until he tried his trick shot and fell. well, one error is forgiveable when you make 143. and who was that swiping sixes? gus atkinson, like ben stokes. england to 358—7. their day — because it was anotherjoe root day. joe wilson, bbc news, at lord's. time for a look at the weather. this programme continues on bbc one. kamala harris gives herfirst interview since the democratic race for president was upended six weeks ago — what does it tell us about how she'd govern?

the tory leadership contest is cranking up. four of the six candidates worked in the home office — a department and a leading think—tank says today failed to properly budget for asylum costs. kamala harris gives herfirst interview since the democratic race for president was upended six weeks ago. welcome to newsnight for your weeknightly interviews and insight. later — shoplifting. look at this footage from a couple who run a shop in tenby. today the british retail consortium said some stores are taking goods that have been stolen to order by shoplifters. more on that later. welcome to newsnight

for your weeknightly phil collins, former blair and starmer speechwriter, the political editor of the telegraph, ben riley—smith, and our own nick watt. kamala harris has done a media interview, her first since becoming the democrat candidate for president. you'll probably know she's been criticised for not doing any. 60 seconds of it has just been released and you'll see her pick for vice president, tim walz, by her side. she was responding to the criticism that she has shifted her position on the issues. the most important and most significant aspect of my policy perspective and decisions is values have not changed. you mention the green new deal. i have always believed, and i have worked on it, that the climate crisis is real, there is an urgent matter to which we should apply metric settings, including holding ourselves to deadlines around time. we did that with the inflation reduction act. we have set goals for the united states of america

and by extension the globe around when we should meet certain standards for reduction of greenhouse gas emissions, as an example. that value has not changed. my value around what we need to do to secure our border — that value has not changed. i spent two terms as attorney general of california, prosecuting transnational criminal organisations, violations of american laws regarding the illegal passage of guns, drugs and human beings across our border. my values have not changed. let's go live to washington and talk to democratic strategist ameshia cross. thank you for being with us. just to fill in some detail, in 2019, when she was running, she wanted to ban fracking and decriminalise illegal border crossings and she did not answer the question on cnn, does she have to explain to the american

public why she has changed her position on these issues? growth ha--ens position on these issues? growth happens in _ position on these issues? growth happens in policy _ position on these issues? growth happens in policy all _ position on these issues? growth happens in policy all the - position on these issues? growth happens in policy all the time - position on these issues? growth| happens in policy all the time and position on these issues? growth i happens in policy all the time and i am old enough to remember when former president barack 0bama was writing his book and he wanted civil unions protected but he did not go so far as to support gay marriage and we saw gay marriage not only become... this is not new to american politics, but we see is growth amongst individuals from previously held political ideologies to ones that meet the moment and the time and anyone who has been in politics long enough work for an elected leader knows this is how things work in the attacks on kamala harris our ill gotten and ignorant to the facts of how history has proven that elected officials on the left and right have had policies that have progressed over time due to changes in how americans look at political issues but also in the growth of that elected leader. it is

not necessarily _ growth of that elected leader. it is not necessarily attacks, but legitimate questions wanting the woman who want to be the next president to explain how she went from that to within four years the complete opposite. she from that to within four years the complete opposite.— from that to within four years the complete opposite. she is explaining and we will hear _ complete opposite. she is explaining and we will hear more _ complete opposite. she is explaining and we will hear more of _ complete opposite. she is explaining and we will hear more of that - and we will hear more of that explanation tonight but i take umbrage because they are attacks, we heard from the right attacks for quite some time since she emerged as vice president and since she is the democratic nominee for the ticket, these are things they do not hold accountable for leaders of their own party, who have adapted their political ideologies or their stances as well in time. that is not something new to american politics. attacks are not new. there are many americans who have very little idea about what kamala harris would do if she was elected. do you have any idea? ~ , ,., , she was elected. do you have any idea? ~ , ., ., ., ., , she was elected. do you have any

idea? absolutely, kamala harris has told us, idea? absolutely, kamala harris has told us. we — idea? absolutely, kamala harris has told us, we have _ idea? absolutely, kamala harris has told us, we have seen _ idea? absolutely, kamala harris has told us, we have seen the _ idea? absolutely, kamala harris has told us, we have seen the economic| told us, we have seen the economic agenda that allows first—time home—buyers to afford homes, the housing crisis issues have been a problem for some time in the pandemic exacerbated those things and we know she will work to reduce the cost per script and drugs and thatis the cost per script and drugs and that is notjust include those who are elderly or on medicare but individuals outside of that and we know she is fighting to protect our public education systems, the right was to get rid of the department of education, want to ensure that there is a harder pathway to access to education broadly and that means including shutting down public education and she want to make sure that when we talk about families, we put policy whether rhetoric is, making it more affordable to be able to have childcare and an affordable pathway to college education and the workforce. but allowing poor people do not have to choose between keeping the lights on and paying for

groceries or paying for life—saving care. she has made that clear and is very strategic and smart when it comes to reproductive rights. she was to ensure women are able to make those decisions on their own and they're not forced by government do not be able to have things like ivf and have the family they dreamt of. 0r having a hard time to actually have abortion care and services, those are things she has stood for, these are not in contest. phil collins, what _ these are not in contest. phil collins, what is _ these are not in contest. phil collins, what is the _ these are not in contest. phil collins, what is the strategy of kamala harris over the next few weeks? ., ' . , weeks? some of the differences in the thins weeks? some of the differences in the things she _ weeks? some of the differences in the things she has _ weeks? some of the differences in the things she has said _ weeks? some of the differences in the things she has said now - weeks? some of the differences in the things she has said now from | the things she has said now from what _ the things she has said now from what you — the things she has said now from what you said before are explained by the _ what you said before are explained by the fact — what you said before are explained by the fact she has a different audience _ by the fact she has a different audience and some of those commitments were made when the only audience _ commitments were made when the only audience was the democrat party when she was_ audience was the democrat party when she was trying to beat not only and she was trying to beat not only and she is— she was trying to beat not only and she is now— she was trying to beat not only and she is now running for the country and that— she is now running for the country and that is— she is now running for the country and that is a — she is now running for the country and that is a standard manoeuvre that everyone in politics makes and that everyone in politics makes and that is— that everyone in politics makes and

