robyn: if i can have everybody answer the same question, what do you do when you come to work every day? the answer to that is, because we are the custodians and we are responsible for the savings and pensions of real people, like my mom and dad and your mom and

dad, then we do a better job every day. francine: it is the world's largest listed hedge fund manager, and after 240 years in existence, man group has a woman in charge for the very first time. robyn grew was promoted last september. the high point of a 15-year career at the firm. the former barrister entered the world of finance three decades ago and never left. robyn: the speed of change, the impact, the global nature, the challenge of it just never stopped getting more and more infectious for me. francine: in this episode of "leaders with lacqua," i speak to robyn grew about diversity, purpose, and what the future holds in an ever-changing world. robyn grew, thank you so much for joining us on leaders. the world is a bit strange. there are so many poly-crises,

or whatever you want to call it. it is just difficult to get a handle of what comes next. robyn: yes, that would be the shortest answer i could give, yes. it is difficult. if this year has taught us anything, it is that prediction is not our strongest suit, perhaps, and that is perhaps not just in relation to markets, but in relation to these big geopolitical events that we are still living with. francine: but it is quite incredible to think we are in a better place. i feel like every six months there is the doom and gloom crew saying, we have to evaluate what happens next, and yet the economy holds. robyn: i think that's right. i think when we talk about it and have this conversation about higher for longer, which i still say out loud and cross my fingers in some way that may be i'm going to be entirely wrong, but higher for longer. i think where the nuance is in that message is that what we are unlikely to see 0%. we are probably unlikely to see 2%. we may see some 50 basis points

adjustments, for sure, but i think what we have been signaled clearly from central banks is they are not frightened of using policy to control inflation or to try and respond to inflation. and i think that is the messaging we should all kind of get used to. last 10 years, 0%, free money. next 10 years, higher for longer with that slight nuance in the way that i described. francine: and i imagine that 2024 could be difficult because of volatility. robyn: and dispersion. francine: yes, so it makes it harder actually to manage money. robyn: i think it does, think the effect that we saw because of the hiccups in the system with the banking crisis, that put a premium back into liquidity. so, what is your duration risk? what is your liquidity risk? how do you manage through these different economic cycles? and are you prepared, or are you ready for hedging?

which means that, you know, let's remember what that means. it means at times you are going to do well, and at times you are not going to do well with the entirety of your portfolio. that is ok. actively managing your portfolio for these different changing economic cycles or behaviors is what you are supposed to be doing. francine: does it change how you lead man group? robyn: it changes because of the way that we position the organization. we are an organization that is diverse. our capabilities are diverse. we have different engines doing different things, be it on the con side or fundamental discretionary side. we have products in the macro space, equities, long only, long/short, but we are seeing clients are interested in more customized solutions, solutions that answer the problem they have got or the challenge they have, rather than here is a buy that or nothing else, so it

changes the way you deliver it to an organization, changes the fact that value that your driving towards is not just about, here is a product, but, here is a solution. francine: what does it mean in terms of how you're focusing your energy on in 2024? you want to be in the private credit space, but hiring is something you need to think of carefully. robyn: we don't make widgets. we have highly talented individuals who are focused on being the very best they can be in the workplace, and delivering what they do. and that can be alpha in our engines, or operations, or in our legal department. it is about all on talent, so hiring the best people, retaining, keeping those people, giving them opportunity, giving them a space where they can be

the very best they can be. it is incredibly important. so, it is tech, it is talent, it is vision, about knowing that when people come to work every day, every single person at man group adds value and is valued. that is important. it is that moment, if i can have everybody answer same question, what do you do when you come to work every day? in the answer is, because we are the custodians and responsible for the savings and pensions of real people, like my mom and dad and your mom and dad, then we do a better job every day. francine: so how do you hire? again, there is a war on talent, or there is a battle to get the very best. so, what do they want? robyn: they want -- so, it depends. i think that is the one size does not fit all thing. who doesn't want to be around smart people? number one. who doesn't want to be in a place that values your input? that doesn't seek to be better today than it was just a day and

