sometimes you canjust try and follow a dream you didn't know you had. keely hodgkinson gets the gold! and so, after the success for britain's olympians here, now it's the paralympians�* turn, as they hope to bring this summer of sport to the perfect ending. andy swiss, bbc news, paris. time for a look at the weather. here's tomasz. the prime minister warned the budget will be painful. does that mean austerity 2.0? and after away sis announced that reunion we have dug into the newsnight archives for some of the band's best bits. —— and after oasis announced.

good evening welcome to newsnight for insights and interviews. the prime minister told us all today things will get worse before he said they would get better — we already know that means tax rises, but we'll ask a labour treasury minister if it also means austerity is back in some form. we'll ask what advice he has for a newsnight viewer who's nearly 80 and is having his winter fuel payment taken away, and we ask about accusations of cronyism. is cronyism bad under a conservative government but ok under a labour government? government but 0k under a labour government?— government but 0k under a labour government? cronyism is something keir starmer— government? cronyism is something keir starmer has _ government? cronyism is something keir starmer has made _ government? cronyism is something keir starmer has made very - government? cronyism is something keir starmer has made very clear - government? cronyism is something keir starmer has made very clear he | keir starmer has made very clear he wants to drive out of government. he's not doing a good job so far, is he? plus — this is newsnight�*sjeremy vine back in 1996 knocking on liam gallagher's door after he dropped out of an oasis tour of the us.

is that liam 7 is that liam? i'm sound. how are ou? is that liam? i'm sound. how are you? are — is that liam? i'm sound. how are you? are you _ is that liam? i'm sound. how are you? are you coming _ is that liam? i'm sound. how are you? are you coming out? - is that liam? i'm sound. how are you? are you coming out? i'm i is that liam? i'm sound. how are i you? are you coming out? i'm not. it's raining- — you? are you coming out? i'm not. it's raining- why— you? are you coming out? i'm not. it's raining. why aren't _ you? are you coming out? i'm not. it's raining. why aren't you - you? are you coming out? i'm not. it's raining. why aren't you going i it's raining. why aren't you going to chicago? _ it's raining. why aren't you going to chicago? hello, _ it's raining. why aren't you going to chicago? hello, liam. - it's raining. why aren't you going to chicago? hello, liam. a- it's raining. why aren't you going | to chicago? hello, liam. a classic i'm sure you will agree. more of that later. let me introduce your panel this evening, oli dugmore the editor of the left leaning politics joe website and former conservative mp until he lost his seat at the election, sir simon clarke who was a levelling up secretary for 49 days under liz truss. and our political editor nick watt is here. sir keir starmer�*s speech today in the downing street garden, what was he up to? we the downing street garden, what was he u- to? ~ ., the downing street garden, what was he u- to? ~ . ., the downing street garden, what was heuto? . ., , ., he up to? we all thought george osborne was _ he up to? we all thought george osborne was a _ he up to? we all thought george osborne was a famous _ he up to? we all thought george osborne was a famous podcast l he up to? we all thought george l osborne was a famous podcast but he up to? we all thought george - osborne was a famous podcast but it turns out george osborne is very much involved and setting the agenda for our politics. —— podcaster. this was from the george osborne rule book, the speech, which was basically i have inherited a mess and it is the fault of the other

lot. the government has been making that case on the economy but today the prime minister widened that to talk about the fabric of our nation, saying those riots were caused in part by the decline and the division over the last decade whilst the conservatives were in power and all of that build—up to the moment he wanted to deliver which is to say the 30th of october is going to have to be, as he said, a painful budget. that means spending cuts and tax increases. that means the conservatives are saying, wait a minute in the campaign you said you weren't going to do that but we look at the small print, they said we won't increase taxes on working people which means they said then and they say now no increase in the big three national insurance, income tax, and vat. big three national insurance, income tax, and vat-— tax, and vat. simon, sir keir starmer— tax, and vat. simon, sir keir starmer said _ tax, and vat. simon, sir keir starmer said today _ tax, and vat. simon, sir keir starmer said today he - tax, and vat. simon, sir keir starmer said today he is - tax, and vat. simon, sir keir| starmer said today he is going tax, and vat. simon, sir keir- starmer said today he is going to have to reverse, as he put it, a decade of decline. he is right, isn't he? i decade of decline. he is right, isn't he? ., �* ~' , decade of decline. he is right, isn't he? ., �* ~ , , isn't he? i don't think he is. many ofthe isn't he? i don't think he is. many of the choices _ isn't he? i don't think he is. many of the choices that _ isn't he? i don't think he is. many of the choices that have _ isn't he? i don't think he is. many of the choices that have been - isn't he? i don't think he is. many i of the choices that have been made over the _ of the choices that have been made over the last few weeks are the reason —