that is reasonable and the questions are perfectly reasonable because that is— are perfectly reasonable because that is standard politics but the strategy. — that is standard politics but the strategy, one thing she must wonder about— strategy, one thing she must wonder about is— strategy, one thing she must wonder about is she — strategy, one thing she must wonder about is she is a very unusual election— about is she is a very unusual election in— about is she is a very unusual election in the sense she is part running — election in the sense she is part running on _ election in the sense she is part running on a record which is partly hers _ running on a record which is partly hers as _ running on a record which is partly hers as vice — running on a record which is partly hers. as vice president. she referenced the inflation reduction act in_ referenced the inflation reduction act in the — referenced the inflation reduction act in the clip we saw and she has a strategic— act in the clip we saw and she has a strategic decision to make about how hard she _ strategic decision to make about how hard she runs on the record ofjoe biden— hard she runs on the record ofjoe biden and — hard she runs on the record ofjoe biden and how hard she owns that or want to— biden and how hard she owns that or want to differentiate herself from that and — want to differentiate herself from that and she will do both, you heard some _ that and she will do both, you heard some of— that and she will do both, you heard some of the — that and she will do both, you heard some of the things that kamala harris, — some of the things that kamala harris, they are her issues, like the abortion issues, and things like climate _ the abortion issues, and things like climate change and the jobs programmes which she can borrow from the ministration of which she has been _ the ministration of which she has been vice — the ministration of which she has been vice president and has something to run on so she has a

very strange strategic decision to make _ very strange strategic decision to make which is really unusual in american — make which is really unusual in american politics.— make which is really unusual in american politics. ben, you were coverin: american politics. ben, you were covering when — american politics. ben, you were covering when she _ american politics. ben, you were covering when she ran _ american politics. ben, you were covering when she ran in 2019, i covering when she ran in 2019, she did not get through to 2020, how much has she changed? she did not get through to 2020, how much has she changed?— much has she changed? she took ositions much has she changed? she took positions to _ much has she changed? she took positions to the _ much has she changed? she took positions to the left of _ positions to the left of the democratic— positions to the left of the democratic spectrum to i positions to the left of the - democratic spectrum to win the race and it— democratic spectrum to win the race and it was funny— democratic spectrum to win the race and it was funny because _ democratic spectrum to win the race and it was funny because a - democratic spectrum to win the race and it was funny because a work- democratic spectrum to win the race and it was funny because a work two huge _ and it was funny because a work two huge figures, — and it was funny because a work two huge figures, bernie _ and it was funny because a work two huge figures, bernie sanders, - and it was funny because a work two huge figures, bernie sanders, a - huge figures, bernie sanders, a well-known_ huge figures, bernie sanders, a well—known brand, socialist, . huge figures, bernie sanders, a| well—known brand, socialist, joe biden, _ well—known brand, socialist, joe biden, a — well—known brand, socialist, joe biden, a very— well—known brand, socialist, joe biden, a very prominent - well— known brand, socialist, joe . biden, a very prominent moderate well— known brand, socialist, joe - biden, a very prominent moderate and every other— biden, a very prominent moderate and every other candidate _ biden, a very prominent moderate and every other candidate was _ every other candidate was wavering in between and _ every other candidate was wavering in between and she took— every other candidate was wavering in between and she took the - every other candidate was wavering in between and she took the part. in between and she took the part that was— in between and she took the part that was leaning _ in between and she took the part that was leaning towards - in between and she took the part that was leaning towards berniel that was leaning towards bernie sanders. — that was leaning towards bernie sanders. she _ that was leaning towards bernie sanders, she supported - that was leaning towards bernie i sanders, she supported medicare that was leaning towards bernie - sanders, she supported medicare for all in a white — sanders, she supported medicare for all in a while and _ sanders, she supported medicare for all in a while and then ditch - all in a while and then ditch that and she — all in a while and then ditch that and she did _ all in a while and then ditch that and she did not _ all in a while and then ditch that and she did not even _ all in a while and then ditch that and she did not even make - all in a while and then ditch that and she did not even make the. all in a while and then ditch that. and she did not even make the first state _ and she did not even make the first state voting — and she did not even make the first state voting in _ and she did not even make the first state voting in the _ and she did not even make the first state voting in the primary. - and she did not even make the first state voting in the primary. now. and she did not even make the firstl state voting in the primary. now she stays _ state voting in the primary. now she stays moderate _ state voting in the primary. now she stays moderate and _ state voting in the primary. now she stays moderate and tries _ state voting in the primary. now she stays moderate and tries to - state voting in the primary. now she stays moderate and tries to take onl stays moderate and tries to take on some of— stays moderate and tries to take on some of that biden _ stays moderate and tries to take on . some of that biden moderation. iirilt�*hait some of that biden moderation. what could be a weakness _ some of that biden moderation. could be a weakness is at kamala harris is not really known could be a strength which is because she has not been known until then, people do not been known until then, people do not know her when she had these positions she has moved from and that not being known appears to be

pulling off something remarkable, she is the incumbent vice president and yet she is a change candidate, she is notjoe biden or donald trump, there was a not an appetite for the two of those and that seems to be why she is upending the campaign. to be why she is upending the campaign-— to be why she is upending the camuain. ., . . , campaign. you saw in that clip, with tim walz, the vice _ campaign. you saw in that clip, with tim walz, the vice presidential- tim walz, the vice presidential clip, he has his own record to run on, a record which is quite satisfying to democrats so i think he was a smart pick for her because she has two records to run on in this campaign, which again is unusual. �* , ., ,, unusual. and the nebraskan homespun charm from tim — unusual. and the nebraskan homespun charm from tim walz, _ unusual. and the nebraskan homespun charm from tim walz, talking - unusual. and the nebraskan homespun charm from tim walz, talking about. charm from tim walz, talking about the importance of guttering. it is funny, very accessible. bind the importance of guttering. it is funny, very accessible.— the importance of guttering. it is funny, very accessible. and as the coach, funny, very accessible. and as the coach. talking _ funny, very accessible. and as the coach, talking about _ funny, very accessible. and as the coach, talking about how- funny, very accessible. and as the coach, talking about how he - funny, very accessible. and as the coach, talking about how he used| funny, very accessible. and as the l coach, talking about how he used to be the coach. coach, talking about how he used to be the coach-— be the coach. people are also smart enou:h in be the coach. people are also smart enough in the _ be the coach. people are also smart enough in the country _ be the coach. people are also smart enough in the country to _ be the coach. people are also smart enough in the country to make - be the coach. people are also smart enough in the country to make the i enough in the country to make the distinction — enough in the country to make the distinction between the role of somebody who sets aside the president but does not make policy decisions, — president but does not make policy