better tomorrow than it is today? who doesn't want to be around a place that is actually interested in you as a person and interested in being capable of making you better? so, where do we go? we go abroad. we go wide. we look for difference, we look for energy and excitement. that person who is able to get energized. francine: you don't always hear that from a big finance chief executive. robyn: ok. francine: is there a perception problem for finance? robyn: i don't think finance has done as good a job as we might in explaining the value we bring to society more generally. i don't cure cancer. that's not what i do. i wish i could. i wish i was that smart and capable to do that. but what we do is protect and enrich the savings and pensions of people, people who have worked incredibly hard all of their lives and diligently put their money aside in their 401(k) or wherever it may be, and we are entrusted with that, and we can give them, if we do our job well, financial security. we can provide something that

enables legacy investing, it enables access to health care, to education, to a roof over your head, to pay the bills, all those things. that is a pretty important thing to do. francine: it is amazing, you seem to be filled with a big sense of purpose, which you do not often get from hedge fund managers. robyn: i have a big sense of purpose. i run a firm that has a big sense of purpose and i think that energy is something we should put to work. when i sit down with big allocators and we talk about what it is we are both trying to do, it is the same. i think the day we forget that, and the day i think about our numbers in the institutional size numbers we all talk about, we lose a bit of that sense of what we are here to do properly. francine: coming up, robyn grew on adapting to change in an uncertain future. robyn: i'm not good at predicting what the next year or

the next five years are going to be. what we need to do is be flexible, is to understand and be dynamic. to think about the impact of market and changes.

j.p. morgan wealth management knows it's easy to get lost in investment research. get help with j.p morgan personal advisors. hey, david! ready to get started? work with advisors who create a plan with you, and help you find the right investments. so great getting to know you, let's take a look at your new investment plan. ok, great! this should have you moving in the right direction. thanks jen. get ongoing advice; and manage your investments in the chase mobile app. when you automate sales tax with avalara, you don't have to worry about things like changing tax rates or filing returns.

avalarahhh ahhh francine: from renewed geopolitical risks, to climate change, interest rates, and a different working reality, the world of finance is also adapting to change. i continue the conversation with man group chief executive robyn grew. do you worry about what the future economic footprint looks like for the world? robyn: so our job is to say, how do we think about what could happen? how do you stress your portfolio? how do you think about what your

outcomes are today? people drawing their pensions today versus drawing their pensions 50 years from now? man group is 240 years old. we match the duration of our clients that are not thinking about just returns for one year from now, but are trying to think about what they're planning for 30 years from now. we are not good at predicting. i am not good at predicting what the next year or the next five years will be. what we need to do is be flexible, to understand and be dynamic, and to think about the impact of markets and changes. francine: are you more worried about geopolitics or market functioning? robyn: i think the fact that we've now changed geopolitics to geoeconomics, is something of an impact point. as we think about what happened when russia invaded ukraine, and the impact on our fossil fuel pricing or you think about the worries and concerns around supply chains post-covid and the fact these buffers when you think about corporate real estate and the refinancing it is inevitable -- it is not a 30 year mortgage. these are things coming up for refinance within the next three,

four, five years. that is a lot of money being put to work. and we are in an environment where we look out onto the city, office buildings are in a different place and have a different level of occupancy than we have seen before. so these are big changes in geoeconomics and things that we have to take into consideration. francine: what do you worry about the most? do you have a ranking or it is almost one and the same? it is just this huge transformational change? robyn: it is a huge transformational change. i think we will see credit markets playing a role. i think that is a long term thing. i think you will see lending tightening, a need for financing, but it is not all things are created equal. i am a big proponent of active management. i am a big proponent of credit. but not every active manager, not every credit expert is going to be able to deliver in these environments. there is expertise and skill needed. how do i think about prioritization? i think about priorities in

terms of capabilities. i think about being as skilled as we can be in data, in analytics, in tech, in credit, in multiple asset classes, and then being able to pivot those. i think that is where i think about things, but do i think about that is the number one thing i'm focusing on? i don't have the luxury of that. i think we have to think about all these things. francine: are you looking at for acquisitions to move into certain spaces? robyn: we have always said we will grow the firm organically and look for acquisitions to increase our capability on content for clients. i think what is interesting is we completed our acquisition with private credit management in the u.s., in middle markets. i think what is interesting is the multiples look more interesting. we have been talking about consolidation, right? we have been talking about consolidation since the gfc. this is one of those points i want to laugh about in a few years time from now, but i actually think as we look at the barriers to entry in this space,

