time for a look at the weather — here's chris fawkes. looking at some really big contrasts across the uk today. across northern and western areas lots of cloud with some bursts of rain and you can see the rather cloudy and damp weather on the combined satellite and radar picture with various weather fronts attacking the uk. more persistent rain in northern scotland, just 1a degrees in harris, contrast that with the heat in east anglia and across south—east england, 30 celsius in cambridge earlier and confirmation that the weather was nice for some than others. 0vernight a week old frantically is introducing fresher air. this programme continues on bbc one.

also, a report today suggests the current system of uk press self—regulation isn't working for people who aren't celebrities and royalty. we'll talk to the mums of caroline flack and anisha vidal—garner, who say their privacy has been invaded by newspapers. welcome to newsnight with your weeknightly interviews and insight. here tonight, labour member of the house of lords lord wood, a former foreign policy adviser to prime minister gordon brown, and chief adviser to former labour leader ed miliband. he is plugged into the current pm's views on what a "closer relationship" with the eu actually means.

luke tryll is uk director of the pollsters more in common. he'll talk to us about the latest public attitudes on brexit. also with us, anita boateng, who was a tory special adviser through the brexit years, and nick watt, our political editor. nick, what does keir starmer want? what was he trying to do today? right now, he is in paris for the paralympic opening ceremony. tomorrow, he will beat emmanuel macron, and earlier today, he met the german chancellor 0laf scholz. in a sense, it is talking about the great reset, how warm and closer relationships with our european partners after the sort of brexit war zone, partners after the sort of brexit warzone, in partners after the sort of brexit war zone, in a sense, the prime minister is offering the classical bargain that you would offer if you are outside the eu but want to be close, which is, as one of the two great defence powers in europe, we

have a lot to offer. perhaps we can have a lot to offer. perhaps we can have a lot to offer. perhaps we can have a chat about economic cooperation. that sort of classical grand bargain, but it looks like practically it will be baby steps, things like recognising professional qualifications, greater cooperation in certain areas like defence cooperation. but we won't be crossing the red lines, having free movement orjoining the single market, norjoining the customs union. there was a lot of chatter about maybe having a youth mobility scheme. the prime minister said no plans on that. 0bviously that does not mean never. at the moment, he is talking about cultural and educational exchanges. lord wood, ou are educational exchanges. lord wood, you are plugged _ educational exchanges. lord wood, you are plugged in- _ educational exchanges. lord wood, you are plugged in. for— educational exchanges. lord wood, you are plugged in. for people - you are plugged in. for people watching newsnight right now, will they notice any difference in their lives? not in the short term, no. what _ not in the short term, no. what about after six months, which is how long we are told it will take? the eu itself is currently going through— the eu itself is currently going through a change of leadership, because — through a change of leadership, because the new commission is being assembled. _ because the new commission is being assembled, so that's probably why he

is going _ assembled, so that's probably why he is going straight to germany and paris _ is going straight to germany and paris rather than to the commission, because _ paris rather than to the commission, because it _ paris rather than to the commission, because it doesn't really set up yet with its— because it doesn't really set up yet with its new identity. he is going for the _ with its new identity. he is going for the big — with its new identity. he is going for the big beasts first. he is trying — for the big beasts first. he is trying to— for the big beasts first. he is trying to create goodwill, which might _ trying to create goodwill, which might seem like a lot of hot air and fluff, _ might seem like a lot of hot air and fluff, but _ might seem like a lot of hot air and fluff, but i'm afraid there was a lot of— fluff, but i'm afraid there was a lot of bad — fluff, but i'm afraid there was a lot of bad will created in the last seven _ lot of bad will created in the last seven years, so what he is doing is, these _ seven years, so what he is doing is, these treaties, the substance of them _ these treaties, the substance of them is — these treaties, the substance of them is not really a great big story, — them is not really a great big story, to _ them is not really a great big story, to be honest, but it shows that he _ story, to be honest, but it shows that he wants to create a sense that when _ that he wants to create a sense that when he _ that he wants to create a sense that when he leaves the room, chancellor of germany _ when he leaves the room, chancellor of germany and president of france will go. _ of germany and president of france will go. we — of germany and president of france will go, we can do business with this guy — will go, we can do business with this guy. down the line, there are a few things — this guy. down the line, there are a few things he wants. he and david lambie _ few things he wants. he and david lambie have said clearly they want to establish a regular summit between _ to establish a regular summit between the eu in the uk. they have spotted _ between the eu in the uk. they have spotted that because of ukraine and the uncertainty about what will happen — the uncertainty about what will happen after the presidential election in the us, that europe doesn't — election in the us, that europe doesn't know whether it will have to doesn't know whether it will have to do a lot _ doesn't know whether it will have to do a lot more for its own security in the _ do a lot more for its own security in the future than in the past. because — in the future than in the past. because of that and, as you say, because — because of that and, as you say, because britain is such an important contributor — because britain is such an important contributor to european security, we have something to offer. in return, he wants _ have something to offer. in return, he wants a — have something to offer. in return, he wants a regular dialogue with the

eu, which— he wants a regular dialogue with the eu, which ostensibly will be about defence _ eu, which ostensibly will be about defence and security, but quickly will be _ defence and security, but quickly will be about all the other thing is he really— will be about all the other thing is he really wants. what are those? what _ he really wants. what are those? what are — he really wants. what are those? what are the things that would make a difference? he needs europe for help in— a difference? he needs europe for help in migration, for the illegal ntigration— help in migration, for the illegal migration boats problem, he needs europe's_ migration boats problem, he needs europe's helpi energy security. he particularly needs help to give british— particularly needs help to give british defence companies access to european _ british defence companies access to european securement, the production of new— european securement, the production of new kinds of weapons, if that will indeed be the way europe goes on that _ will indeed be the way europe goes on that. and particularly, he needs growth, _ on that. and particularly, he needs growth, and — on that. and particularly, he needs growth, and companies, notjust at the european level, but specific big countries _ the european level, but specific big countries like germany and france to tell their— countries like germany and france to tell their companies, countries like germany and france to telltheir companies, britain is countries like germany and france to tell their companies, britain is a place _ tell their companies, britain is a place you — tell their companies, britain is a place you can start to think about doing _ place you can start to think about doing business, may be in a way you haven't— doing business, may be in a way you haven't for— doing business, may be in a way you haven't for the last seven or eight years _ haven't for the last seven or eight years. those the tangible things he wants. _ years. those the tangible things he wants, alongside things you mention, mutuai— wants, alongside things you mention, mutual recognition of qualifications, issues to do with visas _ qualifications, issues to do with visas for— qualifications, issues to do with visas for touring musicians and other— visas for touring musicians and other issues brexit has thrown up. i other issues brexit has thrown up. i need _ other issues brexit has thrown up. i need to, — other issues brexit has thrown up. i need to, we have had a press release from the shadow brexit secretary who says, stammer has