decisions, the governor does, tim walz, _ decisions, the governor does, tim waiz. if— decisions, the governor does, tim waiz. if you — decisions, the governor does, tim walz, if you want to see what kamala harris _ walz, if you want to see what kamala harris stands on certain issues, took at — harris stands on certain issues, look at her record in the smartest thing _ look at her record in the smartest thing is to— look at her record in the smartest thing is to look at what you try to do when — thing is to look at what you try to do when she was a g in california, she had _ do when she was a g in california, she had a significant leadership role where she directly make decisions and as vice president but is not _ decisions and as vice president but is not your— decisions and as vice president but is not your role.— is not your role. there is a famous interview with lester _ is not your role. there is a famous interview with lester holt from - interview with lester holt from nbc and i will play that now for the british audience.— and i will play that now for the british audience. ., ., ., , , british audience. you have any plans to visit the borough? _ british audience. you have any plans to visit the borough? i am _ to visit the borough? i am in guatemala _ to visit the borough? i am in guatemala today, at - to visit the borough? i am in guatemala today, at some l to visit the borough? i am in - guatemala today, at some point, we are going _ guatemala today, at some point, we are going to— guatemala today, at some point, we are going to the border, this whole thing _ are going to the border, this whole thing about the border, we have been to the _ thing about the border, we have been to the border, we have been to the border~ _ to the border, we have been to the border. ., . �* to the border, we have been to the border. ., ., �* , ., border. you haven't been to the border? and — border. you haven't been to the border? and i _ border. you haven't been to the border? and i haven't _ border. you haven't been to the border? and i haven't been - border. you haven't been to the border? and i haven't been to l border? and i haven't been to euro e. border? and i haven't been to europe- i _ border? and i haven't been to europe. i don't _ border? and i haven't been to europe. i don't understand . border? and i haven't been to| europe. i don't understand the border? and i haven't been to - europe. i don't understand the point you are _ europe. i don't understand the point you are making.

europe. i don't understand the point you are making-— you are making. every single one of us makes mistakes _ you are making. every single one of us makes mistakes and _ you are making. every single one of us makes mistakes and slip-ups - you are making. every single one of| us makes mistakes and slip-ups but us makes mistakes and slip—ups but will her advisers be worried about stuff like that over the coming weeks? i stuff like that over the coming weeks? ~ ., stuff like that over the coming weeks? ~' . . . . stuff like that over the coming weeks? ,, . ., .. ., , , weeks? i think that kamala harris is rimed weeks? i think that kamala harris is primed and — weeks? i think that kamala harris is primed and ready, _ weeks? i think that kamala harris is primed and ready, she _ weeks? i think that kamala harris is primed and ready, she is _ weeks? i think that kamala harris is primed and ready, she is having - weeks? i think that kamala harris is primed and ready, she is having a i primed and ready, she is having a sit down today that is going to be out within the next couple of hours and she is going to have a debate in the next couple of weeks, she has had great advisers and she has developed a lot over the past four years. this is someone charting her own course and people have to recognise the vice president does not make policy decisions, she is not make policy decisions, she is not the border tsar other people of the answer, that question should have been directed president biden, he has people in the cabinet who are in charge of the work of maintaining and creating policy for the border and creating policy for the border and that person is not kamala harris. . . ,, ., , harris. let the audience know, she was tasked —

harris. let the audience know, she was tasked with _ harris. let the audience know, she was tasked with tackling _ harris. let the audience know, she was tasked with tackling the - harris. let the audience know, shei was tasked with tackling the issues that were leading to those crossings. we will have you back if you come back, thank you so much for joining us. ameshia cross, democratic strategist. next, shoplifting. have a look at this. a former prolific shoplifter in leeds has told the bbcjust how much theft he alone was responsible for over the years and where those stolen goods went. box sets, cosmetics, handbags, a big box of lego can be £100. brute box sets, cosmetics, handbags, a big box of lego can be £100.— box of lego can be £100. we have stolen tens _ box of lego can be £100. we have stolen tens of— box of lego can be £100. we have stolen tens of thousands - box of lego can be £100. we have stolen tens of thousands of - box of lego can be £100. we have i stolen tens of thousands of pounds? i am ashamed to say. ross only made money of people were willing to buy stolen goods. money of people were willing to buy stolen goods-— money of people were willing to buy stolen noods. ., , . , ., , stolen goods. honey cheese, washing tablets and liquid, _ stolen goods. honey cheese, washing tablets and liquid, if _ stolen goods. honey cheese, washing tablets and liquid, if you _ stolen goods. honey cheese, washing tablets and liquid, if you can. - tablets and liquid, if you can. messages from the middleman, daily requests to steal to order and more surprisingly, his customers included other shops, across the city. let's talk to vince

and fiona malone, who run a post office and convenience store in tenby. how much do you estimate you are losing to shoplifting every year? we are losing to shoplifting every year? - are losing, last year we lost £26,000 to shoplifting, we have inventory control so we know that is what we have lost. 26,000. £500 a week. that is the amount of money that will get us another member of staff. it is a horrific number that when we work it out, it led us to say we have to do something different, we have to break this and do things that will make our business profitable again. you have kindly given — business profitable again. you have kindly given us _ business profitable again. you have kindly given us some _ business profitable again. you have kindly given us some of _ business profitable again. you have kindly given us some of the - business profitable again. you have kindly given us some of the cctv i kindly given us some of the cctv footage from your cameras which we will show to the audience. how often does this kind of stuff happen? this is so brazen. i does this kind of stuff happen? this is so brazen-—