over the last few weeks are the reason why we are going to have tax rises _ reason why we are going to have tax rises which — reason why we are going to have tax rises which weren't obviously trailed — rises which weren't obviously trailed in— rises which weren't obviously trailed in the election in october. it trailed in the election in october. it seems — trailed in the election in october. it seems really clear to me that a lot of— it seems really clear to me that a lot of those tax rises will hurt business. _ lot of those tax rises will hurt business, will hurt enterprise. in particular— business, will hurt enterprise. in particular if— business, will hurt enterprise. in particular if capital gains tax is increased _ particular if capital gains tax is increased which seems inevitable from _ increased which seems inevitable from the — increased which seems inevitable from the signals we are getting. the choices_ from the signals we are getting. the choices around winter fuel payments which _ choices around winter fuel payments which are _ choices around winter fuel payments which are being taken away in a move directiv— which are being taken away in a move directly calibrated to pay for a double — directly calibrated to pay for a double digit inflation rises for the unions _ double digit inflation rises for the unions it's— double digit inflation rises for the unions. it's not a good look. fundamentally it boils down to political — fundamentally it boils down to political choices rather than necessity. i think that will be a hard _ necessity. i think that will be a hard sell— necessity. i think that will be a hard sell to the public.- necessity. i think that will be a hard sell to the public. what do you think? i hard sell to the public. what do you think? i agree _ hard sell to the public. what do you think? i agree it _ hard sell to the public. what do you think? i agree it is _ hard sell to the public. what do you think? i agree it is a _ hard sell to the public. what do you think? i agree it is a political- think? i agree it is a political choice. think? i agree it is a political choice- i— think? i agree it is a political choice. i think _ think? i agree it is a political choice. i think was _ think? i agree it is a political- choice. i think was underwhelming, unimpressive, _ choice. i think was underwhelming, unimpressive, dishonest. _ choice. i think was underwhelming, unimpressive, dishonest. get- choice. i think was underwhelming, unimpressive, dishonest.— choice. i think was underwhelming, unimpressive, dishonest. get off the fence, wh unimpressive, dishonest. get off the fence. why don't _ unimpressive, dishonest. get off the fence, why don't you! _ unimpressive, dishonest. get off the fence, why don't you! if _ unimpressive, dishonest. get off the fence, why don't you! if you - unimpressive, dishonest. get off the fence, why don't you! if you are - fence, why don't you! if you are auoin to fence, why don't you! if you are going to stand _ fence, why don't you! if you are going to stand on _ fence, why don't you! if you are going to stand on a _ fence, why don't you! if you are going to stand on a platform . fence, why don't you! if you are going to stand on a platform of| going to stand on a platform of changem — going to stand on a platform of changem then— going to stand on a platform of change... then stand - going to stand on a platform of change... then stand on- going to stand on a platform of change... then stand on a - going to stand on a platform of i change... then stand on a george osborne _ change... then stand on a george osborne speech— change... then stand on a george osborne speech as _ change... then stand on a george osborne speech as nick _ change... then stand on a george osborne speech as nick says, - change... then stand on a george

osborne speech as nick says, it . osborne speech as nick says, it isn't _ osborne speech as nick says, it isn't change _ osborne speech as nick says, it isn't change it_ osborne speech as nick says, it isn't change. it is— osborne speech as nick says, it| isn't change. it is extraordinary. the economic— isn't change. it is extraordinary. the economic consensus - isn't change. it is extraordinary. - the economic consensus established under— the economic consensus established under the _ the economic consensus established under the coalition— the economic consensus established under the coalition government - the economic consensus established under the coalition government in i under the coalition government in the then— under the coalition government in the then david _ under the coalition government in the then david cameron _ under the coalition government in the then david cameron party- under the coalition government in the then david cameron party andi under the coalition government in - the then david cameron party and the way it's— the then david cameron party and the way it's carried — the then david cameron party and the way it's carried through. _ the then david cameron party and the way it's carried through. i _ the then david cameron party and the way it's carried through. i didn't- way it's carried through. i didn't expect— way it's carried through. i didn't expect a — way it's carried through. i didn't expect a labour— way it's carried through. i didn't expect a labour government. way it's carried through. i didn't expect a labour government to| way it's carried through. i didn't- expect a labour government to adhere to the _ expect a labour government to adhere to the same _ expect a labour government to adhere to the same economic _ expect a labour government to adhere to the same economic thinking - expect a labour government to adhere to the same economic thinking that - to the same economic thinking that they've _ to the same economic thinking that they've apparently— to the same economic thinking that they've apparently spent _ to the same economic thinking that they've apparently spent the - to the same economic thinking that they've apparently spent the last. to the same economic thinking thati they've apparently spent the last 14 years _ they've apparently spent the last 14 years bemoaning _ they've apparently spent the last 14 years bemoaning. if— they've apparently spent the last 14 years bemoaning.— they've apparently spent the last 14 years bemoaning. if keir starmer was here he might — years bemoaning. if keir starmer was here he might say _ years bemoaning. if keir starmer was here he might say look _ years bemoaning. if keir starmer was here he might say look at _ years bemoaning. if keir starmer was here he might say look at the - years bemoaning. if keir starmer was here he might say look at the public l here he might say look at the public sector pay rises we've just given above inflation in order to make sure we retain those staff and end the strikes. that is a change. absolutely is. the gap between the rhetoric _ absolutely is. the gap between the rhetoric and — absolutely is. the gap between the rhetoric and the _ absolutely is. the gap between the rhetoric and the actual— absolutely is. the gap between the rhetoric and the actual action - absolutely is. the gap between the rhetoric and the actual action of. rhetoric and the actual action of the labour— rhetoric and the actual action of the labour government- rhetoric and the actual action of the labour government i- rhetoric and the actual action of the labour government i find i rhetoric and the actual action of. the labour government i find quite interesting — the labour government i find quite interesting. when— the labour government i find quite interesting. when those _ the labour government i find quite interesting. when those pay- the labour government i find quite interesting. when those pay rises. interesting. when those pay rises came _ interesting. when those pay rises came into — interesting. when those pay rises came into force _ interesting. when those pay rises came into force it _ interesting. when those pay rises came into force it was _ interesting. when those pay rises came into force it was the - interesting. when those pay rises came into force it was the same i interesting. when those pay rises . came into force it was the same day reeves _ came into force it was the same day reeves gave — came into force it was the same day reeves gave that _ came into force it was the same day reeves gave that speech _ came into force it was the same day reeves gave that speech and - came into force it was the same day reeves gave that speech and what i came into force it was the same day i reeves gave that speech and what was the language? — reeves gave that speech and what was the language? tough— reeves gave that speech and what was the language? tough decisions, - the language? tough decisions, household — the language? tough decisions, household budget, _ the language? tough decisions, household budget, she - the language? tough decisions, household budget, she barely. household budget, she barely mentioned _ household budget, she barely mentioned the _ household budget, she barely mentioned the public- household budget, she barely mentioned the public sector l household budget, she barely. mentioned the public sector pay rises _ mentioned the public sector pay rises so — mentioned the public sector pay rises so i — mentioned the public sector pay rises so i find _ mentioned the public sector pay rises so i find it— mentioned the public sector pay rises so i find it peculiar- mentioned the public sector pay rises so i find it peculiar traileri rises so i find it peculiar trailer nraggot— rises so i find it peculiar trailer maggot this _ rises so i find it peculiar trailer maggot this is _ rises so i find it peculiar trailer maggot this is a _ rises so i find it peculiar trailer maggot this is a relatively- maggot this is a relatively progressive _ maggot this is a relatively progressive thing - maggot this is a relatively progressive thing and - maggot this is a relatively progressive thing and i. maggot this is a relatively. progressive thing and i reject maggot this is a relatively- progressive thing and i reject the politics— progressive thing and i reject the politics which _ progressive thing and i reject the politics which says _ progressive thing and i reject the politics which says you _ progressive thing and i reject the politics which says you need - progressive thing and i reject the politics which says you need to l politics which says you need to choose — politics which says you need to choose between _ politics which says you need to choose between the _ politics which says you need to| choose between the pensioners politics which says you need to - choose between the pensioners and the workers — choose between the pensioners and the workers and _ choose between the pensioners and the workers and the _ choose between the pensioners and the workers and the public - choose between the pensioners and