spent his entire political career plotting to reverse brexit. it doesn't take a genius to tell where he is headed. is doesn't take a genius to tell where he is headed-— he is headed. is that true? it is he is headed. is that true? it is not — he is headed. is that true? it is not about _ he is headed. is that true? it is not about reversing i he is headed. is that true? - it is not about reversing brexit, but about — it is not about reversing brexit, but about creating _ it is not about reversing brexit, but about creating a _ it is not about reversing brexit, but about creating a different . it is not about reversing brexit, . but about creating a different kind of relationship. _ but about creating a different kind of relationship. lots _ but about creating a different kind of relationship. lots has - but about creating a different kind of relationship. lots has changedl but about creating a different kind. of relationship. lots has changed in the last— of relationship. lots has changed in the last seven — of relationship. lots has changed in the last seven years, _ of relationship. lots has changed in the last seven years, as _ of relationship. lots has changed in the last seven years, as was - the last seven years, as was said, but i _ the last seven years, as was said, but i think— the last seven years, as was said, but i think you _ the last seven years, as was said, but i think you should _ the last seven years, as was said, but i think you should credit - the last seven years, as was said, but i think you should credit rishi| but i think you should credit rishi sunak— but i think you should credit rishi sunak somewhat _ but i think you should credit rishi sunak somewhat for— but i think you should credit rishi sunak somewhat for the - but i think you should credit rishi sunak somewhat for the wins - sunak somewhat for the wins framework, _ sunak somewhat for the wins framework, which _ sunak somewhat for the wins framework, which is - sunak somewhat for the wins framework, which is a - sunak somewhat for the wins framework, which is a big - sunak somewhat for the wins - framework, which is a big moment for resetting _ framework, which is a big moment for resetting relationships, _ framework, which is a big moment for resetting relationships, and _ resetting relationships, and actually— resetting relationships, and actually boris _ resetting relationships, and actually borisjohnson - resetting relationships, and actually boris johnson and i resetting relationships, and i actually boris johnson and mr resetting relationships, and - actually boris johnson and mr sunak who were _ actually boris johnson and mr sunak who were really _ actually boris johnson and mr sunak who were really strong _ actually boris johnson and mr sunak who were really strong in _ actually boris johnson and mr sunak who were really strong in ukraine, l who were really strong in ukraine, which _ who were really strong in ukraine, which provided _ who were really strong in ukraine, which provided that _ who were really strong in ukraine, which provided that kind _ who were really strong in ukraine, which provided that kind of- which provided that kind of leadership— which provided that kind of leadership which— which provided that kind of leadership which has - which provided that kind of leadership which has led . which provided that kind of| leadership which has led to which provided that kind of. leadership which has led to a which provided that kind of- leadership which has led to a real warming — leadership which has led to a real warming of— leadership which has led to a real warming of relationships, - leadership which has led to a real warming of relationships, so- leadership which has led to a real warming of relationships, so i- leadership which has led to a real. warming of relationships, so i think stammer— warming of relationships, so i think stammer complained _ warming of relationships, so i think stammer complained about - warming of relationships, so i think stammer complained about his - stammer complained about his inheritance _ stammer complained about his inheritance from _ stammer complained about his inheritance from the _ stammer complained about his - inheritance from the conservatives 'ust inheritance from the conservatives just yesterday _ inheritance from the conservatives just yesterday. when _ inheritance from the conservatives just yesterday. when it _ inheritance from the conservatives just yesterday. when it comes - inheritance from the conservatives just yesterday. when it comes to l just yesterday. when it comes to europe, — just yesterday. when it comes to europe, actually, _ just yesterday. when it comes to europe, actually, he _ just yesterday. when it comes to europe, actually, he got- just yesterday. when it comes to europe, actually, he got a - just yesterday. when it comes to europe, actually, he got a better inheritance — europe, actually, he got a better inheritance than— europe, actually, he got a better inheritance than mr— europe, actually, he got a better inheritance than mr sunak- europe, actually, he got a better| inheritance than mr sunak indeed -ot, inheritance than mr sunak indeed got, so _ inheritance than mr sunak indeed got, so i — inheritance than mr sunak indeed got, so i think— inheritance than mr sunak indeed got, so i think there _ inheritance than mr sunak indeed got, so i think there has - inheritance than mr sunak indeed got, so i think there has been - inheritance than mr sunak indeed got, so i think there has been a l got, so i think there has been a broader— got, so i think there has been a broader and _ got, so i think there has been a broader and wider— got, so i think there has been a broader and wider reset - got, so i think there has been a broader and wider reset of- broader and wider reset of relationships. _ broader and wider reset of relationships. the - broader and wider reset ofi relationships. the question broader and wider reset of- relationships. the question comes broader and wider reset of— relationships. the question comes to what kevin _ relationships. the question comes to what kevin hollen_ relationships. the question comes to what kevin hollen rake _ relationships. the question comes to what kevin hollen rake said - relationships. the question comes to what kevin hollen rake said about.

what kevin hollen rake said about where _ what kevin hollen rake said about where this— what kevin hollen rake said about where this goes _ what kevin hollen rake said about where this goes next, _ what kevin hollen rake said about where this goes next, because . what kevin hollen rake said about| where this goes next, because the reality— where this goes next, because the reality is, — where this goes next, because the reality is, if— where this goes next, because the reality is, if we _ where this goes next, because the reality is, if we are _ where this goes next, because the reality is, if we are talking - where this goes next, because the reality is, if we are talking about, i reality is, if we are talking about, i reality is, if we are talking about, i don't _ reality is, if we are talking about, idon't know. _ reality is, if we are talking about, i don't know, veterinary- reality is, if we are talking about, i i don't know, veterinary agreement, or significantly — i don't know, veterinary agreement, or significantly improving _ i don't know, veterinary agreement, or significantly improving trading - or significantly improving trading relationships. _ or significantly improving trading relationships, you _ or significantly improving trading relationships, you come - or significantly improving trading relationships, you come down i or significantly improving trading relationships, you come down toj or significantly improving trading - relationships, you come down to the fundamentals, — relationships, you come down to the fundamentals, which— relationships, you come down to the fundamentals, which is— relationships, you come down to the fundamentals, which is dynamic- fundamentals, which is dynamic alignment. _ fundamentals, which is dynamic alignment, which— fundamentals, which is dynamic alignment, which is— fundamentals, which is dynamic alignment, which is a _ fundamentals, which is dynamic alignment, which is a thing - fundamentals, which is dynamic alignment, which is a thing thel fundamentals, which is dynamic. alignment, which is a thing the eu will once, — alignment, which is a thing the eu will once, and _ alignment, which is a thing the eu will once, and the _ alignment, which is a thing the eu will once, and the question - alignment, which is a thing the eu will once, and the question is, - alignment, which is a thing the eu will once, and the question is, arej will once, and the question is, are you willing — will once, and the question is, are you willing to _ will once, and the question is, are you willing to take _ will once, and the question is, are you willing to take those - will once, and the question is, are you willing to take those rules - will once, and the question is, arej you willing to take those rules and not make — you willing to take those rules and not make those _ you willing to take those rules and not make those rules? _ you willing to take those rules and not make those rules? that- not make those rules? that fundamental— not make those rules? that fundamental trade—off- not make those rules? that fundamental trade—off stilli not make those rules? that- fundamental trade—off still exists regardless — fundamental trade—off still exists regardless of _ fundamental trade—off still exists regardless of whether— fundamental trade—off still exists regardless of whether starmer. fundamental trade—off still exists i regardless of whether starmer and 0laf regardless of whether starmer and olaf scholz — regardless of whether starmer and 0laf scholz and _ regardless of whether starmer and 0laf scholz and emmanuel- regardless of whether starmer and 0laf scholz and emmanuel macronj regardless of whether starmer and - 0laf scholz and emmanuel macron look friendly— 0laf scholz and emmanuel macron look friendly or— 0laf scholz and emmanuel macron look friendly or not — friendly or not. luke, - friendly or not. luke, where i friendly or not. luke, where is| friendly or not. . luke, where is the friendly or not. - luke, where is the great friendly or not. _ luke, where is the great british public when it comes to closer relations with the eu nations? i think the thing which probably sums— i think the thing which probably sums up— i think the thing which probably sums up where the public are on relations— sums up where the public are on relations with europe, it is like that— relations with europe, it is like that victorian adage about children, they would like it to be seen and not heard — they would like it to be seen and not heard. by that, i mean lots of the public— not heard. by that, i mean lots of the public would like us to get on better— the public would like us to get on better with europe and have closer relationships, but the idea of going back to _ relationships, but the idea of going back to the era of brexit was, talking — back to the era of brexit was, talking constantly about europe, fills people with dread, and that is because _ fills people with dread, and that is because if— fills people with dread, and that is because if you look at the polling, one thing — because if you look at the polling, one thing that unites remain as and