if we look about the costs of running our businesses, the scale we need to operate at, and i think the multiples we are starting to see coming down, i think this could be an interesting time for consolidation. francine: but why has it been a long time coming? is it regulation, or was there no appetite? robyn: i think when cash is free, it softens that. i think the moment where people need to deploy at scale in liquid markets has been something that has softened. if you look at trends, the trend has been impassive, it has been in private equity. if you think about the assets that no longer sit in the public domain, that has been our theme over the last 10 years. i think when private equity does not have quite as much cash, when that raising is harder, when lending is harder, these

opportunities for niche spaces and expertise to come about, and they want scale. they need to be able to operate at scale, and having an organization that can deliver the amount of scale we put in play, the bit that is perhaps less sexy and exciting, but that infrastructure, the ability to take businesses and grow them, that is what we do. francine: what do you think of the city of london? will it lose a bit of luster? there is a lot it can offer. where do you see it in five years? robyn: you are talking to a u.k.-listed ceo. i could not be more interested. i think we have held such an extraordinary position in financial markets and generally, so anything we can do to keep that shine i think is important. but competition is high. and we should not, in the way we should in our firms, sit on our hands and think all our history will count for long if we don't

keep running. so, i am a great believer that drive and we continue to drive. there is such a lot of innovation, creativity, and growth here. there is such a lot of expertise that sits on the small shores. so, anything we can do to keep that alive and keep it at its top game, i am all for. but we operate as a global organization and i will go where there is strong capability to invest, where the markets are deeper, where the clients need us to be, and where we can find opportunity. and i'm going to continue to look for that. but i am a u.k.-listed ceo that wants this to be great too. francine: next, robyn grew on being a female leader in an industry traditionally dominated by men. robyn: i'm hopeful we are going to see a better reflection of difference at the top of every organization, be it financial organization, be it financial services or broader than that. wealth-changing question -- are you keeping as much of your investment gains as possible?

high taxes can erode returns quickly, so you need a tax-optimized portfolio. at creative planning, our money managers and specialists work together to make sure your portfolio and wealth are managed in a tax-efficient manner. it's what you keep that really matters. why not give your wealth a second look? book your free meeting today at creativeplanning.com. creative planning -- a richer way to wealth.

francine: women make up less than a quarter of employees at the thousands of hedge funds and other alternative investment firms globally. they are even more of a minority in senior positions. so when man group appointed an all-female leadership team, it marked a massive shift for the company and a milestone in the industry. i continue the conversation with robyn grew. robyn, 240 years old, man group is. robyn: yes, not me.

francine: you are the first female chief executive of an institution 240 years old. robyn: yes. francine: is it -- should it have happened earlier? are you optimistic about the future for females in finance? robyn: i am hopeful that we are going to see a better reflection of difference at the top of every organization, be it financial services or broader than that. has it been a long time coming? i can't help but say, listen, it would be terrific to have seen more female ceos before me. i hope we are going to see a lot after me. the difference is important, and i think anything that enables us to put the most talented people at the top of organizations, and lead those organizations with enthusiasm and capability is what we are after. so, i am hopeful that i am knocking down some doors, barriers, ceilings. francine: the first time someone meets you, it is, like, the

infectious energy people notice. is that how you lead? robyn: yes. it is one of those things. i have been accused of being many things over my time, but that sort of slight duracell bunny, ever-ready battery, just keep it going, i am a bit that. i have enthusiasm for what we do and passion for what we do. it is, sometimes, like, i am a big person in the room, but it is something that i think is incredibly important. you don't do this job 98%. you do this job -- this is where mathematicians hate me, when i say anything larger than 100%. but it is 100%. francine: were you always like that? is it just natural? robyn: yes, and it is what has forged my career. that willingness and excitement to learn and be part of fixing things, doing things better, has been somewhat of a hallmark.

