voice-over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. i'm at the home of one of the most famous photographers, to, to toscani. he is perhaps best known for his extraordinary advertising

campaigns, where he used images, provocative images of sexuality, illness and death to promote brands but also to get all of us to confront uncomfortable truths. he has combined glamour with a social conscience, but has he sometimes gone too far? oliviero toscani, welcome to hardtalk. and thank you for inviting me into your home. i must begin by asking how are you, because we know you have been struggling with illness. in italy, not so good. i belong to a generation that is forever young. to a generation that is forever ounu. ,

to a generation that is forever young-- and _ to a generation that is forever young.- and then - to a generation that is forever young. yes. and then it was like that. — young. yes. and then it was like that, realised _ young. yes. and then it was like that, realised before i got 80. it was working like... before. you got up in the morning and you are 80. you got up in the morning and you are 130-— you are 80. and suddenly you felt our you are 80. and suddenly you felt your age- _ you are 80. and suddenly you felt your age. yeah. _ you are 80. and suddenly you felt your age. yeah. let's - felt your age. yeah. let's beain felt your age. yeah. let's begin by _ felt your age. yeah. let's begin by going _ felt your age. yeah. let's begin by going back- felt your age. yeah. let's begin by going back in . felt your age. yeah. let's i begin by going back in time. when do you think, as a boy, as a man, when did —— as a young man, when did you first understand the power of photography? my understand the power of photography?— understand the power of -hotoara-h ? g ., ., photography? my father was a photographer- _ photography? my father was a photographer. for _ photography? my father was a photographer. for the - photography? my father was a photographer. for the core . photography? my father was a photographer. for the core "l photographer. for the core —— correa dell sera. the photographer. for the core -- correa dell sera.— correa dell sera. the big italian newspaper. - correa dell sera. the big italian newspaper. therel correa dell sera. the big - italian newspaper. there wasn't any television. _ italian newspaper. there wasn't any television. mussolini - italian newspaper. there wasn't any television. mussolini was i any television. mussolini was still alive. _ any television. mussolini was

still alive. yeah. _ any television. mussolini was still alive. yeah. they - any television. mussolini was still alive. yeah. they were l still alive. yeah. they were conditioned _ still alive. yeah. they were conditioned by _ still alive. yeah. they were conditioned by that. - still alive. yeah. they were conditioned by that. my - conditioned by that. my father... he used to send pictures. they would be censored. he was with a british photo agency. censored. he was with a british photo agency-— censored. he was with a british i photo agency-_ they photo agency. news agency. they ask him, photo agency. news agency. they ask him. in _ photo agency. news agency. they ask him, in order _ photo agency. news agency. they ask him, in order to _ photo agency. news agency. they ask him, in order to have - ask him, in order to have documents from italy, so he did a lot of pictures for them. did our a lot of pictures for them. did your father — a lot of pictures for them. did your father give you your first camera? ., your father give you your first camera? . .. ., your father give you your first camera? . .. . , camera? yeah. the camera, being around the — camera? yeah. the camera, being around the house. _ camera? yeah. the camera, being around the house. just _ around the house. just everywhere. _ around the house. just everywhere. yeah. - around the house. just| everywhere. yeah. you around the house. just - everywhere. yeah. you know, i have to tell _ everywhere. yeah. you know, i have to tell you _ everywhere. yeah. you know, i have to tell you that... - everywhere. yeah. you know, i

have to tell you that. .. i - everywhere. yeah. you know, i have to tell you that. .. i went l have to tell you that... i went to our school and ifinish in 1965. i also passed by the royal college of art for a semester. in royal college of art for a semester.— royal college of art for a i semester._ yes. royal college of art for a - semester._ yes. and semester. in london? yes. and then i realised _ semester. in london? yes. and then i realised that _ then i realised that photography was changing. there wasn't any more reportage, the magazines were closing. a lifetime... television was there. lifetime... television was there-- so - lifetime... television was there.- so i - lifetime... television was there.- so i said, i lifetime... television was | there.- so i said, we there. right. so i said, we have to — there. right. so i said, we have to do _ there. right. so i said, we have to do something - there. right. so i said, we| have to do something else. there. right. so i said, we - have to do something else. with photography. and in the meantime, they started to be interesting, the papers like vogue, and fashion magazine and design magazine.— design magazine. yes. and of course, design magazine. yes. and of course. this — design magazine. yes. and of course, this period _ design magazine. yes. and of course, this period is - design magazine. yes. and of course, this period is the - course, this period is the 19605, course, this period is the