levers, _ one thing that unites remain as and levers, they— one thing that unites remain as and levers, they don't think it's gone welt _ levers, they don't think it's gone well. levers don't think it has been a success, — well. levers don't think it has been a success, remain as don't think it has been — a success, remain as don't think it has been a — a success, remain as don't think it has been a success, but they still differ— has been a success, but they still differ in— has been a success, but they still differ in what we should do now. leave _ differ in what we should do now. leave the — differ in what we should do now. leave the voters are more likely to say say _ leave the voters are more likely to say say out, — leave the voters are more likely to say say out, remain voters are more likely— say say out, remain voters are more likely to — say say out, remain voters are more likely to say _ say say out, remain voters are more likely to say rejoin. the thing that's— likely to say rejoin. the thing that's changed as younger voters entering — that's changed as younger voters entering the electorate, they would vote to _ entering the electorate, they would vote to go — entering the electorate, they would vote to go back in, or for a closer relationship _ vote to go back in, or for a closer relationship. where the rubber hits the road _ relationship. where the rubber hits the road will be the issue of free movement, because we also know people _ movement, because we also know people are — movement, because we also know people are concerned about immigration and think that levels of immigration and think that levels of immigration are too high. sol immigration and think that levels of immigration are too high. so i take those _ immigration are too high. so i take those polls— immigration are too high. so i take those polls showing that people would _ those polls showing that people would vote to rejoin with just a pinch _ would vote to rejoin with just a pinch of— would vote to rejoin with just a pinch of salt, because once you get to the _ pinch of salt, because once you get to the trade — pinch of salt, because once you get to the trade offs involved, people start to _ to the trade offs involved, people start to go, oh, and they start to say that— start to go, oh, and they start to say that especially when they think about— say that especially when they think about negotiations involved, taking up about negotiations involved, taking upjust_ about negotiations involved, taking upjust more political airtime. up just more political airtime. shall— up just more political airtime. shall we — upjust more political airtime. shall we talk about the movement of under 305? that has been discussed and reported in various newspaper5, and reported in various newspapers, and reported in various newspapers, and a5

and reported in various newspapers, and as you mention, it came up today. germany germany seem5 keen on a scheme whereby young germans could come here and study or learn english or for some employment experience. keir starmer was asked if it would be part of his so—called "reset". that does not mean rever5ing brexit or re—entering the single market or the customs union. but it does mean a closer relationship on a number of front5, including the economy, including defence, including exchanges. but we do not have plans for the youth mobility scheme. but we do have plans for a closer relationship between us and the eu, as part of that. no plans for that scheme. you are all smiling, because you know it means it might happen. what does exchanges mean, lord would? doe5 exchanges mean, lord would? i think it means specific school exchanges which have been problematic in the last two years, and it— problematic in the last two years, and it could mean university exchanges, so you can spend a year abroad _ exchanges, so you can spend a year abroad. britain has been excluded

from _ abroad. britain has been excluded from programmes before that make that possible, like erasmus. ithink he is _ that possible, like erasmus. ithink he is clearly — that possible, like erasmus. ithink he is clearly worried that if he says _ he is clearly worried that if he says yes — he is clearly worried that if he says yes to ease mobility in public, in fact, _ says yes to ease mobility in public, in fact, at— says yes to ease mobility in public, in fact, at all, that looks like opening _ in fact, at all, that looks like opening the door to young people coming _ opening the door to young people coming overand taking opening the door to young people coming over and taking upjobs in barsand— coming over and taking upjobs in bars and restaurants across towns and cities — bars and restaurants across towns and cities in — bars and restaurants across towns and cities in britain again, that will be — and cities in britain again, that will be used against them. but — will be used against them. but does he believe it in private? i think what he wants to do, two things— i think what he wants to do, two things need to happen before the public, _ things need to happen before the public, correct me if i'm wrong, can move _ public, correct me if i'm wrong, can move on— public, correct me if i'm wrong, can move on this — public, correct me if i'm wrong, can move on this question of immigration from europe — move on this question of immigration from europe in the future. one, we need _ from europe in the future. one, we need to— from europe in the future. one, we need to get— from europe in the future. one, we need to get a grip on the illegal, even _ need to get a grip on the illegal, even though it is about asylum seekers, — even though it is about asylum seekers, illegal migrants rather than _ seekers, illegal migrants rather than regular migrants from europe, we have _ than regular migrants from europe, we have to — than regular migrants from europe, we have to get a grip on that. but there _ we have to get a grip on that. but there are tiny numbers of so—called illegal immigrants compared to the number of legal visa5 that were handed outlast compared to the number of legal visa5 that were handed out last year by the conservative government. this is about politically per5uading this is about politically persuading the public rather than the numbers, because _ the public rather than the numbers, because secondly, i think you need to have _ because secondly, i think you need to have a _ because secondly, i think you need to have a huge demonstration effect policies. _ to have a huge demonstration effect policies, particularly about things like school exchanges, to show that you can _ like school exchanges, to show that you can first — like school exchanges, to show that you can first get a deal out of europe — you can first get a deal out of europe and something small, then in