is so brazen. i cannot believe it. it is is so brazen. i cannot believe it. it is happening _ is so brazen. i cannot believe it. it is happening sometimes - is so brazen. i cannot believe it. it is happening sometimes on i is so brazen. i cannot believe it. it is happening sometimes on a | is so brazen. i cannot believe it. - it is happening sometimes on a daily basis _ it is happening sometimes on a daily basis it— it is happening sometimes on a daily basis it is— it is happening sometimes on a daily basis. it is really frustrating for us. basis. it is really frustrating for us but— basis. it is really frustrating for us but we _ basis. it is really frustrating for us. but we decided to do was put in some _ us. but we decided to do was put in some al _ us. but we decided to do was put in some ai technology and it manages people _ some ai technology and it manages people as _ some ai technology and it manages people as they move around the shop and if— people as they move around the shop and if they— people as they move around the shop and if they make a suspicious gesture, _ and if they make a suspicious gesture, it brings up a little video on my— gesture, it brings up a little video on my phone and then immediately we can take _ on my phone and then immediately we can take action. but it is happening too often _ can take action. but it is happening too often and it is not fair. we are not the _ too often and it is not fair. we are not the richest people in the world. we run _ not the richest people in the world. we run the — not the richest people in the world. we run the business for the community. we are a post office as welt _ community. we are a post office as welt it— community. we are a post office as welt if we — community. we are a post office as well. if we were to close, the town would _ well. if we were to close, the town would have — well. if we were to close, the town would have no to do its banking. that _ would have no to do its banking. that is _ would have no to do its banking. that is not — would have no to do its banking. that is not fair. it is not sustainable for us to keep taking on the losses — how many how many cameras how many cameras did you put up last year? yea r? we year? we are a small shop, 1500 square

feet. we have 32 cameras in the building. and since you put those on, has shoplifting reduced? we have seen a marked decrease. we have been having to —— we have been able to identify shoplifting better. the trouble we are having is, we are finding the shoplifters, passing out information on to the police, but these people are then coming back again and again stop we're not seeing that there are any consequences for their actions, and this is what we would to see. as a father, with my children, i say to them, there is consequences to your actions, and we are not seeing that. so we have got the technology there. we can identify when problems are happening, and when you see the videos, some of these people are really brazen. it doesn't matter what you do, they are going out of the building. so we need to look at how we as a society, as an industry, deal with this. why do you think it is happening, fiona? i think it is becoming too easy for

people. _ i think it is becoming too easy for people, and people are thinking it is a victimless crime. it is not a victimless _ is a victimless crime. it is not a victimless crime. stealing from any shop. _ victimless crime. stealing from any shop. no _ victimless crime. stealing from any shop, no matter the size, has an impact _ shop, no matter the size, has an impact on — shop, no matter the size, has an impact on staff, on prices, and it could _ impact on staff, on prices, and it could have — impact on staff, on prices, and it could have a _ impact on staff, on prices, and it could have a potential big impact on the local— could have a potential big impact on the local community. and _ the local community. and also, there was an occasion, vince, when it had an impact on you notjust financially, but vince, when it had an impact on you not just financially, but somebody hit you? you were assaulted? yes, that was two weeks ago. we had a gentleman in who had stolen in the morning, we caught him on the camera, but were too slow to catch on. he came back midday and stole again. fiona had identified him. i heard there was a real commotion of the shop floor and came running out, and voices were raised stop there was bad language used, and my number one aim then was to make sure that i

defuse the situation. i got this individual out of our building. then he said, why are you doing this? it is not hurting anybody. and the anger that builds up inside me, and the anger that builds up inside fiona, it was a case of saying, well, yes, it is our business, this is our livelihood, every pound you steal his money taken away from my children as well. but i took him outside the shop and i said to him, you are banned because you are shoplifting. he took umbrage to that and took a swing, glanced my chin and took a swing, glanced my chin and hit me on the shoulder. i had my headset on stop that fell off. we called the police, we reported the assault. they turned up fairly quickly and said all the right things, but as far as i'm aware... did they catch him? he is still at large. he is banned from my shop, but that doesn't mean he won't come

back. 0r but that doesn't mean he won't come back. or he will be doing it somewhere else. somewhere else. home secretary yvette cooper has previously promised to get rid of this 2012 , ., ., ., , ., this 2012 legislation to ensure that thefts under _ this 2012 legislation to ensure that thefts under £200 _ this 2012 legislation to ensure that thefts under £200 were _ this 2012 legislation to ensure that thefts under £200 were subject i this 2012 legislation to ensure that thefts under £200 were subject to | thefts under £200 were subject to less serious punishments. presumably you would support that? absolutely. the frustration for us is, let's— absolutely. the frustration for us is, let's say— absolutely. the frustration for us is, let's say for example we have a number— is, let's say for example we have a number of— is, let's say for example we have a number of children that come in shoplifting if they are allowed to 'ust shoplifting if they are allowed to just get— shoplifting if they are allowed to just get away with it, they come back— just get away with it, they come back in— just get away with it, they come back in again and get away with it, they think— back in again and get away with it, they think it is almost there right, that is— they think it is almost there right, that is ok — they think it is almost there right, that is ok to do, and i think there should _ that is ok to do, and i think there should be — that is ok to do, and i think there should be consequences for people's actions _ actions. thank you very actions. — thank you very much for talking to us this evening. thanks for being with us. thank you. enqueue. next week, tory mps begin to vote in the contest to select their new leader. they have six candidates to choose from. the six will eventually be whittled down to two — and that's when tory party members will choose the winner. nick, the contest seems to have been pretty low—key

over the summer months. yes, but with that voting next week, the candidates are now starting to pop up. tomorrow it will be priti patel, and today tom tugendhat delivered a speech on public services. i was there. i began by suggesting that his speech sounded a bit like david cameron's "big society". i then asked tom tugendhat whether he was prepared to deliver uncomfortable hard truths to his party after its election defeat if he became leader. 0ur party is absolutely committed to the kind _ 0ur party is absolutely committed to the kind of— 0ur party is absolutely committed to the kind of vision i am setting out, because _ the kind of vision i am setting out, because conservativism is fundamentally about blogging. you guote _ fundamentally about blogging. you quote david cameron correctly, but you could _ quote david cameron correctly, but you could also quote burke, baldwin, disraeli. _ you could also quote burke, baldwin, disraeli, churchill, mcmillan or thatcher, — disraeli, churchill, mcmillan or thatcher, or conservative thinkers, all conservative leaders have subscribed to a vision that understands that the purpose of society— understands that the purpose of society and the purpose of the state are aligned but not the same.