1960s, the late 1960s, they call them the swinging 605. sure. call them the swinging 60s. sure. ~ . . call them the swinging 60s. sure. ~ , . . sure. when music, art, culture... _ sure. when music, art, culture... i— sure. when music, art, culture... i was - sure. when music, art, culture... i was there. l sure. when music, art, - culture... i was there. was changing — culture... i was there. was changing so _ culture... i was there. was changing so rapidly. - culture... i was there. was changing so rapidly. you i culture... i was there. was i changing so rapidly. you were part of that. it changing so rapidly. you were part of that-— part of that. it was a moment of euphoria- _ part of that. it was a moment of euphoria. new _ part of that. it was a moment | of euphoria. new possibilities. yeah. of euphoria. new possibilities. yeah- new _ of euphoria. new possibilities. yeah. new life, _ of euphoria. new possibilities. yeah. new life, new— of euphoria. new possibilities. yeah. new life, new vision. i we have a sense of future. but it strikes me, there was something different about you because although you were mixing with celebrities, mickjagger and all the most famous musicians, all of the fashion models in paris and london, you seemed to have had a sensibility that was not

seduced just by celebrity and fame. you wanted something else? for me, photography and media, it is not because i like black and white pictures, i am not an artist. i see photography as a media for political action. that's how i started to use it. also pictures of fashion and advertising. every picture is political. every one, even a postcard. i think at a young age

you were very political and i think it is fair to say you were of the left. you had strong opinions. and yet you entered the world of advertising, the most capitalistic form of communication. you are paid a lot of money by some of the biggest brands and businesses in the world. never advertised the products, i refused. no, never. let's talk about bennetton. you had a very long leadership with benetton. hejust called me. really? for decades you worked

with him, the very beginning of the relationship when they said, "we love your work, we want you to be our creative director,", did you say to them ok but i refuse to actually use photographs of your clothes, i wanted to do it different. did you say that to them? bennetton never spoke, we spoke... i never asked him for anything special. i always propose something and he said this of the right way to do it. the company always supported you? the company was my biggest enemy. all the managers hated me. who was your biggest supporter? just mr benetton himself? yes, very interesting, huh?

when i did propose, everything was shock, shocking. i told him, do you think young people are more in this sweater? you were in control. you could say i'm going to build you a campaign but i am not going to show a single piece of clothing. let's talk about some of the pictures. you would use deeply controversial images. you would address the issues of racial diversity. you would address issues connected to illnesses like hiv, aids, one very famous image is of a man desperately ill dying from hiv/aids. it is not a picture you took but you adapted a little bit.

you used it in a bennetton advertisement. to most people it is an image that is very sad. deeply depressing. these are not emotions that one associates with advertising. how does it work? how do you believe it works? that that helps? what is associated with advertising? big cars, glamour, success but that is not the world. this is life told to the public to make them see

, make them stupid like the advertising people are. your motivation was to make people look directly at the world as it is, at all of its problems? i realised so much money was invested and advertising — for what? you remember any big advertisements of the time? but you remember mine. everyone remembers yours. everyone who hated it. that's very true. how come? what is your answer to that? i did involve them in the something that were not so used to be. the pages in magazines used for advertising, for me it was information first of all. if you see something,

you won't buy it. you see something, you get an idea. you had particular targets you mocked with your messaging. one of your targets was the catholic church. basically religion generally. i well remember one of your big posters which featured a priest kissing a nun. you live in italy. you are italian, you know the nature of the church. that is why. i can speak about it. were you deliberately trying to provoke them? i don't find

provocation motivation. the art, if it does not provoke, has got no sense. big art always did provoke something. it provoked a reaction. it provoked a discussion. art has to provoke interest. some people may think to themslves, in the end he allowed himself to be used because in the end whatever your desire to send a political message on your advertising, the bottom line is you

were selling product for bennetton and were very successful. these ad campaigns are remembered even today. bennetton sold an awful lot of clothing thanks to you. do you believe they were using you or you were using them? i think i used them. in the end, yes. i did something that was not made before. luciano had the courage to do it. and before, they were all afraid to lose money. afraid they would not make enough income. we never spoke about money.

with luciano. never. do you ever think in your desire to confront the most difficult subjects and get people to think in a political way, do you think you went too far? i'm thinking for example of one particular advertisement, it was for another fashion business. i think it was in 2007 your big poster using the anorexic young woman and the title on the advertisement was "no anorexia." but the fact is that was an advertisement for a fashion business. there were a lot of girls that were anorexic. it upset a lot of

people who believed you were exploiting a human being and a vulnerable position. you cannot please everybody. if you please everybody, you please nobody. if everybody likes what you do then there is no interest. you have to be unpopular sometimes. that young woman died a couple of years after the advertisement. i wonder whether that made you feel in any way regret for having used her in that advertising campaign. i could have used another 20 girls like that. the last thing i wanted to be is that girl has a name,

now if i did that picture i would put a mask. would you? it is not the question of a name of a person. itjust takes a certain kind of humanity. the disaster of anorexia. as you reflect on this career and we talked a lot about advertising, do you regard yourself as an artist? i think i am a photographer, that i use photography to express what i think should be said. you once said, i read this in an interview, you gave many years ago, you said photography is powerful, sometimes it is more