effect, _ europe and something small, then in effect, young people —— that will affect— effect, young people —— that will affect young people particularly profoundly, you could argue, show it can be _ profoundly, you could argue, show it can be controlled, then you can think— can be controlled, then you can think about things like bringing in workers _ think about things like bringing in workers for particular sectors, but it seems— workers for particular sectors, but it seems to — workers for particular sectors, but it seems to me that is a long way off at— it seems to me that is a long way off at the — it seems to me that is a long way off at the moment. i it seems to me that is a long way off at the moment.— off at the moment. i think the ublic, off at the moment. i think the public. if _ off at the moment. i think the public. if you _ off at the moment. i think the public, if you look _ off at the moment. i think the public, if you look at - off at the moment. i think the public, if you look at the - off at the moment. i think the i public, if you look at the polling, a more open to the idea of something on youth mobility. when we asked about something similar to what we have with australia, where people under 30 can go over for a limited australia, where people under 30 can go overfor a limited period but don't have records to stay and support, i think people are more willing to countenance that, because they say this will benefit my kids and family. but again, if it starts to look like something bigger and wider, that is where the political risk comes. wider, that is where the political risk comes-— risk comes. keir starmer are so scarred by _ risk comes. keir starmer are so scarred by 2019. _ scarred by 2019. let's _ scarred by 2019. let's not forget what he said then, that he _ let's not forget what he said then, that he would have another referendum, and if it was hell, he would _ referendum, and if it was hell, he would want — referendum, and if it was hell, he would want to go back in the eu. that— would want to go back in the eu. that was— would want to go back in the eu. that was what happened, and then it was the _ that was what happened, and then it was the 2019 election. he is so scarred — was the 2019 election. he is so scarred by— was the 2019 election. he is so scarred by that that anything that sounds _ scarred by that that anything that sounds or— scarred by that that anything that sounds or looks remotely like free movement— sounds or looks remotely like free movement for him is absolutely impossible. maybe, you get what stuart _ impossible. maybe, you get what stuart is — impossible. maybe, you get what stuart is talking about, because for

the eu, _ stuart is talking about, because for the eu, if— stuart is talking about, because for the eu, if you want to go beyond baby— the eu, if you want to go beyond baby steps on economic access, mobility— baby steps on economic access, mobility is— baby steps on economic access, mobility is one of the absolute thing — mobility is one of the absolute thing is — mobility is one of the absolute thing is that the european union will say— thing is that the european union will say has to be there, and it is fine for— will say has to be there, and it is fine for keir— will say has to be there, and it is fine for keir starmer to go and meet the french— fine for keir starmer to go and meet the french president and german chancellor, but they are both spectacularly weak, so the leaders of the _ spectacularly weak, so the leaders of the two — spectacularly weak, so the leaders of the two most important countries in the _ of the two most important countries in the eu _ of the two most important countries in the eu are very weak. power is like water~ — in the eu are very weak. power is like water~ it— in the eu are very weak. power is like water. it has to find its level — like water. it has to find its level if— like water. it has to find its level. if the leaders in france and germany— level. if the leaders in france and germany are weak, where does the power— germany are weak, where does the power go? — germany are weak, where does the power go? the european commission, they are _ power go? the european commission, they are the _ power go? the european commission, they are the guardians of treaties. and starmer needs to have the courage — and starmer needs to have the courage of— and starmer needs to have the courage of his— and starmer needs to have the courage of his convictions - and starmer needs to have the courage of his convictions on i and starmer needs to have the i courage of his convictions on this. it is courage of his convictions on this. it is something _ courage of his convictions on this. it is something he _ courage of his convictions on this. it is something he really- courage of his convictions on this. | it is something he really believes, and he _ it is something he really believes, and he has — it is something he really believes, and he has consistently— it is something he really believes, and he has consistently believed l and he has consistently believed this, _ and he has consistently believed this, it _ and he has consistently believed this, it takes— and he has consistently believed this, it takes political— and he has consistently believed this, it takes political courage, i and he has consistently believedl this, it takes political courage, at the moment— this, it takes political courage, at the moment when _ this, it takes political courage, at the moment when he _ this, it takes political courage, at the moment when he will- this, it takes political courage, at the moment when he will have i this, it takes political courage, at. the moment when he will have the most _ the moment when he will have the most political _ the moment when he will have the most political power— the moment when he will have the most political power he _ the moment when he will have the most political power he will - the moment when he will have the most political power he will ever. most political power he will ever have, _ most political power he will ever have, to — most political power he will ever have, to move _ most political power he will ever have, to move the _ most political power he will ever have, to move the dial- most political power he will ever have, to move the dial on- most political power he will ever have, to move the dial on this, i have, to move the dial on this, we're _ have, to move the dial on this, we're not — have, to move the dial on this, we're not saying _ have, to move the dial on this, we're not saying that _ have, to move the dial on this, we're not saying that so - have, to move the dial on this, we're not saying that so far. i we're not saying that so far. back— we're not saying that so far. back with _ we're not saying that so far. back with you _ we're not saying that so far. back with you thank- we're not saying that so far. back with you thank you. i —— back with you shortly. thank you. nearly 12 years after the publication of the leveson inquiry report into the culture, practices and ethics of the newspaper industry in the uk, a report today from the body

which oversees regulation of the press the press recognition panel, suggests many ordinary people — their words — 5till experience pre55 intrusion and don't have access to justice unless they bring a claim through the courts. two people who say they have experienced this are two mum5, christine flack, mother of tv presenter caroline flack, who took her own life in 2020, and mandy garner, who5e 20—year—old daughter anisha wa5 killled by a speeding car. we can talk to them both now. thank you very much, christine and mandy for being with us. mandy, i wonder if i could first a5k mandy, i wonder if i could first ask you to tell our audience what happened to ani5ha? anisha wa5 happened to ani5ha? anisha was out with her boyfriend and his friend on february 19, 2020, and his friend on february 19, 2020, and they wereju5t and his friend on february 19, 2020, and they were just going to cross the road to go to a cash point when a car came out of nowhere, driving on both sides of the road, going through to red lights at great speed down at brixton hill, hit anisha, didn't stop, and she was killed

straight away. and then we got told that 2am. the daily mail went to the shop whether ca5hpoint wa5 daily mail went to the shop whether ca5hpoint was and got the video footage and put the video footage up the following day. —— the shop where they ca5hpoint wa5. they ca5hpoint was. so hours after you had been told that your 20—year—old daughter had been killed. yes. and as i understand it, the footage was essentially the last moments of anisha. it was put on mail 0nline i5 anisha. it was put on mail 0nline is a video exclusive, and i think we have got the headline a5 a video exclusive, and i think we have got the headline as well, which we can show our audience. shocking moment a young woman is 5ome some members of yourfamily some members of your family so this footage. what effect did it have on them? they were absolutely incensed that

this could go up, and distressed by it, and in fact, this could go up, and distressed by it, and infact, my this could go up, and distressed by it, and in fact, my brother did contact the daily mail the following day, and the video was taken down, but they told me about it. i didn't actually see the video, and i am a journalist, so i knew about ipso, journali5t, so i knew about ipso, the press regulator, so i sent in a complaint about intru5ion the press regulator, so i sent in a complaint about intrusion into grief. i thought it was an absolutely obvious ca5e grief. i thought it was an absolutely obvious case of press intrusion, but i didn't expect it to take six months of back and forth with the daily mail and then for ip5o to find in favour of them. so your complaint of intru5ion ip5o to find in favour of them. so your complaint of intrusion into your grief wa5 so your complaint of intrusion into your grief was rejected? yes. we asked the daily mail 0nline for a statement but they didn't come back to us. a previous statement said that they offered their condolences to the family but did not accept that the conclusion of the video