interestingly, that was a pretty low wattage speech by a surprisingly nervous tom tugendhat. he stood in the last leadership campaign, so you would think it would be more confident, but overall, the campaign is pretty low powered. i have done enough of these campaigns in the past, campaigns to choose an opposition leader, and usually there is more interest. not in this one. and interestingly, two thirds of conservative mps, 121 in all, have not declared who they are supporting. when you talk to the campaigns, they admit my person is not storming ahead, and that mps think they have strengths but also weaknesses. is anyone storming ahead, phil collins? where do you feel the momentum is? i don't think there is very much yet _ idon't think there is very much yet it— idon't think there is very much yet it has— i don't think there is very much yet. it has barely got started, really — yet. it has barely got started, really. maybe it will get started, or maybe — really. maybe it will get started, or maybe it never will. maybe it is one of— or maybe it never will. maybe it is one of those contests that were just sort of _ one of those contests that were just sort of starter and never quite stutter— sort of starter and never quite stutter and delight. you must remember, this is not necessarily the most —

remember, this is not necessarily the most attractive job. i don't mean — the most attractive job. i don't meanjust_ the most attractive job. i don't meanjust leaving the the most attractive job. i don't mean just leaving the tory party, which _ mean just leaving the tory party, which i _ mean just leaving the tory party, which i don't regard as attractive ever, _ which i don't regard as attractive ever. but— which i don't regard as attractive ever, but it's not an attractive job when _ ever, but it's not an attractive job when you — ever, but it's not an attractive job when you are 160 seats behind. it when you are160 seats behind. it might— when you are 160 seats behind. it might be — when you are 160 seats behind. it might be a — when you are 160 seats behind. it might be a good one to miss out on. there _ might be a good one to miss out on. there is— might be a good one to miss out on. there is not— might be a good one to miss out on. there is not a — might be a good one to miss out on. there is not a great sense of excitement. i also think the party has been — excitement. i also think the party has been hollowed out. a lot of good people _ has been hollowed out. a lot of good people have left, partly because of the brexit— people have left, partly because of the brexit shenanigans and then the election— the brexit shenanigans and then the election defeat. i'm not sure it is a very— election defeat. i'm not sure it is a very high— election defeat. i'm not sure it is a very high quality field in all honesty _ a very high quality field in all honesty. so from a labour party point _ honesty. so from a labour party point of — honesty. so from a labour party point of view, i'm not particularly fearful— point of view, i'm not particularly fearful of— point of view, i'm not particularly fearful of any of these candidates. what _ fearful of any of these candidates. what insight do you have, then, in terms of who might win the thing? i'm not asking you to predict, but what do you think iraq are one of the most fascinating dynamics is, if you think about it, they are trying to pick someone to be opposition leader in to pick someone to be opposition leade :: :: , ., leader in the 20 20s and prime minister into _ leader in the 20 20s and prime minister into the _ leader in the 20 20s and prime minister into the 20 _ leader in the 20 20s and prime minister into the 20 30s, - leader in the 20 20s and prime minister into the 20 30s, so i l leader in the 20 20s and prime - minister into the 20 30s, so i think minister into the 20 305, so i think there _ minister into the 20 305, so i think there might — mini5ter into the 20 305, so i think there might be _ mini5ter into the 20 305, so i think there might be a _ mini5ter into the 20 305, so i think there might be a bit _ mini5ter into the 20 305, so i think there might be a bit of— mini5ter into the 20 305, so i think there might be a bit of a _ there might be a bit of a generational— there might be a bit of a generational thing - there might be a bit of a generational thing here. j generational thing here. james _ generational thing here. jame5 cleverly, - generational thing here. jame5 cleverly, priti - generational thing here. i jame5 cleverly, priti patel, generational thing here. - jame5 cleverly, priti patel, big senior— jame5 cleverly, priti patel, big 5eniorfigure5_ jame5 cleverly, priti patel, big senior figures in— jame5 cleverly, priti patel, big senior figures in the _ jame5 cleverly, priti patel, big senior figures in the last - senior figures in the last government, _ 5enior figures in the last government, but- senior figures in the last government, but they i senior figures in the last - government, but they might be senior figures in the last _ government, but they might be seen as kind _ government, but they might be seen as kind of— government, but they might be seen as kind of the — government, but they might be seen as kind of the older, _ government, but they might be seen as kind of the older, more _ government, but they might be seen as kind of the older, more senior- as kind of the older, more senior figures _ as kind of the older, more senior figures now, and _ as kind of the older, more senior figures now, and whether- as kind of the older, more senior figures now, and whether they. as kind of the older, more senior. figures now, and whether they have figure5 now, and whether they have