the workers and the public sector. the workers and the public sector pay rises — the workers and the public sector pay rises -- _ the workers and the public sector pay rises. -- i_ the workers and the public sector pay rises. —— i find _ the workers and the public sector pay rises. —— i find it _ the workers and the public sector pay rises. —— i find it peculiar... i their action is really interesting. their action is really interesting. the difference _ their action is really interesting. the difference between - their action is really interesting. the difference between what - their action is really interesting. the difference between what they their action is really interesting. - the difference between what they are saving _ the difference between what they are saving when _ the difference between what they are saving when they _ the difference between what they are saying when they are _ the difference between what they are saying when they are speaking - saying when they are speaking publictv — saying when they are speaking publictv i_ saying when they are speaking publicly. i don't _ saying when they are speaking publicly. i don't if— saying when they are speaking publicly. idon't if it— saying when they are speaking publicly. idon't if it is- saying when they are speaking publicly. i don't if it is media i publicly. i don't if it is media management. _ publicly. idon't if it is media management, a— publicly. i don't if it is media management, a rhetorical. publicly. i don't if it is media - management, a rhetorical game, publicly. i don't if it is media _ management, a rhetorical game, quite interesting _ management, a rhetorical game, quite interestinu. ,, ., interesting. simon, you said you did not acce -t interesting. simon, you said you did not accept the _ interesting. simon, you said you did not accept the stuff _ interesting. simon, you said you did not accept the stuff sir _ interesting. simon, you said you did not accept the stuff sir keir - not accept the stuff sir keir starmer was saying today. in terms of reversing a decade of decline people looked around in the election campaign and saw that quite basic stuff wasn't working after 14 years of conservative government. you cannot get a gp appointment. kids cannot get a gp appointment. kids cannot see an nhs dentist. prisons are full because you didn't build the prisons you said you would. victims of crime wait years for their court cases to come to trial. that is pretty fundamental stuff when it comes to the fabric of society, isn't it? i when it comes to the fabric of society, isn't it?— when it comes to the fabric of society, isn't it? i do not downplay the verdict — society, isn't it? i do not downplay the verdict that _ society, isn't it? i do not downplay the verdict that the _ society, isn't it? i do not downplay the verdict that the electorate - society, isn't it? i do not downplay| the verdict that the electorate gave last month. that needs to be respected. what i would say is that ithink— respected. what i would say is that i think it _ respected. what i would say is that i think it is — respected. what i would say is that i think it is unfair to characterise

those _ i think it is unfair to characterise those 14— i think it is unfair to characterise those 14 years as missed opportunity. actually we navigated genuinely unprecedented challenges and i think, you know, politicians use that — and i think, you know, politicians use that word unprecedented a lot but pandemic, european war, in succession, _ but pandemic, european war, in succession, they were almost certainly— succession, they were almost certainly come under whatever government, whatever colour in power. — government, whatever colour in power, going to cause hughes —— cause _ power, going to cause hughes —— cause huge — power, going to cause hughes —— cause huge disruption. we had to repair— cause huge disruption. we had to repair the — cause huge disruption. we had to repair the public finances. we did do that— repair the public finances. we did do that substantially. they gave us the fiscal— do that substantially. they gave us the fiscal firepower we had during the fiscal firepower we had during the pandemic. in recent weeks we've had labour— the pandemic. in recent weeks we've had labour spending 7 billion on gb energv. _ had labour spending 7 billion on gb energv. 8— had labour spending 7 billion on gb energy, 8 billion on this new national— energy, 8 billion on this new national wealth fund... why energy, 8 billion on this new national wealth fund... why do you sa it like national wealth fund... why do you say it like that? _ national wealth fund... why do you say it like that? because _ national wealth fund... why do you say it like that? because i - national wealth fund... why do you say it like that? because i will- say it like that? because i will believe it _ say it like that? because i will believe it when _ say it like that? because i will believe it when i _ say it like that? because i will believe it when i see - say it like that? because i will believe it when i see it - say it like that? because i will believe it when i see it in - say it like that? because i will. believe it when i see it in trees. thev've — believe it when i see it in trees. they've chosen to spend a lot of money _ they've chosen to spend a lot of money and _ they've chosen to spend a lot of money and now we are being told they are in— money and now we are being told they are in a _ money and now we are being told they are in a black— money and now we are being told they are in a black hole...— are in a black hole... george osborne _ are in a black hole... george osborne thought _ are in a black hole... george osborne thought austerity i are in a black hole... george i osborne thought austerity was are in a black hole... george - osborne thought austerity was right because he was the father of it and borisjohnson thought it because he was the father of it and boris johnson thought it was because he was the father of it and borisjohnson thought it was wrong. then we had a lot about levelling