breached clau5e four of the code covering intru5ion breached clau5e four of the code covering intrusion into grief or 5hock. covering intrusion into grief or shock. the daily mail online 5aid covering intrusion into grief or shock. the daily mail online said it had taken steps to and punted reader5 had taken steps to and punted readers to come forward with information to locate the driver of the car. ., �* , information to locate the driver of the car. . �* , ., , information to locate the driver of the car. . �*, ., , ., the car. that's what they said, to .0' the car. that's what they said, to jog people's _ the car. that's what they said, to jog people's memories. - the car. that's what they said, to jog people's memories. i - the car. that's what they said, to jog people's memories. i don't . the car. that's what they said, to i jog people's memories. i don't think anybody who saw... in their own words they said that she was flung into the air like a ragdoll but i don't think anybody who saw that would need their memoryjogging. for me it was a clear ca5e would need their memoryjogging. for me it was a clear case of click bait. ~ , ., ., ., ,, bait. when you were told that ipso was rejecting _ bait. when you were told that ipso was rejecting your _ bait. when you were told that ipso was rejecting your complaint, i bait. when you were told that ipso was rejecting your complaint, howl wa5 rejecting your complaint, how did you respond? was rejecting your complaint, how did you respond?— was rejecting your complaint, how did you respond? absolutely... every interchange. — did you respond? absolutely... every interchange, every _ did you respond? absolutely... every interchange, every exchange - did you respond? absolutely... every interchange, every exchange with i interchange, every exchange with ipso and the daily mail, i was so angry. i was physically shaking. i stayed up, when they found in fail of the daily mail, i stayed up all

night, clicking through, how many cases have ipso upheld of intru5ion cases have ipso upheld of intrusion into grief and i only found i think one or two at most. in a five year period. i mean, you know, the whole system seemed completely farcical to me. . system seemed completely farcical to me. , , ., ., , , me. christine, tell us what happened to ou in me. christine, tell us what happened to you in 2020- _ me. christine, tell us what happened to you in 2020. caroline _ me. christine, tell us what happened to you in 2020. caroline had - me. christine, tell us what happened to you in 2020. caroline had been i to you in 2020. caroline had been arrested for _ to you in 2020. caroline had been arrested for an _ to you in 2020. caroline had been arrested for an incident _ to you in 2020. caroline had been arrested for an incident that i arrested for an incident that happened but while the police were there. _ happened but while the police were there. she — happened but while the police were there, she tried to commit suicide, she cut _ there, she tried to commit suicide, she cut her— there, she tried to commit suicide, she cut her arms. she was held in a police _ she cut her arms. she was held in a police station for 24 hours. when they released her, she couldn't go home _ they released her, she couldn't go home so— they released her, she couldn't go home so is— they released her, she couldn't go home so is the went to her sister's. myself— home so is the went to her sister's. myself and — home so is the went to her sister's. myself and her two friends who lived not far _ myself and her two friends who lived not far away went to her flat to clean _ not far away went to her flat to clean it — not far away went to her flat to clean it up _ not far away went to her flat to clean it up so she could go home and

to get— clean it up so she could go home and to get some — clean it up so she could go home and to get some of her clothes to take to get some of her clothes to take to her~ _ to get some of her clothes to take to her~ i_ to get some of her clothes to take to her. i suppose we were there for about— to her. i suppose we were there for about one — to her. i suppose we were there for about one hour. we came out. as we -ot about one hour. we came out. as we got in _ about one hour. we came out. as we got in the _ about one hour. we came out. as we got in the car— about one hour. we came out. as we got in the car to go and see caroline. _ got in the car to go and see caroline, we were followed by two cars and _ caroline, we were followed by two cars and a — caroline, we were followed by two cars and a motorbike. how caroline, we were followed by two cars and a motorbike.— caroline, we were followed by two cars and a motorbike. how did juno ou were cars and a motorbike. how did juno you were being _ cars and a motorbike. how did juno you were being followed? - cars and a motorbike. how did juno you were being followed? you i cars and a motorbike. how did juno | you were being followed? you could see them. you were being followed? you could see them- -- _ you were being followed? you could see them. -- how— you were being followed? you could see them. -- how did _ you were being followed? you could see them. -- how did you _ you were being followed? you could see them. -- how did you know i you were being followed? you could see them. -- how did you know you| see them. —— how did you know you were _ see them. —— how did you know you were being — see them. —— how did you know you were being followed? whenever we turned. _ were being followed? whenever we turned, they were there. we didn't always— turned, they were there. we didn't always know how they would know where _ always know how they would know where we — always know how they would know where we would be. we were, you know. _ where we would be. we were, you know, shocked. we couldn't believe that they— know, shocked. we couldn't believe that they would do something like that _ that they would do something like that the — that they would do something like that. the upshot was that i couldn't io that. the upshot was that i couldn't go to— that. the upshot was that i couldn't go to caroline's. i couldn't see her or take _ go to caroline's. i couldn't see her or take her— go to caroline's. i couldn't see her or take her stuff to her because she -- they— or take her stuff to her because she —— they would know where she was staying _ —— they would know where she was staying so — —— they would know where she was staying so i — —— they would know where she was staying. so i had to contact my doctor. — staying. so i had to contact my doctor, jodie, who she'd gone to, to come _ doctor, jodie, who she'd gone to, to come and _ doctor, jodie, who she'd gone to, to come and see us and collect

everything. come and see us and collect everything-— come and see us and collect eve hina. ., y., ., everything. now, you were, and caroline was... _ everything. now, you were, and caroline was... used _ everything. now, you were, and caroline was... used to - everything. now, you were, and caroline was... used to being i caroline wa5... used to being followed by paparazzi or journalist5. but you, as her mum, dad was a new experience for you. what did it feel like? it dad was a new experience for you. what did it feel like?— what did it feel like? it was awful and i then understood _ what did it feel like? it was awful and i then understood what i what did it feel like? it was awful and i then understood what she l what did it feel like? it was awful i and i then understood what she meant about. _ and i then understood what she meant about. you _ and i then understood what she meant about, you know, the press always being _ about, you know, the press always being there. and in the end, when she moved — being there. and in the end, when she moved out of her house, she had to move _ she moved out of her house, she had to move at _ she moved out of her house, she had to move at 3am. so that they weren't there _ to move at 3am. so that they weren't there. did— to move at 3am. so that they weren't there. , , ., to move at 3am. so that they weren't there. , ,. .., , to move at 3am. so that they weren't there. , ,., .., , ., ,, to move at 3am. so that they weren't there. , y., , ., ,, ., there. did you consider making a complaint? _ there. did you consider making a complaint? did _ there. did you consider making a complaint? did you _ there. did you consider making a complaint? did you know- there. did you consider making a complaint? did you know who i there. did you consider making a complaint? did you know who to| there. did you consider making a i complaint? did you know who to go to if you wanted to complain? i complaint? did you know who to go to if you wanted to complain?— if you wanted to complain? i didn't know where _ if you wanted to complain? i didn't know where to _ if you wanted to complain? i didn't know where to go _ if you wanted to complain? i didn't know where to go to. _ if you wanted to complain? i didn't know where to go to. and - if you wanted to complain? i didn't know where to go to. and caroline| know where to go to. and caroline was so _ know where to go to. and caroline was so frightened of the press, it was so frightened of the press, it was all. — was so frightened of the press, it was all, don't say anything because if you _ was all, don't say anything because if you get— was all, don't say anything because if you get on alongside of them, this happens and there will be more stories _ this happens and there will be more stories. and it was like that. it wasn't — stories. and it was like that. it wasn't until she actually committed suicide _ wasn't until she actually committed suicide that i think the press began