the for— figure5 now, and whether they have the for what — figure5 now, and whether they have the for what they— figure5 now, and whether they have the for what they want _ figure5 now, and whether they have the for what they want to _ figure5 now, and whether they have the for what they want to do. - figure5 now, and whether they have the for what they want to do. but i the for what they want to do. but some _ the for what they want to do. but some of— the for what they want to do. but some of these _ the for what they want to do. but some of these younger— the for what they want to do. butl some of these younger candidates like kemi — some of these younger candidates like kemi badenoch, _ some of these younger candidates like kemi badenoch, robert- some of these younger candidates like kemi badenoch, robertjen. some of these younger candidates i like kemi badenoch, robertjen rick and tom _ like kemi badenoch, robertjen rick and tom tugendhat _ like kemi badenoch, robertjen rick and tom tugendhat might _ like kemi badenoch, robertjen rick and tom tugendhat might have - like kemi badenoch, robertjen rick and tom tugendhat might have thel and tom tugendhat might have the feeling _ and tom tugendhat might have the feeling they— and tom tugendhat might have the feeling they have _ and tom tugendhat might have the feeling they have the _ and tom tugendhat might have the feeling they have the generation i and tom tugendhat might have the feeling they have the generation of| feeling they have the generation of tories _ feeling they have the generation of tories coming _ feeling they have the generation of torie5 coming through. _ torie5 coming through. at least— torie5 coming through. at least four— torie5 coming through. at least four of - torie5 coming through. at least four of the - torie5 coming through. j at least four of the six, torie5 coming through. - at least four of the six, three of the four, with responsibility in the home office, where the ifs have revealed today there was very poor budgeting over the last four years on asylum costs. rachel reeves could point to that to say, look, itold rachel reeves could point to that to say, look, i told you rachel reeves could point to that to say, look, itold you i rachel reeves could point to that to say, look, i told you i didn't know the end year pressures. absolutely. i think the asylum policy — absolutely. i think the asylum policy and the rwanda policy over the last _ policy and the rwanda policy over the last few years as one of the great _ the last few years as one of the great failure5 the last few years as one of the great failures of 5tatecraft over the last — great failures of 5tatecraft over the last decade. that— the last decade. that is priti patel, robertjen reckon james cleverly. absolutely, it is, they are serious weakne55e5. they all have serious weakne55e5, the5e candidates, but that is— weakne55e5, the5e candidates, but that is a _ weakne55e5, the5e candidates, but that is a crucial one. however, you must _ that is a crucial one. however, you must be _ that is a crucial one. however, you must be careful here, because the particular— must be careful here, because the particular electorate they are playing — particular electorate they are playing to is not me, it is the

conservative members of parliament, in the _ con5ervative members of parliament, in the first— conservative members of parliament, in the first instance, and then for two of— in the first instance, and then for two of them, the conservative membership, so they don't share the view i _ membership, so they don't share the view i have _ membership, so they don't share the view i have just expre55ed, nece55arily, on that question. but i think— nece55arily, on that question. but i think it _ nece55arily, on that question. but i think it reveals the poverty of the field, _ think it reveals the poverty of the field, because they were people responsible for quite 5eriou5 failures, _ responsible for quite 5eriou5 failures, and there is always the thing _ failures, and there is always the thing with— failures, and there is always the thing with parties who have suffered a very— thing with parties who have suffered a very bad _ thing with parties who have suffered a very bad defeat, they really want to indulge — a very bad defeat, they really want to indulge themselves. the labour party— to indulge themselves. the labour party was— to indulge themselves. the labour party was gets like this when it loses — party was gets like this when it loses it— party was gets like this when it loses. it wants to be itself, to relax, — loses. it wants to be itself, to relax, to _ loses. it wants to be itself, to relax, to be freed of the obligations and compromises of governments and just be itself again — governments and just be itself again. and the labour party, when it lost badly, _ again. and the labour party, when it lost badly, went to ed miliband, it moved _ lost badly, went to ed miliband, it moved to— lost badly, went to ed miliband, it moved to the left. it then had a second — moved to the left. it then had a second go— moved to the left. it then had a second go and went properly to the left and _ second go and went properly to the left and the jeremy corbyn, and there _ left and the jeremy corbyn, and there mightjust be a sort of paradoxical wish to really, really io paradoxical wish to really, really go for— paradoxical wish to really, really go for it. — paradoxical wish to really, really go for it, let's really be properly comfortably right—wing for a bit. we'll— comfortably right—wing for a bit. we'll lose — comfortably right—wing for a bit. we'll lose horribly, but it doesn't matter. — we'll lose horribly, but it doesn't matter, because we'll enjoy ourselves, and there mightjust be a case for— ourselves, and there mightjust be a case for doing that, in a funny way, because _ case for doing that, in a funny way, because if— case for doing that, in a funny way, because if you do get the more centrist — because if you do get the more centrist leader who then inherits an