powerful than armies. surely, your life, your commitment to sending messages with pictures says the opposite, because you sent these messages about racial diversity, about confronting illness and death with compassion. many human beings are not listening. you have not changed people's minds and behaviour. nowm for example, with the sickness, i had a lot of people who i don't remember who they are or i've never met and they thanked me for what i did. really. a lot. i read the emails, everything like that. i was very impressed by this. think about your own

country of italy. for all your messages about the importance of looking beyond people's skin colour, the country today is run by a government that is committed to a very tough policy on migration and immigrants. fascist government, totally. they would deny they are fascists. i call it fascist because it is fascism. do you feel deeply disappointed with italy and the way it has changed in your lifetime? of course, but it's not finished. i still hope for the future, i still hope it will be changing and i think there are possibilities to change. at the beginning of

the interview i asked you about your early years of photography and you talked about the 605 and the optimism and energy and possibilities for change. do you feel as optimistic and as open to the possibilities for change today? not in the same way but i am still thinking, hoping that tomorrow is better than today. that is it. but what to do? i am not one of those that crying over the destiny of you or your own country,

we have to be understanding. and we have to be there to learn what is going on. we have to learn, you have to answer certain things sometimes they're new, we're not prepared to deal with. i'm not afraid. in your entire career you have always looked directly at human beings as they are. you have been very honest in recent months about your own situation because doctors have told you your illness is terminal. they cannot cure you. life is terminal. because you have been so open

and honest with people, tell me how you are feeling today about looking with that steady eye, at death. i shouldn't be complaining because i had an incredible life for a long time. i was never sick or anything. everything came suddenly one day. one day i wasn't anymore forever young. i am not afraid, it is how it is. there are people who left much earlier than my age. i accept my destiny.

i must say, i was lucky enough, for not complaining, i had a good life. i travelled all over the world. i met interesting people. i had a really incredible life. if there was one image or couple of images you look back on that you took, that you captured that feel most important to you or express your feelings the best, what would they be? i never thought about it. probably the picture of the hands with the rice, i like take away, don't like... simple as possible.

not simple. complex but, simple but it's not simple. to make a complex picture. to make a picture for them to be able to take away, take away, and make a picture everyone will say i could have done it. yes, but you didn't. we have to end there but it has been a pleasure to talk to you, thank you very much. thank you. hello, there. thursday promises to be another unusually warm september day for large parts of the uk,

although in the north of scotland, it may not be quite as warm as it was on wednesday when aviemore got above 25 degrees celsius — some nine or ten degrees above the seasonal average. but notice — lake vyrnwy languished at 1a degrees because in those parts of mid wales we saw a bit more cloud lingering for a good part of the day. some of that cloud returning from the east as well, so england and wales seeing a pretty cloudy start, actually, in some places. but that cloud tending to retreat by the afternoon towards the east coast, some cloud rolling onto the coast of eastern scotland. elsewhere, though, some good spells of sunshine, just a very, very small chance of seeing a shower across southern counties of england. but it really is only a very small chance. now, where you're exposed to the breeze along the north sea, temperatures may only get to 17 or 18 degrees. compare that with 25 in parts of southeast england. and then through thursday night,

we do it all again, we bring more cloud back in from the east, may turn a little bit misty and murky in places. that cloud will hold the temperatures up — 15 degrees in london as we start friday morning, maybe 8 or 9 in aberdeen and glasgow, a little bit cooler where we start with clear skies overhead. but the focus of our weather does start to shift as we go through friday. we start to turn our eyes to the south with this developing area of low pressure, and that will start to bring some showers and some thunderstorms across parts of southern england, perhaps getting into the midlands, perhaps into the southern half of wales as we go on through the day. eastern scotland, northeast england holding on to a lot of mist and murk and low cloud. that will peg the temperatures back. conversely, western scotland and northern ireland should see plenty of sunshine. now, into saturday, those showers and thunderstorms in the south perhaps becoming more frequent, pushing a little bit further northwards. still rather cloudy for coasts of eastern scotland and northeast england, western scotland and northern ireland seeing plenty of sunshine.

but those temperatures generally down just a little bit by this stage. and then by sunday, our area of low pressure really makes its move, bringing showers or longer spells of rain, particularly across england and wales. the odd shower and some extra cloud in eastern scotland, but generally in the north of the uk it will stay largely dry.

live from london. this is bbc news. a second day of deadly explosions in lebanon — this time triggered in walkie—talkies used by hezbollah. the attack sparks new fears of rising regional tensions. the united states says it's involved in �*intensive diplomatic efforts' to stop a further escalation between israel and hezbollah. america's largest labour union — which usually backs the democrats — says it won't endorse either candidate in the us presidential election. and in the uk — calls for urgent maternity service reform, after two thirds of hospitals inspected — fail to meet safety standards.