up, that was yourjob in liz truss's government, but he was unable to deliver the anti—austerity investments. 50 deliver the anti-austerity investments.— deliver the anti-austerity investments. . ., . ,, ., investments. so much of what we know could have happened _ investments. so much of what we know could have happened was _ investments. so much of what we know could have happened was stalled - investments. so much of what we know could have happened was stalled by - could have happened was stalled by the 400 _ could have happened was stalled by the 400 billion spent on the pandemic. that's the tantalising what _ pandemic. that's the tantalising what if— pandemic. that's the tantalising what it of— pandemic. that's the tantalising what if of the last 14 years. the biggest — what if of the last 14 years. the biggest single thing as what would have happened if boris had been given— have happened if boris had been given longer to deliver his form of economics — given longer to deliver his form of economics which, in truth, would have _ economics which, in truth, would have been— economics which, in truth, would have been heseltine —esque. listening _ have been heseltine —esque. listening to talk there, simon, i think— listening to talk there, simon, i think there _ listening to talk there, simon, i think there is _ listening to talk there, simon, i think there is an _ listening to talk there, simon, i think there is an awful _ listening to talk there, simon, i think there is an awful lot - listening to talk there, simon, i think there is an awful lot of- think there is an awful lot of social— think there is an awful lot of social good _ think there is an awful lot of social good which— think there is an awful lot of social good which can - think there is an awful lot of social good which can be - think there is an awful lot of- social good which can be achieved from _ social good which can be achieved from investment— social good which can be achieved from investment in— social good which can be achieved from investment in this _ social good which can be achieved from investment in this country. i from investment in this country. whether— from investment in this country. whether that's _ from investment in this country. whether that's by— from investment in this country. whether that's by increased - from investment in this country. . whether that's by increased taxes, economic— whether that's by increased taxes, economic increased _ whether that's by increased taxes, economic increased borrowing. - whether that's by increased taxes, economic increased borrowing. i. whether that's by increased taxes, . economic increased borrowing. i look at the _ economic increased borrowing. i look at the last— economic increased borrowing. i look at the last 14 — economic increased borrowing. i look at the last 14 years _ economic increased borrowing. i look at the last 14 years pre—pandemic, i at the last 14 years pre—pandemic, pre-ukraine — at the last 14 years pre—pandemic, pre—ukraine war. _ at the last 14 years pre—pandemic, pre—ukraine war. i— at the last 14 years pre—pandemic, pre—ukraine war. i look— at the last 14 years pre—pandemic, pre—ukraine war. i look at - at the last 14 years pre—pandemic, pre—ukraine war. i look at the - pre—ukraine war. i look at the interest— pre—ukraine war. i look at the interest rates— pre—ukraine war. i look at the interest rates which _ pre—ukraine war. i look at the interest rates which hit - pre—ukraine war. i look at the interest rates which hit loadsl interest rates which hit loads without — interest rates which hit loads without historic— interest rates which hit loads without historic precedent. . interest rates which hit loads . without historic precedent. and interest rates which hit loads - without historic precedent. and i thought. — without historic precedent. and i thought. oh. _ without historic precedent. and i thought. oh. my— without historic precedent. and i thought, oh, my god, _ without historic precedent. and i thought, oh, my god, what- without historic precedent. and i thought, oh, my god, what an . thought, oh, my god, what an opportunity— thought, oh, my god, what an opportunity to— thought, oh, my god, what an opportunity to borrow- thought, oh, my god, what an opportunity to borrow and - thought, oh, my god, what an i opportunity to borrow and invest. thought, oh, my god, what an - opportunity to borrow and invest. to hear you _ opportunity to borrow and invest. to hear you talk — opportunity to borrow and invest. to hear you talk about _ opportunity to borrow and invest. to hear you talk about it _ opportunity to borrow and invest. to hear you talk about it in _ opportunity to borrow and invest. to hear you talk about it in these - hear you talk about it in these terms. — hear you talk about it in these terms, genuinely, _ hear you talk about it in these terms, genuinely, it- hear you talk about it in these| terms, genuinely, it frustrates hear you talk about it in these - terms, genuinely, it frustrates me.

there _ terms, genuinely, it frustrates me. there could — terms, genuinely, it frustrates me. there could have _ terms, genuinely, it frustrates me. there could have been— terms, genuinely, it frustrates me. there could have been an - terms, genuinely, it frustrates me. . there could have been an opportunity there to _ there could have been an opportunity there to sort — there could have been an opportunity there to sort of — there could have been an opportunity there to sort of turned _ there could have been an opportunity there to sort of turned the _ there could have been an opportunity there to sort of turned the other- there to sort of turned the other way and — there to sort of turned the other way and say, _ there to sort of turned the other way and say. we _ there to sort of turned the other way and say, we are _ there to sort of turned the other way and say, we are going - there to sort of turned the other way and say, we are going to. there to sort of turned the other- way and say, we are going to reduce public— way and say, we are going to reduce public services — way and say, we are going to reduce public services and _ way and say, we are going to reduce public services and public _ way and say, we are going to reduce public services and public spending,| public services and public spending, we could _ public services and public spending, we could have — public services and public spending, we could have ploughed _ public services and public spending, we could have ploughed money- public services and public spending, we could have ploughed money intoj we could have ploughed money into them _ we could have ploughed money into them and _ we could have ploughed money into them and then— we could have ploughed money into them and then i— we could have ploughed money into them and then i think, _ we could have ploughed money into them and then i think, sorry, - we could have ploughed money into them and then i think, sorry, wheni them and then i think, sorry, when we get _ them and then i think, sorry, when we get to— them and then i think, sorry, when we get to a — them and then i think, sorry, when we get to a situation _ them and then i think, sorry, when we get to a situation like _ them and then i think, sorry, when we get to a situation like a - we get to a situation like a pandemic, _ we get to a situation like a pandemic, having - we get to a situation like a pandemic, having a - we get to a situation like a| pandemic, having a degree we get to a situation like a i pandemic, having a degree of preparedness— pandemic, having a degree of preparedness might - pandemic, having a degree of preparedness might have - pandemic, having a degree of| preparedness might have been pandemic, having a degree of- preparedness might have been useful for it _ preparedness might have been useful for it. . ._ , preparedness might have been useful for it. . , , for it. there will always be debate about whether _ for it. there will always be debate about whether it _ for it. there will always be debate about whether it was _ for it. there will always be debate about whether it was the - for it. there will always be debate about whether it was the right - for it. there will always be debate i about whether it was the right thing to do— about whether it was the right thing to do to _ about whether it was the right thing to do to restrict public spending in the way— to do to restrict public spending in the way that george and philip hammond did.— the way that george and philip hammond did. ., . , . the way that george and philip hammond did. ., ., . i] hammond did. how was it a debate? i think possibly — hammond did. how was it a debate? i think possibly capital _ hammond did. how was it a debate? i think possibly capital spending - hammond did. how was it a debate? i think possibly capital spending was . think possibly capital spending was brought— think possibly capital spending was brought to far down. we probably didn't— brought to far down. we probably didn't do— brought to far down. we probably didn't do enough on the revenue side and the _ didn't do enough on the revenue side and the day— didn't do enough on the revenue side and the day to day spending but we maybe _ and the day to day spending but we maybe could have done more to protect — maybe could have done more to protect the capital budgets. i think that's— protect the capital budgets. i think that's a _ protect the capital budgets. i think that's a really difficult balance 'ust that's a really difficult balance just right. lest we forget, the nhs budget— just right. lest we forget, the nhs budget this year is, what, £190 bittion? — budget this year is, what, £190 billion? forall, yes, we reduced spending — billion? forall, yes, we reduced spending, in absolute terms government spending is still £1 trittion — government spending is still £1 trillion per year. we government spending is still £1 trillion per year.— government spending is still £1 trillion per year. we will be back with ou trillion per year. we will be back