to realise _ suicide that i think the press began to realise that they'd gone too far. and then _ to realise that they'd gone too far. and then i — to realise that they'd gone too far. and then i didn't know what to do. you don't — and then i didn't know what to do. you don't know where to go. to be honest. _ you don't know where to go. to be honest. we — you don't know where to go. to be honest, we couldn't afford to take the press — honest, we couldn't afford to take the press to court. find honest, we couldn't afford to take the press to court.— honest, we couldn't afford to take the press to court. and that's what the press to court. and that's what the re ort the press to court. and that's what the report today — the press to court. and that's what the report today is _ the press to court. and that's what the report today is suggesting. i the report today is suggesting. unless you're a wealthy celebrity, a member of the royal family, unless you're a wealthy celebrity, a member of the royalfamily, your —— you're not going to be able to take them to court and get redress, a5 them to court and get redress, as you've demonstrated, mandy. what happened to you, that experience, lead to you contacting hacked 0ff lead to you contacting hacked off and you are now on the board. what would you like to see now? there are two regulators. i won't go into the processes of how they came about but there are two but that isn't enough? well, what i'd like to see would—be and independent pre55 regulator, which one of them is, one of those regulators i5, and it came about as

the result of the leveson inquiry, and to see the leveson inquiry recommendations implemented in full. 0ne recommendations implemented in full. one reason i've heard from mp5 for not pushing food the lovers and inquiry recommendations i5 not pushing food the lovers and inquiry recommendations is that —— for not pushing through the leveson inquiry recommendations i5 for not pushing through the leveson inquiry recommendations is that things have moved on, but it hasn't. click bait i5 things have moved on, but it hasn't. click bait is more and more of a thing. for commercial reasons and what have you. it needs to be regulated. d0 what have you. it needs to be regulated-— what have you. it needs to be reaulated. ~ , regulated. do you think most people would rive regulated. do you think most people would give up _ regulated. do you think most people would give up and _ regulated. do you think most people would give up and that's _ regulated. do you think most people would give up and that's what - regulated. do you think most people would give up and that's what they l would give up and that's what they want. _ would give up and that's what they want. for— would give up and that's what they want, for you to give up? absolutely, most people don't know about ipso, for starters. i knew because i'm a journalist but most people who are bereaved, grieving, are just not going to go through that whole process of six months. they asked me half way through it, i kept saying it was so di5tressing kept saying it was so distressing

and they said, you can give up if you want. i was like, no way, i'm doing this because i am journali5t doing this because i am journalist and i want the press to be better and i want the press to be better and because i don't think somebody who is... people will give up. i think it's the obvious thing, that you will give up if you're going through such awful circum5tance5. finally, what do you say to those, some of them in the media, that if you start putting more re5trictions you start putting more restrictions on, then you are on a slippery slope to cen5orship on, then you are on a slippery slope to censorship and to members of the media not being able to expose criminality or corruption for instance? i criminality or corruption for instance?— criminality or corruption for instance? ., �* ~ , ., ., criminality or corruption for instance? ., �* ~ ., . instance? i don't think you are. we don't want — instance? i don't think you are. we don't want the _ instance? i don't think you are. we don't want the press _ instance? i don't think you are. we don't want the press to _ instance? i don't think you are. we don't want the press to be - instance? i don't think you are. we don't want the press to be stopped j don't want the press to be stopped doing _ don't want the press to be stopped doing anything but there should be a

standard _ doing anything but there should be a standard. there's got to be. there is the editor _ standard. there's got to be. there is the editor is's _ standard. there's got to be. there is the editor is's code _ standard. there's got to be. there is the editor is's code of— standard. there's got to be. there is the editor is's code of conduct. | is the editor is's code of conduct. which they don't follow. they don't follow _ which they don't follow. they don't follow it _ it's from a woman who says 54—3er it. usegcereeiand esters! which they don't follow. they don't it's from a woman who says follow it. two years ago they wrote 54—3er it. two ecereeiand esters! it's from a woman who says 543er it. two years ia—ed esters! it's from a woman who says 543er it. two years ia— they are! it's from a woman who says another _ follow it. two years ago they wrote another story about my daughter, 543er it. two years i—a they wroteg; follow it. two years ago they wrote another _ follow it. two years ago they wrote another story about my daughter, totally _ another story about my daughter, totally false, totally false and the totally _ another story about my daughter, totally false, totally false and the only person i knew was the editor of only person i knew was the editor of the sun. _ the sun. _ only person i knew was the editor of the sun, victoria newton. i wrote to only person i knew was the editor of the sun, victoria newton. i wrote to her and _ the sun, victoria newton. i wrote to her and she — the sun, victoria newton. i wrote to her and she wrote back to me, very her and _ the sun, victoria newton. i wrote to her and she — the sun, victoria newton. i wrote to her and she wrote back to me, very sorry, _ her and she wrote back to me, very sorry. we _ her and she wrote back to me, very sorry, _ her and she wrote back to me, very sorry. we _ her and she wrote back to me, very sorry, we were busy and it slipped sorry, we were busy and it slipped through. — sorry, we were busy and it slipped through. — sorry, we were busy and it slipped through, and she apologised. right. through, and she apologised. right. basicall , basicall , through, and she apologised. right. basically. when _ through, and she apologised. right. basically, when i _ through, and she apologised. right. basically, when i was training i through, and she apologised. fl grit. basically, when i was training there through, and she apologised. right. basically. when _ through, and she apologised. right. basically, when i _ through, and she apologised. right. basically, when i was training i through, and she apologised. fl grit. basically, when i was training there ba5ically, when i was training there was a book that was about pre55 from one of our viewers? ba5ically, when i was training there was a book that was about pre55 was a book that was about press was a book that was about press freedom, that it has to be freedom, that it has to be responsible, the press mu5t responsible, the press mu5t freedom, that it has to be responsible, the press must be freedom, that it has to be responsible, the press must be responsible. it isn't about being free to do whatever you want. there responsible. it isn't about being free to do whatever you want. there has to be some accountability. thank has to be some accountability. thank ou has to be some accountability. thank you for talking _ has to be some accountability. thank you for talking to _ has to be some accountability. thank you for talking to us. _ the chancellor rachel reeve5 again ou has to be some accountability. thank you for talking _ has to be some accountability. thank you for talking to _ has to be some accountability. thank you for talking to us. _ the chancellor rachel reeve5 again defended the government's plan to remove winter fuel payments from ten million pensioners. the government says they have to do defended the government's plan to remove winter fuel payments from ten million pensioners. the government says they have to do

it to help with what they describe a5 a £22 billion black hole in the public finances. last night, we talked to labour's trea5ury minister james murray about it. it to help with what they describe a5 a £22 billion black hole in the public finances. last night, we talked to labour's trea5ury minister james murray about it. can i read you this e—mail can i read you this e—mail from one of our viewers? it's from a woman who says she is very concerned and extremely di5tressed on behalf of her dad about your government's decision to cut the winter fuel payments to pensioners. "he receives the state pension butjust mi55e5 "out on the requirement for pension credit. "my father has worked for the nhs diligently for years,