i have a ridiculous enjoyment for learning and doing things. you know, i walk into any organization, any of our offices, and in the short journey, thankfully, in london you have from the zero to the fifth floor, if there's somebody in the elevator with me, i'm asking 1000 questions. they can't wait to get out by the end of it in some ways. but it is interesting what is going on and what is happening. it is an interest in people. fundamentally, driven by the interested in the people i work with and the people who we are here to work for. robyn: so you started as a criminal barrister? robyn: i did. robyn: and then went into finance three decades ago? robyn: something like that. francine: what made you switch? robyn: i love being an advocate, and perhaps i think i'm still an advocate in many ways. i was in the criminal and civil bar, and i said i would do this

commerce thing, i thought to myself, and i will go back and become a commercial barrister. and it sucked me in and i never went back. the speed of change, the impact, the global nature, the challenge of it just never stopped getting more and more infectious for me, and so that legal training, has it been useful? yes. has the advocacy thing, perhaps, been more useful? probably. but it has been just the best journey. francine: do you have bad days, and if you do, who do you call? do you have a mentor? robyn: ghostbusters. [laughter] if i have a bad day, i have always been a half-full kind of person. every belief i have is that you make the best out of those tough days. of course there are tough days. of course there are days when i -- you have a challenge in front of you where your performance is not great, or where i feel like we could've done a better job. those are moments where you have got to move forward, you have to take the next step forward. and that is what i do. i think it is resilience.

i think it is part and parcel of, perhaps, my makeup, is to be resilient. who do i turn to? i turn to friends and family, and i take a break. i take a breather. although normally not a very long of a breather, because i get too excited by other things. i fill my life with the things that are really positive around me. i have a great family around me. i have an extraordinary wife, son, parents, and friends, and i am enriched by that. and so, that enables me to take the next step. francine: do you think there's a difference being a leader in 2024 to what it was like in even 2010? even just leadership or executive jobs need to come with a sense of purpose and more morally leading? robyn: i think that i don't know a different way of doing it then the way i do it, and that is with a sense of purpose, for sure. when you speak and you are in charge of an organization, i think it is incumbent upon

leaders to be enthused and to be passionate and be engaged. i think when times are tough, when things are tricky in the world, i think it is important that you know that, and that you acknowledge that in your organizations. and we have had some tough times in the world. beyond markets, in the world, for people to live their lives. we run global organizations with people who come from places that are now in war zones, or too close to borders where there are war zones. where the challenges have been very real post-covid, or where the issues are being felt materially in politics. and not to acknowledge that, i

think, feels inauthentic. francine: when you are in charge of a big organization, it is tough being close to your employees. robyn: yes. francine: how do you do that? robyn: it is about communication, it is about being available and transparent. it is about setting your stall out. who are we? what are we here to do? and how will we do that? how do we do that the best we can? my view is you do it by creating extraordinary and exceptional teams that have a focus, and that understand the humanity of that. and that is important. to do that you need different people. because people come with different backgrounds and different flavors of their experience of life. it is not an easy thing to do, it is just a thing we should do. francine: it is tough employing people who will say no to you. robyn: yes. francine: how much do you think of that? people will say, this is not a great idea? robyn: i think it is critical.

if i am going to have people around me, their excellence needs to be something i hear. it is less likely -- my executive team might get cross hearing me say this, but it is really not the most likely pool of people, from which the next brilliant idea is going to sprout and germinate. it is going to be levels and other people within the firm. we need to hear that, and it is important i am seen as capable of listening and changing my position. there are times when i'm going to be less willing to change my position, but having somebody who is going to come from any part of your organization to say, hey, i feel this way about this issue and i don't think i am being heard, is important. francine: where is robyn grew in five years? robyn: still duracell bunny-ing, the best answer to every battery life, but perhaps on a renewable, rechargeable basis. so where am i? i hope i'm still leading man group. i hope i'm looking back on the last five years and thinking how

i can do it even better. i hope driving things with the same passion and enthusiasm, and i hope with the same set of brilliant people around me. francine: thank you so much. robyn: thank you for having me.

jon: joining us now is daniel levy, the chairman of tottenham