with you shortly. _ before we came on air i spoke to treasury ministerjames murray and asked aboutt cronyism, winter fuel payments and first if the prime minster�*s warning about a 'painful�* budget at the end of october meant austerity was on its way back. what's coming down the track are a series of difficult choices and tough decisions. austerity. well, we know there are going to be difficult choices around spending, around welfare, around taxation. there's no return to the austerity that we've seen of years gone by. but we are clear that there are going to be some difficult choices. so it's austerity light? what's very different, though, for us is the focus on making sure that any changes we make to the tax system are fair, and to make sure we get the economy growing, because, crucially, getting the economy growing is the way to have sustainable funding for public services and to make people better off. do you think anybody who voted for you voted for a return to austerity 2.0? well, look. there's no return to the austerity that we've seen in years gone by. you know, this is about making... years gone by? there's your wiggle room. well, no, this is about making sure that the public finances

are on a firm footing because we've inherited a situation that we knew was going to be really difficult before the election. it's even worse than we thought it was going to be, because we've uncovered this £22 billion in—year black hole. keir starmer said to the country today his government is one that works with people, not does things to them. those words do not match what you've just done to 10 million pensioners, throwing many of them under a bus by taking away their winter fuel payments. well, the difficult decision that we took when it comes to the winter fuel payment is to change the system so that it's now targeted at people who are in receipt of pension credit to make sure the most vulnerable pensioners, those who need the support the most for the winter ahead, will still be entitled to it. i think we would all acknowledge that the winter fuel payment system we've inherited, where it goes to everyone, is not a well designed system. and the prime minister said as much this morning, what we need to do is make sure that we are spending public money wisely in a very difficult situation we've inherited, and that does mean difficult choices. i'm not shying away from the fact

that the decision we've taken around winter fuel payments was a difficult choice. so you're asking pensioners to go cold this winter for the long term good of the country? essentially. some of these are the war generation. some of these suffered terribly during the pandemic, assuming they survived and you're now throwing them under a bus. well, we've made sure that those pensioners who are in the greatest need, those who are eligible for pension credit, will still get the winter fuel payment. you haven't made sure. there are 880,000 pensioners eligible for pension credit who have not applied, and nor have they had done that for ten years. and you're bringing this in in four months. you haven't made sure. well, as i said, everyone who is eligible for pension credit will still be able to get the winter fuel payment. what we are focusing... only if they apply. what we are focusing on now is making sure that everyone who is eligible for pension credit takes up that benefit and they will get the winter fuel payment as well. but i think everyone would agree

that if you have a fiscal situation like the one we've inherited and you have a payment like the winter fuel payment that was going to everyone, it can be better targeted at those who need it most and given the state of the public finances. can i read you this email from one of our viewers? it's from a woman who says she's very concerned and extremely distressed on behalf of her dad, about your government's decision to cut the winter fuel payments to pensioners, she says my father is almost 80. he receives the state pension butjust misses out on the requirement for pension credit. my father's worked for the nhs diligently for years, paid his taxes and even selflessly did some part time work for the nhs during the covid pandemic. the winter fuel payments were a lifeline for him these past years, when the cost of living went up and they helped him get by during the winter. where is the justice or humanity in taking away this lifeline for my father? well, that's obviously a very difficult situation, and i can understand that the daughter of the gentleman in question wants to raise her concerns. and, you know, it's important that we hear them.

but i think there's no getting away from the fact that we are going to have to take difficult decisions, not... not as difficult as a pensioner might have to make this winter when they choose between heating and eating. we're making sure we protect the triple lock for pensioners, that's not going to help... that's not going to help this woman's dad. if we have a situation where we don't have secure public finances, if we haven't got the public finances back on a betterfooting, that will impact pensioners along with everyone else. so what would be your advice be to this 80—year—old who just misses out on the eligibility for pension credit when it comes to paying his energy bills this winter? well, i'm not going to give advice for a specific person. why not? because i don't want to get into specifics of one person.