"this seems so unjustified and just en5ure5 her limited life savings "are eroded even faster." sean says: "personally, i don't like losing "the winter fuel allowance, but now i can afford it. "so how many more of us can live without this "to give to those in need?" and there's this whatsapp from john. "my mum is 87. "she is just above the pension credit limit. "during her working life, she was never a day out of work! "she relies on the winter fuel allowance not only for winter "but it may surprise you, in summer as well, as she feels cold "even when we feel hot! "i am staggered at taking this allowance away, "but the government is happy to pay huge pay increases to "public sector workers! "shocking! "uncaring! "disgraceful! " you have been talking to some labour loyalists. the you have been talking to some labour lo alists. , .. . you have been talking to some labour lo alists. , . , ., loyalists. the significance is that ou would loyalists. the significance is that you would expect _ loyalists. the significance is that you would expect that _ loyalists. the significance is that you would expect that the i loyalists. the significance is that | you would expect that the normal suspects who would rebel but i've

spoken to people who would be horrified at rebelling and they are very uneasy. rachel reeve5 5aid horrified at rebelling and they are very uneasy. rachel reeve5 said if you are not eligible for the pension credit then you won't have to winter fuel payments. it means if you are retired and have an income over £12,600 you won't get this. martin lewis said that is a very low threshold. it is mean5 te5ted. 0ne loyalist 5aid threshold. it is mean5 te5ted. 0ne loyalist said it was a mean, mean5 te5t. it's really bad politics. you could understand if rachel reeve5 did it in a budget, you can see it in the round, this group and that we are going to suffer but she singled out pensioners and this labour mp wa5 stupefied by that. why didn't 5he say that she would tax it, meaning richard pensioners —— richard pensioners would pay it but those who are struggling would keep the winter fuel payments pa5ta —— richer pensioners.

the5e these are not organised round robin letters, the5e these are not organised round robin letters, these are individual people telling the5e letters, these are individual people telling these stories.— telling these stories. we've had so man . telling these stories. we've had so many- luke. _ telling these stories. we've had so many. luke, what _ telling these stories. we've had so many. luke, what is _ telling these stories. we've had so many. luke, what is the _ telling these stories. we've had so many. luke, what is the polling i telling these stories. we've had so many. luke, what is the polling on this? i can't imagine many people love it. �* . this? i can't imagine many people love it. �* , ., this? i can't imagine many people love it. �*, ., ., , ., , love it. there's no doubt that this is an unpopular policy _ love it. there's no doubt that this is an unpopular policy with - love it. there's no doubt that this is an unpopular policy with the i is an unpopular policy with the public — is an unpopular policy with the public. well over half of the public say that _ public. well over half of the public say that they disapprove of the decision— say that they disapprove of the decision and that rises to over 80% amongst _ decision and that rises to over 80% amongst those above retirement age. the group _ amongst those above retirement age. the group you are going to be affected — the group you are going to be affected really disapprove. when we spoken— affected really disapprove. when we spoken to _ affected really disapprove. when we spoken to people in focus groups about— spoken to people in focus groups about this — spoken to people in focus groups about this they say that they have spent _ about this they say that they have spent their life paying in, they've done _ spent their life paying in, they've done their— spent their life paying in, they've done their bit and it is the state's turned _ done their bit and it is the state's turned to— done their bit and it is the state's turned to look after me and instead they are _ turned to look after me and instead they are taking something away from me. they are taking something away from me i_ they are taking something away from me ithink— they are taking something away from me. i think this is really dangerous politically— me. i think this is really dangerous politically for the government. the other— politically for the government. the other thing we know is that older voters _ other thing we know is that older voters are — other thing we know is that older voters are very good at making their voice _ voters are very good at making their voice heard — voters are very good at making their voice heard. we've seen that with people _ voice heard. we've seen that with people writing in, and they vote as well _ people writing in, and they vote as well i_ people writing in, and they vote as well ithink— people writing in, and they vote as well. i think labour is going to have _ well. i think labour is going to have to — well. i think labour is going to have to find a way through on this

to address — have to find a way through on this to address the discontent weight is getting _ to address the discontent weight is getting worse. to address the discontent weight is getting worse-— getting worse. what is the way of caettin getting worse. what is the way of getting through? _ getting worse. what is the way of getting through? -- _ getting worse. what is the way of getting through? -- which - getting worse. what is the way of getting through? -- which is i getting worse. what is the way of i getting through? -- which is getting getting through? —— which is getting worse. do you agree that the wor5e. do you agree that the di5content i5 wor5e. do you agree that the di5content is getting worse? worse. do you agree that the discontent is getting worse? labour --eole discontent is getting worse? labour people calling _ discontent is getting worse? labour people calling themselves - discontent is getting worse? labour people calling themselves loyalists | people calling themselves loyalists are worried — people calling themselves loyalists are worried about _ people calling themselves loyalists are worried about it. _ people calling themselves loyalists are worried about it. winter- people calling themselves loyalists are worried about it. winter fuel. are worried about it. winter fuel payments — are worried about it. winter fuel payments was _ are worried about it. winter fuel payments was invented - are worried about it. winter fuel payments was invented by- are worried about it. winter fuel. payments was invented by gordon brown _ payments was invented by gordon brown it— payments was invented by gordon brown it was— payments was invented by gordon brown it was a _ payments was invented by gordon brown. it was a way— payments was invented by gordon brown. it was a way of— payments was invented by gordon brown. it was a way of not - payments was invented by gordon i brown. it was a way of not operating pensions _ brown. it was a way of not operating pensions to— brown. it was a way of not operating pensions to keep _ brown. it was a way of not operating pensions to keep discipline - brown. it was a way of not operating pensions to keep discipline on - pensions to keep discipline on pension — pensions to keep discipline on pension it _ pensions to keep discipline on pension. it was _ pensions to keep discipline on pension. it was meant - pensions to keep discipline on pension. it was meant to i pensions to keep discipline on pension. it was meant to be i pension. it was meant to be temporary _ pension. it was meant to be temporary. there _ pension. it was meant to be temporary. there is - pension. it was meant to be temporary. there is a - pension. it was meant to be temporary. there is a case. pension. it was meant to be. temporary. there is a case of reforming _ temporary. there is a case of reforming it~ _ temporary. there is a case of reforming it. the _ temporary. there is a case of reforming it. the difficulty. temporary. there is a case ofl reforming it. the difficulty has come — reforming it. the difficulty has come from _ reforming it. the difficulty has come from detaching - reforming it. the difficulty has come from detaching the i reforming it. the difficulty has. come from detaching the means testing — come from detaching the means testing from _ come from detaching the means testing from the _ come from detaching the means testing from the fuel _ come from detaching the means testing from the fuel payment. come from detaching the meansi testing from the fuel payment. a treasury— testing from the fuel payment. a treasury official— testing from the fuel payment. a treasury official might _ testing from the fuel payment. a treasury official might say - testing from the fuel payment. a treasury official might say we - testing from the fuel payment. a| treasury official might say we will means _ treasury official might say we will means test — treasury official might say we will means test the _ treasury official might say we will means test the winter— treasury official might say we will means test the winter fuel - treasury official might say we will i means test the winter fuel allowance but we _ means test the winter fuel allowance but we will _ means test the winter fuel allowance but we will increase _ means test the winter fuel allowance but we will increase the _ means test the winter fuel allowance but we will increase the pension - but we will increase the pension credit _ but we will increase the pension credit it — but we will increase the pension credit. it seems _ but we will increase the pension credit. it seems that _ but we will increase the pension credit. it seems that the - but we will increase the pension. credit. it seems that the treasury may have — credit. it seems that the treasury may have to — credit. it seems that the treasury may have to do _ credit. it seems that the treasury may have to do some _ credit. it seems that the treasury. may have to do some backtracking, not on _ may have to do some backtracking, not on cancelling _ may have to do some backtracking, not on cancelling the _ may have to do some backtracking, not on cancelling the means - may have to do some backtracking, not on cancelling the means test i may have to do some backtracking, i not on cancelling the means test but on backfitting — not on cancelling the means test but on backfilling the _ not on cancelling the means test but on backfilling the pension— not on cancelling the means test but on backfilling the pension credit - on backfilling the pension credit generosity. _ on backfilling the pension credit generosity, making _ on backfilling the pension credit generosity, making pension - on backfilling the pension credit . generosity, making pension credit automatic — generosity, making pension credit automatic it _ generosity, making pension credit automatic. it is _ generosity, making pension credit automatic. it is crazy— generosity, making pension credit automatic. it is crazy that - generosity, making pension credit automatic. it is crazy that one - automatic. it is crazy that one third — automatic. it is crazy that one third of— automatic. it is crazy that one third of peogte _ automatic. it is crazy that one third of people don't - automatic. it is crazy that one third of people don't claim - automatic. it is crazy that one third of people don't claim it. | automatic. it is crazy that one - third of people don't claim it. also thinking _ third of people don't claim it. also thinking of— third of people don't claim it. also thinking of level— third of people don't claim it. also thinking of level might _ third of people don't claim it. also thinking of level might be. -