enormous _ centrist leader who then inherits an enormous deficit in parliament, they might— enormous deficit in parliament, they might lose _ enormous deficit in parliament, they might lose and then the party will blame _ might lose and then the party will blame them for it, and then go to the right — blame them for it, and then go to the right i— blame them for it, and then go to the riuht. ~ i. , the right. i think if you were being sliuhtl the right. i think if you were being slightly more _ the right. i think if you were being slightly more sympathetic- the right. i think if you were being slightly more sympathetic to - the right. i think if you were being slightly more sympathetic to the l slightly more sympathetic to the tories, _ slightly more sympathetic to the tories, you — slightly more sympathetic to the tories, you would _ slightly more sympathetic to the tories, you would say— slightly more sympathetic to the tories, you would say two - slightly more sympathetic to the j tories, you would say two things slightly more sympathetic to the . tories, you would say two things in their— tories, you would say two things in their favour~ — their favour. politics - their favour. politics is i their favour. - politics is unbelievably their favour. _ politics is unbelievably volatile their favor — politics is unbelievably volatile at the moment _ politics is unbelievably volatile at the moment. not— politics is unbelievably volatile at the moment. not many- politics is unbelievably volatile at the moment. not many people i politics is unbelievably volatile at - the moment. not many people would have predicted, — the moment. not many people would have predicted, not— the moment. not many people would have predicted, not that _ the moment. not many people would have predicted, not that you - the moment. not many people would have predicted, not that you are - have predicted, not that you are saying _ have predicted, not that you are saying you — have predicted, not that you are saying you did, _ have predicted, not that you are saying you did, when— have predicted, not that you are saying you did, when boris- have predicted, not that you are i saying you did, when borisjohnson -ot saying you did, when borisjohnson got the _ saying you did, when borisjohnson got the majority, _ saying you did, when borisjohnson got the majority, that _ saying you did, when borisjohnson got the majority, that they - saying you did, when borisjohnson got the majority, that they would i got the majority, that they would lose five — got the majority, that they would lose five years _ got the majority, that they would lose five years later. _ got the majority, that they would lose five years later. in _ got the majority, that they would lose five years later. in the - got the majority, that they would lose five years later. in the party| lose five years later. in the party has an _ lose five years later. in the party has an unbelievable _ lose five years later. in the party has an unbelievable ability - lose five years later. in the party has an unbelievable ability to - has an unbelievable ability to search — has an unbelievable ability to search the _ has an unbelievable ability to search. the paperback- has an unbelievable ability to| search. the paperback version has an unbelievable ability to - search. the paperback version of my book is— search. the paperback version of my book is out— search. the paperback version of my book is out today, _ search. the paperback version of my book is out today, what _ search. the paperback version of my book is out today, what about - search. the paperback version of my book is out today, what about the i book is out today, what about the tory government. _ book is out today, what about the tory government. five _ book is out today, what about the tory government. five different i tory government. five different times, — tory government. five different times, they— tory government. five different times, they managed _ tory government. five different times, they managed to- tory government. five different times, they managed to switchl tory government. five different - times, they managed to switch prime minister. _ times, they managed to switch prime minister. change _ times, they managed to switch prime minister, change what _ times, they managed to switch prime minister, change what they— times, they managed to switch prime minister, change what they believed i minister, change what they believed and be _ minister, change what they believed and be a _ minister, change what they believed and be a party— minister, change what they believed and be a party that— minister, change what they believed and be a party that was _ minister, change what they believed and be a party that was determined i and be a party that was determined to defeat— and be a party that was determined to defeat brexit, _ and be a party that was determined to defeat brexit, david _ and be a party that was determined to defeat brexit, david cameron's. to defeat brexit, david cameron's government. _ to defeat brexit, david cameron's government, then _ to defeat brexit, david cameron's government, then when - to defeat brexit, david cameron's government, then when it - to defeat brexit, david cameron's government, then when it was . government, then when it was determined _ government, then when it was determined to _ government, then when it was determined to deliver- government, then when it was determined to deliver it, - government, then when it was determined to deliver it, so i i government, then when it was - determined to deliver it, so i would not underestimate _ determined to deliver it, so i would not underestimate the _ determined to deliver it, so i would not underestimate the tory - determined to deliver it, so i would not underestimate the tory ability i not underestimate the tory ability to change — not underestimate the tory ability to change and _ not underestimate the tory ability to change and shift _ not underestimate the tory ability to change and shift what - not underestimate the tory ability to change and shift what they - not underestimate the tory ability to change and shift what they arei to change and shift what they are all about — all about. do - all about. do you i all about. i do you know all about. - do you know what all about. _ do you know what is at about. — do you know what is interesting? i detect a bit more humility from these leaders then we got from william hague in 1997 and ed miliband in 2010, so with william hague, his view was, we were in a

bad way, anyone could have won that, the pendulum will swing and we will be back soon, and he discovered to his cost how deep that win was in 1997 by labour, and as you say, ed miliband thought, if only we had been properly of my view and not have that interruption, it would have that interruption, it would have been fine. the sheer scale of this tory defeat means they are acknowledging that they are facing an absolutely or mighty mountain to climb. the big challenge for them is what to do about nigel farage. do they embrace him or repel him? that's the fundamental question. i that's the fundamental question. i agree _ that's the fundamental question. i agree with that. it will be interesting what kind of conservative party they want to be, commonly — conservative party they want to be, commonly because as you say, there have commonly because as you 5ay, there have been— commonly because as you say, there have been a — commonly because as you say, there have been a number of different conservative party is available over the last _ conservative party is available over the last few years, and tom tugendhat did a long litany of references of previous conservatives, and i'm very intrigued _ conservatives, and i'm very intrigued where they land on that. each of— intrigued where they land on that. each of the candidates in a way different— each of the candidates in a way different strand of conservatism, so underneath — different strand of conservatism, so underneath the practical politics, there _ underneath the practical politics, there is— underneath the practical politics, there is a — underneath the practical politics, there is a philosophical question.

you want — there is a philosophical question. you want to talk about the obr? well, we know how to have fun at newsnight! we have been looking at this report. can i just say, this report. can ijust say, we actually do know how to have fun?! from the fiscal watchdog, the office for budget responsible to, which is being given even greater powers by rachel reeves, and bloomberg are picking up on this and saying it is laying out the case for a public investment splurge, because it is talking about the benefits of long—term investment. it says that if you invest 1% of gdp, you get a hit to the economy of 0.5% over five years, but if you do it over the longer term, years, but if you do it over the longerterm, it years, but if you do it over the longer term, it snowballs and mounts up longer term, it snowballs and mounts up and up and up and up and you get to 2.5% over15 years, up and up and up and up and you get to 2.5% over 15 years, and essentially what bloomberg are saying is, this is raising questions about rachel reeves' fiscal rule, which is that debt has to be falling as a share of gdp over the five year period. that is a constraint and they are saying, should you go back to the old gordon brown rule, which

