision. but obviously sometimes you must accept... 0k. ..that you are with other nations, with other... so if you accept the collective will, will you also accept the collective commitment of the eu to the green deal, which means that you have to do everything to get to carbon neutrality, net zero, by 2050? cos you personally

have trashed that deal, said it's unacceptable. no, listen, listen, yes. if we talk about the green deal, the european green deal, we are talking about the worst mistake of the european union, of the european commission in the last five years. but you just told me you have to live by the eu's collective will and rules. in a european union, it's impossible that everything goes in the direction you prefer. uh, but when you are inside, when you are italy, you have the task to change what is not working. for example, we are in favour of a more pragmatic approach to the green deal. we share the climate target, but we think that, um, we must have a more pragmatic approach, less radical. you have to reach a balance.

it's not easy, i know, but this is the goal, have a balance between human activity, human beings and nature. i began by asking you whether actually, in power, brothers of italy had been more pragmatic, maybe more moderate than people expected. yes, yes. and i'm getting the feeling that actually... i agree. ..that may be true. you know, there was a concern that giorgia meloni would, like some other far—right parties in europe, be supportive of vladimir putin. she hasn't been at all. she has committed italy to assist ukraine, militarily and financially. and be careful. even when giorgia meloni was not in charge, when she was at the opposition of draghi's government, she supported draghi's decisions. this is very important

because this reveals the coherence of giorgia meloni. the italians are not happy to pay the... ..the heads for ukraine with their taxes. they are not happy. this is an unpopular, uh, choice. but she's a leader. she's not a follower. if she think...if she thinks that that is the good choice, the right choice for having a peaceful order, international order, she hasn't fear to do the right choice. and a final thought about where you are going, your brothers of italy party, giorgia meloni as prime minister. would you say that actually, as time passes, it's clear that... ..that wielding power has changed giorgia meloni

more than giorgia meloni has changed italy? in other words, she's becoming much more pragmatic. she's pragmatic. she's always have been pragmatic, has been pragmatic. i know her since we were teenagers. as you know, we grew up together. she has always... she's been always the same. uh, she's... let me say, she's a woman. and maybe the women are usually more pragmatic than the males, um, and... ..maybe this is one of the reasons she's the first, uh, woman to lead italy. uh, and this is why i think she's the right person in the right moment. nicola procaccini, thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk.

thanks. thank you very much for your invitation. hello there. when it comes to rainfall totals so far this month, there's quite a marked contrast between the northwest and the southeast. hardly any rainfall in comparison to what we should be seeing for this month, but further north and west, we've had double the amount of rainfall — over 200% in the far northwest of scotland and across the lake district as well. and in fact, that's where we're likely to see further rain to add to these totals to close out the month of august, potentially another 18mm in the extreme northwest, whereas hardly any traceable

usable rain once again across eastern england and southeast england. so, for monday, we are going to see a relatively dry, quiet day. this weak weather front, a band of cloud, a few nuisance showers close to the scottish borders, northern england and north wales. to the north and south of that, sunny spells, breezy, but the winds not as strong as over the weekend, and it will feel a little warmer, which is good news for many as it's the bank holiday weekend away from scotland, so highs likely of 23 degrees. as we move into tuesday, central and southern areas under this influence of high pressure into the near continent, but a toppling around that high is another low moving in, bringing wet and windy weather, but at the same time, the wind direction swings around to a southwesterly and just taps in to some pretty warm air coming from the near continent. so, the rain still heavy as it moves out of the scottish borders and into north wales, but ahead of it,

with that sunshine and that increasing warmth, we should see temperatures at 25 degrees — that's 77 fahrenheit. we're looking at mid to high teens across scotland. now, that weather front is not moving very far at all on wednesday as it continues to bump into this area of high pressure, so we could see this conveyor belt of rain just sitting across southwest england, wales and northern england for a time. and that means we'll see some increasing warmth. still a level of uncertainty where that front is going to be sitting, but potentially from hull down to the isle of wight, anywhere south and east of that could see temperatures peaking at 27 or 28 degrees — that's 82 fahrenheit. we keep some sunshine and warmth, although not quite as warm, through thursday and friday across england and wales. staying unsettled further northwest.

live from london. this is bbc news. as ukrainians recover from a previous russian attack, moscow strikes again across the territory overnight. the united nations temporarily suspends aid operations in gaza after israel issues a new evacuation order. donald trump and kamala harris spar over next month's

election debate. and, are we hours away from the oasis comeback announcement? definitely, maybe? hello and welcome to bbc news. i'm lukwesa burak. we start with breaking news from ukraine — and kyiv has been rocked by powerful explosions for a second consecutive day. ukraine's air defence forces say all of the country is under the threat of a russian ballistic weapons attack. an airforce advisory on the telegram messaging app urged citizens not to ignore the air raid alerts. a gamer was live—streaming on twitch when a missile struck a hotel next to his apartment building — have a look.