third of people don't claim it. also thinking of level might be. i- thinking of level might be. i suspect— thinking of level might be. i suspect that _ thinking of level might be. i suspect that is _ thinking of level might be. i suspect that is where - thinking of level might be. i. suspect that is where treasury thinking — suspect that is where treasury thinking is _ suspect that is where treasury thinking is going. _ suspect that is where treasury thinking is going. in— suspect that is where treasury thinking is going. in the - suspect that is where treasuryl thinking is going. in the budget suspect that is where treasury . thinking is going. in the budget i suspect— thinking is going. in the budget i suspect there _ thinking is going. in the budget i suspect there will— thinking is going. in the budget i suspect there will be _ thinking is going. in the budget i suspect there will be a _ thinking is going. in the budget i suspect there will be a package i thinking is going. in the budget i i suspect there will be a package but the question— suspect there will be a package but the question is— suspect there will be a package but the question is whether— suspect there will be a package but the question is whether the - suspect there will be a package but i the question is whether the governor can wait— the question is whether the governor can wait untit— the question is whether the governor can wait until then _ the question is whether the governor can wait until then and _ the question is whether the governor can wait until then and it _ the question is whether the governor can wait until then and it seems - can wait until then and it seems that the — can wait until then and it seems that the pressure _ can wait until then and it seems that the pressure is _ can wait until then and it seems that the pressure is on - can wait until then and it seems that the pressure is on them - can wait until then and it seems that the pressure is on them to| can wait until then and it seems i that the pressure is on them to do something — that the pressure is on them to do something earlier. _ that the pressure is on them to do something earlier. the— that the pressure is on them to do something earlier.— that the pressure is on them to do something earlier. the message from the labour government _ something earlier. the message from the labour government is _ something earlier. the message from the labour government is that - something earlier. the message from the labour government is that the - the labour government is that the reason they are having to do this is because of the black hole that they were left by the conservative government. are people buying that? the fundamental situation is that it is meant _ the fundamental situation is that it is meant to— the fundamental situation is that it is meant to be about money but i'm not convinced to save any money. they— not convinced to save any money. they say— not convinced to save any money. they say that it saves 1.5 billion. they say that it saves 1.5 billion. the question is, 880,000 people are eligible _ the question is, 880,000 people are eligible for _ the question is, 880,000 people are eligible for pension credit and don't — eligible for pension credit and don't claim it. the government say they witi— don't claim it. the government say they will do— don't claim it. the government say they will do a campaign to make sure those _ they will do a campaign to make sure those people take it up. it hasn't been _ those people take it up. it hasn't been successful over the last decade _ been successful over the last decade. ., . ., ., decade. correct. that would cost £2 billion. so decade. correct. that would cost £2 billion- 50 is — decade. correct. that would cost £2 billion. so is the _ decade. correct. that would cost £2 billion. so is the cost _ decade. correct. that would cost £2 billion. so is the cost to _ decade. correct. that would cost £2 billion. so is the cost to say - decade. correct. that would cost £2 billion. so is the cost to say that - billion. so is the cost to say that mone in billion. so is the cost to say that money in which _ billion. so is the cost to say that money in which case _ billion. so is the cost to say that money in which case this - billion. so is the cost to say that money in which case this is - money in which case this is pointless— money in which case this is pointless and leaves a lot of people very vulnerable? 0r pointless and leaves a lot of people very vulnerable? or is the purpose of the _ very vulnerable? or is the purpose of the campaign to be successful and therefore _ of the campaign to be successful and therefore to actually make the whole

task higher? this whole thing is extraordinary. terrible politics. reatty — extraordinary. terrible politics. really bad for the vulnerable and let's not — really bad for the vulnerable and let's not forget that energy prices are expected to rise in october and again— are expected to rise in october and again in— are expected to rise in october and again injanuary. you are looking at again are expected to rise in october and again in— are expected to rise in october and again injanuary. you are looking at pensioners— again injanuary. you are looking at pensioners who could have got up to £600 _ pensioners who could have got up to £600 tast— pensioners who could have got up to £600 last year now getting potentially nothing. that is absolutely brutal.— potentially nothing. that is absolutely brutal. potentially nothing. that is absolutel brutal. �*, ., ., absolutely brutal. let's have a look at the front — absolutely brutal. let's have a look at the front pages. _ absolutely brutal. let's have a look at the front pages. the _ absolutely brutal. let's have a look at the front pages. the i _ absolutely brutal. let's have a look at the front pages. the i leading i at the front pages. the i leading with keir starmer�*s visit to germany and france. starmer must give way on youth migration to get a softer brexit, sources claim. the daily mirror, brexit reset. elsewhere, farage, not a word on the boats crisis, in the daily express. any moment now, the sun. no cigarettes and alcohol. it is a play on a track by oasis. the sun newspaper say that they would be a ban on smoking in pub gardens. is this true? it

they would be a ban on smoking in pub gardens. is this true?- pub gardens. is this true? it looks like it and it _