i'm sure you don't. but this is exactly the effect your government's policy is having on specific individuals. what i would say to them, though, what i would say to the gentleman and his daughter, is that i realise that the decision we've taken is a difficult one. i realise that it's a tough choice that we've had to take. i realise that it will have an impact on people. being up front is not going to help that gentleman pay his energy bill. is cronyism bad under a conservative government? but ok under a labour government? cronyism is something which keir starmer has made very clear he wants to drive out of government. you know, for him he's not doing a good job so far, is he? well, for him, process and procedure is absolutely critical. and i think as he said, he said that this morning at his press conference, he made very clear how important process and procedure is to him. and i think anyone who knows him,

anyone who's listened to him and what he's had to say over the last few years knows how important that is to him. and that's why i thought you said you were going to be better than than the conservatives. things were going to be different. you said. yes. and keir starmer has started driving that change by making sure that we are a government of service, that we're focussed on the needs of the british people, rather than internal party politics or other distractions. you're giving you're giving civil service jobs, you have been giving civil service jobs to labour supporters and labour donors. well, look, there are clear processes and procedures in place which govern those appointments and they need to be followed. but no one can be in any doubt how important this is to the prime minister. it's absolutely critical for him to make sure that we restore trust in politics and that we have processes in place that are followed. in opposition, keir starmer accused the tory party of giving their supporters jobs for their mates. he promised to restore standards in public life with a total crackdown on cronyism. you've given jobs to labour supporters or donors in the civil service, which is supposed to be impartial. you've given a security pass to the labour peer, who paid for keir starmer�*s spectacles and chinos during the election campaign. that is the definition

of cronyism, isn't it? well, look, firstly, i'm not going to comment on individual cases. why not? because i'm not you know. we've all read about them. it's not appropriate for me to comment on the process that has gone through in individual cases. how does it smell? does it pass the sniff test? all i can say more generally about this is that people who are long term involved in a political party and support a political party that should not prohibit them from then helping the party in government. that should not exclude them from being able to do that. it's hard to see you making that argument if it was a tory supporter or a donor being given a job in the heart of government. if you have someone without, again, without commenting on the specifics, you mentioned lord ali, who i know has been a long term contributor to the labour party and to our work in opposition and to try and get us into government. so i know that someone like him has been long term, part of the project to try to get a labour government. so i don't want to, but without getting into the specific details. so what if he's been a long term supporter of the labour project?

that shouldn't exclude someone from helping us in government. how does it look? what's the perception? this guy paid for keir starmer�*s literally paid for his clothes during the election campaign, and then he gets a security pass and holds a reception in downing street garden. but that's why it's important to have the procedures and processes in place that need to be followed. and, you know, no one can doubt having listened to keir starmer over many years and what he's said today, how important it is for him to make sure we have those processes and procedures in place in government. james murray, thank you very much for talking to newsnight. thank you. we had so many e—mails from viewers about the winter fuel payment and this is not going to give away. i said earlier about the dishonesty of the keir— said earlier about the dishonesty of the keir starmer labour party and this cut _ the keir starmer labour party and this cut of— the keir starmer labour party and this cut of winter fuel payment, we heard _ this cut of winter fuel payment, we heard nothing about that during the campaign — heard nothing about that during the campaign. and would people be in their seat—

campaign. and would people be in their seat if they had? we already have pretty harsh pension payments compared _ have pretty harsh pension payments compared to european neighbours and cutting _ compared to european neighbours and cutting that further and turning it into means tested something i disagree — into means tested something i disagree strongly. if i were to verbatise _ disagree strongly. if i were to verbalise my politics there is a quote — verbalise my politics there is a quote that i like from brendan behan, — quote that i like from brendan behan, anything that keeps people warm _ behan, anything that keeps people warm in— behan, anything that keeps people warm in winterand keeps behan, anything that keeps people warm in winter and keeps the behan, anything that keeps people warm in winterand keeps the beer cooler— warm in winterand keeps the beer cooler in— warm in winterand keeps the beer cooler in summer. the iss has been going _ cooler in summer. the iss has been going on— cooler in summer. the iss has been going on about this for months, the joseph— going on about this for months, the joseph rowntree foundation and the conservative party talked about the need to _ conservative party talked about the need to raise taxes. i do not have a probtem _ need to raise taxes. i do not have a problem with that but i have a probtem — problem with that but i have a problem with that but i have a problem with the now prime minister lyin- problem with the now prime minister lying about during the general election— lying about during the general election campaign. with lying about during the general election campaign. with winter fuel is not difficult _ election campaign. with winter fuel is not difficult to _ election campaign. with winter fuel is not difficult to find _ election campaign. with winter fuel is not difficult to find critics - election campaign. with winter fuel is not difficult to find critics in - is not difficult to find critics in the labour party who do not like this and feel that they were bounced into it by that statement at the end

ofjuly from rachel reeves. i spoke to one kind of loyal stimpy this evening and they said this is because the black hole and the staff stuff has to be done but this person was saying and picking up unease amongst the electorate and that is making me uneasy. you amongst the electorate and that is making me uneasy.— amongst the electorate and that is making me uneasy. you 'ust said, you 'ust making me uneasy. you 'ust said, you just accused — making me uneasy. you 'ust said, you just accused keirh making me uneasy. youjust said, you just accused keir starmer _ making me uneasy. youjust said, you just accused keir starmer of _ making me uneasy. youjust said, you just accused keir starmer of lying. - just accused keir starmer of lying. lying implies intent, is that what you're saying?— lying implies intent, is that what you're saying? absolutely, i think keir starmer— you're saying? absolutely, i think keir starmer is _ you're saying? absolutely, i think keir starmer is more _ you're saying? absolutely, i think keir starmer is more calculated . you're saying? absolutely, i thinkj keir starmer is more calculated in the way— keir starmer is more calculated in the way that he lies a more cynical than for— the way that he lies a more cynical than for example boris johnson who lied than for example boris johnson who tied by— than for example boris johnson who lied by distraction. keir starmer is more _ lied by distraction. keir starmer is more calculated. look at the election— more calculated. look at the election campaign, coming across as a socialist— election campaign, coming across as a socialist i_ election campaign, coming across as a socialist i say because he understands and tells them what they want to— understands and tells them what they want to hear and then he gets into the labour— want to hear and then he gets into the labour leadership office and abandons the pledges that do not