is that you don't eventually borrow for day—to—day, but you can borrow to invest, and he didn't have that five year straitjacket, in the treasury this evening, they will be very careful, because they are moving towards a budget, but they are saying that in a big lecture rachel reeves did before she became chancellor, she did say she was in favour of borrowing to invest. her planners, like gordon brown, you don't borrow for day—to—day, and the ideas, you then have the rest of that part then to borrow from. what do you think? does that open up another attack lanky wreck? the problem rachel reeves has is, they have — the problem rachel reeves has is, they have put — the problem rachel reeves has is, they have put so _ the problem rachel reeves has is, they have put so much _ the problem rachel reeves has is, they have put so much of - the problem rachel reeves has is, they have put so much of their- they have put so much of their economic— they have put so much of their economic credibility— they have put so much of their economic credibility about - they have put so much of their. economic credibility about being they have put so much of their- economic credibility about being the iron chancellor— economic credibility about being the iron chancellor with _ economic credibility about being the iron chancellor with iron, _ economic credibility about being the iron chancellor with iron, firm - iron chancellor with iron, firm discipline _ iron chancellor with iron, firm discipline on _ iron chancellor with iron, firm discipline on the _ iron chancellor with iron, firm discipline on the fiscal- iron chancellor with iron, firm discipline on the fiscal rules, i iron chancellor with iron, firm i discipline on the fiscal rules, and they've _ discipline on the fiscal rules, and they've got — discipline on the fiscal rules, and they've got this _ discipline on the fiscal rules, and they've got this thing _ discipline on the fiscal rules, and they've got this thing that - discipline on the fiscal rules, and they've got this thing that has i discipline on the fiscal rules, and i they've got this thing that has come in five _ they've got this thing that has come in five years — they've got this thing that has come in five years from _ they've got this thing that has come in five years from now, _ they've got this thing that has come in five years from now, borrowing. in five years from now, borrowing needs _ in five years from now, borrowing needs to — in five years from now, borrowing needs to come _ in five years from now, borrowing needs to come back— in five years from now, borrowing needs to come back and - in five years from now, borrowing needs to come back and that - in five years from now, borrowing needs to come back and that is l in five years from now, borrowingi needs to come back and that is the straitjacket — needs to come back and that is the straitjacket we _ needs to come back and that is the straitjacket we are _ needs to come back and that is the straitjacket we are in. _ needs to come back and that is the straitjacket we are in. so _ needs to come back and that is the straitjacket we are in. so unless i straitjacket we are in. so unless she breaks _ straitjacket we are in. so unless she breaks away _ straitjacket we are in. so unless she breaks away from _ straitjacket we are in. so unless she breaks away from that, - straitjacket we are in. so unless she breaks away from that, and| straitjacket we are in. so unless i she breaks away from that, and all the conversations— she breaks away from that, and all the conversations i— she breaks away from that, and all the conversations i had _ she breaks away from that, and all the conversations i had with - the conversations i had with treasury _ the conversations i had with treasury people, _ the conversations i had with treasury people, they - the conversations i had with treasury people, they say, i the conversations i had with i treasury people, they say, no, the conversations i had with - treasury people, they say, no, that is absolutely — treasury people, they say, no, that is absolutely firm. _ treasury people, they say, no, that is absolutely firm. they _ treasury people, they say, no, that is absolutely firm. they might - is absolutely firm. they might tweaks — is absolutely firm. they might tweaks about _ is absolutely firm. they might tweaks about the _ is absolutely firm. they might tweaks about the definition i is absolutely firm. they might tweaks about the definition ofj tweaks about the definition of borrowing. _ tweaks about the definition of borrowing, but _ tweaks about the definition of borrowing, but i— tweaks about the definition of borrowing, but i don't- tweaks about the definition of borrowing, but i don't see - tweaks about the definition of| borrowing, but i don't see how tweaks about the definition of- borrowing, but i don't see how she can abandon — borrowing, but i don't see how she can abandon that. _ can abandon that. i can abandon that. i would _ can abandon that. i would agree. - can abandon that. i would agree. it i can abandon that. i i would agree. it is can abandon that. - i would agree. it is very can abandon that. _ i would agree. it is very difficult. she has— i would agree. it is very difficult. she has staked a lot of her

reputation on that. however, it also the fact— reputation on that. however, it also the fact keir— reputation on that. however, it also the fact keir starmer's big speech this week. — the fact keir starmer's big speech this week, where he said things will -et this week, where he said things will get worse _ this week, where he said things will get worse before they get better, the bit _ get worse before they get better, the bit in — get worse before they get better, the bit in that slogan that i worry about— the bit in that slogan that i worry about is— the bit in that slogan that i worry about is the second bit. no one, i think. _ about is the second bit. no one, i think, disagrees things will get worse. — think, disagrees things will get worse, but when will they get better? — worse, but when will they get better? in the budget, she will have to do— better? in the budget, she will have to do something, because it will be a lot of— to do something, because it will be a lot of pain. this is a neat way out of— a lot of pain. this is a neat way out of that— a lot of pain. this is a neat way out of that which does fall foul of the politics of it, but then, every possible — the politics of it, but then, every possible strategy does, doesn't it? so i possible strategy does, doesn't it? so i think— possible strategy does, doesn't it? so i think investment will be a major— so i think investment will be a major theme of the budget end of the government thereafter, and something like this. _ government thereafter, and something like this, which the vast majority of us _ like this, which the vast majority of us who— like this, which the vast majority of us who don't have documents like this, of us who don't have documents like this. might — of us who don't have documents like this, might not understand anyway, might— this, might not understand anyway, mightjust _ this, might not understand anyway, mightjust conceivably this, might not understand anyway, might just conceivably be the kind of thing _ might just conceivably be the kind of thing they do, notwithstanding the political hit. but of thing they do, notwithstanding the political hit.— the political hit. but it is how you do it in a way _ the political hit. but it is how you do it in a way that _ the political hit. but it is how you do it in a way that means - the political hit. but it is how you do it in a way that means you - the political hit. but it is how you i do it in a way that means you don't come off your rules, because you have set them out on the markets will like that. let's take a quick look at a few of the stories on the front pages. the daily telegraph, workers' rights

to demand four—day week. the guardian, starmer risks clash with pub firms over a plan for outdoor smoking ban. the daily mail, outrage as starmer removes maggie's put it. apparently he has removed a portrait of mrs thatcher from he has removed a portrait of mrs thatcherfrom herformer he has removed a portrait of mrs thatcher from her former study. he has removed a portrait of mrs thatcherfrom herformer study. —— thatcher from her former study. —— portrait. |. portrait. i, tommy robinson's plan to use sikhs, dues and hindus to turn people in uk against islam. and the fd, vance presses billionaire thiel to get off the sidelines and bankroll trump. and the daily express, has sir keir starmer the death knell of our pubs. i think we're out of time. i think we're out of time. i seem to remember it was gordon brown who christened that room the thatcher room. when i interviewed him, he said, it will be in the thatcher room. make sure you get to the thatcher room. they were very keen point that out. the express not happy about it. i'm sorry, the mail. thank you all very much. that's it from us. christian's here tomorrow. goodnight.