technically cost him financially. so he can _ technically cost him financially. so he can say— technically cost him financially. so he can say that we have the war in ukraine _ he can say that we have the war in ukraine and — he can say that we have the war in ukraine and the pandemic. but how does that— ukraine and the pandemic. but how does that affect a pledge like defending freedom of movement? i want defending freedom of movement? want to defending freedom of movement? i want to come back to freedom of movement. want to come back to freedom of movement-— want to come back to freedom of movement. . . ,, . ., movement. what keir starmer would sa that as movement. what keir starmer would say that as he _ movement. what keir starmer would say that as he had _ movement. what keir starmer would say that as he had those _ movement. what keir starmer would say that as he had those leadership i say that as he had those leadership pledges in early 2020 and there was a pandemic which changed everything and was difficult to stand by them. if you are saying, it is myjob to say what he would say if he were here, in terms of relying on tax now is that in the election he said i will not put taxes up on working people and he did define that as we said by not increasing income tax or national insurance are not increasing vat. i had a labour mp on last night and i said that was not in the spirit but it certainly was in the spirit but it certainly was in the spirit but it certainly was in the small print. i in the spirit but it certainly was in the small print.— in the spirit but it certainly was in the small print. i think the most sur-arisin in the small print. i think the most surprising thing — in the small print. i think the most surprising thing is _ in the small print. i think the most surprising thing is that _ in the small print. i think the most surprising thing is that he's - in the small print. i think the mostj surprising thing is that he's chosen to have _ surprising thing is that he's chosen to have this— surprising thing is that he's chosen to have this fight on winter fuel because — to have this fight on winter fuel because just politically it is real

money— because just politically it is real money but not huge money, the winter fuel payments in terms of the net takings _ fuel payments in terms of the net takings for— fuel payments in terms of the net takings for the spending of the exchequer. i think 1.5 billion. he is exchequer. ! think 1.5 billion. he is given— exchequer. i think 1.5 billion. he is given 10 — exchequer. i think 1.5 billion. he is given 10 billion to the unions in pay rises — is given 10 billion to the unions in pay rises in — is given 10 billion to the unions in pay rises in the past seven weeks. he talked — pay rises in the past seven weeks. he talked about those with the broadest shoulders bearing the burden— broadest shoulders bearing the burden and it feels on early evidence _ burden and it feels on early evidence as if he thinks that pensioners have the broadest shoulders. ijust feel a lot of people — shoulders. ijust feel a lot of people who actually do need that money— people who actually do need that money and i fully accept that the wealthy— money and i fully accept that the wealthy pensioners do not, but there are a lot _ wealthy pensioners do not, but there are a lot of— wealthy pensioners do not, but there are a lot of people who do. it wealthy pensioners do not, but there are a lot of people who do.— are a lot of people who do. it does sound like — are a lot of people who do. it does sound like we _ are a lot of people who do. it does sound like we do _ are a lot of people who do. it does sound like we do not _ are a lot of people who do. it does sound like we do not know - are a lot of people who do. it does sound like we do not know but - are a lot of people who do. it does sound like we do not know but the j sound like we do not know but the sort of things they would do with people with broader shoulders is things like equalising capital gains tax with income tax and potentially pensions and lowering the kind of tax—free amount you can take out. that is taxing wealth rather than... and that will be extremely

contentious. capital gains tax in particular— contentious. capital gains tax in particular is striking at the heart of business and we are already seeing — of business and we are already seeing people getting out of shares and buy— seeing people getting out of shares and buy to let properties in anticipation of these changes. there could _ anticipation of these changes. there could be _ anticipation of these changes. there could be a _ anticipation of these changes. there could be a lot of damage done. and ironically— could be a lot of damage done. and ironically that could reduce the eventual— ironically that could reduce the eventual receipts. let's take a quick look at a few of the stories on the front pages. the guardian newspaper time for the uk to turn a corner and brexit says keir starmer. keir starmer is in berlin trying to reset relations and obviously the calico brothers of the front as well. the times, german deal to turn the corner on brexit. and the telegraph tax a for middle england. the daily mail, finally keir starmer comes clean that he will soak the middle class. and the ft, a warning that the budget is going to be painful. let me ask you

as a brexiteer, the resetting of relations, what we think that means practical terms? relations, what we think that means practicalterms? i relations, what we think that means practical terms?— practical terms? i think it means caettin practical terms? i think it means getting britain — practical terms? i think it means getting britain in _ practical terms? i think it means getting britain in a _ practical terms? i think it means getting britain in a position - practical terms? i think it means| getting britain in a position which is the worst of all girls in my view, being a kind of shadow member of the eu. i worried that is where we will be left, taking rules by not controlling anything. for a politician that was interested in growth how does that sound? i do not acce -t that growth how does that sound? i do not accept that brexit _ growth how does that sound? i do not accept that brexit had _ growth how does that sound? i do not accept that brexit had that _ growth how does that sound? i do not accept that brexit had that effect - accept that brexit had that effect and that — accept that brexit had that effect and that is not a settled fact certainly _ and that is not a settled fact certainly. the lbr, shall we say have _ certainly. the lbr, shall we say have mixed track record on these questions — have mixed track record on these questions. but what i would say it's a fundamental issue is national sovereignty and the british people voted _ sovereignty and the british people voted to— sovereignty and the british people voted to leave the eu and leave it properly — voted to leave the eu and leave it properly. it would be ridiculous to end up— properly. it would be ridiculous to end up in— properly. it would be ridiculous to end up in a — properly. it would be ridiculous to end up in a world where we are not really— end up in a world where we are not really in _ end up in a world where we are not really in the — end up in a world where we are not really in the eu or not really out of it _ really in the eu or not really out of it i_

really in the eu or not really out of it. i would argue that with the french— of it. i would argue that with the french revolution, just too soon to say. french revolution, just too soon to say what — french revolution, just too soon to say. what has happened in the intervening years has prevented us from _ intervening years has prevented us from doing — intervening years has prevented us from doing a lot. you intervening years has prevented us from doing a lot.— from doing a lot. you could have taken back— from doing a lot. you could have taken back control _ from doing a lot. you could have taken back control when - from doing a lot. you could have taken back control when it - from doing a lot. you could have taken back control when it came | from doing a lot. you could have i taken back control when it came to migration. oli dugmore, what do you think that resetting relations means through the prism of brexit? i think that resetting relations means through the prism of brexit?- through the prism of brexit? i think close ties on _ through the prism of brexit? i think close ties on diplomacy _ through the prism of brexit? i think close ties on diplomacy and - close ties on diplomacy and security, i do not think we will see anything like a customs union or a return to the single market. what is interestin: return to the single market. what is interesting as _ return to the single market. what is interesting as those _ return to the single market. what is interesting as those front _ return to the single market. what is interesting as those front pages - return to the single market. what is interesting as those front pages are | interesting as those front pages are picking _ interesting as those front pages are picking up— interesting as those front pages are picking up remarks released from downing — picking up remarks released from downing street about what the prime minister— downing street about what the prime minister will say when he meets the german— minister will say when he meets the german chancellor tomorrow in berlin — german chancellor tomorrow in berlin we _ german chancellor tomorrow in berlin. we must turn a corner on brexit— berlin. we must turn a corner on brexit and — berlin. we must turn a corner on brexit and fix our broken relationship and talk about a treaty that will— relationship and talk about a treaty that will be negotiated in the past, in the _ that will be negotiated in the past, in the coming six months with germany— in the coming six months with germany covering business, trade, defence _ germany covering business, trade, defence and security corporation. the times— defence and security corporation. the times newspaper saying that britain _ the times newspaper saying that britain wants preferential access to the german economy. if michel

barnier— the german economy. if michel barnier were here he would say you do not _ barnier were here he would say you do not negotiate bilaterally a trade treaty— do not negotiate bilaterally a trade treaty with an individual state but with european commission. but it looks— with european commission. but it looks like — with european commission. but it looks like we're trying to put defence _ looks like we're trying to put defence and security cooperation on the table _ defence and security cooperation on the table and i think what we're saying — the table and i think what we're saying is— the table and i think what we're saying is we along with france are part the _ saying is we along with france are part the largest defence power in the continent of europe and what would _ the continent of europe and what would you — the continent of europe and what would you like to do, we can offer defence _ would you like to do, we can offer defence and how about some access on trade? _ defence and how about some access on trade? ., .. ., defence and how about some access on trade? ., ., . . trade? you cannot argue with that. i would not argue _ trade? you cannot argue with that. i would not argue with _ trade? you cannot argue with that. i would not argue with that _ trade? you cannot argue with that. i would not argue with that if- trade? you cannot argue with that. i would not argue with that if that - trade? you cannot argue with that. i would not argue with that if that is i would not argue with that if that is what the prime minister means by reset then i think that would be ideal because what we want is to turn the corner on what happened during what more fractious negotiations. what it must not mean is that we start to walk back from what we have achieved. because... when you say what we've achieved? what we've achieved is meaningful independence. but what we've achieved is meaningful independence-— what we've achieved is meaningful independence. but if you're going to have a close — independence. but if you're going to have a close trading _ independence. but if you're going to have a close trading relationship - have a close trading relationship with the — have a close trading relationship with the largest economy in the

european — with the largest economy in the european union? find with the largest economy in the european union?— european union? and on those questions _ european union? and on those questions we _ european union? and on those questions we will _ european union? and on those questions we will have - european union? and on those questions we will have to - european union? and on those questions we will have to be i european union? and on those i questions we will have to be very alert because some sectors would pose no risk with alignment but in others it could curb our potential. on things like ai others it could curb our potential. on things like aland gm, all the things uk could couldn i think should be a first mover we need to make sure that were not putting ourselves in lockstep and ironically of course therefore de facto very close to the single market. i think ou're close to the single market. i think you're right. _ close to the single market. i think you're right. why _ close to the single market. i think you're right. why go _ close to the single market. i think you're right, why go through - close to the single market. i think you're right, why go through the i you're right, why go through the whole _ you're right, why go through the whole thing if you're just going to align— whole thing if you're just going to align yourself. before we go, the news that oasis are reforming for a tour next year, after over a decade of throwing insults at each other, got us searching through the newsnight archives. yep, we have got old interviews with liam and noel gallagher. you're welcome. as liam gallagher stormed out of an oasis on the eve

of the phenomenally successful group's american tour newsnight asks, what's the story? hello. is mr gallagher there, please? who is it? it's... is that liam ? yeah. hello, liam, it'sjeremy vine from newsnight. how are you doing? i'm bleep sound. how are you? not bad. are you coming out? am i bleep, it's raining, mate. why aren't you going to chicago? hello, liam? liam's mother agrees she's longed for a more stable existence for him. oh, yes, yes, itold liam many times to go out and get himself a properjob. do you still see yourself as being involved in rock and roll when you're much older? unfortunately i probably will be. unfortunately i will probably still be going as long as mickjagger. it's a very powerful, highly addictive drug, unfortunately. # maybe i don't really want to know #. it was a big deal. the landslide and all of that. and everybody got carried away. we thought he was going

to bejohn f kennedy, do you know what i mean? and for a year or two, he was. unfortunately for this labour government they are going to be saddled with the iraq war and nobody can get round that. do you regret the famous shot of you with tony blair at number ten at that party? i regret the glass of champagne. should have been, what, pale ale, or something? that looks a bit cheesy, i've got to say. what did mr blair say to you? do you recall that? he said thank you very much, you are brilliant. you are what great britain is all about. and i said, i know, thank you very much, where's the bar? he is on record as saying that the idea of getting oasis back together would make him vomit. the labour party have managed to prove themselves to be just as sleazy and horrible as we all know the conservatives are. there's nothing left to vote for any more.

what about the riots this summer? when i was growing up we were the working class and we were the lowest. there is a level underneath that, the i can't be bothered working class, do you know what i mean? and they've grown into a culture of benefits and all that but there's many reasons for those riots. our editor would like to know who you think was better, you lot or oasis? well that's not a very grown—up question from newsnight, is it? i'll pass that on. i think oasis were better. do you? yes. you don't. i do. i do, i think they were... they were better at communicating who they were. all from the archives and a message from jeremy vine, i sounded so posh! what do people think about this reunion? i what do people think about this reunion? , ., , , a ,

reunion? i will probably get tickets for cardiff, i _ reunion? i will probably get tickets for cardiff, i do _ reunion? i will probably get tickets for cardiff, i do not _ reunion? i will probably get tickets for cardiff, i do not know— reunion? i will probably get tickets for cardiff, i do not know if- reunion? i will probably get tickets for cardiff, i do not know if they i for cardiff, i do not know if they will make